WEBVTT - Redistributing Power in the Attorney Client Relationship 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:09.000 Allo Podcast Enjoys. It's me James today and I am 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:14.560 joined again by Mo. They are an educator, attorney, abolitionist, 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.520 and they serve overlapping communities of activists, queer people, and prisoners. 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:22.000 And we've heard from them before. We have from them 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:24.560 about June eleventh, but today we're talking about something a 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:28.120 little different. We're talking about redistributing power in the attorney 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:29.160 client relationship. 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.400 How are you I'm doing okay. How are you, James? 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:40.840 I'm existing, I'm fine, I'm thriving. So, yeah, you wanted 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.239 to talk today, he reached out to talk about this. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.400 I think it's a really interesting topic and it's one 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.839 that like I've become increasingly more aware of in my 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:55.680 coverage of some sort of different stuff that's various prosecutions, 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.720 I guess in the US, and so I was very 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.400 interested in this. Can you pups like start out by 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:05.600 explaining what it is exactly that you want you wanted 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.120 to discuss within the attorney client relationship. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:13.560 Yeah, sure, I wanted to talk about building a trusting 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.120 relationship with your attorney where you feel heard and respected 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.880 and understand what you have a right to expect from 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:27.040 your attorney and feel empowered to push for it. And 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.920 this actually I want to address this both from the 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:36.440 side of the client, particularly for people who are accused 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.280 of criminal offenses, and I also want to speak a 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.000 little bit to the people who may be representing folks 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.680 who are accused of criminal offenses. For people accused of 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.000 criminal offenses, I want to make sure that anyone in 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.800 that position really understands what you have a right to 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.200 expect from that relationship and to feel really confident asking 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.480 for it. For people who are presenting individuals who are 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.720 politically radical or people who are facing politically motivated prosecutions, 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.840 I want those attorneys to feel safe and ethically empowered 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.320 to practice criminal defense in a way that honors the 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:21.640 goals of clients who may define their legal interests not 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:27.639 with respect to only their own personal liability, but with 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:33.440 respect to a larger set of principles or a larger community. Yeah. 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.240 I think, yeah, that's a very it's a good distinction 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.880 to draw, and I think a good thing for people 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.160 to be thinking about. So why is this sort of 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.320 a topic that's important right now? 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.000 Well, so, I certainly don't want to say that participating 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.200 in protests or in social movements is dangerous, or that 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.160 it's even more dangerous than it has been in the past. 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:03.520 But I am earned that we might be seeing some 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:08.040 arrests and charges that are a little more unhinged than 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.240 we've seen in a while. So this isn't new, but 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.840 it may be new to a newer generation of activists. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.040 And I think some of the community knowledge that was 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:23.559 cultivated and held twenty or thirty years ago maybe outdated, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.359 or it might be inaccessible to folks who weren't involved 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.840 back then, or maybe who weren't involved in things that 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.920 were like subject to this level of state repression twenty 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:38.160 or thirty years ago. So that includes activists, but it 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.040 also includes even very experienced criminal defense attorneys who maybe 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.680 haven't interacted with these kinds of prosecutions, you know, for 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.840 whatever reason, because they were doing a different area of practice, 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:55.800 maybe because this was happening to the people they were 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:02.040 representing in the geographic area where they practice, or like 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.000 it wasn't happening at the time that they were practicing. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.880 So I think that people on both sides of the 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.880 attorney client relationship could benefit from considering that there are 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.960 some maybe important and time tested methods of working to 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.400 mount a collaborative defense in the context of a politically 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:22.479 motivated prosecution. 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.960 Yeah, I think that's just to kind of piggyback off 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.600 what you said. I think it's incredibly valuable. Often, like 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.440 if you've been part of social movements, protest movements, what 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.360 if you want to call it, like for a long time. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.560 Often we do have to learn things like the institutional 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.919 memory of movements can be quite short. And a lot 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:48.200 of people have come to the protest movement now who 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.560 were not, like in my own case, like involved in 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.279 sort of the campaign against neoliberal globalization in the early 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.320 two thousands, where we screwed up a lot and learned 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.880 a lot, and some us are still around, and some 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.480 of us are not, sadly yet because part of this 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:10.200 grew ups that that happened, And like a lot of people, understandably, 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.200 right have been radicalized by having their bodily autonomy attacked, 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.479 by seeing the cops continue to murder people after we 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:17.960 all got in the streets and got shot with rubb 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.880 bullets to ask them to stop murdering people. Like all 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.400 these things that have understandably made people realize that the 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.880 institutional the institutions haven't really responded to their demands for 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.599 basic human decency, and so yeah, they might find themselves 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.840 out in the streets and government doesn't generally yield power willingly, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.080 and certainly government right now is doing everything to kind 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.640 of take what little liberty and autonomy folks have and 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:50.400 slice into that. So it's very reasonable to consider these things. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:55.520 So if in this attorney client relationship, what would be 0:05:55.640 --> 0:06:02.440 some areas of friction or of maybe I'm phrasing that wrong, 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.080 but like places where people might want to advocate for 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.719 themselves in order to get an outcome that they desire. 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:15.120 Right well, so I'll certainly get more into the specifics, 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.400 but I guess, you know, I want to talk about 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:26.159 this because I am seeing disconnects between people in these relationships, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.320 and just from where I sit, I feel like I 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:35.680 can see what's going wrong, and I think that there 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:40.440 are some straightforward solutions, and I think that having compassion 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.480 each party having compassion for the other can be really 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.040 useful here. So I think like one thing that's happening 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.520 is that attorneys are very much educated to be confident 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:57.320 unto the point of arrogance, and clients often either don't 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.839 feel authorized to push back on their attorne. These ideas 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.960 or they do an attorneys to then just maybe steamroll them. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:12.400 And this is not entirely because attorneys are assholes. I 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.119 think it is because criminal defense attorneys are very often 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:20.600 taught to minimize their client's' legal liability by any means necessary, well, 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:25.520 by any lawful means, I guess that's what I should say. 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.240 So for criminal defense attorneys who do not primarily work 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.560 with movement aligned clients, this often means negotiating deals with 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:39.160 the prosecution that involve cooperating with the state's investigation, handing 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:44.240 over information on your confederates, putting the client in an 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:49.120 isolated or adversarial position with their co defendants or co arrestees, 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.120 or doing things that require a person to renounce or 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.800 disparage the people or the communities that they've been involved 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:01.320 with that they come from. And I think it's true 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.800 that using these kinds of tactics to minimize your own 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.720 legal risk is very often what people charged with criminal 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:14.840 offenses want. But that sort of approach is often at 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:20.000 odds with movement values, and it's often totally inconsistent with 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:25.800 what activists want. Activists want when they are facing charges, So, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:32.400 you know, trying to minimize legal consequences is you know, 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.679 certainly always a part of our job, and it's often 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.800 a totally valid thing for lawyers to be doing. But 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:43.319 the idea that an attorney's job is solely to mitigate 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:49.800 legal fallout is not actually entirely accurate. What lawyers are 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.240 supposed to do is work with the client to help 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:56.559 the client articulate their goals, and then the attorney should 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.560 use their expertise and their experience to help the client 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.920 lawfully pursue those goals. And that's what attorneys are supposed 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.280 to do in every case. But I think it often 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:14.199 becomes most salient when the client's goals are less focused 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.640 on minimizing legal consequences and more focused on, for example, 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.840 highlighting movement messages or acting in solidarity with other people 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:27.000 who are facing similar charges. So, you know, again, I'm 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.439 talking about this right now in the context of explicitly 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.880 politically motivated prosecution, but frankly, the goals of the client 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:36.480 have to lead in all cases. 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.160 Yeah, of course. So one thing that we've chatted, that 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.480 little bit that I think maybe folks in some areas 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.599 that I've looked at might not have been aware of. 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:51.280 It's a concept of a joint defense. Could you explain 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.600 for people who aren't familiar what that looks like. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:10:01.000 So, a joint defense is a way of approach a 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:07.319 legal case where there are multiple defendants or multiple arrestees. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.880 Typically in a criminal case, if you have multiple defendants, 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.440 there's sort of a presumption that their interests are at 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:21.280 odds with each other, that one of them or one 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.240 or more of them is going to get thrown under 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:28.840 the bus to reduce the punishment of one or more 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.760 of the others. When we're talking about something like a 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.360 mass arrest or an arrest that takes place in the 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.920 context of a social movement where there are multiple defendants, 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.120 very often those people do not see their interests at 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.600 being at odds with each other. Very often they see 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:53.760 their interests as being unified, and so they want to 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.520 act in solidarity with each other. And there are a 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:02.520 bunch of reasons for for this that are legal, and 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:08.439 they're also political and social reasons. Right just in terms 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:14.480 of people you know, having carrying social relationships, they often 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.920 have commitments to each other and to community. But politically, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:25.520 people often feel that their individual legal interests are less 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.160 the important thing that's at stake and that the thing 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.360 that's at stake is actually the health and welfare of 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:37.800 their social movement, right, and that if they did do 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.520 something like cooperate with the state's investigation, they would actually 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:47.560 be undermining their larger social movement goals. Legally, and this 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:52.880 is really important legally, having a joint defense agreement or 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:59.200 using a joint defense approach allows all of those people 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.760 to work to get other in a privileged context, right 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.360 because they share a unity of interest, and so they 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.800 and their attorneys are able to work on legal strategy together, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.400 are able to do things like negotiate for non cooperating 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.760 plea agreements as a block, are able to just have 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:23.720 you know, more eyes on the problem, more people doing 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:29.960 legal research, more people drafting motions, right, and so in 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:37.440 a very material sense, this is often a legal strategy. 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:45.959 Working together actually leads to better legal outcomes for everybody involved. 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.679 So I want to be clear that this approach, both 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.560 you know, using joint defense agreements and using that approach, 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.880 but also just in terms of an individual attorney client relationship, 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:04.360 acting in a way that's more collaborative is not just cosmetic, 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.920 and it's not just something that makes you feel good. 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:11.040 If you're someone who's committed to anti authoritarian principles in 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.480 a material way. Approaching the attorney client relationship in a 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.840 way that is calculated to more fully incorporate the goals 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:26.559 and expertise of the client or of many clients leads 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:32.960 to better legal outcomes, less punitive outcomes. It leads to 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:37.240 outcomes that are more closely aligned with client values, and 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.120 it leads to outcomes that are better understood by the client, 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.040 even if those outcomes are bad. 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.440 Right, yeah, yeah, at least the part of that process. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:48.679 I think a great example of joint defense that we 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:54.120 discussed would be the j twenty case. Right, if I'm 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.640 not mistaken, it was a group of folks who were 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.680 tried together or who amounted to joint defense, I guess, 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:07.680 against charges that were like fought against some Trump's inauguration. 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:14.200 It was something they were kettled in DC protesting Trump's inauguration, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.800 and there were more than two hundred people arrested in 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:24.040 this mass arrest, and they had a very coordinated defense, 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:29.600 and they all worked together, and ultimately, I'm going to say, 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:34.640 in large part because they had so many eyes on 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.760 the problem, they had so many people working on it, 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.520 they were able to really go through discovery, go through 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:49.160 the state's evidence against them, and find prosecutorial misconduct that 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.480 led to the favorable resolution of those cases. The other 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.320 thing that they did is that they really all refused 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:03.440 to cooperate with the state's investigation, which limited the harm 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.880 that was done to larger social movements because it meant 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.400 that people were not just rolling over on each other 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:16.160 and giving the state information to which it was not entitled, right, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:21.360 like you know, information about people's relationships or interpersonal conflicts, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:28.240 or you know, different kinds of First Amendment protected information 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.640 that the state always wants to have about activists but 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:38.000 which they actually are not entitled to, but which they 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:43.120 often end up getting because people who are facing criminal charges, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:50.160 you know, sometimes will will offer that up in exchange 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:55.560 for you know, what they hope will be some lenience. 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.760 I think that was a really good explanation of how 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.600 these these techniques, like you say, they're not just cosmetic. 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.800 It's not posturing or an aesthetic thing. It can result 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.360 in material benefits as well as aligning with your moral desires. 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.680 Can you explain substantively then, how this looks in an 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.680 attorney client relationship, either with an individual or as a 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:29.880 group now to your joint defense. 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.640 So, you know, like any other relationship that's predicated on 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:41.560 anti authoritarian principles and shared values of mutual aid and 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:49.200 self determination, it requires building trust. It requires clear expectations, 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:54.440 honest communication, respect for each other's expertise and consent. And 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.760 I think, you know, the piece that I think is 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:04.000 sometimes missing is a real understanding from both parties that 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.320 the accused is the person who has rights and liberty 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.680 on the line. The accused is the person whose goals matter. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.160 The accused is the person who needs to be able 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.359 to make decisions about things like whether or not to 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.960 accept a plea offer, whether or not to cooperate with 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.639 the state, whether or not to go to trial, and 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.000 whether or not to testify a trial. The attorney is 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.280 presumably the person who has a lot of expertise with 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.439 the law and a lot of experience with the legal system, 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.479 and that is valuable and important. But you know it, 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.600 really I want people who are facing criminal charges to 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.760 understand how much power they ought to feel comfortable exercising 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.840 in this relationship. You know, it is up to the 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.720 accused whether they want their attorney to take part in 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.800 a joint defense strategy. Now we are seeing some stuff. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.879 I have recently seen some bond conditions imposed on people 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.760 facing criminal charges that appear to me to make it 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:12.919 very difficult for attorneys to engage in a joint defense 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.800 strategy because sometimes it looks like these co defendants are 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:22.800 being forbidden from communicating with each other, and so you know, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.399 that is an interesting wrinkle. But one of the things 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.560 that can mean is that it's up to the accused 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.639 whether they need their attorney to go and argue to 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:33.600 have that bond condition removed. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.800 Right. Yeah, I haven't thought of that, but there are 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.879 definitely especially if you are being proscuted in a group 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.320 or it's alleged to you've conspired to do something illegal, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.199 then yes, that might be condition of your bond and 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.919 that would make it very hard to do a joint defense. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.040 But like you said, that's when you should feel empowered 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.560 to ask your attorney to stop that from being a thing. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.119 Right, Right, the person who's facing charges gets to make 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.720 these decisions, right And I'm saying, well, it's your right 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.119 to decide whether to be involved in a joint defense. 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.040 It's also your right to decide not to be. You 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:14.199 can absolutely exercise your right to independent counsel, meaning the 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.200 right to have an attorney who is not representing anyone 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.680 else who's involved in your case, like who is not 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.479 in any way connected to a co defendant or co arreste. 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:25.240 Now this is not to say that your attorney has 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.639 to do everything you want and they're just a yes man, 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.320 and that if they decline to do everything you instruct 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.479 them to do, that you should fire them. You know, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.159 attorneys do have to operate under certain constraints, and this 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.000 ranges from things like, you know, some law is not 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:48.360 relevant to this case, right. I've occasionally had clients ask 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.840 me to use the uniform Commercial Code to defend their 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:58.719 criminal cases, which is not a thing. And you know, 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.239 I've also had clients ask me to like hold have 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.320 a hearing or vile emotion at a time when like, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:09.320 procedurally that's not permissible. Right. So you know, you can't 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:14.520 just do everything that the client says. But look, typically 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.320 the attorney has control over legal strategy because you know, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.240 as I said, presumably they have expertise with law. But like, 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.399 even if you have decided that you're just going to 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:32.520 defer to your attorney entirely in matters of strategy, or 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.000 even if you have an attorney who's like not super 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.879 comfortable involving you in strategy to the degree that like 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.600 I might be at a minimum, the attorney needs to 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.280 be able to explain their strategy to you and justify 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.159 it right, so you know, again, there needs to be 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:55.160 mutual trust and respect for each other, so expertise, they're 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.920 not just a mouthpiece. But if you feel like they're 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.720 genuinely not listening to your goal or not helping you 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:06.560 to understand what's happening, or they're actively disrespectful, it's really 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.400 important for you to know you can fire your attorney. 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.000 Yeah. I think the one area of at least where 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.600 I've become aware of this is somebody whose attorney was 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.320 either refusing to or somehow was incapable of gendering them 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.600 in the way that they would like to be gendered. 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.520 And in cases like that, you have the right to 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.720 ask your journey, you're your attorney, to use whatever pronouns 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.200 you prefer, and to be referred to using those pronouns. 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:33.440 Is that is that right? 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:40.439 Absolutely? Absolutely. I've certainly heard horror stories, and not just 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.080 and I'll speak to this in a second. I have 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:48.240 heard horror stories not just about public defenders, but also 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:57.119 about private counsel being you know, casually racist, being misogynist, 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:04.399 being transphobic, and you know, being ablest, being really disrespectful 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:13.000 and classist, particularly around things like transportation and childcare. So, 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.520 you know, if you have an attorney who's just straight 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.880 rude or being disrespectful or like being oppressive in some way, 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.000 I would say, you know, the first step I suppose 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:26.240 would be to bring it to their attention, and if 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:31.919 they don't, if they are not responsive, you know, you 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:37.000 should know that you do have a right to choose 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:40.680 your own attorney. Now I do understand that there are 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:46.480 you know, financial issues with just choosing your own attorney, 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:53.960 but particularly in the context of you know, movement related prosecutions, 0:22:54.000 --> 0:23:00.520 they're often not always, but often resources of their to 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.920 you where people will either work to find you someone 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:10.080 who can represent you pro bono or you know, will 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:12.199 raise money. And the other thing is that if you 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:19.440 have a public defender, you can almost always have appointed 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.439 council from another office if you have some kind of 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.560 irretrievable conflict with your attorney. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.040 So I think we should talk about public defenders a 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:34.080 bit because I think sometimes people can think that like 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:36.960 that they're sort of the worst option, or like the 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:38.600 bargain basement choice or what have you. 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:38.800 Went. 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:41.840 In fact, there are some things you can get with 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:44.040 a public defender you're very unlikely to get with private 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.760 counsel and absolute Yeah, let's talk about how defenders a 0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:48.160 little bit. 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:54.880 Sure, I would love to. I love public defenders, especially 0:23:55.080 --> 0:24:01.119 in large cities that have what we would call institutional 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:06.359 public defenders as opposed to you know, everyone takes a 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.639 turn being a public defender for one week out of 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:14.600 the year. You know, people who want to be public 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:20.800 defenders do not go into public defense for the big bucks. 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:24.800 They go into it because they care about defending people 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:30.679 and keeping people out of jail. And very often, you know, 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:34.640 the people who are in those positions care very much 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.600 and are really really well trained, and they are not dummies, 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:44.000 and they will work really hard for you. And I 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.639 do want to push back against the widespread perception that 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:52.520 public defenders are not good attorneys. They very often are 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.879 the best available option. You are often in very very 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.800 good hands. Now, this isn't to say that you're never 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:01.919 going to come across a public defender who is rude 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:06.520 or incompetent in some way, some way. But I would 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:12.720 really really caution you against assuming that the public defender 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:19.560 is not a super qualified, committed attorney. The other thing 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.040 is that the offices of the public defender often have 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:28.639 resources available to them that private counsel do not. You know, 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:33.920 they have investigators, they have social workers, they have vouchers 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:38.200 for public transportation, and all of those things are resources 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:45.199 that I think can be very useful in supporting someone 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:51.320 who's facing criminal charges. So again, you know, certainly, if 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:54.679 you're having some kind of interpersonal problem with your public 0:25:54.720 --> 0:26:00.200 defender or any attorney, I want you to feel really 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:04.480 really empowered to address it and hopefully they're able to, 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.800 you know, respond in a way that's appropriate and explain 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:11.520 what's going on and you know, why things are happening 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:16.359 in whatever way they are. But I think it would 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:21.040 be a mistake to dismiss the public defender as a 0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:21.560 good option. 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:23.960 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I know some public defenders and 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:26.880 some of them are really great people, very very committed, 0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:28.760 like you say, to keeping folks out of jail, which 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:32.720 is his goal in a lot of these cases. 0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:35.080 Some of my best friends are public defenders. 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:40.159 No, they don't and like people obviously will be. I 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.800 guess a lot of people in some who are anti 0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:46.440 authoritarian right are going to be like less than positively 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:49.399 aligned with any sort of institutions or or feel concerned 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:52.080 about interacting with people who are part of these institutions, 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.479 but like as far as those people exist within those 0:26:54.520 --> 0:27:00.520 institutions to keep people out of much worse institutions like jails. 0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:03.080 I think a lot of people who do public defense 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:07.200 really have the sense that they're, you know, that their 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:11.760 mission is harm reduction, right, and they're prepared to operate 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:17.160 in the confines of what are sometimes sort of leviathan 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:20.399 bureaucracies in order to achieve that. 0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:24.080 Yeah, and maybe a lot of folks would have run 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:25.359 into it. I certainly know. I'm met a lot of 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:28.520 public twenties in twenty twenty in the course of covering protest, 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:31.479 and yeah, it is pretty clear that those folks were 0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:35.560 largely aligned with with good things, with stopping the state 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:37.960 doing violence to people in all of the different ways 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:49.959 that it does that. Well, is there anything else that 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:52.320 you'd like us to get to with respect to these 0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:54.960 relationships people might have with their attorney. 0:27:55.920 --> 0:28:00.440 Yeah, I say this. A lot attorneys have an obligation 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:06.040 to give their clients their best understanding of what's going on, 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:12.679 what paths are available to take, and the possible or 0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:16.400 likely outcomes of each of those paths. Right, an attorney 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:20.040 has an obligation to give you the best possible legal 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:25.920