1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,316 Speaker 1: Bushkin love that you're wearing a T shirt that says Canada, 2 00:00:24,476 --> 00:00:28,556 Speaker 1: just so that we have no ambiguity whatsoever. 3 00:00:27,676 --> 00:00:31,156 Speaker 2: Where are you right now? You in Las Vegas? 4 00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:34,716 Speaker 1: I'm in Vegas right now. Yeah, I just got back 5 00:00:34,756 --> 00:00:36,956 Speaker 1: here two days ago. 6 00:00:37,276 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 2: Nice, very nice? Did I tell you? You know that? 7 00:00:40,156 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 2: I was in Las Vegas and I had an afternoon 8 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 2: and I sat in this coffee shop and there were 9 00:00:47,396 --> 00:00:50,356 Speaker 2: three people next to me having the most interesting conversation. 10 00:00:50,916 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 2: And one of the guys started talking and I realized 11 00:00:53,996 --> 00:00:57,396 Speaker 2: he was talking about you. 12 00:00:57,476 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 1: Really. 13 00:00:58,036 --> 00:01:01,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a lawyer of some kind who like, 14 00:01:02,316 --> 00:01:04,916 Speaker 2: was a writer, lawyer or something. I don't know. I 15 00:01:04,916 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 2: couldn't figure it out. And I was eavesdropping in a 16 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:11,476 Speaker 2: conversation for like, and it was like the most interesting conversation. 17 00:01:13,916 --> 00:01:16,396 Speaker 1: I love that story. Now you did not tell me, 18 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:19,636 Speaker 1: and I have no idea who you're talking about. 19 00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:24,156 Speaker 2: Allow me to introduce a new voice to this podcast, 20 00:01:24,516 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 2: Maria Kanakhova. In basketball, they call people like Maria Swiss 21 00:01:29,716 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 2: army knives, people who do everything. Maria got a PhD 22 00:01:34,196 --> 00:01:36,636 Speaker 2: with the famous Walter Michelle, the guy who invented the 23 00:01:36,636 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 2: marshmallow test. She's written a bunch of brilliant New York 24 00:01:39,836 --> 00:01:43,476 Speaker 2: Times bestsellers. She decided at one point that she was 25 00:01:43,476 --> 00:01:47,636 Speaker 2: interested in poker, taught herself poker, became a poker champion, 26 00:01:48,076 --> 00:01:51,116 Speaker 2: made some enormous sum of money. She's the kind of 27 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:55,316 Speaker 2: person that random strangers talk about in coffee shops, which 28 00:01:55,356 --> 00:02:04,076 Speaker 2: is to say, my kind of person. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. 29 00:02:04,236 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 2: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 30 00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:11,676 Speaker 2: and misunderstand, and I have the pleasure in this episode 31 00:02:11,716 --> 00:02:15,556 Speaker 2: to bring you the fabulous Maria Konikova, who has agreed 32 00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:20,436 Speaker 2: to become the first ever Revisionist History amistman, or rather 33 00:02:20,676 --> 00:02:23,716 Speaker 2: honest person. She is joining the show to be the 34 00:02:23,756 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 2: advocate for you, dear listener, to call me on my nonsense, 35 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:30,276 Speaker 2: to be a voice of reason, to participate in the 36 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:34,836 Speaker 2: kind of whimsical, meandering flights of intellectual fancy that is 37 00:02:34,916 --> 00:02:41,796 Speaker 2: our trademark here at Pushkin Headquarters. So Maria, welcome to 38 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,116 Speaker 2: Vision's History. I could think of no one better equipped 39 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:49,516 Speaker 2: to speak truth to the power that is Revision's History. 40 00:02:49,916 --> 00:02:52,916 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me on the show, Malcolm. 41 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:55,316 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about this. You know, maybe you'll change 42 00:02:55,356 --> 00:02:58,156 Speaker 1: my mind maybe I'll change yours, but I think that 43 00:02:58,236 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: the conversation is going to be very entertaining no matter what. 44 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 2: Wonderful let's have at it. I am putting in your hands. 45 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 2: Is that correct? 46 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 1: Nice putty that's responsive and that talks back? 47 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:16,756 Speaker 2: Okay, you're driving this train, all right? 48 00:03:16,836 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 1: Perfect. So one of the fascinating episodes of this season 49 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: of Revisionist History was about the lack of iodine in 50 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:30,436 Speaker 1: people's diets and how this was discovered and how it 51 00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 1: was actually then addressed and had I actually did not 52 00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:39,036 Speaker 1: know the story at all. It's such a fascinating question. 53 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:42,236 Speaker 1: You know, how do we think about these things in 54 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 1: the present day? Would we be able to do something 55 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:47,676 Speaker 1: like this today, you know, especially like after COVID, after 56 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:50,636 Speaker 1: all of these things like add iodine to their salt 57 00:03:50,796 --> 00:03:52,596 Speaker 1: or their water and see what happens. What do you 58 00:03:52,596 --> 00:03:54,276 Speaker 1: think the response to something like that would be. 59 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:58,716 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting that there is a line, 60 00:03:59,116 --> 00:04:06,316 Speaker 2: there's a common line of either complaint or congratulation among 61 00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:10,556 Speaker 2: sciences where they say that experiment could never be done today. 62 00:04:11,116 --> 00:04:14,996 Speaker 2: The Stanford's Prison experiment could never be done today. Then 63 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:17,756 Speaker 2: the Tuskegee siftless experiment could never be done. You know, 64 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:20,076 Speaker 2: there's a whole long list of things. They look at that, 65 00:04:20,156 --> 00:04:22,996 Speaker 2: and they say, and that's because we are much more 66 00:04:23,036 --> 00:04:29,556 Speaker 2: mindful of people's autonomy, much better about obtaining consent. You 67 00:04:29,636 --> 00:04:31,956 Speaker 2: totally today could not go to Akron and dose up 68 00:04:31,996 --> 00:04:36,636 Speaker 2: a bunch of schoolgirls with a ton of eyeein. However, 69 00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:40,476 Speaker 2: my reaction to that argument is always the same, which is, yeah, 70 00:04:40,516 --> 00:04:46,996 Speaker 2: but we simultaneously conduct consentless experiments on human beings in 71 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:50,676 Speaker 2: the present day that are probably way more consequential, and 72 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:53,036 Speaker 2: we don't think twice about it. You know, think about 73 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:56,516 Speaker 2: the way we have disrupted the lives of I don't 74 00:04:56,556 --> 00:04:59,476 Speaker 2: know children over the last twenty five years, with all 75 00:04:59,556 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 2: of these new technologies. How's that not a massive experiment 76 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:06,476 Speaker 2: done without the consent of those who were experimented on. 77 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:10,636 Speaker 2: How is the Facebook algorithm, which you know shows you 78 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: only the things that are likely to evoke a deeply 79 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 2: emotional response in you. How's it not an experiment? I mean, 80 00:05:18,356 --> 00:05:19,916 Speaker 2: there's a part of me that just wants to throw 81 00:05:19,956 --> 00:05:26,316 Speaker 2: out my hands and say, you know, efort, well, it's 82 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:29,756 Speaker 2: not even let's not even let's not even bother making 83 00:05:29,796 --> 00:05:34,196 Speaker 2: these distinctions. Once we've conceded that all these experiments can 84 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:36,716 Speaker 2: go on. Let's just declare them experiments and let people 85 00:05:36,796 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 2: pick and choose the one they want to be a 86 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 2: part of. 87 00:05:38,996 --> 00:05:42,236 Speaker 1: I think there's something to that, especially because you know, 88 00:05:42,516 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: at least with the iodine, right, it was there was 89 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:49,436 Speaker 1: scientific evidence for the test, right, There was a reason 90 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:51,796 Speaker 1: why they did it. There was a huge body of 91 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:56,916 Speaker 1: evidence behind this, and the study was run as a study, 92 00:05:57,036 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 1: and so there were scientific controls in place. You know, 93 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:03,356 Speaker 1: they actually could gather data, whereas with a lot of 94 00:06:03,356 --> 00:06:06,356 Speaker 1: these other things, you know, it becomes a natural experiment, 95 00:06:06,876 --> 00:06:10,836 Speaker 1: which is obviously MESSI has a lot of unintended consequences, 96 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:13,636 Speaker 1: and I mean there are a lot of different questions there. 97 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: I'm actually curious about flipping it around where you have 98 00:06:16,276 --> 00:06:19,636 Speaker 1: something like fluoride, right, which is another additive that's put 99 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 1: in our water. And last year, I don't know if 100 00:06:24,596 --> 00:06:27,396 Speaker 1: you were following this, but in a town in Vermont, 101 00:06:27,876 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 1: it turned out that a town official for over a 102 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: decade had been lowering fluoride levels below the accepted minimums 103 00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: because he thought that it was a government conspiracy. You know, 104 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 1: fluoride in your water bad. And he resigned and it 105 00:06:44,316 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: was a big outrage, and everyone was outraged that their 106 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:53,196 Speaker 1: water wasn't being properly fluoridated, that they actually weren't getting 107 00:06:53,396 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 1: the numbers that they needed for dental health, cavities, et cetera. 108 00:06:56,996 --> 00:06:58,956 Speaker 1: I just did think that it was such an interesting 109 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 1: counterpoint because normally it's, oh, don't add anything, right, I 110 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:04,476 Speaker 1: don't want anything at it that I don't know about. 111 00:07:04,756 --> 00:07:08,556 Speaker 1: I want natural salt, I want natural water. I don't 112 00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 1: want you adding anything, you know, big pharma, big government, 113 00:07:11,876 --> 00:07:15,356 Speaker 1: big big, et cetera. And here the town was actually horrified, 114 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:18,196 Speaker 1: which I think they should have been. 115 00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:22,036 Speaker 3: You know, I'm biased, you know, I think there's good 116 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 3: evidence that adding Florida to water is a good thing, 117 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:26,836 Speaker 3: that adding I had dined to salt is a good thing, 118 00:07:27,356 --> 00:07:29,636 Speaker 3: and that when things are good. 119 00:07:29,436 --> 00:07:31,876 Speaker 1: For our health and we're not going to get them 120 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:33,836 Speaker 1: in any other way, that this is a great way 121 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 1: of doing it. But a lot of people disagree. 122 00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 2: Well, I wonder, you know, if that are they responding 123 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:42,836 Speaker 2: to the Florida They responding to what they see as 124 00:07:42,956 --> 00:07:46,916 Speaker 2: as the official abusing his position, right, you can you 125 00:07:46,956 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 2: know it's it's it's maybe it's a bit of both, 126 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 2: or you know, you could see people who might ordinarily 127 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 2: be indifferent to fluoride just getting pissed off over this issue. 128 00:07:57,996 --> 00:07:59,916 Speaker 2: This guy's like, you're not allowed to do that, sir. 129 00:08:02,476 --> 00:08:05,196 Speaker 2: Hold on, hold on, it's time for a short break. 130 00:08:05,476 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 2: When we come back, we'll talk more about how salt 131 00:08:08,036 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 2: and revision is history are changing lives, and also the 132 00:08:12,516 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 2: infamous Minnesota starvation study. 133 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 1: So let's read a letter about someone from someone who 134 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:30,596 Speaker 1: I actually I love this letter. I just saw it 135 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:36,036 Speaker 1: today and it is a very positive take on additions 136 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: to food and someone who says that, you know, the 137 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:41,756 Speaker 1: Salt episode actually really changed their life. So this is 138 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:45,796 Speaker 1: from Mary P. And she writes that it was a crazy, 139 00:08:45,836 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 1: awesome coincidence that I was listening to this episode around 140 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:52,276 Speaker 1: the same time my doctor felt a nodule on my thyroid. 141 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:54,956 Speaker 1: He told me to go get an ultrasound, and my 142 00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: thyroid and nodule both were large enough and suspicious enough 143 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:01,716 Speaker 1: that it was recommended automatically that I get a biopsy. 144 00:09:02,436 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 1: So she went for her first biopsy and the results 145 00:09:05,596 --> 00:09:10,116 Speaker 1: came back in conclusive. And I'm going to continue reading 146 00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 1: her letter. They sent another side for genetic texting. Meanwhile, 147 00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 1: I bought some iodized salt and started cooking with it. 148 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 1: I had switched to kosher salt and other fancy salts 149 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:22,676 Speaker 1: over the past few years, and I'm an avid at 150 00:09:22,676 --> 00:09:26,196 Speaker 1: home cook. We also live in the Midwest. I used 151 00:09:26,236 --> 00:09:29,676 Speaker 1: iodized salt in moderation, of course, and thought nothing more 152 00:09:29,716 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 1: of it. Well, I went back for my biopsy and 153 00:09:32,716 --> 00:09:36,196 Speaker 1: they took new ultrasound images of my thyroid. This was 154 00:09:36,236 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 1: about two to three months after my original ultrasounds. In biopsies, 155 00:09:40,116 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 1: the ultrasound tech was asking me many questions and seemed confused, 156 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 1: but kept to himself. The doctor came in and told 157 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: me to sit up. My nodules and thyroids had all shrunk. 158 00:09:52,076 --> 00:09:56,556 Speaker 1: My once once sentime to nodule was now around five millimeters. 159 00:09:57,036 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: He had no reason to biopsy because there was nothing 160 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:04,436 Speaker 1: of concern. In fact, he would not biopsy it, no surgery, 161 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: just a follow up scan in a year Hallalujah. I 162 00:10:08,436 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 1: told him my theory about the iodine and he said 163 00:10:10,916 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 1: that very well could have been what shrunk everything. I 164 00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 1: asked if the cancer could be in there, just smaller. 165 00:10:16,916 --> 00:10:18,796 Speaker 1: He scoffed at me and said no. 166 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:22,476 Speaker 2: What a great letter, right, Wow, for all of those 167 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 2: who doubt the healing power of Revision's history. I present 168 00:10:26,596 --> 00:10:30,116 Speaker 2: you this letter. We don't we don't just we don't 169 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:33,076 Speaker 2: just rile up our listeners. We save lives. This is 170 00:10:34,316 --> 00:10:37,996 Speaker 2: a resounding endorsement of years of Revision's history. 171 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,076 Speaker 1: And those types of coincidences are great. Right, that you 172 00:10:41,196 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 1: hear something and it actually has such an impact that 173 00:10:45,076 --> 00:10:47,316 Speaker 1: would have been a life changing thing for her to 174 00:10:47,436 --> 00:10:50,316 Speaker 1: have no thyroid function, half her thyroid function for the 175 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:51,676 Speaker 1: rest of our life, that's a huge thing. 176 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:54,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a reminder. This is one of 177 00:10:55,036 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 2: these weird things, like one hundred years ago, what she's 178 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:03,516 Speaker 2: describing was commonplace. In fact, this is a little little 179 00:11:03,516 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 2: fact in that episode that I can never get over 180 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 2: my head is if you went to parts of the 181 00:11:07,796 --> 00:11:10,796 Speaker 2: world that were iodine to fish and some extraordinarily high 182 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:15,236 Speaker 2: percentage of the population had these massive goiters on their neck, 183 00:11:15,436 --> 00:11:18,156 Speaker 2: and like that was just part of the part of 184 00:11:18,196 --> 00:11:20,356 Speaker 2: the experience of going to the Swiss Alps, or part 185 00:11:20,356 --> 00:11:23,516 Speaker 2: of the experience of going to somewhere around the Great 186 00:11:23,596 --> 00:11:26,596 Speaker 2: Lakes was you'd walk into a small town and you 187 00:11:26,636 --> 00:11:30,956 Speaker 2: know whatever, quote of the people had big grapefruit sized 188 00:11:32,276 --> 00:11:35,076 Speaker 2: masses on their necks. It's just so strange. 189 00:11:35,876 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: It's crazy how little we still know about nutrition. Right. 190 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 1: Nutrition is complicated, and I think that's one of the 191 00:11:42,516 --> 00:11:45,836 Speaker 1: reasons why people still have, you know, so many questions, 192 00:11:45,876 --> 00:11:48,396 Speaker 1: so many issues, why we go back and forth with 193 00:11:48,476 --> 00:11:51,596 Speaker 1: nutritional advice, because the body is a complex thing, right, 194 00:11:51,596 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: It's a complex machine, and it's so it's very difficult 195 00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:58,636 Speaker 1: oftentimes to know like this is the recommendation and it 196 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:00,676 Speaker 1: will always be the recommendation. 197 00:12:00,316 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 2: And also, you know, it's hard. This is sort of 198 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:06,076 Speaker 2: what brings us to the miss starvation experiment, which I'm 199 00:12:06,076 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 2: sure we're going to talk about. But one of the 200 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:11,836 Speaker 2: big impetuses for that is that one of the reasons 201 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 2: we know so little about nutrition is that it's impossible 202 00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:18,516 Speaker 2: to test hypotheses about nutrition, because how do you do 203 00:12:18,676 --> 00:12:21,756 Speaker 2: it right, Like, if you think about something as simple 204 00:12:21,796 --> 00:12:30,556 Speaker 2: as does drinking alcohol harm or help your health? Right, 205 00:12:31,716 --> 00:12:33,916 Speaker 2: that's a question that's been irrelevant for as long as 206 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:36,876 Speaker 2: human beings have drunk alcohol, So thousands and thousands and 207 00:12:36,916 --> 00:12:40,116 Speaker 2: thousands of years, we're still arguing about that. And the 208 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:42,756 Speaker 2: reason we're still arguing about it is it's virtually impossible 209 00:12:42,796 --> 00:12:46,836 Speaker 2: to design a study which would satisfactorily answer that question. 210 00:12:47,196 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 2: So there happens that which say people who drink wine 211 00:12:49,916 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 2: and moderation seem to live long, healthy lives. But you know, 212 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:58,196 Speaker 2: the problem is that people who drink wine in moderation 213 00:12:58,316 --> 00:13:04,036 Speaker 2: are people who otherwise live moderate, healthy lives. Right, They're like, 214 00:13:04,676 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 2: you know, they're villagers in the south of Italy who 215 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:11,676 Speaker 2: are getting in enormous amount of exercise and living in 216 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:14,716 Speaker 2: bucolics surroundings. So you just don't know is it is. 217 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:17,676 Speaker 2: Are are they living long, happy lives in spite of 218 00:13:17,716 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 2: their one consumption or because of it? Right simontanoing you 219 00:13:21,836 --> 00:13:24,676 Speaker 2: know you see these so you can read. It's just 220 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:26,796 Speaker 2: incredibly I just read read the other day, like there's 221 00:13:26,836 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 2: a new line of thinking which says, you know, all 222 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 2: alcohol is basically like really bad for you and should 223 00:13:32,596 --> 00:13:33,076 Speaker 2: be avoided. 224 00:13:33,356 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 1: I saw that. 225 00:13:34,556 --> 00:13:36,156 Speaker 2: I have no idea what to make of that, Like, 226 00:13:36,316 --> 00:13:38,196 Speaker 2: I don't even know how do they manage that conclusion. 227 00:13:38,436 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 2: It's just that that idea that we could be in 228 00:13:40,876 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three and still being capable of answering these 229 00:13:44,636 --> 00:13:47,076 Speaker 2: questions with any degree of accuracy is fascinating to me. 230 00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's totally crazy. It's so funny that you mentioned 231 00:13:50,076 --> 00:13:52,636 Speaker 1: red wine, which is you know, or alcohol in general. 232 00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:56,476 Speaker 1: The first one of the first studies I ever worked 233 00:13:56,476 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 1: on as a journalist who who kind of is interested 234 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:02,956 Speaker 1: in these questions forever ago, was on resveratrol when it 235 00:14:02,996 --> 00:14:05,596 Speaker 1: first came out, like the data that, oh my god, 236 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 1: res vitrol makes you live longer, and everyone was saying, great, 237 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 1: red wine, it's amazing. Then a few years later we 238 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:15,516 Speaker 1: find out that the quantity of versviatrol you need is 239 00:14:15,676 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 1: just so much higher than you would ever get. And 240 00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:20,356 Speaker 1: it goes back and forth, and I've seen that one 241 00:14:20,476 --> 00:14:25,356 Speaker 1: question just go in circles for you know, almost twenty 242 00:14:25,396 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 1: years now, and we we just have no idea. 243 00:14:29,076 --> 00:14:31,276 Speaker 2: Do you remember was it were they Were they getting 244 00:14:31,716 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 2: rats large doses of. 245 00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:36,396 Speaker 1: Yes, Oh, that's the thing, exactly, That was exactly it. 246 00:14:36,396 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: It was rodents, rodence, and red wine. 247 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 2: So the only the only thing we can say for 248 00:14:40,756 --> 00:14:44,276 Speaker 2: certain is that within the rat population, those who enjoy 249 00:14:44,796 --> 00:14:46,916 Speaker 2: a good bottle of wine every night are going to 250 00:14:46,956 --> 00:14:47,836 Speaker 2: live a little longer. 251 00:14:48,556 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 1: So I think that this is a good a good 252 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: segue point. You know, people who were not drinking any 253 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:56,796 Speaker 1: wine were taking part in the starvation study, that was 254 00:14:56,836 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: part of this season of revisionist history. So I mean, 255 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 1: first of all that study, let's just kind of recap 256 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:09,956 Speaker 1: it very quickly. I mean we're talking actual starvation, like 257 00:15:10,116 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: the number of calories that these men. So it was 258 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:20,316 Speaker 1: all men. It was all young, relatively healthy men who were, 259 00:15:20,876 --> 00:15:23,436 Speaker 1: for one reason or another, not in the military, not 260 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 1: serving abroad during World War two, and they were all 261 00:15:28,556 --> 00:15:32,716 Speaker 1: brought to this place to try to control because as 262 00:15:32,756 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 1: we've just talked about, it's really difficult to control food intake, 263 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:38,356 Speaker 1: to try to control it as much as possible, to 264 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:40,876 Speaker 1: try to do their part for the war effort to 265 00:15:40,916 --> 00:15:44,636 Speaker 1: see how starvation affects the body. Is that a fair summar. 266 00:15:44,396 --> 00:15:49,116 Speaker 2: Race, Yes, exactly, because you don't already had The impetus 267 00:15:49,236 --> 00:15:52,076 Speaker 2: was this was in the middle of the war, and 268 00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:54,516 Speaker 2: the feeling was that by the end of the war 269 00:15:54,796 --> 00:15:56,956 Speaker 2: one of the biggest problems the world was going to 270 00:15:56,996 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 2: face was that millions of people around the world had 271 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 2: suffered prolonged malnutrition throughout the conflict, and we didn't know 272 00:16:06,036 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 2: how to help them. We honestly had no idea if 273 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:13,116 Speaker 2: someone has been malnourished for a year and a half, 274 00:16:13,476 --> 00:16:15,476 Speaker 2: what is the best way to nurse them back to 275 00:16:15,516 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 2: health and literally we hit people. At the time didn't 276 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:21,796 Speaker 2: have the size clue, right, So they were trying to 277 00:16:21,796 --> 00:16:26,476 Speaker 2: answer that question with some at least get some information 278 00:16:26,556 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 2: about that. So there was the stakes here were huge. 279 00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 2: I mean, that's what gives the study, it's kind of 280 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 2: moral force. 281 00:16:35,276 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 1: So that's an interesting question, right, does the study have 282 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: the necessary moral force to do something like this, because 283 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:44,036 Speaker 1: when back in the day, right back when this study 284 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 1: was done World War Two, we didn't have the sort 285 00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:50,236 Speaker 1: of reviews on studies that we have today. So these 286 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 1: days you need to go through an i RB, which 287 00:16:52,796 --> 00:16:56,196 Speaker 1: is an institutional review board when you're doing any sort 288 00:16:56,236 --> 00:17:00,196 Speaker 1: of human research, and you need to have every single 289 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:05,796 Speaker 1: subject give informed consent. And this is crucial. The benefits 290 00:17:05,836 --> 00:17:10,276 Speaker 1: of this specific study have to outweigh and potential harm 291 00:17:10,716 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 1: to the participants in the study. And so to me, 292 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: you know, when I listened to kind of the details 293 00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 1: of the starvation experiment, I knew that it existed, but 294 00:17:23,156 --> 00:17:26,196 Speaker 1: I actually didn't I'd never actually kind of gone deep 295 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:29,396 Speaker 1: into it. This was the most I'd learned about it 296 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 1: was from you. And as I was listening, I was 297 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:37,516 Speaker 1: trying to think, you know, first of all, benefits versus harm. 298 00:17:37,916 --> 00:17:40,676 Speaker 1: You know, how do we think about that? And I 299 00:17:40,676 --> 00:17:43,276 Speaker 1: think that's actually changed over the years. But the second 300 00:17:43,316 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 1: part of it is how do you actually give informed 301 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:49,836 Speaker 1: consent of all the potential downsides to something like this 302 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:54,796 Speaker 1: when you're researching something where you don't actually know what 303 00:17:54,876 --> 00:17:56,316 Speaker 1: the potential downsides are. 304 00:17:57,476 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 2: Well, it's like spaceflight. You're sending an astronaut to the moon. 305 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:07,476 Speaker 2: Presumably you pull the astronaut aside beforehand and you say 306 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:12,036 Speaker 2: the benefit year is mankind will be able to say 307 00:18:12,036 --> 00:18:15,116 Speaker 2: we went to the moon. But you know, in that situation, 308 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:19,156 Speaker 2: the first astronaut in space, we don't know what it's 309 00:18:19,236 --> 00:18:22,636 Speaker 2: like to be out for a couple weeks in zero gravity. 310 00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:25,316 Speaker 2: So I don't know how do they do consent. I 311 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:29,796 Speaker 2: guess they said, you're taking a risk of unknown quantity, 312 00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 2: you might be damaged by what you're doing. Are you 313 00:18:32,876 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 2: fine with that? And I think the answer they were 314 00:18:35,156 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 2: fine with it is that many of those astronauts came 315 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 2: out of the military, and so they were used to 316 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:46,556 Speaker 2: the idea that they were called to do something on 317 00:18:46,636 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 2: behalf of their country, which carried with it a significant 318 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:52,756 Speaker 2: risk of illness and death. 319 00:18:53,116 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 1: I think That's an interesting example, but it's not a 320 00:18:55,996 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 1: complete analogy, because this was their profession, right, this was 321 00:18:59,116 --> 00:19:01,716 Speaker 1: their career, this is what they had signed up for. 322 00:19:01,836 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 1: They became astronauts with the knowledge that they would hopefully 323 00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:07,956 Speaker 1: be able to go into space one day. Whereas these 324 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:11,596 Speaker 1: study participants were just ordinary men who were called upon 325 00:19:11,796 --> 00:19:14,956 Speaker 1: by their patriotic feelings and said, you know, do you 326 00:19:14,996 --> 00:19:17,396 Speaker 1: want to do your patriotic duty. That's a lot of pressure, 327 00:19:17,396 --> 00:19:19,796 Speaker 1: and that's not your life. This is not something that's 328 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:23,276 Speaker 1: your career. You're being asked to do something that's just 329 00:19:23,396 --> 00:19:24,716 Speaker 1: totally out of the ordinary. 330 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 2: Wait, you are you? Are you a Minnesota's starvation experiment skeptic? 331 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 2: Do you not think it should have been done? No? 332 00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 1: I'm someone who wants to push back though, and to 333 00:19:35,916 --> 00:19:41,156 Speaker 1: question how it was done and whether they could potentially 334 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 1: have ever given and formed consent to something like this, 335 00:19:44,236 --> 00:19:47,556 Speaker 1: especially given what we know now about the long, longitudinal, 336 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:51,956 Speaker 1: long term effects about starvation. Back then, the term epigenetic 337 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:54,956 Speaker 1: I don't think even existed. People did not know kind 338 00:19:54,956 --> 00:19:59,076 Speaker 1: of what the interaction of genes and environment is. Today, 339 00:19:59,276 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: we actually know that starvation has lifelong consequences. They actually 340 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 1: change the methylation patterns of your of your genes, of 341 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:13,676 Speaker 1: your genome, and that there's actually a lot of damage 342 00:20:13,676 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 1: that is going to be done for your entire life. 343 00:20:16,116 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is a lot of the data, 344 00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 1: the best data that we have on this didn't come 345 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: from the starvation experiment, but actually happened from a natural 346 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:27,196 Speaker 1: experiment that came at the exact same time, more or 347 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 1: less contemporaneous, which was basically the Dutch hunger winter. It 348 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:38,396 Speaker 1: was also during World War Two there was a huge 349 00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:43,076 Speaker 1: famine in the Netherlands because there was a blockade by 350 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:47,196 Speaker 1: the Nazis and thousands of people died. I think something 351 00:20:47,276 --> 00:20:51,196 Speaker 1: like twenty thousand people ended up dying. But at the 352 00:20:51,236 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 1: same time, there were a bunch of women who were 353 00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:57,356 Speaker 1: pregnant and doctors were taking all of the measurements that 354 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:01,156 Speaker 1: you would normally take during pregnancy, but these women happened 355 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:04,636 Speaker 1: to be starving, and then they ended up following the 356 00:21:04,676 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 1: women and the babies for their lives and actually got 357 00:21:10,076 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 1: an amazing amount of data on what starvation does to 358 00:21:12,956 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 1: the body. 359 00:21:14,076 --> 00:21:14,796 Speaker 2: What does it do? 360 00:21:15,476 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 1: Oh well, we're still finding out. There are lots of 361 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:21,316 Speaker 1: things that end up happening later in life. You're more 362 00:21:21,356 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: prone to gain weight because your body is prepared for 363 00:21:24,036 --> 00:21:29,236 Speaker 1: starvation and has been prepared for from in utero. It 364 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:33,756 Speaker 1: also ends up, you know, affecting your the way that 365 00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 1: your kids are going to develop. So if you were, 366 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:42,116 Speaker 1: I guess, a fetus during during this time, then by 367 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:45,596 Speaker 1: the time that you're you're an adult, when you have 368 00:21:45,676 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 1: your own kids, you're actually going to pass a lot 369 00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 1: of these epigenetic changes further on to them. They are 370 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:59,356 Speaker 1: also going to be effects on how you're going to 371 00:21:59,556 --> 00:22:02,956 Speaker 1: just think and do in life. It turns out that 372 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:07,916 Speaker 1: there are labor market effects, hospitalization effects, so you know, 373 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 1: it actually puts you down a notch. But this is 374 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:14,356 Speaker 1: once again we're talking about the people who were who 375 00:22:14,356 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 1: were fetuses during this time, which is very different from 376 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: the starvation study, but it ends up having a lot 377 00:22:19,396 --> 00:22:22,556 Speaker 1: of downstream effects, and those studies are still being done. 378 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 1: So there are you know, there's a new paper at 379 00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: least once every few years using this cohort which shows 380 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,156 Speaker 1: that you know, you didn't there are lots of things 381 00:22:34,196 --> 00:22:36,196 Speaker 1: that you didn't know you were signing up for. If 382 00:22:36,236 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 1: you thought that this was just going to be an 383 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 1: easy you know, I starve myself completely and then I'm 384 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 1: all better and this will never actually follow me throughout life. 385 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me that I think some of 386 00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:50,476 Speaker 1: our best data comes from a natural experiment, as opposed 387 00:22:50,516 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 1: to something where a bunch of men said, okay, starve 388 00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 1: me and let's see what happens. 389 00:22:56,996 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 2: So imagine that we were doing a version of the 390 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 2: Dutch starvation thing involving pregnant women. But it was an experiment, right. 391 00:23:07,476 --> 00:23:10,356 Speaker 1: All right, magic wandftly measure. 392 00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 2: And what we learned from that is that actually starving 393 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:19,876 Speaker 2: people when they're pregnant has incredible as unanticipated long term 394 00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 2: consequences not just for the mother but for the child 395 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:27,356 Speaker 2: and even maybe for the child's children child. 396 00:23:27,956 --> 00:23:29,316 Speaker 1: So absolutely so. 397 00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 2: In other words, and we had no idea of this before. 398 00:23:32,156 --> 00:23:34,996 Speaker 2: So this is a kind of like, this is a 399 00:23:35,276 --> 00:23:40,556 Speaker 2: this is a earth shattering, huge bit of understanding about 400 00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:47,236 Speaker 2: human beings. Why wouldn't this be an argument. Why wouldn't 401 00:23:47,236 --> 00:23:50,156 Speaker 2: the magnitude of what we learned from that such an 402 00:23:50,156 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 2: experiment be an argument for doing the experiment? 403 00:23:53,076 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 1: Not? 404 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 2: Right, It's so important that hundreds thousands, millions more people 405 00:23:59,676 --> 00:24:02,436 Speaker 2: could be helped from the knowledge gleaned from that experiment 406 00:24:02,516 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 2: than those who were who were harmed by it, And 407 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:10,276 Speaker 2: if the people who signed up for that experien had 408 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:14,676 Speaker 2: a at least a kind of reasonable suspicion that what 409 00:24:14,836 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 2: was learned from the from them putting themselves at risk 410 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 2: might help many, many, many, many many more people, then 411 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 2: to my mind, that settles it. It's fine. I mean, 412 00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:28,276 Speaker 2: this is what I was trying to get to in 413 00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:31,396 Speaker 2: the podcast, is that we're so indifferent to people who 414 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 2: have altruistic motives. That isn't where is the altruistic motive 415 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 2: data point in the consent algorithm? Like you should be 416 00:24:40,756 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 2: able to say, I know it's going to harm me, 417 00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:45,076 Speaker 2: but I think it's going to help a lot more people, 418 00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 2: and I'm fine with that. 419 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:49,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like I said, when you asked me, am 420 00:24:49,076 --> 00:24:51,436 Speaker 1: I a skeptic of this? I said, I'm not necessarily 421 00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 1: someone who said this shouldn't have happened. I just think that, 422 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:57,196 Speaker 1: you know, there are lots of issues to consider. So, yeah, 423 00:24:57,276 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: there is this. There's definitely an argument to be made that, 424 00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:04,356 Speaker 1: you know, what we learned from Dutch famine shows that 425 00:25:04,396 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 1: studies like this are incredibly important. But in this particular case, right, 426 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:12,756 Speaker 1: I think in the pregnancy case, you're also giving consent 427 00:25:12,876 --> 00:25:16,236 Speaker 1: for your fetus. Right, So it's one of these things 428 00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:22,356 Speaker 1: where that's even if you're an altruist, I think that 429 00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:25,116 Speaker 1: that would be a very strange definition of altruism, because 430 00:25:25,436 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 1: you're being altruistic for the world, but not for this 431 00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:31,956 Speaker 1: one specific human who has no say in this whatsoever. 432 00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:36,436 Speaker 2: But I would say this like so, for much of 433 00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 2: human history, continue to the present day, a large percentage 434 00:25:40,556 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 2: of the world's population suffers from prolonged malnutritionolutely, So one 435 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:50,836 Speaker 2: really important historical question is what can we do to 436 00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:54,996 Speaker 2: convince the wealthier parts of the world that this is 437 00:25:55,036 --> 00:26:00,396 Speaker 2: such an urgent problem that it needs to be addressed immediately. Right, 438 00:26:01,156 --> 00:26:04,596 Speaker 2: wouldn't it make sense to try an extreme experiment of 439 00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 2: this sort to try and bring the world around? 440 00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:11,156 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think that's a very valid point. 441 00:26:11,196 --> 00:26:14,236 Speaker 1: And you actually had a letter from a listener, Robert A, 442 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,316 Speaker 1: who asked a question that kind of circles around what 443 00:26:17,356 --> 00:26:20,796 Speaker 1: we've been talking about. He asks, who is responsible for 444 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: a system which both restricts voluntary breakthrough research like that 445 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:29,556 Speaker 1: conducted by Ansel Keys and the conscientious Objectors, and that 446 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:32,956 Speaker 1: which fails to take accountability when mistakes are made? So 447 00:26:33,236 --> 00:26:36,356 Speaker 1: there's a that's I think an interesting question because you 448 00:26:36,396 --> 00:26:38,716 Speaker 1: do have those two sides of it. So we do 449 00:26:38,796 --> 00:26:41,076 Speaker 1: have a system that now does restrict that kind of 450 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,916 Speaker 1: breakthrough research quite often. I mean, when I was in 451 00:26:43,996 --> 00:26:48,436 Speaker 1: grad school for psychology and I needed to do an 452 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:53,676 Speaker 1: experiment that had deception, I just I couldn't get it approved. 453 00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:57,396 Speaker 1: I had to jump through so many hoops, and eventually, 454 00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:00,356 Speaker 1: you know, with the support of all the senior faculty 455 00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:04,956 Speaker 1: in the psychology department, it was just this silly thing. 456 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:07,916 Speaker 1: It wasn't even a major deception study, but we needed 457 00:27:08,156 --> 00:27:10,956 Speaker 1: We couldn't tell them that we were studying self control, right, 458 00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 1: because that would actually have defeated the purpose of the 459 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:19,076 Speaker 1: entire study. And how many studies are not done because 460 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:20,956 Speaker 1: of that. So that's kind of the one side of it. 461 00:27:21,196 --> 00:27:23,316 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, there's a reason for all 462 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: of these safeguards because you have things like the Stanford 463 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: person experiment, right, you have things like Tuskegee. You have 464 00:27:29,956 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 1: things that really crossed the line without informed consent, with deception, 465 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 1: with a lack of understanding of what was going to happen. 466 00:27:38,276 --> 00:27:42,476 Speaker 1: I mean, one nutrition study that was done, I don't 467 00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 1: know if you remember this one, but it was done 468 00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:50,076 Speaker 1: in Washington on some young men who were working, you know, 469 00:27:50,316 --> 00:27:53,316 Speaker 1: around DC at the time, and they were basically they 470 00:27:53,356 --> 00:27:56,516 Speaker 1: agreed to be poisoned. They went to the Congressional cafeteria 471 00:27:56,556 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 1: in their diet was very strictly controlled and they were 472 00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 1: just trying to figure out how different food additives work. 473 00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 1: And some of them got incredibly sick because it turns 474 00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:08,676 Speaker 1: out that they were eating very toxic amounts of things 475 00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 1: they should not have been eating. So that was that 476 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 1: was a study gone a bit off the off the 477 00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:16,956 Speaker 1: rails when it comes to nutrition. But so you have 478 00:28:17,036 --> 00:28:20,196 Speaker 1: those two extremes and how do you how do you 479 00:28:20,276 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 1: weigh that, how do you balance that? How do you 480 00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:26,236 Speaker 1: not in retrospect where we can say, Okay, you know 481 00:28:26,316 --> 00:28:28,276 Speaker 1: this is what we learned from this study and it 482 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:31,636 Speaker 1: was really good, but before it happens, how do we 483 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:34,196 Speaker 1: how do we think about that? How do we kind 484 00:28:34,196 --> 00:28:36,116 Speaker 1: of how do we walk that line? 485 00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say that there is there is one 486 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:46,556 Speaker 2: area on this where I am I'm the you know, 487 00:28:46,596 --> 00:28:50,196 Speaker 2: I've been talking so far about how I would I 488 00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:53,476 Speaker 2: tend to be pretty laissez faire about giving researchers the 489 00:28:53,516 --> 00:28:56,316 Speaker 2: freedom to do things that are a little bit risky. 490 00:28:56,436 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 2: Or there's another area though, where I'm on the exact 491 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:08,716 Speaker 2: opposite side of the fence, And what am I referring to, patience, grasshopper? 492 00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 2: When we come back more from my conversation with Maria Konakova, 493 00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:33,556 Speaker 2: we're back, and I was telling Maria that I'm pretty 494 00:29:33,636 --> 00:29:37,796 Speaker 2: laissez fair about letting experiments go forward, except in the 495 00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 2: case of what might be the most awful natural experiment 496 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:47,036 Speaker 2: we're living through right now. I am incredulous at the 497 00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:51,276 Speaker 2: idea that thousands of pages of text and hours of 498 00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:55,356 Speaker 2: argumentation is spent on the ethics of one medical experiment 499 00:29:55,436 --> 00:29:59,276 Speaker 2: or another. And at the same time we are, you know, 500 00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:05,356 Speaker 2: completely indifferent or cavalier about the levels of violence that 501 00:30:05,396 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 2: are present in media every day. Now, there had been 502 00:30:08,236 --> 00:30:11,196 Speaker 2: moments every now and again, periodically there are moments where 503 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:16,556 Speaker 2: various interest groups get upset about depictions of violence on television. 504 00:30:16,636 --> 00:30:18,716 Speaker 2: Was a big deal I think in the seventies, for example, 505 00:30:18,716 --> 00:30:20,396 Speaker 2: and then it sort of went away, and then the 506 00:30:20,436 --> 00:30:24,316 Speaker 2: people who were complained about this got painted as kind 507 00:30:24,356 --> 00:30:28,076 Speaker 2: of buffoons or as naive sewer in the middle of nowhere. 508 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,836 Speaker 2: And you know, I don't want to give it away, 509 00:30:30,836 --> 00:30:34,476 Speaker 2: but I had in the course of an episode of 510 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:38,516 Speaker 2: I'm Doing in this upcoming season where I have these 511 00:30:38,516 --> 00:30:42,916 Speaker 2: long conversations with trauma surgeons who deal with gunshot wounds, 512 00:30:42,956 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 2: and what they have to say on this very specific 513 00:30:46,556 --> 00:30:53,196 Speaker 2: matter is incredibly interesting and disturbing. They're They're not like 514 00:30:53,276 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 2: hiding their head in the sand about this. They are 515 00:30:55,476 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 2: fully aware of it. The people who are who have 516 00:30:58,756 --> 00:31:01,996 Speaker 2: a I believe a morally objectionable position, or the people 517 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:06,036 Speaker 2: in Hollywood, many of whom are self described liberals, who 518 00:31:06,076 --> 00:31:08,476 Speaker 2: will go on and on and on about the you know, 519 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:12,116 Speaker 2: the terror need for gun control in America and how 520 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:15,076 Speaker 2: outrageous all the Second Amendment people is. And meanwhile they're 521 00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:18,476 Speaker 2: making movies well like twenty people are slaughtered in the 522 00:31:18,516 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 2: first fifteen minutes. Like, I'm sorry, this is just like 523 00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:25,956 Speaker 2: completely incomprehensible behavior, right. This drives me nuts. 524 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:29,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that there's a lot to be said 525 00:31:29,796 --> 00:31:33,156 Speaker 1: for that. It's like we've never outlived the instinct for 526 00:31:33,236 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 1: public executions right where everyone would come to the town square. 527 00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 1: Instinct is still alive and well, it's an important tangent 528 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:43,956 Speaker 1: to go on, and it is related to everything we've 529 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 1: been talking about about how do you study this? You know, 530 00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 1: what are the benefits, what are the harms? And there's 531 00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 1: you so kind of coming full circle back to the 532 00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:55,916 Speaker 1: starvation experiment, there is one thing that we haven't talked about, 533 00:31:55,996 --> 00:31:59,156 Speaker 1: which was an important point that one of the listeners 534 00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:01,516 Speaker 1: brought up. And this is an important point about a 535 00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:04,956 Speaker 1: lot of the research not from that day, but that 536 00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:08,676 Speaker 1: continues to be done to this day, which is how 537 00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:12,236 Speaker 1: realizable are the results to the segments of the population 538 00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 1: that might actually benefit most from it. So Maura, this 539 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:20,556 Speaker 1: listener wrote, how can we treat eating disorder patients primarily 540 00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:24,676 Speaker 1: young women using data collected exclusively on white men. How 541 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:26,876 Speaker 1: can we use this to study the impact of dieting 542 00:32:26,956 --> 00:32:29,716 Speaker 1: and weight loss when dining is more prevalent and pressured 543 00:32:29,796 --> 00:32:32,876 Speaker 1: upon among women. How can we use this to study 544 00:32:32,916 --> 00:32:36,636 Speaker 1: obesity when non Hispanic black adults and Hispanic adults have 545 00:32:36,676 --> 00:32:41,036 Speaker 1: the highest prevalence of obesity in the United States. That's 546 00:32:41,076 --> 00:32:42,476 Speaker 1: the end of her letter, But I would just go 547 00:32:42,556 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 1: on and on. When we're talking about malnourishment and we 548 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:47,836 Speaker 1: realize that most of the malnourished population of the world 549 00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:50,996 Speaker 1: is not white men, So that is kind of an 550 00:32:51,076 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 1: interesting side note, and this is actually still a huge problem. 551 00:32:53,916 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: That's not something that we left behind in the forties. 552 00:32:56,516 --> 00:33:01,596 Speaker 1: To this day, most medical data comes from men, not women, 553 00:33:02,236 --> 00:33:05,516 Speaker 1: and it's a very kind of that's an interesting way 554 00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:09,116 Speaker 1: of looking at you what are the actual benefits from 555 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:11,556 Speaker 1: us to the people who need them, and how general 556 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:12,476 Speaker 1: of isable is. 557 00:33:12,796 --> 00:33:18,116 Speaker 2: If you're trying to develop actionable policies and guidelines and 558 00:33:18,156 --> 00:33:23,636 Speaker 2: approaches to affective populations, it absolutely does matter. And you know, 559 00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 2: we went through this with I think with our understanding 560 00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:32,956 Speaker 2: of heart attacks right where we started off testing a 561 00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:36,916 Speaker 2: lot of these hypotheses in men, white men, and that's 562 00:33:36,956 --> 00:33:39,076 Speaker 2: how we got our baseline knowledge. But then we tried 563 00:33:39,076 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 2: to use that information to kind of understand how to 564 00:33:44,156 --> 00:33:48,516 Speaker 2: deal with women without realizing that the biology of a 565 00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:50,356 Speaker 2: lot of these problems, physiology of a lot of these 566 00:33:50,356 --> 00:33:53,556 Speaker 2: problems in women's very different. So I think it depends 567 00:33:53,596 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 2: where you are in the kind of stage that you're at. 568 00:33:56,756 --> 00:34:00,116 Speaker 2: And the mistake we make, I think is we don't 569 00:34:00,156 --> 00:34:06,596 Speaker 2: honor this distinction between kind of basic understanding and actionable research. 570 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:11,116 Speaker 2: If you talk to somebody body who is works for 571 00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:15,556 Speaker 2: a pharmaceutical company and is involved in drug trials. You know, 572 00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:18,196 Speaker 2: they will talk your ear off on this, and what 573 00:34:18,236 --> 00:34:20,796 Speaker 2: they will say is, do you know how hard it 574 00:34:20,836 --> 00:34:24,596 Speaker 2: is to put together a study population. It's insanely difficult 575 00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:27,396 Speaker 2: to find someone. I actually thought of I was going 576 00:34:27,436 --> 00:34:32,076 Speaker 2: to volunteer for a trial about lime disease vaccine. And 577 00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:34,596 Speaker 2: then I add that the first thing to do is 578 00:34:34,636 --> 00:34:36,996 Speaker 2: you have half an hour conversation with someone. And they 579 00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:39,756 Speaker 2: detail that I would have to go to drive to 580 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:43,956 Speaker 2: Albany an hour away, seven times and have to set 581 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:46,836 Speaker 2: aside half a day on each of those occasions. And 582 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:48,876 Speaker 2: I wasn't clear whether I'd be part of the treatment 583 00:34:48,876 --> 00:34:51,796 Speaker 2: group or the pacibo group, right, So I listened to that. 584 00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:54,196 Speaker 2: I was like, I can't do that. I'm not taking 585 00:34:54,876 --> 00:34:57,876 Speaker 2: you know, somewhat selfishly, I decided I don't have that 586 00:34:57,956 --> 00:34:59,756 Speaker 2: much time to devote to this, so I'll let someone 587 00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:02,236 Speaker 2: else carry the burden. So it's like, it's really hard 588 00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:05,156 Speaker 2: to do these studies. So when you if we say 589 00:35:05,196 --> 00:35:08,636 Speaker 2: these studies have to be perfectly representative, you're just making 590 00:35:08,676 --> 00:35:10,356 Speaker 2: it less likely that the study gets done in the 591 00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:11,996 Speaker 2: first place at a certain point. Right, So that's the 592 00:35:12,036 --> 00:35:13,996 Speaker 2: trade off. It's an impossible trade off. 593 00:35:14,316 --> 00:35:16,436 Speaker 1: Sure, No, I think, I think there's a lot of 594 00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 1: truth to that. That said, I do think that even 595 00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:22,556 Speaker 1: baseline knowledge studies these days should at least include women 596 00:35:22,636 --> 00:35:24,756 Speaker 1: because you know, if you're omitting more than half the 597 00:35:24,756 --> 00:35:28,196 Speaker 1: population and the basic biology is different, then but. 598 00:35:28,356 --> 00:35:31,916 Speaker 2: You couldn't have done the starvation experiment with women. 599 00:35:32,276 --> 00:35:34,996 Speaker 1: So that's the other thing, right, what are we proposing 600 00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:38,076 Speaker 1: in the starvation case? Do we want women there? And 601 00:35:38,796 --> 00:35:42,676 Speaker 1: Hispanic and black where it's much more difficult to actually 602 00:35:42,756 --> 00:35:46,876 Speaker 1: obtain consent because especially back then, but even to this day, 603 00:35:46,916 --> 00:35:51,436 Speaker 1: you know, these are populations that have had a lot 604 00:35:51,476 --> 00:35:56,836 Speaker 1: of negative research done without consent, and it's actually much 605 00:35:56,876 --> 00:35:59,236 Speaker 1: more difficult, I would say, and the burden of proof 606 00:35:59,316 --> 00:36:03,236 Speaker 1: is much higher to ask for consent from vulnerable population. 607 00:36:03,636 --> 00:36:07,796 Speaker 2: You can't do a starvation experiment like that in Minnesota 608 00:36:07,836 --> 00:36:10,836 Speaker 2: on young women because if it has consequences for their 609 00:36:11,196 --> 00:36:13,636 Speaker 2: fertility than you have So what are you going to see? 610 00:36:13,956 --> 00:36:16,396 Speaker 2: Does so are we going to use are we going 611 00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:19,876 Speaker 2: to use postmen apausal women only? But that brings up 612 00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:22,076 Speaker 2: a whole different set of issues because now you have 613 00:36:22,116 --> 00:36:25,756 Speaker 2: an older population that's going to be less susceptible to 614 00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:29,676 Speaker 2: whatever risks you're exposing them to it's tricky. This reminds 615 00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:34,676 Speaker 2: me we talk in the season about magic wands experiments 616 00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 2: we could do if we could wave a magic wand 617 00:36:36,196 --> 00:36:38,356 Speaker 2: this one doesn't actually you require a magic wand, although 618 00:36:38,356 --> 00:36:40,116 Speaker 2: it would be very hard to do in the real world. 619 00:36:40,436 --> 00:36:47,796 Speaker 2: But you mentioned that natural experiment in Holland which gave 620 00:36:47,876 --> 00:36:51,196 Speaker 2: us information that would have been almost impossible to get 621 00:36:51,356 --> 00:36:53,716 Speaker 2: otherwise in a formal experiment. And it goes to the 622 00:36:53,796 --> 00:36:56,796 Speaker 2: larger point that this is the great thing about natural 623 00:36:56,836 --> 00:36:59,116 Speaker 2: experiments is that when you can find a good one, 624 00:36:59,756 --> 00:37:03,596 Speaker 2: they almost invariably tell you stuff that you could never 625 00:37:03,596 --> 00:37:06,636 Speaker 2: find out other way. They're incredibly productive kind of experiment. 626 00:37:07,036 --> 00:37:10,996 Speaker 2: So why can't we engineer actual experiments? So imagine this. 627 00:37:11,116 --> 00:37:15,476 Speaker 2: Imagine if someone came to you and me and a 628 00:37:15,516 --> 00:37:19,076 Speaker 2: million other people and said, we're at the stage now 629 00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:23,716 Speaker 2: in our in technology where we can put little sensors 630 00:37:23,716 --> 00:37:27,796 Speaker 2: on you which can continuously monitor every one of your 631 00:37:28,516 --> 00:37:32,556 Speaker 2: physiological signs and vital signs in real time. Would you 632 00:37:32,596 --> 00:37:38,636 Speaker 2: agree to be basically monitored for the next whatever ten 633 00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:42,836 Speaker 2: years and you and two million or ten million other 634 00:37:42,876 --> 00:37:45,876 Speaker 2: people agree to be part of this, and we will 635 00:37:46,756 --> 00:37:48,996 Speaker 2: we will simply wait and see what happens to you 636 00:37:49,836 --> 00:37:56,596 Speaker 2: and use that massive data set to kind of improve 637 00:37:56,596 --> 00:37:59,236 Speaker 2: our understanding of the kinds of things that lead to 638 00:37:59,276 --> 00:38:01,316 Speaker 2: various sorts of diseases. I mean, if you had ten 639 00:38:01,316 --> 00:38:03,716 Speaker 2: million people and they were giving you ten years of 640 00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:08,676 Speaker 2: their life and every conceivable indicator and vital sign was 641 00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:12,636 Speaker 2: being monitored on a moment to moment basis, you would 642 00:38:12,636 --> 00:38:16,036 Speaker 2: be able to understand stuff that right now we have 643 00:38:16,076 --> 00:38:18,676 Speaker 2: no clue about, right and all it takes is for 644 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:22,076 Speaker 2: people just they don't even take in a risk, They're 645 00:38:22,156 --> 00:38:25,716 Speaker 2: just being willing to be monitored and donate their data. 646 00:38:25,836 --> 00:38:28,876 Speaker 2: That's essentially engineering a natural experiment. I don't understand why 647 00:38:28,916 --> 00:38:33,036 Speaker 2: that hasn't been done. Privacy, no one who cares this 648 00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:35,596 Speaker 2: is don't even me started on privacy. Privacy drives me 649 00:38:36,116 --> 00:38:40,476 Speaker 2: just nuts. It's like, what an absurd thing in this 650 00:38:40,556 --> 00:38:44,476 Speaker 2: day and age to be concerned about. Like, basically, as 651 00:38:44,516 --> 00:38:46,876 Speaker 2: far as I can tell, every single fact about Malcolm 652 00:38:46,876 --> 00:38:50,396 Speaker 2: Glovel is known by like some combination of Facebook, Apple, 653 00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:52,036 Speaker 2: Google and someone else. 654 00:38:52,196 --> 00:38:54,756 Speaker 1: And so I meant to ask, Malcolm, what is your 655 00:38:55,036 --> 00:38:58,436 Speaker 1: mother's maiden name? I just have a few more questions. 656 00:38:58,556 --> 00:38:59,756 Speaker 1: Before we were at I. 657 00:38:59,956 --> 00:39:03,156 Speaker 2: Know it's like a ludicrous and so it's fine for 658 00:39:03,236 --> 00:39:06,636 Speaker 2: those guys to scour, you know, the Internet and put 659 00:39:06,636 --> 00:39:10,316 Speaker 2: together massive dossiers of everything, every fact about me. But somehow, 660 00:39:10,316 --> 00:39:13,476 Speaker 2: if I want to allow someone to peek into my 661 00:39:14,876 --> 00:39:17,756 Speaker 2: is it physiological, you know, for the benefit of mankind? 662 00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:20,636 Speaker 2: That's a problem. Just drives me crazy. 663 00:39:21,116 --> 00:39:23,196 Speaker 1: It is a problem, And I didn't know that I 664 00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:25,796 Speaker 1: hit a nerve with that one word privacy. But here 665 00:39:25,836 --> 00:39:29,596 Speaker 1: we are, so that I think is a nice place 666 00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:34,076 Speaker 1: to wrap up our starvation study, except for one final question. 667 00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:39,276 Speaker 1: One listener was really fascinated by the cinnamon role of 668 00:39:39,356 --> 00:39:43,116 Speaker 1: recipe from the episode of the Starvation Study Tara A. 669 00:39:43,396 --> 00:39:46,076 Speaker 1: She said, thank you for these episodes, Malcolm. So, Malcolm, 670 00:39:46,076 --> 00:39:48,876 Speaker 1: thank you for these episodes. Any chance you know how 671 00:39:48,916 --> 00:39:51,916 Speaker 1: we could track down that cinnamon roll recipe. I was 672 00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:54,356 Speaker 1: thinking would be nice to make some and share in 673 00:39:54,356 --> 00:39:58,516 Speaker 1: my community and for a refresher for listeners who don't 674 00:39:58,516 --> 00:40:00,396 Speaker 1: love cinnamon roles as much as I do. So did 675 00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:03,156 Speaker 1: it immediately light up at this detail. So there was 676 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:07,036 Speaker 1: a character in the episode, Lester Glick, who was part 677 00:40:07,036 --> 00:40:10,276 Speaker 1: of this study and one of the things that mentally 678 00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:12,916 Speaker 1: fortified him. Although I think for me it would have 679 00:40:12,956 --> 00:40:16,276 Speaker 1: probably had the opposite effect. As he carried around a 680 00:40:16,316 --> 00:40:19,796 Speaker 1: picture of a cinnamon roll and he had it with 681 00:40:19,876 --> 00:40:22,436 Speaker 1: him always, and it was something that kept him going. 682 00:40:22,796 --> 00:40:25,396 Speaker 2: And then later he would for the rest of his 683 00:40:25,436 --> 00:40:28,516 Speaker 2: life he would make them obsessively for family and friends, 684 00:40:28,836 --> 00:40:32,316 Speaker 2: by the dozens. It was the defining one of the 685 00:40:32,316 --> 00:40:34,476 Speaker 2: defining acts of the rest of his life. 686 00:40:34,596 --> 00:40:37,796 Speaker 1: Now, I love cinnamon rolls, so I also wanted to 687 00:40:37,836 --> 00:40:39,076 Speaker 1: track down that recipe. 688 00:40:39,236 --> 00:40:41,636 Speaker 2: We will post it online in all those brave souls 689 00:40:41,676 --> 00:40:45,556 Speaker 2: who want to recreate the famous cinnamon rolls can do that. 690 00:40:45,556 --> 00:40:48,196 Speaker 2: That was fun. Thank you, Maria. That's really fun, of course. 691 00:40:48,276 --> 00:40:58,876 Speaker 2: Thank you, Bye bye, Maria, Maria, Maria, thank you so 692 00:40:58,956 --> 00:41:01,676 Speaker 2: much for agreeing to take on the role of revisionist 693 00:41:01,716 --> 00:41:05,876 Speaker 2: histories inaugural homless person. Just so all of you know, 694 00:41:06,316 --> 00:41:08,556 Speaker 2: we hope to make Maria a regular on the show 695 00:41:08,556 --> 00:41:11,076 Speaker 2: in the future. You may have thought she went easy 696 00:41:11,116 --> 00:41:13,236 Speaker 2: on me this time. Let me just say I have 697 00:41:13,356 --> 00:41:17,356 Speaker 2: no expectation that will ever happen again. Oh, if you're 698 00:41:17,396 --> 00:41:19,916 Speaker 2: wondering why I said it takes bravery to make the 699 00:41:19,916 --> 00:41:23,516 Speaker 2: cinnamon rolls, let's just say the recipe involves among other 700 00:41:23,556 --> 00:41:28,516 Speaker 2: things mash potatoes. Go to our website and see for yourself, 701 00:41:28,996 --> 00:41:31,636 Speaker 2: and thank you to the Glick family for sharing that 702 00:41:31,716 --> 00:41:35,436 Speaker 2: with us. Maria will be back soon, So send your questions, 703 00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:39,516 Speaker 2: your challenges, your gripes, and your stories to all of 704 00:41:39,596 --> 00:41:43,956 Speaker 2: us at revisionististory dot com. Revision's History is produced by 705 00:41:44,036 --> 00:41:47,916 Speaker 2: Leaming Gestou, Amy gains Kiara Powell, and Jacob Smith. Our 706 00:41:47,956 --> 00:41:52,316 Speaker 2: showrunner is Peter Clowney. Original scoring by Luis Gara, mastering 707 00:41:52,436 --> 00:41:56,396 Speaker 2: by Sarah Braguaire and engineering by Nina Lawrence. Fact checking 708 00:41:56,556 --> 00:42:02,036 Speaker 2: by Mishelle Williams. Special thanks to Julia Barton. Subscribe to 709 00:42:02,076 --> 00:42:05,476 Speaker 2: pushkin plus to hear all our episodes of Revisionist History 710 00:42:05,716 --> 00:42:09,076 Speaker 2: add free, and as of this year, get our shows 711 00:42:09,196 --> 00:42:15,076 Speaker 2: two weeks earlier than the rest of the world. I'm 712 00:42:15,076 --> 00:42:15,756 Speaker 2: Malcolm Pampa.