Speaker 1: Spoiler alert.
Speaker 2: This episode contains spoilers for the season so far and
Speaker 2: also episode five, which at the point of recording was
Speaker 2: the newest episode that had been released and that we
Speaker 2: have seen, so we have not yet seen episode six,
Speaker 2: even though that is out now.
Speaker 3: Hello, it was Jason Eccepcion and I'm Rosie Knight, and
Speaker 3: welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where we
Speaker 3: dive deep to your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.
Speaker 3: Coming from our podcast where we're bringing you three episodes
Speaker 3: a week and we're finally doing it.
Speaker 1: You are driving you to Severance.
Speaker 2: And now it's happening sun Server Run. Yes, the people
Speaker 2: want Severance, so here we are severancing it Up and
Speaker 2: Jason are luckily not severed yet. We still know the
Speaker 2: difference between the real life and the pod, but it's
Speaker 2: getting stranger as twenty twenty five goes on. So in
Speaker 2: today's episode in the Airlock, we will be recapping the
Speaker 2: most recent episode of Severance, episode five, and throughout the
Speaker 2: show we'll be talking about the impact and our fandom
Speaker 2: of the series so far. Jason has a little delightful
Speaker 2: omnibus for us about the King among Commoner's Trope, which
Speaker 2: is really exciting.
Speaker 1: And then we're gonna explore.
Speaker 2: Our favorite fan theories and some of them are pretty wild. Guys,
Speaker 2: We're going to debate ces is it robots? Is it?
Speaker 1: None of the above?
Speaker 2: We'll see and remember we are hosting our very first
Speaker 2: book club. We will be covering Dead Evil Born Again,
Speaker 2: the classic comic arc by Frank Miller and David Magicelli,
Speaker 2: and we will be posting that episode on Tuesday, February
Speaker 2: twenty fifth.
Speaker 1: You still have three days to read the comment up.
Speaker 3: Next, the Airlock Okay Severance Season two, episode five, Trojan Horse.
Speaker 3: We open in the wake of the disastrous, truly disastrous
Speaker 3: ortbo Outbuit Retreat team building occurrence, and it's revealed that
Speaker 3: Helly was actually Helena Egan spying on the Innies and
Speaker 3: the retreat that featured the removal of Irving's Glasgow Block,
Speaker 3: resulting in his essential execution I Think I Love You.
Speaker 3: We are somewhere inside lumin We see a worker take
Speaker 3: possession of a tray of dental tools and then board
Speaker 3: the mysterious elevator which goes we don't know where, but
Speaker 3: I would imagine we're gonna find out soon. Audie Mark
Speaker 3: is at home talking to his sister Devin on the phone,
Speaker 3: while taking a tray of strange pills and drinking a
Speaker 3: vial of stuff that looks scared early like the jars
Speaker 3: from Don't Breed There like Little fALS.
Speaker 2: Very reference that, but absolutely true. You don't want to
Speaker 2: be drinking that stuff. I do feel like this episode
Speaker 2: is bearing us even more towards kind of the genre,
Speaker 2: the horror, the weirdness, because the fental trays, the strange files,
Speaker 2: We're really getting into some creepy stuff right now.
Speaker 3: Should also note that weird food is a theme in
Speaker 3: this show. They're always eating like strange like in this
Speaker 3: episode they eat like watermelon only at a party and
Speaker 3: drink water and take strange pills. All of this is
Speaker 3: very strange anyway. Mark tells Devin that apparently at the
Speaker 3: or Bow his any Like took a spill, but otherwise
Speaker 3: it's not a big deal. He continues to be unable
Speaker 3: to burn messages into his eyeballs to send messages to
Speaker 3: his any and then Recabi comes over actually to check
Speaker 3: on him in the wake of the reintegration procedure that
Speaker 3: he underwent. Nothing's really happening with that yet, Helena meets
Speaker 3: with mister Drummond and Natalie and to talk about the
Speaker 3: Calaminous Orbo. Dad would apparently be so troubled by the
Speaker 3: events of the Orbo that he is being kept in
Speaker 3: the dark about it, according to mister Drummond. And since
Speaker 3: Mark is past eighty percent completion on whatever the Cold
Speaker 3: Harbor project is, Helly's going to have to re emerge
Speaker 3: back inside. No, she's going to have to go back
Speaker 3: as Helly, not Helena, in order to keep Mark productive somehow,
Speaker 3: because Mark is apparently crucial to this project, and which
Speaker 3: is important information that we've kind of been getting beforehand.
Speaker 3: And we also get the important I think something important
Speaker 3: in the content of other stuff that happens in the scene.
Speaker 3: We'll talk about it. Also in the omnibus, we get
Speaker 3: this moment where Helena refers to the innies as basically animals.
Speaker 3: They're less than people. They're not people, they're animals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is harsh, harsh, but also telling. Okay, I
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question about Helly Helena.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I saw a great video by I believe
Speaker 2: it was my fang girl Frankie, just kind of talking
Speaker 2: about like how even though Helena is you know, very
Speaker 2: very complicit, very evil talking in this really harsh language, honestly,
Speaker 2: like can you blame her for like not wanting to
Speaker 2: go back as Helly? And every time Helly wakes up,
Speaker 2: she's like being strangled, being drowned, Like listen, it's definitely
Speaker 2: an ale muged as a very interesting and complex character
Speaker 2: in this show, which I wasn't expecting post the reveal.
Speaker 3: What's interesting about this show, in contrast to many other
Speaker 3: Miss Your Box shows, and I would include lost in this,
Speaker 3: is that the mystery mechanic itself is actually fascinating to
Speaker 3: think about, Like if you were severed, like if you
Speaker 3: were hell Helena not Helen Helena, you'd be like, yeah,
Speaker 3: fucking Helly's not a person, what do you kidding?
Speaker 2: I'm me.
Speaker 3: That other me that's just inside is just like a fragment,
Speaker 3: like kill them. Yeah, it's like a racism if it's necessary,
Speaker 3: Like why are we even talking about this? I'm me?
Speaker 3: And then when that fragment of me gone, I can
Speaker 3: continue to live my life as normal, like why are
Speaker 3: we even discussing this? So it is quite interesting. Back
Speaker 3: inside Helly not Helena, actual Helly gets her first look
Speaker 3: at Miss Wang and is like, what the fuck? And
Speaker 3: at a meeting with Milkchick, we see that none of
Speaker 3: the MDR crew is getting any of the info that
Speaker 3: they need. After the ORPO, Helly learns that she's been
Speaker 3: Helena for a while and that nobody knew the difference,
Speaker 3: and she's so confused and shaken by this. Dylan wants
Speaker 3: to know where Irving is. Apparently on an elongated cruise voyage.
Speaker 3: His audi rather is an elongated cruise voyage and any
Speaker 3: Irving is never to return. But Dylan wants more information.
Speaker 3: He's not getting it, and Mark is now paranoid because
Speaker 3: he is like, Helly telling the truth? Now, is she
Speaker 3: hit her? Is she? What is happening?
Speaker 1: I have to say?
Speaker 3: And also they had sex?
Speaker 1: Yeah, ye was that exactly? And also I'm like, I
Speaker 1: do feel like, come on, guys.
Speaker 2: From the beginning of watching this season, all of us
Speaker 2: were like, maybe that's a light.
Speaker 3: Now like I feel like, you know, sometimes, it was
Speaker 3: a great theory, it was a very common theory. It
Speaker 3: was cool to see it paid off, and.
Speaker 2: I feel like it makes having us be in on
Speaker 2: it in that kind of sense of kind of dramatic
Speaker 2: irony to then be like yelling at the screen like Mark,
Speaker 2: that is not Helly, that is not Helly, and then
Speaker 2: have it pay off, and it makes it hard because
Speaker 2: now well it makes it good to watch because now
Speaker 2: you're on Helly's side. You're like, how did you not
Speaker 2: really lies? If you're supposedly so? You know, together after
Speaker 2: everything that happened with the OTC.
Speaker 3: Something interesting about the Helly about Helena referring to the
Speaker 3: innis as animals. Helly. Of course the inny Helly is
Speaker 3: in love with Mark. I think that's fair to say, right,
Speaker 3: they feel very warmly for each other. I think what's
Speaker 3: interesting is in episode two, mil Chick, when he's trying
Speaker 3: to get Mark to come back, is like, you're any
Speaker 3: Mark has found love and Mark's like, what it's like? Yeah,
Speaker 3: And though he can't he doesn't tell him anything about it.
Speaker 3: He's like, and those warm feelings will find their way
Speaker 3: to you. You just have to find time for that
Speaker 3: to happen. I thought that was really interesting. That's the
Speaker 3: first time we've really ever heard about the concept or
Speaker 3: the idea that your innies, life and emotions and emotional
Speaker 3: well being and mental health can like affect your the
Speaker 3: audie in any kind of way, and I think I
Speaker 3: don't know, because I got to say, Helena kind of
Speaker 3: contradicts that idea because she hates the innies.
Speaker 2: That's one of the greatest questions of this show because
Speaker 2: with Irving there was like his dreams and whether that
Speaker 2: was him communicating to himself or whether that was his
Speaker 2: Outy's feelings coming in, So there is this kind of
Speaker 2: potential spillover.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Helly is not Helly, Helena.
Speaker 2: Not feeling that that's not something she and also obviously
Speaker 2: trying to get Mark to go back in. He is
Speaker 2: clearly here the kind of like Luke Skywalker esque.
Speaker 1: They need him to do whatever that is.
Speaker 3: They need him for some some reason.
Speaker 4: Good.
Speaker 3: He's good at MDR and he's crucial to this very
Speaker 3: very very humanity shaking. Apparently, Project call the Fucking Milchik
Speaker 3: tries to chill everybody out by telling them the story
Speaker 3: of King Charles of Sweden and his grax Schupin. I
Speaker 3: am sorry to all the Swedish folks. If greg Schupin
Speaker 3: being like a kind of uh like robe or a
Speaker 3: cowl that commoners were and he would go amongst the people,
Speaker 3: as many have noted, like basically like ancient undercover box
Speaker 3: to learn what the vibe on the street was in
Speaker 3: order that he could better rule in their with their
Speaker 3: well being in mind, and basically suggesting, well, that's what
Speaker 3: Helena was doing. You know, the Egan family the board
Speaker 3: or in the wake of the uprising from season one,
Speaker 3: they're really interested in the quality of life that the
Speaker 3: Innies have, and Helena was just trying to cut through
Speaker 3: the bureaucras he cut through the red tape and you know,
Speaker 3: learn the truth about what's going on down here in Lumen.
Speaker 3: And this story satisfies no one will have more on
Speaker 3: the king amongst the commoner's trope in the I don't
Speaker 3: know this. Back in MDR. The crew, who is it
Speaker 3: just immediate, It was interesting to watch them like immediately
Speaker 3: fall back into like a refining groove. They see that
Speaker 3: they go to their workstations, and though they are all
Speaker 3: in like different headspaces, and Dylan is super mad at
Speaker 3: Mark and Helly is like it's trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what Mark's thinking. They build, they all kind of fall
Speaker 3: in line and begin working Milchick and this is interesting, Rosie.
Speaker 3: I think that one of the things that is definitely
Speaker 3: happening is the board through Miltchick is trying to sew
Speaker 3: is trying to rip piece the MDR crew apart, and
Speaker 3: so paranoia and he they're two connected. He says, like
Speaker 3: Dylan is complaining, you know, about everything, and Miltchick and
Speaker 3: basically makes a sharp remark about Helena, and Miltchik says,
Speaker 3: you know, you got to watch what you say or
Speaker 3: your special privileges might get provoked. And this you could
Speaker 3: see that Mark certainly notices this is special privileges. What
Speaker 3: does that mean? Dylan wants and Miltchick agrees to provide
Speaker 3: a brief because Mark wants it very brief, and I'm
Speaker 3: sure Miltchick wanted that also a very brief funeral to
Speaker 3: memorialize Irving. And this is the first time we see
Speaker 3: that Mark has this weird nagging cough. What is this
Speaker 3: nagging cost? What is when did this happen? I know,
Speaker 3: I'm very interested.
Speaker 2: In this because I think that the notion of what
Speaker 2: the innies really are, or who the innies really are,
Speaker 2: or how the nis exist. As soon as you notice
Speaker 2: something a little bit more human, like a cough or something,
Speaker 2: you start to wonder, like, what is that?
Speaker 1: Is it? You know, is this going to be some
Speaker 1: kind of you know.
Speaker 2: Clone Wars style story about Mark and he's a clone
Speaker 2: and the clone is slowly dying or becoming ill or aging, Like,
Speaker 2: I'm just so interested to see web this goes.
Speaker 3: Helly pulls Mark aside and is like are you good?
Speaker 3: And Marcus you know, kind of stand offish, and then
Speaker 3: Helly is like, could you tell it was? What was
Speaker 3: she like? What was Helena like? And he's like, she
Speaker 3: was like you, I don't know, Like I couldn't tell
Speaker 3: the difference.
Speaker 1: Bro, don't admit it. Don't admit He's very, very freaked out.
Speaker 3: And of course he does not mention that they had sex.
Speaker 3: Miss Hwang meanwhile, and then here we get some more
Speaker 3: perspective on how, at least how middle management views isn't
Speaker 3: certainly we know the feelings of Helena and people above
Speaker 3: middle management, but she is concerned that the funeral will
Speaker 3: further personify the innies, make them feel like full people.
Speaker 3: And then she flexes on Milchick and lets him know
Speaker 3: that she knows that his performance review is coming up.
Speaker 3: She's like, oh, so you've got your first performance review,
Speaker 3: and he is annoyed at this. At the funeral, Dylan
Speaker 3: does eulogy. Miltchik, I think describes it fairly as a
Speaker 3: little characteristically sharp but also a little uncharacteristically sweet. Wang
Speaker 3: comes in with a cart that features Irving's head carved
Speaker 3: out of a Malaysian black watermelon, and then she sets
Speaker 3: up her terremin and like eager to begin playing her theremin,
Speaker 3: but Miltchik flexes back on her by basically canceling her
Speaker 3: musical performance, and she's very by this. Mark is in
Speaker 3: asshole mode. He is like five minutes at the funeral.
Speaker 3: He's ready to go, He's ready to go back to work.
Speaker 3: Dylan tells Helly because now he's mad at Mark that hey,
Speaker 3: did you know that Mark was married to who oh
Speaker 3: miss Casey? That's right? What Helly is like mind blown
Speaker 3: by this. Mark then strongly rebuffs Helly and basically says, like,
Speaker 3: what's the U and all this plotting and planning we're
Speaker 3: doing now in here when clearly everyone a rate against us,
Speaker 3: including our audies, are much much smarter than us, and
Speaker 3: they have the benefit of a more total picture of
Speaker 3: what's going on. And by the way, I don't even
Speaker 3: know if you're Helena or well who the fuck you are,
Speaker 3: and Helly's like, well, you have to trust me and
Speaker 3: stop being an asshole please. He is really on asshole,
Speaker 3: He's I mean, I get it because I'm so shaken
Speaker 3: right now. Natalie takes Milchick up to his review Milchick
Speaker 3: and I thought was and this is one of those moments.
Speaker 3: You know, people have been asking us cover the cover
Speaker 3: the show, and I've always like been like, the show's good,
Speaker 3: I'm very interested in it. I thought the finale of
Speaker 3: season one was like wow, Thick and like, this is
Speaker 3: one of the scenes where man, the show continues to deepen,
Speaker 3: and it really interesting. Way is Milchick tries to connect
Speaker 3: with over the fact that, hey, Natalie, you and I
Speaker 3: are basically the only two black lumen employed in management
Speaker 3: or higher How did you feel when you received the
Speaker 3: cure paintings with you know, Papa Egan colored as a
Speaker 3: black person, and Natalie is not interested in engaging in
Speaker 3: this conversation, and this is a I was listening to
Speaker 3: the official pod and Trammel, the actor who plays Milchick,
Speaker 3: talked about asking, like Ben and Dan Erickson, does Milchick
Speaker 3: know he's black? You know, because the amount of severing
Speaker 3: of the management of the Milchick and others is like
Speaker 3: pretty unclear. But as we've seen from the Innies, while
Speaker 3: they maintain something like the base personality of their audies,
Speaker 3: they have very little other information to grasp and like
Speaker 3: no context for a lot of stuff. They're very naive.
Speaker 3: It's like, why a lot of this Like yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Mean when Helly fust be going back to season one,
Speaker 2: the first episode, she seems to be the first person
Speaker 2: who's been in there who's like, what the fuck is
Speaker 2: going on? Like everyone else kind of naively just turns
Speaker 2: up to work and does that thing and says, well,
Speaker 2: we've got out.
Speaker 1: He's in Inni's and hell He's like, no, this is terrible.
Speaker 1: And that's before that.
Speaker 2: There just isn't really even that kind of acceptance that
Speaker 2: being trapped in work for your entire life is.
Speaker 1: Messed up, you know, let alone connections with the actual
Speaker 1: outside world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the like the orp Bow outdoor Retreat Team,
Speaker 3: billion Currents and the other acronyms that like appear in
Speaker 3: the show that feel like really unwieldy. I've been thinking
Speaker 3: about it, and it makes sense from the perspective of
Speaker 3: if you're an any and you don't know what stuff is.
Speaker 3: You don't know the meaning of things. You would need
Speaker 3: these hilariously like long titles of things in order to
Speaker 3: try and give you some kind of base context for
Speaker 3: what you're taking part in. Dylan, meanwhile, back in the
Speaker 3: funeral room, is lost in thought and he remembers Irving's
Speaker 3: final word to him before the Glasgow block was removed
Speaker 3: and he was essentially killed. Hang in there, and he
Speaker 3: sees in the room the breakroom a poster with the
Speaker 3: same words, and behind the poster is a note with
Speaker 3: a sketch of the mysterious elevator and on the other
Speaker 3: side directions to the elevator in the hilariously labyrinthine halways,
Speaker 3: like how to navigate them. Mister Drummond runs the review,
Speaker 3: which is going to take a long time, over four hours,
Speaker 3: certainly to the point that like, here's a menu and
Speaker 3: we're going to order food milk chick. On the surface,
Speaker 3: appears to be doing pretty good. He received the cure paintings.
Speaker 3: He received the cure paintings gracefully, says the report, which
Speaker 3: I think suggests that the Egans understand that these are
Speaker 3: offensive in some way and that they're purposefully offensive, like
Speaker 3: we're trying to offend you. But will you just respec Yeah,
Speaker 3: will you just will you just respond gracefully if we
Speaker 3: offend you, then there's the issue with the paper He
Speaker 3: never misses work. This is all the positives and he is.
Speaker 3: His blood tests show that he's not like smoking dope. However,
Speaker 3: there is one dinah right, he's using too many big words.
Speaker 3: Guilty is charged. He uses colloquial in his in his
Speaker 3: attempted retort, he is not putting the paper clips on
Speaker 3: the reports correctly. And most seriously, his management approach appears
Speaker 3: to be a fiasco in the making. And we need
Speaker 3: only look at the recent orpo Now this can't go on,
Speaker 3: Drummond says, because like Mark is at eighty five percent
Speaker 3: on Cold Harbor, and we got to keep you know,
Speaker 3: Cold Harbor, he says, is going to be like one
Speaker 3: of the greatest breakthroughs in the history of mankind, which
Speaker 3: is okay, like that's pretty big, stakes huge, Yes, sounds
Speaker 3: pretty huge. So Miltchig is like, listen, I get it.
Speaker 3: I'm going to crack the whip from here on out
Speaker 3: no more, mister Nyska. We see that after the funeral,
Speaker 3: Audi Mark, and after his conversation with Helly, maybe his
Speaker 3: the reintegration process is beginning to kick in, because there's
Speaker 3: a moment where you see that maybe something happens and
Speaker 3: his AUDI broke through maybe for a second. He goes
Speaker 3: to the elevator. He's leaving work six minutes early, as
Speaker 3: Milchik says. Milchick then invades his personal space and asks,
Speaker 3: what's up? Why are you leaving? And how did you
Speaker 3: like the funeral? Mark is in full like wise ass
Speaker 3: student like talking back to the teacher.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to see mak in this episode, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm intrigued.
Speaker 3: Melchick then gets even like steps even further into his
Speaker 3: personal space and is like, did you tell Helly that
Speaker 3: you fucked her? Audi? Mark has absolutely nothing to.
Speaker 1: Say, probably because he could.
Speaker 3: Be the and this is the first time he's learning
Speaker 3: of this. But it's unclear. It's not clear it's that,
Speaker 3: but I think unclear.
Speaker 1: That's how they want you to feel. They want you
Speaker 1: to not know.
Speaker 2: And I think that the introduction of Helena, we knew
Speaker 2: it from the end of this season one who Helena was,
Speaker 2: but the introduction of the idea and how he can
Speaker 2: make it into Lumen, adds like an extra layer of
Speaker 2: paranoia and strangeness and will I'm sure kind of lead
Speaker 2: to whatever the big reveal is.
Speaker 3: At the end of this season, he walks out of
Speaker 3: the building and Helena is in the lobby kind of
Speaker 3: watching him, unbeknownst to him, watching him leave. Devin is
Speaker 3: dealing with her husband's now Lumen sponsored.
Speaker 1: Writing crowd could you do this?
Speaker 3: So she is furious about this. She's like, well, Lumin
Speaker 3: hurts people, and like, yet you are gladly like helping
Speaker 3: them hurt people. And He's like listen, And I do
Speaker 3: empathize with him on some level somewhere. He's like, listen,
Speaker 3: what's more important, like me getting my message out to
Speaker 3: the widest audience possible, including enies, or like me just
Speaker 3: continuing to be like a niche self help writer. And also, Honey,
Speaker 3: it's a huge Megan a.
Speaker 2: Lot of money, Megan, a lot of money, a lot money, Mam.
Speaker 1: I do think that this.
Speaker 2: Is very interesting because yeah, I like the argument about like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's getting to the innies because then I'm like it
Speaker 2: goes back to that conversation we were talking about about
Speaker 2: like what information do they actually have? What are they
Speaker 2: receiving inside, what connection are they Also, we know that
Speaker 2: the severed floor of Lumen is essentially like a labyrinth,
Speaker 2: So I'm interested to know how many people are down there,
Speaker 2: how many people have been severed, how much of a
Speaker 2: community of Innis are there, And yeah, obviously, like I
Speaker 2: just think that Frickin is a legend, and I love
Speaker 2: that they actually released the book. You can read it
Speaker 2: as an ebook online. And I also just think that
Speaker 2: it's kind of funny. This is a show that does
Speaker 2: a really great job of bringing in.
Speaker 1: A side character who is Ricken.
Speaker 2: At first, Michael Channis, he seems like he's a kind
Speaker 2: of comedy relief, can comedic, but actually in season two
Speaker 2: he is becoming a really important kind of player. And
Speaker 2: the idea that he's willing to sell out and hurt,
Speaker 2: you know, potentially hurt the Innis or take money from
Speaker 2: women who hurt people is a kind of a sinister
Speaker 2: twist for him, and I'm I'm really interested in where
Speaker 2: that goes.
Speaker 3: It's a sinister twist and it's also like a very
Speaker 3: I mean, this is the very real struggle of art.
Speaker 3: It's the struggle of creators since the beginning of time
Speaker 3: is like in order to make the projects create the
Speaker 3: things that artists imagine, and often requires an infusion of
Speaker 3: resources that they cannot get themselves. So what are the
Speaker 3: trade offs? And I think this is a really this
Speaker 3: is somewhat is really interesting to me. Yeah, Audi Irving
Speaker 3: at Night, I'm so glad we see him again.
Speaker 1: I just I'm so this is such a great role. Honestly,
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of drag.
Speaker 2: Pros pro, but you know what the truth is, Like,
Speaker 2: I was annoyed he didn't come back for The Penguin,
Speaker 2: and I thought his reasoning was quite silly as we
Speaker 2: talked about seeing as he played a serial killer in
Speaker 2: the movie, a serial killer of women, his idea that
Speaker 2: he didn't want to hurt women was kind of wild.
Speaker 1: But you know what, I'm happy he didn't come back
Speaker 1: for the Penguin.
Speaker 2: One because I thought they recost him really, really well,
Speaker 2: and two because I need him to be in this
Speaker 2: show as van. Like, I am so just I don't
Speaker 2: know if I've anticipated an episode more in a while
Speaker 2: than the next episode where we know that he's gonna
Speaker 2: meet you know, and his husband, And I just think
Speaker 2: that's so so interesting.
Speaker 3: So Irving spends the evening taking his paintings down. Then
Speaker 3: he goes out in order to call someone from a
Speaker 3: payphone and whoever this mystery person is. And now we're
Speaker 3: getting like a key holes view into a much wider
Speaker 3: kind of conspiracy and a deeper kind of and maybe
Speaker 3: longer running kind of resistance to what's going on in
Speaker 3: Lumen than what we saw in season one. Irving's talking
Speaker 3: to someone but then notices that there's like a car
Speaker 3: idling nearby and he's being watched. He goes over and
Speaker 3: it's Audi Burt, and Bert is like, remember when you
Speaker 3: came to my house screaming? What was that? What was
Speaker 3: that about? And then he says, Donna's dreaming? Oh sleep,
Speaker 3: And then Bert says, well, listen, you know I was
Speaker 3: recently fired from Lumen and they told me it was
Speaker 3: because my INNI got into a quote, unsanctioned erotic entanglement.
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden you show up at
Speaker 3: my house screaming my name. And this, of course was
Speaker 3: at the end of season one, when the Glasgow block
Speaker 3: was removed and the Innies got out for brief periods
Speaker 3: of time. He mentions. Bert mentions that his husband Fields
Speaker 3: as like kind of furious about this reveal, and like,
Speaker 3: what do you think? Bert says, like, we're ore innis
Speaker 3: an item, and he says, like, listen, here's what we
Speaker 3: should do. You come over to my house, meet with
Speaker 3: me and my husband, and let's talk all of this.
Speaker 2: I cannot wait to me that the ham did not
Speaker 2: Totur has been all over the place teasing about it.
Speaker 3: Too, and a really expensive wine they mentioned really also.
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's just because of the cost thing.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just the conversation.
Speaker 2: I just felt like there were so many layers to this,
Speaker 2: like does but no more? Is he inviting him over
Speaker 2: because he knows that having is like calling people about
Speaker 2: his any like is he is?
Speaker 3: This? Is this the example that Milchick obviously self servingly
Speaker 3: laid out to Mark when he was trying to get
Speaker 3: him back of someone who's inner, positive emotional life reaches
Speaker 3: their audi. I don't know, you know, I think that's one.
Speaker 3: You know, I think we are always predisposed. You can
Speaker 3: think of a million.
Speaker 1: Stories like this ghost yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: One where it's like love transcends some kind of like barrier, right,
Speaker 3: and we all want to believe that, But is that
Speaker 3: what's happening here, it's very interesting to think about. Mark
Speaker 3: returns home after work to find that Regab is rifling
Speaker 3: through his late wife's stuff. She's looking very closely at
Speaker 3: a necklace that was his wife, and she says, she's
Speaker 3: hoping that, you know, because this reintegration bridge hasn't really
Speaker 3: kicked in yet all the way. She's hoping that like
Speaker 3: some item of his wife's will like shake Mark's memory
Speaker 3: and make stuff start happening, so that maybe he can
Speaker 3: remember if his any has seen her. Inside of Lumen,
Speaker 3: Mark finds a box, apparently with an urn containing her ashes.
Speaker 3: He's like, who's in there then? And Regabi is like,
Speaker 3: that's like some other Lumin person and they've got all
Speaker 3: pass to like I guess ashes, And she promises that
Speaker 3: the reintegration will start working soon and they'll start getting
Speaker 3: some answers, and Mark wants to know, like are they
Speaker 3: hurting her down there? And she's like, I don't know.
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden he hears his wife
Speaker 3: say you're Audi and starts saying stuff about your out,
Speaker 3: you're out here. Out of the bridge is starting to work,
Speaker 3: and then he finds himself the out he flashed into lumin,
Speaker 3: and he's in a dark hallway. He's walking towards the door.
Speaker 3: He opens the door in there are the bright halls
Speaker 3: of lumen and the area that seems to be like
Speaker 3: around MDR, although in the hallways you can never tell
Speaker 3: where the fuck they are. He turns around and he
Speaker 3: finds his wife and then he's boom flashes back to
Speaker 3: the outside. He's his audi back outside and he's crying,
Speaker 3: and that's it.
Speaker 1: Boom wow wow. Whate episode thoughts, Rose, Okay, fought well.
Speaker 2: I think this show is really good, really engaging. I
Speaker 2: love how much it has enticed the TV viewing population.
Speaker 2: I think, for obvious reasons, we're all living through kind
Speaker 2: of end stage capitalism right now. So I think that
Speaker 2: a show that talks about the way your job can
Speaker 2: consume you and the separation between your job and your
Speaker 2: life and whether there really is any separation, is very interesting,
Speaker 2: very relevant. I love how this has gotten the theorymongers
Speaker 2: back again, because you know, I love make a theory,
Speaker 2: so it's been very fun to see that.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question. When we first.
Speaker 2: Checked in on season two and the first episode, we
Speaker 2: were kind of in that conversation again like with Lost,
Speaker 2: like with the Yellow Jackets of like, are they gonna
Speaker 2: give us answers? How are they gonna keep us interested?
Speaker 2: Are they kind of longing out the mystery? How do
Speaker 2: you feel about it at this point after watching episode
Speaker 2: five and episodes what two to five.
Speaker 3: I'm I think this show is really good and there's
Speaker 3: a chance to be like, actually great. Mm hmm, I was.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because episodes one and two one
Speaker 3: almost feels like a step back. It almost feels like
Speaker 3: season one point.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, it's almost like they used to
Speaker 2: do those two one point five x Men one point
Speaker 2: five like DVDs where they tell you how in between
Speaker 2: the addition.
Speaker 3: To the point yeah, even to the even to the
Speaker 3: point that ste Episode two is the first episode with
Speaker 3: the new credit sequence, so it almost feels as if
Speaker 3: and it's a cooling different episode, whereas episode one is
Speaker 3: all inside and episode two is almost all outside, and
Speaker 3: it created this feeling of almost like you're throwing away
Speaker 3: an episode. But by episode three, and certainly by episode
Speaker 3: four in the ort Bow, there's as I said, it's
Speaker 3: not a lot of mystery box shows where the mystery
Speaker 3: mechanic itself is fascinating to think about out beyond the story. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and it's just like we crashed on an island. How
Speaker 3: do we survive? Like yeah, and so what's emerged here
Speaker 3: is or like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, Jacket's they crashed and they crashed.
Speaker 3: In a wood and what does that mean to our life?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: I'm not sure you know, like, but you hit on
Speaker 3: it with the kind of larger metaphors about work and
Speaker 3: workplace politics and capitalism and governance and all that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff that's super interesting. What would it mean to
Speaker 3: be severed? Is your inny? Would your any be legally
Speaker 3: a person? All of these things are fashioning to think about.
Speaker 3: And then you have actors. I was gonna say, walk off,
Speaker 3: who are giving you performances where it's a two for
Speaker 3: one across the board? You're getting the Any and the
Speaker 3: audi and like, I mean, britt Lower has a like
Speaker 3: has a Helly there's a Helli walk that is completely
Speaker 3: different than the Helena walk, Like it's just.
Speaker 1: By the.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, lay to walk. Yeah, but it's true.
Speaker 3: I feel like I would yeah, I feel like that
Speaker 3: would be some gay maybe like the gate would be.
Speaker 3: But I just think that as the characters have grown richer.
Speaker 3: The central way the mystery works has become more interesting
Speaker 3: as well. We'll be right back with the Omnibus after
Speaker 3: a break, and we're back. Welcome the omnas where Lauren
Speaker 3: understanding come together, and today we're going to talk about
Speaker 3: the old as old as the written word. King among
Speaker 3: the commoner's trope Milchik in order to calm the mdr
Speaker 3: Crew tells them about this legend of the grip shooting,
Speaker 3: the gris shooting grass shooting. Anyway, this king of Sweden
Speaker 3: who would walk around and listen to his subjects in
Speaker 3: order to understand their thoughts, their feelings, their concerns in
Speaker 3: order to better govern them. Now, this is a trope
Speaker 3: that you find inklings of it. Literally in the earliest
Speaker 3: kind of writing about rulers, you will find these little
Speaker 3: snippets about the ruler being concerned about what people are thinking.
Speaker 3: And these kind of stories work on several levels. On
Speaker 3: the one level, it's this idea of like benign kings
Speaker 3: who care about their subjects, and it's a nice thought.
Speaker 3: It's like you know that they're they're concerned about your
Speaker 3: well being and their acting in with your with an
Speaker 3: eye towards your benefit, right, and there's of course the
Speaker 3: other level that the surveillance level, where this is also
Speaker 3: the undercover boss thing exactly on the workers trying to
Speaker 3: find out, trying to find out like what they're up to,
Speaker 3: who's wasting time, who's breaking the law, who's breaking the rules.
Speaker 3: And it also works on another level of social cohesion.
Speaker 3: You know, be careful who you're rude to, because it
Speaker 3: might be the king in disguise or the prince disguise.
Speaker 1: Ends up getting turned into a into a beast.
Speaker 2: United's rude to a to a witch in disguise.
Speaker 3: There are a lot of examples of stories about rulers
Speaker 3: throughout history who would walk them, bust their subjects, and
Speaker 3: listened to them. Julius Caesar was purported to do this.
Speaker 3: Napoleon me Napoleon might have the most actual, like eyewitness
Speaker 3: reports of him doing this. There's, for instance, the writings
Speaker 3: of his valet Louis Constant Werry, who mentions this several times.
Speaker 3: He mentions once that Napoleon, while emperor, addressed as a
Speaker 3: colonel and then went out and wrote around and he said, quote,
Speaker 3: his Majesty in the uniform of a colonel rode every
Speaker 3: day on horseback and one morning, while on the road
Speaker 3: to Vienna, saw a clergyman approaching accompanied by a weeping woman,
Speaker 3: and he asks them. He goes on to say, like
Speaker 3: he ask them about like what's going on in their grief,
Speaker 3: and is very charming to them. There are a lot
Speaker 3: of stories about Napoleon doing this, so it seems like
Speaker 3: he might have done it.
Speaker 1: I just love that his valet was like just like
Speaker 1: making notes.
Speaker 2: He was like, I'm just like all He's like, I'm
Speaker 2: just like writing about my boss, like just like spilling
Speaker 2: the tea on his good deeds.
Speaker 1: Very hilarious.
Speaker 3: Several of the Ottoman emperors are purported to have done this.
Speaker 3: In Carolyn Frankel's Osmond's Dream, she quotes from a poster
Speaker 3: that appeared in the eighteenth century in Istanbul quote, you
Speaker 3: should immediately venture out in public and disguise and mingle
Speaker 3: with your subjects to get a sense of the public
Speaker 3: mood and negotiate for peace. YadA, YadA, YadA, And all
Speaker 3: of this might make you feel like you can understand
Speaker 3: the utility of a story like this in the times
Speaker 3: that they appeared, because again, it would one incentivize people
Speaker 3: to be nice and nonviolent, to each other because you
Speaker 3: never know what spies are lurking about. It might be
Speaker 3: the king or the prince, or someone a general or
Speaker 3: someone close to the king. And it also suggests like, oh,
Speaker 3: your rulers care about you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he can. However, he's on the same level as you.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: But as we see with Helly in this episode, an
Speaker 3: understanding of the plight of the lower classes does not
Speaker 3: always breed beneficial circumstances and actions. Look no further than
Speaker 3: the word villain in our language, which of course, in
Speaker 3: current usage means the bad guy, the evil person, the
Speaker 3: antagonist in the story. Villain has its roots in Latin.
Speaker 3: It originally meant you know, a commoner, someone who lives
Speaker 3: in a villa, or a villain. It was as early
Speaker 3: as thirteen oh three used as a term of like
Speaker 3: rude or harsh address, basically suggesting that the villain that
Speaker 3: you are talking to is like a base, low born, uncouth, uneducated,
Speaker 3: very potentially criminal person. And it continues from there, and
Speaker 3: you see how the meaning which was originally commoner then
Speaker 3: merges with class consciousness and what was certainly would have
Speaker 3: been a extreme contrast in diet, in clothing and comfort
Speaker 3: stuff in the ability to care for oneself, such that
Speaker 3: the ruling class would be on average healthier, although there
Speaker 3: are studies that say the average peasant in certain periods
Speaker 3: of the Middle Ages was fine in certain areas. Whatever,
Speaker 3: it's very clear from the evolution of the word villain
Speaker 3: that your rulers are not necessarily talking great about you
Speaker 3: all the time. And the way villain evolves from commoner
Speaker 3: to rude, dirty criminal person to the evil person in
Speaker 3: the story is I think illustrative of some of the
Speaker 3: dynamics at play in Milchik's recounting of the Grab shooting.
Speaker 3: We were at back with theories after this, Okay, theorious
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean definitely, I'm in a I don't know
Speaker 2: which I think is the power of the show is
Speaker 2: it still makes you interested even if you're not one
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure what's going on.
Speaker 1: If we've moved past the oh is it?
Speaker 2: And I think this is largely to do with episode
Speaker 2: four that really felt like a step into the weirdness
Speaker 2: and the wildness and the bigger story of severance that
Speaker 2: I think is really interesting and past the kind of
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily I love theories. They're fun, but I'm
Speaker 2: not like waiting for the show to reveal the truth.
Speaker 2: I actually want to see where the story goes and
Speaker 2: see the auties are doing and what the innies are doing.
Speaker 3: That's the hook that made me realize, you know what,
Speaker 3: this is like really good and has the it's got
Speaker 3: the jew chance to be really great. I think so
Speaker 3: that the show's creators, Adam Scott in particular, has already
Speaker 3: discounted the cloning theory, which when it first popped up
Speaker 3: and we were discussing it some weeks ago, I was
Speaker 3: disappointed if I was like, you know, it may be clones,
Speaker 3: but I hope it's not, because that is just like
Speaker 3: really so simple. It's Spider Man, it's Star Wars, it's Founding,
Speaker 3: it's been done so many time times.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also like, so it would be the if
Speaker 2: you showed this show to anyone and you've ever seen
Speaker 2: a kind of like series like this or a sci
Speaker 2: fi thing, and they go in the elevator and then
Speaker 2: it's like very the you know what's the the Christopher
Speaker 2: Nolan movie The Prestige, where it's like every single time
Speaker 2: that they go in the elevator, they would be creating
Speaker 2: essentially like a new clone that is, it's been done,
Speaker 2: and also it would be very complex. But I do
Speaker 2: feel like episode four did try and tease us in
Speaker 2: that direction with the reveal of like the shadow versions
Speaker 2: and also the.
Speaker 3: Twins. Yeah, the twins. There's also like the constant goats
Speaker 3: and the shepherds around the goats and their whole interesting
Speaker 3: kind of Nietzsche legends that maybe the MDR folks have
Speaker 3: pouches and that like all of that suggests mucking around
Speaker 3: with DNA. I will say that, like the Cold Harbor project,
Speaker 3: so various theories about this, the ones I've seen often
Speaker 3: reference the Civil War Battle of Cold Harbor, and there's
Speaker 3: a lot of theories now about like this is some
Speaker 3: kind of extension of the Confederacy and they're trying to
Speaker 3: act slavery been in a high tech way. I think
Speaker 3: it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I think that's very interesting, and it does align with
Speaker 2: a lot of how people have kind of responded to
Speaker 2: to the story of like, yeah, well, obviously this is
Speaker 2: a set you would essentially are creating, you know, enslaved people,
Speaker 2: but in a new way. I think that's a very
Speaker 2: interesting I would be very open to see if they
Speaker 2: had the juice to make that land in a way
Speaker 2: that felt realistic and interesting.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's that, but who knows that Cold
Speaker 3: Harbor Cold Spring Harbor in Long Island is a place
Speaker 3: that's central to the evolution of our understanding of genetics.
Speaker 3: It's where Watson and Crick disc structure of DNA. Let's
Speaker 3: let's let's just.
Speaker 2: Talk more about that, because I think that's a really
Speaker 2: interesting has an interesting connection as well to the fact
Speaker 2: that they've you know, we learned an episode for this.
Speaker 1: The idea of Montalk. What is mon Talk? Why is
Speaker 1: montalk important on island?
Speaker 3: And Montalk is on Long Island and my mom loved,
Speaker 3: love loves mont of course.
Speaker 2: Mon Talk's like very beautiful. I've never been there, but
Speaker 2: I've seen lots of pictures of it, and I will say,
Speaker 2: then mon Talk is very interesting. And I don't know
Speaker 2: if this is a you know, a Red Herring bar.
Speaker 2: If you have watched Stranger Things and you're a Stranger
Speaker 2: Things fan, if you've ever if you're a screenwriter who
Speaker 2: has ever kind of looked at the original Stranger Things
Speaker 2: story bible, the inspiration for Stranger Things is the Montalk project,
Speaker 2: which is essentially a conspiracy theory that alleges that there
Speaker 2: were like a series of United States government projects conducted
Speaker 2: at Campiro or the Montalk Air Force Station in Montalk
Speaker 2: for the purpose of creating psychological warfare techniques and allegedly
Speaker 2: time travel, which of course is hugely influential on stranger things,
Speaker 2: and that is what inspired the eleven kind of connection
Speaker 2: to the US government and the other side of the
Speaker 2: universe and the strange alien creatures, etc. But yeah, this
Speaker 2: is since the eighties. So I think the kind of
Speaker 2: the Cold Harbor, the Montalk, I think there's some kind
Speaker 2: of connection that to these true sides of American history,
Speaker 2: but also this conspiratorial side. So I think that that
Speaker 2: the Cold Harbor call is a really good one that
Speaker 2: Jason I also think we should.
Speaker 3: I think there's I would also mention that while we're
Speaker 3: on Long Island conspiracy theories, Yes, there is a there
Speaker 3: is an island called Plumb Island that's off some couple
Speaker 3: of miles off of Montalk of Orient Point, the North,
Speaker 3: the north fork of the Eastern Tale of Long Island.
Speaker 3: If you think of Long Island as a fish, and
Speaker 3: it's where the government has a Animal Disease Research Center,
Speaker 3: that there are a lot of conspiracy theories that lime
Speaker 3: disease leaked out from there and across the Long Island Sound,
Speaker 3: and that's why it appeared in Lime, Connecticut, right across
Speaker 3: the bay there. That said, fun reference to Plumb Island
Speaker 3: in Silence of the Lambs, when Clarice Starling offers Hannibal
Speaker 3: lecter some you know, as a reward for helping the government,
Speaker 3: he would get like two weeks at Plumb Island Disease
Speaker 3: Research Center anyway, So there's yeah, are these other connections
Speaker 3: very interesting.
Speaker 1: Also, Let's so we talked about clones, Let's talk about the.
Speaker 2: Other obvious one that came out after the ORTBO, which
Speaker 2: is kind of the realization that ABO is obviously an
Speaker 2: anagram for robot dieta egan is an anagram for AI generated.
Speaker 1: Jason tell us your tell us your thoughts on anagrams
Speaker 1: as clues, and.
Speaker 3: It's never, it's never the fucking anagram having I just
Speaker 3: feel like having been through having opened many mystery box
Speaker 3: stories in my life and having written stuff and knowing writers. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I always feel like the thing that a writer who
Speaker 3: is writing something that's like a thriller or a mystery
Speaker 3: based story. The thing that they would be terrified of
Speaker 3: is that you could get the answer by unscrambling somebody's
Speaker 3: fucking name.
Speaker 1: Yeah right.
Speaker 3: I just feel like it's never the anagram to me,
Speaker 3: and generative AI, I mean like AI or AI generated
Speaker 3: is like it just feels like a reach. This the
Speaker 3: first draft of this story was written like in what
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen before Generative.
Speaker 1: AI really dealing with that thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even two years ago when this show first
Speaker 3: came out, like it was that was like it was
Speaker 3: a blip then, So I feel like it's not that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, So I do, like, you know, as
Speaker 2: I love the quote that Adam Scott gave to EW
Speaker 2: when it was talking about clones and he was like,
Speaker 2: this sounds like what Luman would be in a super
Speaker 2: boring version of Severance. I think a simple idea like
Speaker 2: a robot is not necessarily going to be the answer.
Speaker 2: But I do think it's kind of incredible that the
Speaker 2: show is so interesting and layered that we're not just
Speaker 2: stuck on the fact that there's multiple versions of these characters,
Speaker 2: because that should be the big reveal, but actually we've
Speaker 2: already moved past that okay, Jason, miss Swang Mark's child.
Speaker 3: Potentially that would be.
Speaker 2: Pretty I think they could take this show to pretty
Speaker 2: bleak places.
Speaker 1: I was always a fan in season one.
Speaker 2: I was really enjoying a lot of the theories. I
Speaker 2: liked the kind of Miss Casey is Grace's theory, and
Speaker 2: that obviously end up being true. But it gets really
Speaker 2: really bleak when you start to bring children into it,
Speaker 2: and when you start to kind of why are they
Speaker 2: so obsessed with Mark and his family?
Speaker 1: Like, what do they know?
Speaker 3: Mark is really okay, Well, here's my yeah. I think
Speaker 3: that's somehow Mark and probably a lot of our other
Speaker 3: MDR people, maybe not Dylan, are connected to the Egan
Speaker 3: family in some way and an important in some way.
Speaker 3: I have some sort of Mark certainly, I believe has
Speaker 3: some sort of inate ability, some kind of innate insight
Speaker 3: that allows him to arrange the numbers, whatever the fuck
Speaker 3: the work there is they do in a way that's
Speaker 3: beyond the ability of others, And so I feel as
Speaker 3: if maybe what it is is an attempt to like
Speaker 3: bring back to life the Egan ancestors, like the Egan patriarchy,
Speaker 3: whose memories and life information is stored in DNA, fragmented
Speaker 3: down the family tree and in different places. And what
Speaker 3: they're trying to do is they refine, is assemble these
Speaker 3: pieces somehow and through that process, not by cloning, but
Speaker 3: by the severing process, bring this person at least their consciousness.
Speaker 2: Maac.
Speaker 3: That is my crazy theory.
Speaker 1: I love that theory.
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna say, I do you feel like if
Speaker 2: that is the case, I feel like they could be
Speaker 2: making a very If almost everyone at who is severed
Speaker 2: at Lumont is actually a descendant they would beat That
Speaker 2: would be a really interesting commentary on like George Washington,
Speaker 2: you know, the way that people are still finding out
Speaker 2: that they are descendants of famous slaver George George Washington.
Speaker 2: And also I think that you're onto something very interesting
Speaker 2: there because we are once again going back to our
Speaker 2: favorite plot line, of course, that there was no issues
Speaker 2: with Palpatine. Sometimes he's somehow he's returned.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I love to see these kind of the stories that
Speaker 2: we're interested in retelling. What is it about the idea
Speaker 2: of bringing back someone.
Speaker 1: Really terrible that haunts us?
Speaker 2: I think it's about the rejection of the horrors of
Speaker 2: the past, you know, the rejection and I think that
Speaker 2: the idea that the those things could come back, and
Speaker 2: of course this feels incredibly resonant and awful in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five, Jason, I think, I mean, you might they
Speaker 2: might be calling you for season three, because I feel
Speaker 2: like that's a pretty fantastic theory.
Speaker 3: I mean, the thing that I keep thinking about is
Speaker 3: that we don't truly know how many times characters in
Speaker 3: this show have been seven.
Speaker 1: I think this is a big deal.
Speaker 3: And I think there's a world in which because like
Speaker 3: Helly is severed, she's basically a leader in the company.
Speaker 3: We don't know if mister Drummond is severed, but he
Speaker 3: might be. And if severing yeah is naturally and if,
Speaker 3: as in any you would not have any knowledge of
Speaker 3: the other parts of your life through this process, I
Speaker 3: think there's I think there's a possibility that these characters
Speaker 3: have quote unquote forgotten, do not know who they actually
Speaker 3: are because of how many times potentially they've been severed
Speaker 3: and this, and I think a lot of the stuff,
Speaker 3: like the pictures the paintings, are an attempt to elicit
Speaker 3: an emotional reaction that would show that that would somehow
Speaker 3: break through these severing walls. Somehow to suggest that like, oh,
Speaker 3: we got through to the real person. They're reacting to
Speaker 3: this painting. Therefore that means, whatever, we mind this person
Speaker 3: further for more stuff.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great cool because I definitely had
Speaker 2: been thinking about Irving. Has Irving been severed more than once?
Speaker 2: And that was definitely something that people on the internet
Speaker 2: were talking about, especially as he seems to have these
Speaker 2: ways to communicate with his inny.
Speaker 3: He's much Yeah, he's much more adept at navigating the
Speaker 3: barriers of any audi and seems to have like a
Speaker 3: much more established conspiracy as Mark struggles to like burn
Speaker 3: images into his eyes, you know, of navigating these So
Speaker 3: it's very interesting Irving, like finding out more about Irving. Yes,
Speaker 3: I can't wait.
Speaker 2: I think it's key, Okay, I do want to tag
Speaker 2: in super producer Joel Monique quickly. We're going to take
Speaker 2: a quick break and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1: And we're back. Is she available? Is she available?
Speaker 2: I really just just before we stop talking about theories,
Speaker 2: I really would love for you to talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about like the more philosophical readings of this and
Speaker 2: kind of mystery box shows like The Leftovers, because there
Speaker 2: is and always has been an idea that lumin is
Speaker 2: some kind of like purgatory space and that maybe they're like,
Speaker 2: you know, trying to they're reading the quality of people's
Speaker 2: souls or like all these kind of deep, wild thoughts
Speaker 2: that very much in that kind of leftover space.
Speaker 1: So would you talk little bit about that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I loved hearing you guys sort of talk about
Speaker 4: this idea of Lumen's space being not just like a
Speaker 4: thought experiment on corporate life. But I think they've sort
Speaker 4: of wriggled under something that's really horrifying for a lot
Speaker 4: of Americans. Is something we've talked about for a long time.
Speaker 4: But I think maybe we're feeling extra after a pandemic
Speaker 4: that allowed us to break free from the confines of
Speaker 4: our office space, and that's like how much of your
Speaker 4: life are you selling to a corporation? But then also
Speaker 4: by doing an any audi version of it, they've sort
Speaker 4: of tapped into this idea of like how are you
Speaker 4: different from other workers? You know, it's the thing that
Speaker 4: haunts me as I watch it, the way people have
Speaker 4: like even if you're any is different from you, if
Speaker 4: you view them as a different person, there's this lingering,
Speaker 4: haunting feeling of like they keep saying, just throw them away,
Speaker 4: though they like that's you still like that's your body,
Speaker 4: it's your time still technically like this is still minutes
Speaker 4: of your life. And for them to be so disposable
Speaker 4: on such a large scale, it's haunting. And I think
Speaker 4: what makes this show really great is they I think
Speaker 4: they stumble into things sometimes. There's been a lot of
Speaker 4: discussion around Natalie. I have heard, but have not been
Speaker 4: able to source properly, that the character of Natalie was
Speaker 4: not written as black, or as mixed race or anything like.
Speaker 4: She was just the character naturally, and that now we've
Speaker 4: sort of stumbled backwards into this like constant conversation between
Speaker 4: Miltchick and Natalie. These weird like even the cinematography scenes.
Speaker 4: There's a scene where Miltchick is backlit so instantly, if
Speaker 4: you backlight somebody to become darker, all of the light
Speaker 4: is spilling on Natalie. It makes her lighter, And you're like,
Speaker 4: is this on purpose? Are you trying to tend the
Speaker 4: Because the space the show leads so much space open
Speaker 4: for philosophy, both current to Jason's point and yours to
Speaker 4: sort of higher more religious philosophy with these paintings in
Speaker 4: the way the corporation has sort of structured itself with
Speaker 4: these or do you like profits? Essentially all the leaders
Speaker 4: are sort of prepositioned as being profits and you want
Speaker 4: to follow their text almost in a biblical way. It
Speaker 4: sort of gives the show this extra layer of mystery.
Speaker 4: So in addition to having what's going on between the
Speaker 4: Innies and Audi's what's the corporation's overall goal, you're also
Speaker 4: sort of getting like a how do we treat just
Speaker 4: like your average worker? Then I find this show so
Speaker 4: deeply distroyed this sometimes I have a hard time pressing
Speaker 4: play and sort of like in The Leftovers, I think
Speaker 4: I waited like two years to watch the finale of
Speaker 4: The Leftovers because I was just like, philosophically, I'm not emotional,
Speaker 4: I just want who do they come back? Or no,
Speaker 4: I'm just scared. I just I don't want people to
Speaker 4: be hurt.
Speaker 1: But it's so good.
Speaker 2: Severance is definitely has that power over me because when
Speaker 2: we were like, Okay, we got to do this, I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I got to rewatch the episode.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, like this is gonna break.
Speaker 2: Me, and Okay, Joel, I'm also going to ask you
Speaker 2: a question, how do you feel about Miltchick and Natalie
Speaker 2: in the context we don't know if Natalie's severed, but
Speaker 2: in the context of I've seen some very interesting arguments
Speaker 2: and conversations about like should we feel sorry for them?
Speaker 1: Are they complicit?
Speaker 2: That very famous scene with Natalie and Miltchick where it
Speaker 2: seems like she can't say something was really giving get
Speaker 2: out vibes. But some people are like, well, they're working
Speaker 2: for your you know, essentially a modern day slavery company,
Speaker 2: So like what, how where do you stand on that
Speaker 2: and where do you think that storyline's going to go?
Speaker 4: I think Natalie is the lynchpin for a lot of things,
Speaker 4: right like, because to me, if Natalie isn't severed, I
Speaker 4: was reading theories on Reddit earlier ready, y'all are funny.
Speaker 4: People were redda is they They were like, Natalie is
Speaker 4: just a calms person. This is how calms people act.
Speaker 4: She's not severed, she's not being.
Speaker 1: Course or whatever.
Speaker 4: She's a calms person. And by that they sort of
Speaker 4: meant like she's a person who's very easily able to
Speaker 4: separate her emotions and opinions about what the company should
Speaker 4: be doing in exchange for being THEE of the company,
Speaker 4: and that it doesn't really matter. And so I was like, Oh,
Speaker 4: that's really compelling. And to me, I think mystery boxes
Speaker 4: are so much more compelling when and I think we
Speaker 4: talked about this a little bit when we talked about
Speaker 4: the agency, like human stupidity is far more interesting to
Speaker 4: me than like, oh it's a grand schemes, yeah yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 4: And so to your point, I think personally, I think
Speaker 4: Natalie is just a person. It's interesting to think that
Speaker 4: she might be severed because of what's going on with Gemma,
Speaker 4: But to me, she just appears. And I think that
Speaker 4: you should not feel too bad for Natalie if you go,
Speaker 4: if you're at the point where you're going on CNN
Speaker 4: to make statements for a company, then yes, you are
Speaker 4: absolutely complicit. That's complicit. You are. You are going on
Speaker 4: into a very large basis. This is what's happening, and
Speaker 4: it's the correct decision to be making. I am saying
Speaker 4: it as of the mouthpiece. So for Natalie, no, unless,
Speaker 4: of course she severed and not in control of herself,
Speaker 4: in which case then yes, of course she should be
Speaker 4: love her milkshakes to it is really really really like
Speaker 4: the style of dress for him. The short sleeves automatically
Speaker 4: denotes a lower level of management.
Speaker 3: Get ready with Milchick, in my opinion, get ready for
Speaker 3: the anekin like turn. There is something about Milchick. There
Speaker 3: is something about Milchick where like he is a hard ass,
Speaker 3: and I think he is in a lot of ways
Speaker 3: the villain of this story. But he's evincing like empathy
Speaker 3: for the innies in ways that always surprise me. He
Speaker 3: seems to understand and speak to what they're going through
Speaker 3: in a way that nobody else has an ability to do,
Speaker 3: and that suggests to me that there is a big
Speaker 3: turn coming.
Speaker 2: Even like even like the gifts and the parties and
Speaker 2: all of that, we don't really know if that's like
Speaker 2: truly standard practice across Luman, Like that could be him
Speaker 2: trying the funeral, you know, these are things that he's
Speaker 2: willing to do. And also I means I know.
Speaker 1: Is everyone's favorite mil Chick look.
Speaker 4: It's obviously the white snow bunny fit.
Speaker 3: Like I just don't.
Speaker 1: I love that fit. I'm gonna go for the I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go for the tout le neck.
Speaker 3: Oh, he was looking crisp will be iconic at this point.
Speaker 3: I like the leather jacket, the motorcycle.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so many Alcock.
Speaker 3: Kind of a cool guy.
Speaker 4: Can I just say about Miltchick before we come the
Speaker 4: leather jacket.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of.
Speaker 4: Empathy Melchick as somebody who comes from generations of middle
Speaker 4: class Black Americans like this idea of both being a
Speaker 4: bridge for workers to a corporation and position I currently
Speaker 4: hold is tear like every time are like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: I'm so nervous, like I can't please, don't lose your humanity.
Speaker 4: To Jason's point, I really worry about it. That scene
Speaker 4: where he flipped in the elevator so fast and minute
Speaker 4: he was cornered and kind of being called out. He
Speaker 4: was like, fine, yeah, I'm gonna crank its tent. But
Speaker 4: we also have a feeling that the elevators are maybe
Speaker 4: their most monitored space. And if that's the case, this
Speaker 4: is a performance for someone else's I think miltcheck might
Speaker 4: that was for public consumption, for sure. I think Milchik
Speaker 4: is feeling something else outside of this company. He has
Speaker 4: an angle and agenda. What I can't tell you is
Speaker 4: if he believes he can fix things from the inside
Speaker 4: what I'd like to call the black cop problem, or
Speaker 4: is it that he can take it down from the inside,
Speaker 4: and he's nefariously setting things up. I don't know yet.
Speaker 3: I think he thinks that this project is overall good,
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and that though it causes significant pain
Speaker 3: and suffering to the innies, that if they can just
Speaker 3: get through this, it'll be worth it. And I think
Speaker 3: at some point he's and I think at some point
Speaker 3: he's going to question that because the way he again,
Speaker 3: the way he operates, is so interesting to me. He's
Speaker 3: clearly convinced the board to give him wide latitude to
Speaker 3: do a lot of different stuff on his own accord,
Speaker 3: and that's really interesting, particularly as basically like the new
Speaker 3: floor manager in the wake of what was essentially like
Speaker 3: a truly disastrous corporate and pr event. So he has
Speaker 3: a lot of pull in there, and that suggests to
Speaker 3: me that they one he is he understands this world
Speaker 3: in a way that he's able to communicate that's compelling
Speaker 3: to the board. And also for some reason, the board
Speaker 3: see him as the perfect person to do this. And
Speaker 3: none of those things have been cleared up yet and
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see where it goes.
Speaker 2: So good?
Speaker 4: Did Harmony cord Belle great when you'd find out? I
Speaker 4: just uh, there's a lot of theories on this show.
Speaker 4: It's delicious. I'm glad you guys decided to recap it.
Speaker 4: It's going to be a fun rest of season two.
Speaker 2: On Tuesday on x ray Vision, we are diving into
Speaker 2: our first ever club. There's still a little time to
Speaker 2: read Born Again before the episode airs, so make sure
Speaker 2: to check that out from your local comic shop or
Speaker 2: get from.
Speaker 1: Your local library.
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, we'll be talking about sever and season two,
Speaker 2: episode six, what is going on at Lumen? And On
Speaker 2: Thursday were recapping the first season of Dead Evil, the
Speaker 2: Netflix series that is now on Disney Plus, and it's
Speaker 2: just as brutal as ever.
Speaker 3: That's it for this episode.
Speaker 1: Bye.
Speaker 3: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Rosie
Speaker 3: Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Korfman.
Speaker 3: Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent, Dean Johnson and Baywag.
Speaker 3: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez with alternate theme
Speaker 3: songs by Aaron Kauffman.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 2: Hi I Discord Moderator