WEBVTT - What's the Best Way to Sit? (And Other Important Questions About Work) 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.519 You're listening to Part Time Genius, a production of Kaleidoscope, 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:12.480 and iHeartRadio. Guess what Will? 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:13.360 What's that? Mango? 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.080 So I had a big writing assignment last week, and 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.279 I was not nearly as productive as I should have been. 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.040 I procrastinated, I got distracted, and I kind of pushed 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.120 off the assignment for way too long. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.120 I like that you're leaving out one key fact that 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.600 you were actually supposed to be on vacation last week. 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.239 I know, but I'd set aside a few hours so 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:36.919 that I could keep some projects on track. And then 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.360 I missed my deadline. So I started doing what I 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.159 always do when i'm behind. I looked up tricks for 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.720 how to work better, and I stumbled into this old 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.159 chestnut about how Victor Hugo used to make sure he 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.199 didn't procrastinate. Basically, whenever he got writer's block, he'd have 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.400 his servant take all his clothes away and leave him 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.280 with only a pen and paper, so we had nothing 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.000 to do but write in the nude, which I guess 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.720 is how he hit all his deadlines. 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.120 And also sounds a little bit extreme if you ask me. 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.199 Yeah, But one thing I've been wondering about is whether 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:11.800 it was the fact that he was stuck in his 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.240 house without clothes that made him write, or whether it 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.880 was actually being nude that put him in the mood 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.680 to do the writing and inspired him. Like Hemingway wrote 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.360 Nude at a standing desk. Ben Franklin famously took airbats 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.040 where you'd wake up early, you know, sit by a 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.880 drafty window and feel invigorated to journal before going back 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.760 to bed for sort of a wonderful sleep. Churchill Agatha 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:36.960 Christie both worked from the back. So there are a 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:37.840 lot of these folks. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.080 Wow. But for all our listeners, just to know you 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:41.880 you are not only working right now, but you are 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.360 fully closed as we record. So I'm thankful for that. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.679 Yeah. Well, you know, I'm too Victorian to work in 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.440 the nude, even in my own house. But hearing those 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.040 facts made me wonder what are the best ways to work? 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.880 So that's what this episode is all about. Let's dive in. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.760 Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.240 Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.359 friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and sitting behind that big booth 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.600 manning the mixing board, doing it like none other and 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.880 actually today he's truly doing it like none other. I 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.600 think he's on a Nordic track. Is that what that is? 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.079 Yeah? I guess some people work from standing desks and 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.320 some people use treadmill dust, but Dylan has decided he's 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:43.880 most productive when he's cross country skiings. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.280 Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know what, there's sometimes I 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.639 question what Dylan's doing, but this actually feels on brand 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.000 for him. It seems to makes sense for him. But anyway, mego. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.160 You and our researcher Mary Phillip Sandy came up with 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.320 the topic for this week's episode, and it's all about 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.240 what are the best ways to work? So let's talk 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:02.600 about that. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.120 Yeah, and today's episode is kind of a jumble of things. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.520 Mary and I were brainstorming big questions we could answer 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.600 for the show, and she was like, there are so 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.960 many little things I don't know, Like I sit all 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.480 day and I don't know what's the best way to sit. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.040 And of course, you know, at the time, I was 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.079 crossed like it on my bed, and you know, I 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.079 had a cramped neck from hunching forward. So of course 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:25.760 that's one of the things I wanted to know. But 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.359 we thought with so many people working from home now, 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.720 it might be helpful to hear about everything from some 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.800 productivity tips to how to sit to how far you 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.680 need to place your laptop screen from your Nordic track 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:39.880 for ultimate comfort. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.520 Glad we're going to be giving that tip. So all right, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:44.160 let's figure out where where do we want to start 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:44.600 here today? 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.000 How about with ergonomics, which is such a clunky and 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.640 weird word. But what do you think when you hear 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:54.160 the word ergonomics. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:56.920 You know, as soon as you said it, I kind 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.720 of pictured those wavy keyboards that people started using in nineties, 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.840 or an office full of yoga ball chairs, like we 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.600 saw so many of these, how quickly these took over 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.160 actually our office for a while back in Mental Fluss. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.280 It was like overnight. It was like an epidemic, Like 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.640 suddenly everyone was either at a standing desk or a 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:17.480 yoga ball and I just kept sitting at a normal 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.600 desk with a swivel chair, just like a rube. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:20.640 But it's embarrassing. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.880 I was thinking about those giant mouse rollerballs that you know, 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:27.880 I don't even know if you remember these, but they 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.719 were like red arcade ball like controllers almost, and they'd 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.159 sit in the middle of something that kind of looked 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.920 like a tiny Tesla truck. But I was also thinking 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.520 about like the first time I'd seen it in my lifetime. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.799 I remember that my dad brought home this Swedish ergonomic 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.360 chair for our computer in the eighties. It had no 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.000 back and you kind of kneel into it, and every 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.240 single kid who came to my house commented on how 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.200 weird it was. But the whole idea was it was 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.120 supposed to make you sit straight and be better for 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.960 your posture. So, you know, obviously ergonomics has been a 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.240 thing in our lifetime, but I actually had no idea 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:01.640 how old the discipline is. 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.960 And because I have no idea, I think you're baiting 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.280 me into asking you this question. But how old are 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:07.120 we talking about here? 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.520 Yeah? I like how you picked off on a queue there. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.799 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we really work well together. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.440 Mary pulled this research for me from the Berkeley School 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.680 of Public Health website, and apparently ergonomics states back to 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.680 four hundred BCE, all the way back to the ancient Greeks, 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.360 so just a little before the nineteen eighties when my 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.120 dad was Swedish kneeling at his tandy or whatever. But 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.760 According to the site quote, archaeologists have found drawings and 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.000 paintings of chairs with contrad backs and hand tools that 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.359 resemble designs we still use today, which you know is 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:42.760 really remarkable. Yeah. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:44.640 I mean, it's funny to think about, like a stone 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.200 bench with an indentation for your butt to be considered ergonomics, 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.320 but I guess it makes sense, right, Like if you're 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.719 gonna sit comfortably, it makes sense to kind of contour 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:53.600 it more to your body. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.000 Yeah, And apparently Hippocrates got into the action as well. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.920 He wrote about how to arrange surgeons tos for optimal 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.440 workflow during surgery. So really, we've been thinking about how 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.799 best to do our work for a very long time, 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.920 but for our stories purposes. The real study of work 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.640 begins in the seventeenth century, and this is when an 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.800 Italian doctor named Bernardino Ramazzini, which you know is a 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:23.279 great name. For the first time, perhaps he begins to 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.440 notice patterns that certain types of work brings certain pains, right, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.200 and he begins looking at why workers are suffering from 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.240 various ailments. He starts by visiting their workplaces, observing how 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.560 they work, and then he does all these interviews to 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.000 understand how their work is affecting their bodies, and this 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.560 is in seventeen hundred. He publishes his observations in a 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.760 book called The Diseases of the Workers. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.479 So if this was seventeen hundred, like, what type of 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:50.640 work is he studying here? 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.160 He studies over one hundred professions and it's everything from 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:59.480 bakers and miller's to fishermen, to stonecutters to glassmakers. He's 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:04.160 also in including athletes and singers. It is surprisingly comprehensive, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.240 and he starts to notice how various violent motions or 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.160 irregular motions, and also waits that these workers are carrying 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.960 daily how that's taking a toll across various classes of workers. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.520 So would he be considered like the father of ergonomics. 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.440 Then he's more considered the father of occupational medicine. And 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.480 his contribution is mostly in linking repetitive work to pains 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.400 and disorders, but it is interesting he also notes the 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.560 mental stresses on people who are doing things like accounting work. 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.040 These people have to get the numbers right to keep 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.160 their jobs, and so there's immense pressure on them. And 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.600 he's also looking at things like environmental conditions, so he 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.440 notices the breathing difficulties that Millers get and the asthma 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.920 that they get from all these powders and things in 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.960 the air. And he's quoted as saying it's far better 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.320 to prevent than to cure, So he's really ahead of 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:55.760 his time. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:00.560 Yeah, no kidding. 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.560 So today's episode of Part Time Genius is brought to 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.920 you by Sale, a new ESOM service app by the 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.119 creators of Nord VPN who if you know the show, 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.360 you know I love and they have got a special 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.920 deal for you. But first, what is an esom? So 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:17.840 let me tell you what I could have used an eSIM. 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.400 This February I was in Goa. I was reporting on 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.360 a new show and I went out to the Boonies 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:26.400 to meet with this aur Vedic doctor. And after the appointment, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.200 I said, hey, can you help me call a taxi? 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.400 And he just laughed, which probably should have been my 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.080 first indication that something was wrong. And he said, just 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.199 walk half a mile down the road and you'll see 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.040 a taxi at some point, which was not comforting. So 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.800 I'm getting no reception, no internet. I walk a half 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.880 mile down the road, still no reception, no internet, and 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.200 I wait and I wait and Finally I see this 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.120 old rickshaw driver who is asleep in his vehicle, and 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.600 I try to make sounds, first lightly, then a little 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.920 louder to get his attention, and finally I do and 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.280 he does not want to drive me home. It took 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.840 me a very, very long time to convince him and 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.680 a lot of begging. But you know what would have 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.600 helped sale. Basically, if you've ever been lost abroad or 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.400 badly needed an Internet connection with no Wi Fi spot 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.040 in sight, you will understand what a difference a local 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.120 SIM card can make. And eSIM provides an Internet connection 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.040 wherever you travel, saves you money on roaming fees, and 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.560 Sale makes it incredibly easy. All you have to do 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.760 is download the Sale app, pick a super affordable plan 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.760 for anyone of over two hundred destinations. My plan for 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.040 India cost under four dollars, and then once you arrive 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.920 in your destination, you just select sale eSIM for data. 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.760 It literally took me two minutes to set up, seriously 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.440 two minutes. Plus you don't need to wait in line 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.959 at the airport to get a local SIM. You won't 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.719 get scammed in India. There are a lot of SIM scammers. 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.560 Plus these are the nord folks we're talking about. So 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.320 se built in ad blocker stops browser ads from loading. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.160 It can also reduce data usage by up to twenty 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:07.520 eight point six percent. 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.320 It is super easy, super convenient. 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.160 All you have to do is download Sale in your 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.560 app store and use our code PTG at checkout to 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:21.120 get an exclusive fifteen percent off your first purchase. Download 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.520 Sale in your app store and use our code PTG 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.280 at checkout to get an exclusive fifteen percent off your 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.360 first purchase. For further details, go to Sale dot com 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:34.679 slash ptg. That's Sale dot com slash PTG. Details are 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:42.000 in the episode description. But to your question about ergonomics, 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.880 the word ergonomics gets coined in the eighteen fifties, and 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.320 this is by a Polish author and it kind of 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.600 means the science of work or laws of work, and 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.320 it isn't really until about one hundred years later that 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.839 it takes on its current meaning of fitting a job 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.679 to a person or a body. But before we get 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.920 into that, I want to talk briefly about the concept 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.280 of business management, which arose in the late eighteen hundreds 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.040 and it is really fascinating to me. So this is 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.400 during the Industrial Revolution, or at least impacted by it 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:14.280 when industrialization becomes synonymous with work and just stay with 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.240 me here because it feels like a tangent, but it's not. 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.400 Industrials were interested in the idea of efficiency, right, but 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.360 it wasn't like they wanted to protect workers from these 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.840 repetitive stress injuries. As businessmen, their goal was really to 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:32.680 extract as much value as possible from workers and kind 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.080 of treating their bodies like machines, making the most of 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.199 their bodies. And one consultant who helps figure out how 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.040 to do this is a guy named Frederick W. Taylor 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.320 who basically believes that workers can always be made to 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.920 produce more and less time with less motion. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.200 Wow, always be made to So he's kind of a 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:51.000 nightmare boss. 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.640 Yeah. His work is basically going to take any remaining 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.880 power out of the worker's hands and place it in 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.400 the hands of the bosses. At the time, they call 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.559 it quote scientific manager, right, that's the term for it, 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.160 and later they refer to this practice as tailorism. But basically, 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.120 these efficiency engineers, as they were called, we're trying to 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.600 figure out the one best way to do every task 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:15.040 the quickest and the way they studied This is really incredible. 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.720 This comes from an article in Jacobin magazine and goes, quote, 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.280 it's hard to overstate how far efficiency engineers went to 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.920 measure and survey of workers' bodies. They use stopwatches, photographed 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.320 and film workers, and tied light bulbs to workers fingers 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.240 in order to trace hand movements across long exposure photographs. 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:39.200 One engineer, Frank Gilbert, disaggregated each finger, shoulder, and foot, 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.560 plotting individual movements in units in the thousandth of a minute. 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.160 So yeah, I mean, the observation is intense, and they're 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.840 collecting immen's data, and they are analyzing every part of 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:52.800 every single mechanical task. 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:54.920 That is wild. And so what do they do with 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:56.680 all this data? 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.600 Basically, they're getting paid to make a company more profitable, right, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.880 so they walk the employees through these studies and point 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.480 out their inefficiencies and show them how to work faster. Basically, 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.040 they fire anyone who refuses or can't keep up. But 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.960 because these are upper class men, they're also trying to 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.280 tamp down any class conflicts or resentments that could arise, 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.760 and they're trying to ease this transition into getting people 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.760 to work harder. So they push for pay bonuses based 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.240 on worker efficiency, and workers are incentivized to work faster, 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.800 and that way the workers are at least a little 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:32.200 happier and managers get more product, which they see as 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:33.240 a win win, I. 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.439 Mean, I guess so. But obviously these bonuses aren't so 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.240 big that anybody's getting rich here, right. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.080 The workers can do a little better, but their bodies 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.000 are going to take a toll for it. And there's 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.600 an interesting side note here that a bunch of the 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.600 more skilled workers start to push back. As the Jacobin 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.960 article points out, quote the diversion experiences of machinists and 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:56.200 shovelers was pretty illustrative. So the shovelers were less organized 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.160 and easier to replace, and they were really pushed to 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.520 the limit by the efficiency experts. One study from the 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.160 time actually showed that they ended up heaving two hundred 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.080 and seventy percent more tonnage than before the consultants arrived. Wow, 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.920 so they're working their tails off. It is brutal and 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:17.199 its backbreaking work. And meanwhile, the machinists actually has some leverage. 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.120 They kind of hold their trade secrets close to them 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.320 and they unionize their response and this ends up protecting 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.280 them because when managers try to control them, they act 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.920 collectively and can better dictate terms. Anyway, this all leads 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:32.040 back to ergonomics. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.520 I'm glad you say that, because I was just about 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:35.000 to ask that. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:40.160 Yeah. So, as tailorism and this mechanization of the human 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.800 body was taking place, workers want to avoid being fatigued 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.680 all the time and they want to protect their health. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.240 So in the nineteen twenties, researchers start making the case 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.920 for more humane work and not burning out your workforce. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.160 There's this conference in Russia, but this movement takes off 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.640 all over and you know, this more humane work is 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:04.360 called ergology, which later becomes ergonomics, which you know later 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.520 translates into offices that are wall to wall with yoga 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:08.080 ball chairs. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.880 Finally we got there. Was that was worth it? Though, Manga. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.400 That was actually very interesting, and I know there's more 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.880 story to get to, but I also know we're talking 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.400 about the best ways to work, and one thing that 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.360 people definitely want to know is some definitive answer on 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.440 how to sit and not destroy their bodies, because you 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.640 hear so much about the damage that it does to 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:28.560 sit for so long. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.240 Yeah, so I'm glad you took this on because I'm 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.160 very curious about this, so tell me. 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.320 Well, one of the first places to go to if 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.920 you're thinking about anything health related is the Mayo Clinic. 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:39.760 So I decided to go to the website and look 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.360 at the guidelines there. Now, before you start working, you'll 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.000 want to pull out a tape measure and possibly a 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.680 protractor if you don't know what a right angle is, 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.960 or if you've got those ready, I'll continue here. One, 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.800 your knees should be about level with the hips when 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.560 you are seated with your thighs parallel to the floor, 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.840 so clearly sitting on a high stool or a bean 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.920 bag is not deal. Two, your hands should be at 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.880 or below elbow level with the wrist straight. Three. If 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.320 your desk has a hard edge, you should pad the 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.280 edge to protect your wrist from the contact stress. So 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.280 this includes laptops, like if you're resting your wrist on 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.840 a hard laptop, you'll want padding there. And for if 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.400 you're using a monitor, that should be no closer to 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:25.360 you than twenty inches and no further away than forty inches, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.360 and you'll want the top of the screen to be 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.880 at or slightly below eye level. Now I have to 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.120 admit when I read many of these things, I violated 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.280 almost every single one of them. 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.560 I also have no idea how far my computer screen 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:39.880 is for me. 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.360 Yeah, on that at air inches, I don't know about you. 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:45.240 Like on a table, I can do it, but air 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:46.920 inches is not my specialty. 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.800 I also feel like I assume it must be like 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.880 twenty to forty inches from my face at all times, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.160 but except when I don't have my glasses on and 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.640 then it's pressed up against my face. Is that distance 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.440 for your eyesight or is it for neckond posture reasons? 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:04.520 Why is that distance so important? 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.480 It actually prevents both eyestrain and next strain. Though, if 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.720 you're looking to protect your eyes, the other thing you're 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.800 supposed to do is follow the twenty twenty twenty rules. 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:16.560 So this is where every twenty minutes, you're supposed to 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.280 take a twenty second break to look at an object 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.000 twenty feet away. This rule was developed by an optometrist 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.880 from California name Jeffrey Anshell, and this was a way 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.960 to help people avoid headaches and eyestrain. But you can 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.640 also close your eyes for twenty seconds and that has 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:33.800 a similar kind of effect. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.040 Twenty seconds doesn't feel like long enough, Like, yeah, that's 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.960 almost teasing my brain into thinking it's taking a nap. 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.880 We've covered angles you should sit at and how far 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.440 your screen should be from your face, but what about 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.080 the whole like sitting standing, treadmill desk argument, Like, what's 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.080 the optimal way to work on that front? 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.760 You know, the ideal seems to be alternating between sitting 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.719 and standing, because sitting for too long or being sedentary 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.240 and increases your risk for a whole host of different diseases, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.879 I mean everything from Parkinson's two strokes, to cancers, to 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.040 diabetes to Alzheimer's. Like it's really as interesting looking at 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.600 the list and terrifying at this list of you know, 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:13.879 sort of tied back to this. 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.720 It's so scary like that sitting for long periods can 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.639 increase your chances of getting six So how much do 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:20.800 I have to alternate? 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.320 For this? You'll need to turn to the International Ergonomics 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.680 and Human Factors Association, which I don't think you knew 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.720 a whole lot about before this episode, and they recommend 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.600 sitting for ten minutes, then standing up for five, and 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.680 then repeating that throughout the day. So yeah, not too bad. 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:38.919 First of all, please don't make any assumptions, because that 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:40.440 is my homepage. I could. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.280 Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have assumed. 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:46.439 But I also don't know how you're supposed to remember 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:48.080 to do that like all the time. Like I feel 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:49.679 like the only way I could remember is if my 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:54.159 desk automatically lifted and lowered like every five and ten minutes. 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.440 It just feels kind of impractical. Plus you've got to 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.000 close your eyes or look twenty feet away every twenty minute, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.800 so like none of those numbers really line up. 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.200 Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean, if you can't 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.080 pull off the ten minutes sitting, five minutes standing routine, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.480 there's an alternative that can help your workflow. You can 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.840 work for twenty minutes, take a two minute active break. 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.320 That's like second best option here. But when you do that, 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.600 you can also close your eyes for the first twenty 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.159 seconds or just naturally look around. But hopefully you're not 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.600 taking this active break and closing your eyes for the 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.160 first twenty seconds, because that seems dangerous as well. 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.400 I also like that you've ranked these, like I guess 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.520 I've got a whole list, right, I'm going to go 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.560 with option too, But is there a third place? The 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.480 truth is like if you're writing or researching, I feel 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.080 like you get in a flow and then you just 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:44.000 forget about the time. 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.680 Yeah, I mean it actually would be good to make 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.719 time for that two minute break, just because it's helpful 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.280 for anyone with a history of diabetes in the family, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.200 and I know you have some in the family as well. 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.199 And according to the site, getting up more frequently can 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:02.359 quote lower your post prandial glucose and insulin levels, which 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.880 means that avoiding sitting for long periods of time can 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.639 actually be an effective way of reducing the risk of 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:08.879 type two diabetes. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.440