WEBVTT - Transitions 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.239 Hey, everybody on Brooke Burke, and you might be wondering 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:07.120 why you're hearing my voice and not the usual duo. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.119 I'm really happy to be joining you and I don't know, 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.640 I guess we just addressed the elephant in the room, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.760 you know, right off the top. I have been following, 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.079 you know, the latest news with with Janna and Michael 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.680 and um. You know, as a woman, I want to 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.000 say that I have been through two very public divorces. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.840 It is hard, um, and I'm here just filling in 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.240 and uh, you know, right now, I feel like a pause, 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.240 a moment that they're giving themselves for whatever reason that 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.360 might not be our business yet um is real and 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.360 valid and super duper important. So I'm just here to 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.080 dish and chat. And we have an amazing guest joining 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:51.239 us today, which I'm very grateful for, Hillary Goldscher, And 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:57.280 she's a clinical psychologist. She specializes in couples and relationship therapy. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.160 So um, she's going to be our expert. I've so 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:02.720 many things to ask her, and it's so nice to 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.360 have someone like her to bounce things off of because 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.520 I'm not an expert. I've been through this, but I'm 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.520 still learning and I also want to just reiterate that 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.320 these are all possibilities, Like, no one knows what somebody 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.360 else is going through, and it's really easy for all 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.440 of us to assume and and um, you know, to 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.360 talk about Janet Mike, but honestly, uh, nobody has any 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.480 idea of what goes on in the privacy of people's home. 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.280 So give them grace. And I'm really happy that Hillary 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.240 is here because I just want to keep it real 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:32.960 and hopefully we can all learn and um and grow 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.759 a little bit. Today. Well, I'm here too, it's Mark 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.959 and Um. I was stunned, of course when I heard 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.160 the news. And people will say, how, how can you 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.240 be stunned? It's been years of a podcast with these 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:50.000 two arguing, bickering, struggling through their relationship. But I really 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.960 thought they had turned a corner. I really thought that um, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:59.560 Michael had reached a point in his therapy that he 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.600 was asked what he's being said to have done in 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.400 the press. And I don't know what he's done, and 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.040 I don't know. I don't want to assume anything, but 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.359 there's a lot out there about infidelity on his part. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.000 I don't know if that's happened again or not, but 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.280 if it has happened again, that's what I'm completely shocked about. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.359 Just knowing him over the past few years, I really 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.760 felt he wanted desperately to put that part of his 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.200 life behind him. Yeah, you know, it's yeah, I can't, 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.360 you know, one of those cheesy quotes, But I swear 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:31.119 it's so true that everybody else's opinion is really none 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.600 of our business. I mean, it's sort of like the mystery, 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:40.440 you know, having gone through two marriages, for children, two divorces, um, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.040 you know, sometimes we just don't get to be who 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.560 we hope to be in a relationship. And one of 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.840 the turning points for me um in my most recent 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.040 divorce to David, and I feel really comfortable today saying 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:55.720 that I had a chance to marry the love of 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.919 my life, like we had a mad love affair, connects 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.160 and chemistry, two beautiful children, like conceived from love and 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.200 raised in that same vein. And you know, it was 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:12.080 devastating to feel in moments that I failed. And my 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.720 turning point was when I realized that I wasn't giving 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:17.840 up and I didn't fail. It was just time to 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.679 let go, and it was time to sort of meet 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:26.560 my relationship that was hard with um, honesty and a 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.800 bit of a surrender, if that makes sense. And um, 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.200 you know, I have a podcast called Intimate Knowledge, and 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.240 we sort of broke it down when I was very 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.120 raw and vulnerable. And you know, sometimes those are the 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:44.560 greatest times to bring light to this challenge because I 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.320 struggled in the letting go of the fairy tale that 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.320 I wanted and letting go of who we were trying 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.000 to be in Yeah, therapy and yeah kids and all 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.680 this stuff worth fighting for and the moment in time 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.600 and by the way, we worked on it for years 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:07.400 before we had our our our, our transition into change. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.120 And you know that's the way everybody calls it something 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.800 fabulous publicly, right, I mean you remember all the criticism, 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:18.520 you know, with so many people in the press. Um, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:20.440 But for me, it was like it was time for 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.359 change and I had to own that and that was 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.800 freaking hard. You know. I was reading, um, you know, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.920 Janna's post last week and um, it was right before 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.960 I agreed to to co host today and to come 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.119 in and fill in, and you know, as a woman, 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.400 I was like, girl, absolutely take your time, take your moment, 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.880 and it deserves no explanation, but I also read it 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.560 and it brought me back to that time in my 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.920 life several years ago when I was like, Okay, I've 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.320 shared my life publicly with everyone. I've opened everything up, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.279 I've committed to be honest, and now do I really 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.279 have to talk about it? What do I say? What 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.640 do I not say? How do I protict my family? 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.480 Is it time right now? What does that look like? 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.400 Is it cheesy to do it? And it's like, what 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.159 the hell do you say? What's my like one paragraph statement? 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:15.840 And reading her post that I thought was so beautifully put, um, honest, painful, vulnerable, 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.919 all the things that it that it um needed to 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.840 be for her, and I just I really feel for 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.760 for the you know, the family, the couple, and um, 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.360 there's no right or wrong way to do it right, 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.479 there's no right or wrong way to stay married, there's 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.479 no right or wrong way to separate, and you know, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.000 I just I hope that everybody you know listening gives 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.839 them grace and the support publicly is so amazing. And 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.960 then there's also like this desperate need I think is 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.279 a public person for a moment of privacy and to 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.400 have freedom to become unraveled and to be upset and 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:52.520 to feel like crawling into a hole or a ball 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.000 or whatever you need to do. Is it human being? 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:56.880 It's not just a woman to woman, it's the whole family. 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:03.040 So I I just to say that, and um, you know, 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.200 we can guess all we want, right And and it's hard, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.520 it's really really hard, and anyone's going through well, you're 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.120 mentioning that element is not something I can relate to. 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.680 A lot of of people get divorced. They tell their 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:17.359 family and friends and it sucks and it's hard. But 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.520 the fact that you and Jana have to make a 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.679 public announcement to the world and you have to craft 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.600 a statement and all that stuff, that's got to be 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.279 a whole other added level of stress and headache. Yeah, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:30.679 and even when you're bleeding, you know, and there's gunfire 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.400 going off in your head and you don't really even 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.279 know what to say and you're just trying to survive it. Um, 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.000 And so many people do it and try to be 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.920 super strong. And you know, as a woman, I've found 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.680 it to be extremely valuable to give yourself that room 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.840 to feel whatever you need to feel, anger, resenting, pain, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.400 letting go joy, whatever it is. Um. From the outside 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.520 looking in, nobody really knows what two people are going 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.640 through and why and when when the right time is UM. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.120 But it's hard. That transition is really really hard. So 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:05.600 fortunately we have Hillary joining us today. She's going to 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.880 give us some professional insight. And I just want to 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.200 say quickly that all the stuff that we're talking about today, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.600 these are just possibilities. And I want to like take 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.400 ownership in that that people get it right, they get 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.440 it wrong, and people that are going through similar things 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:22.920 that I've been through, that jan is going through, that 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.320 her family is going through, these are just possibilities to 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:30.440 consider um and rolling through that change. So um, yeah, 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.880 let's let's get her in here. Hey, how you doing. Hi, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.800 Thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me. We're happy 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.720 that you're here and trying to do this very delicate 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.760 dance of talking about life, love, divorce, change, transition, curious 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.320 what you might call it, doctor, all of that right? 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.840 For sure, like a grief filled episode of time. For sure, 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.080 that's the biggest word that comes to my mind, you know, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:02.680 with those kind of changes, in that kind of loss. Absolutely, 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.400 I mean to tell everybody that's listening just a little 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.680 bit about you, what you do, what your specialty is. 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.040 I'm happy that you are. Um, you know, the queen 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.080 of couples in relationship therapy, which is awesome because everybody 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.720 needs as much advice in that area. Um, you know, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.080 and let's let's just see if we can give them 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.760 some good positive takeaways. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:28.120 Dr Hillary Culture. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and normally 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.680 at this point, I say, in Beverly Hills, but now 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.040 operating out of my home office in another location in 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.760 Gae right, but my specialties include of course couples and 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.040 parenting as well as trauma and depression and anxiety. So 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.920 this is right at my alley and um, yeah, so 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.320 glad we're able to have this discussion in such like 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.559 a timely, real life moment, even though it's so tricky, 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:52.680 and you know it is tricky and I've been through 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.040 it twice. We were just talking about that a little 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.480 bit and just you know, honesty, vulnerability, I think, freedom 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:00.680 for couples to do whatever you need to do in 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.040 this process. And you know, the tricky part two is 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.559 being public and you know, even today having a conversation 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.719 you know, without them about them. Um. You know, I 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.400 kind of want to keep it personal and and keep 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.960 it relevant for other people who are struggling as well, 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.480 because you know, two of my divorces were completely different. Um, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.520 both traumatic, both super painful. I have four children too, 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:31.280 and too um. You know, there's moments of feeling like 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:36.040 you failed. There's moments of allowing yourself freedom to change 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.400 and grow, and there's just like a whole rainbow of emotions. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.560 And then publicly and trying to have game face on 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.240 as a woman and trying to be a mom and 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.480 showing up and going to work and finding the right 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.560 narrative to tell people who care about you. Um, Like 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:57.480 that's a whole another level of coping with separation, divorce. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.720 I mean, are we using the d work today? I 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.840 mean that seems like even like there's baby steps right 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.240 to getting to that place, so many things to unpack it. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:09.920 You made me think of two really important things, which 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:14.040 is like just validating the mess of it, Validating how 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.760 hard this is, validating how grief filled it is, how 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.480 anxiety provoking it is, how depressing it is, how upsetting 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.680 it is, whether you're in the public eye or not. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.960 And I think we all could agree that having this 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.600 kind of split in the public eye as a whole 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.800 other component, but just how difficult it is in validating 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.120 that and making it normal even though this experience is 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.760 sort of awful and abnormal in a certain way, anyone 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.120 going through this knows that you visit these stages of 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.760 upset and these stages of devastation and letting that sort 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.400 of be okay. I think it's a really important message. 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.280 No one is going to feel okay in the situation 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.679 that Um JENNI finds herself in, or in a situation 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:58.560 of any breakup, especially with kids. Yeah. Sure. And you 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.679 also reminded me of something that I wanted to talk 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.280 about as I was thinking about getting together with you today, 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:07.439 which is that I feel like every marriage or partnership, 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:11.080 if it ends, has its own sort of afterlife, has 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.400 its own specific grief filled story and has its own 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.280 journey of recovery. They're both different, almost build like a 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.440 new relationship with the partner that you're splitting with, even 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.559 if it's just in your mind, um, dealing with resentment, 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.960 dealing with anger, dealing with the feeling of loss, dealing 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.520 with co parenting, if that's on a table on the table, 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.559 it's like a whole new relationship with that person has 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.080 to be formed while you grieve the loss of the 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:42.559 relationship you thought you had. Yes, you made me think 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.079 of something in my first divorce. Um, both of them 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.600 were really necessary. So I'm just going to speak about 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:54.000 myself because that feels more appropriate. Um. And I remember 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.280 someone giving me a book called a Working Divorce. I 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.160 think that was the title. We should look it up. 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.440 And it was really instrumental because my goal was to 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:07.240 have a better relationship as exs than we had married, 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.520 which is not easy, and it's not easy with children, 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.560 and it's not easy depending on your partner's personality. Like 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.360 my ultimate goal in life and was sort of to 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:21.520 take the high road. Okay, lucky him, you know what 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.960 I mean. And we're not always met, you know, with 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:29.679 with with that, you know, same type of intention, but 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:34.800 figuring out ways to shift into a new way of communicating, 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:40.760 new boundaries, new respect even. Um. So there were there 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.160 were a lot of things that I did, obviously therapy, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.480 but there were some really instrumental books that I read 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.800 as well that helped me get really clear kind of 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.440 on the story in my mind. Um, you know, there's 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.680 always several parts to everything in the truth lies in 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.040 the middle, and there's someone else's evaluation whatever. And I 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:56.760 think when you're in trauma, and I'd love to hear 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.120 your your ear sense on this. When you're in trauma 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.960 where you're going through a painful shift in your life, 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.760 sometimes we don't really see it for what it is. Um, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.800 you know, and my and my second divorce it was 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.720 even harder because um, we had a very deep love. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.600 I was really fighting for the success of that love 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.240 because I had already been divorced once and I already 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.880 felt unsuccessful in marriage. I try not to use the 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.640 word failure anymore. I already felt like I broke two 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.360 little girl's hearts, and I was like, I'll be damned 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.640 if I'm going to do that again. So I was 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.680 fighting the good fight for myself, from my children, from 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.000 my husband, from my own commitment to myself and my 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.360 own sort of commitment to like, I'm a big girl 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.080 now and I should know better, and I already this 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.679 up once, and I am going to fight for this 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.360 for all the right reasons and all the reasons worth 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:55.880 fighting for. And there was it was the time when 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.440 sort of together we realized that we weren't celebrating each 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.440 other anymore, and we weren't being great examples for our 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:09.280 little children, and we weren't loving each other the way 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.480 that we both hoped and wanted and deserved to be loved. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:17.920 And we kind of leaned into that decision together. Um, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:19.760 but you made me, made me think of something, and 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.040 I want to just bring a very real nous to this. 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.280 There were times, even though what I'm saying sounds really 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.080 beautiful and mature, when we hated each other where it 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.160 was freaking toxic on the sports field, I mean, like 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.640 painful to show up from my son at soccer, And 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.960 there were times when we cried in each other's arms. 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.280 There were times where we were able to connect that 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.240 it gives me goose bumps and makes me emotional, but 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.120 times where I needed him to let go. I kind 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.040 of needed to meet him and love to let go 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.360 and transition, and times when I couldn't stand the sight 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.160 or smell of him or his energy. So you go 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.520 through all kinds of things and then everybody gives you 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.080 advice and everybody tells you how to do it, And 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.000 I just think people need to give themselves grace to 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.240 feel whatever the hell they're feeling when they're feeling it. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:07.840 Like you said, there's no appropriate timeline and you've got 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:12.280 to roll through that as a human being without expectations, 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.080 like your own journey of healing. Do you agree with that? Like, yes, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.920 I'm so glad you exposed both sides, right, because those 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.720 things can coexist. They do exist, right. There can be 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.160 these moments of like peace and connection and understanding and 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.360 like hope for the future, and then these moments of 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:36.480 total trauma, total devastation, total toxic toxicity, and most people 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.800 and divorces experience both and saying it out loud is 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.160 going to be healing for people listening. That's normal if 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.000 you're visiting both sides. And I couldn't say it before 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:50.360 because I didn't understand it before. I didn't understand or 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.640 have faith that it was going to be okay when 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.320 I was in it. When you're in it, you can't 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.200 You usually can't see it, and I had to that 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:03.200 were so different. One was awful, the other one was 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:08.240 awful too. But the learning lessons and possibilities and um, 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.520 the things I did wrong the first time, I think 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.840 really helped me to step up the second time. And 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.880 I was bleeding inside like heart broken, like there's no 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:23.120 shame to my vulnerability, and that I wanted to stay married. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.800 I had like a deep love and maybe I wasn't 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.320 great at it. Recognizing that the marriage just kind of 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:36.160 sucked was heartbreaking. Um, recognizing my faults, recognizing him faults, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.160 but just having that sort of come to Jesus moment 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.160 where I was like, it's time now, like I did 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.960 everything we like, it's time, and getting to that point 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.640 of letting go and saying like it's time for us 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:52.520 to get a divorce, like like like you could die, 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.280 like you feel like you're going to die, Like you 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.600 can't breathe, like you physically can't breathe. Those two notes 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.440 are almost entire honerable. Right. The truth of like loving 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.840 someone so deeply and at the very same time knowing 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.119 that it's unsafe or unhealthy to stay together, it's almost otherworldly. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.959 The pain that that creates in two people, right, and 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:18.000 coming to that decision, devastating decision that you can't be 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.439 together and be safe and healthy is, as you alluded to, 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:27.679 is traumatic and traumatic traumatic, and so a key how 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:29.640 about like how could we not be who we thought 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.040 we were? Like when you look at someone and go, 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.600 You're not who I thought you were. But maybe they are, 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.560 and maybe I thought you were someone else, or maybe 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:44.240 this relationship that we've been fighting for and holding onto 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.160 it's never gonna be what I dreamed it would be. 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.600 I think that was the hardest part, was the real 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:56.280 the reality of it is what it is like I 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:01.480 am looking like okay, and I think I've learned. I 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.800 think I've learned this. This This is a hard conversation everybody, 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:05.800 because I'm talking to a professional. Sometimes we're in our 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.280 head and we think we know what we know and 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.199 we don't know about what we don't know. Um, the 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:18.159 reality of accepting the facts, like for example, I'll give 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.639 you an example. I don't think I've ever talked about this, 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.359 but whatever, we all grow up. We all grow up 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.240 from our reality. I remember when when I went to 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.080 New York and I came home and he had moved out, 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:30.520 and yet he kept talking about how he wanted to 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.680 work on it and you didn't want to divorce, and 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:34.159 and I could have taken then in and be like, 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.199 he really doesn't want to divorce me, do it? You 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.040 moved out? Fact be told I went to New York, 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.480 I came home you packed up and you moved out. 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:49.359 I had to learn how to just take facts for reality, 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.960 and that's really hard to do, Like when you're in 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.920 your roller coaster of emotions in pain, right, like, yes, 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.800 you're talking, someone's doing wrong. Thing was like, just the 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.320 facts are that we and we look we may were 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.320 women like we make excuses, we put our war pain on. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.040 We're super brave. We'll fight the fight. We can take it. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.720 We can take a lot. Men to mento like this 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.920 isn't anybody's like fault. We don't. You know, everybody has 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.760 their role in it. But it's hard to get real, right, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.359 I think you're talking about and this word was coming 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.600 up as you were describing your sort of personal stories, 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.920 like disorientation. Right, you're looking through one lens for so long, 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.359 this lens of you and him and seeing yourself a 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.879 certain way, seeing him a certain way, seeing your life 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.760 a certain way, and it's totally disorienting when it starts 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.760 to crumble. And so we may fill in the blanks 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.399 another way, right, that doesn't include the truth, That doesn't 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.760 include the facts. We can't take them in. We can't 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.159 absorb it because it's too disorienting, it's too traumatic and again, 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.240 even though in retrospect we might beat ourselves up or 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:56.920 think like how could I have missed that? Or how 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:58.960 could I have tolerated it? But I don't think those 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.680 are the right questions to ask. The sort of the 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.639 way to look at it is is your depth of love, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.800 your willingness to sort of persevere, or your ability to 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.320 have faith in people, and then your ability to also 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.360 recognize a truth when your heart and soul and mind 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.879 are ready for it, right, and that happens for different 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.000 people at different times, And circling back to something we 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:26.360 said at the beginning, there's no manual, there's no judgment 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.320 that should be ascribed to when that happens for people. 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.280 It happens at different times for different reasons, based on 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.480 the individuals involved, and we want to honor that journey 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.000 for someone, not judge it or success it or try 0:20:39.040 --> 0:21:05.520 to impram it. I am all in that I am 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.840 all in with Scott Patterson and I Hurt Radio podcast. 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.919 This is Scott Patterson, you know me as Luke on 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.720 the show Gilmore Girls, and I have a podcast called 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.120 I Am All In. So you know, here's the thing 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.680 about the podcast is, I've never ever, ever seen only 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.560 seen one movie, and I've only seen the pilot, so 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.760 a hundred fifty three episodes and three movies I have 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.000 not seen. And I know you guys have been binge 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.080 watching it through the COVID and you know for twenty 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.520 one years, and the generations of families and mothers and daughters, 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:43.200 and let's watch it together, guys. You know, we'll share stories. 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.639 We'll share the memories. I've got a million stories to tell, 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:51.520 especially about Sean Gunn and my loventabilia and a lot 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.240 of other people too. And guess what. You can pull 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.040 out your cell phones and use them during the podcast. 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.320 I guess how am I gonna know you come into 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.320 the diner into that. That's a different story. Listen to 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.480 I Am all In on the I Heart Radio app, 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:11.199 on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey everybody, 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.520 and don't forget follow us on Instagram at I Am 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.600 all In podcast and email us at Gilmore at I 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.000 heart radio dot com. Oh you gil More fans. If 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:24.000 you're looking for the best cup of coffee in the world, 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.960 go to my website for my company scott ep dot com, 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.320 s c O T t y P dot com, scotty 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:45.199 P dot Com Grade one specialty coffee. Would you agree 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:50.119 that we're in denial. It's sort of a coping mechanism sometimes, 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:52.879 or there's an acceptance to just not rock the boat. 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:57.960