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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carold Barkwood Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is James Hassen.

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Speaker 1: James is a former Army officer, an attorney, and the

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Speaker 1: author of the national best selling book Kabul, The Untold

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Speaker 1: Story of Biden's Fiasco and the American Warriors who Fought

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Speaker 1: to the End.

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Speaker 2: Hi, James, so nice to have you on.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Carol, thanks a lot for having me. I really

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Speaker 3: appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: I've been following you for a long time. You're one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite accounts. The Hasson family in general fantastic,

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Speaker 1: really big big fans of all of you. How did

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Speaker 1: you get into being a writer or just being kind

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Speaker 1: of a public person like you are?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean a little bit by accident. My little brother,

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Speaker 4: and I'm emphasized little brother Peter is how many are there?

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Speaker 2: How many Hassen brothers are there?

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Speaker 3: There are five of us, Wow, I know. And we're

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Speaker 3: in a group.

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Speaker 4: Chat and like the rest of them just got this

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Speaker 4: idea that they're going to run a marathon together. And

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Speaker 4: I just straight up told him, like, hey, I'm very

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Speaker 4: self aware of like the stage of life that I'm man.

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Speaker 4: You guys knock yourselves out.

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Speaker 2: But oh this is new.

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Speaker 4: They just said, uh yeah, And Peter was like, it's

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Speaker 4: the flattest marathon in America, and I was like, it's

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Speaker 4: still a marathon.

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Speaker 2: We had Peter on the show.

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Speaker 1: He was fantastic, you know, like you have a kind

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Speaker 1: of a high bar to clear, but you know, no pressure.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's uh, he's a fun sized version.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I didn't think that I would kind of

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Speaker 4: have anything public facing whatsoever to the extent that I am.

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Speaker 4: But the way it all kind of kicked off is

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Speaker 4: I I just gotten out of the Army and I

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Speaker 4: was I was in law school and I was like

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Speaker 4: in turning out a firm in d C and reconnect

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Speaker 4: with a friend who was still in and she sent

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Speaker 4: me this PowerPoint of the transgender training. It was back

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Speaker 4: in like twenty fifteen when the Obama administration was doing that.

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Speaker 4: Nobody I hadn't been talked about. It wasn't like there

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Speaker 4: wasn't this whole concept of wokeness in the military, which

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Speaker 4: is now like a you know, huge topic of conversation.

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Speaker 3: And she just said, hey, like, I think you're you know,

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Speaker 3: you probably know some people in DC.

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Speaker 4: Can you get it out and I just cold emailed

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Speaker 4: an article the Federalist because.

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Speaker 3: I just was like, what's the conservative place?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 4: And they took it and then like two days later

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Speaker 4: ended up like being on Fox to talk about it

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Speaker 4: because some some producer picked it up, and.

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Speaker 3: Then they're just kind of famous. Now, yeah, flag, I guess. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: But so how.

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Speaker 1: Do you go from that to the book about the

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Speaker 1: disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan?

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Speaker 4: That yeah, also a little bit by accident. I when

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Speaker 4: everything kind of fell apart, I had, you know, I

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Speaker 4: like like everybody that was that served overseas either knew

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Speaker 4: an interpreted wanted to get out or that they were

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Speaker 4: trying to get out, or had a friend who was

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Speaker 4: in that spot, and in my case was it was

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Speaker 4: a friend who just said, Hey, do you know anybody

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Speaker 4: that can get this this guy and his seven kids out?

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Speaker 4: And you know, I like made some phone calls and

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Speaker 4: some people that are much savurer than I.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. We were able to eventually get them

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Speaker 3: out there living in Houston. They're done great. But after

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Speaker 3: that I was kind of already talking.

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Speaker 4: To people who were really plugged in, and I happened

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Speaker 4: to know a couple of people who were.

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Speaker 3: There and so I was hearing from them and bit

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Speaker 3: some pieces.

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Speaker 4: I ended up just just thinking this thing is going

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Speaker 4: to be like swept under the rug, like really swept

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Speaker 4: under the rug.

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Speaker 3: So I ended up just kind of talking to like,

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Speaker 3: I mean, Jerry and I like.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're co author, Jerry, Great, great guy Ginger, but

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Speaker 5: but great, Hey, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean it was a bit of a bit of

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Speaker 4: it like a stressful book to write or a draining

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Speaker 4: book to write, because you're right, you're talking to just dozens,

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Speaker 4: i mean hundreds of people about the worst days of

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Speaker 4: their lives or and over. But it's also the most

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Speaker 4: probably almost gratifying things I've I've ever done professionally.

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Speaker 1: I could imagine that to be true, Like you feel

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Speaker 1: like you have to do it, but it's a hard

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Speaker 1: thing to do. Obviously, to take down the story of

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Speaker 1: an American disaster that things everything went wrong, and do

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Speaker 1: you have.

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Speaker 2: A bright spot out of that moment?

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Speaker 3: That's hard.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess getting the guy and his seven kids.

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Speaker 3: Out, I mean, you know, every if it if it

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Speaker 3: weren't for.

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Speaker 4: All of the you know, like eighteen nineteen year old

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Speaker 4: kids at the gates holding people through and looking out

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Speaker 4: for some interpreter who was holding up a call sign

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Speaker 4: on a you know, like broken piece of cardboard. There's

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Speaker 4: been a lot more really good people that got heard

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Speaker 4: or that didn't make it, and so I think and

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Speaker 4: in some ways for me and probably for plenty of

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Speaker 4: other people who were in Afghanistan, it was kind of

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Speaker 4: at least you felt like you were trying to do something.

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Speaker 3: You just watching the whole thing on CNN, just fall.

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Speaker 4: Part and you just want to feel like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I got a laptop and Google Earth yea here. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think it's a really long winded answer to your

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Speaker 4: very first question, but.

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Speaker 1: All right, do you do you have another book in you?

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Speaker 1: I wrote one book and I'm never doing it again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. I there are days when I'm like, man,

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Speaker 3: that'd be so much fun. And then which part? Which

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Speaker 3: part one? Having it done.

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Speaker 6: Even that I don't know, yeah I know, And then

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Speaker 6: you're yeah, you know, like I mean, you guys were

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Speaker 6: everywhere for having a co author.

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Speaker 2: It was actually I think a very big positive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, so how did how did you and Befiny?

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Speaker 1: Well, we each wrote a chapter, like you know, we

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Speaker 1: switched off on chapters and we kind of it was

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Speaker 1: naturally what was most interesting to each of us?

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Speaker 2: How did you guys do it?

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Speaker 4: It's kind of similarly, but we then swapped chapters and

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Speaker 4: edited them, and like we just have very very different

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Speaker 4: writing styles. It's like Jerry will be the first to

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Speaker 4: tell you, like he will throw everything in a word

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Speaker 4: doc and then he just like everything, all everything from me.

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Speaker 3: I do it for chapters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how I do it totally.

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Speaker 1: I sometimes I'll have like individual words and my word

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Speaker 1: dock that I want to use in my piece, and

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Speaker 1: it's not even in a sentence.

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Speaker 3: It's just by itself, you know.

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Speaker 2: A I can't replace me?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, I can't replicate that right. Oh man, now

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Speaker 4: I'm too add for that that, Like I have to

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Speaker 4: focus or else. It's like I'll just know that there's

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Speaker 4: eighteen word docks open and just to click between them

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Speaker 4: the whole time or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, well, so you have more than one job.

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Speaker 1: I mean you're also an attorney because a question that

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Speaker 1: I normally ask on here is like what if this

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Speaker 1: hadn't worked out? Like what would you? Did you have

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Speaker 1: a plan B? Which one is the plan B? Is

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Speaker 1: it being an attorney or being a writer?

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Speaker 3: Being a writer is the uh the current plan B

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Speaker 3: and long term plan A.

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Speaker 2: I don't Okay, she wants to write another book. That

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Speaker 2: then there's your answer.

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Speaker 3: I don't know about a book.

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Speaker 4: I was you know people who imagine if you had

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Speaker 4: like a lot of a lot of time, maybe have time.

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Speaker 2: Did you run a marathon with your brothers?

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Speaker 3: Still no?

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Speaker 2: Still know, no matter how much time?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Actually so PJ Peter were going, PJ funny story

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Speaker 4: about him. He actually he ran one once before, so

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Speaker 4: like a brag about him, and then Dounk caught him.

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Speaker 4: But he did it without without.

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Speaker 2: Training really just like couch to marathon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just literally, but he wasn't like a senior in

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Speaker 3: high school. He was running.

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Speaker 6: He was gonna run like yeah, a senior in high

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Speaker 6: school that yeah, and then she got it go well,

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Speaker 6: she got a cramp and had to stop, and he

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Speaker 6: was like, well I'm running, so like I was going.

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Speaker 4: And he he finished it, but by the end he

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Speaker 4: was I mean, he.

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Speaker 3: Was like just limping across.

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Speaker 4: And there were these two like hot ladies in there,

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Speaker 4: like late seventies, early eighties, just running together and we

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Speaker 4: just watched them slow.

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Speaker 3: And they're encouraging him.

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Speaker 2: Go young man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And so then after that when he was like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: have you run a marathon?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Man, you placed third in the eighty five and

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Speaker 3: older kid?

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Speaker 1: So do you remind him of that when he suggests

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Speaker 1: running another marathon?

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Speaker 4: Yep, yep, I mean brothers are merci Oh, it's it's

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Speaker 4: the best relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What would you say you're most proud of in

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Speaker 2: your life?

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Speaker 3: My family, and by that I mean my kids and

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Speaker 3: my wife.

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Speaker 2: How many you got.

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Speaker 3: Two and then a third on the way. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if I'm allowed to announce that, but I just did.

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Speaker 1: You can edit it out if you need it.

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Speaker 4: But it's you know, I like that not to get

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Speaker 4: like no, that's just not to sound really sappy about it, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'm gonna like I'm gonna do it.

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Speaker 4: There's just some times like I walk down in the

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Speaker 4: morning and like I play with my kids because they

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Speaker 4: get up like goblins of like five five, play with

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Speaker 4: them before work, and uh, you know, I just kind

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Speaker 4: of look around and think, like, man, I made here,

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Speaker 4: I am and there are plenty of mornings I don't

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Speaker 4: have that. But but you're too busy like wiping yogurt

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Speaker 4: off my you know, as you do.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I never.

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Speaker 4: Understood you know when people would say that until like

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Speaker 4: about their their own kids.

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Speaker 2: Until I don't know what you don't know?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, just can't. Yeah, you've you can't really you

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Speaker 4: can't really explain it. But you also don't need to

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Speaker 4: if someone else's Yeah, same spot.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right

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Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So for a long

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Speaker 1: time there was this discourse about having kids where women

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Speaker 1: were told, it's like the worst, it's so bad, it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it destroys your whole life. You have no personality. Afterwards,

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Speaker 1: you as an independent person, cease to exist. And now

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Speaker 1: that is aimed at boys and men, and I find

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Speaker 1: that so scary because I think that it's taking.

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Speaker 2: You could see it working.

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Speaker 1: The people are falling for it, the the andrew Tates

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Speaker 1: of the world who are like, you know, being married

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Speaker 1: is stupid and you know, yeah, you could have kids,

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Speaker 1: but make sure you have it with like ten different people.

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Speaker 2: It's scary to watch.

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Speaker 4: You know what I it is Well, first of all,

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Speaker 4: it really is, you know, and it's just a sociopath.

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Speaker 3: But but he's also a loser.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, both yeah.

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Speaker 4: And so so many of those guys who are shouting

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Speaker 4: that out like that, yeah, as the world like getting married's.

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Speaker 2: Gay and getting married to a.

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Speaker 4: Woman great boy, Like yeah cool. I think it's just

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Speaker 4: such a like defense mechanism.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, of course, I like I'm not married, and

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Speaker 3: I have no idea to.

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Speaker 4: Do it right right, I don't know it.

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Speaker 3: It just seems like it.

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Speaker 1: How do we get the message out that it's like

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Speaker 1: the greatest thing ever? And you know, when I ask

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Speaker 1: you what you're most proud of in your life, it's

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Speaker 1: your family.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny because actually I talked to my wife

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Speaker 4: Katie about that sometimes, and uh, just because plenty of

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Speaker 4: women that she knows like kind of you know, like

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Speaker 4: bought the same lie or at least yeah, and and

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Speaker 4: they're or just see on social media and you know,

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Speaker 4: punny guys like you know, and I think in a

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Speaker 4: way like just kind of being just being open and

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Speaker 4: joyful about everyone's like.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's just so hard. It's like, yeah, it's hard,

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Speaker 3: but it's also like the best super.

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Speaker 4: Cool yeah yeah, you know, And and social media does

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Speaker 4: this kind of has this like perverse incentive where everyone

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Speaker 4: wants to you know, play into the stereotype and like

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Speaker 4: look at whatever it is that they're.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, say the edgy thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: So and also people probably don't want to like be

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Speaker 4: posting pictures of their kids on.

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Speaker 2: X reason understandable. Yeah I don't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: So then like it kind of creates this just utterly

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Speaker 4: skewed perspective.

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Speaker 3: But I think just be yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're also not supposed to like not brag. But

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Speaker 1: it's like you can talk about out how incredible single

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Speaker 1: life is. Like there's so many videos about like women

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Speaker 1: who are like I woke up at ten am today,

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Speaker 1: you know, just all this like being singles the best,

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Speaker 1: I took up the whole bed. Chelsea Handler does a

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Speaker 1: lot of these kinds of videos. But if I start

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Speaker 1: making videos about like I am so happy with my husband,

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Speaker 1: I like, you know, like yeah, we it.

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Speaker 4: Just everyone's just like, Okay, well yeah, you're not allowed

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Speaker 4: to do that.

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Speaker 3: You're like bragging in your.

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Speaker 1: Country, right, You're totally not allowed to do that because

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Speaker 1: I mean we we know that one is better than

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Speaker 1: the other and that's why one is bragging and one

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Speaker 1: is not.

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Speaker 4: Right right, No, exactly like it. It definitely has like

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Speaker 4: an air of just trying too hard. Yeah, if you're

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Speaker 4: if you're really thrilled with what you're doing right, the camera.

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Speaker 2: Your lighting going, and then and then roll around in

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Speaker 2: your bed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like why not just go about your day? That's awesome,

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Speaker 3: Just to go enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: James, give us a five year out prediction can be

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Speaker 1: about anything at all.

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Speaker 4: Man, go one of two ways on that. Okay, So

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Speaker 4: I think I think that there's going to be a

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Speaker 4: really strong trend towards basically people doing exactly the kinds

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Speaker 4: of things you know, I were just talking about in

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Speaker 4: terms of leaning into getting married, having a family, basically

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Speaker 4: almost like a return to really traditionalism.

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Speaker 2: But I love it. Very optimistic. Yeah, that is a

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Speaker 2: hot take. I don't get a lot of that.

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Speaker 3: But but like.

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Speaker 4: Some people now kind of coming back because it seems

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Speaker 4: like the only thing that to them.

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Speaker 3: It's like subjective, it's true, it's it's time tested. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I think I don't know, you could only like

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Speaker 3: Gen Next did pretty well after.

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Speaker 2: The Boomers, right, I don't think so I'm gen X.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, like you guys, you guys like to

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Speaker 4: to your horn, but we do like to like did

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Speaker 4: pretty well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I don't know. I think it'd be like

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Speaker 3: a snapback.

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Speaker 2: And so in the next five years, you think we're

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Speaker 2: going to see us start.

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Speaker 4: I'll start to see some of it. I think you'll

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Speaker 4: start to see like the beginnings of it.

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Speaker 2: Because the most optimistic one I've ever gotten.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, I was trying to think of

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Speaker 4: something that wasn't like uh Ai is going to make us.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I got a lot of predictions.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, and like a really bold optimistic one

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Speaker 4: would be like China somehow collapses.

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Speaker 3: But that's not happening.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, not happening the way things are

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Speaker 1: going right now, Like we're on a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a roll.

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Speaker 2: I know, we're recording this.

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Speaker 1: I mean these have always come out a few weeks later,

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Speaker 1: but we're recording this right when the protests are going

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Speaker 1: on in Iran.

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Speaker 2: But we haven't.

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Speaker 1: Decided or it looks like we may have a strike

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Speaker 1: as soon as tonight. But who knows, anything could happen.

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Speaker 1: You know, trying to get into the mind of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is never that easy to do. But I feel

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Speaker 1: like the Western world and the freedom loving world is

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Speaker 1: really on a bit.

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Speaker 2: Of a role right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of it is kind of amazing what

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Speaker 4: happens when you act like you're the strongest country in

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Speaker 4: the history of humanity instead of that's exactly it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, not giving them palettes of cash like things change.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, believe or not, people were spun incentives it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean it is, it is kind of it's fun

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Speaker 3: to watch. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was just in Singapore over the break. It was

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Speaker 2: my second time there. Loved it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's ethnically Chinese, like, it's nothing about

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Speaker 1: Chinese people. Well, that says that they don't want to

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Speaker 1: have some level of freedom that the Singaporeans have.

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Speaker 2: I mean they have a really strict society.

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Speaker 1: There's no porn, there's no you know, chewing gum, there's

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Speaker 1: no drugs. But in general they still have a kind

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Speaker 1: of freedom that Chinese people simply don't have.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think.

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Speaker 1: It's you know that that one's more of a stretch.

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Speaker 1: Actually they're both kind of a stretch. Think they are

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Speaker 1: going to things.

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Speaker 2: Are going to turn around and.

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Speaker 1: People are going to start maybe the five traditional families, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: probably you have.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, this is kind of a little bit of

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Speaker 3: a shift, right If the.

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Speaker 1: Carol Markowitz Show is still around in twenty forty one

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Speaker 1: will have your back too.

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Speaker 4: You know, and you're like you're the interviewing people with

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Speaker 4: like babies in the background.

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Speaker 2: Everywhere exactly, there's just kids, kids all over the place. Well, James,

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Speaker 2: I have loved.

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Speaker 1: This conversation, love getting to know you a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: Leave us here with your best tip from my listeners

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Speaker 1: on how they can improve their lives.

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Speaker 4: This sounds weird because I'm on you know, I'm on

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Speaker 4: Twitter of all places, but I try to mute all

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Speaker 4: the the insanity as much as I can. But I

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Speaker 4: got rid of Facebook and Instagram and all of that.

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Speaker 2: But Instagram is the happy one years ago.

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Speaker 4: Ah see, that's that's my hot take because I think

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Speaker 4: Instagram is like really responsible for so much. I mean,

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Speaker 4: think about it, Like all we're doing is encouraging everyone

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Speaker 4: to kind of look at themselves and videotape themselves.

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Speaker 2: I guess I don't.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't really post stuff like that, I

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Speaker 1: mean on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: But also like I don't like the boomer vision of Instagram. Now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think things have changed a little, people like

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Speaker 1: no longer taking pictures of their lunch, but Instagram, like

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Speaker 1: X to me, is still the most negative one. It's

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Speaker 1: the one that I take off of my phone for

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Speaker 1: several weeks at a time, like when I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: take a break, and it's such a negative.

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Speaker 2: And I'm addicted to it.

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Speaker 1: I love it so much and it is such a negative,

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Speaker 1: horrible place. But Instagram it's like pretty pictures and like

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Speaker 1: handbags and vacations, and I guess the thing is algorithm, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well maybe I definitely try to curate because as soon

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Speaker 1: as I get any political anything, I scroll, like quickly

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Speaker 1: scroll right past it.

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Speaker 2: I can't. You know, it's not Instagram.

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Speaker 1: It's not for politics, as long as you're not comparing

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Speaker 1: yourself or thinking like all this person has, Oh this

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Speaker 1: person's on a yacht and I'm you know, in my

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Speaker 1: office recording this podcast.

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Speaker 4: That's that was the second half of it was basically,

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Speaker 4: you know, like the less that you can kind of

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Speaker 4: compare yourself to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, compare.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, all right, So your your advice is stay off

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Speaker 1: the internet or off the social.

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Speaker 3: Media the internexplorer.

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Speaker 4: But I would just say, if if I were giving

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Speaker 4: advice to me, yeah, five years before that, I would

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Speaker 4: have said, stop stop scrolling and thinking that everyone else

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Speaker 4: has this like perfect life, because if you look at

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Speaker 4: it and everyone goes on vacation once a year, you

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Speaker 4: follow with yeah, sixty five people, it's going to look

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Speaker 4: to you like everyone is on vacation all the time.

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Speaker 2: Such a good point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. We'll follow

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Speaker 1: your advice to stay off the socials as much as possible.

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Speaker 2: He is James Hassen. Check out his book Cobbled Untold

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00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: story of Biden's fiasco and the American warriors who fought

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Speaker 2: to the end. Thank you so much, James.

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Speaker 3: Hey, thanks a lot.

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Speaker 1: Carol,