1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. Like co host Joe, is 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: still out on parental leave, so today I'd like to 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: present a brand new interview episode. Today's guest is Dr 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Joel Berger. He's a senior scientist for the Wildlife Conservation 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: Society as well as a professor at Colorado State University. 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: He has decades of experience exploring biological diversity around the 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: world and his author of several books, including Extreme Conservation, 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: Life at the Edges of the World from Most recently, 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: he was an author on the paper Species Conflict at 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: Earth's Edges Contests, Climate and Coveted Resources, published last month 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: in the journal Frontiers and Ecology and Evolution. So we'll 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: be discussing that's study its findings, as well as some 15 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: broader issues in bio diversity and conservation. So without further ado, 16 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: let's jump right in. Hi, Joel, Welcome to the show. 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: Rob great to be here, Thanks for inviting me in. 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: You bet so. For listeners who are not familiar with 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: you or your work, how did you initially become interested 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: in conservation biology and where has your work taken you 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: over the decades. So I grew up in l A. 22 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: And that would not be Louisiana, was the l A 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: on the west coast, and a lot of people, a 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of chaos, and I found some respite out in 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: the deserts, in the mountains hundred miles two hundred miles out. 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: So gradually, growing up, I spent more time away from people, um, 27 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: and that always felt somewhat invigorating. UM. And since then 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: I've spent um what I like to call different edges 29 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: of the planet. And so that would be the highest 30 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: latitudes where and hit sea up in the Arctic, the 31 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: lowest of latitudes, which is down in the Patagonia ice 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: fields where we drop almost to the well basically to Antarctic. 33 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: But I'm on land in South America. And then what's 34 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: called the third pole south north south. And then what's 35 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: referred to as the third pole would be the mountains 36 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: of Central Asia which rise to twenty nine thousand some feet. 37 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: So why are extreme environment so crucial to these studies, 38 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: especially so far as the impact of climate change is concerned. 39 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: So we know that Earth's atmosphere is warming, and certainly 40 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: at the edges of the planet is warming anywhere from 41 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: two to five times faster than it is at the 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: mid section. And so when we think across the realm 43 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: of environments, if we want to gain some insights into 44 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: what's going on most rapidly, it is these extreme edge environments. 45 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: And I tend to focus on the unsunk species mostly 46 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: that occur in these places. Not species like elephants or rhinos, 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: or lions or tigers or even whales, but species that 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: don't have much advocacy for them. Now, I know that 49 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: the list of organisms that you've you've studied over the 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: years is pretty pretty long. What are some examples of 51 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: some of these these creatures? So some of the ones 52 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: that might be slightly better known, So I go from 53 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: slightly better known to those that are lesser known. Um 54 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: So muskoks would be one, and they're um up in 55 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: the Arctic, and they're they used to roam with wooly mammoth. 56 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: Wooly mammoths didn't survive. Muskoks have long hair that drape 57 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: to essentially to their feet and helps to sustain them 58 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: throughout these long winters. So muskoks would be one from 59 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: the very north um over in the Himalayan realm. You 60 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: have a species called talking which are Bhutan's national mammal. 61 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: They go up to seventeen thousand feet. They have the 62 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: the remarkable distinction of being preyed on by tigers at 63 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: low elevation at three or four thousand feet, and then 64 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: up high snow leopards can take some of their young 65 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: and attacks, so they have the duality of a challenge 66 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: tigers and snow leopards. Um If we drop down into 67 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: the edges of the far southern tips of Chile and Argentina, 68 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: the Chilean national mammal are called why mole, and it's 69 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: the most endangered large mammal in the Western hemisphere. Large 70 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: and they're a type of a deer, but they have 71 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: a mountain goat nits and so they live in the 72 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: shadows of glaciers, usually cliffs and very rugged terrain. So 73 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: those are some examples. I've also worked with black rhinos 74 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: and the Nama Desert. I've worked with cariboo a little 75 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: bit in the Arctic. I've worked one of my students 76 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: is working with what are called large antler munchacks, which 77 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: is one of the most recently discovered large mammals in 78 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and the Animal Mountains of Vietnam, and 79 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: so a number of these species don't have much of 80 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: a vocal backing. Another one are called saiga, which occur 81 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: in Mongolia, Kazakhstan and their populations um. The ones in 82 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: Mongolia are listed is an endangered species. I've also worked 83 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: with wild yaks up on the Tibetan Plateau at sixteen 84 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: seventeen thousand feet. So lots of these things are either 85 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: threatened or endangered, but many of them are not known 86 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: to the general public, whether we're talking about the public 87 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: and their host countries or certainly and the North American 88 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: or US public. The saiga is that is that the 89 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: one that has a very unique nose or snout. Yeah 90 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: that's great robbed Yeah. Yeah. Psychos look like part camel, 91 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: part moose, and part antelope. And they're quite fast and speedy, 92 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: and yeah, they've got these amazing probosis um that just 93 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: hang down on wobble. I want to come to the 94 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: study here that I think we're mostly going to be 95 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: talking about here, species conflict that Earth's edges, contest, climate, 96 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: and coveted resources. This was published last month in the 97 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: journal Frontiers and ecology and evolution. Can you introduce this 98 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: to the extreme environment that where this takes place and 99 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: the species observed in the field work. So amongst the 100 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: iconic and not so frequently seen large mammals again in 101 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: western North America are mountain goats, which are not even 102 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: a goat. They're really goat antelope, which are more related 103 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: to the real antelope that we have over in Africa. 104 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: But so those are mountain goats, but they live on 105 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: cliffs and very steep terrain. They have white, long fur 106 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: and are cold adaptive species. Also, the additional or the 107 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: other species in which we were witnessing direct interact since 108 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: between the two were called big horn sheep. Big horn 109 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: sheep are like sheep, big round, thick horns, and the 110 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: males smaller, little pointy horns, and the females. And the 111 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: places where we were working on these stem from Colorado. 112 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: The Colorado Rockies up to about fourteen thousand feet along 113 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: about a fifteen hundred mile gradient that puts us into 114 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: Central Alberta in Canada, areas to the north of bamp 115 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: and Jasper, and those are a little bit lower elevation, 116 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: only at about we'll just say, at a lower elevation 117 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: across the realm of where we were working on these species. 118 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: We focused mostly on the population in Glacier National Park, 119 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: but we also worked at in Alberta, also in Colorado 120 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: areas above tree line is where we were doing our observations, 121 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: and this came about. I was working with another biologist 122 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: named Forest Hayes and another one named Mark Beale. Forest 123 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: is at Colorado State University, giving credit where credit is due. 124 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: Mark Beale's a biologist where the National Park Service in 125 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: Glacier and we were looking for grizzly bears and using 126 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: a spotting scope and looking above tree lined because you 127 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: don't have trees and so it's easier spot animals. And 128 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: we kept seeing these white dots, and we were doing 129 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: our observations from about a mile mile and a half 130 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: away looking at white dots and those were mountain coats. 131 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: And at about the same time in two thousand nineteen, 132 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: we also saw gray dots and these were big horn 133 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: sheet and one was moving across the mountains from the 134 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: left to the right and the other one moving from 135 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: the right to the left, and it looks like a 136 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: collision path. And then they got to these brown wet 137 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: soil areas, and that was when we thought this is 138 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: going to get interesting. I wonder what's going to happen. 139 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: Both these goats, the mountain goats and the big horn 140 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: sheep are approximately similar in size, so we didn't know 141 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: what was going to happen. And so as these animals 142 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: were moving towards these wet grayst spots, we noted that 143 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: the goats were eating soil and the big horn sheep 144 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: would approach, but if a goat got aggressive, the sheep 145 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: would move off, and so we thought, oh, that's interesting. 146 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: We did that a little bit that day. Forest Haze 147 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: and I, who were working together, molded over and we 148 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: decided the next day we were going to go back 149 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: up to these high alpine zones and again look and 150 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: we saw more sheet, more goats. And this went on 151 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks across a couple of different years, 152 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: actually across three different years, and in Glacier National Park. 153 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: It was becoming clear to us, in part because we're 154 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: both scientists and were familiar with the literature and some 155 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: climate change underpinnings, and we knew that these areas had 156 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: been under snow when ice and glaciated not that long ago. 157 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: In fact, Glacier National Park in the last hundred years 158 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: has lost about eight of its glaciers. So this area 159 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: where we were watching sheep and goats, we were speculating 160 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: that these animals were using areas that had been well 161 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: They had to have been under ice and snow because 162 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: glaciers were there and precipitating out were minerals and these 163 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: would be salts, these would be sodium, it would be potassium. 164 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: And the goats and sheep were interacting over priority of access. 165 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: And this was These weren't bloody encounters nature too thread 166 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: and claws tennis And had said over a hundred and 167 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. But they were displacements, and they were 168 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: either passive meaning an animal walks toward another and they leave, 169 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: where they were aggressive active in which an animal was 170 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: swinging its head, lowering its horns, or maybe doing some 171 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: rush charges at the other species. And at the end 172 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: of the day we had more than about a hundred 173 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: and twenty interactions, about only seven or eight I think 174 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: it was seven in Colorado where we saw them actively 175 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: at the same site at the same time, about a 176 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: hundred or so up in Glacier, and then another almost 177 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: twenty in the Canadian site, and what struck us was 178 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: the consistency. And what I mean by consistency is this 179 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: goats won something like of the interactions, the sheep just 180 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: moved off. They didn't want to deal with it. Goats 181 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: have small, pointy horns. But it may be that the 182 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: goats just don't give good signals. They just escalate real fast, 183 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: and the sheep wanted no part of it. Because the 184 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: big horn sheep. If if my childhood memories of watching 185 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: um nature documentaries are correct, I mean they're they're pretty 186 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: fierce looking when you see them engaging with each other 187 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: in combat. So I imagine it would be easy for 188 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: at least those of us who are not experts in this, 189 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: to assume that they could more than hold their own 190 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: against a mountain goat. The sheep rear up. They have 191 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: these club like horns, I mean almost like big thick hammers, 192 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, the size of one's chest, maybe half the 193 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: size of one's cheffed. Don't want to be exaggerating here, 194 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: but they rear up and then they charged, sometimes reaching 195 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: twenty to thirty miles an hour, and they slam into 196 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: each other's horns, and then they reverberate and so we 197 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: were expecting, you know, given that they're about the same size, well, 198 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: if everything else is equal, about half the interactions, we 199 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: expect the sheep to win, half the goats to win. 200 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: People who know something about domestic goats, they just laughed 201 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: at us and said, what's wrong with you? Guys? We 202 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: knew that. And I'm thinking to myself and actually saying, well, 203 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, I've spent three decades looking at these animals 204 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: and these extreme environments, including sheep and goats, and I 205 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: didn't know it. And maybe scientists are not always the 206 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: prescient ones in this, but our data were very very 207 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: clear because lots of times there's nuanced, lots of times 208 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: there's some counterintuitive results, and we didn't expect this to 209 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: happen so consistently, and it did across the three sites. Now, 210 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: first of all, are are both the big horn sheep 211 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,239 Speaker 1: in the mountain goats in these scenarios and these encounters? 212 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: Are they both native to the regions or or or 213 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: is there an invasive layer to this? Yeah? Real good question, 214 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: rob Um. So big horns are native from essentially parts 215 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: of north central Canada or central British Columbia all the 216 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: way down into the deserts of Mexico. So they have 217 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: a very catholic range, meaning that a wide range of 218 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: tolerance that they can occur in deserts, they can occur 219 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: in mountains, they can occur in alpine zones. Mountain coats, 220 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: on the other hand, are elusively a cold adapted species, 221 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: and so when Lewis and Clark first arrived here, we'll 222 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: put it this way, their native ranges would have been 223 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: from central Idaho, Montana, Washington all the way up into 224 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: Alaska and the Yukon in a small part of the 225 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Northwest territories. So cold adapted they occur in some of 226 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: the coastal ranges of Washington UM and certainly in Alaska UM. 227 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: But since different Fish and Game agency states in the 228 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: US have introduced goats into places like Oregon, where it 229 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: maybe it's a little controversial because there's some arguments that 230 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: they were once native there, But we know that they've 231 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: been introduced into Utah, introduced into Nevada, introduced into South Dakota, 232 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: and introduced into Colorado and Wyoming. And that's where some 233 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: of this gets interesting, because different parks manage exotic species differently. 234 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: The Tetons, for instance, Institute of the program where they 235 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: would remove the shape of the goats which are introduced 236 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: or an exotic species in the Tetons, and so they 237 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: were removed by harvest by shooting in the Yellowstone area. 238 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: Goats are not abundant in Yellowstone Park, but they're more 239 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: abundant in the Yellowstone ecosystem, and the Park Service Yellowstone 240 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: in particular has a different strategy than the Tetons, and 241 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: it's more lazy, fair, just letting things go until they 242 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: perhaps know more about it. Olympic National Park over in 243 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: western Washington, goats were introduced there in the twenties and 244 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: they've been removed mostly by helicopter removal, so not lethal means, 245 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: but non lethal means. Now, what are the what were 246 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: the reasons for introducing the mountain goats to these areas. 247 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: Goats were introduced by fish and Game departments for harvest, 248 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: so like in South with Dakota in the nineteen twenties, 249 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: they were introduced into the Black Hills. I don't remember 250 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: the years at which they were introduced into Nevada. They 251 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: were introduced into Colorado in the late forties. UM today 252 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: with a focus also on bio diversity in addition to 253 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: big game, there would probably be more studies done about 254 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: potential impacts of introducing these large mammals. For instance, moose 255 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: have been introduced into Colorado in the early in mid seventies, 256 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: it may have been the late seventies. And moose, of 257 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: course are riperian dependent species, and so they affect willows, 258 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: they affect cotton woods, and they affect neotropical migrant birds. 259 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: But when these initial introductions occurred, both for mountain goats, 260 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: for moose and some other species, there was far less 261 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: attention on biological diversity and more is providing a resource 262 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: for people, either for a trophy, animal management, for bringing 263 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: some trophies home, or for meat meat on the table. 264 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: So in this scenario again we have we have mountain goats, 265 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: big horn sheep and the mountain goats are essentially out 266 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: competing for the same resource. And you mentioned that the 267 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: goat farmers and people familiar with with with goats lived 268 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: with goats were not surprised that the goats were winning 269 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: out here, and and a certain certainly brings to mind 270 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: examples of invasive or fairal domestic goats taking over various 271 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: areas and thinking specifically of like the Galapagos islands. Is it? 272 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: What is it do you think about? Or what is 273 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: known about like the the sort of nature of the goat, 274 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: Like what is it about the goats? Um Either it's 275 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: morphology or it's like tenacity, like what why does it? 276 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: Why does it win out? Why does it seem to 277 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: win out in these instances? Provocative question um so. One 278 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: idea goes as following um so, and I'm going to 279 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: focus on again big horn sheep and mountain coats. I'm 280 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: talking about native species and not stepping aside because maybe 281 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: we'll return to feral species or so. Big horn sheep 282 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: have an array of ways at which they communicate, and 283 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: they're very visual, so they have a very diverse behavioral 284 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: repertoire as to how they interact. Um. Goats are part 285 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: of a more primitive lineage and their ancestral origins are 286 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: over into Central Asia as our sheep origins, and then 287 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: further over into the Mediterranean amidiest But the goat lineage 288 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: and the mountain goat lineage in particular, the species that 289 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: are ancestral, they don't have a lot of behavioral diversity. 290 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: They don't have a lot of signals um and so 291 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: they escalate very fast, and the escalations are with their 292 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: horns either a thrust headlow rush, and I'm not sure, 293 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: and people haven't looked at this, and so this is 294 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: either wild hypothesis telling to fit with stuff to blow 295 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: your mind, or it's um maybe some speculate, well, it 296 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: is some speculations on my part, but without the potential 297 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: for signaling and recognizing other signals. What we see is 298 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: that the goats escalate fast, the sheep want no part 299 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: of it. And I want to point out that these 300 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: are for what we refer to as a biotic resources, 301 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: those not of a biological nature. So when we talk 302 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: about the competition and the behavioral or social interactions between 303 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: bighorn sheep and between with mountain goats, what we see 304 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: is that the species are clumped around those dirt patches 305 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: that I talked about the moist soil, and this is 306 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: again referred to as a mineral lick, and these are 307 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: very patchy and distributions, sometimes they may be ten or 308 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: more miles apart. So the animals go to great length 309 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: to access these, and the goats just having a more 310 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: aggressive nature, they don't mess around, and the sheep have 311 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: somehow figured that out and they back off. So I 312 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: know this. This probably brings to mind salt licks and 313 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: and so forth with some of our our listeners, but 314 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: for many others we might might be a surprise to 315 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: hear about this conflict over things that are are not food, 316 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: that are not a biological resource. So, how how rare 317 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: is this in general a biotic resources being feuded over 318 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: by organisms? However rare is it in human observation? And 319 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: how rare do we think this sort of thing is 320 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: in the wild? So um our paper which you did 321 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: refer to, and thanks for referring to that, we focused 322 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: on for a biotic resources, which will describe in a moment. 323 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: Actually i'll describe them now. We focused on shade because 324 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: if one's ever watched a dog or a cat, or 325 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: a horse or a cow or a domestic goat, it's 326 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: getting warm, the earth is warming up. Shades an important 327 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: way to try to adjust one's thermal abilities to regulate 328 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: um So shade was one snow patches, which are disappearing 329 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: at a more rapid rate at high elevation. Is the 330 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: second one mineral licks or a third one. And at 331 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: the outset when I had mentioned we were working at 332 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: the extreme edges of the planet you think about deserts. 333 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: So the fourth a biotic resource our water holes springs 334 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: in the desert, which of course are important because many 335 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: species need water, not all. So are four a biotic resources. 336 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: We selected because they're discreet and we could measure them. 337 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: When is shade available? Are there no shade trees? If 338 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: there are shade trees, can we observe interactions between different 339 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: species for access in shade? Do larger species when same 340 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: for water in the deserts? You know, we have I 341 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: mentioned and you mentioned rob domestic goats getting loose, becoming feral, 342 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: and we have certainly in the American West thousands and 343 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: thousands of feral horses and ferreal burrows, and there are 344 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: feral pigs, and so our interest was trying to understand 345 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: the nature of interactions for these very limited resources, what 346 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: we're calling coveted resources, so mineral licks at high elevation, 347 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: UH water and deserts shade. We were able to observe 348 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: a few interactions, and those were mostly over the Kalahari 349 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: Desert in the Nama Desert where rhinos displaced some antelopes. 350 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: But we only saw that those interactions very few times. 351 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: You had asked earlier, how rare is this doing these 352 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: kind of observations. I think we got lucky and at 353 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: the outside I said, we were looking for grizzly bears, 354 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: and so there was a lot of serendipity to what 355 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: we are doing. But science has a let of serendipity, 356 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: just like all of us as humans. It's like which 357 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: is the path we pick their serendipity. Going back though, 358 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: to minerals at high elevation and the conflicts that we 359 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: were watching between sheep and goats at some level, as 360 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: the climate is changing and warming, we see parts of 361 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: the Arctic where surface the surface structures are being exposed 362 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: now because we no longer have ice and perma frost, 363 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: and so the same kind of patterns that we're watching 364 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: for sheep and goats are not that different perhaps than 365 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: what we're seeing with the eight countries that have access 366 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: to the Arctic Ocean and Arctic resources. And we know 367 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: Russia has over the last ten years either reconstituted or 368 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: built new military basis in places where that they didn't 369 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: exist in the past, or fortified those. China now has 370 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: a cruiser ice breaker that they use in the Arctic, 371 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: even though they're not an arctic country, and so thinking 372 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: about mineral resources and access and conflict. UM, maybe there 373 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: are some lessons that can be learned from sheep and goats. However, 374 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: the good thing about the sheep and goats is that 375 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: they're not killing each other over the stuff. I'm not 376 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: sure I want to think forward ahead of the next 377 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: fifty years what we might be doing with those resources 378 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: as humans. So do you think that this, uh, this 379 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: this scenario, this conflict over the resources, like we can 380 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: sort of we can hold it up kind of a 381 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: mirror to human activities and and how we fit into 382 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: the into the natural world and it's resources as well. 383 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: So I'm going to answer at two levels. I'm going 384 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: to point out first and foremost that our observations were 385 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: over different species competing for a limited resource, and so 386 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: that is referred to as inter specific or differences between 387 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: species competing for the um drawing in the analogy for humans, 388 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: we have certainly different geographies as humans. We live all 389 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: over the world, we have different cultures, we have different 390 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: belief systems, but we all have the same fundamental needs. 391 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: It's usually security, it's food, it's mates, it's shelter, and 392 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: so as we continue moving beyond the eight billion that 393 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: we're at now, it's inevitable that we're going to end 394 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: up competing at some level for some of the same resources. 395 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, even though I'm looking now within species 396 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: and not between the same patterns, the same competitive interactions 397 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: at one level, whether it be combat, whether it be bluff, 398 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: whether it be escalation or de escalation, we see the 399 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 1: same things within species of other non humans, or we 400 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: also see this between species. Fascinating. Yeah, I know that 401 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: some of the I saw some of the coverage that 402 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: came out about this study was even referencing mad Max, 403 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: saying that this is like it's um, it's sheep and goats, 404 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: but but mad Max. Uh, there's some pretty cool analogies 405 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: in this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. People have had some fun 406 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: with it, and um, I mean, we have enough challenges 407 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: in the world having some fun, even though I believe 408 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: I'm a serious scientist, actually I know I'm a serious scientists. 409 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: But being able to laugh at oneself, being able to 410 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, try to appreciate the humor or the similarities 411 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: or the differences, I think it's a good way to go. 412 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: Oh yes, and if it draws somebody into to look 413 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: at a study that someone who might not otherwise you know, 414 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: be interested in it, than all the better. Yeah, just 415 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: thinking about shade. If I can go a little bit further, so, 416 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: there have been studies done in Africa of of both primates, 417 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: some chimpanzee, certainly elephants using shades um to either access 418 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: minerals or sometimes for cooling. And as are as I know, 419 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: and I could be wrong, I'm wrong all the time, 420 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: but as far as I know, UM, we don't know 421 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: if in fact shade use in these caves results in 422 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: one species being displaced by another. Um, you know, maybe 423 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: setting up some camera traps and people are now starting 424 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: to do that, we may have some better, better insights 425 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: into those kind of interactions, but for the time being, 426 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: you know, for my colleagues Mark and Forest Hayes and 427 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: I uh, it's been observational, even though we use camera 428 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: traps and other things that we do. Yeah, it's it's 429 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: this is this is so fascinating and the whole all 430 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: the details to about like communication between the sheep, communication 431 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: between the goats, and then this kind of communication breakdown 432 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: and there and then escalation and by the goats because 433 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: they are these are not species that are going to 434 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: normally be in any kind of robust communication with each other. Right, Yeah, 435 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of think about it in the 436 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: way that UM maybe some of your listeners will be 437 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: able to think about how cats and dogs respond to 438 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: each other. And sometimes, you know, dogs will have a 439 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 1: different I mean, even within breeds of dogs, there are 440 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: different kinds of communication systems, and so maybe a cat's 441 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: not going to be reading a dog and the dog 442 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: has a certain intent or vice versa. Sometimes the signals 443 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: are pretty clear. Sometimes they're not for us with the 444 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: sheep and the goats, maybe not as clear than now. 445 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: In your long career documenting different organisms and different environments 446 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: around the world, and we we we listed some of 447 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: them earlier. What sort of perspective on the threats facing 448 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: the natural world have you been afforded? Like? What? You know? What? What? What? 449 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: What kind of vantage point has it given you? So 450 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: I've worked both in UM places that are very remote 451 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: and then places that are less remote. And in the 452 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: less remote places, the challenges are mostly how we don't 453 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: destroy habitats or how we maintain habitats, trying to understand 454 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: the extent to which restoring species if they've been lost 455 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: can be a good idea, but the word conservation means people, 456 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: and it means attitudes, and so there's a lot that 457 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: has to go on involving people and our ability to 458 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: be tolerant or to think that we're not the only 459 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: species on the planet that may be deserving opportunities to live. 460 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: And then in the remote areas, the challenges are very 461 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: different their climate challenges. As we watch the edges of 462 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: the planet come come under a lot of greater variants 463 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,239 Speaker 1: with storms, well, just like we see in Florida or 464 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: the East Coast or the West coast, we're certainly seeing 465 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: that at the edges of the raw edges at the 466 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: planet as well. We have gas, we have mining, we 467 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: have mineral exploitation. A lot of that makes some sense, um, 468 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: but the question really comes down to what do we 469 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: want the future to look like? What do we want 470 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: ten years from now? Can we project out twenty or 471 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: thirty years? And if we can, how do we make 472 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: that happen? Who has to get on board? So, thinking 473 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: also about some of the challenges and remote areas and 474 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: certainly areas beyond the US, one of the remarkable problems 475 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: that people don't see very much is that there are 476 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: a lot of feral animals out there, and I think 477 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: about across the globe, we have something like seven hundred 478 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: million dogs. And I think about dogs free roaming in 479 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: places like the Tibetan Plateau. I think about dogs free 480 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: roaming in the Gobi Desert and impacts on endangered species. 481 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: I had mentioned waymole, which is the most endangered large 482 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: mammal in the western Atmisphere down at the tips of 483 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: Argentina and Chile in the Andes. Free Roman dogs, feral dogs, 484 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: not native causing lots and lots of issues and problems. 485 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of cultural differences based on 486 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: what societies were in and how we view things. And 487 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: so some countries choose a lassa fair approach and won't 488 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: touch it, and other countries will be pretty aggressive and say, 489 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: let's give some of these native species a chance because 490 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: they didn't evolve with dogs of coursing predator, uh of 491 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: coursing feral predator. So so, lots of issues out there 492 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: in terms of other kinds of challenges that are biological 493 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: challenges that still fall back in the conservation realm. But 494 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: would you say that we have we have better tools 495 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: at our disposal now to aid in these conservation efforts. 496 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: Is it more about public will or or governmental will? 497 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: I think when we consider, like the three major challenges 498 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: in the realm of natural resource, at least I look 499 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: at three. Climate change, of course is a huge one. 500 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: A second one I will call biodiversity crisis, because that 501 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: goes to land degradation, it goes to removing chunks of 502 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: the planet, it goes to our plastic issues. But so 503 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: I look at climate change is one, I look at 504 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: bio diversity, and then I look at will say, one health, 505 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: one world, one health with disease. We think about COVID, 506 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: we think about ebola, We think about these other challenges 507 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: that emanate from wild species or could from wild species. 508 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: But it's how we're treating the planet. And so your 509 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: question is do we have new tools? We certainly have 510 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: much greater recognition of of the issues. And then, of course, 511 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: as we all know as citizens of the planet, the 512 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: challenges are how are we going to solve these? And 513 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, where are we making progress? And we are 514 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: making progress and in certain places, so where we're making 515 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: some progress is stunning. And I wouldn't have thought of 516 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: this about twenty years ago. But we're rewild. In Europe. 517 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: We've got brown bears coming back into places. We've got 518 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: links that are colonizing and being put back into places. 519 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: We've got wolves that are into Germany. We've got an 520 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: area the size of California that maybe has a couple 521 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: of packs of wolves. I'm not sure Italy has over 522 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: thirty five hundred wolves with its sixty million people. UM, 523 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: so we can look into Europe. In this country, blackfooted 524 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: ferrets were extinct in the wild. We've now got blackfooted 525 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: ferrets in a number of Western states and as well 526 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: as in Canada, as well as in Mexico. Contours were 527 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: extinct in the wild. We've now got condoors in northern 528 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: California and southern California. We've got condoors in Mexico, contours 529 00:33:53,480 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: in Utah, condors in Arizona. UM, we've got although wolves 530 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: are certainly polarized. If you go back to the nineteen seventies, 531 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: the only wolves that we had were in the northern 532 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: Northern Woods. Now we've got wolves in many of the 533 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: Western states. Grizzly bears are expanding in Wyoming, expanding in Montana, 534 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: expanding in Idaho, in Washington, and so you know, we 535 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: can we can go with birds, we can, you know, 536 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: pick a wide array of different species, and we're looking 537 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: at lots of successes and that's because the people demand it. 538 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: And that's one of the nice things that we see. 539 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: And for much of this it's not even a partisan issue. 540 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: We've seen successes because irrespective of political standing, people want 541 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: bio diversity, they want healthy ecosystems, they want wildlife. Now 542 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: you're a There are several books that have come out 543 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: over the years, the most recent of which is Extreme Conservation, 544 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: Life at the Edges of the World. Can you tell 545 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: us a little bit about this book? Sure? Um, So 546 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: Extreme Conservation hits extreme environments and the species that lived there, 547 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: which must subsist and so they have to have special adaptations. 548 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: So this book works through thirty three different expeditions that 549 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: I did to different parts of the world, and so 550 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: not just one or two, but also working with local people, 551 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 1: learning from local people, listening to local people. And so, 552 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: for instance, we once worked with this convicted felon who 553 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: is a rhino poacher and his sentence was three years 554 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: on a conservation project, and so we learned from him 555 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 1: and subsequently we brought him to the US to learn 556 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: from US, and he exported and he's now back in 557 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: Namibia and he's leading an NGO non government organization. We 558 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: worked with a fellow named Freddie Goodhope Jr. He had 559 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: a lot of fun with me. He would say, Joel, 560 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: my ancestors and I have been here for ten thousand years. 561 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: You're a newcomer, but we'll keep you warm and make 562 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: sure or you're safe up here in the Arctic. And 563 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: so I weave through dealing with the UH the people 564 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: who I've learned from and how they have perceived in 565 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: their injustices that have come their way and their successes, 566 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: but then also the challenges that we've faced as conservation 567 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: biologists in the magnificent work that's being done in other places. 568 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: I spent some time on a Russian island called Wrangel Island, 569 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: where I was arrested by Russian security forces. But the 570 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: Russian scientists I worked with didn't want me arrested. They 571 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: wanted to work with me in the field. We had 572 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: US government and Russian money to look at science, to 573 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: look at climate change and how to do conservation. And 574 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: so just like in this country and elsewhere, people are 575 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 1: people in my book tries to deal through the eyes 576 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: of animals, but then through some of the learning that 577 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: I've done and the challenges of what it takes to 578 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: have cold feet on the ground working in some of 579 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: these places that can be quite brew at all excellent. 580 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: So Joe, for our our listeners out there, if they 581 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: want to follow you, if they want to learn more 582 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: about you and your work, where can they go online? 583 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: They could go to my website And so it's just 584 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: all the same, um lowercase Joel Burger Conservation dot com. 585 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: No spaces Joel Burger Conservation dot com. No spaces and 586 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: actually no spaces just means no spaces. All right. Well, 587 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: I greatly appreciate you taking time out of your day 588 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: to chat with me here today. This is this is 589 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: all fascinating, uh and I know our listeners will greatly 590 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,959 Speaker 1: enjoy this. Rob Thanks and stuff to blow your mind. 591 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: What a great show you have. Thank you. Thanks again 592 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: to Dr Joel Burger for taking time out of his 593 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: day to chat with us again. The study is Species 594 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: Conflict at Earth's Edges, Contests, climate and coveted resources. The 595 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: book is Extreme Conservation, Life at the Edges of the World. 596 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: And you and check out his website at Joel Burger 597 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: Conservation dot com. That's j O E L B E 598 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: R G E R Conservation dot com. That's it for 599 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Just a 600 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: reminder that our core episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 601 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: On Monday's we do listener Mail, on Wednesday's we do 602 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact episode, and on 603 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: Friday's we do Weird How Cinema. That's our time to 604 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a 605 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: weird film. Obviously, we'd love to hear from everyone out 606 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: there about this episode, past episodes, or future episodes. Uh 607 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: so feel free to get in touch with us. Thanks 608 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: as always to Seth Nicholas Johnson for producing the show, 609 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,399 Speaker 1: and if you do want to reach out, you can 610 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: email us at contact and Stuff to Blow your Mind 611 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 612 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio 613 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: because at the heart Rate, U app, Apple podcasts, or 614 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows