WEBVTT - Rodents and Red Wine with Maria Konnikova 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.316 Bushkin love that you're wearing a T shirt that says Canada, 0:00:24.476 --> 0:00:28.556 just so that we have no ambiguity whatsoever. 0:00:27.676 --> 0:00:31.156 Where are you right now? You in Las Vegas? 0:00:32.236 --> 0:00:34.716 I'm in Vegas right now. Yeah, I just got back 0:00:34.756 --> 0:00:36.956 here two days ago. 0:00:37.276 --> 0:00:40.076 Nice, very nice? Did I tell you? You know that? 0:00:40.156 --> 0:00:43.076 I was in Las Vegas and I had an afternoon 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:47.356 and I sat in this coffee shop and there were 0:00:47.396 --> 0:00:50.356 three people next to me having the most interesting conversation. 0:00:50.916 --> 0:00:53.956 And one of the guys started talking and I realized 0:00:53.996 --> 0:00:57.396 he was talking about you. 0:00:57.476 --> 0:00:57.796 Really. 0:00:58.036 --> 0:01:01.956 Yeah, he was a lawyer of some kind who like, 0:01:02.316 --> 0:01:04.916 was a writer, lawyer or something. I don't know. I 0:01:04.916 --> 0:01:07.396 couldn't figure it out. And I was eavesdropping in a 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:11.476 conversation for like, and it was like the most interesting conversation. 0:01:13.916 --> 0:01:16.396 I love that story. Now you did not tell me, 0:01:17.076 --> 0:01:19.636 and I have no idea who you're talking about. 0:01:20.916 --> 0:01:24.156 Allow me to introduce a new voice to this podcast, 0:01:24.516 --> 0:01:29.636 Maria Kanakhova. In basketball, they call people like Maria Swiss 0:01:29.716 --> 0:01:34.076 army knives, people who do everything. Maria got a PhD 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:36.636 with the famous Walter Michelle, the guy who invented the 0:01:36.636 --> 0:01:39.836 marshmallow test. She's written a bunch of brilliant New York 0:01:39.836 --> 0:01:43.476 Times bestsellers. She decided at one point that she was 0:01:43.476 --> 0:01:47.636 interested in poker, taught herself poker, became a poker champion, 0:01:48.076 --> 0:01:51.116 made some enormous sum of money. She's the kind of 0:01:51.116 --> 0:01:55.316 person that random strangers talk about in coffee shops, which 0:01:55.356 --> 0:02:04.076 is to say, my kind of person. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. 0:02:04.236 --> 0:02:08.076 You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 0:02:08.396 --> 0:02:11.676 and misunderstand, and I have the pleasure in this episode 0:02:11.716 --> 0:02:15.556 to bring you the fabulous Maria Konikova, who has agreed 0:02:15.556 --> 0:02:20.436 to become the first ever Revisionist History amistman, or rather 0:02:20.676 --> 0:02:23.716 honest person. She is joining the show to be the 0:02:23.756 --> 0:02:27.236 advocate for you, dear listener, to call me on my nonsense, 0:02:27.596 --> 0:02:30.276 to be a voice of reason, to participate in the 0:02:30.396 --> 0:02:34.836 kind of whimsical, meandering flights of intellectual fancy that is 0:02:34.916 --> 0:02:41.796 our trademark here at Pushkin Headquarters. So Maria, welcome to 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:45.116 Vision's History. I could think of no one better equipped 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:49.516 to speak truth to the power that is Revision's History. 0:02:49.916 --> 0:02:52.916 Thanks so much for having me on the show, Malcolm. 0:02:53.076 --> 0:02:55.316 I'm very excited about this. You know, maybe you'll change 0:02:55.356 --> 0:02:58.156 my mind maybe I'll change yours, but I think that 0:02:58.236 --> 0:03:02.036 the conversation is going to be very entertaining no matter what. 0:03:02.356 --> 0:03:05.756 Wonderful let's have at it. I am putting in your hands. 0:03:05.836 --> 0:03:06.436 Is that correct? 0:03:08.756 --> 0:03:12.756 Nice putty that's responsive and that talks back? 0:03:13.556 --> 0:03:16.756 Okay, you're driving this train, all right? 0:03:16.836 --> 0:03:22.356 Perfect. So one of the fascinating episodes of this season 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:27.716 of Revisionist History was about the lack of iodine in 0:03:27.756 --> 0:03:30.436 people's diets and how this was discovered and how it 0:03:30.516 --> 0:03:34.916 was actually then addressed and had I actually did not 0:03:35.076 --> 0:03:39.036 know the story at all. It's such a fascinating question. 0:03:39.476 --> 0:03:42.236 You know, how do we think about these things in 0:03:42.276 --> 0:03:44.556 the present day? Would we be able to do something 0:03:44.676 --> 0:03:47.676 like this today, you know, especially like after COVID, after 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:50.636 all of these things like add iodine to their salt 0:03:50.796 --> 0:03:52.596 or their water and see what happens. What do you 0:03:52.596 --> 0:03:54.276 think the response to something like that would be. 0:03:54.636 --> 0:03:58.716 Well, you know, it's interesting that there is a line, 0:03:59.116 --> 0:04:06.316 there's a common line of either complaint or congratulation among 0:04:06.756 --> 0:04:10.556 sciences where they say that experiment could never be done today. 0:04:11.116 --> 0:04:14.996 The Stanford's Prison experiment could never be done today. Then 0:04:15.316 --> 0:04:17.756 the Tuskegee siftless experiment could never be done. You know, 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:20.076 there's a whole long list of things. They look at that, 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:22.996 and they say, and that's because we are much more 0:04:23.036 --> 0:04:29.556 mindful of people's autonomy, much better about obtaining consent. You 0:04:29.636 --> 0:04:31.956 totally today could not go to Akron and dose up 0:04:31.996 --> 0:04:36.636 a bunch of schoolgirls with a ton of eyeein. However, 0:04:37.636 --> 0:04:40.476 my reaction to that argument is always the same, which is, yeah, 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:46.996 but we simultaneously conduct consentless experiments on human beings in 0:04:46.996 --> 0:04:50.676 the present day that are probably way more consequential, and 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:53.036 we don't think twice about it. You know, think about 0:04:53.076 --> 0:04:56.516 the way we have disrupted the lives of I don't 0:04:56.556 --> 0:04:59.476 know children over the last twenty five years, with all 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:03.956 of these new technologies. How's that not a massive experiment 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:06.476 done without the consent of those who were experimented on. 0:05:06.876 --> 0:05:10.636 How is the Facebook algorithm, which you know shows you 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:14.156 only the things that are likely to evoke a deeply 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:18.076 emotional response in you. How's it not an experiment? I mean, 0:05:18.356 --> 0:05:19.916 there's a part of me that just wants to throw 0:05:19.956 --> 0:05:26.316 out my hands and say, you know, efort, well, it's 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:29.756 not even let's not even let's not even bother making 0:05:29.796 --> 0:05:34.196 these distinctions. Once we've conceded that all these experiments can 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:36.716 go on. Let's just declare them experiments and let people 0:05:36.796 --> 0:05:38.316 pick and choose the one they want to be a 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:38.636 part of. 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:42.236 I think there's something to that, especially because you know, 0:05:42.516 --> 0:05:45.516 at least with the iodine, right, it was there was 0:05:45.956 --> 0:05:49.436 scientific evidence for the test, right, There was a reason 0:05:49.516 --> 0:05:51.796 why they did it. There was a huge body of 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:56.916 evidence behind this, and the study was run as a study, 0:05:57.036 --> 0:05:59.516 and so there were scientific controls in place. You know, 0:05:59.556 --> 0:06:03.356 they actually could gather data, whereas with a lot of 0:06:03.356 --> 0:06:06.356 these other things, you know, it becomes a natural experiment, 0:06:06.876 --> 0:06:10.836 which is obviously MESSI has a lot of unintended consequences, 0:06:11.036 --> 0:06:13.636 and I mean there are a lot of different questions there. 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:16.156 I'm actually curious about flipping it around where you have 0:06:16.276 --> 0:06:19.636 something like fluoride, right, which is another additive that's put 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:24.556 in our water. And last year, I don't know if 0:06:24.596 --> 0:06:27.396 you were following this, but in a town in Vermont, 0:06:27.876 --> 0:06:30.676 it turned out that a town official for over a 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:37.116 decade had been lowering fluoride levels below the accepted minimums 0:06:37.156 --> 0:06:40.316 because he thought that it was a government conspiracy. You know, 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:44.236 fluoride in your water bad. And he resigned and it 0:06:44.316 --> 0:06:47.036 was a big outrage, and everyone was outraged that their 0:06:47.076 --> 0:06:53.196 water wasn't being properly fluoridated, that they actually weren't getting 0:06:53.396 --> 0:06:56.596 the numbers that they needed for dental health, cavities, et cetera. 0:06:56.996 --> 0:06:58.956 I just did think that it was such an interesting 0:06:59.156 --> 0:07:02.356 counterpoint because normally it's, oh, don't add anything, right, I 0:07:02.356 --> 0:07:04.476 don't want anything at it that I don't know about. 0:07:04.756 --> 0:07:08.556 I want natural salt, I want natural water. I don't 0:07:08.596 --> 0:07:11.636 want you adding anything, you know, big pharma, big government, 0:07:11.876 --> 0:07:15.356 big big, et cetera. And here the town was actually horrified, 0:07:16.356 --> 0:07:18.196 which I think they should have been. 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:22.036 You know, I'm biased, you know, I think there's good 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:24.636 evidence that adding Florida to water is a good thing, 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:26.836 that adding I had dined to salt is a good thing, 0:07:27.356 --> 0:07:29.636 and that when things are good. 0:07:29.436 --> 0:07:31.876 For our health and we're not going to get them 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:33.836 in any other way, that this is a great way 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:35.876 of doing it. But a lot of people disagree. 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:39.396 Well, I wonder, you know, if that are they responding 0:07:39.436 --> 0:07:42.836 to the Florida They responding to what they see as 0:07:42.956 --> 0:07:46.916 as the official abusing his position, right, you can you 0:07:46.956 --> 0:07:49.196 know it's it's it's maybe it's a bit of both, 0:07:49.396 --> 0:07:52.516 or you know, you could see people who might ordinarily 0:07:53.516 --> 0:07:57.796 be indifferent to fluoride just getting pissed off over this issue. 0:07:57.996 --> 0:07:59.916 This guy's like, you're not allowed to do that, sir. 0:08:02.476 --> 0:08:05.196 Hold on, hold on, it's time for a short break. 0:08:05.476 --> 0:08:07.996 When we come back, we'll talk more about how salt 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:12.476 and revision is history are changing lives, and also the 0:08:12.516 --> 0:08:24.436 infamous Minnesota starvation study. 0:08:25.196 --> 0:08:28.516 So let's read a letter about someone from someone who 0:08:28.596 --> 0:08:30.596 I actually I love this letter. I just saw it 0:08:30.676 --> 0:08:36.036 today and it is a very positive take on additions 0:08:36.076 --> 0:08:38.436 to food and someone who says that, you know, the 0:08:38.436 --> 0:08:41.756 Salt episode actually really changed their life. So this is 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:45.796 from Mary P. And she writes that it was a crazy, 0:08:45.836 --> 0:08:49.156 awesome coincidence that I was listening to this episode around 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:52.276 the same time my doctor felt a nodule on my thyroid. 0:08:52.716 --> 0:08:54.956 He told me to go get an ultrasound, and my 0:08:55.076 --> 0:08:58.556 thyroid and nodule both were large enough and suspicious enough 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:01.716 that it was recommended automatically that I get a biopsy. 0:09:02.436 --> 0:09:05.596 So she went for her first biopsy and the results 0:09:05.596 --> 0:09:10.116 came back in conclusive. And I'm going to continue reading 0:09:10.116 --> 0:09:13.836 her letter. They sent another side for genetic texting. Meanwhile, 0:09:13.876 --> 0:09:16.956 I bought some iodized salt and started cooking with it. 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:20.236 I had switched to kosher salt and other fancy salts 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:22.676 over the past few years, and I'm an avid at 0:09:22.676 --> 0:09:26.196 home cook. We also live in the Midwest. I used 0:09:26.236 --> 0:09:29.676 iodized salt in moderation, of course, and thought nothing more 0:09:29.716 --> 0:09:32.676 of it. Well, I went back for my biopsy and 0:09:32.716 --> 0:09:36.196 they took new ultrasound images of my thyroid. This was 0:09:36.236 --> 0:09:39.596 about two to three months after my original ultrasounds. In biopsies, 0:09:40.116 --> 0:09:44.036 the ultrasound tech was asking me many questions and seemed confused, 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:47.116 but kept to himself. The doctor came in and told 0:09:47.116 --> 0:09:51.316 me to sit up. My nodules and thyroids had all shrunk. 0:09:52.076 --> 0:09:56.556 My once once sentime to nodule was now around five millimeters. 0:09:57.036 --> 0:09:59.756 He had no reason to biopsy because there was nothing 0:09:59.836 --> 0:10:04.436 of concern. In fact, he would not biopsy it, no surgery, 0:10:04.876 --> 0:10:08.356 just a follow up scan in a year Hallalujah. I 0:10:08.436 --> 0:10:10.916 told him my theory about the iodine and he said 0:10:10.916 --> 0:10:14.316 that very well could have been what shrunk everything. I 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:16.556 asked if the cancer could be in there, just smaller. 0:10:16.916 --> 0:10:18.796 He scoffed at me and said no. 0:10:19.876 --> 0:10:22.476 What a great letter, right, Wow, for all of those 0:10:22.556 --> 0:10:26.476 who doubt the healing power of Revision's history. I present 0:10:26.596 --> 0:10:30.116 you this letter. We don't we don't just we don't 0:10:30.196 --> 0:10:33.076 just rile up our listeners. We save lives. This is 0:10:34.316 --> 0:10:37.996 a resounding endorsement of years of Revision's history. 0:10:38.076 --> 0:10:41.076 And those types of coincidences are great. Right, that you 0:10:41.196 --> 0:10:44.996 hear something and it actually has such an impact that 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:47.316 would have been a life changing thing for her to 0:10:47.436 --> 0:10:50.316 have no thyroid function, half her thyroid function for the 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:51.676 rest of our life, that's a huge thing. 0:10:51.876 --> 0:10:54.956 Yeah, you know, it's a reminder. This is one of 0:10:55.036 --> 0:10:59.756 these weird things, like one hundred years ago, what she's 0:10:59.796 --> 0:11:03.516 describing was commonplace. In fact, this is a little little 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:05.396 fact in that episode that I can never get over 0:11:05.436 --> 0:11:07.756 my head is if you went to parts of the 0:11:07.796 --> 0:11:10.796 world that were iodine to fish and some extraordinarily high 0:11:10.836 --> 0:11:15.236 percentage of the population had these massive goiters on their neck, 0:11:15.436 --> 0:11:18.156 and like that was just part of the part of 0:11:18.196 --> 0:11:20.356 the experience of going to the Swiss Alps, or part 0:11:20.356 --> 0:11:23.516 of the experience of going to somewhere around the Great 0:11:23.596 --> 0:11:26.596 Lakes was you'd walk into a small town and you 0:11:26.636 --> 0:11:30.956 know whatever, quote of the people had big grapefruit sized 0:11:32.276 --> 0:11:35.076 masses on their necks. It's just so strange. 0:11:35.876 --> 0:11:39.956 It's crazy how little we still know about nutrition. Right. 0:11:40.076 --> 0:11:42.516 Nutrition is complicated, and I think that's one of the 0:11:42.516 --> 0:11:45.836 reasons why people still have, you know, so many questions, 0:11:45.876 --> 0:11:48.396 so many issues, why we go back and forth with 0:11:48.476 --> 0:11:51.596 nutritional advice, because the body is a complex thing, right, 0:11:51.596 --> 0:11:55.796 It's a complex machine, and it's so it's very difficult 0:11:55.916 --> 0:11:58.636 oftentimes to know like this is the recommendation and it 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:00.676 will always be the recommendation. 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:02.196 And also, you know, it's hard. This is sort of 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:06.076 what brings us to the miss starvation experiment, which I'm 0:12:06.076 --> 0:12:07.916 sure we're going to talk about. But one of the 0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:11.836 big impetuses for that is that one of the reasons 0:12:11.876 --> 0:12:14.796 we know so little about nutrition is that it's impossible 0:12:14.836 --> 0:12:18.516 to test hypotheses about nutrition, because how do you do 0:12:18.676 --> 0:12:21.756 it right, Like, if you think about something as simple 0:12:21.796 --> 0:12:30.556 as does drinking alcohol harm or help your health? Right, 0:12:31.716 --> 0:12:33.916 that's a question that's been irrelevant for as long as 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:36.876 human beings have drunk alcohol, So thousands and thousands and 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:40.116 thousands of years, we're still arguing about that. And the 0:12:40.116 --> 0:12:42.756 reason we're still arguing about it is it's virtually impossible 0:12:42.796 --> 0:12:46.836 to design a study which would satisfactorily answer that question. 0:12:47.196 --> 0:12:49.916 So there happens that which say people who drink wine 0:12:49.916 --> 0:12:55.036 and moderation seem to live long, healthy lives. But you know, 0:12:55.316 --> 0:12:58.196 the problem is that people who drink wine in moderation 0:12:58.316 --> 0:13:04.036 are people who otherwise live moderate, healthy lives. Right, They're like, 0:13:04.676 --> 0:13:08.636 you know, they're villagers in the south of Italy who 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:11.676 are getting in enormous amount of exercise and living in 0:13:11.716 --> 0:13:14.716 bucolics surroundings. So you just don't know is it is. 0:13:14.836 --> 0:13:17.676 Are are they living long, happy lives in spite of 0:13:17.716 --> 0:13:21.836 their one consumption or because of it? Right simontanoing you 0:13:21.836 --> 0:13:24.676 know you see these so you can read. It's just 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:26.796 incredibly I just read read the other day, like there's 0:13:26.836 --> 0:13:29.916 a new line of thinking which says, you know, all 0:13:29.996 --> 0:13:32.556 alcohol is basically like really bad for you and should 0:13:32.596 --> 0:13:33.076 be avoided. 0:13:33.356 --> 0:13:34.236 I saw that. 0:13:34.556 --> 0:13:36.156 I have no idea what to make of that, Like, 0:13:36.316 --> 0:13:38.196 I don't even know how do they manage that conclusion. 0:13:38.436 --> 0:13:40.756 It's just that that idea that we could be in 0:13:40.876 --> 0:13:44.516 twenty twenty three and still being capable of answering these 0:13:44.636 --> 0:13:47.076 questions with any degree of accuracy is fascinating to me. 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:50.076 Yeah, it's totally crazy. It's so funny that you mentioned 0:13:50.076 --> 0:13:52.636 red wine, which is you know, or alcohol in general. 0:13:53.036 --> 0:13:56.476 The first one of the first studies I ever worked 0:13:56.476 --> 0:13:59.476 on as a journalist who who kind of is interested 0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:02.956 in these questions forever ago, was on resveratrol when it 0:14:02.996 --> 0:14:05.596 first came out, like the data that, oh my god, 0:14:05.636 --> 0:14:08.836 res vitrol makes you live longer, and everyone was saying, great, 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:12.156 red wine, it's amazing. Then a few years later we 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:15.516 find out that the quantity of versviatrol you need is 0:14:15.676 --> 0:14:17.876 just so much higher than you would ever get. And 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:20.356 it goes back and forth, and I've seen that one 0:14:20.476 --> 0:14:25.356 question just go in circles for you know, almost twenty 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:29.036 years now, and we we just have no idea. 0:14:29.076 --> 0:14:31.276 Do you remember was it were they Were they getting 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:33.076 rats large doses of. 0:14:33.316 --> 0:14:36.396 Yes, Oh, that's the thing, exactly, That was exactly it. 0:14:36.396 --> 0:14:38.996 It was rodents, rodence, and red wine. 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:40.676 So the only the only thing we can say for 0:14:40.756 --> 0:14:44.276 certain is that within the rat population, those who enjoy 0:14:44.796 --> 0:14:46.916 a good bottle of wine every night are going to 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:47.836 live a little longer. 0:14:48.556 --> 0:14:50.396 So I think that this is a good a good 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:53.596 segue point. You know, people who were not drinking any 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:56.796 wine were taking part in the starvation study, that was 0:14:56.836 --> 0:15:00.636 part of this season of revisionist history. So I mean, 0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:04.916 first of all that study, let's just kind of recap 0:15:04.956 --> 0:15:09.956 it very quickly. I mean we're talking actual starvation, like 0:15:10.116 --> 0:15:13.756 the number of calories that these men. So it was 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:20.316 all men. It was all young, relatively healthy men who were, 0:15:20.876 --> 0:15:23.436 for one reason or another, not in the military, not 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:27.796 serving abroad during World War two, and they were all 0:15:28.556 --> 0:15:32.716 brought to this place to try to control because as 0:15:32.756 --> 0:15:35.836 we've just talked about, it's really difficult to control food intake, 0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:38.356 to try to control it as much as possible, to 0:15:38.436 --> 0:15:40.876 try to do their part for the war effort to 0:15:40.916 --> 0:15:44.636 see how starvation affects the body. Is that a fair summar. 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:49.116 Race, Yes, exactly, because you don't already had The impetus 0:15:49.236 --> 0:15:52.076 was this was in the middle of the war, and 0:15:52.076 --> 0:15:54.516 the feeling was that by the end of the war 0:15:54.796 --> 0:15:56.956 one of the biggest problems the world was going to 0:15:56.996 --> 0:16:01.036 face was that millions of people around the world had 0:16:01.076 --> 0:16:05.996 suffered prolonged malnutrition throughout the conflict, and we didn't know 0:16:06.036 --> 0:16:08.796 how to help them. We honestly had no idea if 0:16:08.836 --> 0:16:13.116 someone has been malnourished for a year and a half, 0:16:13.476 --> 0:16:15.476 what is the best way to nurse them back to 0:16:15.516 --> 0:16:19.636 health and literally we hit people. At the time didn't 0:16:19.636 --> 0:16:21.796 have the size clue, right, So they were trying to 0:16:21.796 --> 0:16:26.476 answer that question with some at least get some information 0:16:26.556 --> 0:16:29.276 about that. So there was the stakes here were huge. 0:16:29.756 --> 0:16:32.516 I mean, that's what gives the study, it's kind of 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:34.876 moral force. 0:16:35.276 --> 0:16:38.556 So that's an interesting question, right, does the study have 0:16:38.676 --> 0:16:41.596 the necessary moral force to do something like this, because 0:16:41.636 --> 0:16:44.036 when back in the day, right back when this study 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:47.356 was done World War Two, we didn't have the sort 0:16:47.436 --> 0:16:50.236 of reviews on studies that we have today. So these 0:16:50.316 --> 0:16:52.716 days you need to go through an i RB, which 0:16:52.796 --> 0:16:56.196 is an institutional review board when you're doing any sort 0:16:56.236 --> 0:17:00.196 of human research, and you need to have every single 0:17:00.236 --> 0:17:05.796 subject give informed consent. And this is crucial. The benefits 0:17:05.836 --> 0:17:10.276 of this specific study have to outweigh and potential harm 0:17:10.716 --> 0:17:15.556 to the participants in the study. And so to me, 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:19.996 you know, when I listened to kind of the details 0:17:19.996 --> 0:17:23.116 of the starvation experiment, I knew that it existed, but 0:17:23.156 --> 0:17:26.196 I actually didn't I'd never actually kind of gone deep 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:29.396 into it. This was the most I'd learned about it 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:32.396 was from you. And as I was listening, I was 0:17:32.436 --> 0:17:37.516 trying to think, you know, first of all, benefits versus harm. 0:17:37.916 --> 0:17:40.676 You know, how do we think about that? And I 0:17:40.676 --> 0:17:43.276 think that's actually changed over the years. But the second 0:17:43.316 --> 0:17:46.156 part of it is how do you actually give informed 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:49.836 consent of all the potential downsides to something like this 0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:54.796 when you're researching something where you don't actually know what 0:17:54.876 --> 0:17:56.316 the potential downsides are. 0:17:57.476 --> 0:18:03.116 Well, it's like spaceflight. You're sending an astronaut to the moon. 0:18:04.116 --> 0:18:07.476 Presumably you pull the astronaut aside beforehand and you say 0:18:08.476 --> 0:18:12.036 the benefit year is mankind will be able to say 0:18:12.036 --> 0:18:15.116 we went to the moon. But you know, in that situation, 0:18:15.996 --> 0:18:19.156 the first astronaut in space, we don't know what it's 0:18:19.236 --> 0:18:22.636 like to be out for a couple weeks in zero gravity. 0:18:22.916 --> 0:18:25.316 So I don't know how do they do consent. I 0:18:25.316 --> 0:18:29.796 guess they said, you're taking a risk of unknown quantity, 0:18:30.476 --> 0:18:32.836 you might be damaged by what you're doing. Are you 0:18:32.876 --> 0:18:35.116 fine with that? And I think the answer they were 0:18:35.156 --> 0:18:37.236 fine with it is that many of those astronauts came 0:18:37.236 --> 0:18:39.996 out of the military, and so they were used to 0:18:41.156 --> 0:18:46.556 the idea that they were called to do something on 0:18:46.636 --> 0:18:50.676 behalf of their country, which carried with it a significant 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:52.756 risk of illness and death. 0:18:53.116 --> 0:18:55.716 I think That's an interesting example, but it's not a 0:18:55.996 --> 0:18:59.116 complete analogy, because this was their profession, right, this was 0:18:59.116 --> 0:19:01.716 their career, this is what they had signed up for. 0:19:01.836 --> 0:19:05.236 They became astronauts with the knowledge that they would hopefully 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:07.956 be able to go into space one day. Whereas these 0:19:07.956 --> 0:19:11.596 study participants were just ordinary men who were called upon 0:19:11.796 --> 0:19:14.956 by their patriotic feelings and said, you know, do you 0:19:14.996 --> 0:19:17.396 want to do your patriotic duty. That's a lot of pressure, 0:19:17.396 --> 0:19:19.796 and that's not your life. This is not something that's 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:23.276 your career. You're being asked to do something that's just 0:19:23.396 --> 0:19:24.716 totally out of the ordinary. 0:19:24.836 --> 0:19:29.716 Wait, you are you? Are you a Minnesota's starvation experiment skeptic? 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:32.276 Do you not think it should have been done? No? 0:19:32.596 --> 0:19:35.236 I'm someone who wants to push back though, and to 0:19:35.916 --> 0:19:41.156 question how it was done and whether they could potentially 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:43.756 have ever given and formed consent to something like this, 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:47.556 especially given what we know now about the long, longitudinal, 0:19:47.596 --> 0:19:51.956 long term effects about starvation. Back then, the term epigenetic 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:54.956 I don't think even existed. People did not know kind 0:19:54.956 --> 0:19:59.076 of what the interaction of genes and environment is. Today, 0:19:59.276 --> 0:20:05.596 we actually know that starvation has lifelong consequences. They actually 0:20:05.916 --> 0:20:10.396 change the methylation patterns of your of your genes, of 0:20:10.436 --> 0:20:13.676 your genome, and that there's actually a lot of damage 0:20:13.676 --> 0:20:16.036 that is going to be done for your entire life. 0:20:16.116 --> 0:20:18.196 And the funny thing is a lot of the data, 0:20:18.276 --> 0:20:20.596 the best data that we have on this didn't come 0:20:20.636 --> 0:20:24.316 from the starvation experiment, but actually happened from a natural 0:20:24.356 --> 0:20:27.196 experiment that came at the exact same time, more or 0:20:27.316 --> 0:20:35.036 less contemporaneous, which was basically the Dutch hunger winter. It 0:20:35.236 --> 0:20:38.396 was also during World War Two there was a huge 0:20:38.556 --> 0:20:43.076 famine in the Netherlands because there was a blockade by 0:20:43.076 --> 0:20:47.196 the Nazis and thousands of people died. I think something 0:20:47.276 --> 0:20:51.196 like twenty thousand people ended up dying. But at the 0:20:51.236 --> 0:20:52.916 same time, there were a bunch of women who were 0:20:52.916 --> 0:20:57.356 pregnant and doctors were taking all of the measurements that 0:20:57.396 --> 0:21:01.156 you would normally take during pregnancy, but these women happened 0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:04.636 to be starving, and then they ended up following the 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:09.796 women and the babies for their lives and actually got 0:21:10.076 --> 0:21:12.916 an amazing amount of data on what starvation does to 0:21:12.956 --> 0:21:13.356 the body. 0:21:14.076 --> 0:21:14.796 What does it do? 0:21:15.476 --> 0:21:18.756 Oh well, we're still finding out. There are lots of 0:21:18.836 --> 0:21:21.316 things that end up happening later in life. You're more 0:21:21.356 --> 0:21:23.956 prone to gain weight because your body is prepared for 0:21:24.036 --> 0:21:29.236 starvation and has been prepared for from in utero. It 0:21:29.476 --> 0:21:33.756 also ends up, you know, affecting your the way that 0:21:34.476 --> 0:21:36.876 your kids are going to develop. So if you were, 0:21:37.116 --> 0:21:42.116 I guess, a fetus during during this time, then by 0:21:42.156 --> 0:21:45.596 the time that you're you're an adult, when you have 0:21:45.676 --> 0:21:47.676 your own kids, you're actually going to pass a lot 0:21:47.676 --> 0:21:53.196 of these epigenetic changes further on to them. They are 0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:59.356 also going to be effects on how you're going to 0:21:59.556 --> 0:22:02.956 just think and do in life. It turns out that 0:22:03.716 --> 0:22:07.916 there are labor market effects, hospitalization effects, so you know, 0:22:08.276 --> 0:22:11.716 it actually puts you down a notch. But this is 0:22:11.756 --> 0:22:14.356 once again we're talking about the people who were who 0:22:14.356 --> 0:22:16.516 were fetuses during this time, which is very different from 0:22:16.516 --> 0:22:19.356 the starvation study, but it ends up having a lot 0:22:19.396 --> 0:22:22.556 of downstream effects, and those studies are still being done. 0:22:22.796 --> 0:22:25.396 So there are you know, there's a new paper at 0:22:25.476 --> 0:22:31.356 least once every few years using this cohort which shows 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:34.156 that you know, you didn't there are lots of things 0:22:34.196 --> 0:22:36.196 that you didn't know you were signing up for. If 0:22:36.236 --> 0:22:38.116 you thought that this was just going to be an 0:22:38.396 --> 0:22:41.036 easy you know, I starve myself completely and then I'm 0:22:41.076 --> 0:22:45.356 all better and this will never actually follow me throughout life. 0:22:45.556 --> 0:22:47.836 And it's interesting to me that I think some of 0:22:47.876 --> 0:22:50.476 our best data comes from a natural experiment, as opposed 0:22:50.516 --> 0:22:55.356 to something where a bunch of men said, okay, starve 0:22:55.396 --> 0:22:56.516 me and let's see what happens. 0:22:56.996 --> 0:22:59.356 So imagine that we were doing a version of the 0:22:59.396 --> 0:23:06.076 Dutch starvation thing involving pregnant women. But it was an experiment, right. 0:23:07.476 --> 0:23:10.356 All right, magic wandftly measure. 0:23:10.956 --> 0:23:13.876 And what we learned from that is that actually starving 0:23:13.876 --> 0:23:19.876 people when they're pregnant has incredible as unanticipated long term 0:23:19.916 --> 0:23:22.156 consequences not just for the mother but for the child 0:23:22.676 --> 0:23:27.356 and even maybe for the child's children child. 0:23:27.956 --> 0:23:29.316 So absolutely so. 0:23:29.356 --> 0:23:32.076 In other words, and we had no idea of this before. 0:23:32.156 --> 0:23:34.996 So this is a kind of like, this is a 0:23:35.276 --> 0:23:40.556 this is a earth shattering, huge bit of understanding about 0:23:41.196 --> 0:23:47.236 human beings. Why wouldn't this be an argument. Why wouldn't 0:23:47.236 --> 0:23:50.156