WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Boy in the Box 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.600 Hey guys, Steve here, you are listening to one of 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.600 our original twenty six episodes. If you listen to any 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.280 of our new episodes, you're gonna notice that we're sounding 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.639 a little different in these ones. Yeah, there's a reason 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.480 for that. There is they've been remastered. They have been 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.040 remastered because they had a really annoying hum. Yeah, I 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.480 mean a huge thanks to listener James for doing almost 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.880 all of the legwork on this thing. They'll also notice 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:25.880 if you had listened to what we're calling the last 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.639 twenty six episodes before and you're re listening now, the 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.160 music and sound effects are gone. Yes, we've we've gone 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.720 back to straight audio, so be warned. We sound a 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.040 little different today than we do in what you're about 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:46.960 to listen to. Yeah, bye bye, Thinking Sideways. I don't 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:57.360 understand you never know stories of things we simply don't 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:03.160 know the answer to. Hi, welcome, This is Thinking Sideways 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.759 the podcast. I'm Devin. We're going to talk about another 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:13.720 mystery like we always do. Yeah, and this one, this 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.440 one is totally on my like par of things. I like, 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.560 you know, we've talked about this. I like weird mysterious 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.760 noises and weird mysterious deaths, and this is a weird 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.200 mysterious death. And I don't like this death. I don't 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:34.080 like like our Halloween episode. This one's pretty gruesome. It's 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.520 kind of heart wrenching. If you're squeamish at all, if 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.840 you've got kids, just skip this one. Seriously, skip this one, 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.920 you guys, Seriously, just skip this one. Okay. So the 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.600 mystery we're talking about tonight is the Boy in the 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.800 Box UM, which is also known as America's Unknown Child. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:59.080 So February seven, a young man is checking his muskrat 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:01.560 traps um and he spies a box from J. C. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.480 Penny that says it's got a bassinet in it. Upon 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.000 further inspection, he finds the body of a four year 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.000 old boy UM that was battered and bruised and wrapped 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.600 in a flannel blanket. He was afraid that his police 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.120 would confiscate his traps, so he didn't report it because 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.600 you don't report those things. Apparently, well, you know, those 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.120 traps are important. Yeah, So how did they find out 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.040 about this guy? Forward? Later? Yeah, he came forward after 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.800 it was reported. Um. So a few days later, a 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.960 college student said he spotted a rabbit running through the underbrush, 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:36.960 and knowing they were animal traps in the area, he 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.200 stopped his car to investigate and discovered the body. It 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.799 took him a day to come up with that story 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.080 and finally reported to the police because he was really 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.480 in the area spying on women at the Good Shepherd School, 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.360 he didn't so he took him a while to also 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.360 report it. Um didn't want to eventually admit that. The 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.960 only reason they came forward is because in confession, their 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.359 priests convinced him to come forward. I don't remember which 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.280 one of him it was. I suspected was the second 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.840 guy that he went and that would make sense. So, 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:09.639 but it only took him a day. The other guy 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:13.040 had found it a couple of days before that. So 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.040 the boy has never been identified and this case has 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.000 never been solved, which is unusual for four year old 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.800 to just go to die, to be highly publicized and 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.120 then just yeah, I would think that somebody would notice 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.480 it next the Jones family was missing a kid, for example, right. 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.679 So that was the thing was that initially the police thought, oh, well, 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:36.720 we've got this case late in the bag. You know, 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.920 obviously somebody's going to report a four year old boy missing, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.400 or someone will come forward and say, you know, this 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.080 is probably the work of a murderer. It probably wasn't 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.960 somebody that knew this child. You know, we'll just post 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.840 all these flyers around and say have you seen this boy, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.760 and that someone will come forward. And they put a 0:03:55.880 --> 0:04:00.480 lot of flyers, a lot of flyers out, thousands, and 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:04.200 nobody ever came forward. Ever. Did either of you look 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.280 at the pictures of the flyers, Yeah, we're up. Yeah, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.520 in this day and age, that flyer would never be 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.560 put up because it was it was of you know, 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.440 his h his dead face. Yeah, it was a little 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:22.080 gruesome picture picture of his head full straight forward and 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.160 then from either side. And then they also dressed him 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:27.680 and boys clothes of the time, sat him in a 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.200 chair and took pictures of him that way, hoping that 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.600 maybe if somebody had been a visitor in a home 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:34.920 they would recognize him more that way. You know, it's 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:36.960 kind of hard to tell what somebody looks like if 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.599 you've just got like a straight on picture. How did 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.000 you look at sitting in the chair. It was just 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:46.920 sort of like slump and it's kind of creepy with 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.040 his hands in his lap and just like very still. 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.240 You can tell he's a It looks like one of 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.200 those strange Halloween photos that you would see of people. 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.000 Where have you seen the ones where you walk by 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.320 him and they change from left right. It looks as 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.200 if it's the basis of one of those. I was 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.360 gonna say, it totally looks like one of those dummies 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.960 that people put out, like on their front during Halloween 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.000 to like scare people. Yeah, this one would definitely scare me. Yeah, 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.120 I would scare me too. So nobody ever reported a 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:20.480 missing child that fit this description, and there were thousands 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.600 of leads and they were all dead ends. Apparently a 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:26.560 bunch of people were saying, oh, yeah, that looks just 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.159 like my nephew. And to be fair, it's a pretty 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.560 average looking four year old boy. You know, anybody could say, oh, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.440 that looks like Johnny from down the street. I don't 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.120 wonder if he's dead. I haven't seen him in a 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:41.080 day because he's sick. Maybe that's him. Yeah. Yeah. The 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.960 investigators decided to focus on the bassinet box. The box 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.320 that he was found in um it was sold from J. C. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.640 Penny and they found it. They found the store that 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.240 it was sold from, which was an Upper Darby. Sorry, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.120 this is in Pennsylvania. I should have said, oh yeah, yeah, okay, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.520 I's on a dirt road they found it. But in Pennsylvania, 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.640 in Upper Derby, there was a J. C. Penny store 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.200 where they sold this baby bass net. They only sold twelve. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.680 This store had only sold twelve of this model, apparently, UM, 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:13.200 and they could trace all of them back to the 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.280 owner except for one, which is a little odd, right, 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.120 so obviously it was this one. UM. And then they 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.760 took fingerprints and footprints of the boys hands and feet 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:24.919 and sent them out to all of the hospitals in 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.479 the area, and then later they expanded that search to 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.680 Canada as well as the entire nation, and nothing ever 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:36.280 came back with that there there's never a match the 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:40.200 hospital to compare to birth certificates. Yeah yeah, to see 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.680 if they could figure out who this kid was and 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.640 for more more on that later. For reasons, they thought 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.160 that maybe they would have hospital records. But other than 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.159 the box in the blanket, they found a royal blue 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:56.800 corduroy men's cap in a trail leading directly from the 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:02.479 box into the forest, and it still had tissue paper 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.640 to maintain. The manufacturers shape I'm talking about. It was 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.280 almost basically brand new. It wasn't it was worn, but 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.640 it had been stuff like if you have a nice 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.240 hat and you put it back in a box, the 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.400 tissue back in it so that it holds its shape. Okay, okay, 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:23.680 I got it. The boy was described as having blue eyes, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.040 a fair complexion, and medium to light brown hair. But 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.240 it was very crudely cut, which made investigators think that 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.480 perhaps it had been cut after his death. It was 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:38.200 really choppy, well, and wasn't it didn't They find bits 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.160 of hair in the clothing and stuff around him that 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.120 you would suggest that it was cut just before just 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:50.240 after his death. Yes. His nails, however, were neatly trimmed, 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.680 which for a four year old is kind of rare. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.400 So they suspect that actually happened after his death as well. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.320 Think so, And you know, there's no way to really tell, 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.680 right and nails would they think that that happened after 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.520 his death as well? And he had kind of creepy 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.760 his hair, nai, Yeah, And he had deep bruises covering 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.920 all of his body and face. And the weather had 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.080 been cold Pennsylvania in February, So they said that the 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.120 child could have been in the box from anywhere between 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.480 two or three days to two or three weeks. Oh wow, 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:25.520 that really makes it kind of hard to figure out. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.200 That's really hard to narrow down a time frame. Yeah, 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.480 it was really cool that. I mean, it makes sense. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.920 A body is preserved, nothing's going to decompose because it's 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.200 too cold but still and it's not snowing. It's just 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.040 cold and dry. You know, that's perfect body preservation. So 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.920 as he was the box sealed, was it closed, the 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.079 top was open, the top was just open critters like 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.880 muskrats for example. So I would assume that it were 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.760 it was less time, especially since two people within a 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:58.240 fairly short time spin discovered it. That you would assume 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.800 that if that, if it was traveled that much, that 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.960 there would be more people finding it earlier. Yeah, so 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.440 I assume that it was shorter rather than longer time frame. 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:08.920 But you know, we don't know. So some more things 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.120 about him. He had seven scars they recounted, uh, three 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.760 of which were clean enough to be surgical scars that 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.840 had happened in a hospital or from a doctor. Two 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.640 of them were on his chest and groin. They had 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.800 healed quote quite well, leaving only hairline traces um. And 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.600 there was another scar on his left ankle, which they 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.520 said looked like a cut down incision, which is something 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.720 they used to do to do transfusions to get to 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.560 a big vein. They would cut down this is so gross, 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.079 I'm so sorry, cut down a big chunk of your 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.520 ankle to get to a big vein and stick a 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.559 needle in that to do blood transfusions. Oh, basically peel 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:48.640 all the skin back so you can get two things 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.559 easier rather than trying to find him with the needle, right, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.000 And you would do that, you know, on the ankle, 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.839 so that you know that's a it's a fast place 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.800 to heal. And also if you have a scar on 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.880 your ankle, it's not like it's just figuring anything well. 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.560 And the veins are easier to get to in an ankle, Say, 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.319 if you're going to cut down in somebody's in a 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.480 form and the body step that's there's a lot of 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:15.320 tendency to have bad things happen. So yeah, absolutely so yeah. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.640 So anyway, he's had two scars on the groin and 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:19.800 the other one scar on his growing in, one scar 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.280 on his chest that were of surgical origin. Ostensibly um 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.040 and then he had a one and a half inch 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.040 scar on the left side of his chest and around 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.160 kind of irregular scar on his left elbow, and there 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.199 was an L shaped scar on his chin that was 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.480 about a quarter of an inch long in each direction. 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:41.800 It's poor little kid had kind of a rough go. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.720 Did they consult any surgeons about the surgical scars? I 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.040 mean yes, but there's not much to be said about them. 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.920 They're just there was no record record or anything like that. 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.200 They didn't know who he was, so well, it would 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.240 be it would be useful probably to try to find out, 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.880 you know, to a surgeon, and he would well that 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.320 he was he was being operated on for his appendix 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.719 because of the roan thingor something to do with his 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.040 heart or whatever, or you know, I mean, you could 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.439 identify the procedure that was done. Sure, I don't think 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.480 they were a descript of any kind in terms of that. 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.679 They said that he didn't have any vaccination scars, so 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.920 he wasn't vaccinated, and he had been circumcised. You know, 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:24.760 all of these things kind of seemed like he should 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.040 have at least once visited the hospital well cared for. 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.760 I mean, aside from the fact that somebody gave him 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.920 a serious beating. Yah, it sounds like he got medical 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.720 care at least at least at some point in his life. Right. 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.760 So they also did an ultraviolet light on his whole 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.079 entire body, and they said that his left eye fluoresced 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.439 a brilliant blue, which suggested that some kind of diagnostic 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.120 dye had been applied, that maybe he had some kind 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.479 of chronic eye ailment of some sort and his left eye. Oh, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.360 so that like basically something they would do when you 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.560 go to the eye doctor to get tested for a 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.960 stigmatism or something. I guess, you know, I think the 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.000 impression that I have is that it was more as 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.640 like a treatment, like he would be needing eye drops 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.640 for some kind of something that was wrong with his eye, 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.520 although what that might have been, I don't know. And 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.079 you know, you have to keep in mind, this boy's 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.040 four years old. This is a lot of stuff to 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:24.000 be happening to have four year old. And then, as 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.840 we've said, you know, he was beaten to death and 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.800 then just kind of discarded. Did they do and say 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:32.640 was that the cause of death. The cause of death 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:34.240 was blunt force trauma to the head. It was for 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.480 the They said it was four hard blows to the head. 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:43.520 So here's some more kind of interesting facts. His one 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.359 of his hands and both of his feet had been wrinkled, 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.360 which in a way that like pruned, like when they're 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.959 submerged in water. It pretty skin. Yeah, so they had 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.640 been submerged in water, maybe for an extended period of 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.160 time just before he died, because that apparently doesn't happen 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.040 if you're dead. Your skin doesn't actually prune up, it 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.960 bloats up instead. And two hands, one hand, but not 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.360 the skin above. That was relatively normal as far as 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.800 they could tell. Well, that's weird. Weird. Get how do 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.839 you get those in the water and nothing else? I 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:25.360 don't know. He uh, probably had not eaten three to 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.880 four hours before death, although his esophagus contained a dark 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.000 brown residue, which indicated that he probably vomited shortly before death. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.160 If it is indeed that somebody you know wailed on 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.800 him a lot, which is obviously what it seems like, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.480 then it would be perceivable that that would have caused 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.120 him to the row up. Yeah. Additionally, he was severely malnourished, 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.320 so you know, for all of the good care that 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.160 it seems he may have had. It also seems he 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.680 may not have had. Well, you got such a good care. 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:56.360 We maybe got good care at one point, and that 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.400 was handed up for somebody else who abused the hell 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.840 out of him. Yeah. So there's I'm actually pretty interesting theories, 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.160 one of which definitely ties into that sort of idea 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.280 that he was at one point cared for very well 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.280 in his life and then came into bad times with 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.560 a different family. But first I want to talk about 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.480 the foster home theory, which is there was a foster 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.480 home there was located like a mile and a half 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.640 away from where he was found, um, and they had 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.720 kids that were all school aged kids they were fostering. 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.840 There was a step daughter that lived there, um, and 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.520 she was twenty, and the theory was that perhaps it 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.440 was her child out of wedlock because you know, seven, 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.800 that was still kind of a big thing, um, and 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.080 that they had tried to care for him, but he 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.480 was just so sickly, you know, given all of these things, 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.200 that they eventually just decided that he needed to die. 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.000 So they beat him to death and then dropped his body, 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.000 which seems unlikely to me. I guess it seems unlikely 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.960 that people who foster kids were just as kids. Sucks. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.720 Let's just beat him to death. I mean, that's gotta 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.560 be better way to have. But I've I've read accounts 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.080 and I don't know if if this is you know 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.520 something that we're going to go over about the step 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:14.840 daughter and the relationship with the quote unquote father in 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:19.800 the house, because that was a very weird thing, and 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.360 it was it was very weird. Um. They they were 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.800 doing all these investigations in seven and they reopened the 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:34.840 case in there was this detective named bristow Um and 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:39.760 he doggedly attacked this. He just wanted to know everything 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:41.200 there was to know and he never let it go. 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.280 It was like his career passion was this case. Now, 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.360 how did he come under the case? Was he one 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.120 of the first investigators or was he the fingerprint guy? 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.680 He was the fingerprint guy. Okay, so that was He's 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.720 the one who had to do when they were doing 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.680 the fingerprints and the footprints. If I remember in the reading, 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.720 that's when the story really stuck with him and he couldn't. Yeah, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.960 he was. He was an interesting character. He would go 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.720 visit the grave once a week and yeah, I think 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.360 you kind of This is the sort of case that 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.360 if it if it hits you and you're there, it 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.240 hits you and it's part of your life forever. But 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:18.840 it's uh, he must have been on the force a 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:20.960 hell of a long time, because thirty one years between 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:25.240 nineteen fifty seven and nyeh exes me forty one years 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.480 when I'm saying yes. So, when they reopened the case 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:33.120 in police lieutended by the name of Tom Augustine took 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.480 charge of the investigation, and he went back to this 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.360 Foster home because they exhumed the body and took some 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.240 DNA and they figured, oh, just go test this girl 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.720 for DNA and if it matches, then we've got our answer. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:47.440 And that's super easy because you know, we couldn't do 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.320 that in seven. And they went back and they said, um, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.200 you know, we're looking for so and so and the 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.320 you know, the father and the step daughter. And he said, oh, 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:05.480 she's my wife now, yeah, yeah, And that's why the 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.320 DNA obviously proves that it wasn't them. But still it 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:11.080 leads me to think that there's got to be some 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.959 stuff that was going on in that household. I agree, Yeah, 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.960 he doesn't explain the story, but yeah, they're still kind 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.600 of weird going on there. So the other theory, one 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.960 of the other theories is they referred to it as 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.760 the M theory, and in a lot of sources they 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.880 only referred to her as m. Her name was Mary Um, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.080 and she was this woman and she brought it her 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.200 theory forward in two thousand two, she said that her 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:42.800 abusive mother purchased an unknown boy named Jonathan from her 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.280 from his birth parents in nineteen fifty four, basically to 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:53.440 have a beating bag. Yeah, it's I mean, it's pretty rough. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.200 Her story is, she said, you know that, Mary said 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:01.760 that her mom suggested Jonathan to extreme physical and sexual 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.080 abuse for two and a half years, and then Um, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.239 in a fit of rage, killed him by slamming him 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.120 into the floor after he vomited in the bathtub. Mary's 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.600 mother then cut the boy's long hair and dropped him 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.320 just on the then secluded Fox Chase area, which is 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.280 where they found him and correct me if I'm wrong. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.360 At the time, that was like a one laying ground 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.760 that was kind of a dump area that it would 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.520 just take their stuff. That was kind of one of 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.119 the things that was so disturbing in this. You know, 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.000 some people say, well, he was kind of he was 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.600 being prepared for a burial. That's why his hair was cut, 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:42.080 his nails were trimmed. He was found with his arms 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.800 crossed in this like and wrapped in a shroud, you know, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.600 and that somebody was taking him to bury him and 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.080 they got spooked because there were people around, so they 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.639 just dropped him. But you know the area he was 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.840 dropped in, it was this place that was known as 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.440 a dumping ground. You know, people would just go dump 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.160 their rubbing is on this little side track of road, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:04.960 which is just you know, kind of adds another layer 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:10.320 of sadness to this story. Or yea, you know, he 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:14.399 was just kind of dumped unceremoniously. And yes he was 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:16.560 you know, wrapped in a shroud and all that stuff. 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:22.119 But yeah, it's pretty pretty creepy. Yeah. So Mary would 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.520 have been twelves when it happened, and she recounted the story. Um, 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.840 and apparently it took her three hours to tell it, 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.200 and she said she had quirky little details. Quirky is 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.160 not the right word, but she had details like, um, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.440 the boy had thrown up after eating some baked beans 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.600 and her mother was enraged with the mess so she 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.840 threw the boy into a bathtub and beat him um, 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.359 which would have accounted for why some some of his 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:53.560 appendages were super wet and others weren't. And that she 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.800 said that she had only ever heard the boy utter 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.800 any noises and it was one shriek at his death. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.280 So yeah, it's pretty rough story. I don't want to 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.959 go too into detail. The whole problem that they have 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:12.439 with the story is that Mary has a history of 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:16.399 mental illness, not very reliant. It's not he's she's not 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:21.240 very reliable, although her psychiatrists believe that she's sincere. First 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.560 they've interviewed her hundreds of times and her story has 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.200 never changed, which is pretty rare for somebody who's making 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.840 a story up with mental disabilities like hers. So, but 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.760 there's there's been many cases of folks who have an 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.440 illness like that, a mental illness, who convinced themselves off 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.040 and they're very sincere and they believe it. And you know, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.359 it might be that in some way she's got savant 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.840 is the wrong word, but she's able to just make 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.919 something up and memorize that exactly. You know, I'm not 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:56.000 discounting her version of what it could be but if 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.040 you try to explain it away, We've seen a lot 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:04.080 of evidence in the world of folks who who were 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.400 in that stage. Yeah. Additionally, you know, they went back 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.200 to her old neighborhood and tried to interview her neighbors 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.119 and they all said, no, there was never a boy here, which, 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.560 on the one hand, well, they might have kept him 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:18.760 under wraps. You think, you know, if you buy a 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.040 kid to beat on, right, you're not going to be 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:27.560 walking him around the neighborhood. Yeah, but something. So, why 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.840 did she choose that particular time to come forward? And 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.560 had her mother finally died? Her parents had died a 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.480 long time ago, so she had a dad also living 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.120 in the house. Yeah, So I'm not totally sure what 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:43.359 that whole situation is. It's disturbing if it's true. For sure, Well, 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.440 there's people that do that kind of stuff. There are 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.600 that's true that she did. Anybody ask Mary what happened 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.520 after the boy died in terms of what happened to her? 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.320 Did she become the punching bag then and they go 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.280 find another kid? But they don't talk about that at 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.119 least in any of the stories. Um, but I would assume, 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.120 you know, she was twelve when they purchased the kids. 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:05.639 So I would assume that either she had already been 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.040 the punching bag and was continued to be the punching bag, 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:10.960 or they found another outlet. You know, it was never married, 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:12.600