WEBVTT - Invention Playlist 4: Chopsticks 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.360 Hey, welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.920 I'm Joe McCormick. I have to admit that I love 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:21.400 chopsticks and a kind of embarrassing in naive way. Like 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:27.520 one of my favorite things about about eating several different 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.840 kinds of Asian food is using chopsticks to eat them. 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.600 I love like Chinese noodles with chopsticks. I love eating 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.320 sushi with chopsticks. So sometimes I just eat sushi with 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:40.199 my hands, as as you often do. Yeah. Um, But 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.760 I love using chopsticks. I love it almost as much 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.640 as I love the food itself. But I have found 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.840 very strangely that I have a psychological block against using 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:56.360 chopsticks on ethnic cuisines with which they do not originally pair. 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.880 So I love using chopsticks, and I want any excuse 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.800 to use them. But I've tried to eat spaghetti with 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.000 them with like tomato basil sauce, and it does not work. 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.600 It is psychologically revolting. But this is all ridiculous when 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.119 you start getting into the deeper history of of any 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:15.640 nation's cuisine. I mean, where do you think those those 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.679 noodles in spaghetti and Italian spaghetti came from? That's a 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.759 good point. They came from the East, they came from 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:24.240 the land of chopsticks. And of course, one of the 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.200 things we're gonna get gonna get into in this episode 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.520 is that, you know, there was a time before widespread 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:32.640 chopstick usage, uh in in Asia. There was a time 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:37.720 before widespread noodle and dumpling consumption in Asia. And it's 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.759 all part of the history of of of how we 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.520 eat our food and what we eat. Right. So today's 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.680 episode is going to be about chopstick technology, right. Uh 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.680 So everyone I think is familiar with chopsticks. We don't 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.920 have to really explain these too much. But there's two 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.360 of them. There's two of them. There's sticks, there's sticks. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.880 Use your manual dexterity to manipulate food with them. Uh. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.400 And you know, they may be made out of wood, bamboo, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:05.960 or they may be made out of metal or ceramic 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.960 plastic in some cases, but it's it's a pretty simple 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:14.040 concept and it it does allow an amazing amount of precision. 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.960 I remember at an early age, I was really impressed 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.399 by chopsticks, uh, in part because you know, we would 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.120 go to little little Chinese restaurants in the in the 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.600 States and when my family was living in Canada. One 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:31.519 of my father's coworkers, Um was a Chinese Canadian physician, 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.800 and he would use chopsticks, and he would let us 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.440 use chopsticks. And there was a story he told when 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.960 he was a child. If he was if he misbehaved, 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.679 his mother would dump a small bowl of uncooked rice 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.320 out under the table, give him a pair of chopsticks, 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.160 and then he would have to um move each grain 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.480 of rice with the chopsticks back into the bowl. That 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.880 is amazing because that sounds like a punishment straight out 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.320 of a fairy tale, doesn't it. That's like a fair 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.880 that's like a Cinderella type punishment. But chopsticks, they are 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.680 exactly the tool you would want to use to to 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.080 carry out this task. I mean they they're just so precise. 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.000 They even beat human fingers in many instances. If not 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.600 in precision, then at least intact right because it allows 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.440 you to Because so much of our our our our 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.519 use of utensils, it's about how do you eat the 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:29.080 food effectively, but also in a way that doesn't insult 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.200 the people that you're eating with. Likewise, if you're eating 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.920 hot food, which has been popular in human culture, um 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.520 it it it behooves you to be able to handle 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.200 that food without burning your fingers, and chopsticks allow you 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:44.840 to do that, you know, when it comes to picking 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.640 up individual grains of rice one at a time. I 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.920 found out that there actually is a Guinness World Record 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:55.480 category for speed in picking up and eating individual grains 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.080 of rice with chopsticks. That's a that's a thing you 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.640 can compete in. So you can go a like number 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:02.400 of hot dogs in a minute thing, or you can 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.400 go the number of grains of rice in a minute thing. 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.120 Um And apparently the current holder of this world record 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.840 is somebody named Silvio Saba in Milan, Italy, who was 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.680 able to pick up and eat twenty five individual grains 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.880 of rice with chopsticks in one minute in February, which 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.719 actually that sounds kind of I feel like that record 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.320 could be beaten. I'm just imagining it. And maybe so 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.400 maybe you're the man to take up the chopsticks and 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.080 give it a try. I mean, surely you can get 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.239 down to like a second and a half per per 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.039 rice grain, right, I don't know, who are we to 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.040 doubt the Guinness Book of World Records, though, Joe, you 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.440 know one thing is certain, though, when I'm using chopsticks, 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:44.600 I often think about I mean just always impressed with 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.000 these are great, and I do feel that temptation to 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.559 want to use them on other foods. And really about 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.400 the only foods that I when I think about it, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.760 that they don't make sense for so much are foods 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.039 that require a great deal of cutting and carving. Uh. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.800 You know, I'm thinking, like, if you're eating a steak, uh, 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:04.720 you would need a knife. Now, I guess you could. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.080 You could use a knife and chopsticks, and that would 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.279 that would work. But for the most part, chop sticks 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.760 are gonna are gonna get you there with just about 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.720 any food. You know, when you mentioned pairing a knife 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.880 with chopsticks, there at least once was a product called 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.880 fork and knife chopsticks. Have you seen this? There's like 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.760 a promo obnoxious comedy promo video that used to go 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.640 around the internet. Actually, it was a video where hilarity 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.839 ensues when some Caucasian gentleman is trying to eat something 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.440 with chopsticks. He just keeps dropping it all over himself 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.680 and it's like, oh, there was There's got to be 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.200 a better way. And the better way is that the 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:46.400 other side of these chopsticks are a fork and a knife. 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:48.360 Oh so you can flip them around. See at first 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.560 I think you meant that you're using them like chopsticks. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:52.679 But then it has a tiny fork and a tiny 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.000 knife on the end because it's just you flip them around. Okay, 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.400 uh no, yes, so it's stick party in front, fork 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.720 and knife business and back. And actually they would like 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.200 they would sort of hook together to make hinged chopsticks, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.320 which are not exactly traditional chopsticks. Okay, well that's not 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.880 the worst invention, I suppose. Now. The promo video is 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.640 really obnoxious, but the invention is fine. Though it looks 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.880 like it's been discontinued or at least from the original 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.280 seller as far as I could tell. Chopsticks themselves, however, 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.320 of course, are still very much in production. They have 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.240 not been discontinued. There's no sign of chopsticks going away 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.440 anytime soon. In fact, I think I read about a 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:33.200 problem with billions of disposable chopsticks being used every year. Yeah. Yeah, 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.880 If anything, that the big take home is if you 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.279 like using chopsticks, if you find yourself regularly using chopsticks, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.560 invest in a in a set of chopsticks, a mobile 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.560 set that you can carry around and use it home 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.680 and cut down on the on the disposable chopsticks. Now 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.719 where did chopsticks come from? Well, they came from China 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.680 and uh and as as we were talking about with 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.840 our our researcher for this program, Scott Benjamin, they propped 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.600 up prior to d b C, though some sources say 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.880 they've been around for nearly nine thousand years. But uh, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.680 this is this is as cooking utensils, a way of 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.040 moving ingredients around in on hot walk for instance. But 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.400 when it comes to the use of chopsticks at the 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.720 dinner table or you know, as a means of bringing 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.040 food to your mouth, Um, sometimes you see it. Uh 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.720 stated that we're really looking at more four hundred c 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.280 e as A as A as A as kind of 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.400 a rough, very rough time stamp for when it really 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.960 began to become more popular and began to spread culturally, 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.920 the idea that these are utensils that should be used 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.880 to consume food as well. Now, as we'll get into this, 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:48.880 this is not like a very this is not a 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.640 super firm time stamp. It's not like you will not 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.200 find people eating with chopsticks before that point. But this 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.320 seems to be where the Levey really breaks on the idea. 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.080 People do like to come up with origin stories for things, though, 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.680 even when there isn't a clear origin story, well, that's 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.760 often part of the fund right, is that there's not 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.239 there's not an actual inventor, but there's a mythic character 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.360 that had some sort of role in the invention, some 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.480 sort of you know, cultural hero who stole fire from 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.200 the gods, etcetera. Exactly. So we were both looking at 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.400 a book, Robert, I think you actually read the whole book. Yeah, 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.480 it's a it's a short read, actually, something like two 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.840 hundred and something pages. It's a book by Q. Edward 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:33.400 Wang that is called Chopsticks, a Cultural and Culinary History, 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.200 polished from Cambridge University Press. And Wine points out that 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.479 a common Chinese legend tells the story of how chopsticks 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.559 were first invented by Da You, founder of the Shot dynasty, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.960 which ruled from twenty one hundred to sixteen hundred b c. E. 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.760 And I've poked around for a couple of versions of 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.920 this legend. Basically, the story goes like this. Da You 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.400 was the figure credited with fighting the Great Flood of 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.439 Chinese history and mythology by the use of dredging in 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:10.280 the riverbeds and construction of irrigation canals to divert water flow. Now, Robert, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.440 you've talked about the Chinese Great Flood legends on podcasts before. Yeah, 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.880 and you definitely comes up in in that episode. And 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.760 because he's a he's a true cultural hero in Chinese 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:25.439 mythology and the um. If I am remembering correctly, the 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:30.320 the knowledge to to to overcome the flood was was 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:36.160 actually stolen or obtained from the gods. I think by 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.960 you his father, Uh, and then you himself is the 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.400 one who really brings it to the people. I think 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:45.600 that's correct. But so you eventually succeeds in defeating the 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.040 Great Flood, and this made him emperor and founder of 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.360 the Shah dynasty. But there are lots of stories and 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.360 legends about how much he sacrificed personally and how tirelessly 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.959 he worked on this project, uh, to to defeat the floodwater. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.760 And one of these legends is that day you had 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.080 at one point had some meat sizzling in a walk, 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.920 but he was in such a hurry to fight the 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.160 flood that he couldn't sit there and wait for the 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.640 meat to cool down enough to handle and eat, so 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.199 he got a pair of twigs and he used them 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.679 to pick up the hot pieces of meat and hurry 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:20.720 along his meal so he could get back to work. 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.800 But clearly this is just a legend, but still there 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:28.280 it does illustrate, like the basic clever idea that the 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.720 novelty of using just some twigs, some sticks, but using 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.240 them using just found objects, but using them in an 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.200 inventive way. Uh, that the changes the way you do things. 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.600 And this is this is likely exactly how chop sticks 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.559 emerged in just the darkness of prehistory. Is the use 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.160 of found twigs, um, you know, maybe the twigs of 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.280 him manipulated in some fashion, but for the most part, 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.840 just a couple of found sticks that are used to 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.839 manipulate food inside of a cooking pot. Or also the 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.840 use of fire sticks, which would just be uh chopsticks 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.720 that are used for moving burning wood or coal around. Now, 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.520 one thing that I think is interesting about chopsticks that 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.680 is different from the use of say a fork or 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.440 a knife, or even I mean sort of like a spoon, 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.239 but also somewhat different from a spoon is that chopsticks 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.920 in a way function sort of like extensions of the fingers. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.280 You know, they do a similar pinching action that you 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.400 can do with your thumb and index finger, um, but 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.920 they you know, they extend the fingers farther. They can 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.360 handle hot stuff without getting grease on the fingers, and 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.920 all that, they can reach into soup and pull out noodles, 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.160 that they can do all that kind of stuff. But 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.840 they in a way feel like a more natural extension 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.160 of the the pinching, grasping action of the skeleton itself. 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.000 They feel like more like they emerge out of the 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.960 schema of the human body than say a knife, which 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.080 you know, you don't have a knife, and you don't 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.120 have any sharp fingers, you don't have a fork. Really, 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.600 there's no stabbing sharp tynes on your hand, and there's 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.400 just nothing analogous to a knife and a fork on 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.280 your body. Yeah, I mean, this makes me realize that 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.280 in grant granted, I probably I definitely use fork and 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.319 knife more than I use chopsticks. And I am not, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:24.199 by any means a you know, an expert practitioner with chopsticks, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.480 But I do feel like I am far more likely 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.880 to bumble and drop a fork, knife, or spoon than 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.080 I am to bumble and drop my chopsticks. Like there, 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.000 The chopsticks, to your point, are just more an extension 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.320 of your body when you're using them. Now, obviously, if 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:42.960 you're looking for ancient artifacts ancient evidence of chopsticks, Uh, 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.520 just standard twigs aren't going to stick around very well, right, 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.679 So you'd you'd be looking probably for chopsticks or indications 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.959 that chopsticks were made out of other materials. Right. So 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.880 for instance, um, you will find um like bronze chopsticks 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.400 or what are believed to be chop sticks, and the 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.000 tombs of the of the ruins of Yen in Hanan 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.200 Province in central China. Because essentially what we're talking about 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.000 here is a Neolithic invention. Like you said that the 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.480 twigs are not going to stick around, there is evidence 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.920 that suggests five thousand BC as a as a possibility 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.040 for early archaeological evidence of chopsticks. So I've also read 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.800 that the that some of these bone sticks from this 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.839 time and earlier may also be interpreted as hairpins or 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.520 or tools of another sort. Uh. But this is often 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.480 a problem with like Neolithic technology, is it's not quite 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.120 so clear what you're really looking at. It might be 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.600 clear that an artifact is not naturally occurring and it 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.439 was shaped in some way, but what was it used 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.920 for not always clear. Because this is ultimately one of 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.280 the confounding things about chopsticks is that it is a 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:54.520 relatively simple concept. Uh. You don't need anything beyond neolithic 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.080 technology to pull it off. And yet you don't see 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:03.479 it emerging independently in other cultures. Uh. You know, ultimately, 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.040 you just don't see it taking off everywhere, but it 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.200 but it is a it's a cultural difference, and you 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:13.280 see similar cultural differences in tool use among chimpanzees, for instance. Uh, 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.400 nothing so grand as as chopstick usage. You will not 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.440 find chimpanzees inventing the chopsticks, but you will see similar 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.720 similar situation in things that are unessential behavior. You do 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.400 not have to invent the chopstick in order to eat 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.560 and survive and develop all the other technologies that uh, 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.480 that the culture may develop. Uh. But uh, but but 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.120 it is curious how we we see the chopsticks emerge 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.800 in China and spread out from China, but they don't 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.080 independently emerge elsewhere. Now, as far as evidence that twigs 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.720 were commonly used just you know, snapped off branches and 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.720 twigs were commonly used for chopsticks. Wang in his book, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.520 sites literary evidence from the ancient world that it was 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.360 a common practice by say the third or fourth century 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.880 b c. To snap pieces off of the lower branch 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.160 is of a tree and use them for chopsticks. For example, 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.880 he cites a passage from jun Z who lived three 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.480 forty five b c. Uh and and jen Z says 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.560 this in service of illustrating an unrelated point, So he's 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.320 just like sort of using an analogy here. But he says, 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.080 if you look up at a forest from the foot 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.760 of a hill, the bigger trees appear no taller than chopsticks, 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.040 and yet no one hoping to find chopsticks is likely 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.600 to go picking among them. It is simply that the 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.000 height obscures their natural dimensions. So he's not really talking 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.480 about chopsticks in this passage, but it just sort of 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.920 makes passing reference to the fact that you might go 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.360 quote picking chopsticks. So we have in this an ancient tool, 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:46.880 an ancient utensil for the preparation of food. The question then, is, 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.680 how does it really leave the kitchen. How does it 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.320 go from being just something that you use in the 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:57.160 production of food to becoming the primary means of consuming 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.440 said food, Because, for instance, many of us use a 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.400 ladle in the kitchen, you know, or one of those 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.800 of those deep seated uh spoons that that are that 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.840 are just relatling out soup. You probably don't use one 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.560 at the dinner table. You probably don't use it to 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:16.920 drink soup. I eat with a spider strainer. Um, but 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.000 that's that's another example. Yeah, you could technically do it, 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.760 but you probably don't. Um. Speaking of spon's, spoons and soup, though, 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.160 Wayne gets into this and he points out that the 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.680 spoon was actually the most important eating implement for people 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.520 in ancient East and Southeast Asia. I can see that. 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.120 I mean, the spoon is going to be common to 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.280 pretty much every culture, right because it is essentially just 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.160 a retaining receptacle. You can move pretty much any kind 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.040 of food. You could eat steak with a spoon, right, Yeah, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.960 it's I Actually I've given the choice between a fork 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.920 and a spoon. I rarely picked the fork. I don't 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.760 eat a lot of food that requires a stabbing fork anymore. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.400 Uh So, I'm more than happy with the spoon. Just 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.000 give me the spoon. I don't even want to look 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.040 the fork. The anything I can do with the fork, 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:03.600 you can probably do with the spoon, and then of 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:05.760 course I can do it even better with the chopsticks. 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.280 But um, but the spoon was the most important eating 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.679 an implement for for people in ancient East and Southeast Asia. 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.280 And this is backed up by both archaeological and textual accounts. 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.159 And there are many reasons, some of these we've just 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.200 hit on here, just the ultimate practical practicality of the spoon. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.719 But but something else that Wayne points out is that 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:30.600 from antiquity up to the tenth century, millet was the 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.040 dominant grain cereal in North China, Korea, and parts of Japan. 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:40.000 And this particular substances best cooked into a thick gruel 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.200 that that demands the attention of spoons rather than any 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.960 other form of utensil. And boiling is key here because 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.440 this was the age of boiling uh stews and soups. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.080 The this is what you ate chopsticks. They crept in 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.679 is merely a supporting utensil that you might use to 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.120 like stir around the depths to grab a few things 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.399 out of the depths of your super stew, but for 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.760 the most part, you're gonna have to depend on that spoon. 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:07.720 By the tenth century, whing rights wheat becomes the primary grain, 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.480 and so you get wheat noodles, you get wheat dumplings, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.840 and then chopsticks becoming extremely important because these are these 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.560 make it far easier to manipulate those noodles or or 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.600 dumplings if you've ever tried to eat, especially noodles with 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.600 a spoon. But even a dumpling can become a complete 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.000 comedy of errors if you're because of dumpling can tend 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.080 to be a little slippery and you're trying to like 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.880 balance it on the spoon. No, you're better off grabbing 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.560 it with the chopsticks. And then from the eleventh century 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.400 onward he writes that rice, of course becomes increasingly popular. 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.920 Uh and since rice clumps, chopsticks can be used to 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.560 great effect with them, oh yeah. And then and then 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.960 in terms of of boiling well, by the third century 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.119 he writes that you by this point you had cooking 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.560 oils thanks to the millstone, that that allows you to 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.840 you know, to break down the various seeds and whatnot 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:00.560 that you're using to create that that frying oil. Uh so, yeah, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:02.560 you don't have to boil all of your ingredients. You 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.800 can fry them. And this means more reliance on bite 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.800 size ingredients rather than you know, giant you know, bones 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.480 and meat that are dropped in with your vegetables for 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.800 the stew. Yeah. And though of course not all, say 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.119 Chinese cooking is the stir fries were familiar with or whatever, 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.720 that is one common feature of many Chinese recipes is 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.160 um things, you know, not a big hunk of meat 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.560 on the plate, but things sliced into bite sized pieces. 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.159 And the other thing about bite sized pieces is that 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.719 they is that they cook faster, they require less fuel. 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.400 This becomes more and more important, many commentators touch upon 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.680 as as fuel becomes an issue. Right in Chinese civilization, 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.879 there were points where suddenly, like firewood is more expensive, 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.240 harder to come by. Yeah, so what are you gonna cook. 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:53.399 You're gonna cook a giant slab of meat, or you're 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.760 gonna cook little slivers of meat that have been prepared, 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.080 of course in the kitchen and then and and and 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:00.920 then then fried up and you can manipulate them with 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.720 your chopsticks, uh, while they're cooking, and then of course 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:05.720 when it comes time to eat. It is also the 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.280 perfect implement to employ weighing. Also points out that in 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.040 pre modern times, chopsticks also cut down in the risk 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.720 of germs in communal eating. An interesting point. So yeah, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.840 if people are, say, picking dumplings out of a shared dish, 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.320 you don't have to reach in there with your dirty hands. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.360 You can pluck them out precisely with chopsticks. Now, it's 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.280 important to note in all of this that we again, 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:28.800 we can't simply say that people created chopsticks in this 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.280 age or that they begin to actually eat with them 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.800 in another age. There's a lot of gradual change going 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.800 on here, and there are some notable ancient accounts, uh 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.879 accounts or legends or myths. So what have you of 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.520 eating with chopsticks? And that's where we have to to 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.960 discuss the lavish lifestyle of King Joe of the Shuan dynasty. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.080 He would have lived ten seventy five through ten forty 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.879 six BC. Okay, take me there, take me to this 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:01.560 ancient binge. He's best remembered as what's the party animal? Yeah, 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.880 definitely a party animal, a real blue do a real 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.639 blue dough. Yeah. He he loved his his food, he 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:10.919 loved the flesh, and uh and and so we have 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.119 to keep that in mind that like, how much of 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.640 this is accurate, how much of this isn't as an 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.679 actual ruler, who would, who had a decadent lifestyle, and 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:20.560 how much of this is of course just attributed to 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.479 somebody who fell out of the good graces of history. 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:25.960 But so, okay, if he's if he's a party animal, 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.720 does he party with chopsticks? He does. He was said 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.600 to have always eaten with an ornate pair of ivory chopsticks. 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.200 And he wouldn't it was, it was strongly stressed that 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.679 he wouldn't eat out of just earthenware bowls like the 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.800 rest of the people. No, he would only eat from 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.919 bowls of jade and rhino horn. Oh, rhino horn. Now, 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.399 we've talked before on a different show on Stuff to 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.359 blow your mind about ancient beliefs concerning the powers of 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.600 the rhino horn, especially as it concerned people who were 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.800 concerned with being poisoned like royalty, right. And then jade 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:04.520 of course also has magical properties in in Chinese traditions, 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.160