1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome do Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 3: part two in our series on the ore powered galleys 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: of the ancient World. Now, if you haven't heard part 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 3: one yet, you might want to go listen to that first. 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 3: But in the previous episode we talked about Ptolemy, the 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 3: fourth of Egypt's great war ship, which allegedly was built 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 3: in the third century BCE. We have no physical remains, 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 3: only historical descriptions, but Rob what were some good details 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 3: on that. It allegedly had like thousands of people manning it. 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just an unreasonable amount of oars and oars men, 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: but would have been essentially an ancient world aircraft carrier, 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: though of course not for aircraft, but for at least troops, 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: if not maybe siege equipment. The general consensus has often 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: been that this is not a practical war vessel, but 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: just a way of showing off. So we talked a 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: little bit about that, and my intention is to eventually 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: come back to it and look at some more scholarship 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: about it. Once we finished talking about all of the 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 2: operational war vessels of the ancient world in the Mediterranean. 23 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 3: Yes, we will have to return to the big one, 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 3: but also last time we talked about the difference between 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: paddling and rowing, and thus the difference between paddles and ores. 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: You paddle with a paddle and you row with an ore, 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: the main difference being that an ore is locked or 28 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: pinned to the boat's hull itself some way, and you 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: typically row facing backwards while you paddle facing forwards. We 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 3: also talked about some prehistoric evidence of the use of 31 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 3: wooden paddles for water transport in Stone Age Northern Europe, 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: including one eight to nine thousand year old paddle, and 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 3: we also talked to some of the pressures leading to 34 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 3: the development of different mechanisms for powering watercraft in the 35 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 3: ancient Mediterranean, like wind versus human powered propulsion. And we're 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 3: back with part two to continue the discussion today. 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, as we started getting into in the last episode, 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: the ancient Mediterranean was this vast inland sea ringed by 39 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: coastal lands that both did various powerful and established civilizations 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: as well as emergent powers. Coastal cultures largely contained to 41 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: this inland sea developed means to travel and exploit these waters. 42 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: But the development of wind power was a huge game changer, 43 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: allowing for greater use of the sea for transportation despite 44 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: the unpredictable nature of Mediterranean winds. So with all of 45 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: this we get the establishment of greater trade routes between 46 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: these various powers, and islands like Crete also become more 47 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: and more important given all this traffic. But this also 48 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 2: means that you know, especially out of ancient Egypt and 49 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: out of Ancia in Mesopotamia, again you have the emergence 50 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: of all these marine trade routes and this ends up 51 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: spilling over into conflict as well, conflict over these trade 52 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: routes and around these trade routes, and we get like 53 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: a couple of key developments in maritime conflict technology. The 54 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: first one is pretty obvious and simple, and that is, okay, 55 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: if you have a ship that can carry cargo, it 56 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: can also carry troops. And so the first warships were 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: basically just cargo ships carrying armed forces, and we have 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: various accounts of this. Ancient Egyptian record speak of this 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: as far back as twenty four to fifty BCE. That's 60 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: when the pharaoh Sahure that means he who is close 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: to Ray the god used a cargo fleet to carry 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: an army to the Levantine coast. This would be the 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: earliest of multiple examples of the ancient Egyptians using seapower 64 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: to transport troops. These would have been big, lumbering troop 65 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: movements by sea. So the flip side of the coin 66 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: here is you would also see the use of sail 67 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: and or driven rovers, so small faster vessels. They could 68 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: be used to do things like deliver a message, gather intel, 69 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: also attack coastal targets or even unprotected vessels. 70 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: A theme I've noticed before, which is that sometimes the 71 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 3: line between naval warfare and piracy is quite thin. 72 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, it depends on who's doing the analysis, 73 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: and we'll have more examples of that as we go here. 74 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: One of my sources in this that I cided in 75 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: the last episode is the book The Ancient Mariners by 76 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: Lionel Cassen, who is one of the one of the 77 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: key authorities of the twentieth century on ancient Mediterranean sea 78 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: powers and so forth, and he wrote that these vessels 79 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,559 Speaker 2: were likely that these rovers, these smaller faster vessels were 80 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: likely as old as the big cargo ships, but our 81 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: written records of their usage and conflict only goes back 82 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: to like the fourteenth century BC. But they're quite telling. 83 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: We get this idea of fleets of sea rovers utilized 84 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: to disrupt cross sea communication and maritime trade, as well 85 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 2: as to eventually enforced blockades. Syrian naval units were thus 86 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: able to disrupt the link between Egypt and Biblos, and 87 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: you also had full fledged sea powers like the Minoans 88 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: and then the Mycenians who were able to hold their 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: own and then some against powers like Egypt. It also 90 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 2: meant that an age of rich over sea trade largely 91 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: entered into an age of like rampant sea rovers. So 92 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: you know, we see some of the first recorded sea 93 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: battles during this rough time period we're looking at here, 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: such as Rameses the Third's defeat of an invading fleet 95 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: of the Sea peoples the Battle of the Delta in 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: eleven seventy five BCE. 97 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: Now, an interesting thing about this particular battle is that 98 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: I've read it described in some sources as being not 99 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: that different from a land battle, just taking place on 100 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: top of the water. 101 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you get that from the Egyptian illustrations of 102 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: the battle, the way that it ends up rolling out. 103 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: It's a couple of basics on the way this went down. Now, 104 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: on the subject of the Sea People's much has been 105 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: hypothesized about who they were and where they came from, 106 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: but they definitely invaded Eastern Anatolia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, and 107 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age and were 108 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: particularly active during the thirteenth century BC. There are different 109 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: ways to look at them, from a confederacy of different 110 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: seafaring raiders to varying groups of people's displaced by late 111 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: Bronze Age disturbances. So it's an entire topic undo itself. 112 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: But this would have been the second war between the 113 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: Egyptians and the Sea People's case in his book, wrote 114 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: that it was very much it seems like a mass 115 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: migration and not at all like the smaller raids that 116 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: Egypt had pretty much always had to contend with on 117 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: their coastal border. It consisted of two main forces working 118 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 2: their way down the coast toward Egypt at this point, 119 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: the main body that moved by land and the accompanying 120 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: fleet that largely kept pace along the coast. Now, as 121 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: far as the actual engagement, the way it is said 122 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: to have gone down is as follows. So the forces 123 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: of Egypt had just defeated the forces of the Sea 124 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: peoples on land in Syria and then rushed back across 125 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: the sea to Egypt with the Sea People's in pursuit, 126 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: and in doing so drew their fleet into an ambush 127 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 2: at the mouth of the Nile. And this would have 128 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: been via an ambush fleet, but also supporting fire from 129 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,119 Speaker 2: the shore as well, but in both cases to your point, 130 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: this all very much mirrored a land battle. So you know, 131 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: people on ships shooting arrows at each other, people on 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: land shooting arrows of the ships, flaming or otherwise boarding 133 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: actions and so forth. Again, a lot of this is 134 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: what we gather from ancient Egyptian illustrations of the conflict. 135 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: Yes, there's one quite famous illustration of this battle that 136 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: is busy to look at. 137 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the only thing that's instantly clear is which one 138 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: is the pharaoh. You can figure that out pretty easily. 139 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: He's the big one. 140 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: The end result here is that it's a total Egyptian 141 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: victory over the Sea People's, you know, not wiping them out, 142 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: but defeating them enough to where they have to retreat 143 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: and are apparently unable to reach so far south again 144 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: as to attempt at the conquest of Egypt, now elsewhere 145 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: in the Mediterranean, more or less around the same time, 146 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: and as related in the Iliad, you have, of course 147 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: the whole business with Troy. Of course, as we've discussed 148 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 2: in the show before, also their caveats about our understanding 149 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: of the historical aspects of of Troy as opposed to 150 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: the literary context here. But for the most part, you know, 151 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 2: we have this story of a like a Greek alliance 152 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: taking on the city of Troy, the forces of Greece 153 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: consisting of you know, experienced marauders and traders, everyone joining 154 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: up under the command of Agamemnon. In his book, Cason writes, 155 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: it's a very well written book and has some nice descriptions. 156 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: He writes, for once the major cities of Greece for 157 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: went their traditional pastime of praying on one another and 158 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: joined hands for a combined operation against Troy. And while 159 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: it's described as of course a land based siege of 160 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: a city with no navy, they travel to their destination 161 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: via ship, and of. 162 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 3: Course the ships play a major role in the narrative 163 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: of the Iliad. You know, there's like the famous passage 164 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: where there's like the listing of all the ships and 165 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 3: the warriors brought with them. 166 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's at the works of homer Are you know, 167 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: are actually a key point in trying to understand what 168 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: these ships were and how they functioned. Okayse And points 169 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: out that ancient freighters, as the my Sitians would have used, 170 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: typically traversed by sail alone. They were roomy and slow 171 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: ships built exclusively for war. However, it had to be galleys. 172 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: We've kind of gotten to this already, I think. So 173 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: they had to be fast when it mattered, so they 174 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: could depend on sails when speed wasn't a necessity, or 175 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: when the wind was good, which, of course it's worth 176 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: noting that if the wind is really good, that will 177 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: propel you rather swiftly. But conditions have to be right, 178 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: and you could not necessarily count on the Mediterranean winds, 179 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: especially if conflict was involved. So the sails could easily 180 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: be stored away in favor of that ore power that 181 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: was dependent entirely upon the muscles of your crew. And 182 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: he points out that the ore power here again in 183 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: Homeric times, if you will, was provided by the crew 184 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: of the vessel, which also included the ship's fighting men. 185 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: So it's interesting. So on one hand, we shouldn't make 186 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: the mistake of thinking that they were not good oarsmen. 187 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: They were apparently very good oarsman, highly trained, very skilled. 188 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: There's actually a part in the Odyssey where Alcinous brags 189 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: that brags about what great oarsmen his men are. But 190 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: they were not just dedicated to oarsmen. They also would 191 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: have been called on to do all these other things 192 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: as well. 193 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 3: M okay. 194 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: So there was a careful balance apparently in play to 195 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: how hard you would push your rowers, because if you 196 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: were planning on, you know, making an amphibious landing, an 197 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: amphibious invasion on the other end of your journey, they 198 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: need to be able to get up and go and 199 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: do that. So I was trying to imagine, like what 200 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: would be comparison with it would be kind of like 201 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: if an NFL team had to potentially row to I 202 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 2: don't know, the Super Bowl and then play the game 203 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: when they got there. 204 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, they've got to run to the game or something. 205 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the author here he contends that, yeah, basically 206 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: these folks would rather sail than row, and they would 207 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: depend on sailing as often as possible. But again, there 208 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 2: are going to be certain conditions where it's just going 209 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: to make sense and make all the difference to get 210 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 2: everybody pushing those oars or pulling those oars. Now, what 211 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: were these ships like? We have few illustrations. We have 212 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: the descriptions by Homer, including part in the Odyssey where 213 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: Odysseus builds a new ship, But even a lot of 214 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: this didn't come together till the twentieth century when we 215 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: had maritime archaeology to give us some actual evidence to 216 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: base some of this on other archaeological data, that we 217 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: could take some of those passages and make better sense 218 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: of what they were saying. So Cason contends that the vessels, 219 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: which he jokingly describes as seagoing greyhounds during this period 220 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: between thirteen hundred and twelve hundred BC, would have looked 221 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 2: essentially like this, long low holes on abruptly rising prow. 222 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: That's the front of the ship. They had a curved stern, 223 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: as opposed to the reported build of the sea people's vessels, 224 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 2: which were described as having a straight stern. The stern, 225 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: of course, is the back of the ship. All right, 226 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: So at this point we're talking more or less about 227 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: single level galleys becoming the norm. These would have been 228 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: single level or vessels powered by around thirty men, and 229 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 2: we based a lot of this on like vase paintings, 230 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: Homeric writings, you know, chronicles from eighth century BC, and 231 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: so forth that let us know that. Okay, eventually though, 232 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: the ships begin to vary in size, the number of 233 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: the oars ends up ranging from twenty to forty or 234 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: even fifty. We'll get into that more later. Early on, though, 235 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: we would have been dealing with a case where most 236 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: of these vessels would have been privately owned, and they 237 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 2: would have engaged in both merchant trade and raiding so 238 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 2: as well as you know, carrying armed men to a destination, 239 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: and there would have been more of this than dedicated fighting. Again, 240 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: we get into that idea that there's a thin line 241 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: between between what is piracy and what is some other pursuit, 242 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: including actual trade. But as all this heats up, it 243 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: gets to the point where, okay, a single row of 244 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: ores is not going to cut it. You're going to 245 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: need an additional row of ores. And it's interesting getting 246 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: into this because yeah, we see the birth of the 247 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: fifty ORed vessels, the penticonters, which might have apparently reflected 248 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: a major development in the eighth century BCE, according to 249 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: Fagan and Rancoff, who I scided in the last episode. 250 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: That's Brian Fagan and Boris Rhancoff. So the vessels we're 251 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: talking about here would have featured two levels of rowers, 252 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: one rowing at the same level is those single row 253 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: galleys that came before, but then a lower level in 254 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: the hold working ores through apertures in the hole. So 255 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: it's interesting. You might imagine that we just built one 256 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: on top of the other, like an ice cream cone, 257 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: but it's not quite the same. It's a little more 258 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: complicated than that ends up involving like a reworking of 259 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: the whole itself. 260 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: Now, on one hand, I would imagine, okay, you're adding 261 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: more ores, more rowers. That gives your boat more power, 262 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: you can achieve greater speeds. But from what I understand, 263 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 3: splitting the operators of the vessel the power in the 264 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: rowers into multiple levels also has other implications for the 265 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 3: design and construction of the vessel. 266 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I found this really interesting as well, 267 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: because it wasn't simply that you could have more ores 268 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: per vessel and therefore more power. In fact, in many 269 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: cases you'd have vessels with the same number of ores 270 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: that a single level craft would have boasted. But since 271 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: you can spread them out across two levels, that means 272 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: you can make the craft itself shorter. So you had 273 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: the ability to make not only a faster vessel, but 274 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: this is key, a more maneuverable one. 275 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: Ah Right, So a shorter vessel will have less drag 276 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: in the water and will be able to turn more easily, 277 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: and I guess probably also have less weight per unit 278 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: of rowing space. 279 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if there's an actual decent comparison 280 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: to be made to buses, but I couldn't help but 281 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: think about like the difference between like a double decker 282 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: bus and one of those giant buses where they're like 283 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: joined together with this bendi part in the middle, because 284 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: I guess both of them can be difficult to maneuver 285 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: in their own way. But I don't know, maybe it's 286 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: a halfway useful analogy. But these general changes that are 287 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: going on here, according to Fake and Rohnkoff, they seem 288 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: to suggest though that fighting capacity was becoming more and 289 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: more important, and carrying capacity was less of a concern. 290 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: So yeah, you're you're having to upgrade the design of 291 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: your vessels in order to emphasize speed and mobility as 292 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: opposed to just how much stuff you could care, be 293 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: that that stuff cargo or troops or something else. However, 294 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 2: the length of these vessels does gradually increase, incorporating more 295 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: and more ores, upward of one hundred. So again everything 296 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: continues to evolve new forms, and then like stretch the 297 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: ability of that form, what happens if we added more 298 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: ores to it and so forth put more ores in. Yeah, 299 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: now it's also crucial to mention that. Apparently, as action 300 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: in the Mediterranean heats up again over this, over years 301 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: and years, decades and decades, ultimately centuries, sea based trade, piracy, colonization, 302 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: and more, this kind of eventually ends the days of 303 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: independently held galleys being like the main brunt of any 304 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: force out there. So Cason wrote writes about this, saying quote, 305 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: in these days, there was no one state that had 306 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: the naval strengths to police the seas. Every city involved 307 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: in trade had to maintain its own fleet, not only 308 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: to protect its merchantmen against the ubiquitous pirates, whose calling 309 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: now as before, had the status of a recognized profession, 310 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: but also to repel attacks delivered by commercial rivals, since 311 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: such attempts were an acknowledged means of discouraging competition. 312 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: Literal corporate raiders exactly. 313 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's dangerous out there. And yeah, any stresses 314 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: that the building up of navies and the perfecting of 315 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 2: these different maritime war technologies in the ancient world, all 316 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: this one hand in hand with the planning, the planting 317 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: of colonies, the opening up of new trade routes between 318 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: these various city states, and so forth. So yeah, it's 319 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 2: just it gets more and more dangerous, and the maritime 320 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: technology evolves to keep up with that. Now, the pentagonter 321 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: seemed again that the two leveled org vessels seems to 322 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: have remained the main warship from the eight through six 323 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 2: centuries BCE, But clearly this climate demanded greater innovation, you know, 324 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: to continue to to you know, to push the boundaries 325 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 2: of what's possible. Every conceivable edge is going to count 326 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 2: in one of these altercations. And so we see a 327 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: couple of things, and they're very interconnected here. One was 328 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 2: the increasing importance of the nautical ram, which we'll get 329 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 2: to in a bit. But then the other goes in 330 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 2: hand in hand with that as well, and that is 331 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 2: I think everyone can guess, add a third level of 332 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: rowers to your vessel optimize. Yeah, add more ores, more 333 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: humans pulling those ores so that we can have more power. 334 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: So the name of the try Rem comes from three 335 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: levels of rowers. 336 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: That's right, the try Rem. It's basically like we've been describing. 337 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: It's the Penticonter with a third level added. But make 338 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: no mistake, this is really did apparently push the engineering 339 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: limits of the ancient world, and according to what I've 340 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: been reading, could easily be considered the most advanced vehicle 341 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: of the age. So it wasn't just let's strap another 342 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: row of oars up there, it wasn't. It involved redesigning 343 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: the whole ship. And these were advanced vehicles that in 344 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: the last episode we compared to jet fighters of today, 345 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 2: ultimately in the long run, too expensive for city states 346 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: to keep up with. And of course these became just 347 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: a staple of sea conflict and sea power of the day. 348 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 2: The Greeks used these, and then the defeat of the 349 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: Persians at Salamis in for ADBCE, and they would be 350 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 2: a major part of their maritime might. This battle, by 351 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: the way, I am reminded, is depicted in the twenty 352 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: fourteen three hundred sequel. As usual a sequel, there was 353 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: a sequel. I saw part of it on an airplane, 354 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 2: as usual. I am dubious about out looking to a 355 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: three hundred picture for any kind of historical accuracy. But 356 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: I don't know. People who have seen the movie write 357 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 2: in maybe it has some really good trirem scenes. I mean, 358 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: I would at least ask that there would be cool 359 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: trirem action sequences in that picture. So, as far as 360 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: we know, with the trirem the third level, the top 361 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 2: level would have had the oarsmen rowing through outriggers so 362 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: as to keep the whole as narrow as possible, while 363 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 2: the two lower levels would have rowed through whole apertures. 364 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: As such, you could power up a vessel with a 365 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: good one hundred and seventy ores and it would have 366 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: been as maneuverable as the two level pentdiconter, but ultimately 367 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 2: faster and deadlier. Now where did this innovation come from? Well, 368 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: according to the author, as I was reading here, Athenian 369 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 2: general and historian Thucydides credited to the Corinthian shipwright Menocles 370 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: in the eighth century, but Fagan and Rankov state that 371 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: more recent scholarships suggest that the invention hailed from perhaps 372 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: the Egyptians or the Phoenicians under Persian rule near the 373 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: end of the sixth century. Now, as of their writing, 374 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: there had been zero wrecks of these vessels discovered, duing 375 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: part to the fact that they would have apparently it's 376 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 2: thought have had positive buoyancy of hold. But in any 377 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: case this was the case, then it's still the case. 378 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: Now thousands of these ships were built and lost, and 379 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: apparently truly lost, because we've never found a wreck. 380 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 3: Now by never found a wreck, rob you mean never 381 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: found a substantially intact wreck. But we do have pieces, right. 382 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: We have pieces. We have we have various other bits 383 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: and pieces, you know, we have literary and historic writings. 384 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: And there were also some remains of the sea harbor 385 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: sheds at Piraeus near Athens that were also helpful in 386 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: trying to piece together exactly what a trirem was. 387 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 3: But if somebody's trying to build a replica replica of 388 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: an ancient Greek tryrem, in the modern world, it is 389 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: an exercise involving some amount of speculation and interpretation. You 390 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 3: don't just have like one you can copy right right. 391 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: And this was the endeavor in the creation of the 392 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: Olympias in the mid nineteen eighties, where you had a 393 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: bunch of experts come together and build what I've seen 394 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: referred to as a floating hypothesis. Let's take everything we 395 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: know about what a tr rem probably was, you know 396 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 2: what we know about ancient construction techniques and so forth, 397 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: and let's build one with the understanding that we're we're 398 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: not going to get it one hundred percent correct. You know, 399 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: nobody has I have seen anybody arguing that the resulting 400 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: ship is just dead on. It's inevitably incorrect. It cannot 401 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: possibly be a one for one match for what any 402 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: given try ream actually was in the ancient world. But 403 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: the idea is that it would give us like a 404 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: solid model which we could then run through trials, experiment with, 405 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: and then have nuanced conversations about where this prototype gets 406 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: it wrong. You know, where this recreation gets it wrong, 407 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: Like Okay, maybe it's it's too heavy and therefore too slow, 408 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: or maybe you know, it's not tough enough to withstand 409 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: being rammed and so forth, And so they built this thing. 410 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 2: And there are plenty of images of this vessel there are, 411 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: there's there's footage, there's there have been documentaries, there is. 412 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: The resulting craft was thirty six point nine meters or 413 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty one feet one inch in length, 414 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 2: powered by two sails, and of course one hundred and 415 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: seventy oarsmen. And I believe oorsmon is technically considered a 416 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 2: gender neutral term because i've and I have seen plenty 417 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: of photos of the folks that they recruited to power 418 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 2: this vessel in these trials, and you see plenty of 419 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: female oarsmen on the crew as well. And they did 420 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: five seasons of trials between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen 421 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: ninety four. 422 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 3: So I guess some people got really good at rowing. 423 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you can imagine where there would have 424 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: been a huge sense of camaraderie in this. If you 425 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: were a rowing enthusiast or and or you know, an 426 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: ancient maritime warfare enthusiast, you know, you'd want to get 427 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 2: in there, cram into this vessel with all these people 428 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: and start pulling. 429 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 3: These oars oh, does it look fairly cozy. 430 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: It looks like there is a sense of camaraderie. And 431 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: the photos that I was looking at, you know, it's 432 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: a very nice day in the Mediterranean, so there is 433 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: a certain vacation y feel to these photos. But also 434 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: it is a lot of people crammed into and above 435 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: the whole of a vessel, pulling oars and having to 436 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: do so in a skilled and determined fashion. I've read 437 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: that the Olympias boasted an armament of the vessel is 438 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 2: still round it, but it has a bronze ram on 439 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: the bow, ten spears and four archers. But I don't 440 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: think it actually engaged in any military activity in the 441 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: late eighties and early nineties, just to be clear on that. 442 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: But I can't help but think that it would have 443 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 2: made for a nice time travel movie. 444 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: Right Wait, you mean the replica and its krew get 445 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 3: sent to the past and they have to fight their 446 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 3: way through through I don't know, battles in the fifth 447 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: century BCE or a bunch of try Reams from the 448 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 3: fifth century BCE come to now and threaten all of 449 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 3: our modern navies and only a Tryream can fight them back. 450 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: I think both concepts could work, and I think a 451 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 2: comedy would perhaps work well, you know, you could have 452 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 2: this almost almost kind of like the Odyssey or something, right, 453 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 2: except it's having to return home from the future or something. Anyway, 454 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: the key findings from the Olympus trials, and there are 455 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: a lot of findings. There are a lot of these trials, 456 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: and again a lot of this was about, you know, 457 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: creating space to then have these more nuanced discussions about 458 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: what they got wrong right and what they perhaps got wrong. 459 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: But apparently they found that chiefly a three level war 460 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 2: system is viable. Prior to this, some scholars had doubted 461 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: that it was actually possible to have three levels of oarsmen. 462 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: They also found that it was both fast and highly maneuverable. 463 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 2: I think with this model they were able to reach 464 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: maximum more speeds of just under nine knots. But I 465 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: think there are some discussions about how maybe that was 466 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: too slow, maybe the vessel was too heavy. Again, there's 467 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: a lot of back and forth as part of the 468 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: research surrounding it. But Fagan and Rehnkoff and by the way, 469 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 2: Rencoff was a rowing Master professor of ancient history and 470 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 2: served as chair of the Trirene Trust that carried out 471 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: the Olympus, the Olympia's construction, and those trials. They state 472 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 2: that it's now widely accepted that this ship is likely 473 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 2: a generally accurate representation of what these ships were like. Again, 474 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: it seems unlikely that we'd ever know for sure on 475 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: this without time travel, but it seems generally on the money, 476 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: or close enough to the money for us to to 477 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 2: use it as a means of understanding what these vessels were. 478 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: I included a couple of photos here in our outline, 479 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: and everyone out there can can look these up as well. 480 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 2: But yeah, the ship at sea with oars out, sails 481 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: raised looks absolutely amazing, and there's a peek inside at 482 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: the folks pulling the oars. Again, it seems like they're 483 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: having a great time, but it is not spacious. 484 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 3: Also, I see there's a multi level seating with people 485 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 3: next to each other. I guess that's to get the 486 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: different angles of the oars in play, so a lot 487 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 3: of people are sort of head level with their neighbors. 488 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: Butts, Yeah, yeah, when we're talking about three levels, don't 489 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: think of it like an apartment building where there's a 490 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: there's like a clear U dividing point between first floor, 491 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 2: second floor, third floor. No, it's all it's all crammed 492 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: in there, and it's all part. It's not like an 493 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: I Cream cone scoop scenario. It's all incorporated into the design, 494 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: and that design is ultimately a large part of it 495 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: is about powering that ram That's right. 496 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 3: So, Rob, you asked me to take a look at 497 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: ramming and ramming maneuvers for this episode, and this was 498 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: a lot more interesting and complex than I expected. I 499 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 3: was just thinking, yeah, you know, how complex can it be? 500 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 3: You're just trying to run into each other. But no, 501 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 3: it's a delicate dance. 502 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to admit that it was more complex 503 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: than I was expecting as well. And I think part 504 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: of it is that I watched twenty Thousand Leagues Under 505 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: the Sea, the nineteen fifty four adaptation a lot as 506 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: a kid, in which, of course the fictional submarine the 507 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: Nautilus ram's enemy ships or enemies perceived enemies of Captain Nemo. 508 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 2: And again, this may be more nuanced in the film 509 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: than I remember, and maybe more so in the text, 510 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: but I seem to think of it as just the 511 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: Nautilus just goes as fast as it can and just 512 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: crashes through whatever it's trying to destroy. And so it's 513 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: easy for me to fall back on that and think, oh, yeah, 514 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: well ramming speed with a trirem it's just row as 515 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: fast as possible and hit them with as much velocity 516 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 2: as you can muster. 517 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 3: It's been a while since I've read twenty thousand Leagues 518 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: under the Sea, but I recall a plot line early 519 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 3: in the book where somebody, maybe it's a Professor Aronnax 520 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: or one of his rivals, proposes that all of the 521 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 3: ships that are mysteriously sinking around the world, this is 522 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 3: like the inciting incident or phenomena, phenomenon that begins the story, 523 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,239 Speaker 3: that they are being attacked by a gigantic narwhale. It's like, 524 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 3: you know, the unicorn of the sea. It has this 525 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 3: big spike, and you know, we all know that it 526 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 3: grows to a length of forty feet, but imagine it 527 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 3: could grow even bigger. It does not grow to a 528 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 3: length of forty feet, but imagine it could grow even bigger. 529 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: And that's what is going on. And now, of course 530 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: what is revealed later on is that they're being rammed, 531 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 3: as you said, by Captain Nemo's submarine and of course, 532 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: ramming as a weapon does indeed play a major role 533 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 3: in naval warfare. Going back into antiquity, now, you can 534 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 3: think of lots of reasons that ships would have always 535 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: been important in war. As we've talked about. You know, 536 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 3: they can move troops, they can move cargo and provisions, 537 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 3: they can engage in scouting, they can deliver messages and 538 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 3: so forth. But this age of war, galleys, the naval 539 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 3: ships powered by rows of oars, really showed the importance 540 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 3: of direct ship to ship combat, and thus the speed, 541 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 3: design and maneuverability of the galleys themselves became paramount, and 542 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 3: that's what ultimately leads to this extremely optimized design of 543 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 3: the trirem. So in ancient naval conflict, as we've already 544 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 3: alluded to, there are several different methods you could have 545 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: of attacking other boats on the water. You could have 546 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 3: archers on your boat. You could come up alongside that 547 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 3: boat and shoot at enemy troops or the crew on board. 548 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 3: You could have marines armed soldiers like maybe the Greek 549 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 3: boats might have some hoplight soldiers that would board enemy 550 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 3: boats and try to attack and overwhelm the crew. Or 551 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 3: you could attack the physical boat itself. So a major 552 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: goal of the trirem in ancient warfare was to destroy 553 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 3: or more accurately immobilize enemy ships, and the primary method 554 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: of doing this was ramming. So before you had the 555 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 3: cannon and the torpedo, you had the ram. 556 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: Okas in the ancient Mariners' Rights, no longer was a 557 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: sea battle simply a match in which ships closed and 558 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: the marines on each side fought it out, a sort 559 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: of land fight transferred to shipboard, as in Ramsey's successful 560 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: attack on the Sea Raiders. The ram changed all that. 561 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 2: It shifted the emphasis to the men that nanned the oars. 562 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 3: That's right. The boat is the weapon, and the target 563 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 3: of the attack is the other boat. And so the 564 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 3: way you wheeld the weapon is to guide and power 565 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 3: the boat. That's right. 566 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: And in this you end up depending on a highly 567 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: skilled rowing crew that could, in Cason's words, respond instantly 568 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: and accurately to command. 569 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 3: They had to be on the same page, they had 570 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 3: to act fast, with great strength and power, and they 571 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 3: had to know what they were doing at the same 572 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 3: time synchronization. So, picking up again on your analogy earlier, 573 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 3: rob of the trirem as kind of like a jet 574 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 3: fighter of its time. It was a highly optimized vessel. 575 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 3: It was stripped down to maximize rowing power. Generally, on 576 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 3: a Trirem, there were no living quarters on these boats. 577 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 3: They were essentially all engine, but that engine was human 578 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 3: bodies and so as such, a weakness of the Trirem 579 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 3: in a way was that it would generally have to 580 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: go ashore each day to meet the needs of its 581 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 3: crew for food, supplies and rest. This is not a 582 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 3: boat for people to live on at sea for long 583 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 3: periods of time. Again, it's all engine and the people 584 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 3: are the engine. 585 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can see this when you look at 586 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: the modern photos of that reconstruction, Like there's just not 587 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: a lot of a parent room in there, so you 588 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 2: can't imagine how a meal would potentially work on there, 589 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: or how you would handle anything like a shift change 590 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 2: or sleeping and so forth. 591 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 3: There are accounts of people doing it, like there's one 592 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 3: famous account in the ancient world of a trireme that 593 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: was sent out after another one to try to overtake 594 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 3: it to countermand the orders that had been given, and 595 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 3: so allegedly, like the rowers worked in shifts so they 596 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 3: could row all night and one slept while the other 597 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 3: road and so there are stories that this kind of 598 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 3: thing could be done in the extreme, but generally this 599 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 3: is not a vessel to live on for extended periods 600 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 3: of time. It is made for battle, and so a 601 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 3: major factor deciding the success of an ancient war galley 602 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 3: was the ability of its crew to perform. The corollarya 603 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 3: of that is that human exhaustion could mean death. So 604 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 3: ancient trirems often would be fitted with sails of some kind. 605 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 3: They might have a main mast sail that could be 606 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 3: used to save the crew's strength while they're just sort 607 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 3: of cruising somewhere, and then would generally not be used 608 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 3: for battle. The boat might leave ashore its main mast 609 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 3: sail if contact with the enemy was imminent. The goal 610 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 3: of naval combat, this ship to ship combat at the 611 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 3: time was to crush or puncture the hull of the 612 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 3: enemy vessel to or sometimes alternately, to shear off its 613 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 3: ores on one side, either of which would disable it 614 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 3: in battle. Now in the modern era, if we think 615 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 3: of puncturing the hull of a ship, we think this 616 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 3: means the goal is to sink the enemy ship, to 617 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 3: send it to the bottom of the ocean. But that's 618 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 3: not necessarily the case in fact, that's usually not the case. 619 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 3: In ancient Mediterranean naval combat, the ship, being made of 620 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 3: wood and lightly constructed and not full of much else, 621 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 3: would usually not sink entirely, but would become a floating 622 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 3: wreck which the winner of the battle could later toe 623 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 3: away for salvage or for you know, just to show 624 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 3: off what you did. 625 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Case In points out that there would often be 626 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: a capture of the enemy's ship's ram as a trophy. 627 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: This is apparently common practice, though again you can recognize 628 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: the challenges involved. You know, it would have to be 629 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 2: it would have to be a matter of capturing the 630 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 2: whole vessel and not just all right, we punctured them. 631 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 2: Now everyone go get that ram. 632 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 3: Hit right right, I mean, it would still be full 633 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 3: of hostile enemy troops and all that. So, like, there's 634 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 3: some more there's some more work to be done here. 635 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. And one thing the case mentioned is that the 636 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 2: whole like grappling and boarding actions that ever, completely goes away. 637 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 2: But this ramming, this becomes like the key attack method. 638 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: This becomes like the main focus of the ship design. 639 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, some ancient sources that refer to rammed ships 640 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 3: describe what happens to them, not as sinking, but as 641 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 3: a word that translates to dipping. They would dip, so 642 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 3: I think the idea is they would become flooded and useless. 643 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 3: But because again they're wooden and lightly built, they don't 644 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 3: sink to the bottom, so they're just like sitting there. 645 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 3: You can imagine the physical aftermath in the area of 646 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 3: an ancient naval battle would be a like a fascinating 647 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 3: and terrifying place. Yeah, So what was going on with 648 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 3: the ramming itself? Well, from what I've been reading, it 649 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 3: seems to me that ramming is primarily a maneuvering game. 650 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 3: So trirems were built with of course, dedicated ramming mechanisms. 651 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 3: So sticking out of the front of the boat there 652 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 3: would be a thick reinforced wooden spike that extends from 653 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 3: the keel, and that would be capped with a metal covering. 654 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 3: So like an Athenian trirem would would have a wooden 655 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 3: extension from the keel just around the water line, maybe 656 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 3: right ad or right below the water line, and this 657 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 3: would be covered in a bronze sheath. A later and 658 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 3: popular Athenian ram design would have like three horizontally aligned fins. 659 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 3: These sort of thin fins lined up in rows, and 660 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 3: I'll get to the reason for that in a minute. 661 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 3: Speed and maneuverability were a crucial part of the battle. 662 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 3: In order to perform a successful ram the galley would 663 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 3: need to set up its maneuver correctly. It would need 664 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 3: to build up speed so that it could get in 665 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 3: position to gain an advantageous angle goal, and it would 666 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 3: be trying to come into the other boat's broadside, so 667 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 3: before the actual ramming itself. A major part of ancient 668 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 3: Mediterranean naval tactics seem to be focused on getting behind 669 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 3: the enemy, getting through the enemy lines, and positioning your 670 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 3: coming around and positioning yourself behind the enemy ship, because 671 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 3: attacking from the rear made it easier to get the 672 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 3: angle you wanted and to make it harder for the 673 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 3: enemy ship to attack you. 674 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 2: That's right, it's got to In order for a ship 675 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 2: that you're facing from behind to turn around and potentially 676 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 2: come back and face you, it would have to expose 677 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 2: its entire side to your ramming force. 678 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 3: Exactly. Yes, Another very important consideration is not getting stuck 679 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 3: after the ramming attack. So imagine you use your ram 680 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 3: at the prow of your boat to punch a hole 681 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 3: in the enemy's hull, and then your RAM gets stuck. 682 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 3: It gets stuck in the hole that it punched. You are, now, wow, 683 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 3: just as disabled as the other ship. And if it's 684 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 3: dipping down in the water, you're going to be dipping 685 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 3: with it. You're also vulnerable to getting your own hull 686 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 3: rammed from the side because you're just sitting there with 687 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 3: your broadside exposed to enemy ships, and you can't move. 688 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 2: Right because another one could be right behind you. Now 689 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: I got three ships all crashed together. 690 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 3: So as important as the ramming maneuver was, an equally 691 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 3: important thing was designing the RAM and the ship so 692 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 3: as not to get not to punch through and get 693 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 3: stuck in the first place, and then also to have 694 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 3: the crew master the ability of going in reverse to 695 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 3: disengage after a successful attack. Now I was reading a 696 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 3: bit more about some boat design considerations in a book 697 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 3: called Archaeology and the Social History of Ships by Richard A. 698 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 3: Gould from Cambridge University Press, twenty eleven. Ramming as an 699 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 3: attack maneuver introduces stresses on the ship's hull integrity. Of course, 700 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 3: right Goole calls ramming quote controlled collision and that's that 701 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 3: is what it is. You're just crashing into another ship, 702 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 3: but you're hoping to do it in a way that 703 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 3: hurts the other ship more than it hurts you. Apparently, 704 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 3: some scholars have suggested that trirems may have had short 705 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 3: use lives, given the risks to their structure, both from 706 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 3: being rammed but also from absorbing the shock of delivering 707 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 3: a ramming attack. 708 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 2: Wow, and you can only imagine that would that would 709 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 2: add to this idea that they were costly vehicles to use, 710 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 2: because yeah, if you could only get like maybe one 711 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 2: hit out of this vehicle, like now it's ruined. Now 712 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: it's total, and you've got to build another one from scrap. 713 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 3: I mean, hopefully it's not totaled after one hit. But 714 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 3: you know, the more the more hits you do with it, 715 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 3: the more risk you have that you are going to 716 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 3: incur damage to the ship itself. Goul to Wright's quote, 717 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 3: early rams were pointed and risk to becoming stuck in 718 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 3: the opposing ships hull. So if you look up pictures 719 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 3: of these, these earlier rams were often more they look 720 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 3: just kind of like a horn or a tusk or something. 721 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 3: But Gould says quote trirem rams were blunt with a 722 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 3: squared off face, and were intended to pound and shatter 723 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 3: the planks in the opposing ship's hull rather than punch 724 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,280 Speaker 3: a hole through it. So you were trying to damage 725 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 3: the target ship's hull in a way that maybe cracks 726 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 3: the wood or takes it, or causes damage to a 727 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 3: joint or something that ruins its watertight integrity. It will 728 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 3: start to take on water. That's the goal. But you 729 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 3: do not want to just punch a hole all the 730 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 3: way through and get stuck inside it again for all 731 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 3: the reasons we've talked about that that is a risk 732 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 3: to you. So this delicate balance of considerations not only 733 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 3: had implications for the design of the RAM and the ship, 734 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 3: but also for the crew, because a ramming attack had 735 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 3: to be fast enough that the target ship could not 736 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 3: escape and fast enough that the impact force would break 737 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 3: through the planks of the enemy's hull and make it 738 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 3: take on water. But at the same time, it could 739 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 3: not be so fast that the impact caused damage to 740 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,240 Speaker 3: the attacking ship or punched through and got the ram stuck. 741 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 3: So this made me sort of rethink the idea of 742 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,919 Speaker 3: speed and the triream based on what I'm reading in 743 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 3: this book by Gould. Here it seems that top speed 744 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 3: was especially important for maneuvering in trying to get behind 745 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 3: the enemy and into the advantageous position for a ramming charge, 746 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 3: you want to be in the right position and have 747 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 3: your enemy in the wrong position. But top speed was 748 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 3: not necessarily for ramming itself, because ramming at top speed 749 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,760 Speaker 3: could have been dangerous to the attacking galley. 750 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 2: Wow, so ramming speed could also conceivably mean or like 751 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 2: ramming deceleration. Once you're in a position. 752 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 3: Based on what I've read, yes, it seems like you 753 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 3: don't want to hit the hit the opposing boat at 754 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 3: top speed again because of risks to your own hull 755 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 3: integrity absorbing the shock of that hit, and you don't 756 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 3: want to get stuck, so you just want to You 757 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 3: want to hit it just hard enough to damage it now. 758 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 3: Gould also points out that there could have been additional 759 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 3: things that that ancient shipbuilders did to reinforce the hull 760 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 3: for battles and make it make it better able to 761 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 3: absorb the shock of a ramming hit. Like there was 762 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 3: a practice of apparently using rope cables wrapped around the 763 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 3: ship's hull to help provide strength during a battle. So 764 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 3: there could be other things that would reinforce it that 765 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 3: we don't fully know about, if that makes sense. But 766 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 3: like you were saying, it does go against the idea 767 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 3: of the Nautilus trying to just ram into something at 768 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 3: top speed, because yeah, if the Nautilus did that, wouldn't 769 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,919 Speaker 3: it probably actually get stuck in the ship that it hit. 770 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, or I also couldn't help but think about Star 771 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 2: Trek a little bit, which makes sense. Star Trek in 772 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 2: its space combat is very much based on naval combat, 773 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's basically just a space age variation 774 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 2: on all of that, and so if but with no 775 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 2: up and down right right, But but you could imagine 776 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 2: a scenario where if you know, Captain Picard wanted to 777 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 2: need or needed to ram another ship, he wouldn't want 778 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 2: to like punch it into like into warp. That would 779 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 2: be crazy, like that would just like atomize both vessels, right, Yeah, 780 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 2: he would need to depend on a lesser velocity one 781 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 2: that would accomplish whatever the goal is, you know, like 782 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 2: I don't know, take out an engine on the enemy 783 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 2: vessel as opposed to just destroying everything. Trekkies, I'm depending 784 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 2: on you to point out an example where something like 785 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 2: that surely happened. There had to have been some ramming 786 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,399 Speaker 2: maneuvers at one point or another, and I just am 787 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 2: not thinking of them. 788 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 3: Oh man, I would love to see that. So one 789 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 3: one more question. If we're thinking about trying to zero 790 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 3: in on ideal ramming speed for one of these attacks, 791 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,280 Speaker 3: I was reading in several sources. One was a book 792 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 3: by an author named Nick Fields called Athenian Trirem Versus 793 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 3: Persian Trirem The Greco Persian Wars four ninety nine to 794 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 3: four forty nine. This was published in twenty twenty two 795 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 3: by Bloomsbury. And this book contains interesting photos of a 796 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,959 Speaker 3: bronze ram sheath that is from the ancient world. Maybe 797 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 3: we'll come back and talk about that in the next part. 798 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 3: But because it has some interesting design features not just 799 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 3: for ramming efficiency, but a decorative design features that I 800 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 3: thought were interesting. But I just wanted to mention this 801 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 3: book because it gets into the idea of ramming speed. 802 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 3: So Fields says that if the target ship is either 803 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 3: stationary or moving towards you, and you can hit it 804 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 3: within an angle of between twenty and seventy degrees, the 805 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 3: attacking boats. Ramming speed only needed to be about three 806 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 3: to four knots, so that's not that's not super fast. 807 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 3: That's between five point five and seven point five kilometers 808 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 3: per hour, and so that's if you're hitting it at 809 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 3: a more oblique angle between twenty and seventy degrees. If 810 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 3: you're able to line up something closer to a ninety 811 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 3: degree hit, you hit it in the middle of its length. 812 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 3: Even less speed is required to break through and make 813 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 3: it take on water. That's probably between two to three knots, 814 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,280 Speaker 3: which is between three point seven and five point five 815 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 3: kilometers per hour. There was also research published just this 816 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 3: year about the ramming speeds needed for try rems. This 817 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 3: was published by itzac at All in the journal Journal 818 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 3: of Archaeological Science Reports in twenty twenty four. The paper 819 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 3: is called Damaging a triyream by Ramming the Kinetics, and 820 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 3: the main finding was that quote the minimum impact velocity 821 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,879 Speaker 3: required to break a single plank is one point three 822 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,839 Speaker 3: to three knot, so this was obviously well within the 823 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,200 Speaker 3: capabilities of a trirem. There's really no question that it 824 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 3: could easily achieve the speeds needed to cause damage to 825 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 3: the opposing ships, and it didn't have to be near 826 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 3: top speed to do it. They could go at a 827 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 3: quite achievable speed and cause that damage with minimal risk 828 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 3: to the attacking ship. And even on just an intuitive 829 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 3: physics level, it kind of makes sense that you wouldn't 830 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,879 Speaker 3: need that much speed because of course you are hitting 831 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 3: a boat at its weak point with your strongest point, 832 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 3: and you've got the force of that impact concentrated down 833 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 3: not across like the full height of it of the 834 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 3: ship's hull, but down into this small impact zone at 835 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 3: the tip of the ram. 836 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'd be interested to hear from many folks 837 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,280 Speaker 2: out there who have a lot of experience around boats 838 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 2: who can speak to like accidental rammings or bumpings like 839 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 2: in harbor and docks situations, Like how easy is it 840 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 2: to accidentally punch a hole in the hull of a 841 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 2: small vessel or at least a wooden vessel, given that 842 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 2: we're talking about wooden wooden ships here. Well, this has 843 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,880 Speaker 2: been fascinating. Yeah, ramming one boat into another seems that, 844 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 2: you know, on the surface, to be something that would 845 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 2: be very simple and straightforward. But yeah, there's a there's 846 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 2: a whole it's a whole engineering problem. To it. There's 847 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 2: an there's a there's a there's a military art to it, 848 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 2: and involves a discipline and maneuver. It's pretty fascinating, and 849 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,360 Speaker 2: you can only imagine the mix of uh, you know, 850 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 2: actual like combat scenario learning that would be involved in 851 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 2: all of this, as well as experiments and testing. Uh yeah, 852 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 2: it's it kind of boggles the mind, gives you a 853 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 2: new new respect for what these ancient mariners were up. 854 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 3: To, how they had to all work together to make 855 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 3: the boat function as kind of a single organism. 856 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 2: All right, well, we're going to go ahead and close 857 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,720 Speaker 2: out this episode, but we'll be back for a third. 858 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:05,839 Speaker 2: I think the third episode will cap everything off, So 859 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 2: tune back in on Tuesday as we return with part 860 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,319 Speaker 2: three of Ancient Oars on the Wine Dark Sea. In 861 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 2: the meantime, we'll remind you that Stuff to Blow Your 862 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 2: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core 863 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episode on Wednesdays. 864 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 2: On Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to talk 865 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 2: about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 866 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,479 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ 867 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,880 Speaker 3: Posway and huge thanks to our guest producer today, Andrew Howard. 868 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,400 Speaker 3: Appreciate you stepping in, Andrew. If you would like to 869 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 3: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 870 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 3: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 871 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 3: or just to say hello, you can email us at 872 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 3: contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot chat. 873 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 874 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, what's the iHeartRadio app, 875 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:17,319 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.