1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I think the fear of journalists is always that 2 00:00:22,516 --> 00:00:25,996 Speaker 1: we parachute into these realms that we actually don't know 3 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 1: very much about, and that we're going to get something wrong. 4 00:00:29,756 --> 00:00:32,036 Speaker 1: And so I remember I reached out to you with 5 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:35,356 Speaker 1: my fingers crossed that you would basically agree to be 6 00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: a consultant on this, and I'm super grateful that you 7 00:00:38,116 --> 00:00:39,876 Speaker 1: agreed to it. Yeah. 8 00:00:39,956 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 2: No, I was really glad to do it and really 9 00:00:42,636 --> 00:00:44,436 Speaker 2: excited about how the story turned out. 10 00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:49,396 Speaker 1: But James, you and I this is not our first collaboration, No, 11 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: it's not. We actually had a far more stressful collaboration, 12 00:00:53,556 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 1: which was little league flag football where we went to 13 00:00:58,916 --> 00:00:59,636 Speaker 1: the Super Bowl. 14 00:01:00,876 --> 00:01:04,956 Speaker 2: We did we almost made it. We were like two 15 00:01:04,996 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 2: minutes away from being the New Haven area and under champs. 16 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: I'm talking here with James Foreman Junior. He's a former 17 00:01:16,716 --> 00:01:19,916 Speaker 1: public defender who now teaches at the Yale Law School, 18 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:23,436 Speaker 1: and also he's my friend. We even coached our kids 19 00:01:23,476 --> 00:01:27,916 Speaker 1: flag football team together. I really trust James, and so 20 00:01:28,396 --> 00:01:30,436 Speaker 1: I brought him on to be our legal consultant for 21 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 1: The Nameless Man. He listened to each episode in draft 22 00:01:34,116 --> 00:01:36,876 Speaker 1: form and gave us great notes that I think made 23 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:40,396 Speaker 1: this series much stronger. We had some really good conversations, 24 00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 1: and I wanted to keep that going. So one day 25 00:01:44,876 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 1: we sat down at the Yale Porvus Center for Teaching 26 00:01:47,396 --> 00:01:51,076 Speaker 1: and Learning to discuss his reactions to the series. The 27 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:53,476 Speaker 1: first thing that I wanted to talk to James about 28 00:01:53,796 --> 00:01:56,676 Speaker 1: was the one guy I really wanted to talk to 29 00:01:57,196 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 1: and couldn't, Craig Peterson. I want to talk about Craig 30 00:02:08,556 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 1: because these agents pursue this. Right, they drive up to Vermont, 31 00:02:13,996 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: they say, you know, we believe you were involved with this. 32 00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:21,516 Speaker 1: He he denies this. He says, I don't know what 33 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:23,676 Speaker 1: you're talking about. He then, about a year and a 34 00:02:23,676 --> 00:02:27,876 Speaker 1: half later, calls them. They have a subpoena ready for him, saying, 35 00:02:27,916 --> 00:02:30,276 Speaker 1: we're gonna we want you to testify. You you are 36 00:02:30,316 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: going to be required to testify by this subpoena in 37 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 1: this grand jury looking into the into this murder that 38 00:02:36,836 --> 00:02:44,276 Speaker 1: we believed happened. And at that point there's this pivotal 39 00:02:44,276 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 1: moment and this whole thing where he asks for immunity 40 00:02:47,316 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: and confesses. How do you wrap your head around that 41 00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 1: sequence of events? 42 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many things about that part of 43 00:02:55,156 --> 00:02:58,876 Speaker 2: the story that are you know, unusual. I mean, it's 44 00:02:58,956 --> 00:03:06,076 Speaker 2: unusual for somebody to confess under so little pressure. Uh, 45 00:03:06,156 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 2: you know, what you've outlined was, you know, relatively mild. 46 00:03:10,836 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 2: But then the immunity part is the part that just 47 00:03:13,916 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 2: I mean, the first time you told me about it, 48 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:19,276 Speaker 2: I had like seventeen different questions because I've never seen 49 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 2: anything like it. Normally, you would want to have more 50 00:03:23,876 --> 00:03:29,516 Speaker 2: corroboration of what Craig is saying before you're going to 51 00:03:29,596 --> 00:03:36,076 Speaker 2: grant him immunity, because maybe Craig is more involved than 52 00:03:36,116 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 2: he's letting on. And so I was surprised by how 53 00:03:40,556 --> 00:03:44,316 Speaker 2: early it came. The whole process of immunity is normally 54 00:03:44,396 --> 00:03:47,476 Speaker 2: just much more formalized, and you know, things are different 55 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:52,636 Speaker 2: in different jurisdictions and practices are different everywhere, but particularly 56 00:03:52,836 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 2: as this was a federal prosecutor, it was that I 57 00:03:56,676 --> 00:04:00,516 Speaker 2: think was particularly surprising how informal the process was. 58 00:04:00,756 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 1: We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit. But it's 59 00:04:03,476 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 1: on the topic of Craig, and this is a question 60 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:08,956 Speaker 1: I asked Scott Duffy to the FBI agent, how does 61 00:04:08,996 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 1: it sit with you that Craig never faces prosecution. 62 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 2: I'm not a huge fan of him. Not being prosecuted, 63 00:04:17,636 --> 00:04:21,756 Speaker 2: although I don't think that most people who are prosecuted 64 00:04:21,996 --> 00:04:24,916 Speaker 2: need to go to prison, and those that do to 65 00:04:24,996 --> 00:04:27,156 Speaker 2: go to prison, I don't typically think need to go 66 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: for very long. I like to separate my views of 67 00:04:32,796 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 2: prison from my views of prosecution, and I know it's 68 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 2: hard to do because in our society they're so closely 69 00:04:41,356 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 2: linked because we don't have other forms of accountability. 70 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:47,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I'm trying to wrap my head around that, Like, 71 00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:50,196 Speaker 1: are you suggesting he'd be prosecuted and then just have 72 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: like a very short criminal sentence and then have that 73 00:04:53,476 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: on his record. 74 00:04:54,956 --> 00:04:58,956 Speaker 2: Yes, or some version thereof what I'm really drawn to, 75 00:04:59,236 --> 00:05:02,956 Speaker 2: which is in some ways is beyond the scope of 76 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:05,636 Speaker 2: the podcast in one sense and the system that we in. 77 00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:09,916 Speaker 2: But I'm very drawn to models of restorative justice. So 78 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:16,116 Speaker 2: I'm very drawn to the idea that what we really 79 00:05:16,156 --> 00:05:23,676 Speaker 2: want to be thinking about is identifying harm and trying 80 00:05:23,716 --> 00:05:33,116 Speaker 2: to remedy and respect and recognize that harm. Right now, 81 00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 2: what we do is, we, you know, identify people that 82 00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:43,516 Speaker 2: we label as criminals, and we prosecute and typically we 83 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:54,156 Speaker 2: incarcerate them. People who are victims of crime often are 84 00:05:54,236 --> 00:06:05,476 Speaker 2: desperate to know why did you do this, Why my child, 85 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 2: my brother, my grandson, And how do you feel about 86 00:06:15,756 --> 00:06:20,156 Speaker 2: what you've done, the harm that you've caused? Like, we 87 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 2: could have very different models where people are called to account, 88 00:06:28,636 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 2: where people who have committed harm have an opportunity to 89 00:06:32,676 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 2: really dwell in the pain that they've caused and look 90 00:06:36,996 --> 00:06:39,956 Speaker 2: directly in the eyes of people who they've hurt or 91 00:06:40,036 --> 00:06:43,916 Speaker 2: family members of people who they've hurt if it's a homicide, 92 00:06:45,916 --> 00:06:51,356 Speaker 2: and acknowledge that pain and apologize. And I would like 93 00:06:51,436 --> 00:06:53,836 Speaker 2: to see what that might look like in a case 94 00:06:54,116 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 2: like this, And I would want to see what the 95 00:06:55,876 --> 00:06:58,116 Speaker 2: how the Wood family would feel about that. 96 00:06:58,116 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: That's there's a bunch to unpack there. But the first 97 00:07:01,396 --> 00:07:04,956 Speaker 1: thought that occurs to me is, in this situation, you've 98 00:07:04,996 --> 00:07:07,476 Speaker 1: got an You've got a kind of unusual or interesting 99 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:10,676 Speaker 1: situation because you have theory. We have two perpetrators of 100 00:07:10,716 --> 00:07:12,556 Speaker 1: the crime, the guy that pulled the trigger and the 101 00:07:12,556 --> 00:07:12,876 Speaker 1: guy that. 102 00:07:12,916 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 2: Drove the car. 103 00:07:14,156 --> 00:07:17,676 Speaker 1: The guy that drove the car is admitting to doing it, 104 00:07:17,796 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 1: and according to Carmen Leinberger is expressing to her deep 105 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:25,836 Speaker 1: remorse during the grand jury, and she said, remorse to 106 00:07:25,916 --> 00:07:26,436 Speaker 1: his soul. 107 00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:32,596 Speaker 2: What if he were sitting in their living room, telling 108 00:07:32,636 --> 00:07:38,156 Speaker 2: them that how would they how would they feel? And 109 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:40,316 Speaker 2: they might also want to be involved in it with 110 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:43,516 Speaker 2: him in a conversation about well, what could he do 111 00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 2: to make amends? I mean saying you're sorry, looking somebody 112 00:07:47,596 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 2: in the eye, looking that family in the eye. That's 113 00:07:50,516 --> 00:07:55,236 Speaker 2: a courageous thing. That's a good start, right looking at them, 114 00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:58,876 Speaker 2: saying here's what I did, Here's why I did it, 115 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:02,356 Speaker 2: Here's what put me in that driver's seat that night, 116 00:08:03,356 --> 00:08:07,596 Speaker 2: Here's how I feel about having testified. And I know 117 00:08:07,756 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 2: that all those things are they're so small compared to 118 00:08:11,476 --> 00:08:13,996 Speaker 2: the harm that I cause. So I'm not asking to 119 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:16,676 Speaker 2: be a hero, far from it. But I do want 120 00:08:16,756 --> 00:08:22,396 Speaker 2: you to understand that I have taken some steps. Now 121 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:26,756 Speaker 2: can we be in dialogue about what else I could do? 122 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:35,076 Speaker 2: When you do restorative justice conferences, the kinds of ideas 123 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 2: that come from the families of victims are much broader 124 00:08:41,876 --> 00:08:45,596 Speaker 2: than what the criminal justice system says, right, which is 125 00:08:45,636 --> 00:08:50,516 Speaker 2: basically either like incarceration or probation or conviction on your 126 00:08:50,516 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 2: record for life. As you said, a lot of times, 127 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 2: people even they don't want that, that doesn't make them 128 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:59,436 Speaker 2: feel whole. But I bet there are other things that 129 00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:03,156 Speaker 2: could come which would at least begin to start to 130 00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:06,356 Speaker 2: fill the whole that will never be filled. 131 00:09:09,196 --> 00:09:13,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, it occurs to me that in talking to you, 132 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: the Wood family, who is the one that was most 133 00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:20,396 Speaker 1: profoundly impacted by this, they never had that. And when 134 00:09:20,436 --> 00:09:22,396 Speaker 1: I think about that, that seems kind of crazy. 135 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:26,916 Speaker 2: That's our system. It's it's completely crazy. And just to 136 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:31,436 Speaker 2: be clear, like that could yet be rectified. Right, all 137 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:34,196 Speaker 2: these people that we're talking about are still alive. I mean, 138 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 2: I've seen situations where, you know, victims would go with 139 00:09:40,956 --> 00:09:45,516 Speaker 2: Craig and they would go and they would speak about 140 00:09:46,076 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 2: the perils of white supremacy and the perils of getting 141 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:54,516 Speaker 2: drawn into that kind of lifestyle. Right, they would speak 142 00:09:54,516 --> 00:09:57,276 Speaker 2: to people who maybe were in some ways at risk 143 00:09:58,196 --> 00:10:01,756 Speaker 2: of going down that path. I teach a class that 144 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 2: has law students and incarcerated students studying the criminal legal 145 00:10:05,756 --> 00:10:09,636 Speaker 2: system together. When we talk about sentencing, one of the 146 00:10:09,676 --> 00:10:12,436 Speaker 2: things that my incarcerated students talk about all the time 147 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:18,516 Speaker 2: is how the law prohibits them from having any contact 148 00:10:19,156 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 2: with the victim. In many cases, they talk about how 149 00:10:25,236 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 2: they've been locked up for years and they have wanted 150 00:10:31,836 --> 00:10:36,076 Speaker 2: to say some version of I'm sorry, but in like 151 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 2: in a deep, complex, nuanced way that tells their story 152 00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:45,676 Speaker 2: and really conveys that they've wanted to write letters to 153 00:10:45,836 --> 00:10:49,356 Speaker 2: people so that they can know how sorry they are, 154 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 2: they can know how every day that they're locked up 155 00:10:53,236 --> 00:10:58,436 Speaker 2: they think about the pain that they caused. They can't 156 00:10:58,476 --> 00:11:03,356 Speaker 2: do that in our system, they're prohibited from doing it. 157 00:11:03,716 --> 00:11:07,796 Speaker 2: And so there's just so and again you can understand 158 00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 2: why a system might say, well, you know, you can't 159 00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:12,276 Speaker 2: have contact because they're worried that the contact won't be 160 00:11:12,316 --> 00:11:16,796 Speaker 2: of the form that I just described. But this is, 161 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:20,196 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, you know, a tragic example 162 00:11:20,356 --> 00:11:25,116 Speaker 2: of our system making choices that sometimes that there's a 163 00:11:25,196 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 2: rational that you can understand why we got here, but 164 00:11:28,076 --> 00:11:31,156 Speaker 2: it then leads to all of these horrific outcomes. 165 00:11:31,196 --> 00:11:33,596 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we live in a system where it 166 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:38,356 Speaker 1: seems like the only metric for justice is days, months, 167 00:11:38,476 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 1: years of punishment, like that's whether justice was served or not. 168 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:45,556 Speaker 2: Yep, And in fact I'm guilty of it. 169 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:49,116 Speaker 1: When when I asked Scott about the Scott DeFi how 170 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 1: do you feel? Or even the question I posed to you, 171 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:56,796 Speaker 1: Craig walked free. I think the presumption is the only 172 00:11:56,836 --> 00:12:01,156 Speaker 1: reckoning that can occur here is incarceration. And this leads 173 00:12:01,156 --> 00:12:04,076 Speaker 1: to this other thing, which is that in this case 174 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:09,996 Speaker 1: you had a lot of good people advocating and motivated 175 00:12:10,076 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 1: by a desire to help first find the Wood family, 176 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:16,476 Speaker 1: to identify the victim, and then to do. 177 00:12:16,476 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 2: Right by them. 178 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:19,876 Speaker 1: This is what Scott and Terry are motivated by. 179 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 2: They want to. 180 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:23,836 Speaker 1: Put Tom Geibison away, and so everything is focused on 181 00:12:23,916 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 1: that Tom does spend time in jail, and then when 182 00:12:27,556 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: he gets out, no one calls the family to tell 183 00:12:30,876 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 1: them that he's been released. 184 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 2: That was one of the most difficult parts of this 185 00:12:38,716 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 2: podcast to listen to for me, because to me, it's 186 00:12:44,556 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 2: just a reminder of how, you know, prison and punishment 187 00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:54,836 Speaker 2: centered our system is, but not victims centered. We justify 188 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:58,396 Speaker 2: the prison and the punishment in the name of caring 189 00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:05,996 Speaker 2: about victims, but we don't do these basic, just decent 190 00:13:06,196 --> 00:13:09,996 Speaker 2: things that you would want to do for our family, 191 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 2: particularly where for so long this case was uninvestigated and 192 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 2: unprosecuted and unpunished. I just I just thought, to me, 193 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 2: it just exemplified so many of the things that are 194 00:13:26,276 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 2: wrong with our system. 195 00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:30,876 Speaker 1: It's interesting because when we had this conversation initially, and 196 00:13:30,916 --> 00:13:36,236 Speaker 1: I said, Tom, Tom got seven years. Your reaction was, 197 00:13:36,396 --> 00:13:39,596 Speaker 1: if I recall, was something about seven years is a 198 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:42,556 Speaker 1: good chunk of time, Like you didn't think that was 199 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:43,316 Speaker 1: the injustice? 200 00:13:43,636 --> 00:13:49,076 Speaker 2: No, no, But I think my views on that are, 201 00:13:49,996 --> 00:13:55,516 Speaker 2: you know, they're informed by how horrible I know that 202 00:13:56,036 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 2: prison is. They're informed by this earlier conversation that we 203 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 2: were just having, which is that I don't want to 204 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 2: live in a system which met measures the value of 205 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 2: a victim, the worth of the victim only by the 206 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:16,436 Speaker 2: number of years that the person gets for harming them. 207 00:14:17,316 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 2: And so I guess for me, as somebody who thinks 208 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 2: we should have dramatically shorter sentences across the board, I 209 00:14:29,316 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 2: you know, I work hard to try to put that 210 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 2: into practice. Now I don't. I'm not gonna lie like 211 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 2: there's you know, I have cases too where you know, 212 00:14:42,236 --> 00:14:47,436 Speaker 2: my first reaction is, you know, lock them up for life. 213 00:14:48,316 --> 00:14:50,796 Speaker 2: But then what I try to do is temper that. 214 00:14:51,116 --> 00:14:54,516 Speaker 2: And so in this case, it seemed based on the 215 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:58,156 Speaker 2: evidence that he was guilty, and I wanted him to 216 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 2: be convicted. But wanting somebody to be convicted right identified 217 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:08,596 Speaker 2: as the person who did this is different from wanting 218 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 2: them to spend the rest of their life in a dungeon. 219 00:15:11,556 --> 00:15:14,236 Speaker 2: And that difference I tried to hold on to. 220 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:17,436 Speaker 1: You say you were hoping for a conviction, but where 221 00:15:17,436 --> 00:15:20,356 Speaker 1: did you think this was going? Based on what you 222 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 1: heard from our recreation of the trial. 223 00:15:24,356 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 2: I thought that the defense lawyer did a good job. 224 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:33,196 Speaker 2: What I liked about the defense attorney was how passionate 225 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:35,876 Speaker 2: he was. One of the many problems we have in 226 00:15:35,916 --> 00:15:40,356 Speaker 2: our system is that sometimes defense lawyers don't have either 227 00:15:40,396 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 2: the expertise, or the resources or the commitment. So he 228 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:46,556 Speaker 2: seemed to have all of those things, and so it 229 00:15:46,796 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 2: felt to me like a robust defense, which I want 230 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:57,156 Speaker 2: to happen in every case. But to me, as the 231 00:15:57,196 --> 00:16:04,116 Speaker 2: evidence came in, and of course it was you know, Craig, 232 00:16:04,996 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 2: but also yes, that to me was crucial. Those I 233 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:15,956 Speaker 2: remember when you first introduced those witnesses into the story, 234 00:16:16,036 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, those, that is a damning fact. The 235 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 2: reason why those two witnesses were so important, I thought, 236 00:16:22,636 --> 00:16:26,756 Speaker 2: is that they didn't have a motive to fabricate. And 237 00:16:26,796 --> 00:16:32,196 Speaker 2: that's always the key thing. There's basically right, two kinds 238 00:16:32,316 --> 00:16:37,316 Speaker 2: of defenses that you can put forward. One is they're mistaken. 239 00:16:38,596 --> 00:16:44,236 Speaker 2: And the second is they're lying. The defense that they're 240 00:16:44,356 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 2: lying is typically always a more powerful defense. But to 241 00:16:50,076 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 2: make the claim that they're lying, you have to have 242 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:57,196 Speaker 2: a motive to fabricate why are they lying. And I 243 00:16:58,236 --> 00:17:02,076 Speaker 2: never thought that the defense in this case had an 244 00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 2: adequate explanation for why they would be lying. 245 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, his line of argument was they were scorned lovers. 246 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:12,116 Speaker 1: In other words, you know, he cheated on them or 247 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:14,476 Speaker 1: broke up with them, or but that would be quite 248 00:17:14,476 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 1: a grudge, right. 249 00:17:15,276 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a grudge. And then two separately that was 250 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 2: too independently decide to take out their grudge in the 251 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:28,476 Speaker 2: same way by going to court and testifying from somebody 252 00:17:28,516 --> 00:17:33,156 Speaker 2: from all these years ago who had a history of violence. 253 00:17:33,956 --> 00:17:39,836 Speaker 2: Testifying in a trial is not an easy matter. Testifying 254 00:17:39,876 --> 00:17:43,036 Speaker 2: in a homicide trial is especially not an easy matter. 255 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:47,236 Speaker 2: Testifying in a homicide trial against somebody who had a 256 00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:51,196 Speaker 2: history of violence in the way that Tom did. This 257 00:17:51,316 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 2: is not something you do lightly. So it was not 258 00:17:53,876 --> 00:17:56,876 Speaker 2: enough for me of a motive to fabricate. And is 259 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:02,916 Speaker 2: why I remember thinking, Okay, well, maybe Craig has some motive. 260 00:18:02,996 --> 00:18:06,396 Speaker 2: Maybe the jury would think that Craig had some motive 261 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 2: but when you're there. The good news is you're there 262 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:13,956 Speaker 2: so you can testify everything that happened. The bad news is, 263 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:17,956 Speaker 2: by your own account, you're an accomplice to murder. And 264 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:22,156 Speaker 2: so if you're willing to kill somebody for no reason, 265 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:26,596 Speaker 2: you might be willing to lie in court right And 266 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:30,036 Speaker 2: so him by himself to me was never going to 267 00:18:30,076 --> 00:18:36,116 Speaker 2: be enough. But the two independent girlfriends with no motive 268 00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 2: that I found plausible was what made me think that 269 00:18:40,676 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 2: Tom was guilty. The evidence was, I think, strong, but limited, 270 00:18:48,796 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 2: and so the jury wanted to ask a lot of 271 00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 2: hard questions about whether it matched up exactly, and you know, 272 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:00,676 Speaker 2: they landed where they landed. 273 00:19:02,356 --> 00:19:05,436 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from my conversation with 274 00:19:05,556 --> 00:19:13,556 Speaker 1: James Forman Jr. I want to talk a little bit 275 00:19:13,556 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 1: about you, because you've had an interesting career. Before you 276 00:19:19,316 --> 00:19:22,356 Speaker 1: were a professor here at Yale, you were a public 277 00:19:22,356 --> 00:19:25,796 Speaker 1: defender and I guess was it an interview that you 278 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:29,836 Speaker 1: had where you were kind of up for considering a 279 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:32,916 Speaker 1: position as a prosecutor. You want to tell us about that. 280 00:19:34,276 --> 00:19:38,156 Speaker 2: I remember this conversation really well to this day. So 281 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 2: I was working as a law clerk at the time, 282 00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 2: so I was working for Justice O'Connor, and I was 283 00:19:45,236 --> 00:19:49,156 Speaker 2: trying to decide on my first real job after law school, 284 00:19:49,316 --> 00:19:52,236 Speaker 2: and I had applied to the Public Defender's Office in Washington, 285 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 2: d C. And I'd also applied to work for the 286 00:19:56,676 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 2: criminal section of the Civil Rights Division of the Department 287 00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:06,116 Speaker 2: of Justice. What they do is they prosecute police brutality cases, 288 00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:09,636 Speaker 2: so you know, police officers who use excessive force, and 289 00:20:09,636 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 2: then they also prosecute, you know, cross burnings or other 290 00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:17,956 Speaker 2: forms of hate crimes. And that was the position that 291 00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:21,876 Speaker 2: I was interviewing for, and that job had a lot 292 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:23,876 Speaker 2: of appeal to me because I was looking at this 293 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:26,716 Speaker 2: through a civil rights and a racial justice lens. And 294 00:20:26,796 --> 00:20:30,716 Speaker 2: I remember interviewing with and I won't mention her name, 295 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:34,596 Speaker 2: but she was had been a public defender herself, and 296 00:20:34,676 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 2: she it came up in conversation that I was thinking 297 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 2: about taking a job as a public defender. And as 298 00:20:42,276 --> 00:20:45,836 Speaker 2: soon as I said that, I could see her sort 299 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:51,036 Speaker 2: of connect in a particular way, and she said, all right, James, 300 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:55,916 Speaker 2: I want you to really imagine, you know, the following situation. 301 00:20:56,916 --> 00:21:01,556 Speaker 2: You're the prosecutor in a case and it's up for sentencing, 302 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:05,556 Speaker 2: and our office has told you, here's the sentence you 303 00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 2: need to ask for, and it's a certain period of incarceration. 304 00:21:09,916 --> 00:21:13,116 Speaker 2: And the defense lawyer stands up, and the defense lawyer 305 00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:16,356 Speaker 2: starts to make the case to the judge about his 306 00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:19,916 Speaker 2: client's background, and he says to the judge, you know, 307 00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:25,516 Speaker 2: your honor, my client was abused and abandoned as a child. 308 00:21:26,196 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 2: My client had disabilities and special needs that were never 309 00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:34,516 Speaker 2: recognized by the school system. So he fell further and 310 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:39,356 Speaker 2: further and further behind. His parents were addicted to drugs. 311 00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:45,116 Speaker 2: Now as a teenager, he's lost and he feels like 312 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:48,036 Speaker 2: he has nowhere to turn. And there's a group of 313 00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:50,716 Speaker 2: people that take him in and they say, we'll be 314 00:21:50,836 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 2: your family. You can be one of us. But there's 315 00:21:55,996 --> 00:21:59,236 Speaker 2: a catch, right, The catch to be one of us 316 00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:03,916 Speaker 2: is you have to go commit this crime. You have 317 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 2: to spray swastika on a church, or you have to 318 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:14,276 Speaker 2: throw a mothtop cocktail through the window. And he agrees 319 00:22:14,356 --> 00:22:16,436 Speaker 2: to do it, and he does it because he wants 320 00:22:16,476 --> 00:22:18,796 Speaker 2: to be accepted, he wants to be respected, he wants 321 00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:26,356 Speaker 2: to find some validation somewhere. And the lawyer is turning 322 00:22:26,396 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 2: to the judge and saying, so don't do what the 323 00:22:29,196 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 2: Department of Justice is asking. Don't do what mister Foreman 324 00:22:31,996 --> 00:22:36,076 Speaker 2: is asking. Don't put this young man in prison. Give 325 00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:41,396 Speaker 2: him an opportunity, give him a second chance, understand all 326 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:45,556 Speaker 2: of the constraints and the limitations and the unfairness that 327 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:48,156 Speaker 2: put him in this place where he would do something wrong. 328 00:22:49,956 --> 00:22:53,316 Speaker 2: And she looks at me and she says, Okay, now 329 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:58,476 Speaker 2: you've got to respond. Are you going to be prepared 330 00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 2: to listen to a story like that and still ask 331 00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 2: for this long sentence? And I looked at her, and 332 00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:16,756 Speaker 2: I knew that the answer at that moment was no. 333 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 2: I don't think that I could do that. And I 334 00:23:19,636 --> 00:23:22,876 Speaker 2: even knew what she was doing. She was saying to me, Look, 335 00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 2: the people we prosecute. You might think of them as 336 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:29,676 Speaker 2: a person who's committed a hate crime, and they are. 337 00:23:30,036 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 2: They are. But most of those people there's a story 338 00:23:34,796 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 2: for how they became the defenders. They weren't born full 339 00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:42,796 Speaker 2: of hate. They were taught that, and in many cases 340 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 2: they overcame their natural reluctance to do something like that, 341 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:51,316 Speaker 2: to cause that kind of harm to somebody else, because 342 00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 2: of the context, because of the situation they were in, 343 00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:57,356 Speaker 2: because of the life's circumstances. They have been dealt because 344 00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:00,836 Speaker 2: the family that they didn't have that they needed, because 345 00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:03,996 Speaker 2: of the way the system had abandoned them. That's their 346 00:24:04,196 --> 00:24:07,676 Speaker 2: story too, And if you're going to be a prosecutor 347 00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:11,636 Speaker 2: in this section, you have to understand that those stories 348 00:24:11,676 --> 00:24:15,036 Speaker 2: are real, and you still, even in the face of that, 349 00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:18,636 Speaker 2: have to be prepared to ask for this person to 350 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:24,516 Speaker 2: be locked up. It was probably the most important interview 351 00:24:24,516 --> 00:24:26,716 Speaker 2: that I've ever had in my life. I will be 352 00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 2: forever grateful to her for being so honest with me 353 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:32,276 Speaker 2: because I knew in that moment I couldn't do it, 354 00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:37,076 Speaker 2: and I left the office. I turned down the job offer, 355 00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:42,956 Speaker 2: and that's I attribute the fact of my becoming a 356 00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 2: public defender to that conversation. 357 00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 1: Well, I have to say, I remember, I had heard 358 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 1: you tell this story once before, and I've thought about 359 00:24:56,316 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 1: it so many times over the course of working on 360 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 1: this podcast. When I heard the cold hard facts of 361 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:06,516 Speaker 1: the case, two white teenagers get in a car drive 362 00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 1: to Philadelphia, and if the press execution is going to 363 00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:13,516 Speaker 1: be believed, murder this innocent man in point blank range. 364 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:15,996 Speaker 1: The first sight is like, what kind of depravity, what 365 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 1: kind of monsters? Would do something like this, and I think, 366 00:25:19,516 --> 00:25:22,556 Speaker 1: and honestly, it wasn't until I heard you talk about 367 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:27,156 Speaker 1: this story that I even began to think that there 368 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:30,316 Speaker 1: was this other narrative, not that it's any means justified 369 00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:32,396 Speaker 1: or to apologize for it, but that there's this other 370 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:35,516 Speaker 1: narrative that one could actually look at and see some 371 00:25:35,636 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 1: humanity in. 372 00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:40,836 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean from the very first time you 373 00:25:40,996 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 2: told me about the case and you gave me just 374 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:50,676 Speaker 2: those facts of two white teenagers drive Philadelphia kill somebody, 375 00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:58,036 Speaker 2: my mind immediately went to what happened in their life 376 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 2: to have them be in that car, driving to a 377 00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 2: city they don't know, to shoot somebody who they don't know, 378 00:26:06,956 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 2: because aren't born ready to do that. 379 00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:14,756 Speaker 1: I keep thinking back to your point about what if 380 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: it would have been the split verdict, but also there 381 00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:21,116 Speaker 1: was a chance for Craig to express his remorse, and 382 00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:27,196 Speaker 1: whether that might not have made it feel like half 383 00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:30,916 Speaker 1: justice to the family at the time. I want to talk, 384 00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:32,436 Speaker 1: I want to about the Wood family, but I have 385 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:34,276 Speaker 1: one more thing that I want to ask about. This 386 00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:37,716 Speaker 1: is something that I've been thinking of. When they were 387 00:26:37,716 --> 00:26:41,636 Speaker 1: connecting the crime to the victim, they took that list 388 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 1: of the particulars, the five particulars, the race, the nature 389 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:48,236 Speaker 1: of the wound, single shot to head, the thirty eight caliber, 390 00:26:48,676 --> 00:26:52,556 Speaker 1: and they looked over the unsolved murders in Philadelphia at 391 00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:56,436 Speaker 1: the time. A thought that's always nagged me at the 392 00:26:56,476 --> 00:27:00,556 Speaker 1: back of my brain is should they have looked at 393 00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:06,396 Speaker 1: the quote unquote solved murders? And I don't know, but 394 00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:10,516 Speaker 1: you maybe can brite some context because if my sense 395 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:13,636 Speaker 1: is that there have been some wrongful convictions that have 396 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:15,156 Speaker 1: come out of Philadelphia, right. 397 00:27:15,356 --> 00:27:18,836 Speaker 2: For sure, I mean everywhere, but you know, Philadelphia is 398 00:27:18,836 --> 00:27:21,436 Speaker 2: one of the jurisdictions that has people actually who got 399 00:27:21,476 --> 00:27:25,196 Speaker 2: sentenced to death who have been exonerated. Right, So, yes, 400 00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:28,876 Speaker 2: absolutely there have been exonerations in Philadelphia. You know, at 401 00:27:28,916 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 2: such a good point. I'm kind of embarrassed that you 402 00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 2: thought of it and I didn't, because I think that's right. 403 00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 2: Of course, there's no incentive for them to do that 404 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:45,716 Speaker 2: because that kind of case would be, you know, virtually 405 00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,236 Speaker 2: impossible for them to bring because now they are right 406 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:50,596 Speaker 2: they have somebody who got convicted of it. If they 407 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:55,476 Speaker 2: found a case that matched this in all these ways 408 00:27:55,476 --> 00:28:02,276 Speaker 2: that we just described, then that would mean either Craig's 409 00:28:03,756 --> 00:28:06,596 Speaker 2: lying or mistaken and the girlfriends are wrong, and that 410 00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 2: this prosecution shouldn't hold or that the previous one was wrong. 411 00:28:13,196 --> 00:28:16,276 Speaker 2: And but they absolutely if they found that, they would 412 00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:19,516 Speaker 2: not have gone through with a prosecution of Tom. So 413 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:20,836 Speaker 2: that would have been the end of that. 414 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: But I see what your point is that I hadn't 415 00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:25,196 Speaker 1: thought of, which is that there's no incentive to do that, 416 00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:27,116 Speaker 1: because that if you're from if you're looking from the 417 00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:29,916 Speaker 1: law enforce and perspective that's solved, you don't want to 418 00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 1: take anything out of the solved case if you don't 419 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:32,676 Speaker 1: have to write no. 420 00:28:32,916 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 2: I mean when I was back when I was a 421 00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:38,116 Speaker 2: public defender. You know, it's now been eclipsed by you know, 422 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:42,556 Speaker 2: the Wire. But David Simon's first grade television show was 423 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 2: The Homicide. 424 00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:44,316 Speaker 1: I know you're a fan of the show. 425 00:28:44,436 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 2: I love this show so much. I probably brought I 426 00:28:46,756 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 2: guess I've brought it up before. But in homicide they 427 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:56,556 Speaker 2: write the names of the victims, you know, in chalk 428 00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:01,796 Speaker 2: and if you're a homicide investigator and there's you have 429 00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 2: a bunch of names on that list on that chalkboard. 430 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:06,676 Speaker 2: I mean, when you walk in every morning, it's like 431 00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 2: a badge of shame, right, because there's all these unsolved 432 00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:13,636 Speaker 2: names and then they take them off when they solve it, right, 433 00:29:14,156 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 2: they erase them, and you don't want to have any names. 434 00:29:16,756 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 2: So once they're erased, as these cases would have been, right, 435 00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 2: this would be a solved case. Nobody, no investigator, nobody's 436 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:26,916 Speaker 2: looking at it. We'll be right back. 437 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:39,196 Speaker 1: Talk to me about what your reactions were, thoughts were. 438 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 1: Once you've had a chance to spend some time with 439 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:45,116 Speaker 1: the Wood family around's two brothers and his niece. 440 00:29:46,036 --> 00:29:52,116 Speaker 2: In some ways, that was my favorite part of the story. 441 00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 2: What I found so distinctive about the story the way 442 00:29:57,956 --> 00:30:02,396 Speaker 2: you told it was the role that the Wood family 443 00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:06,956 Speaker 2: played in the narrative and their fullness and their humanity, 444 00:30:07,196 --> 00:30:09,876 Speaker 2: and the way that just came f forward, like the 445 00:30:10,036 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 2: richness of who they were as a family. They're both 446 00:30:13,876 --> 00:30:16,916 Speaker 2: individual stories and then they're collective, you know, hearing them 447 00:30:16,956 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 2: together and the laughter. I would dream of living in 448 00:30:24,156 --> 00:30:28,396 Speaker 2: a world where I could tell you, well, you need 449 00:30:28,396 --> 00:30:30,756 Speaker 2: to cut that, because we've just like heard this story 450 00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 2: over and over and over again. But black families are 451 00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 2: often not portrayed in the light in which you portrayed 452 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:44,796 Speaker 2: the Wood family, and in particular, Black families that have 453 00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:48,636 Speaker 2: been victimized, like victimized by crime or victimized by the 454 00:30:49,196 --> 00:30:53,636 Speaker 2: criminal justice system often can be kind of rendered in 455 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:56,836 Speaker 2: a very kind of flat way, a very sort of 456 00:30:56,876 --> 00:31:00,396 Speaker 2: a set of stereotypes. It's like, oh, we know, we 457 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:02,676 Speaker 2: know what this story is going to be. They fit 458 00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 2: into a stock set of characters. And what I really 459 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:11,116 Speaker 2: loved about the family is the way they just didn't 460 00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:16,876 Speaker 2: the way they were they were human. And again you 461 00:31:16,996 --> 00:31:19,036 Speaker 2: might be like, well, why is that such a big deal, 462 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:21,596 Speaker 2: But my answer is it is such a big deal. 463 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:24,916 Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, I think that Black 464 00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:29,436 Speaker 2: listeners especially will pick that up. You know, we'll we'll, 465 00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 2: we'll hear that family, the way they interact, the way 466 00:31:33,636 --> 00:31:36,636 Speaker 2: they love each other, the way they love Aroan and 467 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:41,836 Speaker 2: are going to be are going to be lifted up 468 00:31:41,996 --> 00:31:45,036 Speaker 2: by it on top of everything else that you know, 469 00:31:45,076 --> 00:31:46,356 Speaker 2: the podcast is all about. 470 00:31:47,396 --> 00:31:52,036 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that. And I have to be honest, 471 00:31:53,196 --> 00:31:57,116 Speaker 1: I didn't do much. Sometimes as an interview you have 472 00:31:57,196 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 1: to work really hard to draw out I didn't have 473 00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:03,276 Speaker 1: to do that. They just had this warmth, like we 474 00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:09,076 Speaker 1: set up in this room and the laughter was really 475 00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 1: it was right off the bat, we were joking about football. 476 00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:16,636 Speaker 1: They were just lovely, warm people, and you know there's 477 00:32:16,676 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 1: some hard stuff in there, like Tyrone the younger brother, 478 00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:24,196 Speaker 1: talking about just matter of factly that after his brother's 479 00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:30,716 Speaker 1: death he fell into alcoholism and talking, you know, but 480 00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:32,956 Speaker 1: talking about it in a way that was very like honest, 481 00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: and then how we kind of pulled himself out of that. 482 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 1: You know, Michael the middle brother, when we were talking 483 00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:42,196 Speaker 1: about the restorative justice, I was thinking about him because 484 00:32:43,436 --> 00:32:45,716 Speaker 1: you know, as you probably recall, he had this moment 485 00:32:45,756 --> 00:32:48,276 Speaker 1: where he had a relative come to him at the 486 00:32:48,316 --> 00:32:50,996 Speaker 1: funeral and say, you must forgive the man that did 487 00:32:50,996 --> 00:32:54,076 Speaker 1: this to your brother. And Michael and I were talking 488 00:32:54,076 --> 00:32:56,596 Speaker 1: about this, like how do you do that? Initially at 489 00:32:56,676 --> 00:32:58,316 Speaker 1: least when you have no idea, Like how do you 490 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 1: forgive you know, a blank face? And then I just 491 00:33:04,516 --> 00:33:08,436 Speaker 1: have to say it was like deeply moving to me 492 00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:12,396 Speaker 1: when he got to the trial and he looked at 493 00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 1: Tom Guybison and he said he felt certain that this 494 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:17,956 Speaker 1: was the man that killed his brother, and he said 495 00:33:17,716 --> 00:33:23,796 Speaker 1: I had forgiven him. Yeah, James, this has been great. 496 00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 1: I really I really appreciate you sharing this experience with 497 00:33:28,236 --> 00:33:31,316 Speaker 1: me and giving me your insights, and yeah, it means a. 498 00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:34,516 Speaker 2: Lot due you didn't ask me your your your money 499 00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:36,036 Speaker 2: question all. 500 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:37,756 Speaker 1: I got to the hail Mary. 501 00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:40,356 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the hail Mary. I had something I 502 00:33:40,396 --> 00:33:41,756 Speaker 2: wanted to say. I was going to bring it up. 503 00:33:41,796 --> 00:33:44,356 Speaker 1: Hey, it's it's fourth down. The Bills are on their 504 00:33:44,396 --> 00:33:47,076 Speaker 1: own five yard line. What is a question that I 505 00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:48,756 Speaker 1: didn't ask that I should have asked. 506 00:33:49,156 --> 00:33:53,596 Speaker 2: I wanted to just mention something that I mentioned. I 507 00:33:53,596 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 2: think it was the first thing that I said in 508 00:33:56,156 --> 00:33:59,076 Speaker 2: our first conversation, or it was very very early on 509 00:33:59,796 --> 00:34:02,716 Speaker 2: about why I thought this story was so important and 510 00:34:02,996 --> 00:34:05,196 Speaker 2: why I was drawn to it from the beginning. Yeah, 511 00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:12,516 Speaker 2: and it's that there is such a long history of 512 00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:17,276 Speaker 2: kind of under enforcement and under protection in black communities. 513 00:34:17,436 --> 00:34:20,436 Speaker 2: And so when we think about discrimination in the criminal 514 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:22,956 Speaker 2: justice system today, as we sit here now in twenty 515 00:34:22,996 --> 00:34:27,116 Speaker 2: twenty four, right, our minds are very drawn to the 516 00:34:27,196 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 2: idea of over policing and over punishment and over prosecution, right, 517 00:34:31,676 --> 00:34:39,596 Speaker 2: and stopping frisk, and excessive sentences and unfair imposition of 518 00:34:39,596 --> 00:34:43,236 Speaker 2: the death penalty. Right. But there's a whole nother part 519 00:34:43,276 --> 00:34:46,396 Speaker 2: of the story of discrimination in the system, which is 520 00:34:46,596 --> 00:34:52,476 Speaker 2: crimes against black victims not being investigated and not being prosecuted, 521 00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:56,196 Speaker 2: not being taken seriously by society. So the first time 522 00:34:56,276 --> 00:34:58,636 Speaker 2: you told me about this case and you said you 523 00:34:58,676 --> 00:34:59,916 Speaker 2: know that it was going to be there was a 524 00:34:59,956 --> 00:35:03,796 Speaker 2: black man that was shot in Philadelphia and perpetrators are 525 00:35:03,836 --> 00:35:07,276 Speaker 2: not brought to justice, I thought, oh, good, this is 526 00:35:07,676 --> 00:35:11,236 Speaker 2: it is very important to have to lift up stories 527 00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:14,076 Speaker 2: like this as well. And that's the last thing that 528 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:17,476 Speaker 2: I want to say, is that And this is in 529 00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:19,676 Speaker 2: some ways connected back to what I was telling you 530 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:21,876 Speaker 2: when I couldn't decide if I was going to be 531 00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:24,236 Speaker 2: the prosecutor for hate crimes or if I was going 532 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:27,276 Speaker 2: to be a public defender. In my mind, they are 533 00:35:27,276 --> 00:35:29,796 Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin, right, And so in 534 00:35:29,876 --> 00:35:34,476 Speaker 2: my mind, it really is the fact that what they 535 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:38,636 Speaker 2: have in common is that we are not taking black 536 00:35:38,916 --> 00:35:42,236 Speaker 2: life seriously enough. And so what that means is we 537 00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:45,116 Speaker 2: don't take it seriously enough to protect it in the 538 00:35:45,116 --> 00:35:48,836 Speaker 2: first instance, and then if somebody is put on trial 539 00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:52,476 Speaker 2: or if somebody is facing sentencing, we don't see that 540 00:35:52,596 --> 00:35:56,436 Speaker 2: life as capable of redemption. And so in both cases 541 00:35:56,516 --> 00:36:00,196 Speaker 2: it leads to again on the one hand, either under 542 00:36:00,196 --> 00:36:04,716 Speaker 2: protection or on the other hand over punishment, and I 543 00:36:04,756 --> 00:36:08,716 Speaker 2: think that this story that you're telling is a really 544 00:36:08,756 --> 00:36:14,276 Speaker 2: important reminder for listeners that that part of the unfairness 545 00:36:14,276 --> 00:36:29,236 Speaker 2: and the discrimination in the system remains. 546 00:36:32,156 --> 00:36:36,276 Speaker 1: James Foreman Jr. Is the Skelly Right Professor of Law 547 00:36:36,636 --> 00:36:39,276 Speaker 1: at the l Law School. I recommend you check out 548 00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:42,156 Speaker 1: his book, Locking Up Our Own and his next book 549 00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:46,716 Speaker 1: will be out on July ninth. It's called Dismantling Mass Incarceration, 550 00:36:47,436 --> 00:36:50,836 Speaker 1: a Handbook for Change. Thank you to the yl Poor 551 00:36:50,916 --> 00:36:54,476 Speaker 1: Vous Center for Teaching and Learning, where we recorded this conversation. 552 00:36:55,916 --> 00:36:59,476 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid. Our editor 553 00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:03,796 Speaker 1: is Karen Chakerji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Our 554 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:07,316 Speaker 1: show art was designed by Sean Carney. Original scoring in 555 00:37:07,356 --> 00:37:12,356 Speaker 1: our theme was composed by the This episode was mastered 556 00:37:12,396 --> 00:37:16,956 Speaker 1: by Sarah Bruguer. Special thanks to Sarah Nix and Greta Cone. 557 00:37:17,556 --> 00:37:18,436 Speaker 1: I'm Jake Calpern