1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Allo Podcast Enjoys. It's me James today and I am 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: joined again by Mo. They are an educator, attorney, abolitionist, 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: and they serve overlapping communities of activists, queer people, and prisoners. 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: And we've heard from them before. We have from them 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: about June eleventh, but today we're talking about something a 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: little different. We're talking about redistributing power in the attorney 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: client relationship. 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: How are you I'm doing okay. How are you, James? 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: I'm existing, I'm fine, I'm thriving. So, yeah, you wanted 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: to talk today, he reached out to talk about this. 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting topic and it's one 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: that like I've become increasingly more aware of in my 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: coverage of some sort of different stuff that's various prosecutions, 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: I guess in the US, and so I was very 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: interested in this. Can you pups like start out by 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: explaining what it is exactly that you want you wanted 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: to discuss within the attorney client relationship. 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, I wanted to talk about building a trusting 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 2: relationship with your attorney where you feel heard and respected 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: and understand what you have a right to expect from 21 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: your attorney and feel empowered to push for it. And 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: this actually I want to address this both from the 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: side of the client, particularly for people who are accused 24 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: of criminal offenses, and I also want to speak a 25 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: little bit to the people who may be representing folks 26 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: who are accused of criminal offenses. For people accused of 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: criminal offenses, I want to make sure that anyone in 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: that position really understands what you have a right to 29 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: expect from that relationship and to feel really confident asking 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: for it. For people who are presenting individuals who are 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: politically radical or people who are facing politically motivated prosecutions, 32 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: I want those attorneys to feel safe and ethically empowered 33 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: to practice criminal defense in a way that honors the 34 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: goals of clients who may define their legal interests not 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: with respect to only their own personal liability, but with 36 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: respect to a larger set of principles or a larger community. Yeah. 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, that's a very it's a good distinction 38 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: to draw, and I think a good thing for people 39 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: to be thinking about. So why is this sort of 40 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: a topic that's important right now? 41 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: Well, so, I certainly don't want to say that participating 42 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: in protests or in social movements is dangerous, or that 43 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: it's even more dangerous than it has been in the past. 44 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: But I am earned that we might be seeing some 45 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: arrests and charges that are a little more unhinged than 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: we've seen in a while. So this isn't new, but 47 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: it may be new to a newer generation of activists. 48 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: And I think some of the community knowledge that was 49 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,559 Speaker 2: cultivated and held twenty or thirty years ago maybe outdated, 50 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: or it might be inaccessible to folks who weren't involved 51 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: back then, or maybe who weren't involved in things that 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: were like subject to this level of state repression twenty 53 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: or thirty years ago. So that includes activists, but it 54 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: also includes even very experienced criminal defense attorneys who maybe 55 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: haven't interacted with these kinds of prosecutions, you know, for 56 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: whatever reason, because they were doing a different area of practice, 57 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: maybe because this was happening to the people they were 58 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: representing in the geographic area where they practice, or like 59 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: it wasn't happening at the time that they were practicing. 60 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: So I think that people on both sides of the 61 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: attorney client relationship could benefit from considering that there are 62 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: some maybe important and time tested methods of working to 63 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: mount a collaborative defense in the context of a politically 64 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 2: motivated prosecution. 65 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's just to kind of piggyback off 66 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: what you said. I think it's incredibly valuable. Often, like 67 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: if you've been part of social movements, protest movements, what 68 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: if you want to call it, like for a long time. 69 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: Often we do have to learn things like the institutional 70 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: memory of movements can be quite short. And a lot 71 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: of people have come to the protest movement now who 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: were not, like in my own case, like involved in 73 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: sort of the campaign against neoliberal globalization in the early 74 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: two thousands, where we screwed up a lot and learned 75 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: a lot, and some us are still around, and some 76 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: of us are not, sadly yet because part of this 77 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: grew ups that that happened, And like a lot of people, understandably, 78 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: right have been radicalized by having their bodily autonomy attacked, 79 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: by seeing the cops continue to murder people after we 80 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: all got in the streets and got shot with rubb 81 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: bullets to ask them to stop murdering people. Like all 82 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: these things that have understandably made people realize that the 83 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: institutional the institutions haven't really responded to their demands for 84 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: basic human decency, and so yeah, they might find themselves 85 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: out in the streets and government doesn't generally yield power willingly, 86 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: and certainly government right now is doing everything to kind 87 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: of take what little liberty and autonomy folks have and 88 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: slice into that. So it's very reasonable to consider these things. 89 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: So if in this attorney client relationship, what would be 90 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: some areas of friction or of maybe I'm phrasing that wrong, 91 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: but like places where people might want to advocate for 92 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: themselves in order to get an outcome that they desire. 93 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: Right well, so I'll certainly get more into the specifics, 94 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: but I guess, you know, I want to talk about 95 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: this because I am seeing disconnects between people in these relationships, 96 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: and just from where I sit, I feel like I 97 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: can see what's going wrong, and I think that there 98 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: are some straightforward solutions, and I think that having compassion 99 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 2: each party having compassion for the other can be really 100 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 2: useful here. So I think like one thing that's happening 101 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: is that attorneys are very much educated to be confident 102 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: unto the point of arrogance, and clients often either don't 103 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 2: feel authorized to push back on their attorne. These ideas 104 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: or they do an attorneys to then just maybe steamroll them. 105 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: And this is not entirely because attorneys are assholes. I 106 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 2: think it is because criminal defense attorneys are very often 107 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: taught to minimize their client's' legal liability by any means necessary, well, 108 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: by any lawful means, I guess that's what I should say. 109 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: So for criminal defense attorneys who do not primarily work 110 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: with movement aligned clients, this often means negotiating deals with 111 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: the prosecution that involve cooperating with the state's investigation, handing 112 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: over information on your confederates, putting the client in an 113 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: isolated or adversarial position with their co defendants or co arrestees, 114 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: or doing things that require a person to renounce or 115 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: disparage the people or the communities that they've been involved 116 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: with that they come from. And I think it's true 117 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: that using these kinds of tactics to minimize your own 118 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: legal risk is very often what people charged with criminal 119 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: offenses want. But that sort of approach is often at 120 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: odds with movement values, and it's often totally inconsistent with 121 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: what activists want. Activists want when they are facing charges, So, 122 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: you know, trying to minimize legal consequences is you know, 123 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: certainly always a part of our job, and it's often 124 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: a totally valid thing for lawyers to be doing. But 125 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: the idea that an attorney's job is solely to mitigate 126 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: legal fallout is not actually entirely accurate. What lawyers are 127 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: supposed to do is work with the client to help 128 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 2: the client articulate their goals, and then the attorney should 129 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: use their expertise and their experience to help the client 130 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: lawfully pursue those goals. And that's what attorneys are supposed 131 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: to do in every case. But I think it often 132 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 2: becomes most salient when the client's goals are less focused 133 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: on minimizing legal consequences and more focused on, for example, 134 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: highlighting movement messages or acting in solidarity with other people 135 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: who are facing similar charges. So, you know, again, I'm 136 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 2: talking about this right now in the context of explicitly 137 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: politically motivated prosecution, but frankly, the goals of the client 138 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: have to lead in all cases. 139 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. So one thing that we've chatted, that 140 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: little bit that I think maybe folks in some areas 141 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 1: that I've looked at might not have been aware of. 142 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: It's a concept of a joint defense. Could you explain 143 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: for people who aren't familiar what that looks like. 144 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: So, a joint defense is a way of approach a 145 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 2: legal case where there are multiple defendants or multiple arrestees. 146 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: Typically in a criminal case, if you have multiple defendants, 147 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: there's sort of a presumption that their interests are at 148 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: odds with each other, that one of them or one 149 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: or more of them is going to get thrown under 150 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: the bus to reduce the punishment of one or more 151 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: of the others. When we're talking about something like a 152 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: mass arrest or an arrest that takes place in the 153 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: context of a social movement where there are multiple defendants, 154 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: very often those people do not see their interests at 155 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: being at odds with each other. Very often they see 156 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: their interests as being unified, and so they want to 157 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 2: act in solidarity with each other. And there are a 158 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: bunch of reasons for for this that are legal, and 159 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 2: they're also political and social reasons. Right just in terms 160 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: of people you know, having carrying social relationships, they often 161 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: have commitments to each other and to community. But politically, 162 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: people often feel that their individual legal interests are less 163 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: the important thing that's at stake and that the thing 164 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: that's at stake is actually the health and welfare of 165 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: their social movement, right, and that if they did do 166 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: something like cooperate with the state's investigation, they would actually 167 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: be undermining their larger social movement goals. Legally, and this 168 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: is really important legally, having a joint defense agreement or 169 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: using a joint defense approach allows all of those people 170 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: to work to get other in a privileged context, right 171 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: because they share a unity of interest, and so they 172 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: and their attorneys are able to work on legal strategy together, 173 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: are able to do things like negotiate for non cooperating 174 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: plea agreements as a block, are able to just have 175 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, more eyes on the problem, more people doing 176 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: legal research, more people drafting motions, right, and so in 177 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: a very material sense, this is often a legal strategy. 178 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 2: Working together actually leads to better legal outcomes for everybody involved. 179 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 2: So I want to be clear that this approach, both 180 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: you know, using joint defense agreements and using that approach, 181 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: but also just in terms of an individual attorney client relationship, 182 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: acting in a way that's more collaborative is not just cosmetic, 183 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: and it's not just something that makes you feel good. 184 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: If you're someone who's committed to anti authoritarian principles in 185 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: a material way. Approaching the attorney client relationship in a 186 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: way that is calculated to more fully incorporate the goals 187 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 2: and expertise of the client or of many clients leads 188 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: to better legal outcomes, less punitive outcomes. It leads to 189 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: outcomes that are more closely aligned with client values, and 190 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: it leads to outcomes that are better understood by the client, 191 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: even if those outcomes are bad. 192 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, at least the part of that process. 193 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: I think a great example of joint defense that we 194 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: discussed would be the j twenty case. Right, if I'm 195 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: not mistaken, it was a group of folks who were 196 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: tried together or who amounted to joint defense, I guess, 197 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: against charges that were like fought against some Trump's inauguration. 198 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: It was something they were kettled in DC protesting Trump's inauguration, 199 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: and there were more than two hundred people arrested in 200 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: this mass arrest, and they had a very coordinated defense, 201 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: and they all worked together, and ultimately, I'm going to say, 202 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: in large part because they had so many eyes on 203 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: the problem, they had so many people working on it, 204 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: they were able to really go through discovery, go through 205 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: the state's evidence against them, and find prosecutorial misconduct that 206 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: led to the favorable resolution of those cases. The other 207 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: thing that they did is that they really all refused 208 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: to cooperate with the state's investigation, which limited the harm 209 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: that was done to larger social movements because it meant 210 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: that people were not just rolling over on each other 211 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: and giving the state information to which it was not entitled, right, 212 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: like you know, information about people's relationships or interpersonal conflicts, 213 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: or you know, different kinds of First Amendment protected information 214 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: that the state always wants to have about activists but 215 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: which they actually are not entitled to, but which they 216 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: often end up getting because people who are facing criminal charges, 217 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes will will offer that up in exchange 218 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: for you know, what they hope will be some lenience. 219 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: I think that was a really good explanation of how 220 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: these these techniques, like you say, they're not just cosmetic. 221 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: It's not posturing or an aesthetic thing. It can result 222 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: in material benefits as well as aligning with your moral desires. 223 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: Can you explain substantively then, how this looks in an 224 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: attorney client relationship, either with an individual or as a 225 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: group now to your joint defense. 226 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: So, you know, like any other relationship that's predicated on 227 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: anti authoritarian principles and shared values of mutual aid and 228 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: self determination, it requires building trust. It requires clear expectations, 229 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: honest communication, respect for each other's expertise and consent. And 230 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: I think, you know, the piece that I think is 231 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: sometimes missing is a real understanding from both parties that 232 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: the accused is the person who has rights and liberty 233 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: on the line. The accused is the person whose goals matter. 234 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: The accused is the person who needs to be able 235 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 2: to make decisions about things like whether or not to 236 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: accept a plea offer, whether or not to cooperate with 237 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: the state, whether or not to go to trial, and 238 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: whether or not to testify a trial. The attorney is 239 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: presumably the person who has a lot of expertise with 240 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: the law and a lot of experience with the legal system, 241 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,479 Speaker 2: and that is valuable and important. But you know it, 242 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: really I want people who are facing criminal charges to 243 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: understand how much power they ought to feel comfortable exercising 244 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: in this relationship. You know, it is up to the 245 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: accused whether they want their attorney to take part in 246 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: a joint defense strategy. Now we are seeing some stuff. 247 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 2: I have recently seen some bond conditions imposed on people 248 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: facing criminal charges that appear to me to make it 249 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 2: very difficult for attorneys to engage in a joint defense 250 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: strategy because sometimes it looks like these co defendants are 251 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: being forbidden from communicating with each other, and so you know, 252 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: that is an interesting wrinkle. But one of the things 253 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: that can mean is that it's up to the accused 254 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: whether they need their attorney to go and argue to 255 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 2: have that bond condition removed. 256 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I haven't thought of that, but there are 257 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: definitely especially if you are being proscuted in a group 258 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: or it's alleged to you've conspired to do something illegal, 259 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: then yes, that might be condition of your bond and 260 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: that would make it very hard to do a joint defense. 261 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: But like you said, that's when you should feel empowered 262 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: to ask your attorney to stop that from being a thing. 263 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: Right, Right, the person who's facing charges gets to make 264 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: these decisions, right And I'm saying, well, it's your right 265 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: to decide whether to be involved in a joint defense. 266 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: It's also your right to decide not to be. You 267 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 2: can absolutely exercise your right to independent counsel, meaning the 268 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 2: right to have an attorney who is not representing anyone 269 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: else who's involved in your case, like who is not 270 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 2: in any way connected to a co defendant or co arreste. 271 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: Now this is not to say that your attorney has 272 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 2: to do everything you want and they're just a yes man, 273 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: and that if they decline to do everything you instruct 274 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 2: them to do, that you should fire them. You know, 275 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 2: attorneys do have to operate under certain constraints, and this 276 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: ranges from things like, you know, some law is not 277 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: relevant to this case, right. I've occasionally had clients ask 278 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: me to use the uniform Commercial Code to defend their 279 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 2: criminal cases, which is not a thing. And you know, 280 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,239 Speaker 2: I've also had clients ask me to like hold have 281 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: a hearing or vile emotion at a time when like, 282 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: procedurally that's not permissible. Right. So you know, you can't 283 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: just do everything that the client says. But look, typically 284 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: the attorney has control over legal strategy because you know, 285 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 2: as I said, presumably they have expertise with law. But like, 286 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: even if you have decided that you're just going to 287 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: defer to your attorney entirely in matters of strategy, or 288 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: even if you have an attorney who's like not super 289 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 2: comfortable involving you in strategy to the degree that like 290 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: I might be at a minimum, the attorney needs to 291 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: be able to explain their strategy to you and justify 292 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 2: it right, so you know, again, there needs to be 293 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: mutual trust and respect for each other, so expertise, they're 294 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: not just a mouthpiece. But if you feel like they're 295 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: genuinely not listening to your goal or not helping you 296 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: to understand what's happening, or they're actively disrespectful, it's really 297 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 2: important for you to know you can fire your attorney. 298 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the one area of at least where 299 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: I've become aware of this is somebody whose attorney was 300 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: either refusing to or somehow was incapable of gendering them 301 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: in the way that they would like to be gendered. 302 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: And in cases like that, you have the right to 303 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: ask your journey, you're your attorney, to use whatever pronouns 304 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: you prefer, and to be referred to using those pronouns. 305 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: Is that is that right? 306 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely. I've certainly heard horror stories, and not just 307 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: and I'll speak to this in a second. I have 308 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: heard horror stories not just about public defenders, but also 309 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 2: about private counsel being you know, casually racist, being misogynist, 310 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: being transphobic, and you know, being ablest, being really disrespectful 311 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: and classist, particularly around things like transportation and childcare. So, 312 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: you know, if you have an attorney who's just straight 313 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 2: rude or being disrespectful or like being oppressive in some way, 314 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: I would say, you know, the first step I suppose 315 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: would be to bring it to their attention, and if 316 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 2: they don't, if they are not responsive, you know, you 317 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: should know that you do have a right to choose 318 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: your own attorney. Now I do understand that there are 319 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: you know, financial issues with just choosing your own attorney, 320 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: but particularly in the context of you know, movement related prosecutions, 321 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: they're often not always, but often resources of their to 322 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 2: you where people will either work to find you someone 323 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: who can represent you pro bono or you know, will 324 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 2: raise money. And the other thing is that if you 325 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: have a public defender, you can almost always have appointed 326 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 2: council from another office if you have some kind of 327 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: irretrievable conflict with your attorney. 328 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: So I think we should talk about public defenders a 329 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: bit because I think sometimes people can think that like 330 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: that they're sort of the worst option, or like the 331 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: bargain basement choice or what have you. 332 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: Went. 333 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: In fact, there are some things you can get with 334 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: a public defender you're very unlikely to get with private 335 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: counsel and absolute Yeah, let's talk about how defenders a 336 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: little bit. 337 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 2: Sure, I would love to. I love public defenders, especially 338 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: in large cities that have what we would call institutional 339 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: public defenders as opposed to you know, everyone takes a 340 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: turn being a public defender for one week out of 341 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: the year. You know, people who want to be public 342 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: defenders do not go into public defense for the big bucks. 343 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: They go into it because they care about defending people 344 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 2: and keeping people out of jail. And very often, you know, 345 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: the people who are in those positions care very much 346 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: and are really really well trained, and they are not dummies, 347 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: and they will work really hard for you. And I 348 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 2: do want to push back against the widespread perception that 349 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: public defenders are not good attorneys. They very often are 350 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 2: the best available option. You are often in very very 351 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: good hands. Now, this isn't to say that you're never 352 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 2: going to come across a public defender who is rude 353 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: or incompetent in some way, some way. But I would 354 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: really really caution you against assuming that the public defender 355 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: is not a super qualified, committed attorney. The other thing 356 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: is that the offices of the public defender often have 357 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 2: resources available to them that private counsel do not. You know, 358 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: they have investigators, they have social workers, they have vouchers 359 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: for public transportation, and all of those things are resources 360 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 2: that I think can be very useful in supporting someone 361 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: who's facing criminal charges. So again, you know, certainly, if 362 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 2: you're having some kind of interpersonal problem with your public 363 00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 2: defender or any attorney, I want you to feel really 364 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: really empowered to address it and hopefully they're able to, 365 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: you know, respond in a way that's appropriate and explain 366 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: what's going on and you know, why things are happening 367 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: in whatever way they are. But I think it would 368 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: be a mistake to dismiss the public defender as a 369 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: good option. 370 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I know some public defenders and 371 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: some of them are really great people, very very committed, 372 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: like you say, to keeping folks out of jail, which 373 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: is his goal in a lot of these cases. 374 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: Some of my best friends are public defenders. 375 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: No, they don't and like people obviously will be. I 376 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: guess a lot of people in some who are anti 377 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: authoritarian right are going to be like less than positively 378 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: aligned with any sort of institutions or or feel concerned 379 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: about interacting with people who are part of these institutions, 380 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 1: but like as far as those people exist within those 381 00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: institutions to keep people out of much worse institutions like jails. 382 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people who do public defense 383 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: really have the sense that they're, you know, that their 384 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: mission is harm reduction, right, and they're prepared to operate 385 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 2: in the confines of what are sometimes sort of leviathan 386 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 2: bureaucracies in order to achieve that. 387 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe a lot of folks would have run 388 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: into it. I certainly know. I'm met a lot of 389 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: public twenties in twenty twenty in the course of covering protest, 390 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,479 Speaker 1: and yeah, it is pretty clear that those folks were 391 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: largely aligned with with good things, with stopping the state 392 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: doing violence to people in all of the different ways 393 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 1: that it does that. Well, is there anything else that 394 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: you'd like us to get to with respect to these 395 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: relationships people might have with their attorney. 396 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I say this. A lot attorneys have an obligation 397 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: to give their clients their best understanding of what's going on, 398 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 2: what paths are available to take, and the possible or 399 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 2: likely outcomes of each of those paths. Right, an attorney 400 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: has an obligation to give you the best possible legal 401 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 2: advice based on your articulated goals, their understanding of the law, 402 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: their experience, and their clinical judgment, and their clients have 403 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: no corresponding obligation to follow that advice, which can be 404 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: frustrating from where I sit, but it is nevertheless a 405 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: critical attribute of my work that I do not get 406 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 2: to make big decisions for other people. They get to 407 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: make decisions that I would not make if I were 408 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: allowed to make them, but I'm not. I think that, 409 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 2: you know, I try to be really transparent with my 410 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: clients about what my ethical commitments are, what I will 411 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: do for them, what I'm not allowed to do for them. 412 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: You know. I try to have those conversations in an 413 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 2: ongoing way. I don't know that that's common practice. I 414 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: think people are really busy and that's a hard practice 415 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: to maintain. But I want to encourage people who are 416 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: in an attorney client relationship to initiate those conversations right. 417 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: I guess. The only other thing I would say is, 418 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 2: you know, if you have concerns with your lawyer, address 419 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: those concerns immediately, because the farther into a case you are, 420 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: the harder it is to have that conversation, and the 421 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: farther into a case you are, the harder it is 422 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: to fire your lawyer. You have a right to choose 423 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: your own attorney, but if you're, you know, one week 424 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: out from going to trial, the judge may not allow 425 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: you to do it. Yeah, right, So yeah, I mean, 426 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: I guess, I just I just wanted to tell anyone 427 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: who's listening that if you are in a situation where 428 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: you have to have a relationship with an attorney, you know, 429 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: it's already probably kind of a bad situation, and you 430 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: should be in a relationship where you feel like your 431 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: lawyer is taking all of your goals seriously, which includes 432 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: not just your straightforward legal goals, but movement support and solidarity. 433 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: And if your lawyer is disrespecting your goals, or disrespecting 434 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: your identities, or disrespecting other kinds of ethical commitments you have, 435 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 2: you can choose to find a different attorney, and there 436 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: are resources available, and ultimately these decisions are yours, and 437 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: then I had some resources that I wanted to be great. 438 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 2: So for people who may be accused of criminal offenses, 439 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: there's a really great book called The Tilted Guide to 440 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: Being a Defendant, and if you google that you can 441 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: find a free pdf of it. I would also encourage 442 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: people to reach out to and to become non lawyer 443 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: legal workers, so people who have experience with jail support, 444 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: people who have experience with court support, and with providing 445 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: sort of community support to people who are facing charges. 446 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 2: If you are somebody who has an ongoing case, having 447 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: a support committee that includes at least one legal worker 448 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: can be just so critical in maintaining morale and in 449 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 2: feeling supported, and in having the wherewithal to be an 450 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: active participant in your own defense. And we do know 451 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: that when people are active participants in their own defense, 452 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: they have better legal outcomes. 453 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: Yes, I would imagine even if they don't have better 454 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: legal outcomes, they have ones that are easier for them 455 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: to understand. They're more satisfactory because of that. 456 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, there are a lot of times when 457 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: there are no good options on the table, don't. I 458 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 2: want to be very clear, being an active participant in 459 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: your own defense or having a really great attorney who 460 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 2: really listens to you and respects your goals does not 461 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: mean that you are not going to experience punishment or 462 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: state repression. It means that you are going to have 463 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: a better handle on what your options are and why 464 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: things are happening in the way that they are. So 465 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: even if you end up in a situation that involves, 466 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: you know, for example, spending time in carceral confinement, you 467 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: will at least understand how you got there, and you 468 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: will understand what the other possible options were. Right, you know, 469 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 2: somebody might choose to endure punishment rather than cooperate with 470 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: the state. And even if that is not what most 471 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: people would understand as a better legal outcome, it is 472 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: an outcome that at least was more intentionally pursued than 473 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: the alternative. 474 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, So where could people find these these 475 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: non loyal legal workers if they wanted to add one, 476 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: or if they know, if they wanted support from one. 477 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 2: If people wanted to find legal workers in their own community. 478 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: I mean typically they're they're involved with movements. They might 479 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 2: be associated with your local chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. 480 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: They might be the people who are most active in 481 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 2: jail support. If you really can't find anybody, you can 482 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: call the National Lawyer's Guild Anti Repression Hotline if you 483 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 2: are actively facing charges. That number is two one two 484 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: six seven nine two eight one one, and we can 485 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 2: try to connect with you with appropriate legal resources in 486 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: your community. That is one way that I would encourage 487 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: people to reach out if you are facing charges and 488 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: you're having a hard time connecting with legal resources. That 489 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: hotline was mostly for federal federal cases and for federal repression, 490 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: but if you call it, we will do our best 491 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 2: to connect you with appropriate resources wherever you are. And 492 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 2: there are also some resources for lawyers that I wanted 493 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: to hyppear, which are, first of all, the National Lawyer's Guild, 494 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 2: which is a bar association for people who value human 495 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: rights over property rights. 496 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: What a dark situation that this is the subset of 497 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: human beings. Yeah, that the energy are great, some positive 498 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: energy experiences. 499 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 2: What a dark situation that it hadn't occurred to me? 500 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 2: How telling that was about lawyers as a whole. 501 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, when a subset of your professor, the subset 502 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: of my profession is equally the dark and terrible people's 503 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: we just have to try and be better. I guess. 504 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 2: The other thing that is available for attorneys who are 505 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 2: interested is there's a book put out by the same 506 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 2: people who wrote The Tilted Guide to Being a Defendant 507 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 2: for attorneys, and it's called Representing Radicals. And that is 508 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: I think available through AK Press. 509 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: You should buy it from a cap Press directly and 510 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: not from Jeffrey Bezos in any way. 511 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 2: Thank you. But and the other thing is there are 512 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: a lot of attorneys around the country who are more 513 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: than happy to consult, to act as mentors, to share motions, 514 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 2: to share legal research. The people who work in movement 515 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: spaces as lawyers, are typically always prepared to share our 516 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 2: experience and resources because we have a stake and other 517 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: people becoming really good at this. You know. You know, 518 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: my goal is to have fewer clients. So if anyone 519 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 2: is interested in helping me to achieve that goal, either 520 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 2: by going to law school or by taking some of 521 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 2: my clients or taking some of the people who might 522 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 2: otherwise be my clients, please I would be delighted to 523 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 2: shepherd you into movement defense. 524 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be great. If we have any little 525 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: like budding movement defenders, how would they be able to 526 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: find you. 527 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: Oh yes, if you would like to find me on 528 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 2: the internet, please don't. But I do have a website 529 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 2: that you can find if you google me. It is 530 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: mo at Law, and I am pretty available if you 531 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: reach out to me by email and have questions. Right, 532 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 2: But generally when I come on these things, the only 533 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: thing I have to plug is the concept of not 534 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 2: talking to cops. 535 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to do an episode on that. Maybe we'll 536 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: do it one day. I think we should do an 537 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: expanded how to not talk to Cops guide the. 538 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: I guess it's not just the concept of not talking 539 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: to cops, it's actually the practice of not talking to cops. 540 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: And certainly, like it's somebody myself here lives on the 541 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: border and has to deal with all kinds of different 542 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: jurisdictions of cops on an almost daily basis, just in 543 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: the travel I need to do to live my life. 544 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: It can be complicated and scary, and if you're not 545 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: a citizen, it becomes even more complicated and scary. So, 546 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: oh yeah, that's the thing we should discuss. 547 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 2: Indeed, I would like to say that apart from some 548 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 2: very very specific exceptions that involve being at borders or 549 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 2: being subpoenaed to a federal granjurie. You never have an 550 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: obligation to talk to cops, to answer their questions, or 551 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 2: to cooperate with their investigations. That doesn't mean you can 552 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 2: obstruct their investigations, but you absolutely have no affirmative obligation 553 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 2: to speak to police officers. And if they ask you, 554 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 2: if they are trying to interrogate you or ask you questions, 555 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 2: you can say I am going to remain silent and 556 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 2: I want to speak to a lawyer. And if the 557 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 2: FEDS show up at your house or call you on 558 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,479 Speaker 2: the phone, or come to your office or your place 559 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 2: of work, you can say, I am represented by counsel. 560 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: Please leave your name and number and my lawyer will 561 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 2: call you. 562 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, it's good to have scripts. I want to Yeah, 563 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: I think we should. We should break down and detail 564 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: some more scenarios. We should do it in another episode 565 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: because it'll be maybe a bit longer. Yes, and yeah, 566 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: I think folks, maybe I think everyone understands the concept, 567 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: but the practice and there's that by tea given theirs. 568 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: Great. Yeah, And if you don't yet have an attorney 569 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 2: and you feel uncomfortable saying I'm represented by counsel. You 570 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: can just say, please leave your name and number and 571 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 2: my lawyer will call you. And then you can call 572 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 2: the National Lawyers Killed Anti Federal Repression Hotline at two 573 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: and two six seven nine two eight one one and 574 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: have a privileged conversation about your rights, risks, and responsibilities 575 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: and we can connect you with an attorney in your area. 576 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. That is excellent, actionable advice. Yeah, thank you so 577 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: much for giving us so much of your time and help. Yeah, 578 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. I'm sure everyone else does too. 579 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 2: Not at all, it's my pleasure. I am always available 580 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: to come and talk to you about various the various 581 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 2: rights of people accused of criminal offenses. Usually I am 582 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 2: talking about your rights with respect to the state, but 583 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 2: it has become really evident that I needed to talk 584 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 2: about people's rights with respect to their own attorneys. 585 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's empowering for people to hear this. So I'm 586 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: glad we talked about it me too. It could happen 587 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: here as a production of cool Zone Media. 588 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 589 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: cool zonemedia dot com. 590 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 591 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: or wherever. 592 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: You listen to podcasts, you can find sources for It 593 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 2: could happen here, Updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot com 594 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 2: slash sources. Thanks for listening.