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Speaker 1: Spoiler alert.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains spoilers for the season so far and

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Speaker 2: also episode five, which at the point of recording was

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Speaker 2: the newest episode that had been released and that we

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Speaker 2: have seen, so we have not yet seen episode six,

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Speaker 2: even though that is out now.

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Speaker 3: Hello, it was Jason Eccepcion and I'm Rosie Knight, and

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Speaker 3: welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where we

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Speaker 3: dive deep to your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.

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Speaker 3: Coming from our podcast where we're bringing you three episodes

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Speaker 3: a week and we're finally doing it.

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Speaker 1: You are driving you to Severance.

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Speaker 2: And now it's happening sun Server Run. Yes, the people

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Speaker 2: want Severance, so here we are severancing it Up and

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Speaker 2: Jason are luckily not severed yet. We still know the

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Speaker 2: difference between the real life and the pod, but it's

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Speaker 2: getting stranger as twenty twenty five goes on. So in

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Speaker 2: today's episode in the Airlock, we will be recapping the

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Speaker 2: most recent episode of Severance, episode five, and throughout the

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Speaker 2: show we'll be talking about the impact and our fandom

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Speaker 2: of the series so far. Jason has a little delightful

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Speaker 2: omnibus for us about the King among Commoner's Trope, which

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Speaker 2: is really exciting.

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Speaker 1: And then we're gonna explore.

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Speaker 2: Our favorite fan theories and some of them are pretty wild. Guys,

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Speaker 2: We're going to debate ces is it robots? Is it?

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Speaker 1: None of the above?

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Speaker 2: We'll see and remember we are hosting our very first

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Speaker 2: book club. We will be covering Dead Evil Born Again,

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Speaker 2: the classic comic arc by Frank Miller and David Magicelli,

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Speaker 2: and we will be posting that episode on Tuesday, February

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth.

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Speaker 1: You still have three days to read the comment up.

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Speaker 3: Next, the Airlock Okay Severance Season two, episode five, Trojan Horse.

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Speaker 3: We open in the wake of the disastrous, truly disastrous

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Speaker 3: ortbo Outbuit Retreat team building occurrence, and it's revealed that

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Speaker 3: Helly was actually Helena Egan spying on the Innies and

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Speaker 3: the retreat that featured the removal of Irving's Glasgow Block,

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Speaker 3: resulting in his essential execution I Think I Love You.

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Speaker 3: We are somewhere inside lumin We see a worker take

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Speaker 3: possession of a tray of dental tools and then board

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Speaker 3: the mysterious elevator which goes we don't know where, but

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Speaker 3: I would imagine we're gonna find out soon. Audie Mark

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Speaker 3: is at home talking to his sister Devin on the phone,

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Speaker 3: while taking a tray of strange pills and drinking a

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Speaker 3: vial of stuff that looks scared early like the jars

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Speaker 3: from Don't Breed There like Little fALS.

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Speaker 2: Very reference that, but absolutely true. You don't want to

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Speaker 2: be drinking that stuff. I do feel like this episode

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Speaker 2: is bearing us even more towards kind of the genre,

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Speaker 2: the horror, the weirdness, because the fental trays, the strange files,

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Speaker 2: We're really getting into some creepy stuff right now.

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Speaker 3: Should also note that weird food is a theme in

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Speaker 3: this show. They're always eating like strange like in this

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Speaker 3: episode they eat like watermelon only at a party and

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Speaker 3: drink water and take strange pills. All of this is

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Speaker 3: very strange anyway. Mark tells Devin that apparently at the

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Speaker 3: or Bow his any Like took a spill, but otherwise

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Speaker 3: it's not a big deal. He continues to be unable

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Speaker 3: to burn messages into his eyeballs to send messages to

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Speaker 3: his any and then Recabi comes over actually to check

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Speaker 3: on him in the wake of the reintegration procedure that

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Speaker 3: he underwent. Nothing's really happening with that yet, Helena meets

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Speaker 3: with mister Drummond and Natalie and to talk about the

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Speaker 3: Calaminous Orbo. Dad would apparently be so troubled by the

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Speaker 3: events of the Orbo that he is being kept in

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Speaker 3: the dark about it, according to mister Drummond. And since

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Speaker 3: Mark is past eighty percent completion on whatever the Cold

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Speaker 3: Harbor project is, Helly's going to have to re emerge

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Speaker 3: back inside. No, she's going to have to go back

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Speaker 3: as Helly, not Helena, in order to keep Mark productive somehow,

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Speaker 3: because Mark is apparently crucial to this project, and which

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Speaker 3: is important information that we've kind of been getting beforehand.

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Speaker 3: And we also get the important I think something important

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Speaker 3: in the content of other stuff that happens in the scene.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk about it. Also in the omnibus, we get

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Speaker 3: this moment where Helena refers to the innies as basically animals.

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Speaker 3: They're less than people. They're not people, they're animals.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is harsh, harsh, but also telling. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you a question about Helly Helena.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I saw a great video by I believe

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Speaker 2: it was my fang girl Frankie, just kind of talking

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Speaker 2: about like how even though Helena is you know, very

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Speaker 2: very complicit, very evil talking in this really harsh language, honestly,

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Speaker 2: like can you blame her for like not wanting to

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Speaker 2: go back as Helly? And every time Helly wakes up,

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Speaker 2: she's like being strangled, being drowned, Like listen, it's definitely

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Speaker 2: an ale muged as a very interesting and complex character

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Speaker 2: in this show, which I wasn't expecting post the reveal.

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Speaker 3: What's interesting about this show, in contrast to many other

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Speaker 3: Miss Your Box shows, and I would include lost in this,

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Speaker 3: is that the mystery mechanic itself is actually fascinating to

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Speaker 3: think about, Like if you were severed, like if you

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Speaker 3: were hell Helena not Helen Helena, you'd be like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: fucking Helly's not a person, what do you kidding?

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Speaker 2: I'm me.

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Speaker 3: That other me that's just inside is just like a fragment,

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Speaker 3: like kill them. Yeah, it's like a racism if it's necessary,

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Speaker 3: Like why are we even talking about this? I'm me?

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Speaker 3: And then when that fragment of me gone, I can

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Speaker 3: continue to live my life as normal, like why are

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Speaker 3: we even discussing this? So it is quite interesting. Back

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Speaker 3: inside Helly not Helena, actual Helly gets her first look

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Speaker 3: at Miss Wang and is like, what the fuck? And

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Speaker 3: at a meeting with Milkchick, we see that none of

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Speaker 3: the MDR crew is getting any of the info that

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Speaker 3: they need. After the ORPO, Helly learns that she's been

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Speaker 3: Helena for a while and that nobody knew the difference,

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Speaker 3: and she's so confused and shaken by this. Dylan wants

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Speaker 3: to know where Irving is. Apparently on an elongated cruise voyage.

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Speaker 3: His audi rather is an elongated cruise voyage and any

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Speaker 3: Irving is never to return. But Dylan wants more information.

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Speaker 3: He's not getting it, and Mark is now paranoid because

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Speaker 3: he is like, Helly telling the truth? Now, is she

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Speaker 3: hit her? Is she? What is happening?

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Speaker 1: I have to say?

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Speaker 3: And also they had sex?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, ye was that exactly? And also I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: do feel like, come on, guys.

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Speaker 2: From the beginning of watching this season, all of us

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Speaker 2: were like, maybe that's a light.

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Speaker 3: Now like I feel like, you know, sometimes, it was

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Speaker 3: a great theory, it was a very common theory. It

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Speaker 3: was cool to see it paid off, and.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it makes having us be in on

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Speaker 2: it in that kind of sense of kind of dramatic

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Speaker 2: irony to then be like yelling at the screen like Mark,

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Speaker 2: that is not Helly, that is not Helly, and then

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Speaker 2: have it pay off, and it makes it hard because

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Speaker 2: now well it makes it good to watch because now

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Speaker 2: you're on Helly's side. You're like, how did you not

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Speaker 2: really lies? If you're supposedly so? You know, together after

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Speaker 2: everything that happened with the OTC.

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Speaker 3: Something interesting about the Helly about Helena referring to the

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Speaker 3: innis as animals. Helly. Of course the inny Helly is

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Speaker 3: in love with Mark. I think that's fair to say, right,

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Speaker 3: they feel very warmly for each other. I think what's

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Speaker 3: interesting is in episode two, mil Chick, when he's trying

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Speaker 3: to get Mark to come back, is like, you're any

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Speaker 3: Mark has found love and Mark's like, what it's like? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And though he can't he doesn't tell him anything about it.

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Speaker 3: He's like, and those warm feelings will find their way

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Speaker 3: to you. You just have to find time for that

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Speaker 3: to happen. I thought that was really interesting. That's the

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Speaker 3: first time we've really ever heard about the concept or

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Speaker 3: the idea that your innies, life and emotions and emotional

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Speaker 3: well being and mental health can like affect your the

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Speaker 3: audie in any kind of way, and I think I

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Speaker 3: don't know, because I got to say, Helena kind of

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Speaker 3: contradicts that idea because she hates the innies.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the greatest questions of this show because

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Speaker 2: with Irving there was like his dreams and whether that

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Speaker 2: was him communicating to himself or whether that was his

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Speaker 2: Outy's feelings coming in, So there is this kind of

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Speaker 2: potential spillover.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, Helly is not Helly, Helena.

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Speaker 2: Not feeling that that's not something she and also obviously

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Speaker 2: trying to get Mark to go back in. He is

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Speaker 2: clearly here the kind of like Luke Skywalker esque.

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Speaker 1: They need him to do whatever that is.

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Speaker 3: They need him for some some reason.

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Speaker 4: Good.

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Speaker 3: He's good at MDR and he's crucial to this very

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Speaker 3: very very humanity shaking. Apparently, Project call the Fucking Milchik

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Speaker 3: tries to chill everybody out by telling them the story

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Speaker 3: of King Charles of Sweden and his grax Schupin. I

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Speaker 3: am sorry to all the Swedish folks. If greg Schupin

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Speaker 3: being like a kind of uh like robe or a

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Speaker 3: cowl that commoners were and he would go amongst the people,

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Speaker 3: as many have noted, like basically like ancient undercover box

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Speaker 3: to learn what the vibe on the street was in

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Speaker 3: order that he could better rule in their with their

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Speaker 3: well being in mind, and basically suggesting, well, that's what

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Speaker 3: Helena was doing. You know, the Egan family the board

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Speaker 3: or in the wake of the uprising from season one,

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Speaker 3: they're really interested in the quality of life that the

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Speaker 3: Innies have, and Helena was just trying to cut through

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Speaker 3: the bureaucras he cut through the red tape and you know,

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Speaker 3: learn the truth about what's going on down here in Lumen.

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Speaker 3: And this story satisfies no one will have more on

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Speaker 3: the king amongst the commoner's trope in the I don't

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Speaker 3: know this. Back in MDR. The crew, who is it

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Speaker 3: just immediate, It was interesting to watch them like immediately

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Speaker 3: fall back into like a refining groove. They see that

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Speaker 3: they go to their workstations, and though they are all

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Speaker 3: in like different headspaces, and Dylan is super mad at

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Speaker 3: Mark and Helly is like it's trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: what Mark's thinking. They build, they all kind of fall

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Speaker 3: in line and begin working Milchick and this is interesting, Rosie.

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Speaker 3: I think that one of the things that is definitely

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Speaker 3: happening is the board through Miltchick is trying to sew

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Speaker 3: is trying to rip piece the MDR crew apart, and

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Speaker 3: so paranoia and he they're two connected. He says, like

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Speaker 3: Dylan is complaining, you know, about everything, and Miltchick and

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Speaker 3: basically makes a sharp remark about Helena, and Miltchik says,

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Speaker 3: you know, you got to watch what you say or

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Speaker 3: your special privileges might get provoked. And this you could

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Speaker 3: see that Mark certainly notices this is special privileges. What

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Speaker 3: does that mean? Dylan wants and Miltchick agrees to provide

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Speaker 3: a brief because Mark wants it very brief, and I'm

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Speaker 3: sure Miltchick wanted that also a very brief funeral to

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Speaker 3: memorialize Irving. And this is the first time we see

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Speaker 3: that Mark has this weird nagging cough. What is this

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Speaker 3: nagging cost? What is when did this happen? I know,

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Speaker 3: I'm very interested.

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Speaker 2: In this because I think that the notion of what

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Speaker 2: the innies really are, or who the innies really are,

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Speaker 2: or how the nis exist. As soon as you notice

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Speaker 2: something a little bit more human, like a cough or something,

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Speaker 2: you start to wonder, like, what is that?

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Speaker 1: Is it? You know, is this going to be some

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Speaker 1: kind of you know.

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Speaker 2: Clone Wars style story about Mark and he's a clone

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Speaker 2: and the clone is slowly dying or becoming ill or aging, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'm just so interested to see web this goes.

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Speaker 3: Helly pulls Mark aside and is like are you good?

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Speaker 3: And Marcus you know, kind of stand offish, and then

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Speaker 3: Helly is like, could you tell it was? What was

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Speaker 3: she like? What was Helena like? And he's like, she

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Speaker 3: was like you, I don't know, Like I couldn't tell

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Speaker 3: the difference.

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Speaker 1: Bro, don't admit it. Don't admit He's very, very freaked out.

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Speaker 3: And of course he does not mention that they had sex.

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Speaker 3: Miss Hwang meanwhile, and then here we get some more

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Speaker 3: perspective on how, at least how middle management views isn't

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Speaker 3: certainly we know the feelings of Helena and people above

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Speaker 3: middle management, but she is concerned that the funeral will

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Speaker 3: further personify the innies, make them feel like full people.

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Speaker 3: And then she flexes on Milchick and lets him know

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Speaker 3: that she knows that his performance review is coming up.

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Speaker 3: She's like, oh, so you've got your first performance review,

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Speaker 3: and he is annoyed at this. At the funeral, Dylan

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Speaker 3: does eulogy. Miltchik, I think describes it fairly as a

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Speaker 3: little characteristically sharp but also a little uncharacteristically sweet. Wang

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Speaker 3: comes in with a cart that features Irving's head carved

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Speaker 3: out of a Malaysian black watermelon, and then she sets

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Speaker 3: up her terremin and like eager to begin playing her theremin,

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Speaker 3: but Miltchik flexes back on her by basically canceling her

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Speaker 3: musical performance, and she's very by this. Mark is in

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Speaker 3: asshole mode. He is like five minutes at the funeral.

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Speaker 3: He's ready to go, He's ready to go back to work.

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Speaker 3: Dylan tells Helly because now he's mad at Mark that hey,

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Speaker 3: did you know that Mark was married to who oh

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Speaker 3: miss Casey? That's right? What Helly is like mind blown

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Speaker 3: by this. Mark then strongly rebuffs Helly and basically says, like,

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Speaker 3: what's the U and all this plotting and planning we're

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Speaker 3: doing now in here when clearly everyone a rate against us,

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Speaker 3: including our audies, are much much smarter than us, and

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Speaker 3: they have the benefit of a more total picture of

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Speaker 3: what's going on. And by the way, I don't even

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Speaker 3: know if you're Helena or well who the fuck you are,

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Speaker 3: and Helly's like, well, you have to trust me and

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Speaker 3: stop being an asshole please. He is really on asshole,

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Speaker 3: He's I mean, I get it because I'm so shaken

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Speaker 3: right now. Natalie takes Milchick up to his review Milchick

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Speaker 3: and I thought was and this is one of those moments.

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Speaker 3: You know, people have been asking us cover the cover

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Speaker 3: the show, and I've always like been like, the show's good,

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Speaker 3: I'm very interested in it. I thought the finale of

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Speaker 3: season one was like wow, Thick and like, this is

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Speaker 3: one of the scenes where man, the show continues to deepen,

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Speaker 3: and it really interesting. Way is Milchick tries to connect

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Speaker 3: with over the fact that, hey, Natalie, you and I

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Speaker 3: are basically the only two black lumen employed in management

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Speaker 3: or higher How did you feel when you received the

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Speaker 3: cure paintings with you know, Papa Egan colored as a

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Speaker 3: black person, and Natalie is not interested in engaging in

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Speaker 3: this conversation, and this is a I was listening to

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Speaker 3: the official pod and Trammel, the actor who plays Milchick,

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Speaker 3: talked about asking, like Ben and Dan Erickson, does Milchick

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Speaker 3: know he's black? You know, because the amount of severing

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Speaker 3: of the management of the Milchick and others is like

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Speaker 3: pretty unclear. But as we've seen from the Innies, while

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Speaker 3: they maintain something like the base personality of their audies,

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Speaker 3: they have very little other information to grasp and like

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Speaker 3: no context for a lot of stuff. They're very naive.

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Speaker 3: It's like, why a lot of this Like yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean when Helly fust be going back to season one,

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Speaker 2: the first episode, she seems to be the first person

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Speaker 2: who's been in there who's like, what the fuck is

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Speaker 2: going on? Like everyone else kind of naively just turns

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Speaker 2: up to work and does that thing and says, well,

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Speaker 2: we've got out.

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Speaker 1: He's in Inni's and hell He's like, no, this is terrible.

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Speaker 1: And that's before that.

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Speaker 2: There just isn't really even that kind of acceptance that

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Speaker 2: being trapped in work for your entire life is.

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Speaker 1: Messed up, you know, let alone connections with the actual

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Speaker 1: outside world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the like the orp Bow outdoor Retreat Team,

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Speaker 3: billion Currents and the other acronyms that like appear in

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Speaker 3: the show that feel like really unwieldy. I've been thinking

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Speaker 3: about it, and it makes sense from the perspective of

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Speaker 3: if you're an any and you don't know what stuff is.

295
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Speaker 3: You don't know the meaning of things. You would need

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Speaker 3: these hilariously like long titles of things in order to

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Speaker 3: try and give you some kind of base context for

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Speaker 3: what you're taking part in. Dylan, meanwhile, back in the

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Speaker 3: funeral room, is lost in thought and he remembers Irving's

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Speaker 3: final word to him before the Glasgow block was removed

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Speaker 3: and he was essentially killed. Hang in there, and he

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Speaker 3: sees in the room the breakroom a poster with the

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Speaker 3: same words, and behind the poster is a note with

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Speaker 3: a sketch of the mysterious elevator and on the other

305
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Speaker 3: side directions to the elevator in the hilariously labyrinthine halways,

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Speaker 3: like how to navigate them. Mister Drummond runs the review,

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Speaker 3: which is going to take a long time, over four hours,

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Speaker 3: certainly to the point that like, here's a menu and

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Speaker 3: we're going to order food milk chick. On the surface,

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Speaker 3: appears to be doing pretty good. He received the cure paintings.

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Speaker 3: He received the cure paintings gracefully, says the report, which

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Speaker 3: I think suggests that the Egans understand that these are

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Speaker 3: offensive in some way and that they're purposefully offensive, like

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Speaker 3: we're trying to offend you. But will you just respec Yeah,

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Speaker 3: will you just will you just respond gracefully if we

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Speaker 3: offend you, then there's the issue with the paper He

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Speaker 3: never misses work. This is all the positives and he is.

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Speaker 3: His blood tests show that he's not like smoking dope. However,

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Speaker 3: there is one dinah right, he's using too many big words.

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Speaker 3: Guilty is charged. He uses colloquial in his in his

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Speaker 3: attempted retort, he is not putting the paper clips on

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Speaker 3: the reports correctly. And most seriously, his management approach appears

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Speaker 3: to be a fiasco in the making. And we need

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Speaker 3: only look at the recent orpo Now this can't go on,

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Speaker 3: Drummond says, because like Mark is at eighty five percent

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Speaker 3: on Cold Harbor, and we got to keep you know,

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Speaker 3: Cold Harbor, he says, is going to be like one

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Speaker 3: of the greatest breakthroughs in the history of mankind, which

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Speaker 3: is okay, like that's pretty big, stakes huge, Yes, sounds

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Speaker 3: pretty huge. So Miltchig is like, listen, I get it.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to crack the whip from here on out

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Speaker 3: no more, mister Nyska. We see that after the funeral,

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Speaker 3: Audi Mark, and after his conversation with Helly, maybe his

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Speaker 3: the reintegration process is beginning to kick in, because there's

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Speaker 3: a moment where you see that maybe something happens and

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Speaker 3: his AUDI broke through maybe for a second. He goes

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Speaker 3: to the elevator. He's leaving work six minutes early, as

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Speaker 3: Milchik says. Milchick then invades his personal space and asks,

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Speaker 3: what's up? Why are you leaving? And how did you

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Speaker 3: like the funeral? Mark is in full like wise ass

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Speaker 3: student like talking back to the teacher.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting to see mak in this episode, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm intrigued.

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Speaker 3: Melchick then gets even like steps even further into his

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Speaker 3: personal space and is like, did you tell Helly that

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Speaker 3: you fucked her? Audi? Mark has absolutely nothing to.

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Speaker 1: Say, probably because he could.

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Speaker 3: Be the and this is the first time he's learning

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Speaker 3: of this. But it's unclear. It's not clear it's that,

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Speaker 3: but I think unclear.

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Speaker 1: That's how they want you to feel. They want you

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Speaker 1: to not know.

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Speaker 2: And I think that the introduction of Helena, we knew

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Speaker 2: it from the end of this season one who Helena was,

355
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Speaker 2: but the introduction of the idea and how he can

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Speaker 2: make it into Lumen, adds like an extra layer of

357
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Speaker 2: paranoia and strangeness and will I'm sure kind of lead

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Speaker 2: to whatever the big reveal is.

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Speaker 3: At the end of this season, he walks out of

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Speaker 3: the building and Helena is in the lobby kind of

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Speaker 3: watching him, unbeknownst to him, watching him leave. Devin is

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Speaker 3: dealing with her husband's now Lumen sponsored.

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Speaker 1: Writing crowd could you do this?

364
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Speaker 3: So she is furious about this. She's like, well, Lumin

365
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Speaker 3: hurts people, and like, yet you are gladly like helping

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Speaker 3: them hurt people. And He's like listen, And I do

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Speaker 3: empathize with him on some level somewhere. He's like, listen,

368
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Speaker 3: what's more important, like me getting my message out to

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Speaker 3: the widest audience possible, including enies, or like me just

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Speaker 3: continuing to be like a niche self help writer. And also, Honey,

371
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Speaker 3: it's a huge Megan a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of money, Megan, a lot of money, a lot money, Mam.

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Speaker 1: I do think that this.

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Speaker 2: Is very interesting because yeah, I like the argument about like, oh,

375
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Speaker 2: it's getting to the innies because then I'm like it

376
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 2: goes back to that conversation we were talking about about

377
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Speaker 2: like what information do they actually have? What are they

378
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Speaker 2: receiving inside, what connection are they Also, we know that

379
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Speaker 2: the severed floor of Lumen is essentially like a labyrinth,

380
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Speaker 2: So I'm interested to know how many people are down there,

381
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Speaker 2: how many people have been severed, how much of a

382
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: community of Innis are there, And yeah, obviously, like I

383
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Speaker 2: just think that Frickin is a legend, and I love

384
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Speaker 2: that they actually released the book. You can read it

385
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: as an ebook online. And I also just think that

386
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: it's kind of funny. This is a show that does

387
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Speaker 2: a really great job of bringing in.

388
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Speaker 1: A side character who is Ricken.

389
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Speaker 2: At first, Michael Channis, he seems like he's a kind

390
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: of comedy relief, can comedic, but actually in season two

391
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 2: he is becoming a really important kind of player. And

392
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Speaker 2: the idea that he's willing to sell out and hurt,

393
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: you know, potentially hurt the Innis or take money from

394
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: women who hurt people is a kind of a sinister

395
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Speaker 2: twist for him, and I'm I'm really interested in where

396
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: that goes.

397
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Speaker 3: It's a sinister twist and it's also like a very

398
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Speaker 3: I mean, this is the very real struggle of art.

399
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Speaker 3: It's the struggle of creators since the beginning of time

400
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 3: is like in order to make the projects create the

401
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 3: things that artists imagine, and often requires an infusion of

402
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: resources that they cannot get themselves. So what are the

403
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: trade offs? And I think this is a really this

404
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 3: is somewhat is really interesting to me. Yeah, Audi Irving

405
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 3: at Night, I'm so glad we see him again.

406
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: I just I'm so this is such a great role. Honestly,

407
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of drag.

408
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: Pros pro, but you know what the truth is, Like,

409
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: I was annoyed he didn't come back for The Penguin,

410
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Speaker 2: and I thought his reasoning was quite silly as we

411
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Speaker 2: talked about seeing as he played a serial killer in

412
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Speaker 2: the movie, a serial killer of women, his idea that

413
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: he didn't want to hurt women was kind of wild.

414
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: But you know what, I'm happy he didn't come back

415
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: for the Penguin.

416
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: One because I thought they recost him really, really well,

417
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: and two because I need him to be in this

418
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 2: show as van. Like, I am so just I don't

419
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: know if I've anticipated an episode more in a while

420
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 2: than the next episode where we know that he's gonna

421
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 2: meet you know, and his husband, And I just think

422
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: that's so so interesting.

423
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 3: So Irving spends the evening taking his paintings down. Then

424
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 3: he goes out in order to call someone from a

425
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 3: payphone and whoever this mystery person is. And now we're

426
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: getting like a key holes view into a much wider

427
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 3: kind of conspiracy and a deeper kind of and maybe

428
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 3: longer running kind of resistance to what's going on in

429
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 3: Lumen than what we saw in season one. Irving's talking

430
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 3: to someone but then notices that there's like a car

431
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Speaker 3: idling nearby and he's being watched. He goes over and

432
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: it's Audi Burt, and Bert is like, remember when you

433
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: came to my house screaming? What was that? What was

434
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 3: that about? And then he says, Donna's dreaming? Oh sleep,

435
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 3: And then Bert says, well, listen, you know I was

436
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 3: recently fired from Lumen and they told me it was

437
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 3: because my INNI got into a quote, unsanctioned erotic entanglement.

438
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden you show up at

439
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 3: my house screaming my name. And this, of course was

440
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 3: at the end of season one, when the Glasgow block

441
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: was removed and the Innies got out for brief periods

442
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 3: of time. He mentions. Bert mentions that his husband Fields

443
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 3: as like kind of furious about this reveal, and like,

444
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 3: what do you think? Bert says, like, we're ore innis

445
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: an item, and he says, like, listen, here's what we

446
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: should do. You come over to my house, meet with

447
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: me and my husband, and let's talk all of this.

448
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: I cannot wait to me that the ham did not

449
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: Totur has been all over the place teasing about it.

450
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: Too, and a really expensive wine they mentioned really also.

451
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's just because of the cost thing.

452
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just the conversation.

453
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 2: I just felt like there were so many layers to this,

454
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: like does but no more? Is he inviting him over

455
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 2: because he knows that having is like calling people about

456
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: his any like is he is?

457
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: This? Is this the example that Milchick obviously self servingly

458
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 3: laid out to Mark when he was trying to get

459
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: him back of someone who's inner, positive emotional life reaches

460
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: their audi. I don't know, you know, I think that's one.

461
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 3: You know, I think we are always predisposed. You can

462
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: think of a million.

463
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: Stories like this ghost yeah yeah, yeah.

464
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: One where it's like love transcends some kind of like barrier, right,

465
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 3: and we all want to believe that, But is that

466
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: what's happening here, it's very interesting to think about. Mark

467
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: returns home after work to find that Regab is rifling

468
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: through his late wife's stuff. She's looking very closely at

469
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: a necklace that was his wife, and she says, she's

470
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 3: hoping that, you know, because this reintegration bridge hasn't really

471
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: kicked in yet all the way. She's hoping that like

472
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: some item of his wife's will like shake Mark's memory

473
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: and make stuff start happening, so that maybe he can

474
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 3: remember if his any has seen her. Inside of Lumen,

475
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 3: Mark finds a box, apparently with an urn containing her ashes.

476
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 3: He's like, who's in there then? And Regabi is like,

477
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 3: that's like some other Lumin person and they've got all

478
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 3: pass to like I guess ashes, And she promises that

479
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 3: the reintegration will start working soon and they'll start getting

480
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: some answers, and Mark wants to know, like are they

481
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:48,239
Speaker 3: hurting her down there? And she's like, I don't know.

482
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden he hears his wife

483
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: say you're Audi and starts saying stuff about your out,

484
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: you're out here. Out of the bridge is starting to work,

485
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: and then he finds himself the out he flashed into lumin,

486
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: and he's in a dark hallway. He's walking towards the door.

487
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 3: He opens the door in there are the bright halls

488
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: of lumen and the area that seems to be like

489
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: around MDR, although in the hallways you can never tell

490
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: where the fuck they are. He turns around and he

491
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: finds his wife and then he's boom flashes back to

492
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: the outside. He's his audi back outside and he's crying,

493
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: and that's it.

494
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: Boom wow wow. Whate episode thoughts, Rose, Okay, fought well.

495
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 2: I think this show is really good, really engaging. I

496
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: love how much it has enticed the TV viewing population.

497
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: I think, for obvious reasons, we're all living through kind

498
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: of end stage capitalism right now. So I think that

499
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: a show that talks about the way your job can

500
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: consume you and the separation between your job and your

501
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: life and whether there really is any separation, is very interesting,

502
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: very relevant. I love how this has gotten the theorymongers

503
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: back again, because you know, I love make a theory,

504
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: so it's been very fun to see that.

505
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question. When we first.

506
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: Checked in on season two and the first episode, we

507
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: were kind of in that conversation again like with Lost,

508
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: like with the Yellow Jackets of like, are they gonna

509
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: give us answers? How are they gonna keep us interested?

510
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: Are they kind of longing out the mystery? How do

511
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: you feel about it at this point after watching episode

512
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: five and episodes what two to five.

513
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 3: I'm I think this show is really good and there's

514
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 3: a chance to be like, actually great. Mm hmm, I was.

515
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because episodes one and two one

516
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: almost feels like a step back. It almost feels like

517
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: season one point.

518
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, it's almost like they used to

519
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: do those two one point five x Men one point

520
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: five like DVDs where they tell you how in between

521
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: the addition.

522
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: To the point yeah, even to the even to the

523
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 3: point that ste Episode two is the first episode with

524
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 3: the new credit sequence, so it almost feels as if

525
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 3: and it's a cooling different episode, whereas episode one is

526
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: all inside and episode two is almost all outside, and

527
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: it created this feeling of almost like you're throwing away

528
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: an episode. But by episode three, and certainly by episode

529
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: four in the ort Bow, there's as I said, it's

530
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: not a lot of mystery box shows where the mystery

531
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 3: mechanic itself is fascinating to think about out beyond the story. Yeah,

532
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: and it's just like we crashed on an island. How

533
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: do we survive? Like yeah, and so what's emerged here

534
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: is or like.

535
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, Jacket's they crashed and they crashed.

536
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: In a wood and what does that mean to our life?

537
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: Now?

538
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 3: I'm not sure you know, like, but you hit on

539
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: it with the kind of larger metaphors about work and

540
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: workplace politics and capitalism and governance and all that kind

541
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: of stuff that's super interesting. What would it mean to

542
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: be severed? Is your inny? Would your any be legally

543
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 3: a person? All of these things are fashioning to think about.

544
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: And then you have actors. I was gonna say, walk off,

545
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: who are giving you performances where it's a two for

546
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: one across the board? You're getting the Any and the

547
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: audi and like, I mean, britt Lower has a like

548
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: has a Helly there's a Helli walk that is completely

549
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 3: different than the Helena walk, Like it's just.

550
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: By the.

551
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: Well, you know, lay to walk. Yeah, but it's true.

552
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: I feel like I would yeah, I feel like that

553
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: would be some gay maybe like the gate would be.

554
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: But I just think that as the characters have grown richer.

555
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: The central way the mystery works has become more interesting

556
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 3: as well. We'll be right back with the Omnibus after

557
00:32:50,600 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: a break, and we're back. Welcome the omnas where Lauren

558
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 3: understanding come together, and today we're going to talk about

559
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: the old as old as the written word. King among

560
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: the commoner's trope Milchik in order to calm the mdr

561
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: Crew tells them about this legend of the grip shooting,

562
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 3: the gris shooting grass shooting. Anyway, this king of Sweden

563
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: who would walk around and listen to his subjects in

564
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: order to understand their thoughts, their feelings, their concerns in

565
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: order to better govern them. Now, this is a trope

566
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: that you find inklings of it. Literally in the earliest

567
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: kind of writing about rulers, you will find these little

568
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: snippets about the ruler being concerned about what people are thinking.

569
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: And these kind of stories work on several levels. On

570
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: the one level, it's this idea of like benign kings

571
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: who care about their subjects, and it's a nice thought.

572
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 3: It's like you know that they're they're concerned about your

573
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 3: well being and their acting in with your with an

574
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: eye towards your benefit, right, and there's of course the

575
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 3: other level that the surveillance level, where this is also

576
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: the undercover boss thing exactly on the workers trying to

577
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 3: find out, trying to find out like what they're up to,

578
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: who's wasting time, who's breaking the law, who's breaking the rules.

579
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 3: And it also works on another level of social cohesion.

580
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: You know, be careful who you're rude to, because it

581
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: might be the king in disguise or the prince disguise.

582
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: Ends up getting turned into a into a beast.

583
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: United's rude to a to a witch in disguise.

584
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 3: There are a lot of examples of stories about rulers

585
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: throughout history who would walk them, bust their subjects, and

586
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 3: listened to them. Julius Caesar was purported to do this.

587
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: Napoleon me Napoleon might have the most actual, like eyewitness

588
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: reports of him doing this. There's, for instance, the writings

589
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: of his valet Louis Constant Werry, who mentions this several times.

590
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: He mentions once that Napoleon, while emperor, addressed as a

591
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 3: colonel and then went out and wrote around and he said, quote,

592
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 3: his Majesty in the uniform of a colonel rode every

593
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: day on horseback and one morning, while on the road

594
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 3: to Vienna, saw a clergyman approaching accompanied by a weeping woman,

595
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: and he asks them. He goes on to say, like

596
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 3: he ask them about like what's going on in their grief,

597
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: and is very charming to them. There are a lot

598
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 3: of stories about Napoleon doing this, so it seems like

599
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 3: he might have done it.

600
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: I just love that his valet was like just like

601
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: making notes.

602
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: He was like, I'm just like all He's like, I'm

603
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 2: just like writing about my boss, like just like spilling

604
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 2: the tea on his good deeds.

605
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: Very hilarious.

606
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 3: Several of the Ottoman emperors are purported to have done this.

607
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 3: In Carolyn Frankel's Osmond's Dream, she quotes from a poster

608
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: that appeared in the eighteenth century in Istanbul quote, you

609
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 3: should immediately venture out in public and disguise and mingle

610
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: with your subjects to get a sense of the public

611
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 3: mood and negotiate for peace. YadA, YadA, YadA, And all

612
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: of this might make you feel like you can understand

613
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 3: the utility of a story like this in the times

614
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 3: that they appeared, because again, it would one incentivize people

615
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: to be nice and nonviolent, to each other because you

616
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: never know what spies are lurking about. It might be

617
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: the king or the prince, or someone a general or

618
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: someone close to the king. And it also suggests like, oh,

619
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 3: your rulers care about you.

620
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he can. However, he's on the same level as you.

621
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.

622
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: But as we see with Helly in this episode, an

623
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: understanding of the plight of the lower classes does not

624
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: always breed beneficial circumstances and actions. Look no further than

625
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: the word villain in our language, which of course, in

626
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: current usage means the bad guy, the evil person, the

627
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: antagonist in the story. Villain has its roots in Latin.

628
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: It originally meant you know, a commoner, someone who lives

629
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 3: in a villa, or a villain. It was as early

630
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: as thirteen oh three used as a term of like

631
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: rude or harsh address, basically suggesting that the villain that

632
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 3: you are talking to is like a base, low born, uncouth, uneducated,

633
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: very potentially criminal person. And it continues from there, and

634
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: you see how the meaning which was originally commoner then

635
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 3: merges with class consciousness and what was certainly would have

636
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 3: been a extreme contrast in diet, in clothing and comfort

637
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 3: stuff in the ability to care for oneself, such that

638
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: the ruling class would be on average healthier, although there

639
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 3: are studies that say the average peasant in certain periods

640
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 3: of the Middle Ages was fine in certain areas. Whatever,

641
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 3: it's very clear from the evolution of the word villain

642
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 3: that your rulers are not necessarily talking great about you

643
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: all the time. And the way villain evolves from commoner

644
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: to rude, dirty criminal person to the evil person in

645
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: the story is I think illustrative of some of the

646
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: dynamics at play in Milchik's recounting of the Grab shooting.

647
00:38:51,440 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: We were at back with theories after this, Okay, theorious

648
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that I don't know.

649
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean definitely, I'm in a I don't know

650
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: which I think is the power of the show is

651
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: it still makes you interested even if you're not one

652
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure what's going on.

653
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: If we've moved past the oh is it?

654
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: And I think this is largely to do with episode

655
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 2: four that really felt like a step into the weirdness

656
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: and the wildness and the bigger story of severance that

657
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: I think is really interesting and past the kind of

658
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily I love theories. They're fun, but I'm

659
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: not like waiting for the show to reveal the truth.

660
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: I actually want to see where the story goes and

661
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: see the auties are doing and what the innies are doing.

662
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: That's the hook that made me realize, you know what,

663
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 3: this is like really good and has the it's got

664
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 3: the jew chance to be really great. I think so

665
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 3: that the show's creators, Adam Scott in particular, has already

666
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: discounted the cloning theory, which when it first popped up

667
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: and we were discussing it some weeks ago, I was

668
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 3: disappointed if I was like, you know, it may be clones,

669
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 3: but I hope it's not, because that is just like

670
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: really so simple. It's Spider Man, it's Star Wars, it's Founding,

671
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 3: it's been done so many time times.

672
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 2: Well, it's also like, so it would be the if

673
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 2: you showed this show to anyone and you've ever seen

674
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 2: a kind of like series like this or a sci

675
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: fi thing, and they go in the elevator and then

676
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: it's like very the you know what's the the Christopher

677
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: Nolan movie The Prestige, where it's like every single time

678
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: that they go in the elevator, they would be creating

679
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: essentially like a new clone that is, it's been done,

680
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: and also it would be very complex. But I do

681
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: feel like episode four did try and tease us in

682
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: that direction with the reveal of like the shadow versions

683
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: and also the.

684
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: Twins. Yeah, the twins. There's also like the constant goats

685
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 3: and the shepherds around the goats and their whole interesting

686
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: kind of Nietzsche legends that maybe the MDR folks have

687
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 3: pouches and that like all of that suggests mucking around

688
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 3: with DNA. I will say that, like the Cold Harbor project,

689
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 3: so various theories about this, the ones I've seen often

690
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 3: reference the Civil War Battle of Cold Harbor, and there's

691
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: a lot of theories now about like this is some

692
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 3: kind of extension of the Confederacy and they're trying to

693
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 3: act slavery been in a high tech way. I think

694
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 3: it's interesting.

695
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 2: I think that's very interesting, and it does align with

696
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: a lot of how people have kind of responded to

697
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: to the story of like, yeah, well, obviously this is

698
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: a set you would essentially are creating, you know, enslaved people,

699
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: but in a new way. I think that's a very

700
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: interesting I would be very open to see if they

701
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: had the juice to make that land in a way

702
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: that felt realistic and interesting.

703
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it's that, but who knows that Cold

704
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: Harbor Cold Spring Harbor in Long Island is a place

705
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 3: that's central to the evolution of our understanding of genetics.

706
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 3: It's where Watson and Crick disc structure of DNA. Let's

707
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 3: let's let's just.

708
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: Talk more about that, because I think that's a really

709
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 2: interesting has an interesting connection as well to the fact

710
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: that they've you know, we learned an episode for this.

711
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: The idea of Montalk. What is mon Talk? Why is

712
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: montalk important on island?

713
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: And Montalk is on Long Island and my mom loved,

714
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 3: love loves mont of course.

715
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: Mon Talk's like very beautiful. I've never been there, but

716
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 2: I've seen lots of pictures of it, and I will say,

717
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: then mon Talk is very interesting. And I don't know

718
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 2: if this is a you know, a Red Herring bar.

719
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: If you have watched Stranger Things and you're a Stranger

720
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: Things fan, if you've ever if you're a screenwriter who

721
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: has ever kind of looked at the original Stranger Things

722
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 2: story bible, the inspiration for Stranger Things is the Montalk project,

723
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 2: which is essentially a conspiracy theory that alleges that there

724
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: were like a series of United States government projects conducted

725
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: at Campiro or the Montalk Air Force Station in Montalk

726
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: for the purpose of creating psychological warfare techniques and allegedly

727
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 2: time travel, which of course is hugely influential on stranger things,

728
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: and that is what inspired the eleven kind of connection

729
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: to the US government and the other side of the

730
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: universe and the strange alien creatures, etc. But yeah, this

731
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: is since the eighties. So I think the kind of

732
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 2: the Cold Harbor, the Montalk, I think there's some kind

733
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: of connection that to these true sides of American history,

734
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 2: but also this conspiratorial side. So I think that that

735
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: the Cold Harbor call is a really good one that

736
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: Jason I also think we should.

737
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 3: I think there's I would also mention that while we're

738
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 3: on Long Island conspiracy theories, Yes, there is a there

739
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: is an island called Plumb Island that's off some couple

740
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 3: of miles off of Montalk of Orient Point, the North,

741
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: the north fork of the Eastern Tale of Long Island.

742
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: If you think of Long Island as a fish, and

743
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 3: it's where the government has a Animal Disease Research Center,

744
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: that there are a lot of conspiracy theories that lime

745
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: disease leaked out from there and across the Long Island Sound,

746
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: and that's why it appeared in Lime, Connecticut, right across

747
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 3: the bay there. That said, fun reference to Plumb Island

748
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: in Silence of the Lambs, when Clarice Starling offers Hannibal

749
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 3: lecter some you know, as a reward for helping the government,

750
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 3: he would get like two weeks at Plumb Island Disease

751
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 3: Research Center anyway, So there's yeah, are these other connections

752
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 3: very interesting.

753
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: Also, Let's so we talked about clones, Let's talk about the.

754
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: Other obvious one that came out after the ORTBO, which

755
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: is kind of the realization that ABO is obviously an

756
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: anagram for robot dieta egan is an anagram for AI generated.

757
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: Jason tell us your tell us your thoughts on anagrams

758
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: as clues, and.

759
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 3: It's never, it's never the fucking anagram having I just

760
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 3: feel like having been through having opened many mystery box

761
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 3: stories in my life and having written stuff and knowing writers. Yeah,

762
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 3: I always feel like the thing that a writer who

763
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 3: is writing something that's like a thriller or a mystery

764
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 3: based story. The thing that they would be terrified of

765
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: is that you could get the answer by unscrambling somebody's

766
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 3: fucking name.

767
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: Yeah right.

768
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: I just feel like it's never the anagram to me,

769
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: and generative AI, I mean like AI or AI generated

770
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 3: is like it just feels like a reach. This the

771
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 3: first draft of this story was written like in what

772
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen before Generative.

773
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: AI really dealing with that thing.

774
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even two years ago when this show first

775
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: came out, like it was that was like it was

776
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 3: a blip then, So I feel like it's not that.

777
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, So I do, like, you know, as

778
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: I love the quote that Adam Scott gave to EW

779
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: when it was talking about clones and he was like,

780
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: this sounds like what Luman would be in a super

781
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: boring version of Severance. I think a simple idea like

782
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: a robot is not necessarily going to be the answer.

783
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: But I do think it's kind of incredible that the

784
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 2: show is so interesting and layered that we're not just

785
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: stuck on the fact that there's multiple versions of these characters,

786
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: because that should be the big reveal, but actually we've

787
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: already moved past that okay, Jason, miss Swang Mark's child.

788
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 3: Potentially that would be.

789
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: Pretty I think they could take this show to pretty

790
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 2: bleak places.

791
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: I was always a fan in season one.

792
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: I was really enjoying a lot of the theories. I

793
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: liked the kind of Miss Casey is Grace's theory, and

794
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 2: that obviously end up being true. But it gets really

795
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: really bleak when you start to bring children into it,

796
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: and when you start to kind of why are they

797
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: so obsessed with Mark and his family?

798
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: Like, what do they know?

799
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 3: Mark is really okay, Well, here's my yeah. I think

800
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: that's somehow Mark and probably a lot of our other

801
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 3: MDR people, maybe not Dylan, are connected to the Egan

802
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 3: family in some way and an important in some way.

803
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 3: I have some sort of Mark certainly, I believe has

804
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: some sort of inate ability, some kind of innate insight

805
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 3: that allows him to arrange the numbers, whatever the fuck

806
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 3: the work there is they do in a way that's

807
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 3: beyond the ability of others, And so I feel as

808
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: if maybe what it is is an attempt to like

809
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: bring back to life the Egan ancestors, like the Egan patriarchy,

810
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 3: whose memories and life information is stored in DNA, fragmented

811
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 3: down the family tree and in different places. And what

812
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 3: they're trying to do is they refine, is assemble these

813
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 3: pieces somehow and through that process, not by cloning, but

814
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 3: by the severing process, bring this person at least their consciousness.

815
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: Maac.

816
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 3: That is my crazy theory.

817
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: I love that theory.

818
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna say, I do you feel like if

819
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: that is the case, I feel like they could be

820
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: making a very If almost everyone at who is severed

821
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 2: at Lumont is actually a descendant they would beat That

822
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: would be a really interesting commentary on like George Washington,

823
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, the way that people are still finding out

824
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: that they are descendants of famous slaver George George Washington.

825
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: And also I think that you're onto something very interesting

826
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: there because we are once again going back to our

827
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: favorite plot line, of course, that there was no issues

828
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: with Palpatine. Sometimes he's somehow he's returned.

829
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: You know.

830
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: I love to see these kind of the stories that

831
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 2: we're interested in retelling. What is it about the idea

832
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: of bringing back someone.

833
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: Really terrible that haunts us?

834
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: I think it's about the rejection of the horrors of

835
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: the past, you know, the rejection and I think that

836
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 2: the idea that the those things could come back, and

837
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: of course this feels incredibly resonant and awful in twenty

838
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: twenty five, Jason, I think, I mean, you might they

839
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: might be calling you for season three, because I feel

840
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 2: like that's a pretty fantastic theory.

841
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 3: I mean, the thing that I keep thinking about is

842
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 3: that we don't truly know how many times characters in

843
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 3: this show have been seven.

844
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: I think this is a big deal.

845
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 3: And I think there's a world in which because like

846
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 3: Helly is severed, she's basically a leader in the company.

847
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 3: We don't know if mister Drummond is severed, but he

848
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: might be. And if severing yeah is naturally and if,

849
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 3: as in any you would not have any knowledge of

850
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 3: the other parts of your life through this process, I

851
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 3: think there's I think there's a possibility that these characters

852
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: have quote unquote forgotten, do not know who they actually

853
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 3: are because of how many times potentially they've been severed

854
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 3: and this, and I think a lot of the stuff,

855
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 3: like the pictures the paintings, are an attempt to elicit

856
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 3: an emotional reaction that would show that that would somehow

857
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: break through these severing walls. Somehow to suggest that like, oh,

858
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 3: we got through to the real person. They're reacting to

859
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 3: this painting. Therefore that means, whatever, we mind this person

860
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 3: further for more stuff.

861
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 2: I think that's a great cool because I definitely had

862
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 2: been thinking about Irving. Has Irving been severed more than once?

863
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: And that was definitely something that people on the internet

864
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 2: were talking about, especially as he seems to have these

865
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 2: ways to communicate with his inny.

866
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: He's much Yeah, he's much more adept at navigating the

867
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 3: barriers of any audi and seems to have like a

868
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 3: much more established conspiracy as Mark struggles to like burn

869
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 3: images into his eyes, you know, of navigating these So

870
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 3: it's very interesting Irving, like finding out more about Irving. Yes,

871
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 3: I can't wait.

872
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: I think it's key, Okay, I do want to tag

873
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: in super producer Joel Monique quickly. We're going to take

874
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: a quick break and we'll be right back.

875
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: And we're back. Is she available? Is she available?

876
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: I really just just before we stop talking about theories,

877
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: I really would love for you to talk a little

878
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: bit about like the more philosophical readings of this and

879
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: kind of mystery box shows like The Leftovers, because there

880
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 2: is and always has been an idea that lumin is

881
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: some kind of like purgatory space and that maybe they're like,

882
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: you know, trying to they're reading the quality of people's

883
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 2: souls or like all these kind of deep, wild thoughts

884
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: that very much in that kind of leftover space.

885
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: So would you talk little bit about that?

886
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I loved hearing you guys sort of talk about

887
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 4: this idea of Lumen's space being not just like a

888
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 4: thought experiment on corporate life. But I think they've sort

889
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 4: of wriggled under something that's really horrifying for a lot

890
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 4: of Americans. Is something we've talked about for a long time.

891
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 4: But I think maybe we're feeling extra after a pandemic

892
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 4: that allowed us to break free from the confines of

893
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 4: our office space, and that's like how much of your

894
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 4: life are you selling to a corporation? But then also

895
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 4: by doing an any audi version of it, they've sort

896
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 4: of tapped into this idea of like how are you

897
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 4: different from other workers? You know, it's the thing that

898
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 4: haunts me as I watch it, the way people have

899
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 4: like even if you're any is different from you, if

900
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 4: you view them as a different person, there's this lingering,

901
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 4: haunting feeling of like they keep saying, just throw them away,

902
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 4: though they like that's you still like that's your body,

903
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 4: it's your time still technically like this is still minutes

904
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 4: of your life. And for them to be so disposable

905
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 4: on such a large scale, it's haunting. And I think

906
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 4: what makes this show really great is they I think

907
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 4: they stumble into things sometimes. There's been a lot of

908
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 4: discussion around Natalie. I have heard, but have not been

909
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 4: able to source properly, that the character of Natalie was

910
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 4: not written as black, or as mixed race or anything like.

911
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 4: She was just the character naturally, and that now we've

912
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 4: sort of stumbled backwards into this like constant conversation between

913
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 4: Miltchick and Natalie. These weird like even the cinematography scenes.

914
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 4: There's a scene where Miltchick is backlit so instantly, if

915
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 4: you backlight somebody to become darker, all of the light

916
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 4: is spilling on Natalie. It makes her lighter, And you're like,

917
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 4: is this on purpose? Are you trying to tend the

918
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 4: Because the space the show leads so much space open

919
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 4: for philosophy, both current to Jason's point and yours to

920
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 4: sort of higher more religious philosophy with these paintings in

921
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 4: the way the corporation has sort of structured itself with

922
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 4: these or do you like profits? Essentially all the leaders

923
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 4: are sort of prepositioned as being profits and you want

924
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 4: to follow their text almost in a biblical way. It

925
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 4: sort of gives the show this extra layer of mystery.

926
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 4: So in addition to having what's going on between the

927
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 4: Innies and Audi's what's the corporation's overall goal, you're also

928
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 4: sort of getting like a how do we treat just

929
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 4: like your average worker? Then I find this show so

930
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 4: deeply distroyed this sometimes I have a hard time pressing

931
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 4: play and sort of like in The Leftovers, I think

932
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 4: I waited like two years to watch the finale of

933
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 4: The Leftovers because I was just like, philosophically, I'm not emotional,

934
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 4: I just want who do they come back? Or no,

935
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 4: I'm just scared. I just I don't want people to

936
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 4: be hurt.

937
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 1: But it's so good.

938
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 2: Severance is definitely has that power over me because when

939
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: we were like, Okay, we got to do this, I

940
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I got to rewatch the episode.

941
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, like this is gonna break.

942
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 2: Me, and Okay, Joel, I'm also going to ask you

943
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 2: a question, how do you feel about Miltchick and Natalie

944
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 2: in the context we don't know if Natalie's severed, but

945
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 2: in the context of I've seen some very interesting arguments

946
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 2: and conversations about like should we feel sorry for them?

947
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: Are they complicit?

948
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: That very famous scene with Natalie and Miltchick where it

949
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 2: seems like she can't say something was really giving get

950
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 2: out vibes. But some people are like, well, they're working

951
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 2: for your you know, essentially a modern day slavery company,

952
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: So like what, how where do you stand on that

953
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: and where do you think that storyline's going to go?

954
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 4: I think Natalie is the lynchpin for a lot of things,

955
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 4: right like, because to me, if Natalie isn't severed, I

956
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 4: was reading theories on Reddit earlier ready, y'all are funny.

957
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 4: People were redda is they They were like, Natalie is

958
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 4: just a calms person. This is how calms people act.

959
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 4: She's not severed, she's not being.

960
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: Course or whatever.

961
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 4: She's a calms person. And by that they sort of

962
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 4: meant like she's a person who's very easily able to

963
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 4: separate her emotions and opinions about what the company should

964
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 4: be doing in exchange for being THEE of the company,

965
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 4: and that it doesn't really matter. And so I was like, Oh,

966
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 4: that's really compelling. And to me, I think mystery boxes

967
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 4: are so much more compelling when and I think we

968
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 4: talked about this a little bit when we talked about

969
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 4: the agency, like human stupidity is far more interesting to

970
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 4: me than like, oh it's a grand schemes, yeah yeah, yeah, yes.

971
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 4: And so to your point, I think personally, I think

972
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 4: Natalie is just a person. It's interesting to think that

973
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 4: she might be severed because of what's going on with Gemma,

974
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 4: But to me, she just appears. And I think that

975
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 4: you should not feel too bad for Natalie if you go,

976
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 4: if you're at the point where you're going on CNN

977
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 4: to make statements for a company, then yes, you are

978
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: absolutely complicit. That's complicit. You are. You are going on

979
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 4: into a very large basis. This is what's happening, and

980
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 4: it's the correct decision to be making. I am saying

981
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 4: it as of the mouthpiece. So for Natalie, no, unless,

982
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 4: of course she severed and not in control of herself,

983
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 4: in which case then yes, of course she should be

984
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 4: love her milkshakes to it is really really really like

985
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 4: the style of dress for him. The short sleeves automatically

986
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 4: denotes a lower level of management.

987
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 3: Get ready with Milchick, in my opinion, get ready for

988
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 3: the anekin like turn. There is something about Milchick. There

989
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 3: is something about Milchick where like he is a hard ass,

990
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 3: and I think he is in a lot of ways

991
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 3: the villain of this story. But he's evincing like empathy

992
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 3: for the innies in ways that always surprise me. He

993
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 3: seems to understand and speak to what they're going through

994
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 3: in a way that nobody else has an ability to do,

995
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 3: and that suggests to me that there is a big

996
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 3: turn coming.

997
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: Even like even like the gifts and the parties and

998
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 2: all of that, we don't really know if that's like

999
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 2: truly standard practice across Luman, Like that could be him

1000
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 2: trying the funeral, you know, these are things that he's

1001
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: willing to do. And also I means I know.

1002
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: Is everyone's favorite mil Chick look.

1003
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 4: It's obviously the white snow bunny fit.

1004
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 3: Like I just don't.

1005
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: I love that fit. I'm gonna go for the I'm

1006
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: gonna go for the tout le neck.

1007
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 3: Oh, he was looking crisp will be iconic at this point.

1008
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 3: I like the leather jacket, the motorcycle.

1009
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so many Alcock.

1010
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 3: Kind of a cool guy.

1011
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 4: Can I just say about Miltchick before we come the

1012
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 4: leather jacket.

1013
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: I have a lot of.

1014
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 4: Empathy Melchick as somebody who comes from generations of middle

1015
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 4: class Black Americans like this idea of both being a

1016
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 4: bridge for workers to a corporation and position I currently

1017
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 4: hold is tear like every time are like, oh my god,

1018
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 4: I'm so nervous, like I can't please, don't lose your humanity.

1019
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 4: To Jason's point, I really worry about it. That scene

1020
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 4: where he flipped in the elevator so fast and minute

1021
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 4: he was cornered and kind of being called out. He

1022
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 4: was like, fine, yeah, I'm gonna crank its tent. But

1023
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 4: we also have a feeling that the elevators are maybe

1024
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 4: their most monitored space. And if that's the case, this

1025
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 4: is a performance for someone else's I think miltcheck might

1026
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 4: that was for public consumption, for sure. I think Milchik

1027
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 4: is feeling something else outside of this company. He has

1028
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 4: an angle and agenda. What I can't tell you is

1029
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 4: if he believes he can fix things from the inside

1030
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 4: what I'd like to call the black cop problem, or

1031
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 4: is it that he can take it down from the inside,

1032
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 4: and he's nefariously setting things up. I don't know yet.

1033
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 3: I think he thinks that this project is overall good,

1034
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and that though it causes significant pain

1035
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 3: and suffering to the innies, that if they can just

1036
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 3: get through this, it'll be worth it. And I think

1037
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 3: at some point he's and I think at some point

1038
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 3: he's going to question that because the way he again,

1039
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 3: the way he operates, is so interesting to me. He's

1040
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 3: clearly convinced the board to give him wide latitude to

1041
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 3: do a lot of different stuff on his own accord,

1042
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 3: and that's really interesting, particularly as basically like the new

1043
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 3: floor manager in the wake of what was essentially like

1044
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 3: a truly disastrous corporate and pr event. So he has

1045
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 3: a lot of pull in there, and that suggests to

1046
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 3: me that they one he is he understands this world

1047
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 3: in a way that he's able to communicate that's compelling

1048
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 3: to the board. And also for some reason, the board

1049
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 3: see him as the perfect person to do this. And

1050
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 3: none of those things have been cleared up yet and

1051
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see where it goes.

1052
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: So good?

1053
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 4: Did Harmony cord Belle great when you'd find out? I

1054
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 4: just uh, there's a lot of theories on this show.

1055
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 4: It's delicious. I'm glad you guys decided to recap it.

1056
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 4: It's going to be a fun rest of season two.

1057
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 2: On Tuesday on x ray Vision, we are diving into

1058
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 2: our first ever club. There's still a little time to

1059
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 2: read Born Again before the episode airs, so make sure

1060
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: to check that out from your local comic shop or

1061
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 2: get from.

1062
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: Your local library.

1063
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, we'll be talking about sever and season two,

1064
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: episode six, what is going on at Lumen? And On

1065
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: Thursday were recapping the first season of Dead Evil, the

1066
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 2: Netflix series that is now on Disney Plus, and it's

1067
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: just as brutal as ever.

1068
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 3: That's it for this episode.

1069
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 1: Bye.

1070
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Rosie

1071
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 3: Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

1072
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Korfman.

1073
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 3: Our supervising producer is Abusafar.

1074
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent, Dean Johnson and Baywag.

1075
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 3: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez with alternate theme

1076
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 3: songs by Aaron Kauffman.

1077
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and

1078
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 2: Hi I Discord Moderator