WEBVTT - Behind the Scenes of The Nameless Man 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.476 Pushkin. I think the fear of journalists is always that 0:00:22.516 --> 0:00:25.996 we parachute into these realms that we actually don't know 0:00:26.356 --> 0:00:29.516 very much about, and that we're going to get something wrong. 0:00:29.756 --> 0:00:32.036 And so I remember I reached out to you with 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:35.356 my fingers crossed that you would basically agree to be 0:00:35.396 --> 0:00:38.036 a consultant on this, and I'm super grateful that you 0:00:38.116 --> 0:00:39.876 agreed to it. Yeah. 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:42.596 No, I was really glad to do it and really 0:00:42.636 --> 0:00:44.436 excited about how the story turned out. 0:00:45.276 --> 0:00:49.396 But James, you and I this is not our first collaboration, No, 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:53.036 it's not. We actually had a far more stressful collaboration, 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:58.836 which was little league flag football where we went to 0:00:58.916 --> 0:00:59.636 the Super Bowl. 0:01:00.876 --> 0:01:04.956 We did we almost made it. We were like two 0:01:04.996 --> 0:01:12.316 minutes away from being the New Haven area and under champs. 0:01:13.156 --> 0:01:16.716 I'm talking here with James Foreman Junior. He's a former 0:01:16.716 --> 0:01:19.916 public defender who now teaches at the Yale Law School, 0:01:20.356 --> 0:01:23.436 and also he's my friend. We even coached our kids 0:01:23.476 --> 0:01:27.916 flag football team together. I really trust James, and so 0:01:28.396 --> 0:01:30.436 I brought him on to be our legal consultant for 0:01:30.436 --> 0:01:34.076 The Nameless Man. He listened to each episode in draft 0:01:34.116 --> 0:01:36.876 form and gave us great notes that I think made 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:40.396 this series much stronger. We had some really good conversations, 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:44.516 and I wanted to keep that going. So one day 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:47.316 we sat down at the Yale Porvus Center for Teaching 0:01:47.396 --> 0:01:51.076 and Learning to discuss his reactions to the series. The 0:01:51.116 --> 0:01:53.476 first thing that I wanted to talk to James about 0:01:53.796 --> 0:01:56.676 was the one guy I really wanted to talk to 0:01:57.196 --> 0:02:08.436 and couldn't, Craig Peterson. I want to talk about Craig 0:02:08.556 --> 0:02:13.716 because these agents pursue this. Right, they drive up to Vermont, 0:02:13.996 --> 0:02:17.756 they say, you know, we believe you were involved with this. 0:02:18.476 --> 0:02:21.516 He he denies this. He says, I don't know what 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:23.676 you're talking about. He then, about a year and a 0:02:23.676 --> 0:02:27.876 half later, calls them. They have a subpoena ready for him, saying, 0:02:27.916 --> 0:02:30.276 we're gonna we want you to testify. You you are 0:02:30.316 --> 0:02:33.196 going to be required to testify by this subpoena in 0:02:33.236 --> 0:02:36.836 this grand jury looking into the into this murder that 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:44.276 we believed happened. And at that point there's this pivotal 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:47.236 moment and this whole thing where he asks for immunity 0:02:47.316 --> 0:02:49.756 and confesses. How do you wrap your head around that 0:02:49.836 --> 0:02:51.236 sequence of events? 0:02:51.876 --> 0:02:55.116 I mean, there's so many things about that part of 0:02:55.156 --> 0:02:58.876 the story that are you know, unusual. I mean, it's 0:02:58.956 --> 0:03:06.076 unusual for somebody to confess under so little pressure. Uh, 0:03:06.156 --> 0:03:10.556 you know, what you've outlined was, you know, relatively mild. 0:03:10.836 --> 0:03:13.116 But then the immunity part is the part that just 0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:15.716 I mean, the first time you told me about it, 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:19.276 I had like seventeen different questions because I've never seen 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:23.756 anything like it. Normally, you would want to have more 0:03:23.876 --> 0:03:29.516 corroboration of what Craig is saying before you're going to 0:03:29.596 --> 0:03:36.076 grant him immunity, because maybe Craig is more involved than 0:03:36.116 --> 0:03:40.476 he's letting on. And so I was surprised by how 0:03:40.556 --> 0:03:44.316 early it came. The whole process of immunity is normally 0:03:44.396 --> 0:03:47.476 just much more formalized, and you know, things are different 0:03:47.636 --> 0:03:52.636 in different jurisdictions and practices are different everywhere, but particularly 0:03:52.836 --> 0:03:56.676 as this was a federal prosecutor, it was that I 0:03:56.676 --> 0:04:00.516 think was particularly surprising how informal the process was. 0:04:00.756 --> 0:04:03.436 We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit. But it's 0:04:03.476 --> 0:04:05.556 on the topic of Craig, and this is a question 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:08.956 I asked Scott Duffy to the FBI agent, how does 0:04:08.996 --> 0:04:12.396 it sit with you that Craig never faces prosecution. 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:16.276 I'm not a huge fan of him. Not being prosecuted, 0:04:17.636 --> 0:04:21.756 although I don't think that most people who are prosecuted 0:04:21.996 --> 0:04:24.916 need to go to prison, and those that do to 0:04:24.996 --> 0:04:27.156 go to prison, I don't typically think need to go 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:32.676 for very long. I like to separate my views of 0:04:32.796 --> 0:04:37.356 prison from my views of prosecution, and I know it's 0:04:37.396 --> 0:04:41.276 hard to do because in our society they're so closely 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:45.276 linked because we don't have other forms of accountability. 0:04:45.476 --> 0:04:47.716 Yeah, Like, I'm trying to wrap my head around that, Like, 0:04:47.716 --> 0:04:50.196 are you suggesting he'd be prosecuted and then just have 0:04:50.316 --> 0:04:53.396 like a very short criminal sentence and then have that 0:04:53.476 --> 0:04:54.476 on his record. 0:04:54.956 --> 0:04:58.956 Yes, or some version thereof what I'm really drawn to, 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:02.956 which is in some ways is beyond the scope of 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:05.636 the podcast in one sense and the system that we in. 0:05:05.796 --> 0:05:09.916 But I'm very drawn to models of restorative justice. So 0:05:09.996 --> 0:05:16.116 I'm very drawn to the idea that what we really 0:05:16.156 --> 0:05:23.676 want to be thinking about is identifying harm and trying 0:05:23.716 --> 0:05:33.116 to remedy and respect and recognize that harm. Right now, 0:05:33.196 --> 0:05:38.076 what we do is, we, you know, identify people that 0:05:38.116 --> 0:05:43.516 we label as criminals, and we prosecute and typically we 0:05:43.596 --> 0:05:54.156 incarcerate them. People who are victims of crime often are 0:05:54.236 --> 0:06:05.476 desperate to know why did you do this, Why my child, 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:15.716 my brother, my grandson, And how do you feel about 0:06:15.756 --> 0:06:20.156 what you've done, the harm that you've caused? Like, we 0:06:20.276 --> 0:06:28.436 could have very different models where people are called to account, 0:06:28.636 --> 0:06:32.636 where people who have committed harm have an opportunity to 0:06:32.676 --> 0:06:36.836 really dwell in the pain that they've caused and look 0:06:36.996 --> 0:06:39.956 directly in the eyes of people who they've hurt or 0:06:40.036 --> 0:06:43.916 family members of people who they've hurt if it's a homicide, 0:06:45.916 --> 0:06:51.356 and acknowledge that pain and apologize. And I would like 0:06:51.436 --> 0:06:53.836 to see what that might look like in a case 0:06:54.116 --> 0:06:55.756 like this, And I would want to see what the 0:06:55.876 --> 0:06:58.116 how the Wood family would feel about that. 0:06:58.116 --> 0:07:01.356 That's there's a bunch to unpack there. But the first 0:07:01.396 --> 0:07:04.956 thought that occurs to me is, in this situation, you've 0:07:04.996 --> 0:07:07.476 got an You've got a kind of unusual or interesting 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:10.676 situation because you have theory. We have two perpetrators of 0:07:10.716 --> 0:07:12.556 the crime, the guy that pulled the trigger and the 0:07:12.556 --> 0:07:12.876 guy that. 0:07:12.916 --> 0:07:13.636 Drove the car. 0:07:14.156 --> 0:07:17.676 The guy that drove the car is admitting to doing it, 0:07:17.796 --> 0:07:21.556 and according to Carmen Leinberger is expressing to her deep 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:25.836 remorse during the grand jury, and she said, remorse to 0:07:25.916 --> 0:07:26.436 his soul. 0:07:27.196 --> 0:07:32.596 What if he were sitting in their living room, telling 0:07:32.636 --> 0:07:38.156 them that how would they how would they feel? And 0:07:38.196 --> 0:07:40.316 they might also want to be involved in it with 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:43.516 him in a conversation about well, what could he do 0:07:43.596 --> 0:07:47.596 to make amends? I mean saying you're sorry, looking somebody 0:07:47.596 --> 0:07:50.476 in the eye, looking that family in the eye. That's 0:07:50.516 --> 0:07:55.236 a courageous thing. That's a good start, right looking at them, 0:07:55.516 --> 0:07:58.876 saying here's what I did, Here's why I did it, 0:07:59.476 --> 0:08:02.356 Here's what put me in that driver's seat that night, 0:08:03.356 --> 0:08:07.596 Here's how I feel about having testified. And I know 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:11.436 that all those things are they're so small compared to 0:08:11.476 --> 0:08:13.996 the harm that I cause. So I'm not asking to 0:08:14.036 --> 0:08:16.676 be a hero, far from it. But I do want 0:08:16.756 --> 0:08:22.396 you to understand that I have taken some steps. Now 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:26.756 can we be in dialogue about what else I could do? 0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:35.076 When you do restorative justice conferences, the kinds of ideas 0:08:36.076 --> 0:08:39.876 that come from the families of victims are much broader 0:08:41.876 --> 0:08:45.596 than what the criminal justice system says, right, which is 0:08:45.636 --> 0:08:50.516 basically either like incarceration or probation or conviction on your 0:08:50.516 --> 0:08:53.476 record for life. As you said, a lot of times, 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:56.116 people even they don't want that, that doesn't make them 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:59.436 feel whole. But I bet there are other things that 0:08:59.516 --> 0:09:03.156 could come which would at least begin to start to 0:09:03.396 --> 0:09:06.356 fill the whole that will never be filled. 0:09:09.196 --> 0:09:13.516 Yeah, it occurs to me that in talking to you, 0:09:13.556 --> 0:09:16.756 the Wood family, who is the one that was most 0:09:16.876 --> 0:09:20.396 profoundly impacted by this, they never had that. And when 0:09:20.436 --> 0:09:22.396 I think about that, that seems kind of crazy. 0:09:22.876 --> 0:09:26.916 That's our system. It's it's completely crazy. And just to 0:09:27.036 --> 0:09:31.436 be clear, like that could yet be rectified. Right, all 0:09:31.436 --> 0:09:34.196 these people that we're talking about are still alive. I mean, 0:09:34.236 --> 0:09:39.596 I've seen situations where, you know, victims would go with 0:09:40.956 --> 0:09:45.516 Craig and they would go and they would speak about 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:49.836 the perils of white supremacy and the perils of getting 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:54.516 drawn into that kind of lifestyle. Right, they would speak 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:57.276 to people who maybe were in some ways at risk 0:09:58.196 --> 0:10:01.756 of going down that path. I teach a class that 0:10:01.836 --> 0:10:05.716 has law students and incarcerated students studying the criminal legal 0:10:05.756 --> 0:10:09.636 system together. When we talk about sentencing, one of the 0:10:09.676 --> 0:10:12.436 things that my incarcerated students talk about all the time 0:10:13.876 --> 0:10:18.516 is how the law prohibits them from having any contact 0:10:19.156 --> 0:10:25.196 with the victim. In many cases, they talk about how 0:10:25.236 --> 0:10:31.276 they've been locked up for years and they have wanted 0:10:31.836 --> 0:10:36.076 to say some version of I'm sorry, but in like 0:10:36.116 --> 0:10:39.276 in a deep, complex, nuanced way that tells their story 0:10:39.316 --> 0:10:45.676 and really conveys that they've wanted to write letters to 0:10:45.836 --> 0:10:49.356 people so that they can know how sorry they are, 0:10:50.116 --> 0:10:53.196 they can know how every day that they're locked up 0:10:53.236 --> 0:10:58.436 they think about the pain that they caused. They can't 0:10:58.476 --> 0:11:03.356 do that in our system, they're prohibited from doing it. 0:11:03.716 --> 0:11:07.796 And so there's just so and again you can understand 0:11:07.836 --> 0:11:09.996 why a system might say, well, you know, you can't 0:11:10.036 --> 0:11:12.276 have contact because they're worried that the contact won't be 0:11:12.316 --> 0:11:16.796 of the form that I just described. But this is, 0:11:17.076 --> 0:11:20.196 in a lot of ways, you know, a tragic example 0:11:20.356 --> 0:11:25.116 of our system making choices that sometimes that there's a 0:11:25.196 --> 0:11:28.036 rational that you can understand why we got here, but 0:11:28.076 --> 0:11:31.156 it then leads to all of these horrific outcomes. 0:11:31.196 --> 0:11:33.596 Well, I mean, we live in a system where it 0:11:33.636 --> 0:11:38.356 seems like the only metric for justice is days, months, 0:11:38.476 --> 0:11:43.236 years of punishment, like that's whether justice was served or not. 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:45.556 Yep, And in fact I'm guilty of it. 0:11:45.596 --> 0:11:49.116 When when I asked Scott about the Scott DeFi how 0:11:49.156 --> 0:11:51.276 do you feel? Or even the question I posed to you, 0:11:51.356 --> 0:11:56.796 Craig walked free. I think the presumption is the only 0:11:56.836 --> 0:12:01.156 reckoning that can occur here is incarceration. And this leads 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:04.076 to this other thing, which is that in this case 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:09.996 you had a lot of good people advocating and motivated 0:12:10.076 --> 0:12:13.476 by a desire to help first find the Wood family, 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:16.476 to identify the victim, and then to do. 0:12:16.476 --> 0:12:17.076 Right by them. 0:12:17.156 --> 0:12:19.876 This is what Scott and Terry are motivated by. 0:12:19.876 --> 0:12:21.036 They want to. 0:12:20.676 --> 0:12:23.836 Put Tom Geibison away, and so everything is focused on 0:12:23.916 --> 0:12:27.556 that Tom does spend time in jail, and then when 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:30.876 he gets out, no one calls the family to tell 0:12:30.876 --> 0:12:32.236 them that he's been released. 0:12:34.196 --> 0:12:38.036 That was one of the most difficult parts of this 0:12:38.716 --> 0:12:44.516 podcast to listen to for me, because to me, it's 0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:50.196 just a reminder of how, you know, prison and punishment 0:12:50.316 --> 0:12:54.836 centered our system is, but not victims centered. We justify 0:12:54.916 --> 0:12:58.396 the prison and the punishment in the name of caring 0:12:58.436 --> 0:13:05.996 about victims, but we don't do these basic, just decent 0:13:06.196 --> 0:13:09.996 things that you would want to do for our family, 0:13:10.116 --> 0:13:15.476 particularly where for so long this case was uninvestigated and 0:13:16.516 --> 0:13:20.596 unprosecuted and unpunished. I just I just thought, to me, 0:13:21.476 --> 0:13:26.236 it just exemplified so many of the things that are 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:27.276 wrong with our system. 0:13:27.756 --> 0:13:30.876 It's interesting because when we had this conversation initially, and 0:13:30.916 --> 0:13:36.236 I said, Tom, Tom got seven years. Your reaction was, 0:13:36.396 --> 0:13:39.596 if I recall, was something about seven years is a 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:42.556 good chunk of time, Like you didn't think that was 0:13:42.596 --> 0:13:43.316 the injustice? 0:13:43.636 --> 0:13:49.076 No, no, But I think my views on that are, 0:13:49.996 --> 0:13:55.516 you know, they're informed by how horrible I know that 0:13:56.036 --> 0:14:02.036 prison is. They're informed by this earlier conversation that we 0:14:02.036 --> 0:14:05.476 were just having, which is that I don't want to 0:14:05.476 --> 0:14:10.516 live in a system which met measures the value of 0:14:10.556 --> 0:14:12.996 a victim, the worth of the victim only by the 0:14:13.076 --> 0:14:16.436 number of years that the person gets for harming them. 0:14:17.316 --> 0:14:22.156 And so I guess for me, as somebody who thinks 0:14:22.156 --> 0:14:28.836 we should have dramatically shorter sentences across the board, I 0:14:29.316 --> 0:14:32.396 you know, I work hard to try to put that 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:36.556 into practice. Now I don't. I'm not gonna lie like 0:14:36.596 --> 0:14:42.076 there's you know, I have cases too where you know, 0:14:42.236 --> 0:14:47.436 my first reaction is, you know, lock them up for life. 0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:50.796 But then what I try to do is temper that. 0:14:51.116 --> 0:14:54.516 And so in this case, it seemed based on the 0:14:54.556 --> 0:14:58.156 evidence that he was guilty, and I wanted him to 0:14:58.196 --> 0:15:03.636 be convicted. But wanting somebody to be convicted right identified 0:15:03.716 --> 0:15:08.596 as the person who did this is different from wanting 0:15:08.636 --> 0:15:10.516 them to spend the rest of their life in a dungeon. 0:15:11.556 --> 0:15:14.236 And that difference I tried to hold on to. 0:15:15.316 --> 0:15:17.436 You say you were hoping for a conviction, but where 0:15:17.436 --> 0:15:20.356 did you think this was going? Based on what you 0:15:20.476 --> 0:15:22.716 heard from our recreation of the trial. 0:15:24.356 --> 0:15:29.716 I thought that the defense lawyer did a good job. 0:15:30.156 --> 0:15:33.196 What I liked about the defense attorney was how passionate 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:35.876 he was. One of the many problems we have in 0:15:35.916 --> 0:15:40.356 our system is that sometimes defense lawyers don't have either 0:15:40.396 --> 0:15:43.916 the expertise, or the resources or the commitment. So he 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:46.556 seemed to have all of those things, and so it 0:15:46.796 --> 0:15:50.036 felt to me like a robust defense, which I want 0:15:50.636 --> 0:15:57.156 to happen in every case. But to me, as the 0:15:57.196 --> 0:16:04.116 evidence came in, and of course it was you know, Craig, 0:16:04.996 --> 0:16:11.956 but also yes, that to me was crucial. Those I 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:15.956 remember when you first introduced those witnesses into the story, 0:16:16.036 --> 0:16:19.516 I thought, oh, those, that is a damning fact. The 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:22.436 reason why those two witnesses were so important, I thought, 0:16:22.636 --> 0:16:26.756 is that they didn't have a motive to fabricate. And 0:16:26.796 --> 0:16:32.196 that's always the key thing. There's basically right, two kinds 0:16:32.316 --> 0:16:37.316 of defenses that you can put forward. One is they're mistaken. 0:16:38.596 --> 0:16:44.236 And the second is they're lying. The defense that they're 0:16:44.356 --> 0:16:49.956 lying is typically always a more powerful defense. But to 0:16:50.076 --> 0:16:53.076 make the claim that they're lying, you have to have 0:16:53.556 --> 0:16:57.196 a motive to fabricate why are they lying. And I 0:16:58.236 --> 0:17:02.076 never thought that the defense in this case had an 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:06.636 adequate explanation for why they would be lying. 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:10.076 Yeah, his line of argument was they were scorned lovers. 0:17:10.236 --> 0:17:12.116 In other words, you know, he cheated on them or 0:17:12.156 --> 0:17:14.476 broke up with them, or but that would be quite 0:17:14.476 --> 0:17:15.276 a grudge, right. 0:17:15.276 --> 0:17:18.596 Yeah, that's a grudge. And then two separately that was 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:23.956 too independently decide to take out their grudge in the 0:17:24.036 --> 0:17:28.476 same way by going to court and testifying from somebody 0:17:28.516 --> 0:17:33.156 from all these years ago who had a history of violence. 0:17:33.956 --> 0:17:39.836 Testifying in a trial is not an easy matter. Testifying 0:17:39.876 --> 0:17:43.036 in a homicide trial is especially not an easy matter. 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:47.236 Testifying in a homicide trial against somebody who had a 0:17:47.396 --> 0:17:51.196 history of violence in the way that Tom did. This 0:17:51.316 --> 0:17:53.636 is not something you do lightly. So it was not 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:56.876 enough for me of a motive to fabricate. And is 0:17:56.916 --> 0:18:02.916 why I remember thinking, Okay, well, maybe Craig has some motive. 0:18:02.996 --> 0:18:06.396 Maybe the jury would think that Craig had some motive 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:11.236 but when you're there. The good news is you're there 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:13.956 so you can testify everything that happened. The bad news is, 0:18:14.156 --> 0:18:17.956 by your own account, you're an accomplice to murder. And 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:22.156 so if you're willing to kill somebody for no reason, 0:18:23.476 --> 0:18:26.596 you might be willing to lie in court right And 0:18:26.676 --> 0:18:30.036 so him by himself to me was never going to 0:18:30.076 --> 0:18:36.116 be enough. But the two independent girlfriends with no motive 0:18:36.156 --> 0:18:40.596 that I found plausible was what made me think that 0:18:40.676 --> 0:18:48.276 Tom was guilty. The evidence was, I think, strong, but limited, 0:18:48.796 --> 0:18:51.876 and so the jury wanted to ask a lot of 0:18:51.956 --> 0:18:59.156 hard questions about whether it matched up exactly, and you know, 0:18:59.476 --> 0:19:00.676 they landed where they landed. 0:19:02.356 --> 0:19:05.436 We'll be right back with more from my conversation with 0:19:05.556 --> 0:19:13.556 James Forman Jr. I want to talk a little bit 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:19.276 about you, because you've had an interesting career. Before you 0:19:19.316 --> 0:19:22.356 were a professor here at Yale, you were a public 0:19:22.356 --> 0:19:25.796 defender and I guess was it an interview that you 0:19:25.916 --> 0:19:29.836 had where you were kind of up for considering a 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:32.916 position as a prosecutor. You want to tell us about that. 0:19:34.276 --> 0:19:38.156 I remember this conversation really well to this day. So 0:19:39.196 --> 0:19:41.356 I was working as a law clerk at the time, 0:19:41.476 --> 0:19:45.196 so I was working for Justice O'Connor, and I was 0:19:45.236 --> 0:19:49.156 trying to decide on my first real job after law school, 0:19:49.316 --> 0:19:52.236 and I had applied to the Public Defender's Office in Washington, 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:56.516 d C. And I'd also applied to work for the 0:19:56.676 --> 0:20:00.316 criminal section of the Civil Rights Division of the Department 0:20:00.356 --> 0:20:06.116 of Justice. What they do is they prosecute police brutality cases, 0:20:06.156 --> 0:20:09.636 so you know, police officers who use excessive force, and 0:20:09.636 --> 0:20:14.516 then they also prosecute, you know, cross burnings or other 0:20:14.676 --> 0:20:17.956 forms of hate crimes. And that was the position that 0:20:17.996 --> 0:20:21.876 I was interviewing for, and that job had a lot 0:20:21.916 --> 0:20:23.876 of appeal to me because I was looking at this 0:20:23.956 --> 0:20:26.716 through a civil rights and a racial justice lens. And 0:20:26.796 --> 0:20:30.716 I remember interviewing with and I won't mention her name, 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:34.596 but she was had been a public defender herself, and 0:20:34.676 --> 0:20:38.036 she it came up in conversation that I was thinking 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:42.276 about taking a job as a public defender. And as 0:20:42.276 --> 0:20:45.836 soon as I said that, I could see her sort 0:20:45.836 --> 0:20:51.036 of connect in a particular way, and she said, all right, James, 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:55.916 I want you to really imagine, you know, the following situation. 0:20:56.916 --> 0:21:01.556 You're the prosecutor in a case and it's up for sentencing, 0:21:01.836 --> 0:21:05.556 and our office has told you, here's the sentence you 0:21:05.636 --> 0:21:08.596 need to ask for, and it's a certain period of incarceration. 0:21:09.916 --> 0:21:13.116 And the defense lawyer stands up, and the defense lawyer 0:21:13.156 --> 0:21:16.356 starts to make the case to the judge about his 0:21:16.516 --> 0:21:19.916 client's background, and he says to the judge, you know, 0:21:19.996 --> 0:21:25.516 your honor, my client was abused and abandoned as a child. 0:21:26.196 --> 0:21:30.756 My client had disabilities and special needs that were never 0:21:31.676 --> 0:21:34.516 recognized by the school system. So he fell further and 0:21:34.556 --> 0:21:39.356 further and further behind. His parents were addicted to drugs. 0:21:40.196 --> 0:21:45.116 Now as a teenager, he's lost and he feels like 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:48.036 he has nowhere to turn. And there's a group of 0:21:48.076 --> 0:21:50.716 people that take him in and they say, we'll be 0:21:50.836 --> 0:21:55.956 your family. You can be one of us. But there's 0:21:55.996 --> 0:21:59.236 a catch, right, The catch to be one of us 0:22:00.116 --> 0:22:03.916 is you have to go commit this crime. You have 0:22:04.036 --> 0:22:09.556 to spray swastika on a church, or you have to 0:22:09.596 --> 0:22:14.276 throw a mothtop cocktail through the window. And he agrees 0:22:14.356 --> 0:22:16.436 to do it, and he does it because he wants 0:22:16.476 --> 0:22:18.796 to be accepted, he wants to be respected, he wants 0:22:18.836 --> 0:22:26.356 to find some validation somewhere. And the lawyer is turning 0:22:26.396 --> 0:22:29.196 to the judge and saying, so don't do what the 0:22:29.196 --> 0:22:31.876 Department of Justice is asking. Don't do what mister Foreman 0:22:31.996 --> 0:22:36.076 is asking. Don't put this young man in prison. Give 0:22:36.356 --> 0:22:41.396 him an opportunity, give him a second chance, understand all 0:22:41.476 --> 0:22:45.556 of the constraints and the limitations and the unfairness that 0:22:45.876 --> 0:22:48.156 put him in this place where he would do something wrong. 0:22:49.956 --> 0:22:53.316 And she looks at me and she says, Okay, now 0:22:54.596 --> 0:22:58.476 you've got to respond. Are you going to be prepared 0:22:58.556 --> 0:23:03.356 to listen to a story like that and still ask 0:23:04.236 --> 0:23:09.356 for this long sentence? And I looked at her, and 0:23:12.196 --> 0:23:16.756 I knew that the answer at that moment was no. 0:23:17.116 --> 0:23:19.516 I don't think that I could do that. And I 0:23:19.636 --> 0:23:22.876 even knew what she was doing. She was saying to me, Look, 0:23:23.036 --> 0:23:27.036 the people we prosecute. You might think of them as 0:23:27.596 --> 0:23:29.676 a person who's committed a hate crime, and they are. 0:23:30.036 --> 0:23:34.676 They are. But most of those people there's a story 0:23:34.796 --> 0:23:39.156 for how they became the defenders. They weren't born full 0:23:39.196 --> 0:23:42.796 of hate. They were taught that, and in many cases 0:23:42.836 --> 0:23:47.036 they overcame their natural reluctance to do something like that, 0:23:47.156 --> 0:23:51.316 to cause that kind of harm to somebody else, because 0:23:51.316 --> 0:23:53.836 of the context, because of the situation they were in, 0:23:53.916 --> 0:23:57.356 because of the life's circumstances. They have been dealt because 0:23:57.436 --> 0:24:00.836 the family that they didn't have that they needed, because 0:24:00.876 --> 0:24:03.996 of the way the system had abandoned them. That's their 0:24:04.196 --> 0:24:07.676 story too, And if you're going to be a prosecutor 0:24:07.716 --> 0:24:11.636 in this section, you have to understand that those stories 0:24:11.676 --> 0:24:15.036 are real, and you still, even in the face of that, 0:24:16.316 --> 0:24:18.636 have to be prepared to ask for this person to 0:24:18.676 --> 0:24:24.516 be locked up. It was probably the most important interview 0:24:24.516 --> 0:24:26.716 that I've ever had in my life. I will be 0:24:26.916 --> 0:24:29.916 forever grateful to her for being so honest with me 0:24:30.316 --> 0:24:32.276 because I knew in that moment I couldn't do it, 0:24:33.116 --> 0:24:37.076 and I left the office. I turned down the job offer, 0:24:37.556 --> 0:24:42.956 and that's I attribute the fact of my becoming a 0:24:42.956 --> 0:24:45.796 public defender to that conversation. 0:24:47.156 --> 0:24:50.916 Well, I have to say, I remember, I had heard 0:24:50.916 --> 0:24:56.276 you tell this story once before, and I've thought about 0:24:56.316 --> 0:24:59.756 it so many times over the course of working on 0:24:59.796 --> 0:25:02.676 this podcast. When I heard the cold hard facts of 0:25:02.716 --> 0:25:06.516 the case, two white teenagers get in a car drive 0:25:06.636 --> 0:25:10.236 to Philadelphia, and if the press execution is going to 0:25:10.276 --> 0:25:13.516 be believed, murder this innocent man in point blank range. 0:25:13.836 --> 0:25:15.996 The first sight is like, what kind of depravity, what 0:25:16.076 --> 0:25:19.476 kind of monsters? Would do something like this, and I think, 0:25:19.516 --> 0:25:22.556 and honestly, it wasn't until I heard you talk about 0:25:22.556 --> 0:25:27.156 this story that I even began to think that there 0:25:27.196 --> 0:25:30.316 was this other narrative, not that it's any means justified 0:25:30.436 --> 0:25:32.396 or to apologize for it, but that there's this other 0:25:32.516 --> 0:25:35.516 narrative that one could actually look at and see some 0:25:35.636 --> 0:25:36.356 humanity in. 0:25:37.396 --> 0:25:40.836 Yeah. Absolutely, I mean from the very first time you 0:25:40.996 --> 0:25:44.956 told me about the case and you gave me just 0:25:45.356 --> 0:25:50.676 those facts of two white teenagers drive Philadelphia kill somebody, 0:25:52.956 --> 0:25:58.036 my mind immediately went to what happened in their life 0:26:00.236 --> 0:26:03.596 to have them be in that car, driving to a 0:26:03.596 --> 0:26:06.556 city they don't know, to shoot somebody who they don't know, 0:26:06.956 --> 0:26:10.556 because aren't born ready to do that. 0:26:11.396 --> 0:26:14.756 I keep thinking back to your point about what if 0:26:14.756 --> 0:26:16.876 it would have been the split verdict, but also there 0:26:16.956 --> 0:26:21.116 was a chance for Craig to express his remorse, and 0:26:21.196 --> 0:26:27.196 whether that might not have made it feel like half 0:26:27.396 --> 0:26:30.916 justice to the family at the time. I want to talk, 0:26:31.036 --> 0:26:32.436 I want to about the Wood family, but I have 0:26:32.516 --> 0:26:34.276 one more thing that I want to ask about. This 0:26:34.316 --> 0:26:37.716 is something that I've been thinking of. When they were 0:26:37.716 --> 0:26:41.636 connecting the crime to the victim, they took that list 0:26:41.796 --> 0:26:45.756 of the particulars, the five particulars, the race, the nature 0:26:45.756 --> 0:26:48.236 of the wound, single shot to head, the thirty eight caliber, 0:26:48.676 --> 0:26:52.556 and they looked over the unsolved murders in Philadelphia at 0:26:52.596 --> 0:26:56.436 the time. A thought that's always nagged me at the 0:26:56.476 --> 0:27:00.556 back of my brain is should they have looked at 0:27:00.556 --> 0:27:06.396 the quote unquote solved murders? And I don't know, but 0:27:06.916 --> 0:27:10.516 you maybe can brite some context because if my sense 0:27:10.636 --> 0:27:13.636 is that there have been some wrongful convictions that have 0:27:13.676 --> 0:27:15.156 come out of Philadelphia, right. 0:27:15.356 --> 0:27:18.836 For sure, I mean everywhere, but you know, Philadelphia is 0:27:18.836 --> 0:27:21.436 one of the jurisdictions that has people actually who got 0:27:21.476 --> 0:27:25.196 sentenced to death who have been exonerated. Right, So, yes, 0:27:25.276 --> 0:27:28.876 absolutely there have been exonerations in Philadelphia. You know, at 0:27:28.916 --> 0:27:31.756