WEBVTT - How Hollywood Dealmaker Thomas Dey Views the Streaming Wars 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:13.039 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business Varieties podcast featuring 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:17.079 conversations with industry leaders about the business of media and 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.639 entertain I'm Todd Spangler with Variety Today. Our guest is 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:26.159 Thomas Day, President and CEO of ACF Investment Bank and 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.760 a top deal maker in the media and entertainment business. 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.320 Thomas Welcome, Hi Todd. Thank you. So you co founded 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.080 a c F in you've since then broke her numerous 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.159 M and A deals across the sector. Um So, just 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.880 maybe start off by saying, what is the lens through 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.280 which you look at the industry well as as the 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.680 listeners can tell from our voice. I starked it in 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.680 the UK. UM really the start of the TV production 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.360 industry if I consider it back in two thousand and 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.839 three when the Communications Act came in transferring the rights 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:12.360 of TV production creations from the broadcast to the actual 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.559 the producers and the creators, and that was the real 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.680 start of the industry because these companies became very valuable. 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.039 Um So, I think my perspective is really one of 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:29.080 spanning sort of two decades, and I've seen the industry 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:35.640 morphing and changing from broadcast to cable and now to stream. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.479 My first question here is there's been a definitive shift 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:45.679 in viewing habits during the coronavirus pandemic um and how 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.960 media companies are reaching consumers. What what are your thoughts 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.680 here on how permanent this shift in behaviors and what 0:01:54.760 --> 0:02:00.320 are the implications for your business. There couldn't be a 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.160 more fundamental shift target that has occurred really in the 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.880 last five years, and the reason for that is that 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.960 the whole business model itself has shifted. If we think 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:17.920 back to free to air linear viewing, people turn on 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.240 the TV and what's on the TV they watch, and 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.680 in between the shows there's adverts that are being shown 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.480 to them, and that is the real generator of cash 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.960 for the broadcast. So the relationships actually between the broadcasters 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.760 stroke network and the advertiser and the actual consumers as 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:41.120 a byproduct or actually to product themselves of that exchange 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.600 because they're watching the adverts. So we've had this very 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:50.440 complicated model for fifty seventy years or longer where actually 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.919 the consumers were a secondary consideration and just by their 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.520 volume of numbers they were considered important. Now this has 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:05.840 changed completely to the consumers becoming the subscribers and they're 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:11.160 directly engaging with the digital platforms to see the kind 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.320 of content they want to see, and they're controlling what 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.480 they see and when they steer UM. And this is 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.680 being distributed now through quite a clever algorithm as opposed 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:26.320 to um you know, expensive marketing. So the whole model 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.360 has changed fundamentally to what I believe to be a 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.600 superior product at a lower pricing. Well, it hasn't completely changed. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.800 You still have TV networks. They're still large audiences for 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.920 linear television. There's still players in the game, aren't they. 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.720 I agree, and I think free to air and broadcast 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:50.920 and curated content will always have a place on our schedule. 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.000 But I think that especially your question earlier about the pandemic, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.440 people are talking about what are they watching on the 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:04.240 streaming platforms more than anything else. Right, Yeah, so I 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.960 can't It's difficult to know where the new sort of 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.560 cable cutting numbers will will end up, but I think 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.960 it will be a lot deeper and a lot lower 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:19.440 than people think. It's an unstoppable trend, no doubt about it. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:24.360 And you're seeing companies like Disney or Media, NBC Universal 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.000 in the United States, they're all shifting to point towards 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.240 this direct model going forward. I mean, they're putting all 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.320 of their chips on that piece of felt. I think, yeah, 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.960 it's very exciting. I mean every week you're seeing a 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:43.279 new ark in in in the paper of variety, in 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.440 magazines talking about the shifts that are occurring. And these 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.520 shifts are in the institutions that have been around for 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.440 a hundred years and now they're all changing their platform 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:59.239 to really focus on content because the content then feeds 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.159 into the digital platform. And we're seeing this right acrost 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.960 the studios, right across the broadcasts, and right acrost the networks. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.200 Talk a little bit, tell us about the deal flow 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.800 and the piece of the deals that you've had in 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:18.400 the last say nine months during this during this lockdown periods, 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:20.760 it has it gone up as it stayed the same. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.920 You know, we've seen productions halting has had had an 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.000 effect on the types of deals you're able to do. 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.440 I think I think two things. I think one one 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.120 is that the types of companies that were reliant on 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:38.760 large production crews going to far away places. These were 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.680 the sort of traditional shows that were creating the profits 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.880 that sold the companies that we are acting for and 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.800 when COVID hit that, we had about ten deals in 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:54.400 progress and eight of them were instantly on hold because 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:59.040 the buyers had considerable issues in their own businesses where 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.520 they were fighting fires and trying to work out what 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.760 to do. And meanwhile our clients, the sellers were no 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.279 longer confident of their pipeline or their production. So it 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.600 was it was a complete seizing up of the industry UM, 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:21.159 and I expected things to completely hold UM And what 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.479 actually happened is those types of deals did hold. So 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.120 I was right in that regard. I think where I 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.080 was surprised, they were pleasantly surprised. A bunch of other 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.240 deals didn't move forward, and people shifted their focus, and 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.800 we shifted our focus to try and find companies that 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.200 didn't have that lines, so companies that had other ways 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.200 of growing or other ways of being. Now, let's talk 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.320 about some of the recent deals that you've been UM 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:54.839 advising on. You were you were instrumental as as an 0:06:54.880 --> 0:07:00.240 advisor for Charlie Brooker and Annabel Jones, creators of Black Mirror. UM. 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:04.080 They did a more deal with Netflix for their new 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:10.120 in the production company Broken Bones. This was reported to 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.480 be a deal worth over a hundred million dollars. I 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.720 don't know you can comment on that, but what what 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:21.440 were the dynamics in that particular that you that you 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.240 helped them secure. Of course, to the terms of the 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.240 deals are confidential, but what I can told about is 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.080 that that type of deal was exactly the kind of 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:35.280 deal I'm talking about. Charlie Brooker and a Bell Jines 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.440 are the creators of Black Mirror. They did so at 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.240 their previous company that was an in them all um, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:46.040 and Netflix was looking for a relationship with them and 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.800 looking for a way to create compelling content. So this 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.000 was a deal that was not reliant on huge teams 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.680 of people and the historic performance. Who was very much 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.560 a deal looking forward and working with two of the 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.760 most count of people in the industry and a ready 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.320 marrying them up with one of the most exciting digital platforms. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.840 So this is all about growing a business, going forward 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:16.080 and creating more content, you know, like the black enfranchises. Now, 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.720 once you seem kind of water finding and it's its 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.480 own level, let's say, and you've got whatever it is, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:30.040 h five or seven or ten global streaming services, I mean, 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.200 are we going to see a pullback on you know, 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:37.360 these kinds of pretty large overall deals with creators or 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.040 is the competition just going to get fiercer for this 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.720 kind of talent. I mean, I think that Netflix is 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.640 one of the earlier initiatives of these types of deals, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.960 and they've been the most active in the sort of 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:55.280 earliest time period, and some people would say they have overpaid. 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.160 I don't know. I mean, with all of these things, 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.080 I think people are often accused, including the networks and 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.560 broadcasters that we've sold over a hundred companies too. They 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.000 always talk about are they overpaying? And I think the 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.640 the question is are there companies that aren't doing enough 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.200 to meet the new challenges that are And if you 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.960 don't do enough, what is the price of that? Because 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.360 I think, you know, capturing the top talent in the 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:27.720 market is always going to be um, you know, a 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.800 sure way of guaranteeing your future, whereas being you know, 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.520 maybe more conservative with your investment means you might not 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.320 be here. And I think, you know, so we've got 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.400 to look at these shows and recognize that with a 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.079 piece of paper and a pen, these writers can create 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.800 billion dollar franchises. So it's really hard how to to 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.520 assess how much to pay up front to gain that 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.720 kind of watching. We were speaking a little bit earlier, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.720 and I don't know bridging your mouth, but you were 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:07.920 saying that it's, um, it's become uh the case that 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:13.000 where you have a more agile type of production, one 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.440 that doesn't require a lot of infrastructure, that those deals 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:21.640 have been um been more fruitful in getting that you mentioned. 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.480 I think the Bear Grills UH deal with with Bana 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.920 J tell us a little bit about what that was, 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:33.439 what that involved, and why that happened at this particular time. Sure, 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.640 I mean, I think the deal with Bear and Bandage 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:42.760 closed slightly prior to COVID impact, but I think it's 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:47.000 a very good example. Certainly, I know you still working 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.360 with them and content that they've been doing very well 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:56.679 going forward because there's a very small production team that 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:01.160 is being dropped by helicopter into the Amazon with some 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.680 fortunate or unfortunate leader of the country who then survives 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.640 with them for ex period of time. So this is 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.480 very much a sort of small group of people that 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.760 can create some quite exciting content without having huge crews 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.360 necessarily interacting with each other. So I think that the 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.800 Natural Studios, which is what the opportunity was called was 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:32.400 about creating global content and really encouraging outdoor activity and 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.680 entertainment across the world. And man j has got a 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:41.040 very huge network production companies in each territory. So it 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:42.960 was a good marriage and it was a good idea. 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.880 I should note before I forget that you've been recognized 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:51.000 in Varieties Dealmakers Impact Report for the last seven years 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.160 and I just wanted to mention that. But on the 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.959 topic of UM, you know, industry consolidation. Obviously we've seen 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:06.000 in Disney buying the bulk of century backs. UM you're seeing, 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:11.560 you know, those those types of UM massive deals. Does 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:16.320 that does that put the brakes on M and A 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.959 in the industry or does it accelerate, you know, the 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:25.480 scrambled for positioning by other players. I think if you 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:31.040 look at the last kind of ten fifteen years UM, 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.959 there was there was a steady growth of channels, there 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.680 was a steady growth of cable, there was a high 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:42.240 viewing interaction. But content became dispersed across many channels and 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:47.400 as a result, the the broadcasts and the networks became 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.280 very risk adverse, spending huge amounts of money on expensive 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.679 script and shows that after episode two could be canned, 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.280 So really that was the birth of the reality TV 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.960 and the sort of local lost higher volume viewing UM. 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.800 And as the advertising revenues kind of went down as 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.439 the viewers went down, this pressure but more and more 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.600 pressure on the broadcast network and there was a downward 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.800 spiral where their budgets went down and their viewing figures 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.240 went down. So sixteen, seventeen and eighteen were not good 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.560 years for anyone in the industry. Um, you bring into 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.680 eight twenty in the streaming platforms which have been preparing 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:34.000 for their debutant outing suddenly come into the market and 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.320 start spreading the kind of money we haven't seen for 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.959 a decade. UM. It's completely changing the industry to brought 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:46.280 back scripted, high end content from people like Left Bank 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:51.079 who produced The Crown, right across the board UM. And 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:56.480 I think I think the industry has actually allowed more 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.120 and more of that money to pour into the hands 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.760 of the creator is the onscreen town and the writers. 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.559 So I to see a very vibrant next five to 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:11.320 ten years as people via for those people's um sort 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.120 of attension and relationships, and I don't see any shortage 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.040 of cash coming space. I do think that if you're 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.720 going to compete in this territory, you have to have 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:26.040 access to huge budgets or really niche content, So you've 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:30.200 become a specialist in an ultra sort of niche aspect 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.160 of the content, otherwise that people in the middle will 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:37.560 just be sucked up. We've been talking about new productions mainly, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.880 but let me ask you just a bit about the 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:44.800 value of library content. Um are you seeing that increase 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:50.640 or these sort of libraries of bankable you know, popular 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:55.000 titles or maybe even long tail titles. Is that the 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.680 kind of thing that has increased in value given the 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.920 race to director conterior streaming, Yes, exactly. I mean I 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.000 think if you look at the music industry, it seems 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.800 to be about ten years ahead of the content industry. 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.360 And when the music industry went online, initially there was 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.440 a complete tale of the record sales and everybody bemoaned 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.840 the loss of the whole industry, and actually they said 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:25.240 the only thing that was happening was live events. And 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.160 then the streamers came on board, you know, with with 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.120 Spotify and Amazon Music and all these companies, and they 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.040 took the pricing point of music down to a point 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.040 where everyone went, you know what, I don't mind this. 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.160 I'm willing to pay eight dollars a month ten dollars 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.520 a month to listen to anything I want to listen 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.640 to at any point. And what that did was create 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.200 nostalgic listening. So you and I initially listened to all 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.200 the funky news stuff, and very quickly we started going 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.240 back to the seventies, eighties and nineties and listening to 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.480 things that we haven't even thought of listening to. So 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.040 all these music library is weren't from value less to 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.200 generating income, and a lot of people must have got 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.760 shocks where they suddenly started getting these big royalty checks. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.560 I think the same thing happened with libraries that for 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.720 a while they were mismanaged and left in small businesses 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.640 that couldn't distribute them very effectively, so they were often 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.240 assets sitting in the wrong hands, in the wrong country 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.600 and people couldn't actually access. And I think now, through 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.840 the ease of the digital platforms, these films are now 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.760 becoming absolutely valuable. So we're seeing them and shoot up 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.000 in value, and we're seeing a lot of people let 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.920 go of them and allow them to be arriving at 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.400 the home. In the commodities now pulling back just a 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.520 little bit here in the seismic shifts in the industry 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.320 that we've been talking about, who are the winners, Who 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:54.000 are the losers? That's a big question, um. I mean, 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.440 I think with I think it's the players in the middle. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.840 I think that, um, I think that people whose supply 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.840 sort of okay services to a small group of people 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.040 who will get washed away. And I think there's going 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.240 to be very dominant, very big players that will have 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.840 largely global networks that can be more efficient to reach 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.480 more corners. And then I think there will be ultra 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.560 niche providers of content to specialize in narrow areas that 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.280 are hard to get, and I think everyone in between 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.080 will be sucked up to go out of business, will 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.760 be sucked up in some bigger entities. So those are 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:38.600 potential acquisition targets. You had mentioned before that that your 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:45.159 belief is that even with this uh you know, stampede 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.800 towards streaming, there's still going to be a need to 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.640 monetize these entertainment properties off platform. What do you mean 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:56.080 for that, and what are the implications, um, you know, 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:00.639 for theatrical exhibition, given that we're still all in large 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:05.199 parts of the world under lockdowns and theaters are not 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.400 an open mind. Yeah, I mean, I think what's happening 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:15.520 is as the streaming platforms are launching and competing with 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:20.280 each other, there is an acceptance that they have to 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:25.480 consider off platform monetization and what that means is it's 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.760 not just feeding it to the subscribers, but it's actually 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.760 looking for other ways to monetize that intellectual property. And 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.520 as we've seen across the board, interntional property can be turned, 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.800 as you said, into the article, that can be turned 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.639 into live performances, that can be turned into immersive theater. 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.719 It can be books that can be merchandizing. There can 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.840 be so many sort of extensions from intellectual property. But 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.080 it's just a fact that like the big studios before them, 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.199 they will slowly increase their their efforts to monetize. And 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.680 one of the as we talk about is whether they're 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.600 going to actually end up having a distributional because a 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.480 lot of the digital platforms affected in the countries that 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.359 have the infrastructure. There's lots of countries that don't have 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.399 the infrastructure. So they're actually talking about will they go 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.320 sort of downstream and start having a distribution on or 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.639 even at broadcast style that will see the broadcast to 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:28.399 those terrace ms. One other question on industry trends. Do 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:34.399 you see, you know, this coupling of UM telecommunications and media, 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.399 is that a model that's going to survive? You know, 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:43.439 podcast with NBCU and now Sky and a T and 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:48.879 T with direct TV and Warner Media. Are those vertical 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.320 integrations advantageous to those companies through to those some have 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.440 become a liability. Well, I'm completely biased with my answer, 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.919 but I do believe it's got a small amount of 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:05.840 actual grounding. UM. I think that the technology platforms are 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.840 becoming a homogeneous and a little bit like you lay 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.720 the cabling, and you know, once you've laid the cabling, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.360 what do you put down it? I think that's the 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.840 issue that both technology and telecomspects, which is, you know, 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.600 you can come up with a smarter piece of technology 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.080 that slightly improves the quality of telecoms, but what do 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.520 you Why are people coming to you? What is the 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:33.200 originality between the different providers? As the service becomes more 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.000 and more homogeneous between the groups, the one thing that 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.960 distinguishes them is access to what comes down those pipes, 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.000 what gets them to you? And I think content is 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.520 something that everybody identifies with. It's quite funny when you 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.960 talk to someone you know about a bioscience business or 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:56.520 about even automotive, unless they're really enthusiasts, you can lose 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.080 them with in three months. But if you talk to 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.680 some about coming own and switching on the TV and 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.040 watching a stream or watching a broadcaster. Everyone has a 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.000 personal view as long as a business view. Um. And 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:12.320 I think that in this world, content is just critical. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.040 People talk about it. It's the new politics. It's acceptable 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.719 to talk about your favorite show of the dinner policy. 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:24.480 Try talking about politics now well. UM. And in this 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:30.800 new world, data obviously has become a big piece. You know, 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.919 it's it's kind of a crown jewel. And you know 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.960 that's why you're seeing companies wanting to own that first 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:43.240 party data. Um does this this? Doesn't that put more 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.560 leverage on the side of the content buyer as opposed 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:51.359 to the content seller. That's interesting. I was planning on 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.879 going on holiday and they said you have to have 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.760 a COVID test and in the small print it said 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:01.760 they own your DNA information. And I was quite alarmed 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:05.760 by that, as that could be a According to you, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:07.879 our horari that that would be the next bit of 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:12.560 data we're giving away with content. I think your question 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:16.440 is probably aimed at the US, where the buyers or 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.040 the commissioners of the content usually end up owning the 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.960 intellectual property. In other countries in the world, it can 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:27.199 be the creators that end up owning intellectual property. And 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:32.080 what we've seen in a very competitive environment is that 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:36.440 as you the creator can negotiate with more than one party, 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:41.359 you can start having quasi ownership rights and that could 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.440 be having points on the back end, that could be 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.880 having a lifetime right to produce it, and it can 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.800 even be a share of income from the content. So 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.320 I agree with you. I think that in this country 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.240 there is definitely a vault of content that is created 0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:02.080 by the by has. But I still think that new 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:06.960 content pips the day in terms of attractive audiences. It's 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:11.280 about that renewal, is yeah. Right. Um, so a c 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:15.119 F does have a global per view. You're you're relatively 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:23.080 small investment bank, but you're you've got transatlantic operations here. Um, 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:28.439 are we seeing deals more global in nature now that 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:34.679 you have h companies that do span global global operations? 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:40.880 And does that does that change the nature of um 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:44.080 of how those deals are done. Okay, that's a good question. 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.960 I mean we we kind of operate in space of 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:50.880 about fifty million dollar deals going up to that two 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.719 billion dollar deals, and most of the investment banks who 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.000 operating in space do not have the transatlantic footprint. You 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.520 don't have a global from footprint. But I've actually found 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:06.840 that a significant number of ideals involved parties selling from 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.480 UK Europe into the US and people from the US 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:13.560 selling into Europe UK. It just seems to be a 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:17.240 lot of transatlantic interest, both in terms of the style 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:21.040 of content and the wish to access the sort of 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:25.280 consumer or the subscribers. So I think we are unique 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:28.440 in that regard that we maintain that global presence that 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.360 can service deals of that songs. Why do you think 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.960 there is that interest in getting foreign product, if you will, 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:39.399 to a domestic audience. Well, I definitely know that in 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:43.760 the UK and in Europe. The idea is that the 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:47.959 budgets in the US are just significantly high. Um So 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:51.520 there is a lot of golden eyed sort of envy 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:53.040 that they're going to If you want to make a 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:55.159 lot of money, you have to come to the US 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:58.240 and be able to access those budgets at the same 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:01.800 time is extreme only hard to do that from the UK, 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:03.720 you know, because you have to set up a team, 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:06.560 you have to access to the market. The US market, 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:10.879 they certainly welcome Europeans into their content world, which you 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:12.760 need to have a base here and you need to 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.000 be accessible. And then I think for the US, because 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.959 they have such a strong dominance in the content space, 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:23.199 they like the uniqueness and the sort of idea generation 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:26.120 that comes out of the UK or Europe. I mean, 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.439 God Mora is a good example of a show that 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:34.720 was in Italian and had subtitles. It totally increased the 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:38.639 interest in the Italian based content. And and just to 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:43.000 tell our listeners, that deal involved to Go More sold 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:46.879 to Sorry Go Mora was produced by Catalet who sold 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:50.320 to my TV, and it has done very well. I think, 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.360 I think it has and we've recently a deal with 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.439 the Spanish speaking great called the Immigrant, who we helped 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:02.840 launch their product I think last year. Yeah, it's interesting, 0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:05.400 I mean, I think you you had pointed out that 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.960 that foreign language content it's really been this second tier 0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:14.600 creature for the last couple of decades, and now you're 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:19.399 seeing a lot more interest in that um from across 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:22.040 the landscape. Correct, and what I'll say, I'll slit you 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:23.679 just bet. I don't want it to be viewed as 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:28.160 second tier content. What I'll say is that the English 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:31.800 speaking broadcasters put it into a chair or two interest 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.639