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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. I have to admit that I love

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Speaker 1: chopsticks and a kind of embarrassing in naive way. Like

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite things about about eating several different

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Speaker 1: kinds of Asian food is using chopsticks to eat them.

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Speaker 1: I love like Chinese noodles with chopsticks. I love eating

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Speaker 1: sushi with chopsticks. So sometimes I just eat sushi with

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Speaker 1: my hands, as as you often do. Yeah. Um, But

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Speaker 1: I love using chopsticks. I love it almost as much

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Speaker 1: as I love the food itself. But I have found

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Speaker 1: very strangely that I have a psychological block against using

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Speaker 1: chopsticks on ethnic cuisines with which they do not originally pair.

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Speaker 1: So I love using chopsticks, and I want any excuse

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Speaker 1: to use them. But I've tried to eat spaghetti with

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Speaker 1: them with like tomato basil sauce, and it does not work.

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Speaker 1: It is psychologically revolting. But this is all ridiculous when

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Speaker 1: you start getting into the deeper history of of any

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Speaker 1: nation's cuisine. I mean, where do you think those those

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Speaker 1: noodles in spaghetti and Italian spaghetti came from? That's a

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Speaker 1: good point. They came from the East, they came from

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Speaker 1: the land of chopsticks. And of course, one of the

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Speaker 1: things we're gonna get gonna get into in this episode

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, there was a time before widespread

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Speaker 1: chopstick usage, uh in in Asia. There was a time

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Speaker 1: before widespread noodle and dumpling consumption in Asia. And it's

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Speaker 1: all part of the history of of of how we

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Speaker 1: eat our food and what we eat. Right. So today's

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Speaker 1: episode is going to be about chopstick technology, right. Uh

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Speaker 1: So everyone I think is familiar with chopsticks. We don't

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Speaker 1: have to really explain these too much. But there's two

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Speaker 1: of them. There's two of them. There's sticks, there's sticks.

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Speaker 1: Use your manual dexterity to manipulate food with them. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they may be made out of wood, bamboo,

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Speaker 1: or they may be made out of metal or ceramic

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Speaker 1: plastic in some cases, but it's it's a pretty simple

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Speaker 1: concept and it it does allow an amazing amount of precision.

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Speaker 1: I remember at an early age, I was really impressed

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Speaker 1: by chopsticks, uh, in part because you know, we would

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Speaker 1: go to little little Chinese restaurants in the in the

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Speaker 1: States and when my family was living in Canada. One

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Speaker 1: of my father's coworkers, Um was a Chinese Canadian physician,

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Speaker 1: and he would use chopsticks, and he would let us

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Speaker 1: use chopsticks. And there was a story he told when

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Speaker 1: he was a child. If he was if he misbehaved,

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Speaker 1: his mother would dump a small bowl of uncooked rice

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Speaker 1: out under the table, give him a pair of chopsticks,

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Speaker 1: and then he would have to um move each grain

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Speaker 1: of rice with the chopsticks back into the bowl. That

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Speaker 1: is amazing because that sounds like a punishment straight out

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Speaker 1: of a fairy tale, doesn't it. That's like a fair

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Speaker 1: that's like a Cinderella type punishment. But chopsticks, they are

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Speaker 1: exactly the tool you would want to use to to

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Speaker 1: carry out this task. I mean they they're just so precise.

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Speaker 1: They even beat human fingers in many instances. If not

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Speaker 1: in precision, then at least intact right because it allows

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Speaker 1: you to Because so much of our our our our

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Speaker 1: use of utensils, it's about how do you eat the

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Speaker 1: food effectively, but also in a way that doesn't insult

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Speaker 1: the people that you're eating with. Likewise, if you're eating

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Speaker 1: hot food, which has been popular in human culture, um

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Speaker 1: it it it behooves you to be able to handle

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Speaker 1: that food without burning your fingers, and chopsticks allow you

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Speaker 1: to do that, you know, when it comes to picking

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Speaker 1: up individual grains of rice one at a time. I

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Speaker 1: found out that there actually is a Guinness World Record

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Speaker 1: category for speed in picking up and eating individual grains

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Speaker 1: of rice with chopsticks. That's a that's a thing you

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Speaker 1: can compete in. So you can go a like number

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Speaker 1: of hot dogs in a minute thing, or you can

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Speaker 1: go the number of grains of rice in a minute thing.

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Speaker 1: Um And apparently the current holder of this world record

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Speaker 1: is somebody named Silvio Saba in Milan, Italy, who was

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Speaker 1: able to pick up and eat twenty five individual grains

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Speaker 1: of rice with chopsticks in one minute in February, which

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Speaker 1: actually that sounds kind of I feel like that record

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Speaker 1: could be beaten. I'm just imagining it. And maybe so

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Speaker 1: maybe you're the man to take up the chopsticks and

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Speaker 1: give it a try. I mean, surely you can get

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Speaker 1: down to like a second and a half per per

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Speaker 1: rice grain, right, I don't know, who are we to

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Speaker 1: doubt the Guinness Book of World Records, though, Joe, you

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Speaker 1: know one thing is certain, though, when I'm using chopsticks,

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Speaker 1: I often think about I mean just always impressed with

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Speaker 1: these are great, and I do feel that temptation to

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Speaker 1: want to use them on other foods. And really about

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Speaker 1: the only foods that I when I think about it,

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Speaker 1: that they don't make sense for so much are foods

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Speaker 1: that require a great deal of cutting and carving. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking, like, if you're eating a steak, uh,

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Speaker 1: you would need a knife. Now, I guess you could.

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Speaker 1: You could use a knife and chopsticks, and that would

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Speaker 1: that would work. But for the most part, chop sticks

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Speaker 1: are gonna are gonna get you there with just about

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Speaker 1: any food. You know, when you mentioned pairing a knife

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Speaker 1: with chopsticks, there at least once was a product called

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Speaker 1: fork and knife chopsticks. Have you seen this? There's like

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Speaker 1: a promo obnoxious comedy promo video that used to go

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Speaker 1: around the internet. Actually, it was a video where hilarity

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Speaker 1: ensues when some Caucasian gentleman is trying to eat something

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Speaker 1: with chopsticks. He just keeps dropping it all over himself

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, there was There's got to be

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Speaker 1: a better way. And the better way is that the

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Speaker 1: other side of these chopsticks are a fork and a knife.

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Speaker 1: Oh so you can flip them around. See at first

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Speaker 1: I think you meant that you're using them like chopsticks.

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Speaker 1: But then it has a tiny fork and a tiny

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Speaker 1: knife on the end because it's just you flip them around. Okay,

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Speaker 1: uh no, yes, so it's stick party in front, fork

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Speaker 1: and knife business and back. And actually they would like

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Speaker 1: they would sort of hook together to make hinged chopsticks,

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Speaker 1: which are not exactly traditional chopsticks. Okay, well that's not

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Speaker 1: the worst invention, I suppose. Now. The promo video is

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Speaker 1: really obnoxious, but the invention is fine. Though it looks

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Speaker 1: like it's been discontinued or at least from the original

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Speaker 1: seller as far as I could tell. Chopsticks themselves, however,

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Speaker 1: of course, are still very much in production. They have

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Speaker 1: not been discontinued. There's no sign of chopsticks going away

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Speaker 1: anytime soon. In fact, I think I read about a

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Speaker 1: problem with billions of disposable chopsticks being used every year. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: If anything, that the big take home is if you

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Speaker 1: like using chopsticks, if you find yourself regularly using chopsticks,

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Speaker 1: invest in a in a set of chopsticks, a mobile

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Speaker 1: set that you can carry around and use it home

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Speaker 1: and cut down on the on the disposable chopsticks. Now

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Speaker 1: where did chopsticks come from? Well, they came from China

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Speaker 1: and uh and as as we were talking about with

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Speaker 1: our our researcher for this program, Scott Benjamin, they propped

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Speaker 1: up prior to d b C, though some sources say

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Speaker 1: they've been around for nearly nine thousand years. But uh,

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Speaker 1: this is this is as cooking utensils, a way of

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Speaker 1: moving ingredients around in on hot walk for instance. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the use of chopsticks at the

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Speaker 1: dinner table or you know, as a means of bringing

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Speaker 1: food to your mouth, Um, sometimes you see it. Uh

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Speaker 1: stated that we're really looking at more four hundred c

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Speaker 1: e as A as A as A as kind of

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Speaker 1: a rough, very rough time stamp for when it really

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Speaker 1: began to become more popular and began to spread culturally,

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Speaker 1: the idea that these are utensils that should be used

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Speaker 1: to consume food as well. Now, as we'll get into this,

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Speaker 1: this is not like a very this is not a

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Speaker 1: super firm time stamp. It's not like you will not

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Speaker 1: find people eating with chopsticks before that point. But this

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Speaker 1: seems to be where the Levey really breaks on the idea.

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Speaker 1: People do like to come up with origin stories for things, though,

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Speaker 1: even when there isn't a clear origin story, well, that's

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Speaker 1: often part of the fund right, is that there's not

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Speaker 1: there's not an actual inventor, but there's a mythic character

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Speaker 1: that had some sort of role in the invention, some

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, cultural hero who stole fire from

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Speaker 1: the gods, etcetera. Exactly. So we were both looking at

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Speaker 1: a book, Robert, I think you actually read the whole book. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a short read, actually, something like two

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Speaker 1: hundred and something pages. It's a book by Q. Edward

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Speaker 1: Wang that is called Chopsticks, a Cultural and Culinary History,

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Speaker 1: polished from Cambridge University Press. And Wine points out that

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Speaker 1: a common Chinese legend tells the story of how chopsticks

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Speaker 1: were first invented by Da You, founder of the Shot dynasty,

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Speaker 1: which ruled from twenty one hundred to sixteen hundred b c. E.

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Speaker 1: And I've poked around for a couple of versions of

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Speaker 1: this legend. Basically, the story goes like this. Da You

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Speaker 1: was the figure credited with fighting the Great Flood of

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Speaker 1: Chinese history and mythology by the use of dredging in

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Speaker 1: the riverbeds and construction of irrigation canals to divert water flow. Now, Robert,

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Speaker 1: you've talked about the Chinese Great Flood legends on podcasts before. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you definitely comes up in in that episode. And

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Speaker 1: because he's a he's a true cultural hero in Chinese

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Speaker 1: mythology and the um. If I am remembering correctly, the

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Speaker 1: the knowledge to to to overcome the flood was was

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Speaker 1: actually stolen or obtained from the gods. I think by

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Speaker 1: you his father, Uh, and then you himself is the

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Speaker 1: one who really brings it to the people. I think

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Speaker 1: that's correct. But so you eventually succeeds in defeating the

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Speaker 1: Great Flood, and this made him emperor and founder of

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Speaker 1: the Shah dynasty. But there are lots of stories and

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Speaker 1: legends about how much he sacrificed personally and how tirelessly

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Speaker 1: he worked on this project, uh, to to defeat the floodwater.

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Speaker 1: And one of these legends is that day you had

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Speaker 1: at one point had some meat sizzling in a walk,

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Speaker 1: but he was in such a hurry to fight the

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Speaker 1: flood that he couldn't sit there and wait for the

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Speaker 1: meat to cool down enough to handle and eat, so

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Speaker 1: he got a pair of twigs and he used them

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Speaker 1: to pick up the hot pieces of meat and hurry

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Speaker 1: along his meal so he could get back to work.

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Speaker 1: But clearly this is just a legend, but still there

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Speaker 1: it does illustrate, like the basic clever idea that the

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Speaker 1: novelty of using just some twigs, some sticks, but using

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Speaker 1: them using just found objects, but using them in an

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Speaker 1: inventive way. Uh, that the changes the way you do things.

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Speaker 1: And this is this is likely exactly how chop sticks

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Speaker 1: emerged in just the darkness of prehistory. Is the use

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Speaker 1: of found twigs, um, you know, maybe the twigs of

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Speaker 1: him manipulated in some fashion, but for the most part,

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Speaker 1: just a couple of found sticks that are used to

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Speaker 1: manipulate food inside of a cooking pot. Or also the

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Speaker 1: use of fire sticks, which would just be uh chopsticks

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Speaker 1: that are used for moving burning wood or coal around. Now,

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Speaker 1: one thing that I think is interesting about chopsticks that

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Speaker 1: is different from the use of say a fork or

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Speaker 1: a knife, or even I mean sort of like a spoon,

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Speaker 1: but also somewhat different from a spoon is that chopsticks

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Speaker 1: in a way function sort of like extensions of the fingers.

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Speaker 1: You know, they do a similar pinching action that you

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Speaker 1: can do with your thumb and index finger, um, but

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Speaker 1: they you know, they extend the fingers farther. They can

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Speaker 1: handle hot stuff without getting grease on the fingers, and

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Speaker 1: all that, they can reach into soup and pull out noodles,

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Speaker 1: that they can do all that kind of stuff. But

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Speaker 1: they in a way feel like a more natural extension

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Speaker 1: of the the pinching, grasping action of the skeleton itself.

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Speaker 1: They feel like more like they emerge out of the

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Speaker 1: schema of the human body than say a knife, which

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't have a knife, and you don't

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Speaker 1: have any sharp fingers, you don't have a fork. Really,

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Speaker 1: there's no stabbing sharp tynes on your hand, and there's

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Speaker 1: just nothing analogous to a knife and a fork on

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Speaker 1: your body. Yeah, I mean, this makes me realize that

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Speaker 1: in grant granted, I probably I definitely use fork and

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Speaker 1: knife more than I use chopsticks. And I am not,

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Speaker 1: by any means a you know, an expert practitioner with chopsticks,

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Speaker 1: But I do feel like I am far more likely

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Speaker 1: to bumble and drop a fork, knife, or spoon than

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Speaker 1: I am to bumble and drop my chopsticks. Like there,

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Speaker 1: The chopsticks, to your point, are just more an extension

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Speaker 1: of your body when you're using them. Now, obviously, if

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Speaker 1: you're looking for ancient artifacts ancient evidence of chopsticks, Uh,

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Speaker 1: just standard twigs aren't going to stick around very well, right,

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Speaker 1: So you'd you'd be looking probably for chopsticks or indications

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Speaker 1: that chopsticks were made out of other materials. Right. So

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Speaker 1: for instance, um, you will find um like bronze chopsticks

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Speaker 1: or what are believed to be chop sticks, and the

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Speaker 1: tombs of the of the ruins of Yen in Hanan

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Speaker 1: Province in central China. Because essentially what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: here is a Neolithic invention. Like you said that the

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Speaker 1: twigs are not going to stick around, there is evidence

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Speaker 1: that suggests five thousand BC as a as a possibility

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Speaker 1: for early archaeological evidence of chopsticks. So I've also read

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Speaker 1: that the that some of these bone sticks from this

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Speaker 1: time and earlier may also be interpreted as hairpins or

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Speaker 1: or tools of another sort. Uh. But this is often

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Speaker 1: a problem with like Neolithic technology, is it's not quite

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Speaker 1: so clear what you're really looking at. It might be

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Speaker 1: clear that an artifact is not naturally occurring and it

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Speaker 1: was shaped in some way, but what was it used

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Speaker 1: for not always clear. Because this is ultimately one of

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Speaker 1: the confounding things about chopsticks is that it is a

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Speaker 1: relatively simple concept. Uh. You don't need anything beyond neolithic

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Speaker 1: technology to pull it off. And yet you don't see

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Speaker 1: it emerging independently in other cultures. Uh. You know, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: you just don't see it taking off everywhere, but it

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Speaker 1: but it is a it's a cultural difference, and you

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Speaker 1: see similar cultural differences in tool use among chimpanzees, for instance. Uh,

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Speaker 1: nothing so grand as as chopstick usage. You will not

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Speaker 1: find chimpanzees inventing the chopsticks, but you will see similar

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Speaker 1: similar situation in things that are unessential behavior. You do

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Speaker 1: not have to invent the chopstick in order to eat

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Speaker 1: and survive and develop all the other technologies that uh,

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Speaker 1: that the culture may develop. Uh. But uh, but but

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Speaker 1: it is curious how we we see the chopsticks emerge

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Speaker 1: in China and spread out from China, but they don't

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Speaker 1: independently emerge elsewhere. Now, as far as evidence that twigs

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Speaker 1: were commonly used just you know, snapped off branches and

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Speaker 1: twigs were commonly used for chopsticks. Wang in his book,

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Speaker 1: sites literary evidence from the ancient world that it was

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Speaker 1: a common practice by say the third or fourth century

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Speaker 1: b c. To snap pieces off of the lower branch

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Speaker 1: is of a tree and use them for chopsticks. For example,

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Speaker 1: he cites a passage from jun Z who lived three

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Speaker 1: forty five b c. Uh and and jen Z says

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Speaker 1: this in service of illustrating an unrelated point, So he's

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Speaker 1: just like sort of using an analogy here. But he says,

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Speaker 1: if you look up at a forest from the foot

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Speaker 1: of a hill, the bigger trees appear no taller than chopsticks,

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Speaker 1: and yet no one hoping to find chopsticks is likely

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Speaker 1: to go picking among them. It is simply that the

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Speaker 1: height obscures their natural dimensions. So he's not really talking

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Speaker 1: about chopsticks in this passage, but it just sort of

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Speaker 1: makes passing reference to the fact that you might go

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Speaker 1: quote picking chopsticks. So we have in this an ancient tool,

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Speaker 1: an ancient utensil for the preparation of food. The question then, is,

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Speaker 1: how does it really leave the kitchen. How does it

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Speaker 1: go from being just something that you use in the

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Speaker 1: production of food to becoming the primary means of consuming

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Speaker 1: said food, Because, for instance, many of us use a

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Speaker 1: ladle in the kitchen, you know, or one of those

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Speaker 1: of those deep seated uh spoons that that are that

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Speaker 1: are just relatling out soup. You probably don't use one

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Speaker 1: at the dinner table. You probably don't use it to

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Speaker 1: drink soup. I eat with a spider strainer. Um, but

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Speaker 1: that's that's another example. Yeah, you could technically do it,

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Speaker 1: but you probably don't. Um. Speaking of spon's, spoons and soup, though,

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Speaker 1: Wayne gets into this and he points out that the

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Speaker 1: spoon was actually the most important eating implement for people

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Speaker 1: in ancient East and Southeast Asia. I can see that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the spoon is going to be common to

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Speaker 1: pretty much every culture, right because it is essentially just

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Speaker 1: a retaining receptacle. You can move pretty much any kind

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Speaker 1: of food. You could eat steak with a spoon, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I Actually I've given the choice between a fork

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Speaker 1: and a spoon. I rarely picked the fork. I don't

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Speaker 1: eat a lot of food that requires a stabbing fork anymore.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I'm more than happy with the spoon. Just

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Speaker 1: give me the spoon. I don't even want to look

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Speaker 1: the fork. The anything I can do with the fork,

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Speaker 1: you can probably do with the spoon, and then of

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Speaker 1: course I can do it even better with the chopsticks.

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Speaker 1: But um, but the spoon was the most important eating

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Speaker 1: an implement for for people in ancient East and Southeast Asia.

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Speaker 1: And this is backed up by both archaeological and textual accounts.

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Speaker 1: And there are many reasons, some of these we've just

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Speaker 1: hit on here, just the ultimate practical practicality of the spoon.

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Speaker 1: But but something else that Wayne points out is that

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Speaker 1: from antiquity up to the tenth century, millet was the

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Speaker 1: dominant grain cereal in North China, Korea, and parts of Japan.

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Speaker 1: And this particular substances best cooked into a thick gruel

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Speaker 1: that that demands the attention of spoons rather than any

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Speaker 1: other form of utensil. And boiling is key here because

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Speaker 1: this was the age of boiling uh stews and soups.

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Speaker 1: The this is what you ate chopsticks. They crept in

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Speaker 1: is merely a supporting utensil that you might use to

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Speaker 1: like stir around the depths to grab a few things

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Speaker 1: out of the depths of your super stew, but for

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Speaker 1: the most part, you're gonna have to depend on that spoon.

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Speaker 1: By the tenth century, whing rights wheat becomes the primary grain,

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Speaker 1: and so you get wheat noodles, you get wheat dumplings,

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Speaker 1: and then chopsticks becoming extremely important because these are these

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Speaker 1: make it far easier to manipulate those noodles or or

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Speaker 1: dumplings if you've ever tried to eat, especially noodles with

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Speaker 1: a spoon. But even a dumpling can become a complete

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Speaker 1: comedy of errors if you're because of dumpling can tend

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Speaker 1: to be a little slippery and you're trying to like

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Speaker 1: balance it on the spoon. No, you're better off grabbing

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Speaker 1: it with the chopsticks. And then from the eleventh century

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Speaker 1: onward he writes that rice, of course becomes increasingly popular.

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Speaker 1: Uh and since rice clumps, chopsticks can be used to

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Speaker 1: great effect with them, oh yeah. And then and then

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Speaker 1: in terms of of boiling well, by the third century

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Speaker 1: he writes that you by this point you had cooking

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Speaker 1: oils thanks to the millstone, that that allows you to

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Speaker 1: you know, to break down the various seeds and whatnot

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Speaker 1: that you're using to create that that frying oil. Uh so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to boil all of your ingredients. You

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Speaker 1: can fry them. And this means more reliance on bite

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Speaker 1: size ingredients rather than you know, giant you know, bones

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Speaker 1: and meat that are dropped in with your vegetables for

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Speaker 1: the stew. Yeah. And though of course not all, say

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Speaker 1: Chinese cooking is the stir fries were familiar with or whatever,

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Speaker 1: that is one common feature of many Chinese recipes is

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Speaker 1: um things, you know, not a big hunk of meat

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Speaker 1: on the plate, but things sliced into bite sized pieces.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing about bite sized pieces is that

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Speaker 1: they is that they cook faster, they require less fuel.

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Speaker 1: This becomes more and more important, many commentators touch upon

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Speaker 1: as as fuel becomes an issue. Right in Chinese civilization,

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Speaker 1: there were points where suddenly, like firewood is more expensive,

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Speaker 1: harder to come by. Yeah, so what are you gonna cook.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna cook a giant slab of meat, or you're

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Speaker 1: gonna cook little slivers of meat that have been prepared,

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00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: of course in the kitchen and then and and and

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Speaker 1: then then fried up and you can manipulate them with

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Speaker 1: your chopsticks, uh, while they're cooking, and then of course

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Speaker 1: when it comes time to eat. It is also the

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00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 1: perfect implement to employ weighing. Also points out that in

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Speaker 1: pre modern times, chopsticks also cut down in the risk

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Speaker 1: of germs in communal eating. An interesting point. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: if people are, say, picking dumplings out of a shared dish,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to reach in there with your dirty hands.

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Speaker 1: You can pluck them out precisely with chopsticks. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: important to note in all of this that we again,

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Speaker 1: we can't simply say that people created chopsticks in this

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Speaker 1: age or that they begin to actually eat with them

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Speaker 1: in another age. There's a lot of gradual change going

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Speaker 1: on here, and there are some notable ancient accounts, uh

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Speaker 1: accounts or legends or myths. So what have you of

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Speaker 1: eating with chopsticks? And that's where we have to to

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Speaker 1: discuss the lavish lifestyle of King Joe of the Shuan dynasty.

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Speaker 1: He would have lived ten seventy five through ten forty

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Speaker 1: six BC. Okay, take me there, take me to this

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Speaker 1: ancient binge. He's best remembered as what's the party animal? Yeah,

381
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,880
Speaker 1: definitely a party animal, a real blue do a real

382
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: blue dough. Yeah. He he loved his his food, he

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Speaker 1: loved the flesh, and uh and and so we have

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Speaker 1: to keep that in mind that like, how much of

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Speaker 1: this is accurate, how much of this isn't as an

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Speaker 1: actual ruler, who would, who had a decadent lifestyle, and

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00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: how much of this is of course just attributed to

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Speaker 1: somebody who fell out of the good graces of history.

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00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: But so, okay, if he's if he's a party animal,

390
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Speaker 1: does he party with chopsticks? He does. He was said

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Speaker 1: to have always eaten with an ornate pair of ivory chopsticks.

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Speaker 1: And he wouldn't it was, it was strongly stressed that

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't eat out of just earthenware bowls like the

394
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: rest of the people. No, he would only eat from

395
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: bowls of jade and rhino horn. Oh, rhino horn. Now,

396
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: we've talked before on a different show on Stuff to

397
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 1: blow your mind about ancient beliefs concerning the powers of

398
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: the rhino horn, especially as it concerned people who were

399
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: concerned with being poisoned like royalty, right. And then jade

400
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: of course also has magical properties in in Chinese traditions,

401
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 1: So it makes sense that that he would only eat

402
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: from these because they would have been reputed to have

403
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 1: some sort of uh focus on few food purification and

404
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: poison prevention UH and ivory chopsticks would later going to

405
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 1: become a symbol of decadent life and corrupt politics. But

406
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: it went far beyond that. With with King Joe, he

407
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,719
Speaker 1: said to have had his own quote alcohol pool and

408
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: meat forest. I stole the name of my restaurant. I

409
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 1: can't open it now. It does remind me of some

410
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: of these more decadent steak restaurants, you know, where they

411
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 1: bring around like skewers of meat. Because this is described

412
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: as essentially a lake of wine, and you would boat

413
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: around in it, you know, with your concubines and your pals.

414
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: And as you're boating around, drinking from the wine lake,

415
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: you would also pluck cuts of meat from the roasting

416
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: pillars that are around you, like a forest. This is

417
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: like a satanic Charlie in the chocolate factory. It is

418
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: this like unholy version of the chocolate rivers. He is

419
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Speaker 1: also said to have delighted in eating quote the meat

420
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Speaker 1: of long haired buffaloes and unborn leopards. I have no

421
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: comment on that. Well, it's just it's a decadent diet

422
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: to have, you know, only the weirdest and strange. Is

423
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: this like uh, Monty Burns on The Simpsons wanting to

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00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: wear the pelts of various exotic and endangered animals see

425
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: my best Yes, yes, chopstick etiquette time. We just gotta

426
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: have that jump in and invade whatever we were talking about, right,

427
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: Just it will probably upset most people if you're eating

428
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: unborn leopards. But also a point of etiquette here, never

429
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: point your chopsticks at someone really yeah, like if you're

430
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: you know, brandishing them at the table, you know, keep them,

431
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: keep the direction down toward the food. That's generally advised.

432
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: And also never stick your chopsticks upright in a bowl

433
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: of rice, as this is a portent of death. Yes,

434
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: I've heard that this is because chopsticks set a brighten

435
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: a bowl of rice can resemble sticks of incense or

436
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: chopsticks that are set upright in rice in funeral ceremonies. Oh,

437
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: this makes sense, this is but this is something that

438
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: would be very easy to miss for say a Western

439
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: or traveling in China, which is why you see it

440
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: cited in a lot of travel books. Do not do this,

441
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: this is an easy thing that you cannot do and

442
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: save yourself some grief. I always wonder about that kind

443
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: of stuff. When you see etiquette cited in books for travelers,

444
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: It's like, is this a real rule or not? I

445
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: feel like when you read those things, you've got to

446
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: be reading some real common etiquette guidelines mixed in with

447
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: things that people just made up. Well, I guess it

448
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: depends on the faux pa they're warning you against, because

449
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: some of them are more widespread and more central to

450
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: a given culture. Like I instantly think of various taboos

451
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: concerning shoes and Thailand. Uh uh, you know, if you're

452
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: seated so that your your shoes are pointed against somebody,

453
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: or or certainly any kind of situation where your your

454
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: shoes are placed saying a bin at an airport with

455
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: other belongings. But we need to save that for our

456
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: episode in the Invention of shoes. At this point we

457
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: should probably take a break, and when we come back,

458
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna discuss even more about the invention of chopsticks

459
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: and just the the spread the spread of this cultural

460
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: idea that this is how one should eat one's food. Alright,

461
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: we're back, Robert divulged to me the wisdom of the

462
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: Great Confucius as it concerns utensil etiquette. Yes, uh, this

463
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: is this is interesting because this is where we find

464
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: the connection between the great Chinese teacher, politician, and philosopher

465
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Confucius uh and chopsticks. Uh. Interestingly enough, I was just

466
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: watching I just finally began to watch Michael Woods The

467
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: Story of China, which is a fabulous documentary. He's done

468
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: a couple of these before, one on India, one on England,

469
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: and some other documentary features as well. But this is,

470
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: like I want to say, it's like an eight part

471
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: documentary look at the history of China and Chinese culture,

472
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's really really good. You can find

473
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: it on I think Amazon Prime currently and it's also

474
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: on PBS in America. Um. But the first episode does

475
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: a wonderful job of breaking down just how uh political

476
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: core Confucian teachings really were governing the about how you

477
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: know you've governed the moral character of a people via

478
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: the ruler. So the ruler and and and his morals,

479
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: they're the wind to the people's field of grass, dictating

480
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: the nature of the people. Now, Confucius lived five fifty

481
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: one through four seventy nine BC, a time during which

482
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: we see the emergence of so many new ideas concerning

483
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: human culture and the human condition. He's known outside of

484
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: China as Confucius because this is the latinization of Khong

485
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: Fuzi a k A Master cong Uh. And then we

486
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: can we can hardly summarize his teachings here on the show.

487
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: But but he believed that through study Uh, morality in

488
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: virtue could win out over violence and tyranny. Ruling by

489
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: example is better than ruling by law and punishment alone.

490
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: His teachings, however, would only come to to widely influence

491
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: Chinese rule and culture after his death. But his teachings

492
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: did spread, and it seems so too did his ideas

493
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: on eating utensils. He championed blunt chopsticks over the use

494
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: of knives, and is quoted as having believed that quote,

495
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: the honorable and upright man keeps well away from both

496
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: the slaughter house and the kitchen, and he allows no

497
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: knives at his table. Now it's unknown to what extent

498
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: this impacted the actual use of meat in Chinese cuisine,

499
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: but perhaps due in part as well to Buddhist influence.

500
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: One sees meat used more for flavor flavoring, you know,

501
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: the broth flavoring vegetables by around the first century. This

502
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: is really interesting because the thoughts of Confucius here actually

503
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: remind me of something I read years ago about chopsticks

504
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 1: that has been lodged in my brain ever since. And

505
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: I think it might be part of my love relationship

506
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: with chopsticks. While I'm always looking for an excuse to

507
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: use them, they feel morally good to me. Like something

508
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: about using chopsticks isn't just esthetically pleasing, it feels virtuous.

509
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: I know that that sounds quite silly, but I think

510
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: one origin of this association in my mind is that

511
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: when I was in college, I read a book called

512
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: Empire of Signs by the French critic and sematician roll

513
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: On Barth. It was first published in nineteen seventy and

514
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: then in English translation by Richard Howard in the early

515
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and it's kind of a semiotic travelogue of Japan.

516
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: And I honestly, I don't think i'd actually vouch for

517
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: Barth very good observer of other cultures in general, even

518
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: for his time. And I think you could argue that

519
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: there are traces of kind of orientalism and his thoughts

520
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: about Asia. Apparently he was somewhat dismissive of the value

521
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: of studying Chinese culture. But I read this book many

522
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: years ago and Barth's thoughts about chopsticks always stuck with

523
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 1: me as kind of more interesting and perhaps more valid

524
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: than a lot of the rest. So here's some of

525
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: what he says about chopsticks, and this is abridged selections

526
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: from his book Empire of Signs. Quote. The instrument never pierces,

527
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: cuts or slits, never wounds, but only selects, turns, shifts.

528
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: For the chopsticks, in order to divide, must separate part

529
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: peck instead of cutting and piercing in the manner of

530
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: our implements. They never violate the food stuff either they

531
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: gradually unravel it in the case of vegetables, or else

532
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: product into separate pieces in the case of fish eels,

533
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: thereby rediscovering the natural fissures of the substance. He also writes,

534
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: by chopsticks, food becomes no longer a prey to which

535
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: one does violence meet, flesh over which one does battle,

536
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: but a substance harmoniously transferred. And then he says Finally,

537
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: of people who use chopsticks to eat maternal they tirelessly

538
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: perform the gesture which creates the mouthful, leaving to our

539
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: alimentary manners armed with pikes and knives that of predation.

540
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: Oh well, that's beautiful. I like that comparison. It somehow

541
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: rings true to me. I mean, it may be an

542
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: over generalization of the differences between the two eating cultures. Uh,

543
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, Europeans fork and knife culture on one hand

544
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: and and Japanese chopstick culture on the other hand, But

545
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: I really feel like there's something something to what he's

546
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: saying about the fact that when eating with chopsticks, one

547
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: does not make artificial cuts in the meat or in

548
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: the food in general as it is presented to you.

549
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: It's you know, it might have been cut already in

550
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: the preparation, but any separations of the food stuff's happen

551
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: along natural lines of separations. So I can think about like,

552
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: if you have a you know, a stir fried little

553
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: head of baby bock choy on your plate and you're

554
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: eating with chopsticks, the leaves come away whole as you

555
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: peel them off, or or yeah, the fish flakes along

556
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: the natural lines of its muscles. I have to say,

557
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: with Bob Choy, I'm more inclined to try and grab

558
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: the whole thing with the chopsticks and shove it into

559
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: my mouth, which is I think an important point to

560
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: make here. We talk a lot about the precision of

561
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: the chopsticks and maybe the brutal aspects of fort knife

562
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: and spoon. Um, but I we do need to remind

563
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: everyone that you can still eat like an utter slab

564
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: while using chopsticks. It's well within within range for for

565
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: for for human behavior. Oh yeah, I would often say,

566
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: even when you observe Chinese people eating, they often will say, um,

567
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: bring the bowl up to near their face as they

568
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: eat with chopsticks, And there's kind of like this beautiful

569
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: shoveling action that that I think. I think it might

570
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: be a sort of traddy. I don't know what's actually

571
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: etiquette and what's not. I mean, I feel like Western

572
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: tradition would say you don't hold the bowl up near

573
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: your face. Well, this gets into two. Sometimes you hear

574
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: it put forth that it's okay to slurp, Like slurping

575
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: the soup in in in certain Eastern traditions is a

576
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: compliment to the chef that sort of thing. I actually

577
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: did have the experience once of getting noodles at a

578
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: at a Chinese noodle shop in this was in Honolulu,

579
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: I think, so it was predominantly Chinese clientele, and I

580
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: was trying to eat consume the noodles, uh, you know,

581
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: carefully and uh. And there was actually an older woman there,

582
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: a Chinese woman who turned to me and basically let

583
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: me know, it's okay to slurp, It's okay to bring

584
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: the bowl up to your face, like this is this

585
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: is all right, that's beautiful. Yeah. But anyway, but back

586
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: to Confucius and to Bars. In both cases, there seems

587
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: to be there's this idea that the method we use

588
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: to get food from the plate into our mouths does

589
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: have some kind of psychological conditioning effect. And I can't

590
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: cite research to say that this is definitely true, but

591
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: it certainly feels true. It at least it seems to

592
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: make plausible sense. And I feel it myself when I'm eating.

593
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: I feel a different kind of effect on my mind

594
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: when I eat with chopsticks versus when I cut with

595
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: a fork and knife. On some level, anytime I'm using

596
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: a fork and knife to eat, I am picturing like

597
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: a scene from a medieval motion picture. Of motion picture

598
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: set in medieval times, not one made during the Middle

599
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 1: Age is obviously, but you know, some scene of some

600
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: brutal lord carving up his food while hounds a feast

601
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: on the bones beneath the table. Um Like, I'm somehow

602
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: employing that scene in my mind, but both negatively but

603
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: also positive positively, because there's something kind of awesome about

604
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: that scenario too. And then when I eat with chopsticks

605
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: there is something bird like, Like I'm on some level

606
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that I am being fed by a bird puppet. Well,

607
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: for me, fork and knife feels more um mechanical, artificial

608
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: and architectural, and chopsticks feel more organic and uh related

609
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: to the forms of the natural world. Again, they are

610
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: more like the extensions of your skeleton. Yeah. But it also,

611
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: as we were saying, coincides with differences in in common

612
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: preparation methods, and say, many European traditions of cooking versus

613
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: East Asian traditions of cooking were very often, though not

614
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: always very often in say Chinese cooking, ingredients are sliced

615
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: or cut up in advance. Yeah, and then this we

616
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: come back to that idea that scarce resources and a

617
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: growing population in China demanded that smaller portions of food

618
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: be cooked faster over less fuel. Um. Thus chopsticks are

619
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: an ideal way to consume the finished dish as well. Um. Though.

620
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: One of the points that Weighing makes in his book

621
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: is that you know, technically, you know that's certainly there

622
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: are a number of key advantages to cooking food. We've

623
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: touched on that and stuff to blow your mind before. Um.

624
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: It is the externalization of digestion in many respects. But

625
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: at the same time, do you have to eat it hot?

626
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: Can you know? Can't you just wait until it's room

627
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: temperature again and then you can eat it with your fingers? Uh?

628
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: We often insist on eating and hot. We're not preferring

629
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: warmer hot food. Um. I think there's some research on

630
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: why we prefer hot food, right, is there? Well, that

631
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: sounds like something we should say for a future episode

632
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: on the invention of the hot bar. But in terms

633
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: of like eating with your fingers though, uh. He Weighing

634
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: summarizes in his book again at Chopsticks, a Cultural and

635
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: Culinary History, uh, that we see the from fingers to

636
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: utensils between five hundred and a thousand b C. And

637
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: then we see spoons and chopsticks uses in an established

638
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: set of eating tools in China between three hundred and

639
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: six hundred C. So this this is the point where

640
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that if you're going to eat, you're

641
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: probably gonna need that spoon because there are going to

642
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: continue to be soups and broths and whatnot. But on

643
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: the but on the other side of the plate, you're

644
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: going to want those chopsticks because that is going to

645
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: be how you can consume all of these finer pieces.

646
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: Chopsticks and spoon. They are the Buddy cop movie of

647
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: my mouth. All Right, we're gonna take one more break,

648
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're going to discuss the

649
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: legacy of chopsticks. Alright, we're back, okay, Robert. We mentioned

650
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: a little bit about random bits of chopsticks etiquette before.

651
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: One thing we should point out is that there are

652
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: definitely some regional variations on chopsticks etiquette. You know, the

653
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: rules aren't the same everywhere you go. But some common

654
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 1: examples that I've found reading about chopstick etiquette around the

655
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: world would be One big one is you don't stab

656
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: a food with the tip tip of chopsticks. Apparently that

657
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: is just that's not cool. Yeah, that's one you have

658
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: to you have to really break down for a child

659
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: of when I was, when my own son was learning

660
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: how to use chopsticks. I mean, that's you. You want

661
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: to use them like the adults are using them, but

662
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: it's difficult at first, and the first thing that comes

663
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: to their mind is, well, I can just use this

664
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: to stab my dumplings instead, and you have to say, no,

665
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: do not stab the dumplings with that stick. It's like

666
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: licking a knife. He's just you know, it just looks,

667
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: it looks brutal and weird. Yeah, except when Dracula does it.

668
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: You know, when Gary Oldman licks the razor blade. Gary

669
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: Oldman can make anything look cool. But hey, here's another one.

670
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: I read this in several places, and I wonder how

671
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: common this rule of etiquette actually is. But what I

672
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: have read in several places is something about Chinese chopstick etiquette.

673
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: And it chilled me because I know I've violated this.

674
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: I have done it. You know how some times you're

675
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: eating a good bowl of some kind of stir fried delight,

676
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: maybe it's some kind of noodle dish, or some fried rice,

677
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: or just some kind of stir frying. You might be

678
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: searching around in your dish for that one delicious thing,

679
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: that big piece of black fungus, or that one last

680
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: shrimp or something like that. Apparently, digging around with chopsticks

681
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: in search of something can be seen as bad manners

682
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: and is something referred to as quote grave digging or

683
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: digging your grave. Huh. Well, on one hand, this seems

684
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: like it's it's a it's a rule against over utilizing

685
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: the freedom of the utensil. But on the other hand,

686
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: it also makes sense if you're thinking about a more

687
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: communal um eating scenario where you're sharing one big bowl

688
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: or of one hot pot, etcetera. Uh it, it's cheating

689
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: for you to go digging around and getting all the

690
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: choice pizza pieces of protein out before anyone else can

691
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: have a shot at them exactly. And also, I don't

692
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: know if this is the reason, but I have to

693
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: wonder if part of it is that it could be

694
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: considered insulting to the host or the cook right implying

695
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: that the dish only has a limited amount of the

696
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: good stuff and there's not enough of it. And you

697
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: want to dig around to find all of that. Again,

698
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: it's the very thing you warn a child not to do.

699
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: Don't just don't just eat the shrimp, eat the vegetables too,

700
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: for the child's own good, but also so as not

701
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: to insult the host. Right, because if you're just digging

702
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: out the shrimp, the the implication is why didn't you

703
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: just give me a bowl full of shrimp? Well that

704
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: makes sense. That makes sense as well, but also another

705
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: piece of head equipte that we can all take take

706
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: with us because sometimes it is hard to resist again

707
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: for that choice, uh, that choice delicious shrimp in there

708
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: in the noodles. Well, I find myself maybe maybe this

709
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: is bad manners in general, but I find myself in

710
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: using chopsticks, especially just trying to compose perfect little mouthfuls

711
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: of things like I want to get everything lined up together,

712
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: like a little bit of a little bit of the

713
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: carbohydrate element, a little bit of the vegetable, a little

714
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: bit of the meat or whatever, and have that all

715
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: just arranged just right before I shovel. Oh yeah, and

716
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: then if you're like me, you run the risk of

717
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: its slipping. This is my possible interpretation here, is that

718
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: sometimes we try and treat treat the chopsticks as a fork,

719
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: because with a fork, yeah, you can just go stab stab, stab, stab,

720
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: and you get your little you know, taste sensation of

721
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: four different elements lined up the one by buffet, right,

722
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: But with chopsticks, sometimes when I try and do that, uh,

723
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: there's it can be an act of folly because ultimately

724
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: maybe I should be eating it piece by piece in

725
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: a more chopsticks friendly manner. You know, one thing I've

726
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: noticed when I watch I watch a decent amount of

727
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: cooking videos with you know, actual chefs in the Asian traditions,

728
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: like Japanese chefs, Chinese chefs, and a lot of times

729
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: I see them using chopsticks still in cooking. We mentioned

730
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: that they originally played a big role in cooking, but

731
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: I see this still happening. They're like chopsticks used in

732
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: a walk, chopsticks used for or say tempera frying. Yeah.

733
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: And then you will also see with with modern um,

734
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: you know, gourmet chefs. Anyone who's ever watched you know,

735
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: some sort of a Netflix cooking show hasn't has seen

736
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: these gourmet chefs using tweezers, but in some cases chopsticks uh,

737
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: to carefully align the food on the plate and make

738
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: sure everything is position just right. Um, that's essentially the

739
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: same principle. I mean, what are tweezers but less proper chopsticks.

740
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen our coworker Dylan Fagin eating Cheetos

741
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: out of a bag with chopsticks? No, I haven't noticed this.

742
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: Gene Yes doesn't get any Cheeto dust on his fingers.

743
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: He'll have the little bag there and he's going at

744
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: it with chopsticks, and it's so cute, And I think

745
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's culturally appropriate because because because cheetos are

746
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: a snack with no nation, they're they're completely honorless. So

747
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: it's okay to use chopsticks. If anything you have, you

748
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: run the risk offending chopsticks. Now, a big part of

749
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: chops culture in the world today is that we've got

750
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 1: tons of disposable chopsticks chopsticks. Disposable chopsticks are being used

751
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: all the time, and I am I am a big

752
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: fan of reusable chopsticks, but I also admit I frequently

753
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: used the disposable ones and feel bad about how many

754
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: I've probably sent to the landfill in my lifetime. Yeah,

755
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: some of the UH the research that was provided for

756
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: us from Scott Benjamin. On this, he points out that

757
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: disposable sets, typically bamboo, weren't really created until the eighteen

758
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: hundreds and UH and and this was largely a Japanese

759
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: creation and today, UH, disposable chopsticks are a bit of

760
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 1: a problem. In Japan alone, around twenty four billion pair

761
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: are used each year, about two hundred pairs per person

762
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: each year. That's a lot of waste. Yeah, but then again,

763
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: UH less Western listeners be too judgmental on this fact.

764
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: I just remind everyone to think about your disposable straw usage,

765
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: think about your disposable for night, spoon and sport usage. Um.

766
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: I think these are all part of the same problem. Oh,

767
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: absolutely no reason to single out Japan here now. UM.

768
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: Speaking of Japan, it's also pointed out that chopsticks were

769
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: historically longer for men and shorter for women eight inches

770
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 1: for men, seven inches for women, and the actual size

771
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: of chopsticks varies now and it seems that there's no

772
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: standard length for any one country. Another pro chopsticks fact,

773
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: the blunt shape of chopsticks also makes them UH easier

774
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: on lacquer covered ornate cookware. Again, you're not going to

775
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: be stabbing and slicing with fork and knife on it.

776
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: You're going to be more politely poking at them with

777
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: the pieces of wood or in some cases of course,

778
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: pieces of metal. Now, speaking of the materials used in

779
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: chopsticks in Korea, metal chopsticks have have become the standard,

780
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: but we also find various other uh substances, both currently

781
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: and in the past, bamboo, plastic, wood, bone, stainless steel,

782
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: us as well as for the wealthy titanium gold silver

783
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: against porcelain, jade, ivory gold chopsticks. Yeah. Uh. And it's

784
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: also was once believed that chopsticks made of silver would

785
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: corrode and turn black if the food was poison So

786
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: this sounds like it's along the lines of the rhino

787
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: horn and jade. However, of course this is not true.

788
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: Silver silver will not react to arsenic or cyanide, but

789
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: it will react to garlic, onions and rotten eggs. Uh.

790
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: These are all things that produce hydrogen sulfide, which does

791
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: turn silver black. Now a few other little tidbits about

792
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: to chopstick use. Um Whang points out in his book

793
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: that you had the chopstick diet Japanese English Arthur Kamico

794
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: Barber argued in her two thousand nine book The Chopsticks

795
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: Diet that using chopsticks is healthier because it forces you

796
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: to slow down and savor and think about your food.

797
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's actually healthier, but it does

798
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: certainly force me to slow down and and save her

799
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: food more. Yeah. Yeah, again, it's presented a waning presented

800
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: it as uh something to think about, not necessarily fact. Uh.

801
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: He also points out uh in fact, he points out

802
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: several times this idea of the chopsticks cultural sphere. Uh.

803
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: This was a term coined by Japanese writer Ishiki Hashiro

804
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: and uh. He argued that chopsticks require enhanced brain coordination

805
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: and that this improves not only dexterity but also brain development,

806
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: especially in children. Now and Wang's uh points out that

807
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: scientists have reduced quote positive results on both fronts, but

808
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: that also lifetime chopsticks use might result in higher risk

809
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: for osteoarthritis in hand joints among the elderly. More work

810
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: is required in both areas, though, and perhaps this is

811
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: something that we could follow up with unstuffed to boil

812
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: your mind in the future. Yes, I definitely be interested

813
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: in that, especially given what we talked about earlier that

814
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: at least firsthand experience really makes me feel like chopsticks

815
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: are doing something to my brain. So it feels like

816
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: something different is happening to my mind when I use

817
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: them as opposed to fork and knife. Now, chopsticks also

818
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: show up in another interesting place in a now semi

819
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: famous paper that is about the dangers of not understanding

820
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: your sample correctly if you're a scientist and you're doing

821
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: something like genetics testing. And it's a principle known as

822
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: population stratification or population admixture that was discussed in a

823
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: two thousand paper by Hammer and Serota called Beware the

824
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: Chopsticks gene in the Nature publication Molecular Psychiatry. Now, the

825
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: authors of this paper tell a story to illustrate how

826
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: scientists can possibly be misled in genetics research if they're

827
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: not careful. And the story goes like this, So Robert,

828
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: once upon a time there was an ethno geneticist who

829
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: was looking for a subject to study, and he decided

830
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: he would like to figure out why certain people eat

831
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: with chopsticks and others don't. So he rounded up a

832
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: few hundred university students and he gave them questionnaires to

833
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: find out how often they used chopsticks, and then he

834
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: took cheek swabs to get DNA samples from each of them.

835
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: So his lab ran DNA analysis and cross reference the

836
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: responses to the questionnaire with the d N A and

837
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: found a huge correlation between one particular genetic marker right

838
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: in the middle of a region previously linked to other

839
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: behavioral traits and the use of chopsticks. And so then

840
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: this experiment was replicated. It was performed at several other

841
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: universities and they all got the same result. So the

842
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: original ethnogeneticist he celebrates. He decides this time to call

843
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: up the media and tell them I've found the chopsticks gene.

844
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: It is a gene that makes people prone to eat

845
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: with chopsticks. And this, again is correlation. And as we

846
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: frequently point out, is that one of the golden rules

847
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: of science is that correlation is not necessarily causation. Right,

848
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: anything that is causation should be correlated. But there are

849
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: lots of things that are correlated that it don't have

850
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: a causal relationship with each other, And this could very

851
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: well be one of those examples because in this story,

852
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: unfortunately the geneticist discovers only several years later that this

853
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: particular gene is actually a histo compatibility antigen gene that

854
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with dining utensils. But it just

855
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: happens to be in a real that's more common in

856
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: people with recent Asian ancestry than with other ethnic groups.

857
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: So the point is to illustrate that you could find

858
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: a gene associated with the trait. The level of statistical

859
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: correlation can be highly significant, and the test can be

860
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: replicated many times, and it's still possible that your results

861
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: are biologically meaningless. This gene has nothing to do with

862
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: how you use your hands or what kind of utensils

863
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: you favor. It happens to be more common in a

864
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: population who uses chopsticks more often for cultural reasons. It's

865
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: a complete acident of culture, and it highlights a general

866
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: problem with studying populations. If you don't understand and consider

867
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: the population you're studying, it's possible to draw spurious correlations.

868
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: Using similar naive logic. You could probably find a French

869
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: accent gene or a support for Russia's World Cup team gene.

870
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: You know this, This does remind me um of an

871
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: early experience taking my my son to a Chinese restaurant.

872
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: My wife and I were there with him, and uh,

873
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: and he did not know how to use chopsticks at

874
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: the time. He's now he's six years old and uses

875
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: them extremely well. But when we first took him took

876
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: into this Chinese restaurant, uh. Uh. The the the owner

877
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: of the restaurant came around. He was saying hi and

878
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: uh and of course he noted that that my son

879
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: is is ethnically Han Chinese, and he said he pointed

880
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: out to he said, don't let him use the cheating chopsticks,

881
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: you know once where you and or he and she says,

882
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: don't let him use those. Let him just figure it

883
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: out because he has it in his d n A. Well,

884
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: that's kind of a sweet story. But yeah, it operates

885
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: on exactly the same principle, assuming that things that are

886
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: actually just accidents of culture and history are somehow in

887
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: the body, that there's something in the body that makes

888
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: you that way, right, when really it is just a

889
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: it is a it is cultural information. It's a cultural

890
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: it's cultural knowledge that has passed on and uh. And

891
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: in the case of learning, how to use chopsticks. I

892
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: will say that his his advice was, I think act

893
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: completely sound. Uh. My son used learned to use chopsticks. Uh,

894
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: not by cheating and using some sort of rubber band

895
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: h and a piece of paper rolled up. He used

896
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 1: them by watching adults use them, imitating what they were doing,

897
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: using them, you know, poorly for a while, and then

898
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: using them with competence as an adult. I'm pretty good

899
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: with chopsticks, but I did start using them at a

900
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: slightly later age. I wonder if I had started using

901
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: them at an earlier age, when I still had that

902
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: neuro plasticity window open, you know, if I had started

903
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: using them as early as I used a fork, if

904
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: if they feel more like an extension of my hand,

905
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: just kind of this perfectly intuitive part of my body. Well,

906
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: we could easily come back to a lot of this.

907
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: There's a lot of food left on the table, if

908
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: you will, um, because indeed, like, how if you start

909
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: earlier with chopsticks, are you in fact more skilled with them?

910
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 1: And then there's the question of you know, why isn't

911
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: chopsticks usage part of one's DNA? Like how long does

912
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: something have to be around in human culture before it

913
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: is part of our human genetic legacy. And then to

914
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: what extent does does cultural knowledge, uh make genetic information

915
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: less important? Oh? Well, you can certainly make that argument.

916
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: I mean a big thing about what culture is is

917
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: that culture is a great substitute for instinct You know,

918
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: you don't need quite so many inborn instincts that are

919
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: hardwired into the rain. If you have children who are

920
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 1: born as learning machines and adults who can teach them

921
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 1: what to do. Yeah, a lesson is learned by the

922
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: individual in months, whereas it would be learned by the

923
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: species across what a million years? Yeah? And I like

924
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: that about us. I like that it's fun being a

925
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: human because you can grow up learning to use fork

926
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 1: and knife, or you can grow up learning to use chopsticks.

927
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: You know, the brain works either way. If we were

928
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: some kind of lizard that just had like a hardwired

929
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: fork and knife nervous system, and chopsticks would never make

930
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: sense to us. That would be a tragedy, it would

931
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: it would it would be It would be a world

932
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: without all these fabulous inventions, including chopsticks. All right, so

933
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 1: they you have another episode of invention. We can file

934
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: that one away and if you want to check out

935
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: the files. If you want to see other episodes of

936
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: the show, head on over to invention pod dot com.

937
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: That is our website. You'll find the other episodes as

938
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: well as links out to our social media accounts. And

939
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: if you want to discuss the show with other listeners,

940
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 1: we would recommend going to stuff to Blow Your Mind

941
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: discussion module. That's a Facebook group where you know, mostly

942
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: we've talked about episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

943
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: but we're also happy to discuss episodes of Invention there

944
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: as well. Huge thanks to our friend Scott Benjamin for

945
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: research assistants on this show, and to our excellent audio

946
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: producer Torri Harrison. If you would like to get in

947
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

948
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future of Invention, or just

949
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: to say hi let us know how you found out

950
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,919
Speaker 1: about the show, you can email us at contact at

951
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: invention pod dot com.