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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four twenty nine of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to marginalized intersectional identities, black women and women of color

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Speaker 1: are no stranger, But if we zoom out, what does

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Speaker 1: that experience look like across systems, access, and paychecks? Today

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Speaker 1: I'm pleased to be joined by economists, advocate and author

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Speaker 1: and a gifty. She's here to talk about her new book,

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Speaker 1: The Double Tax, How Women of Color are overcharged and underpaid,

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Speaker 1: A powerful data driven exploration of the hidden costs of

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Speaker 1: being both a woman and a racial minority in today's economy.

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Speaker 1: During our conversation, we dive into the concept of the

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Speaker 1: double tax, the systemic forces that undervalue women of color,

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Speaker 1: and what it means to work towards an economy that

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Speaker 1: truly works for everyone. If something resonates with you while

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Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag TVG in session or I joined us

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Speaker 1: over in our Patreon channel to talk more about the episode.

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Speaker 1: You can join us at community do Therapy for Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, Anna, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So much for having me. I'm extremely honored this platform

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Speaker 2: has connected with me with my therapist, and so I'm

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Speaker 2: just so grateful for y'all existing and just being here

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Speaker 2: for black women.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. I always enjoy hearing that.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, so, I.

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Speaker 1: Really want to dive into your work, Anna, because you

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Speaker 1: have coined the term double text, which refers to the

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Speaker 1: compounded cost of being both a woman and a racialized minority.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me how you coin that term and

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Speaker 1: then how your research really shaped the way the book

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Speaker 1: turned out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, as you just noted, Yes, the double tax is

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Speaker 2: the compounded cost of racism and sexism, and I think

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Speaker 2: that black women have sort of been ahead of the

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Speaker 2: game on this front for decades. So I like to

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Speaker 2: say that the double Tax is sort of the quantification

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Speaker 2: of massage renoir fully realized. And so for me, I

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Speaker 2: think that this book and the research that came about

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Speaker 2: to inform this book was really a product of sort

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Speaker 2: of my own training in my PhD program. So I

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Speaker 2: study policy and economics. I'm a PhD student at Harvard,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the questions I asked around race, gender,

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Speaker 2: and the economy. But a lot of times when you're

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Speaker 2: digging into the research, digging into the literature, they almost

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Speaker 2: always focus on either race or gender. So there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of really great work on gender, gender equality, how

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Speaker 2: do we make things more equal? But then those studies

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Speaker 2: that are about women don't actually cut across race, and

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Speaker 2: so you're not sure which women are actually benefiting from

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Speaker 2: the things that folks are trying to intervene on, or

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Speaker 2: even what types of inequities that they're trying to under earth.

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Speaker 2: And so this book really was inspired by the lack

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Speaker 2: of you know, language around this and the literature, but

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Speaker 2: also the even like just bringing the literature that we

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Speaker 2: know that's already touching on this to the forefront since

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Speaker 2: it tends to not get a lot of attention because

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Speaker 2: the folks who are doing that tend to look like

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Speaker 2: you and me.

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Speaker 1: Hmm, okay, So I'm honestly surprised Anna that, like, right

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Speaker 1: now we are still having a lack of focus on

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Speaker 1: what it means to be a minority and be a

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Speaker 1: woman right like. It feels like, Okay, surely there are

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Speaker 1: enough people who are doing this work where we're getting

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Speaker 1: much more research there, but you're saying even still, there

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Speaker 1: is still a lack of research and a lack of

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Speaker 1: people kind of doing this work.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So, I think that qualitative researchers, folks who interview

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Speaker 2: people have done such an exceptional work, such exceptional job,

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Speaker 2: excuse me, of documenting people's experiences, in people's stories, and

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Speaker 2: how those stories sort of inform, you know, how we

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Speaker 2: think about inequality both through race and and sometimes even

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Speaker 2: through class. But I would argue that the quantitative side

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Speaker 2: of things is still quite lacking. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: black imn economists who have done a great job of

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Speaker 2: sort of digging into the numbers when it comes to intersectionality.

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Speaker 2: But it's actually not something that you see widespread, namely

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Speaker 2: because of who's doing the work. Right, So economics is

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Speaker 2: notoriously white, notoriously male, and it's almost always, you know,

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Speaker 2: it leans towards like higher socioeconomic status. And so the

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Speaker 2: folks who are asking these types of questions that would

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Speaker 2: inform the discourse, would inform the policies, just don't look

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Speaker 2: like the people who this particular thing called the double

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Speaker 2: tax even applies to. And so again, this is sort

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Speaker 2: of an attempt to bring together what we already know

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Speaker 2: and to hopefully inspire other folks to ask questions too.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So you interviewed over one hundred women for

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Speaker 1: your book. What were some of the maybe most surprising

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Speaker 1: or maybe even heartbreaking stories that you found as a

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Speaker 1: part of your research.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so one, I got to give credit to

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Speaker 2: the folks who helped out with this because I'm a

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Speaker 2: quantitative scholar, leaned on my qualitative scholar colleagues, and so

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Speaker 2: shout out to Kaylee, shout out to Alexa who really

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Speaker 2: kind of took the reins and making sure that we

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Speaker 2: had cultural competency when we were talking to these women

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Speaker 2: so they could speak freely. And I would say, like

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Speaker 2: some of the insights that really shocked me up, Maybe

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Speaker 2: I'll start with the first one, what inspired the book?

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Speaker 2: So I remember, when you know, we were getting ready

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Speaker 2: to sort of pitch this book to publishers, and when

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Speaker 2: you're doing that for folks who don't know, you have

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Speaker 2: to write your first chapter. And so I decided to

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Speaker 2: talk to a group of black high school girls about

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Speaker 2: what costs they're facing right now as they're navigating adolescents.

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Speaker 2: And I thought that the costs that they would bring

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Speaker 2: up were costs that I kind of dealt with when

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Speaker 2: I was growing up, which was, maybe you're spending a

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Speaker 2: lot of money on makeup but you can't find the

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Speaker 2: right shade, or just thinking about other things related to that.

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Speaker 2: But funnily enough, the cost that I've dealt with, the

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Speaker 2: ones that you've dealt with, doctor Joy, and even the

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Speaker 2: costs that like my mother have dealt with, they were

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Speaker 2: reflected in the answers that these young girls were saying.

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Speaker 2: I said, so, what is most costly for y'all? And

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Speaker 2: they said, hair and the fact that hair is still

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Speaker 2: a cost that young black girls in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 2: have to think about, despite all the work that's been

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Speaker 2: done to really destigmatize black hair, to normalize natural hair,

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Speaker 2: to celebrate our curls and our coils. That made me like, okay, so, like,

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Speaker 2: I don't want my nieces who are now, you know,

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Speaker 2: three and four to have to deal with this in

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Speaker 2: ten years, right. So I think for me that gave

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Speaker 2: a new sense of purpose for why a book like

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Speaker 2: this needs to exist, because I think part of it

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Speaker 2: too is that these costs that you know were being

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Speaker 2: illuminated by the women that we were speaking to are

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Speaker 2: costs that are being illuminated by women who are often

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Speaker 2: forgotten in conversations about women. So this is something I

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Speaker 2: talked about recently online, where you know, I think people

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Speaker 2: in power think about womanhood very narrowly, and we are

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Speaker 2: seeing that in a lot of different ways, right the

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Speaker 2: dimensions of identity that they're focused on, or maybe like

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Speaker 2: one or two dimensions of identity, And I think that

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Speaker 2: that then means that the women who most of the

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Speaker 2: world is made up of in terms of women in general,

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Speaker 2: are forgotten. Their stories are not actually illuminated. And I

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Speaker 2: would say another thing that kind of shocked me, at

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Speaker 2: least with the hair chapter, is that we actually had

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to talk to Asian American women, and I

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Speaker 2: was really surprised to find out that they also go

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Speaker 2: through the same trial and error process that we do

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Speaker 2: through products. So products that are advertised for white women

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Speaker 2: don't actually work for their hair either, and so they

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Speaker 2: have to kind of go through similar processes of just

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out what works well. And then I

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Speaker 2: think the other story that really comes to mind here

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Speaker 2: that really shocked me was the story about home ownership.

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Speaker 2: So one of the first questions that we asked the

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Speaker 2: two groups of women we interviewed black women and we

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Speaker 2: interviewed white women. We asked them, you know, what percentage

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Speaker 2: of people you know owned homes? And so I think

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Speaker 2: for black women it was somewhere between ten percent to

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Speaker 2: about maybe eighty or ninety percent. For white women, it

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Speaker 2: was somewhere between like I want to say forty percent

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Speaker 2: of my beginning that wrong, but up to about one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent, right, So everybody they know owns a home,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's the disparity. There was quite striking

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Speaker 2: this idea that like where even wealth begins is fundamentally

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Speaker 2: shaped by our networks are upbringing, and these are things

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Speaker 2: that are not talked about out in the open, especially

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Speaker 2: as it relates to women's lives. And so I think

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Speaker 2: that this book, what I love about it is it

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Speaker 2: doesn't just talk about the numbers, which I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of folks get maybe exposure to through studies and

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Speaker 2: even sometimes news articles, but it really brings those numbers

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Speaker 2: and marries them with the stories to say that these

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Speaker 2: are not just like coincidences, these are patterns.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate the story around the cost of hair and

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Speaker 1: when you Firth mentioned and I was like, oh, are

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Speaker 1: they spending a lot of money because they want to

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Speaker 1: like change it up a lot, and like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: want to answer fun new colors or now I want braids.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like the cost is really around like

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Speaker 1: trying products and thinking that a certain product will work

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Speaker 1: for your hair and then it doesn't. So it's really

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Speaker 1: still a lack of products for our hair.

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Speaker 2: You know. One study finds that there's a difference in

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Speaker 2: how leading brands sell hair for straight hair and hair

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Speaker 2: for coily hair by the ounce, So it's like a

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Speaker 2: twenty cent difference. That twenty cent difference can become a

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Speaker 2: matter of dollars when it comes down to it, right,

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Speaker 2: because those ounce busiesf you moultify them by seventeen ounces, Right,

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Speaker 2: it becomes a certain amount of money that we're spending

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Speaker 2: on shampoo and conditioner. We're just talking about shampoo and conditioner,

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Speaker 2: not to mention that we know that there's work that

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Speaker 2: shows that folks who are of African descent we go

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Speaker 2: through differences in how our hair sort of sheds or

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Speaker 2: is damaged easily by the environments that we're in. And

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Speaker 2: so we're also having to just get more products just

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Speaker 2: to ensure that our hair remains healthy. And I think

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Speaker 2: what people don't know, right, this is something that I

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Speaker 2: dealt with when I was growing up, and I imagine

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Speaker 2: that you dealt with too, is like just how much

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Speaker 2: we spend on our hair just to kind of conform

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Speaker 2: to the beauty standard, right, or to ensure that we

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Speaker 2: are not penalized for looking unprofessional. I don't think people

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Speaker 2: really know how much black women are spending on their hair.

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Speaker 2: For example, these braids that I have in right now gorgeous. However,

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Speaker 2: the way it turned in my pocket book, Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'm spending three point fifty to four hundred dollars and

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Speaker 2: that's on the lower end. Folks I know can spend

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Speaker 2: upwards of seven hundred dollars on their hair. If you're

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Speaker 2: buying wigs, you're spending a good chunk of change just

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Speaker 2: to look good. Right. And the gag of the matter

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Speaker 2: is like, if you decide I'm going to rock my

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Speaker 2: natural curls, if you decide I'm going to rock my

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Speaker 2: natural hair, depending on the texture of your natural hair, right,

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Speaker 2: you might get penalized within the workplace or within the

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Speaker 2: school yard about that. And this idea that this constant

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Speaker 2: policing over black women and black girl's looks, and that

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Speaker 2: actually does come at a cost, not just for you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe the parent or the guardian that's watching the black girl,

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Speaker 2: but also for the black girl herself. I think one

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Speaker 2: thing that was extremely heartbreaking to hear and was also

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Speaker 2: backup by data that we saw from the UK, from

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Speaker 2: the US, is that black girls are still being critiqued

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Speaker 2: for their hair texture. And what I say in the

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Speaker 2: book is that you know, if we decide to dye

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Speaker 2: our hair purple, and a white girl decides to die

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Speaker 2: her hair purple, the white girls called quirky. But our

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Speaker 2: economic status is now called into question. Oh maybe that

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Speaker 2: maybe she's coming from an unkempt home. Maybe people don't

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Speaker 2: think that she was raised right, even though we're still

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Speaker 2: trying to express ourselves. And so for me, this is

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Speaker 2: where the double tax shows up at least the cost

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Speaker 2: of presentability and beauty in general.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know the cost and terms of like

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Speaker 1: the money, but also the cost in terms of time,

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Speaker 1: Like I would imagine the braids that you have that

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Speaker 1: looks like a six to eight hour at least.

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Speaker 2: How did you know, job? That's exactly right, bro. I

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Speaker 2: was sitting there and I said, are we done? And

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Speaker 2: they were like, you asked for small parts, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I got you, but like I have somewhere to be.

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Speaker 2: But that's the point, right, And I think now and

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Speaker 2: days we're seeing people, you know, when they're in the

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Speaker 2: brading chair, they'll be on their laptops. But I remember

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Speaker 2: back in the day, like you weren't really expected to

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Speaker 2: do that. So it's not just that you're losing eight

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Speaker 2: hours in the day, you're losing eight hours of wages.

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Speaker 2: Potentially you got to take the day off and They're

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Speaker 2: not going to give you a paid day off to

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Speaker 2: get your hair.

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Speaker 1: Done, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So something else you mentioned, Anna, and this is maybe

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Speaker 1: related to your work, but maybe not. You talked about

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Speaker 1: like the questions around like home ownership, and for so long,

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Speaker 1: homeownership has kind of been the goal standard in terms

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Speaker 1: of what it looks like to build wealth. Is that

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Speaker 1: still the case, Like, are we still seeing like home

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Speaker 1: ownership is like one true way to wealth.

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Speaker 2: Kind of in our communities. That's such a great question.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a couple answers to that. So there's

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Speaker 2: two black economists called Derreck Hamilton and Sandy Daerty, and

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Speaker 2: they said something along the lines of a lot of

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Speaker 2: people say that home ownership is the way to build wealth,

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Speaker 2: but what the actual reality is is that home ownership

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Speaker 2: is actually the signal that you can build wealth essentially, right.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is actually a very good point

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Speaker 2: because if you look at the difference in the wealth

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Speaker 2: portfolios between black families and white families, white families have

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Speaker 2: a much more diversified portfolio. They have stocks, they have investments,

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Speaker 2: they have homes that they own, they also have other

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Speaker 2: properties that they own as well, whereas with black folks,

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Speaker 2: almost all of our wealth is tied up in our homes.

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Speaker 2: One of the most shocking statistics that I came across

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Speaker 2: us in the research was from the National Realtors Association.

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Speaker 2: So what they do is they do like a snapshot

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Speaker 2: report of who's a homeowner in a given year. So

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Speaker 2: we're talking about twenty twenty four. If you think about

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Speaker 2: the number like or the share of new homeowners that

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Speaker 2: were black, right, amongst all black homeowners in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: forty nine percent of Black homeowners were new or home buyers,

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Speaker 2: rather new new home buyers, first time home buyers, right,

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Speaker 2: forty nine percent. That means that out of all the

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Speaker 2: Black people who bought homes in twenty twenty four, half

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Speaker 2: of them were buying homes for the first time. Okay,

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Speaker 2: now look at white folks. This is the number that

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Speaker 2: kind of radicalized me a little bit. You look at

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Speaker 2: white folks in twenty twenty four, out of all the

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Speaker 2: white folks that bought homes, only twenty percent of them

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Speaker 2: we're first time homemyers. That means eighty percent we're buying

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Speaker 2: their second, third, fourth, or fifth home. I think when

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Speaker 2: we talk about home ownership and whether or not it

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Speaker 2: is the right way to build wealth. I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: it's the wrong way, because I don't think that's what

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Speaker 2: the evidence adjusts entirely. But I think what we do

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Speaker 2: know is that having other streams of wealth, or having

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Speaker 2: other wells like to draw from, makes a difference. And again,

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Speaker 2: just to kind of bring in the numbers, the Federal

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank of Saint Louis finds that, you know, for

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Speaker 2: every dollar of wealth a white guy has, white women

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Speaker 2: have seventy eight cents. Black women. Take a guess how

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Speaker 2: out of the sense how many how many do you

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Speaker 2: think we have?

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Speaker 1: Forty five?

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Speaker 2: You said forty five?

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Speaker 1: Mm hm, go down, Oh wow, thirty four.

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Speaker 2: Eight cents?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: This is why I think this book is really important

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Speaker 2: because I think a lot of times when people talk about, oh,

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Speaker 2: gender inequality or gender equality, they're not including stories about

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Speaker 2: black women, They're not including stories about poor women, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And I think that you cannot have a

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Speaker 2: full holistic conversation about how we achieve gender equality without

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Speaker 2: talking about racial inequality, without talking about class inequality. And

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Speaker 2: so to your question about whether or not home ownership

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Speaker 2: is still the best way to build wealth for black folks.

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Speaker 2: It's a pathway to build wealth. But you also have

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Speaker 2: to recognize too that there are other pathways that other

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Speaker 2: groups are building wealth through, and if you can gain

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Speaker 2: access to those pathways, great, But the reality of the

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Speaker 2: matter is, what we know from the data is that

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Speaker 2: even if black folks saved as much as white folks,

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Speaker 2: you know, was able to make as much as white folks,

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Speaker 2: Even if the education distribution was aligned in such a

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Speaker 2: way that we were being educated at the same level

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Speaker 2: of white folks, there's only one policy that actually closes

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Speaker 2: this racial wealth gap that we've been talking about for

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Speaker 2: so many decades and so many centuries, and that is reparations.

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Speaker 2: Anybody who's having a conversation about anything else outside of

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Speaker 2: that is not having a serious conversation. So I can

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Speaker 2: tell you to go buy a home, and sure, that's

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Speaker 2: one way that black folks are building wealth in this country.

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Speaker 2: I will say though, that because you're at the mercy

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Speaker 2: of the housing market, if your wealth only lies within

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Speaker 2: your house, what happens with the housing market will affect

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Speaker 2: your wealth, and so you might want to diversify. But

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Speaker 2: I also say that the reality is that there are

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Speaker 2: historic wrongs that absolutely need to be righted, and that

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Speaker 2: is something that you should be pushing for and the

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Speaker 2: kinds of people you elect, the kind of policies that

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Speaker 2: you support.

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Speaker 1: Except so, these numbers have never been great, but I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've been paying attention to and the three hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand reported Black women who have been impacted by layoffs.

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Speaker 1: Now this was not, of course the stat when your

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Speaker 1: book was out. But how are you making sense of

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Speaker 1: this in the you know, the larger landscape of like

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Speaker 1: the things that you write about in the kind of

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Speaker 1: work that you do.

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Speaker 2: Listen, this is the double tax. So the double tacks says,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have a compounded cost of racism and saxism.

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Speaker 2: And what this means is in the book, there are

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Speaker 2: two chapters that I really want folks to focus on

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Speaker 2: when they're thinking about what's happening right now. With three

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand in counting, by the way, because I was

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Speaker 2: a number I believe back in June or May. Right

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Speaker 2: in counting, there's a double tax in career choice, and

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Speaker 2: there's a double tax in career path. Let me break

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Speaker 2: it down. The double tax in career choice means that

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Speaker 2: black women minority women, women in general are barred from

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Speaker 2: certain career paths, right, and so we see this in

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Speaker 2: the data Among the top ten highest paid career paths

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Speaker 2: as a twenty nineteen you know, white women have proportional representation,

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Speaker 2: mean that their representation is equal to the nationwide share

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Speaker 2: in about three of those careers. Black women, Latino women,

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Speaker 2: Native women zero, right, top highest paying as for white

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Speaker 2: men all ten. It's actually they're over represented in all

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Speaker 2: of those types of career paths. We're talking about physicians,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about engineers, folks in tech, etc. Among the

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Speaker 2: lowest paid career paths, Black women have proportional representation or

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Speaker 2: nationwide share in eight out of the ten. What does

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Speaker 2: this mean? That means that the types of careers that

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Speaker 2: black women tend to fall into not by choice. If

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Speaker 2: I'm being quite honest, right, this is occupational segregation. You're

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Speaker 2: funneled into certain career paths because other career paths are

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Speaker 2: barred from you for racist and sexist reasons. That means

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Speaker 2: that when the economy goes through a crisis, the jobs

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Speaker 2: at organizations, companies, and different types of entities see as

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Speaker 2: expendable oftentimes are these low paying jobs these jobs that

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Speaker 2: lack benefits, these jobs that lack protections, these jobs that

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Speaker 2: don't have unions behind them. And so that means that

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Speaker 2: when they need to offload people from their payroll, they're

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Speaker 2: going to the folks that they are addressing first, the

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Speaker 2: folks who are low paid, the folks who are low wage, right,

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Speaker 2: the folks who lack benefits, and a lot of times

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Speaker 2: those individuals are Black women disproportionately. So if we're even

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Speaker 2: thinking about the types of sectors that tend to have

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Speaker 2: those types of protections around them, you know, public sector

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Speaker 2: definitely has great health insurance, you know that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: But what I want to know here is that what's

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Speaker 2: happening is a targeted effort at laying off the federal workforce.

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Speaker 2: And black women again are overrepresented amongst federal jobs right,

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Speaker 2: as well as local and state jobs within the government.

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Speaker 2: And so once again, if we're thinking about who's seen

401
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Speaker 2: as expendable in the workplace, black women oftentimes are falling

402
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 2: to jobs that people are seen as expendable, and so

403
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Speaker 2: we're the first to be pushed out. The second aspect

404
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 2: of this is the double tax in career path. So

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Speaker 2: there's data that shows that Black women are the least

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Speaker 2: likely to be promoted and the most likely to experience

407
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Speaker 2: turnover within the private sector. We don't have a lot

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Speaker 2: of data on the public sector just yet, but let's

409
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Speaker 2: just use the private sector as an example. What does

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Speaker 2: this mean. This means that if we're already facing barriers

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Speaker 2: during the good times, what happens during the bad times?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: These things just become worse for us. And so what

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Speaker 2: I often tell people is that black women are a

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Speaker 2: very important economic indicator that for some reason and people

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Speaker 2: keep ignoring, right, Like, what happens to us first is

417
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Speaker 2: coming to everyone next. Another way to put this is

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Speaker 2: that we are the shock absorbers of a future economic

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Speaker 2: crisis for everybody else. And so if something is hitting us,

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Speaker 2: you shouldn't turn away and be like, Ah, that's just

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Speaker 2: affecting those minority women over there. You should be paying

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Speaker 2: attention and figuring out, wait, why is that thing coming

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Speaker 2: in that direction? Why are they experiencing that? And the

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Speaker 2: reason I say that is because black economists back in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight said the same thing. They said,

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Speaker 2: if folks were paying attention to black and brown folks,

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00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: they would have seen the two thousand and eight financial

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00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: crisis coming from a mile away. We saw this with

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Speaker 2: COVID as well. At the very beginning of COVID, black

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00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: one's unemployment shot up to seventeen percent, right before everybody

431
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: else started losing their jobs. Why are we waiting right

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Speaker 2: for a nationwide crisis when there's a crisis happening to

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Speaker 2: a part of our nation. And that's how I think

434
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: folks can use the double tax to better understand why

435
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: three hundred thousand Black women are suddenly leaving the labor force.

436
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: And they're not leaving the labor force, they're being pushed out.

437
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, it feels like

438
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: that's related to the stats around black women's entrepreneurship. Right,

439
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: Like a lot of times black women become entrepreneurs because

440
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: of like force, right, Like you need to support yourself

441
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: and your family and so, But then we know entrepreneurship

442
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: is also.

443
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: Not an easy path.

444
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: So how does the double tax show up in entrepreneurship?

445
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: So the double tax shows up an entrepreneurship even in

446
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 2: the way that funding is allocated. So I don't know

447
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: if folks know this, but like venture capital is one

448
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 2: of the most lea like it's the least diverse or

449
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: among the least diverse like fields. Actually, in finance, right,

450
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: folks can get money just because they are attractive white men.

451
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 2: That's the study, by the way, right, Like, if you're

452
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: an attractive white guy, you're a lot more likely to

453
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: get funding from a VC. I think what we see

454
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: from the data, and I'm summarizing here is even amongst

455
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: the funding that's allocated for diverse founders, the majority of

456
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: that funding actually does not go towards women of color.

457
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: It goes to white women, right. And this is actually

458
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: a very important distinction because when folks start saying, well,

459
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: we don't like DEI, we don't like diversity. Oh you

460
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: thought you were targeting black women, you actually are not.

461
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: You're targeting white women most likely, right. So in entrepreneurship,

462
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: we definitely see that. And I would even say, like

463
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: we quoted a story from the New York Times of

464
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: a black woman who owns a hair salon. Right, A

465
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: lot of folks complain about the rising cost of getting

466
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: your hair done. But I think if we actually look

467
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: at the other side of that too, from an entrepreneurial perspective,

468
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: black women are already facing bearers as we just noted

469
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: in the kind of funny they get, the kind of

470
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: even just like getting a building to have your business in,

471
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: people don't trust that you can make the rent right

472
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 2: because they look at your skin color, they look at

473
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: your gender. They say, I don't think this person has

474
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: the financial means to do this. It affects lending, right,

475
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: it affects the kind of interest rate you might get.

476
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: We see this in home ownership, but I imagine that also

477
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: happens in property ownership as well. And so with that

478
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: in mind, she was mentioning that there's higher expectations that

479
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: black entrepreneurship, at least in hair care and other beauty areas,

480
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: have to deal with. And I would imagine that this

481
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 2: is also true just broadly speaking, where as a black

482
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: woman entrepreneur, you're having to work three times as hard

483
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: to get a crumb of return, right, a crumb of return,

484
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: And maybe you can ride the wave of people being

485
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: somewhat interested in black entrepreneurship or black women for a time,

486
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: but as we know, stuff like that can be fleeting, right.

487
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 2: I've mentioned recently that even folks interested in this book,

488
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: I've noticed that, you know, because this book is not

489
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: just exclusively about gender. People are throwing it into a category.

490
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: They're saying, oh, it's about race, and so we'll talk

491
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: about it during Black History Month. We'll talk about it

492
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: when we're talking about black folks, even though we're talking

493
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 2: about women still. So these sort of axes of oppression

494
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: that black women tend to lie in means that we're

495
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: also dealing with what those axes bring about when it

496
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: comes to barriers to entrepreneurship, owning a business, having a

497
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: successful business. And so I got to give a shout

498
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 2: out to Ashley Wisdom. That's my girl. She founded Health

499
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: in her hue. She's done a historic feet by you know,

500
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: raising one million plus for that organization. The fact that

501
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: that's even historic feet in twenty twenty five, that tells

502
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: you that we have a long ways to go and

503
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: how the double tax is showing up even today.

504
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: So something else that you write in your book that

505
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: I think is really important to talk about is pathological productivity.

506
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: So this idea that you have to kind of work

507
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: hard and like that is the way that we kind

508
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: of get a hit is by we're always the one

509
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: volunteering for things and like all of that. Can you

510
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: talk more about what this term means and how this

511
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: actually shows up for us in the workplace.

512
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I think that. So I don't know

513
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: if folks know this, but like according to lean In

514
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 2: and the Women at Workplace Report, for embly one hundred

515
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: men that are promoted to managers, white women are promoted

516
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: like it's like eighty eighty two women, eighty two white

517
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 2: women are promoted, ninety nine Asian women are promoted, right,

518
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: and only fifty four Black women are promoted. How does

519
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: that tie into what doctor George is asked. If you've

520
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: work in the workplace as a black woman, especially the

521
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: corporate workplace, you know that you're probably being asked to

522
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: do twenty five million things that are not in your

523
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: job description, right, and so you're busting your butt to

524
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: satisfy whatever standard is being in implemented in your contexts.

525
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: But the reality is that might not actually be translating

526
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: into whether or not you're seen as a productive member

527
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: of the workplace. And a lot of times this is

528
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: reflected in your performance reviews. So you might get a

529
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: performance review, and this is something we saw with women

530
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: in general, that it's just not actionable. What they're saying

531
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: is more like personality description oh, that person was nice.

532
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: I think we have folks saying like, oh, they were

533
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: described as goofy in the workplace. I don't know what

534
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: goofy got to do with your productivity, Okay, but you

535
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: know this is the kind of stuff that people would

536
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: be receiving as women, and then black women receive the

537
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: same type of feedback, except with a negative twist. Oh

538
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: she was bossy, she was too assertive, she was negative

539
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: or whatever. And this is on top of you doing

540
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: unpaid labor. So not only is the labor that you're

541
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: doing to help the workplace not being rewarded, but then

542
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 2: when the performance reviews come, they start to reflect things

543
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: that aren't even actionable. You don't even know where to improve,

544
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: and you don't know how this is factoring into whether

545
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: or not you're being seen as a productive person within

546
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: the workplace, and if it's factoring into your promotion overall.

547
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: And so I would say that's kind of how that

548
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: pathological productivity shows up for black women in particular. We're

549
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: expected to do twice as much only to receive half

550
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: as much, and at the end of the day, we

551
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: don't even really get credit for the kind of work

552
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: that we're putting forth as reflected by our low promotion

553
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: rates and how we're characterized within the workplace.

554
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: Something we haven't talked about, but I think would be

555
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: important to talk about, is that we know that black

556
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: women are also often like caregivers in our families. Right,

557
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: so not only are we having to show up in

558
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: the workspace but also in our family lives.

559
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: Right.

560
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: It feels like it's more than a double tax there, right,

561
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: Like there's the double tax of being a woman and

562
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 1: leg but also now attacks of maybe taking care of parents,

563
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: taking care of kids. Can you talk about that and

564
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: the impact on our mental health?

565
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: Woh, hold on, sorry that deep side. Listen, listen, So

566
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 2: let me be very candid about something. I'm twenty nine

567
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: years old. You'll see in the book that, like the

568
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: first half, I'm talking a lot about my personal experiences

569
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: because I've lived through those things. But in the latter half,

570
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: I rely a lot more on the women I've encountered

571
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: and the women in my life. Writing the chapters about

572
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: motherhood and caregiving shifted my brain chemistry because I don't

573
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: think people understand how much we rely on our caregivers,

574
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: Folks who are raising kids, folks who are taking care

575
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: of disabled and six family members, folks who are taking

576
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: care of aging parents. I don't think people really understand

577
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: what people are sacrificing to take that role on. I'll

578
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: tell a really quick story. So the very beginning of

579
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: the caregiving chapter, which is titled the Balancing Act, appropriately

580
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: titled that, right, you're balancing a lot of things. It's

581
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: about my mom. My mom is a remarkable woman. And

582
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: you know, my family we immigrated from Ghana. I was

583
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: born in Ghana like for two seconds, and then they

584
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: popped on a plane and we ended up here, right.

585
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: But I remember back in the day, you know, I

586
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: would be sleeping, getting ready, you know, I gotta go

587
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: to school at like eight am. You know, folks had

588
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: alarm clocks. I had my mother out here talking to

589
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: folks very loudly on the phone six am, seven am,

590
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: telling people what to do. And I remember being like,

591
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: I don't understand why she's talking so loud for some

592
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: foremos right, But I also don't understand what she's talking about.

593
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: It wasn't until I got older that I learned she was.

594
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: She's taking care of so many people back at home,

595
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: so many people rely on her. And as my sister

596
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: has gotten older. I've also noticed the same with her

597
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: now she's a mother as well too. So when you

598
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: ask me a question about like how does this affect

599
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: your mental health, what the stories from the women that

600
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: we spoke to revealed is that it is a strain

601
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: to have people relying on you twenty four to seven.

602
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: And I think what people don't understand is that the

603
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: moment women enter any stage of caregiving, whether it's you

604
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: become a mom, you start taking care of a family member,

605
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: or you know someone who's sick or disabled, the expectation

606
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: to take care of everyone never stops. You never get

607
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: a break from it. And I think that that has

608
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: to change. Well, one like the caregiving responsibilities need to

609
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: be shifted to other groups within society. Right there needs

610
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: to be better care infrastructure so that people aren't feeling

611
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: the burden as individuals and as families, but more specifically

612
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: to your mental health. As we're talking about this on

613
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: the platform that is Therapy for Black Girls or Therapy

614
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: for Black Girls, right is I have noticed that like

615
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: feeling like the way of the world is on you,

616
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: it can be such an overwhelming thing. And so in

617
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: that chapter, and this is something that was at last minute.

618
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 2: I remind people to rest right. This is sort of

619
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: the rest is resistance movement, the NAP ministry movement. You

620
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: cannot pour from an empty cup. And one thing that

621
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: I learned from the conversations about caregiving from caregivers, from mothers,

622
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: from folks who are taking care of their aging parents

623
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: is that if you are not careful, the responsibilities of

624
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: caregiving compound. It's not that the first this month of

625
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: caregiving is the same as the second month. It's not

626
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: the second month's the first month plus whatever the second

627
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: month is bringing and so forth. And so you have

628
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: to take time for yourself. You have to establish boundaries.

629
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: You have to say, hey, I need my alone time.

630
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 2: No right, It's a complete sentence. And of course I'm

631
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: speaking from really a naive perspective. I don't know that

632
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 2: process yet. At some point I will be experiencing it.

633
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: But from the folks that we spoke to, from the

634
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: women that we heard from, that was how they kept

635
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: their sanity. And I think doing that in community is

636
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,959
Speaker 2: the number one thing. Knowing that you can be transparent

637
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 2: about how those burdens are affecting your day to day,

638
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: how they're affecting the way that you perceive yourself. That

639
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: also can I think, help improve your mental health as

640
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: you are navigating that stage of your life, and for

641
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: a lot of people that stage of their life. One

642
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: of the last stories that we feature was a seventy

643
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: year old woman called Lena. She was taking care of

644
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: her parents up until their death, and then she recently

645
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 2: turned seventy, right, And so the fact that like, even

646
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 2: in your older age, you're still taking care of people,

647
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: you have to establish those boundaries. You have to make

648
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: sure that rest is a priority for you. And I

649
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: think for Black women this is really hard because it's

650
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: not just caregiving as an expectation within our families and

651
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: within our own communities, but it's like people expect this

652
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: to take care of the world, right, and so like

653
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: we have to be really really picky about where we're

654
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,479
Speaker 2: expending our energy. And I think that that's a hard

655
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: thing to do because we're very generous and we're very giving,

656
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: but I also think that we need to be generous

657
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: and giving to ourselves as well.

658
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, and I would love to hear your

659
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: thoughts on like what it looks like to have these conversations,

660
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: because I think for so many of us, Like, caretaking

661
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: is a cultural expectation and I think one that many

662
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: of us are not mad about, right, Like, I think

663
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: it's in a lot of ways and honor to take

664
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: care of like your elders, like the people in your

665
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: community that need you. But they're like to your point,

666
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: there has to be a balance, right, And it can't

667
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: always be the oldest daughter or the one who has

668
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: been most successful in school, right, Like, what does it

669
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: look like to shift? And I think the young people

670
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: are already shifting some of those conversations, right, So how

671
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: do we shift the expectations around that but still stay

672
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: kind of grounded in culture and you know, kind of

673
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: respectful of the ways that you know, our culture has

674
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: kind of raised us.

675
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, Like that's a question that I'm

676
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: still asking myself. Right. What I've kind of noticed from

677
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: the women in my life who are at that stage

678
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 2: is that they respect the people that they're taken care of,

679
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: but they also establish those boundaries around asking for respect

680
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: at the same time. So it's not just that you know,

681
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: I have an unlimited amount of care to give you

682
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: and on the limited amount of time to give you.

683
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: But it's not you know, I'm going to do my

684
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: very best to take care of you. But in order

685
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: for me to take care of you, I've also got

686
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: to take care of myself, right, And this is actually

687
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: speaking to the larger conversation around care and how I

688
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 2: like to say that we're kind of at a breaking

689
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 2: point where we have the baby boomer generation that's about

690
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: to enter sort of this sixty five plus, and there's

691
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: a lot of them worldwide, right, and we cannot expect

692
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: unpaid caregivers to uphold taking care of this massive group,

693
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: And so we have to ensure that these individuals feel

694
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: like they're being taken care of. And so, like, very

695
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 2: structurally speaking, like pay caregivers, right, people should be getting

696
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: paid to take care of people in their house. If

697
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: we're paying nurses at hospitals and paying home care nurses,

698
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: we can pay folks who are taking care of their

699
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: family members as well. But I think to your point

700
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: about conversations, it's really about you know, do you respect

701
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: me as a human being? Do you respect me as

702
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: a human being that's taking care of you. Are you

703
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: respecting me as a human being who also is deserving

704
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: of care? My care my look different from your care.

705
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 2: But in order for me to really show up for you,

706
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: I've also got to make sure that you know there

707
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: are things that are showing up for me as well,

708
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: and that sometimes might look like me, but I could

709
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: also look like other parts of my life, communities, et cetera,

710
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: that are pouring into me. And so having that open

711
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: and honest conversation it's hard, right. I mean, I'm from Ghana,

712
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: and so like taking care of your elders, like you said,

713
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: is part of the culture. I would say, you know,

714
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: this is true across the entire black diaspora, and I

715
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 2: think that a lot of times too, even then, Black

716
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: women are still being burdened with really unfair care expectations,

717
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 2: and I think we just have to be really intentional,

718
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: that you know, intentional about like taking care of ourselves

719
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: and being honest with people about how we plan to

720
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 2: do that so that they're not sort of surprised when

721
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: we start implementing those things into our life.

722
00:39:49,560 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So one of

723
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: the things I love most about your book is that

724
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: I think it is a very powerful example of like

725
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: sharing people's stories. Right, How do you think we can

726
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: get better at having more open and honest conversations about

727
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: things like financial stress, economic stress, burnout, depression in the

728
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: black women community.

729
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: Ooh. First of all, I really appreciate you affirming me

730
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: throughout the entire interview and saying that you really love

731
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: the book. I really appreciate that. Thank you. It was

732
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 2: a labor of love, and I'm so grateful for the

733
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: team that helped bring this together. It's a really great

734
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: question about these topics are quite taboo, if we're being honest, right,

735
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 2: people don't talk about the costs that women deal with

736
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: day to day cause it's kind of assumed that we

737
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: just kind of take it on the chin. And I

738
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: think that a book like this is a conversation starter

739
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: and so very practically, I think you should get with

740
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: your girlfriends and read this book and have an honest

741
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: conversation about how these different areas of your life, whether

742
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: they apply or not, really sort of shape these conversations

743
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: around stressors that you face either economically, emotionally, or even socially,

744
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: and how you plan to navigate it. I think what's

745
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: really great about a book like this is I'm not

746
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: really big on leaving folks with problems, you know. I

747
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: don't like to create messages and then just leave them

748
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 2: to be cleaned up by somebody else. And so at

749
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 2: the end of every single chapter, we're talking about ways

750
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: to sort of mitigate these costs, to eliminate these costs,

751
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 2: to reduce these costs, because I don't think these costs

752
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: need to exist. I've told folks over the last few

753
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: days that the individual costs that women deal with, especially

754
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: Black women deal with, today, will become societal costs for

755
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 2: everyone else tomorrow. You do not want these costs to

756
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: go unaddressed. And I think as Black women, having a

757
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 2: conversation about what these costs mean for us individually is

758
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: one way we can start mitigating the societal cost that

759
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: are to come. Even if everybody else wants to be

760
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: unprepared for what's coming, will be prepared right. We'll have

761
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: the tools and the communities fortified and ready to go

762
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: so that when these things become societal costs. Hopefully they

763
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 2: don't become, but if let's say they do, we know

764
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: how to deal with them, and perhaps even though as

765
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: an example, how to show other folks how to deal

766
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: with them too, and to overall reduce the costs that

767
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: folks are facing in society. I think also being transparent

768
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: about what you're going through is really important. Right, we're

769
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: on a podcast about therapy therapy for Black girls, and

770
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 2: for me, what I've learned in therapy with my wonderful

771
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: black women therapists is that being honest about where you're

772
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: at is actually really really important to healing in general,

773
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 2: but also to just like living a life that's fuller

774
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 2: and more fulfilling. What's been really good in my life

775
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: is that people have been honest with me about, you know,

776
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 2: where they're at financially, what they're going through economically, socially, psychologically,

777
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: et cetera. And that's helped me be just a better friend.

778
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: I'll say this I haven't said on any podcasts yet,

779
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: but writing this book made me a better human being.

780
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, especially after writing

781
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: the motherhood chapter and the caregiving chapter, the chapter about

782
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: the balancing act and mothering. I had to talk to

783
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: my sister, I had to talk to my mom, I

784
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: had to talk to women in my life about what

785
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: they were going through. And in a lot of these conversations,

786
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: those women revealed things that I didn't previously know right

787
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: by asking them about you know, can you reflect on

788
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: this time of your life, can you reflect on how

789
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: you navigated it? Talking about motherhood completely changed how I

790
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 2: saw my sister's current journey as a mom. I remember

791
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: once talking to her and being like, why about you

792
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: just hiring nanny? As she was like she looked at

793
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: me like I was crazy. She was like, huh, And

794
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I don't understand, you know, what

795
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: the big deal is until I wrote the chapter and

796
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 2: I said, oh my god, why doesn't anybody talk about

797
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: how much a nanny cause, right? Or how much a

798
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: babysitter costs? And even you know, talking to my mom

799
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: about her experiences in the workplace, I didn't know that

800
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: she had faced discrimination right. What I study in my

801
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 2: dissertation right now is, in short, how to make it

802
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: really hard for your boss to be racist but for

803
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: the sake of this current timeline talent acquisition and development

804
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: right and ultimately, learning those stories help me better understand

805
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: their experiences and to see their humanity in a much

806
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: fuller way. And so I think that having these conversations

807
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 2: will help you become a better friend, a better sister,

808
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: a better mother, a better auntie, a better grandmother, a

809
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: better niece, a better daughter, just a better woman to

810
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 2: your fellow woman, and hopefully men listen to this podcast too.

811
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: You'll be able to better understand the women and girls

812
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 2: in your life so that you can show up for

813
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: them in a meaningful way, but also understand how the

814
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: decisions that they're making affect your life as well.

815
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: So Anna, I don't often get to talk to black

816
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 1: women economists, so I feel like I have to take

817
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 1: this opportunity to chat with you. There are so many

818
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: conversations online about like, oh, this thing happened, that's a

819
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: recession indicator. What are people talking about and are there

820
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: any actual recession indicators that you can point to where

821
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: that you want to make sure we put on the

822
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: map during this conversation.

823
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's a great question. If I'm talking

824
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 2: to other economists, what they'll say, well, it's a mixed bag,

825
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: but what many of them will say is the economy

826
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 2: on paper mean like, if we're looking at the numbers,

827
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: things are fine for right now. But there's something called

828
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: a vibe session. This has been coined by Kyla Scanalon,

829
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: and it's this idea that yes, the numbers are reflecting

830
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: a strong economy, but people are feeling economically pressured and

831
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: I would say that if we're going off of what

832
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 2: black economists have long said is a recession indicator, what's

833
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: happening with black and brown communities economically oftentimes is that's

834
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: so raven. You know, we're looking to the future, what's

835
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: about to happen, right, And so I'm looking at black

836
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 2: women leaving the labor force in droves, And I don't know,

837
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: folks know what the labor force means. The labor force

838
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: means that you're unemployed or you're looking for work. So

839
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: you really want a robust labor force because that means

840
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: that you know there's job opportunities in the job market.

841
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: If people stop looking for work and you know they're

842
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: also unemployed, that means that people don't even think that

843
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: they don't even think that the job market has a chance, right, Like,

844
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 2: they're not even looking for jobs to begin with. And

845
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: that's not good. And we kind of saw this reflected

846
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: in the most recent jobs report that resulted in the

847
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 2: firing of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which by the way,

848
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: releases these job numbers every month. They're firing, where we

849
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: saw a decline in the number of jobs added that month.

850
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: I believe it was like seventy three thousand jobs were added.

851
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: Usually the break even point is like closer to eighty

852
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: six thousand. That's like lower than it's been in the past.

853
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: But the break even point is a suggestion that you know,

854
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 2: anything above that that or above means that we got

855
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 2: a strong economy. We're good to go, as you Let's

856
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,959
Speaker 2: just do math. Which number is bigger, right, seventy three

857
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: or eighty six. And that's why that man was a

858
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: little upset, right, because it's like, wait a minute, this

859
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: is indicating that the economy is not strong, et cetera,

860
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 2: et cetera. And so I would say that if you've

861
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 2: been paying attention to black women back in March, you

862
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 2: could have anticipated what the July jobs report was gonna say. Now,

863
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: there's still economists out there saying like there's nothing to

864
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: worry about. Unemployment is still low. But once again, I

865
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: think that even if you have a low unemployment rate,

866
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: a decline in labor force participation, which is what we

867
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: were talking about before with black women leaving the labor force,

868
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: is not good. And so I would say that a

869
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: recession indicator to pay attention to is what's happening with

870
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: black women in the job market. Are the black women

871
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 2: in your community being fired from their job? Are they

872
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: being laid off? Are they looking for jobs still? Because

873
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: if they're not, that means that even the recovery from

874
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: like losing your job is taking some time. If it's

875
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: taking time for black women, you better believe that that

876
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: is coming down the line for everybody else.

877
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate this, no problem. So where can

878
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: we stay connected with you, Ana? Where can we find

879
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: the copy of the book or stay connected to you

880
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: on your website or on social media?

881
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully you'll tune into this podcast. Therapy for Black

882
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: Girls is a wonderful, wonderful platform, and I really encourage

883
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: that everybody continues to stay subscribed and tuned in to

884
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: this podcast and what the platform offers. So thanks again,

885
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: doctor Joy for having me on. I would say, I

886
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: am on the interwebs, so I'm in Blue Sky, which

887
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 2: is kind of like the tamer version of Twitter these days.

888
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 2: At its afronomics. But I'm also on Instagram as well,

889
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 2: at its afronomics. Its afronomics. But folks who want to

890
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: check out the book, just visit annagifty dot com or

891
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: go to your local bookseller. One thing I've been telling

892
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: folks to do is make sure you request this book

893
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: at your local library. Make sure you support a black

894
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,479
Speaker 2: owned bookstore or one own bookstore. These are the ways

895
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: to ensure that the book reaches folks who might not

896
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: get exposure through other means. And so just ensuring that

897
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 2: the book is freely available and available at your local

898
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 2: bookstore will make sure that as many people get their

899
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: hands on it.

900
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: Perfect. And I heard you mentioned dissertation, So it sounds

901
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: like that's the stage of you of grad school you're in.

902
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to let us know

903
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: about anything happening next for you that you'd like us

904
00:49:59,320 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 1: to support.

905
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: Oh, I really appreciate that. Yeah. So, as I mentioned before,

906
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: I'm a PhD student. I'm dissertating right now. For those

907
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: who don't know, a PhD is like a terminal degree,

908
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 2: and so the point of the degree is to essentially

909
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: do your own research and then maybe become an academic

910
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: or something else. So I actually am interested in becoming

911
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: an academic. I think that, you know, the next generation

912
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: needs some good educators, and I feel very called to

913
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: that work. So I think that might be what's next

914
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: for me. But also I feel like public scholarship in

915
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: general is really the ethos of my calling. It's like

916
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: what I believe I've been called to do, and what

917
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 2: that means is, I'm really really interested in democratizing knowledge.

918
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: I just want as many people to know as much

919
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: information that is accurate and reliable as possible so that

920
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,760
Speaker 2: you can make informed decisions about your life and hopefully

921
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: improve your life along their way. So I feel like

922
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 2: that's kind of what's next for me, making sure this

923
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: book hopefully becomes a success. I know that black women

924
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: always show up for black women, so I'm really looking

925
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: forward to seeing a lot of you share that you've

926
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: ordered the book and that this book has touched your

927
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 2: life and also touched the lives of folks in your community.

928
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Anna, and thank you for spending some time

929
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: with us today. We'll make sure to include all of

930
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: your information in the show notes so that people can

931
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: grab their copies and stay connected.

932
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Doctor Joy. Always a pleasure.

933
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Anna was able to join me for

934
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,479
Speaker 1: today's conversation. To learn more about her or to grab

935
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: a copy of her new book, The Double Text, be

936
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls

937
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: dot com slash Session four twenty nine, and don't forget

938
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: to text this episodes to two of your girls right

939
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: now and tell them to check it out. Did you

940
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: know you could leave us a voicemail with your questions

941
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: or suggestions for the podcast. If you have books or

942
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: movies you'd like us to review, our thoughts about topics

943
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: you'd like to hear discussed. Drop us a message at

944
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let

945
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 1: us know what's on your mind. We just might feature

946
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: it on the podcast. Looking for a therapist in your area,

947
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

948
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: slash directory. Don't forget to follow us over on Instagram

949
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and

950
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: join us in our Patreon community at community dot Therapy

951
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elisa Ellis,

952
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.

953
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.

954
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

955
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,