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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Steve here, you are listening to one of

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Speaker 1: our original twenty six episodes. If you listen to any

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Speaker 1: of our new episodes, you're gonna notice that we're sounding

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Speaker 1: a little different in these ones. Yeah, there's a reason

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Speaker 1: for that. There is they've been remastered. They have been

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Speaker 1: remastered because they had a really annoying hum. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean a huge thanks to listener James for doing almost

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Speaker 1: all of the legwork on this thing. They'll also notice

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Speaker 1: if you had listened to what we're calling the last

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Speaker 1: twenty six episodes before and you're re listening now, the

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Speaker 1: music and sound effects are gone. Yes, we've we've gone

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Speaker 1: back to straight audio, so be warned. We sound a

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Speaker 1: little different today than we do in what you're about

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Speaker 1: to listen to. Yeah, bye bye, Thinking Sideways. I don't

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Speaker 1: understand you never know stories of things we simply don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer to. Hi, welcome, This is Thinking Sideways

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Devin. We're going to talk about another

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Speaker 1: mystery like we always do. Yeah, and this one, this

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Speaker 1: one is totally on my like par of things. I like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about this. I like weird mysterious

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Speaker 1: noises and weird mysterious deaths, and this is a weird

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Speaker 1: mysterious death. And I don't like this death. I don't

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Speaker 1: like like our Halloween episode. This one's pretty gruesome. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of heart wrenching. If you're squeamish at all, if

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Speaker 1: you've got kids, just skip this one. Seriously, skip this one,

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Speaker 1: you guys, Seriously, just skip this one. Okay. So the

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Speaker 1: mystery we're talking about tonight is the Boy in the

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Speaker 1: Box UM, which is also known as America's Unknown Child.

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Speaker 1: So February seven, a young man is checking his muskrat

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Speaker 1: traps um and he spies a box from J. C.

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Speaker 1: Penny that says it's got a bassinet in it. Upon

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Speaker 1: further inspection, he finds the body of a four year

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Speaker 1: old boy UM that was battered and bruised and wrapped

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Speaker 1: in a flannel blanket. He was afraid that his police

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Speaker 1: would confiscate his traps, so he didn't report it because

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Speaker 1: you don't report those things. Apparently, well, you know, those

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Speaker 1: traps are important. Yeah, So how did they find out

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Speaker 1: about this guy? Forward? Later? Yeah, he came forward after

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Speaker 1: it was reported. Um. So a few days later, a

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Speaker 1: college student said he spotted a rabbit running through the underbrush,

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Speaker 1: and knowing they were animal traps in the area, he

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Speaker 1: stopped his car to investigate and discovered the body. It

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Speaker 1: took him a day to come up with that story

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Speaker 1: and finally reported to the police because he was really

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Speaker 1: in the area spying on women at the Good Shepherd School,

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Speaker 1: he didn't so he took him a while to also

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Speaker 1: report it. Um didn't want to eventually admit that. The

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Speaker 1: only reason they came forward is because in confession, their

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Speaker 1: priests convinced him to come forward. I don't remember which

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Speaker 1: one of him it was. I suspected was the second

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Speaker 1: guy that he went and that would make sense. So,

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Speaker 1: but it only took him a day. The other guy

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Speaker 1: had found it a couple of days before that. So

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Speaker 1: the boy has never been identified and this case has

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Speaker 1: never been solved, which is unusual for four year old

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Speaker 1: to just go to die, to be highly publicized and

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Speaker 1: then just yeah, I would think that somebody would notice

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Speaker 1: it next the Jones family was missing a kid, for example, right.

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Speaker 1: So that was the thing was that initially the police thought, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we've got this case late in the bag. You know,

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Speaker 1: obviously somebody's going to report a four year old boy missing,

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Speaker 1: or someone will come forward and say, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is probably the work of a murderer. It probably wasn't

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Speaker 1: somebody that knew this child. You know, we'll just post

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Speaker 1: all these flyers around and say have you seen this boy,

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Speaker 1: and that someone will come forward. And they put a

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Speaker 1: lot of flyers, a lot of flyers out, thousands, and

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Speaker 1: nobody ever came forward. Ever. Did either of you look

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Speaker 1: at the pictures of the flyers, Yeah, we're up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in this day and age, that flyer would never be

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Speaker 1: put up because it was it was of you know,

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Speaker 1: his h his dead face. Yeah, it was a little

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Speaker 1: gruesome picture picture of his head full straight forward and

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Speaker 1: then from either side. And then they also dressed him

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Speaker 1: and boys clothes of the time, sat him in a

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Speaker 1: chair and took pictures of him that way, hoping that

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Speaker 1: maybe if somebody had been a visitor in a home

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Speaker 1: they would recognize him more that way. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of hard to tell what somebody looks like if

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Speaker 1: you've just got like a straight on picture. How did

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Speaker 1: you look at sitting in the chair. It was just

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Speaker 1: sort of like slump and it's kind of creepy with

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Speaker 1: his hands in his lap and just like very still.

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Speaker 1: You can tell he's a It looks like one of

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Speaker 1: those strange Halloween photos that you would see of people.

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Speaker 1: Where have you seen the ones where you walk by

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Speaker 1: him and they change from left right. It looks as

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Speaker 1: if it's the basis of one of those. I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say, it totally looks like one of those dummies

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Speaker 1: that people put out, like on their front during Halloween

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Speaker 1: to like scare people. Yeah, this one would definitely scare me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would scare me too. So nobody ever reported a

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Speaker 1: missing child that fit this description, and there were thousands

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Speaker 1: of leads and they were all dead ends. Apparently a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people were saying, oh, yeah, that looks just

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Speaker 1: like my nephew. And to be fair, it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: average looking four year old boy. You know, anybody could say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that looks like Johnny from down the street. I don't

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Speaker 1: wonder if he's dead. I haven't seen him in a

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Speaker 1: day because he's sick. Maybe that's him. Yeah. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: investigators decided to focus on the bassinet box. The box

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Speaker 1: that he was found in um it was sold from J. C.

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Speaker 1: Penny and they found it. They found the store that

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Speaker 1: it was sold from, which was an Upper Darby. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: this is in Pennsylvania. I should have said, oh yeah, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: I's on a dirt road they found it. But in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: in Upper Derby, there was a J. C. Penny store

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Speaker 1: where they sold this baby bass net. They only sold twelve.

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Speaker 1: This store had only sold twelve of this model, apparently, UM,

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Speaker 1: and they could trace all of them back to the

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Speaker 1: owner except for one, which is a little odd, right,

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Speaker 1: so obviously it was this one. UM. And then they

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Speaker 1: took fingerprints and footprints of the boys hands and feet

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Speaker 1: and sent them out to all of the hospitals in

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Speaker 1: the area, and then later they expanded that search to

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Speaker 1: Canada as well as the entire nation, and nothing ever

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Speaker 1: came back with that there there's never a match the

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Speaker 1: hospital to compare to birth certificates. Yeah yeah, to see

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Speaker 1: if they could figure out who this kid was and

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Speaker 1: for more more on that later. For reasons, they thought

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Speaker 1: that maybe they would have hospital records. But other than

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Speaker 1: the box in the blanket, they found a royal blue

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Speaker 1: corduroy men's cap in a trail leading directly from the

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Speaker 1: box into the forest, and it still had tissue paper

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Speaker 1: to maintain. The manufacturers shape I'm talking about. It was

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Speaker 1: almost basically brand new. It wasn't it was worn, but

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Speaker 1: it had been stuff like if you have a nice

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Speaker 1: hat and you put it back in a box, the

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Speaker 1: tissue back in it so that it holds its shape. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: I got it. The boy was described as having blue eyes,

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Speaker 1: a fair complexion, and medium to light brown hair. But

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Speaker 1: it was very crudely cut, which made investigators think that

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Speaker 1: perhaps it had been cut after his death. It was

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Speaker 1: really choppy, well, and wasn't it didn't They find bits

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Speaker 1: of hair in the clothing and stuff around him that

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Speaker 1: you would suggest that it was cut just before just

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Speaker 1: after his death. Yes. His nails, however, were neatly trimmed,

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Speaker 1: which for a four year old is kind of rare.

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Speaker 1: So they suspect that actually happened after his death as well.

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Speaker 1: Think so, And you know, there's no way to really tell,

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Speaker 1: right and nails would they think that that happened after

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Speaker 1: his death as well? And he had kind of creepy

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Speaker 1: his hair, nai, Yeah, And he had deep bruises covering

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Speaker 1: all of his body and face. And the weather had

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Speaker 1: been cold Pennsylvania in February, So they said that the

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Speaker 1: child could have been in the box from anywhere between

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Speaker 1: two or three days to two or three weeks. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: that really makes it kind of hard to figure out.

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Speaker 1: That's really hard to narrow down a time frame. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was really cool that. I mean, it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: A body is preserved, nothing's going to decompose because it's

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Speaker 1: too cold but still and it's not snowing. It's just

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Speaker 1: cold and dry. You know, that's perfect body preservation. So

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Speaker 1: as he was the box sealed, was it closed, the

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Speaker 1: top was open, the top was just open critters like

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Speaker 1: muskrats for example. So I would assume that it were

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Speaker 1: it was less time, especially since two people within a

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Speaker 1: fairly short time spin discovered it. That you would assume

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Speaker 1: that if that, if it was traveled that much, that

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Speaker 1: there would be more people finding it earlier. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I assume that it was shorter rather than longer time frame.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we don't know. So some more things

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Speaker 1: about him. He had seven scars they recounted, uh, three

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Speaker 1: of which were clean enough to be surgical scars that

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Speaker 1: had happened in a hospital or from a doctor. Two

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Speaker 1: of them were on his chest and groin. They had

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Speaker 1: healed quote quite well, leaving only hairline traces um. And

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Speaker 1: there was another scar on his left ankle, which they

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Speaker 1: said looked like a cut down incision, which is something

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Speaker 1: they used to do to do transfusions to get to

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Speaker 1: a big vein. They would cut down this is so gross,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, cut down a big chunk of your

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Speaker 1: ankle to get to a big vein and stick a

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Speaker 1: needle in that to do blood transfusions. Oh, basically peel

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Speaker 1: all the skin back so you can get two things

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Speaker 1: easier rather than trying to find him with the needle, right,

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Speaker 1: And you would do that, you know, on the ankle,

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Speaker 1: so that you know that's a it's a fast place

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Speaker 1: to heal. And also if you have a scar on

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Speaker 1: your ankle, it's not like it's just figuring anything well.

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Speaker 1: And the veins are easier to get to in an ankle, Say,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to cut down in somebody's in a

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Speaker 1: form and the body step that's there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: tendency to have bad things happen. So yeah, absolutely so yeah.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, he's had two scars on the groin and

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Speaker 1: the other one scar on his growing in, one scar

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Speaker 1: on his chest that were of surgical origin. Ostensibly um

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Speaker 1: and then he had a one and a half inch

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Speaker 1: scar on the left side of his chest and around

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Speaker 1: kind of irregular scar on his left elbow, and there

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Speaker 1: was an L shaped scar on his chin that was

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Speaker 1: about a quarter of an inch long in each direction.

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Speaker 1: It's poor little kid had kind of a rough go.

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Speaker 1: Did they consult any surgeons about the surgical scars? I

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Speaker 1: mean yes, but there's not much to be said about them.

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Speaker 1: They're just there was no record record or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know who he was, so well, it would

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Speaker 1: be it would be useful probably to try to find out,

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Speaker 1: you know, to a surgeon, and he would well that

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Speaker 1: he was he was being operated on for his appendix

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Speaker 1: because of the roan thingor something to do with his

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Speaker 1: heart or whatever, or you know, I mean, you could

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Speaker 1: identify the procedure that was done. Sure, I don't think

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Speaker 1: they were a descript of any kind in terms of that.

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Speaker 1: They said that he didn't have any vaccination scars, so

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Speaker 1: he wasn't vaccinated, and he had been circumcised. You know,

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Speaker 1: all of these things kind of seemed like he should

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Speaker 1: have at least once visited the hospital well cared for.

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Speaker 1: I mean, aside from the fact that somebody gave him

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Speaker 1: a serious beating. Yah, it sounds like he got medical

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Speaker 1: care at least at least at some point in his life. Right.

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Speaker 1: So they also did an ultraviolet light on his whole

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Speaker 1: entire body, and they said that his left eye fluoresced

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Speaker 1: a brilliant blue, which suggested that some kind of diagnostic

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Speaker 1: dye had been applied, that maybe he had some kind

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Speaker 1: of chronic eye ailment of some sort and his left eye. Oh,

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Speaker 1: so that like basically something they would do when you

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Speaker 1: go to the eye doctor to get tested for a

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Speaker 1: stigmatism or something. I guess, you know, I think the

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Speaker 1: impression that I have is that it was more as

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Speaker 1: like a treatment, like he would be needing eye drops

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Speaker 1: for some kind of something that was wrong with his eye,

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Speaker 1: although what that might have been, I don't know. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you have to keep in mind, this boy's

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Speaker 1: four years old. This is a lot of stuff to

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Speaker 1: be happening to have four year old. And then, as

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Speaker 1: we've said, you know, he was beaten to death and

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Speaker 1: then just kind of discarded. Did they do and say

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Speaker 1: was that the cause of death. The cause of death

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Speaker 1: was blunt force trauma to the head. It was for

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Speaker 1: the They said it was four hard blows to the head.

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Speaker 1: So here's some more kind of interesting facts. His one

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Speaker 1: of his hands and both of his feet had been wrinkled,

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Speaker 1: which in a way that like pruned, like when they're

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Speaker 1: submerged in water. It pretty skin. Yeah, so they had

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Speaker 1: been submerged in water, maybe for an extended period of

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Speaker 1: time just before he died, because that apparently doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: if you're dead. Your skin doesn't actually prune up, it

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Speaker 1: bloats up instead. And two hands, one hand, but not

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Speaker 1: the skin above. That was relatively normal as far as

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Speaker 1: they could tell. Well, that's weird. Weird. Get how do

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Speaker 1: you get those in the water and nothing else? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. He uh, probably had not eaten three to

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Speaker 1: four hours before death, although his esophagus contained a dark

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Speaker 1: brown residue, which indicated that he probably vomited shortly before death.

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Speaker 1: If it is indeed that somebody you know wailed on

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Speaker 1: him a lot, which is obviously what it seems like,

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Speaker 1: then it would be perceivable that that would have caused

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Speaker 1: him to the row up. Yeah. Additionally, he was severely malnourished,

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Speaker 1: so you know, for all of the good care that

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Speaker 1: it seems he may have had. It also seems he

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Speaker 1: may not have had. Well, you got such a good care.

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Speaker 1: We maybe got good care at one point, and that

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Speaker 1: was handed up for somebody else who abused the hell

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Speaker 1: out of him. Yeah. So there's I'm actually pretty interesting theories,

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Speaker 1: one of which definitely ties into that sort of idea

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Speaker 1: that he was at one point cared for very well

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Speaker 1: in his life and then came into bad times with

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Speaker 1: a different family. But first I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the foster home theory, which is there was a foster

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Speaker 1: home there was located like a mile and a half

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Speaker 1: away from where he was found, um, and they had

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Speaker 1: kids that were all school aged kids they were fostering.

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Speaker 1: There was a step daughter that lived there, um, and

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Speaker 1: she was twenty, and the theory was that perhaps it

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Speaker 1: was her child out of wedlock because you know, seven,

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Speaker 1: that was still kind of a big thing, um, and

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Speaker 1: that they had tried to care for him, but he

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Speaker 1: was just so sickly, you know, given all of these things,

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Speaker 1: that they eventually just decided that he needed to die.

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Speaker 1: So they beat him to death and then dropped his body,

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Speaker 1: which seems unlikely to me. I guess it seems unlikely

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Speaker 1: that people who foster kids were just as kids. Sucks.

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Speaker 1: Let's just beat him to death. I mean, that's gotta

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Speaker 1: be better way to have. But I've I've read accounts

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if if this is you know

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Speaker 1: something that we're going to go over about the step

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Speaker 1: daughter and the relationship with the quote unquote father in

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Speaker 1: the house, because that was a very weird thing, and

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Speaker 1: it was it was very weird. Um. They they were

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Speaker 1: doing all these investigations in seven and they reopened the

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Speaker 1: case in there was this detective named bristow Um and

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Speaker 1: he doggedly attacked this. He just wanted to know everything

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Speaker 1: there was to know and he never let it go.

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Speaker 1: It was like his career passion was this case. Now,

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Speaker 1: how did he come under the case? Was he one

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Speaker 1: of the first investigators or was he the fingerprint guy?

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Speaker 1: He was the fingerprint guy. Okay, so that was He's

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Speaker 1: the one who had to do when they were doing

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Speaker 1: the fingerprints and the footprints. If I remember in the reading,

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Speaker 1: that's when the story really stuck with him and he couldn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was. He was an interesting character. He would go

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Speaker 1: visit the grave once a week and yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: you kind of This is the sort of case that

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Speaker 1: if it if it hits you and you're there, it

296
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Speaker 1: hits you and it's part of your life forever. But

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Speaker 1: it's uh, he must have been on the force a

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Speaker 1: hell of a long time, because thirty one years between

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven and nyeh exes me forty one years

300
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Speaker 1: when I'm saying yes. So, when they reopened the case

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Speaker 1: in police lieutended by the name of Tom Augustine took

302
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Speaker 1: charge of the investigation, and he went back to this

303
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Speaker 1: Foster home because they exhumed the body and took some

304
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Speaker 1: DNA and they figured, oh, just go test this girl

305
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Speaker 1: for DNA and if it matches, then we've got our answer.

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Speaker 1: And that's super easy because you know, we couldn't do

307
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Speaker 1: that in seven. And they went back and they said, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're looking for so and so and the

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Speaker 1: you know, the father and the step daughter. And he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's my wife now, yeah, yeah, And that's why the

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Speaker 1: DNA obviously proves that it wasn't them. But still it

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Speaker 1: leads me to think that there's got to be some

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Speaker 1: stuff that was going on in that household. I agree, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't explain the story, but yeah, they're still kind

315
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Speaker 1: of weird going on there. So the other theory, one

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Speaker 1: of the other theories is they referred to it as

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Speaker 1: the M theory, and in a lot of sources they

318
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Speaker 1: only referred to her as m. Her name was Mary Um,

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Speaker 1: and she was this woman and she brought it her

320
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Speaker 1: theory forward in two thousand two, she said that her

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Speaker 1: abusive mother purchased an unknown boy named Jonathan from her

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Speaker 1: from his birth parents in nineteen fifty four, basically to

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Speaker 1: have a beating bag. Yeah, it's I mean, it's pretty rough.

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Speaker 1: Her story is, she said, you know that, Mary said

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Speaker 1: that her mom suggested Jonathan to extreme physical and sexual

326
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Speaker 1: abuse for two and a half years, and then Um,

327
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Speaker 1: in a fit of rage, killed him by slamming him

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Speaker 1: into the floor after he vomited in the bathtub. Mary's

329
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Speaker 1: mother then cut the boy's long hair and dropped him

330
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Speaker 1: just on the then secluded Fox Chase area, which is

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Speaker 1: where they found him and correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: At the time, that was like a one laying ground

333
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Speaker 1: that was kind of a dump area that it would

334
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Speaker 1: just take their stuff. That was kind of one of

335
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,119
Speaker 1: the things that was so disturbing in this. You know,

336
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Speaker 1: some people say, well, he was kind of he was

337
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: being prepared for a burial. That's why his hair was cut,

338
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Speaker 1: his nails were trimmed. He was found with his arms

339
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Speaker 1: crossed in this like and wrapped in a shroud, you know,

340
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 1: and that somebody was taking him to bury him and

341
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: they got spooked because there were people around, so they

342
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Speaker 1: just dropped him. But you know the area he was

343
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Speaker 1: dropped in, it was this place that was known as

344
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Speaker 1: a dumping ground. You know, people would just go dump

345
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Speaker 1: their rubbing is on this little side track of road,

346
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 1: which is just you know, kind of adds another layer

347
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: of sadness to this story. Or yea, you know, he

348
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,399
Speaker 1: was just kind of dumped unceremoniously. And yes he was

349
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Speaker 1: you know, wrapped in a shroud and all that stuff.

350
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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's pretty pretty creepy. Yeah. So Mary would

351
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Speaker 1: have been twelves when it happened, and she recounted the story. Um,

352
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Speaker 1: and apparently it took her three hours to tell it,

353
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Speaker 1: and she said she had quirky little details. Quirky is

354
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 1: not the right word, but she had details like, um,

355
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Speaker 1: the boy had thrown up after eating some baked beans

356
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Speaker 1: and her mother was enraged with the mess so she

357
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 1: threw the boy into a bathtub and beat him um,

358
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Speaker 1: which would have accounted for why some some of his

359
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 1: appendages were super wet and others weren't. And that she

360
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 1: said that she had only ever heard the boy utter

361
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Speaker 1: any noises and it was one shriek at his death.

362
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's pretty rough story. I don't want to

363
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,959
Speaker 1: go too into detail. The whole problem that they have

364
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Speaker 1: with the story is that Mary has a history of

365
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 1: mental illness, not very reliant. It's not he's she's not

366
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Speaker 1: very reliable, although her psychiatrists believe that she's sincere. First

367
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Speaker 1: they've interviewed her hundreds of times and her story has

368
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 1: never changed, which is pretty rare for somebody who's making

369
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Speaker 1: a story up with mental disabilities like hers. So, but

370
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Speaker 1: there's there's been many cases of folks who have an

371
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Speaker 1: illness like that, a mental illness, who convinced themselves off

372
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Speaker 1: and they're very sincere and they believe it. And you know,

373
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Speaker 1: it might be that in some way she's got savant

374
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: is the wrong word, but she's able to just make

375
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Speaker 1: something up and memorize that exactly. You know, I'm not

376
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Speaker 1: discounting her version of what it could be but if

377
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: you try to explain it away, We've seen a lot

378
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: of evidence in the world of folks who who were

379
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 1: in that stage. Yeah. Additionally, you know, they went back

380
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 1: to her old neighborhood and tried to interview her neighbors

381
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: and they all said, no, there was never a boy here, which,

382
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 1: on the one hand, well, they might have kept him

383
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: under wraps. You think, you know, if you buy a

384
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: kid to beat on, right, you're not going to be

385
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: walking him around the neighborhood. Yeah, but something. So, why

386
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: did she choose that particular time to come forward? And

387
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: had her mother finally died? Her parents had died a

388
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: long time ago, so she had a dad also living

389
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: in the house. Yeah, So I'm not totally sure what

390
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 1: that whole situation is. It's disturbing if it's true. For sure, Well,

391
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: there's people that do that kind of stuff. There are

392
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: that's true that she did. Anybody ask Mary what happened

393
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: after the boy died in terms of what happened to her?

394
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: Did she become the punching bag then and they go

395
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: find another kid? But they don't talk about that at

396
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 1: least in any of the stories. Um, but I would assume,

397
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, she was twelve when they purchased the kids.

398
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 1: So I would assume that either she had already been

399
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: the punching bag and was continued to be the punching bag,

400
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: or they found another outlet. You know, it was never married,

401
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: then it was never married. If it was always married,

402
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: it was always married. But she may have needed a supplement.

403
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 1: That's just such a weird, creepy little So there are

404
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 1: two other theories. One which I think is fairly plausible

405
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: is that perhaps this boy was a child of an

406
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 1: Amish family. There are a lot of Amish in Pennsylvania,

407
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: many Dutch, and so they're more prone to cover things up. Additionally,

408
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: they don't really they don't really have contact with the

409
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: outside world. Which there were pictures, you know, being circulated,

410
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't have made it into these Amish communities.

411
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 1: So if anybody in these communities knew this boy, they

412
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to report it. But you know, that's

413
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: pretty much as far as that goes. You know, he

414
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: was in ill health and an accident happened, but I

415
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: just don't think that the kind of bruising that he

416
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: had well, and this is something that I never I

417
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: never noticed, and I don't want to harp on this

418
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: too long, but I do want to ask the bruising

419
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: did were they able to tell was it all at

420
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: once or was it continual? Well, all of the bruises

421
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 1: they found, they were really really deep bruises, and all

422
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: of the bruises they found on his body when they

423
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 1: found his body were new or at the same time, umuises,

424
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: no broken bones. Just out of curiosity, do you know

425
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: if the Amish circucis you not there eject circumcision like

426
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: a lot of other Christian faiths. So okay, I kind

427
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: of yeah, And I guess I don't think of the

428
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: Amish as having the most advanced medicinal technology, So I

429
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: don't know that the kind of scarring that he had,

430
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I well know I I actually I wouldn't.

431
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: I wouldn't agree with that because if you think about it,

432
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: if your entire life, let's say, all you do as

433
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: you you work with the livestock, and when something happens,

434
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: you learned to sew them up so that you can

435
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: keep your live stock alive. Well, if you've been doing

436
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: that in your entire life, you're probably you know, there

437
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 1: may be one guy that's got an aptitude for it,

438
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: so everybody takes their their stock to him. He would

439
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: get really good at it. It's true. Having having a

440
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: sharp scalpel is just probably not against their religion. No, no,

441
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: and they do They're not like Jehovah's witnesses. They do

442
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: allow blood transfusions and stuff. So the ankle thing is legit,

443
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, all right, so maybe he was wasn't

444
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: because they don't circumcise, but yeah, no, I mean, we're

445
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: we're off off topic here, but it's just that's very interesting.

446
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, so the last theory, So I like this

447
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: theory a lot. Man by the name of Frank Bender.

448
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: He's part of the VDC Society, which has taken a

449
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: keen interest in this case. Is what exactly their society.

450
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: It's it's a bunch of retired police officers and detectives

451
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: who for and they've gone into a lot of cases,

452
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: and they've got a lot of coverage in the past.

453
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: Is they opened up old cold cases and look at

454
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: them with modern techniques and technologies and try and come

455
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: at him from a completely different angle, and they've solved

456
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot of so he thinks that, um,

457
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: this boy was probably raised as a girl. Cutting the

458
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: hair and the nails too, because a girl would usually

459
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: have longer nails. But that nobody could recognize the pictures

460
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: of this boy because he was walking around town as

461
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: a girl. That's true, right, with very long blonde brown hair, longer,

462
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: longer nails, dressed as a girl. You know, they would

463
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: when the accident occurred or whatever occurred, chop off all

464
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: the hair really short, trimm the nails, make it look

465
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: like this kid has always been a boy. They're touting,

466
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, nobody except for the people who knew what happened. No,

467
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: this boy is a boy. Everybody else thinks this boy

468
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: is a girl. I think it's fairly valid. Yeah, that's

469
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: explains what the kid was found naked too, because they

470
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: probably didn't have any boys clothes to dress him many.

471
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: So one of the things that Vendor brings up is that, um,

472
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: apparently the medical examiner, and this wasn't wildly publicized, but

473
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: the medical examiner said that, um, it looked like the

474
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: boy's eyebrows had been plucked, like you would if you

475
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: were trying to pass a little boy off as a

476
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: little girl. Oh, they have some sketches of people of

477
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: what this boy would have looked like as a girl. Yeah,

478
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: now that you mentioned, and I hadn't really made the connection.

479
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: When you look at the sketch and the photo, they're

480
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: very similar, and it does it's very it would be

481
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: very easy with long hair to mix it up and

482
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: just go, well, it's a little girl. Yeah, I think absolutely,

483
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: I think it's um. I think it's a really good theory. Actually,

484
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, this happened in two thousand three or something

485
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: like that, and they still haven't solved the case. Nobody's

486
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: come forward, but there's still a really big effort. And

487
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: Bender has ancent clearance rate with the society in solving cases,

488
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: so maybe he's on the right track. Yeah. The sad

489
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: thing is that at that time it was not uncommon

490
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: for a family to have a child and not be

491
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: able to take care of it because they just didn't

492
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: have the money for it. So you were sent to

493
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: uncle Jim's farm to live with him because he had

494
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: enough money, and you were gonna be raised there and

495
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: taking care of their and so it could very easily

496
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: have been that the situation was a somebody who did

497
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: this said, oh, well I sent to the kid to

498
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: uncle Jim's farm or the kid was sent to Uncle Jim,

499
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: who then committed to atrocity. I mean, you know, this

500
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: doesn't play in any of the theories you've talked about it.

501
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: It's just kind of things that you have to think

502
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: about when you remember the time frame. Yeah. I think

503
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: that's that's totally fair. Um, you know, it's hard. It's

504
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: hard to imagine somebody who just couldn't afford to raise

505
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: a child killing them so brutally. You know, there are

506
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: definitely ways to get rid of these, you know, fun

507
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: topics for the night, fun ways to get rid of people.

508
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: But you don't beat a child to death with like

509
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: deep deep bruises just because you can't. Normal people don't,

510
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: well normal people don't. But you know, I think that

511
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: people who I generally want, people who are concerned about

512
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: the welfare fair of their family into normal people. Yes,

513
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: very true. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. So Yeah,

514
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: once again, I'm going on record, I don't like the story.

515
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: This was a creepy, crazy I don't like it either. Sorry,

516
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: I'm sorry everyone, Sorry for hunting your nightmares. Picture all

517
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: of these wonderful, beautiful things to start the holidays, ye think,

518
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: happy thoughts. So I'm guessing it's like some some girl

519
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: from Philadelphia or somewhere around there, just too pregnant out

520
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: of wedlock. And at some point, once she was going

521
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: to start showing, she decided to head to some relatives

522
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: place or somewhere where she could have, you know, maybe

523
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: a home for her wayward mothers, that kind of thing mothers,

524
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: and had the baby. She was probably a little bit

525
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: of a head case and had convinced herself that she

526
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: was going to have a daughter, or for some reason

527
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: believe she was gonna have a daughter. So she told

528
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: everybody she was going to adopt her niece and bring

529
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: him back to live with her because her niece needed

530
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: at home and her parents had been killed or whatever.

531
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: And when she comes back siver months later, while she's

532
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: with she's got a little boy had on her niece

533
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: because well, it turns out the baby wasn't a girl

534
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: after all. She screwed up, and so she had to

535
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: hide the fact that her this kid was a boy

536
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: and not a girl. That makes sense, but him, Why

537
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: is the kid dead? There could be It could be

538
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: a number of things. It could be just a burden

539
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: of keeping this secret and just being a single mother etcetera,

540
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: got to be a bit too much. Um, it might

541
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: be that at some point she came to realize that

542
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: that keeping the secret forever was just not going to

543
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: be possible, or if she's mentally unbalanced, mentally she's mentally yeah,

544
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: it's always that too. Unfortunately things happen. Yeah, either way,

545
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know the facts in this

546
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: one for me to ever say, I think it's this

547
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: unfortunately for me, I I think it probably is Mary's story.

548
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: I think she's got a lot of facts, right, and

549
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: you know, all of them more things that you know

550
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: the general public knew. But her story is pretty convincing.

551
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: But nothing. She didn't have any details that we hadn't

552
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: already been put in the papers, right, No, But I

553
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: guess why would you? Why would you make something like

554
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: that up. It's not like she's earning money from it.

555
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: She's not getting any kind of public notoriety of a

556
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: lot of people do that kind of stuff. Though Tons

557
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: of people confess to murders they haven't committed just because

558
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: they like the attention. So it's I don't know. So

559
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: I don't really know what the is I could have met.

560
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: Mary's story is plausible. Yeah, it runs in line with

561
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: your theory. I mean there's a lot of you know,

562
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: crossover between what you were looking at what or what

563
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: you were talking about and her story. But yeah, I

564
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: don't I don't know. I don't like it can well,

565
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: so we still have to solve this mystery. Okay, forget

566
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: it now. I think it's too sad to solve. I

567
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: think the I think that we just have to say

568
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: that it was actually just a Halloween dummy that everybody

569
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: thought was a real boy. That's what the cops thought

570
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: when they first got there, was that it was a dummy. Yeah,

571
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: that's part Yeah, it was this Pinocchio. Yeah, the whole

572
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: thing was actually PoCA. Yeah, thank you, thank you. And

573
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: lovely unicorns running in the field. I see them now.

574
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: You know. It's like kids get beaten to death every year,

575
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: even today. It's like they usually don't wind up in

576
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: a junkyard, you know, and never never identified. But it

577
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: happens all the time, too bad, unfortunately it does. So

578
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: this is an open case. It's ongoing. Ostensibly, if you

579
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: know something about it, you've talked to the authorities. But

580
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: if you want to talk to us instead, an email

581
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Um. All

582
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: of the links from this week's show, as well as pictures,

583
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: will be up on our website at Thinking Sideways podcast

584
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: dot com. You can listen to our show there. You

585
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: can also listen to it on iTunes and Stitcher. If

586
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: you're listening to it on iTunes and Stitcher, please leave

587
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: us a rating in a comment. Yeah, we like to

588
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 1: hear from people. Uh, and recently we decided that we

589
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: would hop on the social media trend. So we've got

590
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: a Facebook now we've been posting lots of pictures of

591
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: our breakfast and our lat days and stuff like that.

592
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah in Instagram. We don't have Instagram. Yes we might

593
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: each or yeah, there's not much practical application for that. Anyways.

594
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook. We're Thinking Sideways Podcast.

595
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: You probably don't need the R I'll just search for

596
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways Podcast and there we are. So thanks all right, everybody,

597
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: thanks a lot else, See you next time. I think

598
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: happy thoughts