1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: Paul mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: want you to know. At the top of the show, 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: there's a very important disclaimer that we need to put 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: here at the very very front. Uh, this is a ghoulish, 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: grizzly episode, and this is an episode that sadly is 13 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: going to have is going to be something that many 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: of our US based conspiracy realists have personally encountered, perhaps 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: with out knowing that they have encountered this, So it's important. 16 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: But be warned if visceral descriptions or not your thing, 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: this might not be the one for you, as as 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: in descriptions of viscera, right not not just like very 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: detailed descriptions, well both both We've talked we've talked about 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: organ donation in the past, and you know when done 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: with consent, informed consent, when done with high standards of safety. 22 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: Donating your organs is one of the most noble acts 23 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: you as an individual can do for literally anyone. You're 24 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: sacrificing part of yourself to give someone else, often a stranger, 25 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: a new lease on life, or to allow them to 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: live some kind of life at all. People can also, 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: upon their death donate their bodies to science. And the 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: hope here would be that this posthumous sacrifice, because it's 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: still a sacrifice, will further research at any number of fields, 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: ultimately in theory, making the world overall a better play. Unfortunately, 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: as we found to our great sorrow, this does not 32 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: always work out the way we would collectively hope. Here 33 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: are the facts. I mean, we have to talk about 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: donating your body to science. Have have you guys ever 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: thought about this or do you have any family member 36 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: who ever considered this? Oh? Yeah, we mentioned it not 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: long ago when we covered the heads that were stolen 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: from that truck back in the day. And I have 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: no personal connection to body donation at least in the 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: way we're gonna be talking about today. Yeah, it was 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: interesting to kind of go through the distinction right of 42 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: being an organ donner versus donating your body to science. 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: And we'll get into some of the minutia of those differences, 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: but we that was kind of my first exposure to 45 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: the fact that those two things are not the same. Yeah, 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: they're very much not the same. And this is actually 47 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: you know, as a guy who tried to donate one 48 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: of his eyes while alive and ran into complications. Uh, 49 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: donating your body to science, it's noble thing. But unfortunately, 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: even on my end, it's something that would be very 51 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: cautious about. Here's why. Here's first, let's tell you how 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: the process is supposed to work. Generally, it goes like this. 53 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: You make the decision while you are still alive. For 54 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: some people, this is simply a matter of their personal 55 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: philosophy or beliefs. For some people it's maybe they have 56 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: a terminal condition and they think science may be able 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: to help other people with my condition if I donate 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: my body to the cause. So you figure out where 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: you want your body to go. There are a lot 60 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: of places. There's not one single like donate your body 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: here outfit. Uh, most of them are going to be 62 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: university associated medical schools, some are private industries or organizations rather, 63 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: and then some are government agencies and UH it's kind 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: of an audition process which might surprise a lot of us. 65 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: You have to fill out a donor and sent form 66 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: well ahead of time, and it's very very it's so 67 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: very important to be on the same page with your 68 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: loved ones. You have to make sure that they know 69 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: about your decision. It needs to be written into your will. 70 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: You should have a will and UH. It's also possible 71 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: for your family to just decide to donate your body 72 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: when you die, whether or not you've talked about it, 73 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons, some are which are quite tragic. 74 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: So if you don't want that, make sure to stay 75 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: on good terms with them, like, you know, leave on 76 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: a good note if you can. Why like they would 77 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: like donate your body to science out of spite. No, 78 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: as we learn from a Reuter's investigation, it's often because 79 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: people don't have enough money even to afford a basic cremation. 80 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: And we're gonna get into it, but they're one of 81 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 1: the most likely reasons that a body would be donated 82 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: is because there's not money available for a funeral service 83 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: and or you know, burial or cremation in the us. Sure, yeah, you'll. 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: So let's say you've decided this, your family is on 85 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: the same page, and they want to help you, in 86 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: theory be part of the greater good. So there will 87 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: be an organization um or hopefully a nonprofit, that will 88 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: screen potential donors while they're still alive. This is a 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: thorough medical exam and it includes you know a little 90 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: bit of your past medical history, questions about illnesses, surgeries, 91 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: you may have had, any IVY drug use, communicable diseases. 92 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: Let's say you set that up and you pass that 93 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: test and they say, okay, you will qualify for this. 94 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: You go on. You live your life to the fullest 95 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: possible extent until you expire. But when you die, there's 96 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: a second test that chosen institution is going to now 97 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: for the second time determine if they'll accept your body. 98 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: That's right, Not everyone gets accepted because these institutions, when 99 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: they agree in that screening while you're alive, they're still 100 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: not legally required to take the cadaver if it doesn't 101 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: meet those standards. And those standards aren't things like age 102 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: or ethnicity or genetic information. They're mainly things that could 103 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: could be a health risk to people who will be 104 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: working with that human tissue later. You know, um, like, 105 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: you're probably not going to get accepted for a science 106 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: tissue donation if you have HIV, some kinds of hepatitis, syphilis, 107 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: kidney failures, bad viral infections that result in isolation, that 108 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And if you were very very overweight 109 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: or in some cases very very underweight, then you may 110 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: also not fit the bill. Um. And that's where we 111 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: run into one of the first problems. Because let's say 112 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: we've all agreed, right, um, we're the average American family, 113 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: which means that a funeral expense is going to be 114 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: a terribly hard bill to pay at one of the 115 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: most vulnerable times of our lives. But what if the 116 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: body of our loved wind gets declined. We have to 117 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: make sure we have back pocket arrangements otherwise we're going 118 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: to find ourselves stranded with a dead body on our 119 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: hands and no real plan for what to do with 120 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: it next. So that's that's the first pitfall. But let's 121 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: let's stay positive for a second. Let's say your body 122 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: is accepted. Okay, So if your body is accepted by 123 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: the institution of your choice, that group then covers the 124 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: costs because this is a value to them clearly, and 125 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: that includes transportation, filing of the death certificate, the cremation 126 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: after use um, and the return of the cremains. UM. 127 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: Some groups, in fact go a step further and require 128 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: that you arrange delivery of the body to them, especially 129 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: if it's another state. UH. And there is in fact 130 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: an entire industry built around the transportation of so when 131 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: next UM, once your body is in UH the particular 132 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: institutions facilities, they use your remains to further whatever research 133 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: or mission they're focused on. And that's going to be 134 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: a big driving factor for the most part UH in 135 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: the individual's choice to donate their body to set institution. 136 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: Like you said, then maybe they have a particular condition 137 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: they think UM using their body for research could help. 138 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: Maybe it's someone who is an alumni of SET institution, 139 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: or it's somebody who you know as a professor there, 140 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: or they just believe in the cause of that particular institution. Yeah, 141 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: but this is this gives you a little bit of 142 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: UM visibility on what will happen to the body. But 143 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: here's another sticky wicket. Most places will not let you 144 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: donate your body for a specific purpose. As a matter 145 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: of fact, the vast majority will not allow you to do. So. 146 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: You can go maybe to UM to a medical outfit 147 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: that is doing Alzheimer's research, for example, and you can say, 148 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: I'll donate this body to this organization because my loved 149 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: win had Alzheimer's, and then you you have a pretty 150 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: good guess that they're going to use this body in 151 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: Alzheimer's research. But these places will never guarantee that they 152 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: want to be able to use that body as needed, 153 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: and that body needs to come with all of its organs, 154 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: Meaning these two activities are mutually exclusive. You cannot donate 155 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: your body to science and participate in an organ donor program. 156 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: Other groups like Science Care, which we'll talk about a 157 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: bit further in today's episode, do allow both organ donation 158 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: and whole body donation. Important note the companies do not 159 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: pay the families involved here that closely, they do not 160 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: pay the families involved because that would be illegal, not 161 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: to mention, in my opinion, a bit ghoulish and probably 162 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: cause a lot of problems, especially in places with skyrocketing inequality. Absolutely, 163 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: and it seems to go hand in hand with the 164 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: idea of you may donate your body to an institution 165 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: where their primary focus of research is something that you 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: personally believe in. But it would be logistically a nightmare 167 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, we guarantee this donation will be used 168 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: for this, because it just doesn't really make sense if 169 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: they need it for something else, and then all of 170 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: a sudden you have angry family members on your hands 171 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: that just yeah, and just to be clear, we're talking 172 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: about these are institutions that do this, that are accredited, 173 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: that are up like the good we were talking about 174 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: the good guys, the positive way for this to happen. Yeah, 175 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: the John Hopkins, you know, like the Yale School of Medicine, 176 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: stuff like that, or maybe even some pharmaceutical companies who 177 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: are working on R and D or funding research. And 178 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: at times there's a lot of overlap. At this point, 179 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: you're wondering, Okay, guys, I get it. How often does 180 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: this actually happen? Well, well, here's the problem. And I 181 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: want to shout out some great work at Reuters, some 182 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: great work at some other other things that I was 183 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: researching this. We have put a lot of time into 184 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: looking into this. And I don't know about you, Matt, 185 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: I don't know about you know, but I was unable 186 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: to find a real accurate statistic on how frequently this 187 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: occurs in the even even when I qualified it, I 188 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: was able to find one thanks to Reuters, which will 189 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 1: get to in a second. But humanity is collectively not 190 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: sure how often this happens every year, much less how 191 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: often has happened in total. No really accurate statistics exist 192 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: because there is no central regulatory body tracking these what 193 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: are called anatomical gifts. That's another euphemism you're run into. UH. 194 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: You'll find some experts estimating that medical schools collectively get 195 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: about ten thousand to fifteen thousand bodies donated per year, 196 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: but that doesn't count all the additional bodies going to 197 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: private end at ease, to corporations, and again to government agencies. UH. 198 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: There was was a number back in two thousand and 199 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: nine from UH, an article written by a professor at 200 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: Harvard Business School who said the number of bodies donated 201 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: in the US to all groups totaled about twenty thousand. 202 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: That sounds like a lot. It's still not enough. Multiple 203 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: institutions continually report an ongoing need for more corpses, and 204 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: this has led to serious problems. As we speak today, 205 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: they're ongoing and their crucial concerns when it comes to 206 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: this grizzly yet perhaps paradoxically important practice, we found that 207 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 1: there is definitely some stuff they don't want you to know. 208 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: What are we talking about. I'll tell you after a 209 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. Let's 210 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: talk about body brokers. How does how does this grieve 211 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: family actually get past this tragedy? What makes them sometimes 212 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: donate to science and after they do that donation, however 213 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: they see it happening. How does it get to those institutions. 214 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: Several times on this show and a couple other ones, 215 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: we've talked about resurrection men back in the day who 216 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: would acquire bodies because there was a bit of an 217 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: issue there where it was legal to experiment on a 218 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: dead body, but it was illegal to you know, go 219 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: to a graveyard and dig up a dead body, or 220 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: to acquire a dead body from the morgue or a 221 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: recently deceased human being. Um, we're entering a weird gray 222 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: area here where we have been for many, many years, 223 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: where there's there's really a price loophole. Honestly, that has 224 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: created an entire new market for dead bodies. And people 225 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,239 Speaker 1: are resurrecting resurrection men just so, Yeah, because the resurrection 226 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: man idea came about due to a odd legal loophole 227 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,119 Speaker 1: um several centuries ago. It was absolutely legal to experiment 228 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: on dead bodies medical researchers, doctors and so on, surgeons anatomists, 229 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: but it was generally illegal to procure them, kind of 230 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: like some of those drug laws that say possession of 231 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: marijuana is okay, but buying it is a big no no. 232 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: So this gray market, slash and legal market of resurrection 233 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: men arose, and they were body snatchers. You can argue, 234 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: just like we did, Matt, that resurrection men have been 235 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: resurrected body brokers who don't like the name body brokers, 236 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: by the way, Uh, they'll they'll prefer the term non 237 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: transplant tissue banks. They buy and sell human body parts 238 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: or entire corpses. And wait, you might be saying, by sell, 239 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: how can they get away with that? Didn't you just 240 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: say this was illegal? Well, here's the thing. In the 241 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: US and several other countries, the organ tram plant trade 242 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: is heavily regulated. In theory shout out to our other 243 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: episode on the Red Market. But you may be surprised 244 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: to learn Uncle Sam does not has never regulated the 245 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: use of human body parts in research, training and so on. 246 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like if you think of a 247 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: human body like a car. It's kind of like you 248 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: you do have to have some paperwork and accountability when 249 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: you're selling certain pieces of the car. But if you 250 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: just sell the whole car, or you just sell these 251 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: pieces that don't qualify, you know, as organs, then do 252 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: what you want. You literally have to have no qualification. 253 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: I guess. I imagine they figured they've already ticked the 254 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: box for that regulation by overseeing the procurement stage, and 255 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: then as long as they go through the right channels 256 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: to get them to the research institutions, then go with God. 257 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: At that point, I'm sure you guys found it as well. 258 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: There's only one state I know of that keeps detailed 259 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: records on the industry, and that is the state of 260 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: New York. They looked at numbers that went from two 261 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: thousand and found that companies doing business in New York, 262 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: not necessarily based there, but doing business there shipped at 263 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: least one hundred thousand body parts across the entire country 264 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: over the course of three years, and that's a weird number, 265 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: especially when you reference it to the idea that um 266 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: only the Harvard or Harvard Professor palaces. Only twenty thousand 267 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: were shipped across the US all in all right, so 268 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: it seems like there's a lot of disturbing variants in 269 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: the estimates. But think about it right now, as McCobb 270 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: as it sounds. Whatever you do, whatever your qualifications are, 271 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: if you happen to have a box of heads or 272 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: a hand of glory and you didn't get it through 273 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: the commission of a crime, you can sell it. You 274 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: can like go online, just start a square space or something. 275 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: I don't think they want that association, but you could 276 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: just start a website and sell this stuff and it's 277 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: absolutely legal. Surely there's some way to to document chain 278 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: of custody. I mean, it's gonna take your word for 279 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: it that you didn't get this hand from the commission 280 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: of a crime. This is a good question. So the 281 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: issue on the table then is that the onus of 282 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: responsibility often falls upon the medical institutions accepting the accepting 283 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: the remains, so they have their own internal standards which 284 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: can vary from one place to the next, such that 285 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: they can say, look, this doesn't seem right to us, Well, 286 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 1: we can't, we can't accept this in good faith. It 287 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: reminds me of the argument you often hear about, like 288 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: campaign donations, where it's like, well, you don't care where 289 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: it came from. That's not our job. But but like 290 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: it is their job in some respect, and it definitely 291 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: is the job of the medical institutions. But it could 292 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: also be an argument they make where everything's even on 293 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: the up and up, just turns out it was actually 294 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: uh from something completely a legitimate Yeah, it's it's passing 295 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: the buck of accountability. Right. There's a lot of not 296 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: my job is in some of these things, especially when 297 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: you get to the non transplant tissue banks or body brokers. 298 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: The Reuter's thing that Matt and I referring to is 299 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: an excellent deep dive series, uh multipart, and we're gonna 300 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: pull from that several times today. One of the first 301 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: things I'd like to pull from there is a quote 302 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: from Angela MacArthur. So this series, this quote was from Seen, 303 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: but the series goes back a few years. Uh. Angela 304 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: MacArthur at the time was the director of the body 305 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: donation program at University of Minnesota Medical School. She was 306 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 1: also once upon a time the chairperson of the state's 307 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: Anatomical Donation Commission, so, in other words, a world class expert. 308 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: And what she had to say was not pretty and 309 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: it is not nuanced. It is a clear statement of 310 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: a problem. She says, quote, the current state of affairs 311 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: is a free for all. We're seeing similar problems to 312 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: what we saw with grave robbers centuries ago. Uh and 313 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: then she continued, I don't know if I can state 314 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: this strongly enough. What they, meaning body brokers are doing 315 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: is profiting from the sale of humans. Wow. Strong there's 316 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: a lot of money to be made. And you know 317 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: there's there's some frankly offensive stuff too about this. When 318 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: you look at the price per body, you know, because 319 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: that's what they're doing. They're putting a price on on 320 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: human remains. And Ben you've mentioned like the body's exhibit 321 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: oftentimes as the providence of those cadavers being sketchy at best. Yeah, 322 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: and that's um the body it's exhibit. Unfortunately, those corpses 323 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: were often likely taken from prisoners who did not have 324 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: informed consent and their family didn't either. But yet, Matt, 325 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: if you want to go into the price of a 326 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: body on a body broker market. Let's let's get into it. Yeah, 327 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: let's let's quickly do that. According to the seventeen investigation 328 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: by Reuter's titled The Body Trade you can find at 329 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: reuters dot com, they found that a body broker or 330 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: a human tissue trader could sell a single human body 331 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: for somewhere between three thousand and five thousand dollars. So 332 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: that's like a whole human body. You could also cut 333 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: that body up and get part price per part, which 334 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: is where you do you get more in totality if 335 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: you're selling individual parts than you would as a whole body, 336 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: you can it's chop shop rules. I would think you would. Yeah, 337 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: I found uh because I was digging in because it 338 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: was hard to find the numbers here. So I also 339 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: looked at the Rutterer stuff and then went to UM 340 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: a source in f D A from one and their 341 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: estimate was a little bit higher, and I think I 342 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: know why. So they said, in general, you're looking at 343 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: around five thousand dollars for a whole body. They said 344 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: prices sometimes top ten thousand dollars because body parts like 345 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: may fit certain specifications, like we want to look at 346 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: this medical condition, and to make it even more ghoulish, 347 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: that's if you sell those parts. Body brokers don't always 348 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: sell the parts. Sometimes they rent it, sometimes they lease 349 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: it and they get it back. Yeah, how is that 350 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: even possible? Well, in that Rutter's article, there's an example 351 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: in of a shipment to a quote Florida Orthopedic Training 352 00:21:54,400 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: seminar and Orthopedic Training seminar than included twenty seven shoulders. Now, 353 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: I can imagine if that training seminar needs just the 354 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: specific shoulder for you know, however many hours that's going 355 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: to be theoretically as grizzly as it is. You could 356 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: then ice put that shoulder back on Ice or those 357 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: twenty seven shoulders, and then ship it back to the company. 358 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: I imagine it's to demonstrate a medical device of some 359 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: kind that could happen to or to train to train 360 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: e m T s for instance, the resuscitation UH. Surgeons 361 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: also surgeons, I think I put this somewhere else in here, 362 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: but surgeons also have um routinely said that three D 363 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: modeling or mannekins or simulations is not like the real thing, 364 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: and that to do their jobs well, they need to 365 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: practice on actual bodies in a way that does not 366 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: risk injuring people while they're you know, earning their surgeon stripes. 367 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: This is um, this is weird because there is clearly 368 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: a need. But oh I, I also need to point 369 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: out that source I mentioned earlier is in f d 370 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: A is the National Funeral Directors Association, and they're they're 371 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: making a lot of moves actually in favor of reining 372 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: in the body broker trade. So kudos to them. But 373 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: so the issue here is that there is a ton 374 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: of money to be made. We talked about it, right, 375 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: especially considering that sometimes body brokers or these banks can 376 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: function as libraries, lending out components of what was once 377 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: a human being. They can make a lot of money, 378 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: but there making it without the informed consent of a 379 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,239 Speaker 1: deceased person's family, often in very misleading ways. And of 380 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: course the deceased person's family is not receiving any compensation 381 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: for this. That would be illegal. But this somehow is. 382 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: And one thing that's important to recognize about the way 383 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: this industry works is it revolves around the ability to 384 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: access a large supply of bodies that are essentially free, 385 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: that have nowhere, nowhere to go, nowhere to rest, and 386 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: what what happens is, uh, these are you know you've 387 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: heard the term healthcare, folks think of the term deathcare. 388 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: That mean that is an umbrella term encompassing every aspect 389 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: of what happens when you have to try to try 390 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: to figure out how to move on with your life, 391 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: try to figure out how to help someone you love 392 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: that has past be put to rest in the manner 393 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: of their choosing and respectfully. But and we'll see this 394 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: through some specific examples. Um, this hits this hits low 395 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: income families really hard. You're desperate. Maybe you've had maybe 396 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: you've had a relative or a parent, or a child 397 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: or sibling who has struggled with chronic medical condition of 398 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: one sort or another all their life. You've paid for 399 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: multiple surgeries, right, You've paid from multiple treatments. And this 400 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: is the US. So it is where the like that 401 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: one of the top causes of bankruptcy as a medical disaster. Right, 402 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: So you have drained whatever resources you could access, and 403 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: unfortunately your loved one has passed away. You cannot afford 404 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: the often unexpectedly high cost of a funeral, more of 405 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: of a cremation. And then someone comes along and they 406 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: say you know you can donate your loved one's body 407 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: to science, will take care of the expenses, and we 408 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: will connect them with someone who will help make the 409 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: world a better place for the generations to come after. 410 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: And then when they're done, when this operation is done, 411 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: we will cremate the remains for you. We will give 412 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: them to you free of charge. And isn't that something 413 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: your loved one would have wanted to do to help 414 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: other people? Are you saying they are like reps for 415 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: these organizations that seek these situations out? Oh yes, yeah, 416 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: And often it will be in the form of just 417 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: a little slip of paper or brochure that ends up 418 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: at an actual funeral home. Not always, but sometimes at 419 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: a funeral home as uh an option see right burial 420 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: cremation or c right. And this this all means that often, 421 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: due to the way health and death are priced in 422 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: the United States. Strange to say it that way, but 423 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: it's not hyperbolic. This means that often families feel they 424 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: have no choice other than accepting the help of a 425 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: body broker. And that's where it leads us to controversy. Corruption, conspiracy, crime, 426 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: Obviously inequality huge part of this, no argument against it, 427 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: but Before we continue, I do think it's important to 428 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: note that not all of these body brokers, these non 429 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: transplant tissue banks, are inherently sinister. This is a thing 430 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: that needs to happen. Donated bodies are an essential role 431 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: in training, education, research. This is why a lot of 432 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: people aren't dead today. To be honest with you, Well, 433 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: I feel like we lead with that for sure. I mean, 434 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: the idea of this profession or this the need for 435 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: these go betweens is not inherently malevolent. Somebody has to 436 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: act as the you know, lays on between the families 437 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: of the departed and where those bodies end up. And 438 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: usually they're just satisfying the wishes of that person. Yeah. Well, 439 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: and and think about the good bends talking about we 440 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top a little bit the cadaver's body parts. 441 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: They're used by medical students all the time. Medical students 442 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: they need human bodies and sometimes just body parts to 443 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: actually study the techniques that they're learning in medical school 444 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: so that you can apply them later. Um, there's I mean, 445 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: there's so many different uses for for a cadaver in 446 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: the medical field that if you did not have them, 447 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: we would be out of look as humans like we 448 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: mentioned surgeons, mentioned paramedics. You shall also talk about how 449 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,959 Speaker 1: people come up with the idea of new surgical instruments. 450 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: You you certainly wouldn't want to be having open heart 451 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: surgery and then be the person who died on the 452 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: table that helped the surgeon figure out, oh, there's a 453 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: better widget for this. You would like for that widget 454 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: to already be there. What it's time for you to 455 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: go under the knife. So this does make sense. It 456 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: teaches us about implants, techniques that could be evolved, new medicines, 457 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: and treatment for disease like serious stuff. So the needs there, 458 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: and we know this practice does produce measurable, significant, very 459 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: positive results for living people. The problem is there is 460 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: so much stuff about this trade that we do not know, 461 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: including people who are experts in studying it, like Ray 462 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: Madeoff as a Boston College law school professor who studies 463 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: the way that the legal system treats the remains of 464 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: dead people. Yeah, and I mean, and if this guy 465 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: is open in the way that we're about to point 466 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: out about what he doesn't know, I mean, I think 467 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: that says a lot. He says, quote, we know very 468 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: little about who is acquiring these bodies and what they 469 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: are doing with them. And then back to the Reuter's 470 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: piece that we've been talking about, a journalist by the 471 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: name of Brian grow He actually tried a little experiment 472 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: where they contacted a broker in Tennessee and after just 473 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: a few emails, they who were able to buy a 474 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: cervical spine and to human heads. He uh yeah, yeah. 475 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: And one of those surgical instruments that or or i 476 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: let's say a class of surgical instruments that was developed 477 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: through the use of bodies and testing on bodies was 478 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: something like the saws that are used in surgeries, surgical saws, 479 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: various types of bone saws, and things like that, specifically 480 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: saws that were designed to cut a human body open 481 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: and cut it up perhaps into parts, or amputate a 482 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: limb or something like that. As part of that Ruyter's investigation, 483 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: they found that those same, uh, those same tools that 484 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: were developed for working on bodies are often too expensive 485 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: for the companies that are being started by body brokers. 486 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: The body broker smaller companies, so they found that they 487 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: had actually been using chainsaws to cut up human bodies 488 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: after they were donated to their companies at least one 489 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: grizzly case. Yeah, and that guy was also renting body 490 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: parts out. Yes. I also want to add, so another 491 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: little piece of further digging I did is you always 492 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: want to try to go to the source of either 493 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: side of an argument. So if you want to see 494 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: people who are championing these tissue banks, you want to 495 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: visit the American Association of Tissue Banks. And they have 496 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: they have they break down the needs that we're describing, 497 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: but they, I would argue, kind of gloss over some 498 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: of the problems. Let's let's go back to this, the 499 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: idea that just if you'r you maybe just a few 500 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: emails away from finding someone who says, yes, I can 501 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: get you a spine, I can get you ahead. How 502 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: many heads do you want? You know what I mean? 503 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: And then you started talking price breaks or whatever. But Grow, 504 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: being a journalist, was horrified and I think heartbroken to 505 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: learn the origin of one of these bodies. The the 506 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: outfit that sold it to Restore Life USA. UH didn't 507 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: know that they were selling this to a reporter. He 508 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: found out the spine came from a young man named 509 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: Cody Saunders who had the struggle that I described earlier. 510 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: He died on his twenty four birthday after a long 511 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: battle with congenital conditions like a hole in his heart, 512 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: longstanding kidney issues. This poor guy had gone through sixty 513 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: six surgeries, more than seventeen hundred rounds of dialysis. And again, 514 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: the US is a lot of things, but it is 515 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: not good at healthcare right Like poverty is a big 516 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: cause of death, especially if you look at prevented a 517 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: medicine in this country. Anyway, even if you're a relatively 518 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: well off family, this kind of medical expense can put 519 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: you in a really tough spot. In the Saunders family 520 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: didn't have the money for burial cremation when Cody passed 521 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: away of a heart attacks, so they thought the course 522 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: for them to help people, and they thought, you know, 523 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: this is what our son would want to was to 524 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: donate his body to this outfit, Restore Life USA, which 525 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: is a for profit organization. The month after he died, 526 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: Restore Life sold cody spine to Reuters for three dollars 527 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: plus shipping. That's all it took. And I always assumed, 528 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: I guess that that it would be much more expensive later. Uh, 529 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: these same reporters would go on to buy those two 530 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: heads from the same place, and they consulted experts and 531 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: they said, okay, look here's what we got. You know 532 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,239 Speaker 1: what I mean, here's what they went to people who 533 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: would be in charge of ethically sourcing human body parts 534 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: for medical institution and two A one everyone they that 535 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: they asked, each individual said this paperwork is crazy, sloppy, 536 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: there's not a good chain of custody. Everything's wrong with this. 537 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if I, in my position at this school, 538 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: or at this university, or at this UH institution, I 539 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: don't know if I could ethically accept this. And that 540 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: is only one example of what we found is is 541 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: a very widespread process. I suggest we pause for a 542 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: moment for word from our sponsors and then dive deeper 543 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: into the dilemmas because there are even more. Unfortunately, this 544 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: is We're going to try to do some lighthearted episodes later, folks, 545 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: and we have returned again. As we said, there are 546 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 1: mission critical problems with the system as it stands today. 547 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: Even a lot of tissue banks will say the same thing. 548 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: They may be for the record talking about their competitors, 549 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: but everybody knows there's a problem. These families are not paid, 550 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: but these for profit bank brokers are definitely making a 551 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: ghoulish amount of cash. One of those sources I referenced earlier, 552 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: the American Association of Tissue Banks to trade organization representing 553 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: these folks UH says the following. When they say, how 554 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: does in a d O that's the acronym they prefer, 555 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 1: a non transplant anatomical donation organization? How do they collect funding? 556 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: Their quote is in order to sustain a mission of 557 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: helping donors and their loved ones fulfill their wishes to 558 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: aid researchers, educators, and clinicians in advancing science of medicine, 559 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: most often at no cost to the donor or his 560 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: or her loved ones. In a d O, s must 561 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: fund their operations by charging a fee for service to 562 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: those who are requesting and being provided non transplant gifts. 563 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: So they're basically saying what we said. They're just trying 564 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: to make it sound a bit more diplomatic, right, Am 565 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: I reading that correctly? Yeah? We canna, that's right. I 566 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: kind of wonder what their balance sheets look like, because 567 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: obviously they're providing value to some of these lower income 568 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: families in exchange for their loved ones by you know, 569 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: offering the cremation and the funeral process and all of 570 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: that stuff to pay for, Like, is that considered the 571 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: cost of doing business? Is that like recouped? Like I 572 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: just be really fascinated to see what their ledgers look like. 573 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: That's if they're actually using a you know, a standard crematorium, right, 574 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: an actual thing that's meant to cremate human bodies. Because 575 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: that's not always the case, because those are expensive as hell, 576 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: and there are other sales burned bodies with a blowtorch. 577 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: What are we talking about here? Back to that Reuter's article, 578 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: they mentioned a couple of instances where bodies were being 579 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: cremated if you call that cremated within medical waste incinerators, 580 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: which is just it's a different it's a different system, 581 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: and I don't know it. I couldn't tell you the difference, 582 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: but but it does probably mean that the cremains are 583 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: not You're right, you're getting some stuff your loved ones 584 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: in part, but probably some other mixings. And there you're 585 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: you're often only getting Yeah, this is why I want 586 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: to say, you're often you're often getting adulterated remains. You 587 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: could compare it to a mass grave at times, uh, 588 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: which I was on the fence about mentioning on air, 589 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: but it's true. Uh, you're also getting only a portion 590 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: of the person's body being cremated and the rest being 591 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: shipped off. This is this is a ghoulish way to 592 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 1: make money for a lot of um bad faith actors. 593 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: They also take a lot of agency away from the 594 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: family of a donor. You know, it is not infrequent 595 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: for body brokers to obtain a corpse through fraudulent means, 596 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: misleading the loved ones and the survivors. There's another story 597 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: I saw multiple places. Uh, Doris Stauffer when she passed away. 598 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: Her family, in particular, her son donated her body to 599 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: science because Doris they thought would be able to help 600 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: with further research into Alzheimer's. And there's a lot of exciting, 601 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: promising research going into Alzheimer's right now. So this makes 602 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: sense and it's been going on for years. So her son, 603 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: Jim Stoffer, contacts an outfit called Biological Resource Center. What 604 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: do we always say about organizations with cartoonishly vague, innocuous names, 605 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: Just watch out, just watch out for him. Uh. Yeah, 606 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: this was a company locally based in Arizona. The story 607 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: takes place in Sunrise, Arizona. Uh, and they brokeer the 608 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 1: donation of human bodies for research. When he contacted them, 609 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: they were on the ground in an hour, dispatching a 610 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: driver to collect the body. So he signs a form 611 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: keep in minds in the depths of grief his mother 612 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: has passed away. Uh, and he authorizes medical research on 613 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: her body. And then importantly he x a specific box 614 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: on this form. It's a boilerplate for that prohibits military 615 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: traffic safety and other quote non medical experiments. Ten days 616 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: later he and his family receiver cremated remains, and then 617 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: later they learned what actually happened. Yeah, So workers at 618 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: b R c UM detached one of Doris Stuffer's hands 619 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: for cremation, as you mentioned, only getting partial remains back UM. 620 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: After sending those ashes back to our son, the company 621 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: sold and shipped the rest of her body to a 622 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: taxpayer funded research project for the U. S. Army. So 623 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: that box that Jim Stouffer ticked clearly either they didn't 624 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: care or it was not legally binding. It was just 625 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: kind of like you know, for optics. Her brain was 626 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: never used for Alzheimer's research. Instead, Stuffer's body became part 627 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: of an army experiment to measure damage caused by roadside bombs. 628 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: She was one of at least twenty other cadavers that 629 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: were used in this same way. I don't know that 630 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: we're we we necessarily know the source of the other bodies. 631 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: Was this all through the same organization unknown? Not necessarily 632 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: It's possible, but it also wouldn't be uncommon for there 633 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: to be multiple contractors or sourcers here. Uh, sourcers, I 634 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: mean not sourcerers. Just really quickly, guys, I didn't realize 635 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: that human remains would be used for what was it, 636 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: quote traffic safety? Uh, like testing crash test dummies. I've 637 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: got a car stuff episode on that. Corpses were used 638 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 1: for a while to test you know, all those old 639 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: car commercials where you see the car hitting the wall. 640 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: They used to until they built crash test dummies, they 641 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: used to just use corpses. Also, I want to take 642 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: out a moment to shout out Projects Sunshine. We did 643 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: an episode that if you would like to learn more 644 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: about the unethical ways in which your government uses human bodies. Uh, 645 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: and not just it's not restricted to the US. Uh. 646 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: And it's not something that happens as a historical footnote. 647 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, they're used with children too. Yes, that was 648 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 1: usually using the body parts of children to test radiation. 649 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: Do we know around what year the testing was done 650 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: there on Doris, but it sounds like it was, you know, 651 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: research for maybe around the Afghanistan or Iraq wars um 652 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: just some imagining roadside bombs where they were very interested 653 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: in that at the time. Let's see, so it was 654 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: twenty I want to say twenty fifteen or so. No, 655 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: I want to say maybe a little before twenty fifteen. 656 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: So maybe the good news is that still for the 657 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: still for family. Did later see justice because there was 658 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: a lawsuit against Biologic Resource Center and it's a biological 659 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: resource center and its owner one Stephen Gore talk about 660 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: nominative determinism. Gore guilty to UH running in a legal 661 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: operation because of the fraud he was committing UH and 662 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: he got he played guilty in twenty fifteen, but he 663 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: was sentenced to probation. Although I think it's hard to 664 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: argue this is a victimless crime. I think it would 665 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: be hard to swallow an argument, but I could imagine 666 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: the argument being made. Yeah, yeah, too true, I mean, 667 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: and it is very difficult to articulate how horrific this 668 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: can be for survivors of these situations brokers as we 669 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: established con turner profit of thousands of dollars for each 670 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: body donated, because their margin is so low, right, and 671 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: because we know a little bit about their profit margin. 672 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: I'm not saying the arguments about being servants of a 673 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: greater good are wrong. I'm not even saying they're insincere, 674 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: but it's a little tougher to believe them, you know 675 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: what I mean. I think you were right to be skeptical. 676 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: And eventually the good news is more and more people 677 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: began to listen to the experts who were saying, this 678 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: is basically the wild West in its terrible way. Something 679 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,760 Speaker 1: has to be done. So politicians began to further understand 680 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,439 Speaker 1: the extent of this problem, and they started to take 681 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,359 Speaker 1: legal action. In the US, we're proud to report just 682 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,479 Speaker 1: last year, uh Congress has brought more transparency and accountability 683 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: to this grizzly industry. Or they're trying to through the 684 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: introduction of something called the Consensual Donation and Research Integrity Act, 685 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: which you could read in full available online. It's not 686 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: a law yet, but it very much should be. And 687 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: it seems to be gathering a lot of support, which 688 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: is positive. Yes, we think about where we were, guys, 689 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: there were there were private companies popping up all over 690 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: the country here in the US that were new body 691 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: brokers with just a name. You start a business. There 692 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: was no regulation really, and you what you needed were 693 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: a couple of freezers, maybe you know, an array of freezers, 694 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: let's say, depending on how many bodies you wanted to 695 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: handle at a time, and at least one cargo van 696 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: or shipping vehicle of some sort. And that's literally all 697 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: you need. The actual product that you're gonna be brokering 698 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: and selling gets donated to you. Right, it's free. Then 699 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: you get to make straight profit off that thing. Uh. 700 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: The and then shipping costs is literally your only other issue. 701 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: It's crazy how much money could be made for very 702 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: little investment upfront. And it, Thank goodness there's some kind 703 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,439 Speaker 1: of regulation happening well on the way. Hopefully it does 704 00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: end up actual regulation. But but fortunately for what I 705 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: would typify as the the larger majority of good guys 706 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: in this scenario, uh, hopefully for decent people. Uh, you'll 707 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: take a little bit of um, a little bit of 708 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:20,359 Speaker 1: reassurance knowing that even the most uh Makavellian politician has 709 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: to understand the voting against the bill like this political suicide, 710 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like how big is the grave? 711 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: Robbie Lobby is the kind of question they'll have back, 712 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,839 Speaker 1: you know, in the back rooms of the campaign office. Well, 713 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: I think one thing we haven't really talked too much 714 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: about is just the fact that for not only is 715 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,240 Speaker 1: there grief involved in people, you know, maybe of lower 716 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: means being taken advantage of when they're at their you know, 717 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: maybe lowest point, but also just the idea of religion 718 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: and what the way a body has handled means for 719 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,760 Speaker 1: individuals religions, and how the reality of what's actually happening 720 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: once people find out or if they ever find out, 721 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: it could absolutely negate these deepest, most you know, sacredly 722 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: held beliefs and and could cause some serious trauma and 723 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: concern with individuals that are worried now maybe their loved 724 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: ones aren't transitioning into the afterlife properly because of the 725 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: way their corpse was handled. Well, you know, it's interesting 726 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: to say that because I had wanted to, I had 727 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: looked into that as well, and a little bit of 728 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: it was cutting for time. But one of one of 729 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: the most amazing things is the way that religions interact 730 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: with the modern day. And there's a pretty there's a 731 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: pretty impressive argument that a lot of religions have made 732 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: about what they see as being a good person. Because 733 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: you might be surprised to find that some religions that 734 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: have very specific requirements for how a body is treated 735 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: after after death or after physical death, I should say, uh, 736 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: they allow for organ donation, they allow for the contribution 737 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,000 Speaker 1: of a greater good, and and the leaders of these 738 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: schools of spiritual thought have spent a great deal of 739 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: time thinking about this. And I commend that decision, you know, 740 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: to to say, like, hey, what is what is more 741 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: noble than than saying I know, I know my heart's 742 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: been through a lot, but I would love if it 743 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: was beating for you. You know, I think that's that's 744 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: pretty impressive. I think you have another career ahead of 745 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: you as a greeting card writer. Ben, Thank you. You know, 746 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,240 Speaker 1: I almost did get a job one time writing for Hallmark, 747 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: but they wanted you to move uh to like Hallmark 748 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,600 Speaker 1: head course, Yeah, I know, I know, right, But that 749 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: was be where everybody worked from home. At this point, 750 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: maybe it's important for us to say that the future 751 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: of the body broker industry, I don't know. It's tough 752 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 1: to predict where it's gonna go, because again, there's a 753 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: genuine need. People who are listening to the show today, 754 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,719 Speaker 1: Some of our fellow conspiracy realists are alive because of 755 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: the research and the discoveries that came from this these practices. 756 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: Uh And honestly, unless something big changes in the United 757 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: States specifically, families often are gonna need some kind of 758 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: financial assistance to bury or cremate their loved ones with 759 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: or ter them with the respect that you know they deserve, 760 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 1: that every human being deserves. So how do we how 761 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,399 Speaker 1: do we ensure those wishes are upheld? How can we 762 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 1: help both the living and the dead have full knowledge 763 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: of what they're agreeing to? I don't know. These aren't 764 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,879 Speaker 1: rhetorical questions. I just I don't know that I don't 765 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: know if anyone knows the answer. Somehow make funerals less expensive? 766 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: Good God, I mean, but it all comes down to 767 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: a free market economy. Like if you're able to set 768 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: up a business that does a service that you are 769 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: paid for then you have a right to ours what 770 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: you want for it. You know, it's hard. It's a 771 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: hard thing to police. I guess that's what I'm getting at, 772 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: unless you may get part of a government entity and 773 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,440 Speaker 1: just regulate the hell out of it. I'll give you 774 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 1: a quote from a dude named Steve Palmer, who, according 775 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: to the Reuter's investigation, is an Arizona mortician who serves 776 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: on that thing you're talking about, Ben, the National Funeral 777 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: Directors Association. It's he serves on their policy board. His 778 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 1: quote is, some funeral home directors are saying cremation isn't 779 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: paying the bills anymore. So let me see if I 780 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: can help people harvest some body parts. Okay, then yeah. 781 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: Check out our episode on the funeral industry as well, 782 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: and thanks to all the thanks to all the people 783 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,799 Speaker 1: in the funeral industry who wrote to us about that 784 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: and gave us an insider peak. Uh. There is gonna 785 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,320 Speaker 1: be one other phrase that you'll hear associated with body brokers. 786 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 1: It describes a different, also at times equally unethical profession. 787 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 1: It is the const apt of getting kickbacks for referring 788 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: clients to specific rehab facilities when they struggle with substance abuse. 789 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: Uh and that is a huge business we talked about 790 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,880 Speaker 1: in the past. I'm trying to I'm trying to find 791 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: an ending for this episode that is something better than 792 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:26,880 Speaker 1: people are terrible. Uh yeah, there we go. Hashtag not 793 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,839 Speaker 1: all people are terrible. Funerals should be less expensive. I 794 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,439 Speaker 1: endorsed this message and this has been endorsed by Matt 795 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: Frederick first of his name for It's been endorsed by 796 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick for President. If you want to find out 797 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,920 Speaker 1: more about our dark money political action campaign to get 798 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 1: our pal Matt elected to the highest office in the land, 799 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,080 Speaker 1: or if you want to give us your thoughts on 800 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: the ethical dilemma of this trade, on the potential for 801 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 1: just heartbreaking corruption and conspiracy versus the potential for enormous 802 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,399 Speaker 1: breakthroughs in medicine. Um. We we'd love to hear from you. 803 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: You can find us, like Noel said, at Matt Frederick 804 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: for President dot com or we adopt we are my 805 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: entire we are for profit presidential campaign. Uh so, and 806 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: our only donor is Illumination Global Unlimited. Don't don't worry 807 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: about that though. It's fine, yes, but if you if 808 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,239 Speaker 1: you don't want to dive with us into the world 809 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,840 Speaker 1: of crooked politics just yet. There are also plenty of 810 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: other places you can find us online. Yep, you can 811 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook. You can find us on Twitter, 812 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,800 Speaker 1: and you can find us on YouTube at the handle 813 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff on Instagram or Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you 814 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,759 Speaker 1: don't want to go on the internet at all, you 815 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: can use a telephone give us a call. 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You can call us any time you wish 825 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 1: one eight three three st d w y t K. 826 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,320 Speaker 1: You'll hear a message telling you you're in the right place. 827 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: You'll have three minutes. Those three minutes are yours, gratis. 828 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,879 Speaker 1: They come from us straight to you. Get weird with them. 829 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,440 Speaker 1: Do whatever you want. Most importantly, let us know if 830 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,839 Speaker 1: we can use your name and or message on air, 831 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,000 Speaker 1: give yourself a cool nickname, tell us what's on your mind, 832 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,799 Speaker 1: and most importantly, do not edit yourself. If you have 833 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 1: a story that is fifteen minutes or so and you 834 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: feel like I got a call all these times you don't. 835 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 1: You can write out the story in full. You can 836 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,839 Speaker 1: send us UH photographs, you can send us links. We 837 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,680 Speaker 1: read every single email we get. I'm actually on Twitter 838 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: writing now. Is asking people earlier this week if they 839 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: like emails or voicemails. Sounds like you like both, and 840 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,839 Speaker 1: we also we also love being able to dive right 841 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: into the rabbit hole on those emails. All you gotta 842 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:12,560 Speaker 1: do if you want to be part of the party 843 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,919 Speaker 1: is UH send us one drop us a good old 844 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:36,840 Speaker 1: fashioned line where we are conspiracy and iHeartRadio dot com 845 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,080 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 846 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 847 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 848 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:46,600 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.