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Speaker 1: What kind of a show you guys.

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Speaker 2: Putting on here today?

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Speaker 1: You're not interested in art?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: No, Look, we're going to do this thing. We're going

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Speaker 1: to have a conversation from Chicago. This is Film Spotting,

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Speaker 1: celebrating our twentieth year. I'm Josh Larson and I'm Adam Kempinar.

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Speaker 3: We spend our lives in search of the other half.

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Speaker 1: If you think you've found that, don't be so quick

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Speaker 1: to let it go.

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Speaker 2: What a comforting thought. That's from the trailer for director

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Speaker 2: Michael Shanks together with Alison Brie and Dave Franco as

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Speaker 2: a couple whose relationship undergoes an unsettling transformation. We've got

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Speaker 2: a review.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of unusual relationships, how about Joe Gillis and Norma Desmond.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard to mark it's seventy

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Speaker 1: fifth anniversary, that and more.

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Speaker 4: All Right, mister demil, I'm ready for my close.

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Speaker 1: Up ahead on Film Spotting.

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Speaker 4: This episode is brought to you by Peloton break through

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Speaker 4: the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton

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Speaker 4: your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your

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Speaker 4: at one Peloton dot com.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to film Spotting, Josh, if you count dating, certainly,

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Speaker 2: we have both been with our wives for over thirty

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Speaker 2: years and still no fusing of the flesh. It seems

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Speaker 2: the movies have lied to us yet again.

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Speaker 1: Well speak for yourself, Adam. This eyeball on my shoulder,

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Speaker 1: that's stubby.

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Speaker 2: We do have a review of the new Relationship Body

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Speaker 2: horror movie together. We'll also get to our second Billy

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Speaker 2: Wilder classic of the Summer Sunset Boulevard, which is seventy

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Speaker 2: five this year. Plus I will have a few thoughts

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Speaker 2: on Angel Headed Hipster, the documentary about glam rocker Mark Bolan,

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Speaker 2: and we will have a new deeply flawed film spotting poll.

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Speaker 2: Is there any other kind? We're asking you to re

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Speaker 2: litigate the nineteen seventy six Best Picture race, the rare

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Speaker 2: case where all five nominated films are legit masterpieces, but

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Speaker 2: first together, a long time but unmarried couple make a

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Speaker 2: move to the country, which puts a strain on a

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Speaker 2: relationship that has already entered a state of complacency. Things

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Speaker 2: soon get weird. Notably, their body is becoming one. Here's

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Speaker 2: a scene that has them considering drastic measures to free themselves.

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Speaker 2: I'd imagine what you're about to do actually happening, and

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Speaker 2: tell me that's not going to make things way worse.

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Speaker 3: Whiskey for the pain, And as soon as we're separated,

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Speaker 3: I'll sprint for the first aid kit.

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Speaker 1: We have bandages, disinsect in everything we need. Uh, you're

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Speaker 1: right handed?

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Speaker 2: Oh God, actually maybe that's enough for that.

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Speaker 1: I think I can fill yours.

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Speaker 2: Is your right handed?

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Speaker 3: Andrew?

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Speaker 1: Remember when you said you weren't holding me off?

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Speaker 2: Did? Do you think I want to do this? No?

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Speaker 1: We are out of time.

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Speaker 2: We need to system.

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Speaker 1: We have to. We have to. If we don't split now,

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Speaker 1: it'll be much harder later.

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Speaker 2: There's gotta be another way.

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Speaker 1: Body horror is an icky, tricky genre, Adam and not

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Speaker 1: for the faint of heart. In my book Fear Not,

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Speaker 1: I said that such films are often about what happens

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Speaker 1: when the bathroom door is closed and locked. That's another

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Speaker 1: way of saying they're extremely personal and our reactions to

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Speaker 1: them are personal as well. For my part, I'm unnerved

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Speaker 1: but oddly transfixed by body horror. That's not to say

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Speaker 1: I love the genre uncritically, just that when I hear

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Speaker 1: about a new body horror film, I'm usually queasily intrigued,

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Speaker 1: and the good ones make me both physically repelled and

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Speaker 1: intellectually invigorated. But what makes a good body horror film?

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Speaker 1: This isn't your favorite genre, Adam, but there are movies

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Speaker 1: in this mode that you've appreciated. You were a fan

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Speaker 1: of Coraley Fargo's The Substance from last year, for instance.

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Speaker 1: What makes a body horror movie work for you? What

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Speaker 1: makes you glad you sat through the gruesomeness and gore

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Speaker 1: and to get to the point, did you find that?

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Speaker 1: In the new film Together. The movie stars James Franco

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Speaker 1: and Ellison Brie as a longtime couple at an awkward

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Speaker 1: moment in their relationship. Things get more awkward when, while hiking,

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Speaker 1: they drink from a suspect pond and suddenly their bodies

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Speaker 1: have the grotesque urge to merge. And that's not a euphemism.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Franco's tim has been avoiding physical intimacy for

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Speaker 1: quite a while. So what did you make of Together, Adam?

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Speaker 1: In general and as a work of body horror.

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Speaker 2: It's true I'm a little squeamish, so, to use your words,

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Speaker 2: I'm more queasy than intrigued, I suppose when I hear

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Speaker 2: about a new body horror film coming out. But what

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Speaker 2: does Dan Levy say in Shit's Creek? I like the wine,

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Speaker 2: not the label. It will always be about the movie,

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Speaker 2: not the genre or whatever type of movie it is.

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Speaker 2: For me, I can tolerate all sorts of unpleasantness if

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Speaker 2: it has a purpose and it pays off. And certainly

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Speaker 2: if it does in the end pay off, that's in

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Speaker 2: the filmmaking, the storytelling overall. So there will always be

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Speaker 2: body horror films I like and some I don't. I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you a little story, though, Josh, about my experience

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Speaker 2: watching Together. It was Monday, it was late afternoon. I

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Speaker 2: had the entire theater to myself, and you know, those scarier,

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable scenes that we involuntarily react to by covering our

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Speaker 2: eyes or maybe watch with our eyes peeking through fingers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you do that. I do that.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a cliche. I do that well. I

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Speaker 2: didn't have to maintain any public decorum. I could just

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Speaker 2: act like I was in my living room. When I

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Speaker 2: got scared or uncomfortable, I could basically fling myself forward

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Speaker 2: and cover my entire face with my hands. There was

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Speaker 2: one jump scared early on. I think you'll know which

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Speaker 2: one I'm referring to here, in a moment during a

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Speaker 2: nightmare that Tim is having that got me so bad.

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Speaker 2: It's a face with yellow eyes, and longtime listeners will

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Speaker 2: know the yellow eyes and movies and horror movies always

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Speaker 2: get me. It so unnerved me that, even though I

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Speaker 2: knew I was alone, I swear to you that I

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Speaker 2: looked over both my shoulders just to make sure that

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Speaker 2: nobody saw me freak out for a second. I was

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Speaker 2: so embarrassed by how I reacted.

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Speaker 1: But there was.

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Speaker 2: Only one scene that really flung me forward that for

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Speaker 2: the entire run time of that scene, I couldn't watch

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Speaker 2: or I couldn't watch without looking through my fingers. And

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a hint. It didn't involve any blood

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Speaker 2: or stuck body parts. It's the end of the party

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Speaker 2: scene where we meet our main characters Tim and Millie,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to spoil it for those who

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Speaker 2: haven't seen it yet, I'll just let you go into

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Speaker 2: it and navigate your own discomfort. It turns out I'm

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Speaker 2: more averse to people unintentionally humiliating themselves than I am

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Speaker 2: body horror, especially well intentioned people humiliating themselves. But that's

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Speaker 2: all around about way of saying or trying to illustrate

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Speaker 2: that although I might be as conflicted about my relationship

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Speaker 2: to this movie as Tim is about his relationship to Millie,

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Speaker 2: it's quite subdued as body horror. Even when the knives

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Speaker 2: come out, even when it gets a little bloody, the

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Speaker 2: gore really is left to the imagination. And while that

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Speaker 2: might disappoint fans of the genre expecting more blood and

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Speaker 2: guts and conventional thrills, I'm, of course in the other camp,

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Speaker 2: And instead of overindulging in the potential gross out elements,

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Speaker 2: I do think this movie sincerely wants to reckon with

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Speaker 2: the conundrum that a lot of couples that have been

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Speaker 2: together a while face. Do we want each other, do

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Speaker 2: we love each other? Or have we just gotten used

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Speaker 2: to each other? Are we together out of convenience and

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Speaker 2: to some degree comfort, Have we developed a kind of codependency, and,

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Speaker 2: as horror often does, Together takes a very real, universal

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Speaker 2: anxiety and amplifies it to its most absurd degree codependency. Well,

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Speaker 2: what happens if we remove the co and you know Milly?

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Speaker 2: You think you're sure? Emphasis on think, because the cracks

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Speaker 2: are clearly there right from the beginning, and she's aware

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Speaker 2: of them. You think you're sure you want to spend

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Speaker 2: the rest of your life with Tim. You can't wait

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Speaker 2: to be secluded with him out in the countryside. You

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Speaker 2: just wish that he was tethered to you as emotionally

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Speaker 2: and physically as you seem to be to him. Guess

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Speaker 2: what your wish is? Granted, Tim, you're not sure you

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Speaker 2: want to spend the rest of your life with Milly.

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Speaker 2: You're seeking clarity. You need something that will give you

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Speaker 2: that certainty, give you that direction. Guess what your wish is?

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Speaker 1: Granted.

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Speaker 2: That's that's the premise, that's the concept this movie is

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Speaker 2: playing with. And on that level, we'll get into the

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Speaker 2: reasons why I'm conflicted about my response. But on that level,

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Speaker 2: that's how Together worked for me.

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Speaker 1: And I think it would have worked for me similarly

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Speaker 1: if it had been more than a premise. But I

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Speaker 1: didn't find a progression beyond that in Together, which is

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Speaker 1: why I probably began as mixed but ended up negative

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Speaker 1: on this film. You said it, Adam, it has a

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Speaker 1: purpose and it pays off. I think the movie has

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Speaker 1: that clear potent allegory at the start, this anxiety, a

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Speaker 1: specific anxiety it sets out to explore or wants you

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Speaker 1: to think it's going to explore. I wish it had

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Speaker 1: done the work to excavate that throughout, and for me,

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Speaker 1: a lot of it had to do with beyond that

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Speaker 1: scene you mentioned, which I won't spoil either. Before this

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Speaker 1: couple moves to the countryside, we don't get much about

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Speaker 1: their relationship, or I didn't get a sense of who

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Speaker 1: the they were together, or even a part they were

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Speaker 1: probably thinly but effectively sketched. At the start, you get

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Speaker 1: the broad outlines as you described, of Tim being quite

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Speaker 1: not as committed and Millie perhaps being over committed for

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Speaker 1: the situation. And beyond that, I felt the film got

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Speaker 1: out in the countryside and became more interested in setting

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Speaker 1: up these set pieces of gore. You're right, there isn't

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Speaker 1: out and out gore. It's not necessarily what the movie

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Speaker 1: wants to spend all its time on, but it wants

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Speaker 1: to spend significant sections on and we know we're going

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Speaker 1: to get it, and I felt a disconnect between the relationship.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps it's the performances. For me, I found both of

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Speaker 1: these performances to be pretty flat. In the case of Brie,

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Speaker 1: I'm not all that familiar with her. I mostly know

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Speaker 1: her from mad Men, where you know she had a

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Speaker 1: bit of a school my arm quality, and that's doubled

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Speaker 1: down on here. You know, her telling Tim when he

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Speaker 1: should show, or that he's using too much data on

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Speaker 1: their phone plan, these sorts of things. Again, that's that's

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Speaker 1: more of a a repeating of what we've learned at

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Speaker 1: the start, and Tim, you know, this idea that he's

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Speaker 1: a little unsure about the relationship. It almost reverses after

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Speaker 1: this curse falls upon them, where the relational allegory for

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Speaker 1: me gets confused because then he becomes I don't think

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Speaker 1: this is a spoiler, but he becomes the needy one

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Speaker 1: and she starts to become the somewhat distant one. Again,

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Speaker 1: there's that a progression. It's to me, it's more of

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Speaker 1: a flipping. That doesn't make sense because I don't really

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Speaker 1: demand a lot of logic for my horror films, but

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Speaker 1: I did find myself wondering, why is Millie not similarly affected?

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Speaker 1: If that, if this fundamental curse, which has biological rooting,

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Speaker 1: it's related to, you know, this pond water, like, why

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Speaker 1: suddenly is she not as compelled to be close to him.

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Speaker 1: There's just little things like the first set piece we get,

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Speaker 1: which I think counts as body horror, because he's injuring himself.

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Speaker 1: Tim is in the shower and Millie is driving away

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Speaker 1: and he's suddenly violently thrown about by the turns in

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Speaker 1: her car. I didn't quite understand the dynamics there. And again,

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Speaker 1: these are minor things, but it was difficult to feel

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Speaker 1: the movie was really rooted in this exploring of the

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Speaker 1: idea of it as a central relationship. As it went on,

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Speaker 1: I thought maybe there were other interesting things that could

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Speaker 1: have been examined. I mentioned the physical intimacy Tim's lack

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Speaker 1: of physical intimacy with MILLI does the curse represent a

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Speaker 1: fear of sex? There's a very simple idea. If the

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Speaker 1: movie had committed to and spent more time on that

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Speaker 1: might have worked. You mentioned that dream sequence, which I

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Speaker 1: agree is very effective. The jump scare there that's related

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Speaker 1: to a story we learn about Tim's trauma and his

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Speaker 1: mother's mental illness. Might there be a connection to the

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Speaker 1: curse there, maybe kind of we get a cult subplot

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Speaker 1: here too. There is a lot that for me hinted

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Speaker 1: at other movies Together could have been. And really, I'm

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Speaker 1: not demanding much from a horror movie like this. I

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Speaker 1: just I want exactly what you said at the top,

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Speaker 1: a potent allegory. I want a specific anxiety it's going

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Speaker 1: to be explored. I just want one idea and it

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Speaker 1: to really give service to that. And for me, Together

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Speaker 1: was a little bit more going for the gore scenes,

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Speaker 1: the body horror scenes, eventually really going off the deep

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Speaker 1: end in that direction speaking of the substance, but not

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Speaker 1: doing any of the work that I like to see

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Speaker 1: put in beforehand.

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Speaker 2: I think it did more of the work than you're

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Speaker 2: giving it credit for. We'll get into some of the

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Speaker 2: ways it may go off the deep end here in

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Speaker 2: a bit. But I saw the characters, the performances and

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Speaker 2: just the screenwriting and the storytelling around those characters have

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Speaker 2: more depth than I think that you're giving them credit for.

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Speaker 2: Even with Millie, I never saw her as that kind

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Speaker 2: of authoritative or I suppose, kind of mom like figure

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Speaker 2: that's scolding the character. And we can talk about a

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Speaker 2: couple of lines that you mentioned in particular. But even

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Speaker 2: though she's the one who, as I said, is more

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Speaker 2: tethered in some ways to him and he has the

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Speaker 2: more clear doubts, she is also someone who, from the

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Speaker 2: very beginning we see is spiraling a little bit about

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Speaker 2: their relationship. And I think the whole premise there as

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Speaker 2: well is tied to the fact that it's like the

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Speaker 2: struggling married couple who and we hear so many of

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Speaker 2: these stories, right who decide that we're really struggling, So

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Speaker 2: what are we going to do to save this marriage?

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have a baby.

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Speaker 2: They think that somehow they're going to solve their problem

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Speaker 2: and become closer as a couple by moving out to

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Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere and only having each other. This

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Speaker 2: is a bit of a last ditch effort. And I

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Speaker 2: see in the performance, and I see in the writing

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Speaker 2: that Bree's character knows that. So I don't see them

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Speaker 2: quite as one dimensional. I think is maybe that you do.

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Speaker 2: And I really felt like I understood who they were

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Speaker 2: as individuals and as a couple from that opening scene,

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad they just kind of threw us into

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Speaker 2: it based on the way they talked about each other,

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Speaker 2: the way, in Millie's case she's always having to defend

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Speaker 2: Tim to her best friend, and in Tim's case, the

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Speaker 2: way he's really not talking about her much at all,

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Speaker 2: He's just talking about himself and his failed music career.

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Speaker 2: That told me enough about who they really are as

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Speaker 2: people and how they maybe feel about each other. And

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Speaker 2: the way even that they interact with each other Josh

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Speaker 2: at the party from across the room and then when

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Speaker 2: they're together, the smiles, the gestures. This may be where

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Speaker 2: some of the Brie Franco extra textual stuff comes into

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Speaker 2: play and really serves the story, where you I got

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Speaker 2: the sense that they know each other really well. There's

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Speaker 2: a built in familiarity with the way that these two

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Speaker 2: characters interact with each other, and I I got that

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Speaker 2: sense that, yes, they know each other. There's an intimacy

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Speaker 2: where you not only understand that they love this about

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Speaker 2: each other, that they know each other so well, but

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Speaker 2: it also could be taking its toll on each other.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really grateful that we didn't get any more

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Speaker 2: fleshing out if you will, to these characters.

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Speaker 1: I think it did what good narratives do, thrust us

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Speaker 1: right in. Yeah, I agree, the opening section does good

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Speaker 1: work in the ways you're describing. I guess I just

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Speaker 1: wanted more of that. It's kind of like the movie felt, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we did that, now we don't have to do any

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Speaker 1: more of it. And it's so funny you mentioned, you

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Speaker 1: know the fact that Bri and Franco are off screen

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Speaker 1: an offscreen couple, because for me, it's a case of

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Speaker 1: that working against them. And I didn't know this until

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Speaker 1: after I'd seen the film and had written up a

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Speaker 1: review about it and then saw it on social media somewhere.

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Speaker 1: And it can go both ways, right, Sometimes offscreen couples

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Speaker 1: bring that chemistry that you found, and it's absolutely why

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Speaker 1: their performances work together. In this case, for me, it

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Speaker 1: was the other way. Once they got out to the countryside,

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Speaker 1: I felt like, in fact, some of their scenes together

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Speaker 1: were awkward when they're discussing you know, what would your

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Speaker 1: last social media post be if you died that there

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Speaker 1: was In my experience, I felt I would have guessed

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Speaker 1: that these two performers were deeply uncomfortable with each other

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Speaker 1: on screen. It was the opposite.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And they had one of these cirstic, cynical sense

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Speaker 2: of humor that only people who know each other's sense

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Speaker 2: of humor really well would understand. That scene lit to

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Speaker 2: you talked about it's here again. I think maybe you're

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Speaker 2: seeing Breed through a prism that I don't see her through.

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Speaker 2: And I haven't seen mad Men, so I definitely don't

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Speaker 2: see her through that that lens. But those lines you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: I remember them very vividly, because there's certain line readings

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Speaker 2: that I remember pretty vividly in this film, like when

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Speaker 2: she she says to him that that maybe he should

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Speaker 2: take a shower, and the fact that they are running

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Speaker 2: out of data, and I just think there's more to it.

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Speaker 2: It isn't a case where it is just about her

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Speaker 2: being someone who's chiding him, who has to be telling

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Speaker 2: him what to do. That moment with the shower is

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Speaker 2: one where it's just followed him. She's gotten out of

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Speaker 2: the shower and he's rubbing her back and he actually

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Speaker 2: really hurts her. It's a really it's a really weird

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Speaker 2: physical exchange, and he wants to go with her, or

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Speaker 2: asks if he can go with her, and she really

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Speaker 2: clearly wants some distance from him. And the way she says,

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Speaker 2: like take a shower is kind of like if you

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Speaker 2: were saying to someone like, no, you know you can

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Speaker 2: clean the garage, like you've got other things to do.

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Speaker 2: It's not so much like take a shower, you smell bad.

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Speaker 2: That's that's how I interpreted it. And even even the data, Josh,

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Speaker 2: the data is another example of them it. I think

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Speaker 2: it's adding to the to the character because it's in

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Speaker 2: their relationship, because it's another example of him just casually

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Speaker 2: without thinking. She's not saying, don't do that, how dare

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Speaker 2: you you? She's just pointing out, we only have so

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Speaker 2: much and it's about gone. And what's he doing yet again?

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Speaker 2: He's just not thinking about it and he's using it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the I think it's the yet again

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Speaker 1: for me, though it's slid up of micro aggressions that

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Speaker 1: dip their toll. For me, it's the yet again of

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Speaker 1: it is like I knew that about them. I knew

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Speaker 1: like she's in this slot, he's in this slot. And

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Speaker 1: then yes, the curse seems to reverse that a little bit,

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Speaker 1: which you think would be interesting except for the illogical

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Speaker 1: nature of it, and that's where I got hung up

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Speaker 1: a little bit as well. And maybe as far as

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Speaker 1: Brie is concerned, it's just, you know, a brief thing

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Speaker 1: for me. I know, people really appreciate her as an actress.

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Speaker 1: And again I haven't seen all that much and it's

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Speaker 1: not fair to just bring mad men into this if

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Speaker 1: that's all I've seen, but it is a quality where

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Speaker 1: I don't know, there's there's just like a low energy

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Speaker 1: lack of engagement in the performance that seems at odds

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Speaker 1: a little bit with the premise and at odds with

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Speaker 1: what Franco is trying to do too. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you this, and I don't know how this played

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Speaker 1: in your alone viewing in the theater, but at what

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Speaker 1: point did you find this purposely funny? Unsure whether it

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Speaker 1: wanted to be funny or not funny. You shouldn't be laughing,

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Speaker 1: but you were. And it relates to Franco because the

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Speaker 1: level of shouting he's frequently doing here to me feels

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Speaker 1: a little bit like sweaty trying to make something funny.

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Speaker 1: And it works in one scene the clip I believe

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Speaker 1: we heard where they're contemplating with this SASA actually having

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Speaker 1: to cut their own flash. This isn't spoiling anything, I

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Speaker 1: don't think. And he notices you're right handed, and I

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Speaker 1: think she's got it. She has to have it in

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Speaker 1: the other hand, and that to me felt like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's a good line. He delivers it with like exasperation.

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Speaker 1: It's the ridiculousness of this situation, and can laugh. In

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Speaker 1: terms of release. There are a couple other moments, though,

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Speaker 1: one involving her hair, which struck me as unintentionally funny.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure how to how to gauge his performance,

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Speaker 1: and I will say too, I think some of the effects,

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Speaker 1: the special effects, although they're practical and I always appreciate that,

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Speaker 1: were a bit dodgy to me, And that was fell

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Speaker 1: into the same bucket of should I be laughing at this?

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Speaker 1: Am I meant to be laughing at this? Is it

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Speaker 1: because of how it looks? And it shouldn't look that way?

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Speaker 1: But anyways, in general, where did you land on, you know?

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Speaker 1: Together as a comedy.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have any issues with unintentional humor, and I

395
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Speaker 2: didn't have any issues with bad special effects until one

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Speaker 2: moment near the end of the film, and without getting

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Speaker 2: into spoilers, and I promise we won't. I will mention

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Speaker 2: something else about that scene, so you'll know what I'm

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Speaker 2: referring to at least there, Josh, and I think other

400
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: listeners who have seen the film will know what I'm referencing.

401
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Speaker 2: And I even have a hard time honestly talking about

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Speaker 2: Franco's performance and separating it from Brie. I just see

403
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Speaker 2: them as such a pair in this film, and I

404
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Speaker 2: like the performance. I feel like it's a unified performance

405
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Speaker 2: in this movie. But as far as the comedy, nowhere

406
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Speaker 2: in this marketing of this film have I seen it

407
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Speaker 2: tagged or referenced as a comedy. And that makes total sense.

408
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Speaker 2: But I do think it has a lot of humor

409
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Speaker 2: to it, and I even use the word absurd earlier.

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Speaker 2: I think Shanks and company get the inherent humor in

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Speaker 2: some of these scenarios. As you said, even a bathroom

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Speaker 2: quickie that results in getting stuck together. That's funny you

413
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Speaker 2: mentioned it. I never thought i'd say this about a

414
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Speaker 2: scene involving a sasaw in human flesh. But it's neither

415
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Speaker 2: played for humor or horror. Yet it's both awkwardly funny

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Speaker 2: and distressing. I mean, I say, play, Josh. What I

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Speaker 2: mean is, I don't feel like and I watched that

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Speaker 2: scene again, we played it coming in right, I don't

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Speaker 2: feel like it's either ramped up for comedy's sake or

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Speaker 2: ramped up for terror and gore sake. They're just letting

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Speaker 2: the natural tension of the scene and the suspense of

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Speaker 2: are they really gonna do this? Are they really going

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Speaker 2: to cut their flesh, and the dynamics of their relationship,

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Speaker 2: like how they naturally talk as a couple, the way

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Speaker 2: they banter with each other, what they know about each

426
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Speaker 2: other's idiosyncrasies and their failings as people. That's all coming

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Speaker 2: to bear in that scene. So without ramping it up,

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Speaker 2: it is funny. And if I was in the theater

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Speaker 2: with other people, maybe we would have been laughing. I

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Speaker 2: was laughing, and yet I was also terrified watching it.

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00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 2: So I think that's a really effective scene. I think

432
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 2: it translates to other set pieces too.

433
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: That is, let me just say quickly, that is the

434
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: highlight for me. I think that's I think it's perfectly

435
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: in terms of balancing tone even performance. I'll give you,

436
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: as I said, Franco's line delivery and and the pacing

437
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: and the editing there too. The way that scene comes

438
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: to a conclusion is just Chef's kiss. So yeah, and

439
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: I think I wish the movie I'd had more of that,

440
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: but I do agree that's a great scene.

441
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: Another good one, though, for me, is when they are

442
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: not too long after that, very intentionally sleeping in separate rooms,

443
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: and this force sends them flying towards each other and

444
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: Franco's being dragged across the floor. I really like the

445
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: filmmaking here, and I'll give you one specific instance why

446
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 2: he's being dragged across the floor. In what I have

447
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: to assume is a very clear homage to The Exorcist,

448
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 2: Bree is doing a spider walk essentially not downstairs but

449
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 2: out the door towards him. And it does also seem

450
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: like the way they're being led, the way their bodies

451
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 2: are being led, it's as if certain pieces are meant

452
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: to fit together intentionally, like buzzle pieces that they're trying

453
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: to fight against. And what I like in particular, Josh,

454
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 2: is the use of sound here, and I think there

455
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: are some other nice filmmaking touches throughout that show that

456
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: Shanks knows what he's doing with the camera, but the sound.

457
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: The way that sequence starts, they go to bed and

458
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: close the door, and then what happens next. It's darkness,

459
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 2: and we hear sound. We hear the sound of him

460
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 2: being dragged, and that cues us in that oh, no,

461
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 2: something terrible is happening, but we don't know what, and

462
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: so we're anticipating the lights being turned on, so to speak,

463
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: figuring out what's actually happening. But it also makes sense

464
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: because he doesn't know. He hasn't woken up yet, his

465
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: eyes haven't opened yet, right, He's just being dragged across

466
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: the floor. So we're in the same situation as viewers

467
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: that he's in where he has to open his eyes.

468
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: He's just waking up to the sound of him being

469
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: dragged in the dark. So I really do like that.

470
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: I will say, though, Josh, all of that established the

471
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: humor surprised me and surprised me in a good way.

472
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that when you add in all of

473
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: the other elements, and I do want to talk about

474
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: some of these more. When you add in all those

475
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 2: other elements that are introduced into the plot, I'm not

476
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: sure that they find the right balance.

477
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of too much for me, and

478
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to explain exactly what I hinted at

479
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: this cult subplot, and let's just say that it does

480
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: take on more prominence as the movie goes on. It also,

481
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: to me, it goes back to my simplicity idea. It

482
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: strikes me as wholly unnecessary this movie if it had

483
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: devoted the time it gives to the cult elements, for me,

484
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: to the relationship dynamics, just given all that screen time

485
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: and moved over and given us more scenes of them

486
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: as a couple, even more scenes just being there in

487
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: the countryside before they drink the water. That would have

488
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 1: enabled the movie to be more focused and richer and deeper.

489
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: So I think that was And the other issue I

490
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: had with a cult element is just some of the

491
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: logic that goes into it as well. Again, not being

492
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: nitty gritty about horror movies, I give them a lot

493
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: of leeway, I know. I think one that we split

494
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: on was it follows and you had many logical concerns,

495
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: some of which were valid, I agree, over arching ones. Yeah,

496
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: and I agree it's a valid question. But for me,

497
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: that movie engrossed me to the point where I was like, yeaheah, okay,

498
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: but whatever. Here it became increasingly hard to say, yeah, whatever.

499
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 2: I agree with you, and so much so Josh, that

500
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 2: maybe I'm being too apologetic. Though I'm not willing to

501
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: quite go this far, I at least want to throw

502
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: it out there. There's a part of me. I have

503
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: this in my notes. The more I thought about it,

504
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 2: I wondered, it's so underdeveloped. In fact, the logic is

505
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: so faulty in some ways and so flimsy that I

506
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: actually wonder if that's part of the joke that they

507
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: want us to pick up on. And if it is,

508
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: is it too clever for its own good? Where it

509
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 2: there's no mystery to it if you think about it.

510
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: A lot of other films would have actually built up

511
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: to the reveal, and there is a bit of a reveal,

512
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, but this has a prologue. We

513
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: know ahead of what the characters do exactly what's happening,

514
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: and we're not idiots, so that when we see certain

515
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: symbols and everything, and we see what's in that cave,

516
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: we kind of know, just based on other movies that

517
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 2: we've seen, what has to be happening. And then we

518
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,239
Speaker 2: hear a conversation that occurs and we're like, Okay, we

519
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: know what's going on. It almost feels to me like

520
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: they want us to have a meta experience where we're

521
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: ahead of the characters. We know based on other films

522
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: that we've seen, other horror films, that the joke is

523
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: actually no, nothing's a mystery. It's exactly what it appears

524
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: to be, and we're not even going to build it out.

525
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: It's possible. I don't think the payoff, if that was

526
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: the intent, is worth it. And also I did sense,

527
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, a desire. Without this cult element, you wouldn't

528
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: get the ending we get, which I'll say doesn't go

529
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: substance big, but feels in that vein, feels like it's

530
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: trying to swing that big. I think of other recent

531
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: horror movies like Malignant, or a horror movie like Barbarian.

532
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: We're going to be discussing the director's follow up film,

533
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: Weapons next week, and Barbarian similarly builds to this gonzo

534
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: gorzo climax, and in some ways it feels like together

535
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: at some point the filmmakers wanted to have that direction

536
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: as well, and just having a movie about this couple

537
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: might not have enabled that possibility and the way they

538
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: wanted to. But you add in these elements that the

539
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: cult brings in and maybe we can get there again.

540
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it was a more holistic process

541
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: as a viewer, that is what it feels like, and

542
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: it's still that's fine if you want to go there.

543
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: But even something like The Substance, which I liked better,

544
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: had some reservations about. At least it had complete focus

545
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: and commitment on what it wanted to be about, right,

546
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: the horrors of aging as a woman in Hollywood. And

547
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: it took that as far as it could go, and

548
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: it was insane how far it took it, but it

549
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: did the work before it got there was my feeling

550
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: on it, and together the work is at the homework

551
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: is a little messy and all over the place.

552
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: So I want to pinpoint a couple things in particular

553
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: when we talk about maybe the world building or some

554
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: of these other elements. And for me it might be

555
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: a downside or a byproduct of actually devoting as much

556
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: time as they do. And it's a positive to Tim

557
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: and Milly in their relationship. I know you see it differently,

558
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: but that world building then doesn't feel quite as robust

559
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: there is that prologue. I mention again, I'm dancing around

560
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: all the details. I promise I'm not going to spoil anything.

561
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: But there's the prologue. There's a cave, there's a missing couple.

562
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: I don't think we've mentioned. There's a pair of dogs.

563
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: This all connects to a cult. They all factor into

564
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: the story in major and in some minor ways. And

565
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: when I do try to envision a version of Together

566
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: that leans into these elements even more, I don't necessarily

567
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: see a better movie. I see one way down by

568
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: a lot of plot. But the version we get also

569
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: does feel, as we've discussed, too flimsy. And there's a

570
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: reveal here's here's a minor one, or actually a bigger

571
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: one for me, I'll get to the minor one.

572
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: There's a reveal near the end involving the.

573
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: Missing couple that only opens up more questions than yes,

574
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: and not the good kind of questions, now the wait

575
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: what variety of questions? The questions where you totally agree,

576
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: you start worrying about the strength of the foundation the

577
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: story is built on, rather than opening up new ideas

578
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: to consider. Did not get that at all. That's also

579
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: the same moment I was referring to earlier when I

580
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: talked about the effects being perhaps questionable. Here's the minor one.

581
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: The only direct reference to the dogs from the prologue,

582
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: which by the way, felt to me like an overt

583
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: homage to the thing John Carpenter. The only direct reference

584
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: to the dogs from the prologue happens about midway through,

585
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: when things are really kind of starting to get truly

586
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: weird for Tim and Millie. She's a teacher and one

587
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: of her young students, this young girl leaves a troubling

588
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: drawing on her desk for Millie to see, and it

589
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: opens the door for us to consider something very traumatic

590
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: involving a character who is otherwise a complete non factor

591
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: that the movie is using just to add a little

592
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 2: bit of ominousness. And it's not ominous. It doesn't serve

593
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: any purpose. And here again it's a minor issue. It's

594
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: a nitpick a house, but it does connect to a

595
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: larger one for me that I wanted to open up

596
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: and see what you thought of it, Okay, And I

597
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: kind of already know what you think of it, because

598
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: I know that you think overall the movie just has

599
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: too much going on, falls into that Tim's trauma, what

600
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: he is dealing with coming into the issues that they

601
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: start dealing with in the story proper, the recent loss

602
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: that he has suffered, and the grief he is still

603
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: wrestling with. He's lost his parents, we learn, and this

604
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: is information given early on in the movie. This isn't

605
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: uncommon in horror movies dephic character who has recently experienced

606
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: a loss or gone through something painfully traumatic, parental loss.

607
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: I think about Midsummer right away, and it can be

608
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: very effective. It can be powerful. Sometimes the horror they're

609
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: facing is a manifestation or can be read as a

610
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: manifestation of these feelings in this trauma.

611
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: In some way.

612
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: From a relationship standpoint too, this grief adds to Tim's rudderlessness.

613
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: I think it's impacting his sexual desire. Once we get

614
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: some insight, we get more insight into the exact nature

615
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 2: of what he saw, what he experienced, it becomes clearer,

616
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: and I think it's even articulated at one point in

617
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: the screenplay why he would fear legitimately fear not just

618
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: be skeptical of or be hesitant about entering into marriage

619
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: or long term commitment, but really fear the idea of

620
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: being bound to someone forever and sex sex is going

621
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: to be seen as part of the gateway to that commitment. Still, Josh,

622
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: the scene he describes is grizzly, and I wonder if

623
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: it doesn't undercut the movie and my defense of it

624
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: in some way. The way the filmmakers have stacked the

625
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: deck and this concept is introduced that the movie is

626
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: definitely having some fun with. Plato talks about it in

627
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: the Symposium. Aristophanes raises this whole notion that we all

628
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: were originally creatures that had arms and four legs, and

629
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: Zeus thought we were too powerful and he split us,

630
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: and we're all really searching for our soulmates. That's the

631
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: other main conceit of this film. Really, soulmates isn't just

632
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 2: a concept that comes from romantic comedies. What if it's real?

633
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: That's what this movie is, basically, that's the question it's posing,

634
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 2: and that of course ties to this central anxiety about

635
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 2: commitment as well and the idea of it being real

636
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: and universal. Those are not only enough to build the

637
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: movie around, but arguably that's kind of the entire point.

638
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: We all face loss, sure, but most of us hopefully

639
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: hopefully never go through or never confront anything as horrific

640
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: as he does, which doesn't make Tim then representative of

641
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: all of us. It actually dilutes the power of the

642
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 2: universality of the concept of the film in some way

643
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 2: by adding this element of the really horrific.

644
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: Trauma that he's faced. So I'm going to go the

645
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: other way and say that is the one sub plot,

646
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: sub thread that I do think the movie that is

647
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: connected to the movie's main concern, which is relational anxiety

648
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: as you described. I think you described it well. And

649
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: if the movie had spent more time connecting those two

650
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: forgetting about the cult, forgetting about I mean it nods.

651
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: I'll just say it nods to like non binary implications

652
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: here and there, which are also potentially very interesting, but

653
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: if you're not going to really explore them, just don't

654
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: bother with that. But if it had just kept with

655
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: that subplot, which is Tim's trauma, I think you're right.

656
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: It's very directly related the grizzly element. And again I'm

657
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: dancing around spoilers. The grizzly detail we discover is a

658
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: direct parallel for his greatest fear relationally and the actual

659
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: physical reality of what begins happening to them. So I

660
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: think there's a great horror movie there, but the family

661
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: trauma is sort of dropped about halfway through after we

662
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: get that reveal. I don't know if it's even referenced again,

663
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be talked about. I don't

664
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: even think the filmmaking returns to it again. I don't

665
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 1: know if we get another flashback or a dream sequence again.

666
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: Maybe that's not those aren't the right choices to make.

667
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: Those are kind of cliches. But some way, visually, even

668
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: maybe even the eyes that you mentioned, Adam, somehow bring

669
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: that back so that we're connecting Tim's trauma with what

670
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: we're now seeing in the latter half of the film.

671
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: And that's where I do feel. I'm usually one who

672
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: defends horror trauma. I know a lot of people these

673
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: days roll their eyes as soon as there's a story that, oh,

674
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: it's a horror movie, but it's really about grief. Oh

675
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: it's a horror movie, but it's really, you know, about

676
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,479
Speaker 1: this terrible thing that happened. I think I think those

677
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: are instrumental ways to make a horror movie. The problem

678
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: is if you just drop it in as a device,

679
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: right with any sort of filmmaking device. If you're just

680
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: going to say, well, I'm going to kick start my

681
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: movie and try to give it more importance by referencing

682
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: this and then going to kind of forget about it. Yes,

683
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: that's cheap. It does happen occasionally, maybe more so recently

684
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: than it did before. But I still think there are

685
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: good horror movies being made today that take the trauma seriously.

686
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: It's a through line through the character's experience, and that

687
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 1: makes them richer. For me, I see what you're saying

688
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: about the particular experience that Tim had not being universal,

689
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: thank goodness, but I think that doesn't bother me as

690
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: much because it does kind of take it into this

691
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: really disturbing realm that horror sometimes can push things. I'm

692
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: okay with that. Again. For me, it's just pair away

693
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: some of these other potential avenues that you kind of

694
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: tiptoe on and instead focus on Tim's asked how the

695
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: body horror reflects that and how it reflects the current relationship.

696
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: I think they could have had a really strong horror film.

697
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 2: There, and for me, it's more something I'm still considering.

698
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure where I land on that question,

699
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: but It's not so much a matter of me wanting

700
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: the filmmakers to invoke that trauma more consistently or again

701
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: throughout the film. I always felt like I understood Josh,

702
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: that it was underpinning his behavior and Tim's actions. It

703
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: might come back to that balance question, and even what

704
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 2: you said about there being a really compelling horror film

705
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: in there, the one you wanted to see, I think

706
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: you're right. Even though I like some elements of the humor,

707
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 2: there's something about that antithetical nature of the absurdity and

708
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: the cult elements and the flimsiness of some of the areas,

709
00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: this film goes against the real terror of that trauma

710
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: it's introduced. And you know what, if the movie had

711
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: actually gone even to go back to your setup question,

712
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: if the movie had really leaned into that even more,

713
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: that might be a film, ironically I'd enjoy even more,

714
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 2: even though it might actually be.

715
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: A tougher sin Yeah, tougher watch. Yeah. Probably.

716
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: You Know Together is out now in wide release. If

717
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: you see it and agree or disagree with our thoughts,

718
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: or have any other comments you'd like to share, we'd

719
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: love to hear Free mefeedback at film spotting dot net.

720
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: Whiskey for the pain. Listening is the number one thing

721
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: you can do to support an independently produced show like ours.

722
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: There are a couple of other things you could do.

723
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: You could take a minute to give us a rating

724
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Doesn't matter

725
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: if you're brand new or have been around for twenty years.

726
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: Every new review helps us reach new listeners. Another way

727
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: to support us join the Film Spotting Family at film

728
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: Spottingfamily dot com. Thank you very much to family plus

729
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: member Jake in Indianapolis. If you want to follow Jake

730
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: on letterboxed, his handle is mister Underscore Thurman.

731
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: And as we're going to hear in a moment, he

732
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 2: really does need to be called mister Thurman. Josh Jake says,

733
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: I found film Spotting in twenty twelve, and I was

734
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: devouring podcasts while remodeling a house in my summer off

735
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: from teaching, and I was instantly hooked. I'm shamefully just

736
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 2: now signing up for the family. I added film history

737
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: and film criticism to my course load as a high

738
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: school teacher in twenty fifteen, and I've used film Spotting

739
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: as a resource many times. So I guess I also

740
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 2: kept listening to be better at my job.

741
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: I mean, Jake, it sounds like you should be getting

742
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: your school to pay for your film spotting family membership

743
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: if you're putting it to use at work, I mean,

744
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: come on.

745
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, professional development. I'm sure they're very to go go.

746
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: Sure their budget is about as big as mine is.

747
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: Right now, we need to compare our syllabi for film criticism.

748
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: A favorite review or segment. I really enjoy the anniversary

749
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: reviews of older films and the sacred Cows. The longer

750
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: end of year review episodes are also something I always

751
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: look forward to every winter. A review we got wrong?

752
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: The original Roadhouse is a masterpiece and has rarely been

753
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 2: more wrong.

754
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: A masterpiece. Yes, okay, yes, well I can take it

755
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: if I learned. What did I learn from Roadhouse? What

756
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: pain doesn't hurt, Pain, don't hurt, hurt pain, don't hurt, pain,

757
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: don't hurt. Bring it on, Jake.

758
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,959
Speaker 2: A letterbox top four for mister Thurman, cool hand, Luke,

759
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 2: do the right thing, Heat and et.

760
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: You can't argue with that. That looks good.

761
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: Favorite movie he revisited recently, Hot Fuzz and it's still perfect.

762
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: A random film or filmmaker. He loves David Lowry and

763
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 2: both A Ghost Story and Green Knight, a movie Jake

764
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: credits with becoming a cinephile. I fell in love with

765
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: watching movies with et Indiana Jones and Marty McFly as

766
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: a kid in the eighties. Seeing pulp fiction, probably way

767
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: too early at thirteen, was the first time I realized

768
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: that I loved thinking and talking about movies also as

769
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: much as watching them. And finally, a book about movies

770
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 2: or movie making. This is about as impossible as the

771
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 2: letterbox four favorites, but I would say that I recently

772
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: read and really liked Adam Nahman's books on the filmography

773
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: of the Coen Brothers and on the filmography of Paul

774
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: Thomas Anderson. Good stuff from mister Thurman. Thank you so

775
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 2: much for writing in and for your support of the show.

776
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: If you like mister Thurman, would like to be a

777
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: family member and support us here on film Spotting, you

778
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: can visit film Spottingfamily dot com and get all the

779
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: details and all the benefits of being a film Spotting

780
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: Family member, including our monthly bonus shows like the recent

781
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: conversation about burn. After reading we just dropped into their

782
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: family feeds Josh, we have upcoming here in August a

783
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: bit of blind spotting. Three candidates that family members are

784
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: voting on right now. It's either going to be Gaslight,

785
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: Stray Dog or Rocky Horror Picture Show. And no we

786
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: didn't just pick those all randomly. There are behind all

787
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 2: three of those choices. And then in September we've got

788
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: trivia spotting. So always something fun going on with the

789
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: film Spotting Family again, film Spotting Family dot com.

790
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: He was the pine of the Glamorolf movement, Universal Latoy.

791
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: He was the biggest selling poe is he's written, and

792
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: he loved that. It's time for Adam's documentary Corner. I

793
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 1: don't know you want to we call it Adam's Alcove.

794
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: You like that better documentary Alcove. Yeah, that sounds more pretentious. Exactly.

795
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: You got to have that pipe and the cardigan when

796
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: you're sitting in there. Uh huh. That clip was Ringo Star.

797
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: It comes from the new music doc Angel Headed Hipster,

798
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: the songs of Mark Bolan and t Rex and if

799
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: that name in that band. If you're drawing a blank there,

800
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: I've got three words for you. Bang gone and no

801
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sing to help you out any further, Adam.

802
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: This documentary, which is currently playing in very limited release

803
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 1: and is scheduled for a September VOD release. It's both

804
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: a profile of Bolan, who's credited with launching the glam

805
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: rock movement and who died at twenty nine in nineteen

806
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: seventy seven, and it's a document of a Bolan tribute

807
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: album that was released back in twenty twenty. Artists as

808
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: diverse as you too, Kesha Father, John Misty, and Nick

809
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: Cave appear. Were you a Bolan fan before this, Adam,

810
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: And if not, did the documentary make you one?

811
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: That fandom or lack of fandom is really what drove

812
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 2: my interest in seeing Angel Headed Hipster, In addition to

813
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 2: the fact that I'm just a sucker for documentaries about artists,

814
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 2: and especially documentaries about musicians. If I want to appear

815
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: credible as a music fan a musician, Josh, I can

816
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: always point to the fact that the first albums I

817
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: ever listened to and loved, the first needle drop I

818
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: ever had on my first stereo as a young kid

819
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: with a record player and a caste deck and speakers

820
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: in my bedroom were my parents' copies of the Beatles

821
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 2: Rubber Soul and the Wine Album, unquestionably two of the

822
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 2: greatest albums ever. Of course I didn't really get that

823
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 2: as that young kid. I just thought the songs were

824
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: really catchy, which of course they were. But it is

825
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 2: also true that it would be a good eight to

826
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: ten years after that before I would realize that that

827
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney should be my bass playing idol and not

828
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: Nicky six of Motley Crue.

829
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: But so be it.

830
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 2: Nicky six of Motley Crue was my first music.

831
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: Explains a lot, and.

832
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: In interviews, it might. In interviews whenever he'd get asked

833
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 2: because I read all those heavy metal magazines.

834
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: When I was in junior high.

835
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: What were those called again, metal edget Parade, Circus, Circus,

836
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: That's the one I was thinking of. Whenever he'd get

837
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: asked about his biggest influences, Mark Bolan and t Rex

838
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: would immediately come up. And it was true for all

839
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: those hair metal rockers, of course, it was they weren't

840
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: really imitating Bowie. Nobody could really sound or look like

841
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 2: David Bowie, but with the poofed up hair and the

842
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: makeup and the crunchy guitars, they were all kind of

843
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: doing Mark Bolan. Despite that, I never dug deeper. I

844
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: knew Bangagong and that was about it. Maybe Sam can

845
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: help me out here a little bit and give us

846
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 2: a little sound underneath the song Twentieth Century Boy.

847
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I even knew the name of it.

848
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: I just know the riff. We all know the riff.

849
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: It's been used in a ton of movies. I think

850
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: it's one of the greatest rock rifts of all time.

851
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 2: And yet, as I said, I'm not sure I knew

852
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 2: the name of the song, and if you asked me,

853
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: I probably would have needed five to ten guesses to

854
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: tell you it was Mark Bolan. Somehow, he's just been

855
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 2: off my radar, despite knowing the great influence he had

856
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: on a lot of my idols as a kid. So

857
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: this was my chance to atone for my adolescent ignorance.

858
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 2: It's a very straightforward documentary. Bolan's prolificness and eclectic spirit

859
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: beg for a documentary is daring as his look and sound.

860
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: But while the film plays.

861
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 2: It safe, it reminds us why the rocker poet's influence

862
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: still reverberates. That's what I learned. I didn't know he

863
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: was as prolific as he was. I didn't know he

864
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 2: was the poet that he was. I wasn't even fully

865
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: aware of the eclectic spirit, Josh. All of those things

866
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 2: are things I didn't learn ultimately from the documentary. I

867
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 2: kind of thought he was this flash in the pan

868
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: and this light that was snuffed out too soon, like

869
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 2: a lot of rockers are. And I didn't know why

870
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: so many musicians revered him the way.

871
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: That they did.

872
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: It's archival footage. It's talking heads mixed with footage of

873
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: the making of an album where they have artists performing

874
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: and recording some of his songs, and that element isn't

875
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 2: very revealing. You Two, for example, does a cover of Bangagong,

876
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,959
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, there's nothing very interesting or personal about what

877
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 2: the Edge has to say about Bangagong or what they

878
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 2: bring to the version of the tune that they do.

879
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: And I'd say that's true for most of the musical

880
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: renditions we get in the movie. But then you also

881
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 2: get one like the song Nick Cave performs, and it's

882
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 2: really kind of wondrous. I am glad I saw it,

883
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: and I'm glad Bowlin's getting the exposure he deserves and

884
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: I will say we're dropping this show in people's podcast

885
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 2: feeds on Friday August eighth. You are in New York

886
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 2: because this is getting a limited release here just in

887
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: New York in LA. It actually came out in the

888
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: UK a few years back, so some of our listeners

889
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 2: Josh may have already seen this back in twenty twenty

890
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 2: two or twenty three, but it's just getting released here now.

891
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: And again that VOD release on September fifth, but the

892
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: Roxy Cinema in New York tonight Friday seven point fifteen,

893
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: the director Ethan Silverman is going to be doing a

894
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: Q and A with John Cameron Mitchell of Hedwig and

895
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: the Angry Inch fame, and Mitchell has a performance. He

896
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: has a song on the album in the movie as well.

897
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: That's certainly something I would want to participate in or

898
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 2: go see if I was in New York, so I

899
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: wanted to make sure I mentioned that with that film

900
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: coming out now New York, LA and rolling out to

901
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: a few other cities over the next week or tenular.

902
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: Next week on the show, Adam, it looks like we're

903
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: doing more horror. Are you up for this? Weapons? It's

904
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 1: from Abarian? Okay, good, it's from Barbarian director Zach Kreger.

905
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: Reference that film in our discussion of together basic idea

906
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: here talk about just one premise that's going to hook you.

907
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: Kids mysteriously flee their houses late at night and don't return.

908
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: Pretty good cast too, including Julia Garner and Josh Brolind.

909
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 1: So we'll have a review of Weapons. Also, you're back

910
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: on the music doc Beatids. Yes, Never Over. Jeff Buckley

911
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: is opening in limited releases this weekend. You're going to

912
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: check it out and report back on that.

913
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: Now, that is an artist I can say I'm truly

914
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: a fan of. So that will be a little bit

915
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 2: of a different viewing experience.

916
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: All right, next week for that, as well as some

917
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: massacre theater and maybe a horror themed top five from

918
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: the archives to pair with Weapons. We're still thinking about that.

919
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: For a current show schedule, just go to film spotting

920
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: dot net slash. Are you ready, Josh for cinema for this?

921
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: I am, believe it or not, I am. I'm not

922
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: doing any more viewing research. All my notes are in order. No,

923
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: I'm not going to watch the player for what the

924
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: fourth or fifth time in the last three months. I

925
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 1: will when Interruptus begins on August eleven. That's our first

926
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: day when we watch The Player in its entirety at

927
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: Chicago's Gene Cisco Film Center, and then we're going to

928
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: get back together three days in a row after that

929
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: through the fourteenth to go through the film a scene

930
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: at a time. Anyone can participate with a comment or

931
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: a question. So yeah, it's last call to get your tickets.

932
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: You can purchase a four day package if you want

933
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: to do the whole thing, or if you can only

934
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: make it for one of the days, just pop in.

935
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: Single day tickets will be available again. Cinema interrupt Us

936
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 1: the Player at the Cisco Film Center August eleven to fourteen.

937
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: Ciscofilmcenter dot org slash interrupt us is where you can

938
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: get your tickets.

939
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 4: Well, it's time to say that Benny been so nice

940
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 4: traveling with you.

941
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: Thank you, Irene. I was so excited, nervous.

942
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: Sure, great to have you to.

943
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 3: Talk to you.

944
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: Remember I'll be watching for you on the big screen.

945
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: Okay. Irene won the day time for some deeply flawed

946
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 2: film spotting poll results. Wait, Sam wrote that does that

947
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: mean he's calling our listeners deeply flawed?

948
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 1: I mean they're voting. It gets dicey between Sam and

949
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: the listeners on some of these polls. They hold him

950
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: to such high standards. Sometimes he's sometimes he's got to

951
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: push back a little bit.

952
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 2: You know. I don't think there's anything flawed about these results.

953
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: Naomi Watts there in Mulholland Drive. A couple of weeks ago,

954
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 2: Josh You and guest host Michael Phillips asked listeners to

955
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: choose one and only one actress playing an actress going

956
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: through it. That was inspired by Norma Desmond and this

957
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: week's revisit of Sunset Boulevard. The options we gave you,

958
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: and we gave you many great ones. Betty Davis all

959
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 2: about Eve, General Rowland's Opening Night, Glorious Swanson, Sunset Boulevard,

960
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 2: Julia Binoche, The Clouds of sALS Maria, Laura dern Inland Empire,

961
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: Naomi Watts Mullholland Drive, Natalie Portman made December Scarlet, Johanson

962
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: Asteroid City or despite all of those options, you could

963
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: write in other how did it come out?

964
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: Well, Adam, you were worried about Juliette Binotia's chances, and

965
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: indeed she came in behind other in last place, one

966
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: percent for her, two percent for Other, three percent for

967
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: Scarlet Johannson, four percent for Laura Dern, six percent for

968
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman, and nine percent for Jenna Rowlands. All packed

969
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: together at the bottom, and it was a bit of

970
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: a fight, a closer fight here at the top. For

971
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: the top three, with twenty one percent of the vote,

972
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: it's Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard. Twenty four percent of

973
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: the vote went to Betty Davis for All About Eve,

974
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: which means Naomi Watts won the poll with thirty percent

975
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: of the vote.

976
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 2: Here's Jeremy Webna Berman. The first person I thought of

977
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: when I saw this prompt was Nami w Her scene

978
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: where she auditions for the film, combined with her jokingly

979
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 2: doing the bad reading, is some of the best and

980
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 2: most riveting acting I've ever seen.

981
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,760
Speaker 1: Here's Will a Murderer's Row with representation from two movies

982
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: that might be in my all time top ten, Sunset

983
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: Boulevard and Mulholland. And still it's Betty Davis. Without a

984
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: second thought.

985
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 2: Dave Allen says a lot of good options, but I

986
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 2: literally just watch whatever happened to Baby Jane last night?

987
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 2: So that's all I can think about. Betty Davis is

988
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 2: so haunting and terrifying as Baby Jane Hudson in this,

989
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: but still somehow evokes empathy for her fragile mental state.

990
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 2: It's scary and confusing, and I loved it. Josh quick question,

991
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 2: is whatever happened to Baby Jane possibly a blind spot

992
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: for you?

993
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: Oh? No, I've seen it. I think it's for me

994
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: two times. It's wild, a lot of fun and a

995
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: little disturbing as well. So yeah, happy to revisit if

996
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: we ever want to do a blind coyle of that one.

997
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: Another comment from Daniel here, who's backing up my choice.

998
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: Daniel said, I have an accusation General Ollins isn't getting

999
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: more votes because many have not seen Opening Night, and

1000
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: it is the only thing I can think of to

1001
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: justify her being so low. Granted, she's behind some legendary

1002
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: performances and she's far from last, but I guess I

1003
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: just don't care. I'm deciding to be outraged just for

1004
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: the heck of it. Go watch Opening Night if you haven't. Yeah, well,

1005
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to argue with the last part. Go

1006
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: watch it if you haven't. Great film.

1007
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 2: Kristen says, I'm going with Natalie Portman. But from her

1008
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 2: performance in Black Swan ooh, her spiral into the darkness

1009
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 2: after getting the role of the Black Swan is mesmerizing,

1010
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: definitely worthy of her oscar Win. So maybe going more

1011
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 2: performer than actress, but that could also be semantics.

1012
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: Sure, I'd accept it. Here's Nick with another vote. Nobody

1013
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 1: was going through as much as Heather Langenkamp playing herself

1014
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: in Wes Craven's New Nightmare. Okay nice?

1015
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 2: Nick r MP writes, Honestly, I can't even say if

1016
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 2: Jules Dassen's nineteen seventy eight film A Dream of Passion

1017
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: even a good movie, having seen it exactly once in

1018
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two. But and this does sound really intriguing.

1019
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 2: Speaking of blind spots, Josh, the movie has stayed with

1020
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 2: me to this day. Malina McCory is a malaise ridden

1021
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 2: actress trying to find something to interest her in playing

1022
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 2: Medea on stage. She meets with Ellen Burston's Brenda, the

1023
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: American wife of a cheating Greek husband, imprisoned in Greece

1024
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: for murdering her children and christened the modern Medea by

1025
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: the Greek press for an actress going through it. Getting

1026
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 2: in touch with your inner Medea is about as primal

1027
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 2: as it gets.

1028
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: WHOA Okay, how about our last comment? Here is another

1029
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: burst in performance one listeners are maybe a little bit

1030
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: more familiar with. It comes from Aaron He went other

1031
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: Ellen Burston in The Exorcist.

1032
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 2: I'd say that counts as going through it a little bit.

1033
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: It's definitely an actress. Time for a new poll. Twenty

1034
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 2: twenty five is the fiftieth anniversary of one of the

1035
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 2: great movie years, nineteen seventy five, a greatness that's pretty

1036
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 2: easy to measure with a look at the films nominated

1037
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 2: for the nineteen seventy six Best Picture Oscar. We have

1038
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 2: Josh Kubrick's Barry Lindon, we have Sidney Lmetz, Dog Day Afternoon,

1039
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: Jaws from Steven Spielberg, the eventual winner, One Flew Over

1040
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 2: the Cuckoo's Nest, and Robert Altman's Nashville. So we gave

1041
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 2: Jaws the Sacred Cow treatment back in twenty twenty for

1042
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: its forty fifth We just talked about Cuckoo's Nest last week.

1043
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 2: Both loved that film. We're going to be talking about

1044
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 2: Dog Day in a couple of weeks. Those three films

1045
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: are in the film spotting pantheon. Safe to say we're

1046
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: fans of those three films, and then you throw in

1047
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: Barry Lindon and Nashville. Pretty formidable roster of films. What

1048
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 2: we're doing is we're throwing out Jaws. We're saying we

1049
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 2: just think Jaws would annihilate the other four as good

1050
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: as they are in this poll, especially knowing what we

1051
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 2: think we know about our listeners. So without Jaws, which

1052
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 2: one is the best film? Do you have a clear

1053
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: pick here, Josh?

1054
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's tough because Barry Linden I watched for

1055
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: the first time just a few years ago. It's fairly fresh.

1056
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: Cucko's Nest obviously is fresh dog day in Nashville. It's

1057
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: been a while, and sometimes the archives I have at

1058
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: my lurs and on film website are helpful in this case.

1059
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: But I looked at all four of these titles. They're

1060
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: all three and a half out of four star movies

1061
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: for me, and probably ones I've mostly seen only once.

1062
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: So it's really tough. I mean, do I just go

1063
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: with recency bias and say Cuckoo's Nest right now? And

1064
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: maybe I'll regret that when we do Dog Day our

1065
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:42,919
Speaker 1: review coming up here. But yeah, I guess I lean

1066
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: that way.

1067
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: I'm still reeling from the thought of Dog Day and

1068
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 2: Cuckoo's Nest only getting three and a half.

1069
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: I knew, I knew you were gonna take this to

1070
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: letterbox where they have like a star commissioner, file it

1071
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: with File A grievance.

1072
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 2: Actually, that's a position I want to apply for. I

1073
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 2: bet star commissioner sounds great.

1074
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: I bet what.

1075
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 2: Benefits come with that, Josh?

1076
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: I mean, just the pleasure of annoying people by dissecting

1077
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: their star ratings. I think that should be enough.

1078
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: I think I would rank them in the exact order

1079
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 2: they appear on my screen at the moment Dog Day Afternoon,

1080
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 2: Cuckoo's Nest, Barry Lindon, Nashville, Nashville could very easily move

1081
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 2: up ahead of Barry Lindon if I gave the film

1082
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 2: a rewatch. I've only seen it once, and it was

1083
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 2: many years ago, twenty years ago. I think I watched

1084
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: it back in the early days of this show for

1085
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 2: the first time, and I do have some recency bias

1086
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 2: with Cuckoo's Nest, so it's very tough to choose between

1087
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: those two films. But I know I love Dog Day Afternoon,

1088
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,919
Speaker 2: So after we talk about that, I'll feel like I've

1089
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 2: given them both the treatment they deserve. Josh, and this

1090
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 2: poll will have already been closed down and it will

1091
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 2: all be for nothing. But right now I'm going to

1092
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: go dog Day just slightly ahead of one flow over

1093
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 2: the Cuckoo's.

1094
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: Nest to satisfy the Star commissioner. Let me let me

1095
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: file something I did give Cuckoo's Nest, and here maybe

1096
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: this supports the vote. I just made four and a

1097
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 1: half out of five recently after our rewatch, so it

1098
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: is now bumped a little bit ahead of those others.

1099
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: And now you're going to say, why isn't it five

1100
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: out of five? You know the Star commission doesn't work overtime.

1101
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: You're done, Your business is done.

1102
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: I was going to move on. Actually I can. I

1103
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: can tolerate a four and a half out of five.

1104
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: Josh.

1105
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: You can vote in that poll and leave a comment

1106
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 2: at film spotting dot net. We will share your results

1107
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: and your feedback in a couple of weeks.

1108
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 3: So they were turning after all those cameras life, which

1109
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 3: can be strangely merciful had taken pity on Norma despoint

1110
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 3: the dream she had plung to so desperately had.

1111
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: Sunset Boulevard is ready for its close up? But are we?

1112
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: Billy Wilder's Hollywood Noir came to theaters seventy five years

1113
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: ago this month, August nineteen fifty, and it went on

1114
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: to become the director's most Oscar nominated film eleven nominations,

1115
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: including Best Picture, so most nominated but also appropriate for

1116
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: a tale about tinseltown disappointment. The Wilder movie with the

1117
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: most Oscar losses. It won only three of those eleven

1118
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: for score, art, direction, and for Wilder's screenplay, which he

1119
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: wrote with Charles Brackett and D. M. Marshman Junior. You

1120
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,919
Speaker 1: may be wondering, okay, what picture could have possibly beat

1121
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 1: out Sunset Boulevard. Well makes sense that it was another

1122
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 1: showbiz related tale. The nineteen fifty one Best Picture winner

1123
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: was all about Eve.

1124
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 2: You maybe shouldn't feel too sorry for Wilder, though, after

1125
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 2: the relative disappointments of two films released in nineteen forty eight,

1126
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: The Emperor Waltz and Foreign Affair, he did before that

1127
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 2: win Best Director, Best Picture and Best Screenplay plus Best Actor.

1128
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 2: Maybe one or two others for the Lost Weekend in

1129
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 2: nineteen forty five, so you know, pretty well respected in

1130
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 2: Hollywood by the time Sunset Boulevard rolls around. As far

1131
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 2: as the plot goes, should we start at the beginning

1132
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 2: Josh or at the end like Wilder does with William

1133
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 2: Holdens down on his lux screenwriter Joe Gillis dead in

1134
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: a swimming pool. We then flashback six months earlier with

1135
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 2: Gillis fling repomen when he turns into the driveway of

1136
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: a Sunset Boulevard mansion. That's where he meets Gloria Swanson's

1137
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 2: Norma Desmond, a reclusive, silent movie star who is eager

1138
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: to boot Gillis from her home until she learns his occupation,

1139
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: which conjures up dreams of a career comeback and maybe

1140
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 2: of romance.

1141
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 1: Two. Here's a clip.

1142
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 3: She'd sit very close to me, and she's smell of

1143
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 3: two roses, which is not my favorite perfume, not by

1144
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 3: a long shot. Sometimes as we watch, she'd clutched my

1145
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 3: arm on my hand forgetting she was my employer. Just

1146
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 3: becoming a fan excited about that actress up there on

1147
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 3: the screen. I guess I don't have to tell you

1148
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:18,959
Speaker 3: who the star was. They were always her pictures. That's

1149
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 3: all she wanted to see.

1150
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 1: Still wonderful, isn't it?

1151
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 3: And no dialogue. We didn't need dialogue. We had faces.

1152
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 3: So just aren't junny faces like that anymore? Maybe one

1153
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 3: gobble those idiot produced its those imbeciles. Haven't they got

1154
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 3: any eyes? Have they forgotten what a star looks like?

1155
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: I'll show them.

1156
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:46,479
Speaker 3: I'll be up there.

1157
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 2: Again, so help me, so, Josh, I do think this

1158
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 2: is yet another example of those beautiful bits of coincidence

1159
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 2: spotting that we get sometimes totally random, where we review

1160
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 2: a new movie together about codependency the same way we

1161
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 2: discuss Sunset No Kid on this viewing, What did you discover,

1162
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: if anything, any revelations.

1163
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: I mean codependency. I think it's probably what I realized

1164
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: the first time. This is no blazingly new reservation. But

1165
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: Sunset Boulevard takes a perversely codependent relationship and blows it

1166
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: up to Hollywood proportions. And by that I mean we've

1167
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: already described it in a couple of ways, a classic noir,

1168
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: a Hollywood noir. It is that it's beautifully that and

1169
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: we should talk about the ways it's a noir. It's

1170
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: also a backstage studio drama, which is something entirely different,

1171
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:51,439
Speaker 1: and it's brilliantly that and maybe the observation I had

1172
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: watching this more towards the beginning, but this is equally

1173
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 1: a Tinseltown Gothic horror. And I'm watching this movie, Adam,

1174
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 1: and maybe it's just because you know, we got Robert

1175
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 1: Egger's No. S Faratu a few months ago now, and

1176
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: I'm looking at Norman Desmond sitting like Dracula in this

1177
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: high backed chair in the midst of this dark, cavernous room.

1178
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't really click for me there. But then I

1179
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 1: notice as she's interviewing gillis their first meeting at her

1180
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: desk and she's trying to she's trying to hire him basically,

1181
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: and her one knee is up on her chair. She's

1182
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 1: clutching her knee.

1183
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 2: This is so funny. I'm going to start with this

1184
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: same scene, but maybe go in a different direction.

1185
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: Okay, ok to me, it's a No. Sparatu style claw

1186
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: And then you've got you've got her servant, you know,

1187
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: her servant Max, played by the director Eric von Stroheim,

1188
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: closing the drapes so that all sunlight is being shut out,

1189
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: and we have her entombing her guest, proposing a deal

1190
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: that's going to end with her living on at the

1191
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: cost of his life. And I think there are other

1192
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: great little touches. There are the rats in her pool.

1193
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: There is the coffin for her chimp. You've got a

1194
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: coffin even you know, as the movie went on, it

1195
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 1: seemed to drop. Who knows how much any of this

1196
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 1: was intentional, It did seem to drop some of the

1197
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: Dracula stuff. Gillis does call her a sleepwalker at one point,

1198
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: and then there is that great Bride of Frankenstein's shot

1199
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 1: of her when she stands up in her private screening room.

1200
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: She's backlit by the projector she's going off, and I'm thinking, oh,

1201
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: this is Bride of Frankenstein. So anyway, the larger point

1202
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 1: I want to make is not that Sunset Boulevard is

1203
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 1: a Dracula movie, but that it is also this gothic

1204
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 1: whore in so many ways the filmmaking. The filmmaking leans

1205
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: into this, but it's also these other things. That's the

1206
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: brilliance of it is that it can be it can

1207
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: explore all of these genres fairly equally and equally well.

1208
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, part of the brilliance of Wilder is that he

1209
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 2: made films within almost every type of genre, and some

1210
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 2: would argue he made perhaps the best film in all

1211
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 2: of those genres. Are some of those genres, and here

1212
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 2: you've got a film that is kind of not any

1213
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 2: one genre and it wraps up a bunch of different

1214
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 2: ones very well. And as I said, it's so funny

1215
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 2: because we queued into one scene in particular, but are

1216
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: going to perhaps use it for different reasons. Even though

1217
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 2: I'm not going to take issue at all with your reading,

1218
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 2: including even the mention of her as a sleepwalker. That

1219
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 2: gothic element is undoubtedly here. But for me, the thing

1220
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 2: that stood out to me this time, or at least

1221
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 2: what I as a viewer tapped into that I never

1222
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 2: had before. And Josh, maybe it was just about me

1223
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 2: opening myself up to this possibility. It doesn't even have

1224
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 2: to be so much about Wilder's filmmaking. It's just about

1225
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 2: me allowing myself to have this experience. I really tapped

1226
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 2: in for the first time to Norma's humanity. It's been

1227
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 2: fifteen years since I've seen this film. I believe it

1228
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 2: was part of a Wilder marathon back in twenty ten

1229
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 2: that corresponded with a gram school class that Maddie and

1230
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 2: I were teaching at the University of Chicago about Wilder

1231
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 2: and part of it, as well as maybe just appreciating

1232
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:17,719
Speaker 2: Swanson's performance even.

1233
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: More than Yeah, I want to talk about that did.

1234
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 2: It's so easy to see her again, rightfully, the way

1235
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 2: you're describing her, and to see her as this relic,

1236
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:30,919
Speaker 2: not just figuratively but literally as a sort of object,

1237
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 2: and see her as inhuman that's consistent with being a vampire,

1238
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 2: right the fact that she's always in character, she's in costume,

1239
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 2: it seems it seems like she's always performing that description

1240
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 2: of her as a sleepwalker, well, a sleepwalker in addition

1241
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: to conjuring the idea of a vampire. It just makes

1242
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:52,799
Speaker 2: you think of a spirit. And she's not even Norma

1243
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 2: Desmond really. In that same bit where Joe talks about

1244
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:01,799
Speaker 2: her as a sleepwalker, he calls the great Norma Desmon,

1245
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 2: the subject that makes her crazy, her celluloid self, the

1246
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 2: great Norma Desmin. So she's not a person, she's a thing.

1247
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 2: And when he starts reading her lousy screenplay, he says,

1248
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,679
Speaker 2: as for her, she sat coiled up like a watch spring,

1249
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 2: her cigarette clamped in a curious holder. And if you

1250
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 2: notice even there, the way he's describing her, the way

1251
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 2: Wilder and his co screenwriters are describing her, they're dehumanizing her.

1252
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 2: They're describing her coiled up like a watch, like an object.

1253
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 2: But I had never paid attention, even though the narration

1254
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 2: is calling attention to it, I had never really paid

1255
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 2: attention to how she is sitting and how odd that

1256
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 2: is for a character of her stature and status to

1257
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 2: be sitting like that. And I almost felt like Josh

1258
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 2: going really the complete opposite direction of a vampire or

1259
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 2: any other creature. I saw her sitting there on almost

1260
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 2: like a little girl, the way a little girl would

1261
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 2: sit in a chair with her, with her legs up

1262
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 2: in the chair, with her knees up by her neck.

1263
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 2: And so she's still on some level performing the role

1264
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 2: of Norma Desmond, but she's also betraying the fact that

1265
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 2: a handsome man is in front of her, and she's

1266
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 2: hoping to impress him because he's good looking, but also

1267
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 2: because it's her script and she wants to impress him

1268
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 2: with that script. And so so the body just kind

1269
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 2: of kind of does that and betrays that fact. So

1270
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 2: that is something that I tapped into this time. And

1271
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:35,599
Speaker 2: I think, you know, throughout, Josh, we can geek out

1272
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 2: and we will about probably some lines and some shots,

1273
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 2: but just to really put a bow on this thought

1274
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 2: about her humanity. My god, that staircase descent at all.

1275
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: What a shot and the way she carries the moment.

1276
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 2: Two way she carries it the staging so that the

1277
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 2: police and the cameraman and the reporters all basically freeze.

1278
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: So it's like one of her oil canvases of a

1279
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 2: legendary figure or a mythical figure come to life. It's

1280
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 2: Norma though, being Norma, It's Norma being a star. So

1281
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:13,679
Speaker 2: what does that mean? She transcends, She transcends space and time.

1282
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 2: She gets to glide down the stairs past the glued onlookers,

1283
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:20,680
Speaker 2: and that line, her line at the end. It's one

1284
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 2: of those classic Mandela effect moments. Right we all think,

1285
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 2: don't we all think that she says I'm ready for

1286
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 2: my close up, mister de mil But she actually says,

1287
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 2: mister de Mille, I'm ready for my close up.

1288
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: And she underplays it, she under sells it. She does.

1289
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 2: You're so right, but that line because of the way

1290
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 2: it's been used overused in popular culture. That is another factor,

1291
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 2: I think in distancing us from Norma as a person

1292
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,640
Speaker 2: and seeing her as this capital t tragic figure, but

1293
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 2: we don't really see her as a person, as a

1294
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 2: tragic figure, And so just watching it this time for

1295
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 2: the first time for me as as mad as she

1296
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 2: clearly is, I didn't gawk at her as she walked

1297
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 2: down those stairs, and I didn't think about her in

1298
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 2: a sensationalistic way and her tragic fall. I actually really

1299
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 2: felt I felt sadness. I felt sadness for Norma in

1300
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 2: those final moments in a way, as I said, I

1301
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 2: haven't before even if even if did you notice Wilder

1302
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:28,080
Speaker 2: denies her the close up. He blurs the camera lens

1303
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 2: before she fully moves into the close up, and you

1304
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 2: could read that on some level like a coldness or

1305
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 2: maybe a meanness to Norma. I do know that in

1306
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 2: my research back when I taught this as part of

1307
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 2: that class, that Bracket thought throughout the film that not

1308
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 2: even so much Norma the character, but to Gloria Swanson,

1309
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 2: Wilder was often too mean with how he staged some

1310
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 2: of those shots. The harshness of the lighting, all the mirrors,

1311
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 2: the close ups, that they were too garish, that they

1312
01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 2: they emphasized her oldness, and they were maybe too But

1313
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 2: I'll just say at the end it goes back to

1314
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 2: something I talked about during the apartment Josh. It's more

1315
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 2: about just kind of Wilder's clear eyed, matter of factness

1316
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 2: about the world. And it actually kind of for me,

1317
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 2: just further amplifies the tragic nature of the fact that

1318
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 2: even in that last moment, she still she doesn't get it.

1319
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 2: Not only does she not get her film, she doesn't

1320
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 2: even get that close up she's asking for there.

1321
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I would put it in the category

1322
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 1: completely agree with you about her humanity being at the

1323
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,760
Speaker 1: four and I'll talk a little bit about how I

1324
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 1: think the performance is key to that, but I think

1325
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 1: it's key in the direction and the filmmaking too. So

1326
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:40,520
Speaker 1: for me, that final shot, the lack of a extreme

1327
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: close up that we might be expecting that's maybe in

1328
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 1: our memories because of how the line is quoted. Choosing

1329
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:50,560
Speaker 1: to go otherwise to me is a bit of deference

1330
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 1: to her and a distinction from what we do get

1331
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:56,560
Speaker 1: earlier in the film, where she does look scary or monstrous,

1332
01:14:56,640 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: you know, rather than using a similar shot and expecting

1333
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: Swanson to do all the work of making that distinction.

1334
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 1: The filmmaking here is helping her and then she's doing

1335
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,360
Speaker 1: the work, as I said, by underplaying the line. In

1336
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,599
Speaker 1: my memory, it's shouted, it's declared, it's this camp moment,

1337
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 1: and it is not. As a matter of fact, it

1338
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 1: stands out. It's one of the only lines that she

1339
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 1: speaks softly where she isn't performing for anyone. And I

1340
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 1: think it's because she has found her space. Now it's

1341
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 1: a false space, but she's found the place she's been

1342
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:32,719
Speaker 1: seeking to be on set in her mind, doing good work,

1343
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:35,839
Speaker 1: and so she can be relaxed and she can be herself.

1344
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,679
Speaker 1: And that's why she just says the line quietly. Another

1345
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 1: touch in terms of the filmmaking, the crane, which is

1346
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,600
Speaker 1: probably what was used as she comes down the stairway.

1347
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: I think it's crucial that the crane follows her because

1348
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 1: we're with her. This again is putting us aligned with her,

1349
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:55,560
Speaker 1: not gawking at her. It's not making her look ridiculous,

1350
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: it's making her look regal and noble. Is there some

1351
01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 1: irony there, of course, and maybe Wilder means it to

1352
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 1: be sarcastic, but for me on this viewing, it felt

1353
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,480
Speaker 1: almost honoring actually, how that final sequence played out.

1354
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:11,719
Speaker 2: I can't go on with the scene. I'm too happy,

1355
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 2: mister Demil, Do you mind if I say a few

1356
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 2: words thank you?

1357
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: So it is interesting that you picked that early interrogation

1358
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: scene and as the jumping off point for her humanity.

1359
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,160
Speaker 1: For me, it came in another sequence that I feel

1360
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: is so crucial. This is after Norma has pushed her

1361
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 1: way onto the Paramount Pictures a lot and she's forced

1362
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 1: this meeting with Cecil B. Demill, her former director Demil

1363
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 1: playing himself, of course, while he's on his set, and

1364
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:43,719
Speaker 1: not only in the sequence. Adam is Demil so gentle

1365
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 1: with her, not trying to squash her deluded dreams, but

1366
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 1: finding a way to yes, move her along, but without

1367
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,440
Speaker 1: making her feel foolish. But how about the choice Wilder

1368
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 1: and working with cinematographer John f. Sites Here they anoint

1369
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 1: her in this angelic air by having this veteran spotlight

1370
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,680
Speaker 1: operator recognize Norma and on the set, and so he

1371
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 1: turns the beam onto her as she sits in a chair,

1372
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 1: and she exults in it. Again, this could be a

1373
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: gawking moment. There are gawking moments of Norma in this movie,

1374
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: but to me, this is more about her regalness, her nobility,

1375
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 1: her history, her place in Hollywood history. This attracts the

1376
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: attention of the crew. They're delighted by the surprise appearance

1377
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 1: of this legend, and then we get after their effusive praise,

1378
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: she weeps in gratitude, And there's something I find deeply

1379
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 1: touching and genuine about that moment and not sarcastic or

1380
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: even ironic or biting at all. So I think that's

1381
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,680
Speaker 1: in the filmmaking the humanity. But maybe another revelation I

1382
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 1: had Adam is in Glorious Swanson's performance. Again, don't know

1383
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 1: how long ago it was that I saw this. Certainly

1384
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:59,919
Speaker 1: had not seen enough movies or thought deeply enough about performing.

1385
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: This is something I feel like sometimes I'm still trying

1386
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:04,200
Speaker 1: to get better at what makes a good performance in

1387
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: different tones and ranges and styles. And we certainly have

1388
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 1: one of cinema's grand melodramatic performances here from Swanson. But

1389
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 1: I think it works beyond just being entertaining in a

1390
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 1: gawking way. And what helped me is having seen between

1391
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: my first viewing of Sunset Boulevard and now a lot

1392
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: of the work of Betty Davis and Joan Crawford. Now Swanson,

1393
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,600
Speaker 1: I had to remind myself, had already been nominated for

1394
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 1: two Oscars before she was nominated for this. In her heyday,

1395
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 1: she had made silent pictures, she had produced silent pictures,

1396
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: So her heyday was before Crawford and Davis were in

1397
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 1: their professional pride, So for them it was like late

1398
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: thirties into the forties. So you have to think Swanson's

1399
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 1: early work had to influence them, especially the deliciously vicious women.

1400
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 1: I think of them as playing right and without a doubt.

1401
01:18:55,640 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: Her Norma Desmond is, you know, in that cauldron of

1402
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:03,800
Speaker 1: whatever Happened to Baby Jane, which has Davis an Crawford right.

1403
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 1: And so Swanson is largely remembered for Sunset Boulevard despite

1404
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 1: that earlier career. But it's hard to imagine the careers

1405
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: of two other Hollywood legends without the totality of her

1406
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 1: contributions to Hollywood, all of which informs the pathos she

1407
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,599
Speaker 1: brings to Norma Desmond. So you have someone here who

1408
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 1: is rooting these outsized gestures and these grandiose expressions which

1409
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: she gives, she's rooting them in a real character because

1410
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 1: Norma Desmond feels like every day she's performing in a

1411
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 1: silent movie exactly, And what do you do in a

1412
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:39,919
Speaker 1: silence movie set? Her house is a sid I understand

1413
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 1: not all silent movies did actors perform this way, but

1414
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:46,479
Speaker 1: in there was a certain strain of silent cinema where yes,

1415
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 1: your gestures were broad, your expressions were exaggerated, and that

1416
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 1: is the kind that Norma Desmond, we understand, had made.

1417
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 1: She's still making them to your point in her home.

1418
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: And so this is where the melancholy matt for me

1419
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: is really rooted in this yes, melodramatic, but also effective

1420
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:08,479
Speaker 1: method where we see her as a person, as a human,

1421
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:13,200
Speaker 1: deluded but once regal, once noble, and perhaps deserving to

1422
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 1: still have more of a shred of that than she

1423
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:17,040
Speaker 1: actually still has.

1424
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 2: Hey, miss Desmond, Miss Desmond, it's me.

1425
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:25,679
Speaker 4: It's hog guy.

1426
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:34,600
Speaker 2: Hello guy, let's get a good look at you. I

1427
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 2: want to touch on a few things that you mentioned there. Reportedly,

1428
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 2: at the movie's premiere, Barbara Stanwick speaking to Swanson, not

1429
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:45,959
Speaker 2: only the performance that she gives here but her standing

1430
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 2: Barbara Stanwick bowed down at her feet at the premiere

1431
01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:50,520
Speaker 2: and literally kiss.

1432
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:51,679
Speaker 1: There's another legend.

1433
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 2: But when you mention the end and the way she

1434
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 2: underplays the line about her clothes, it occurs to me that,

1435
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:06,599
Speaker 2: whether intentional or not, on Wilder and Swanson's part, it's

1436
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 2: another little bit of tragic irony, perhaps that she can't

1437
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 2: exist as an actress in this modern age of talkies,

1438
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 2: that she doesn't belong in this space, or they won't

1439
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 2: allow her in because she seems to belong to this

1440
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 2: bygone era where they overacted and as she says, they

1441
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 2: didn't need words right, they had faces. But in that moment,

1442
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 2: just like a great talkie screen actress, she's effectively able

1443
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 2: to modulate her performance and speak the lines to the

1444
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 2: camera exactly the way she needs to. So that occurs

1445
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,759
Speaker 2: to me as you were saying that, And I also

1446
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:53,080
Speaker 2: think about the heavy lifting that is done as we're

1447
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:56,439
Speaker 2: touching on this point and the bygone era of her

1448
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,240
Speaker 2: former performances, how much heavy lifting is done. By the

1449
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:05,680
Speaker 2: scene where we watch Joe and Norma watch her old movie,

1450
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 2: he in his narration, is disparaging it. He views the

1451
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:15,480
Speaker 2: whole thing as pathetic and pitiful. But Wilder's camera lingers

1452
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 2: on that movie screen, and what do we see on

1453
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 2: the screen. There's nothing pathetic or pitiful about it. We

1454
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:27,000
Speaker 2: see an astonishing face. And I think it reinforces for me, Josh,

1455
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 2: that that what she's hanging on to and what she's

1456
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 2: trying to recapture so badly. It's not even so much

1457
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:38,400
Speaker 2: her youth. I'm trying to think of the words something

1458
01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:39,719
Speaker 2: something greater than youth.

1459
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:40,720
Speaker 1: Is it?

1460
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:43,640
Speaker 2: Is it a life force? Is it a certain vitality

1461
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 2: that she's emanating? And then I realize that, of course

1462
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 2: the word is stardom. It's whatever, it's whatever makes up

1463
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,719
Speaker 2: the essence of a star. It's there in that shot

1464
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 2: that we're watching on the screen that she has, and

1465
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,559
Speaker 2: you watch it and then you somehow understand, well, of

1466
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 2: course she doesn't want to lose that. That's something she's

1467
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 2: not going to want to give up.

1468
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 1: And what do you need for startup? You need an audience,

1469
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:06,720
Speaker 1: and that's what she's lost.

1470
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:12,400
Speaker 2: You talked about that amazing shot where the light shines

1471
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 2: down on her, the spotlight, and she basks in it,

1472
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 2: and I do think that's so important. I'm really glad

1473
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 2: you said it only because I had a line in

1474
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:21,719
Speaker 2: my notes that you know, this happens sometimes you write

1475
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 2: something and then you look at it later and you go, oh,

1476
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:25,280
Speaker 2: I'm not entirely.

1477
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:25,880
Speaker 1: Sure of what I was referring.

1478
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:29,320
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, my line was tough, that the indignity of

1479
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 2: de Mille's denial follows her return, and I had return

1480
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 2: in single quotes. We'll see, I need to take better

1481
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 2: notes that or less oblique or whatever. Her return that

1482
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 2: I'm referring to is that return. The return that she

1483
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 2: gets is that moment where the light is on her

1484
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 2: and the crowd adores her, and to your point, it

1485
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 2: is genuine in that light. In that moment, the audience

1486
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:59,000
Speaker 2: that isn't just for show. They aren't pitying her. They

1487
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,720
Speaker 2: those people genuinely do know who she is, and they

1488
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:05,519
Speaker 2: come up to her and they show their gratitude to her,

1489
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,160
Speaker 2: and she's grateful for it. So we know that in

1490
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 2: the grand scheme of things, she's not the star she

1491
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:12,599
Speaker 2: once was, that she's a has been, that Max has

1492
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 2: to write the notes. We know all of that's true,

1493
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:16,599
Speaker 2: but two things can be true at once. That in

1494
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 2: that moment she gets the reverence that she probably deserves.

1495
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:23,800
Speaker 2: And so the indignity part is that soon after this,

1496
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 2: of course Demill is going to deny her She's not

1497
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 2: going to get to make this movie. And that's already

1498
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 2: hard enough for Norma to accept, considering what she believes

1499
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:38,719
Speaker 2: about herself, but imagine how much harder it is after

1500
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 2: she's actually felt the basking in the glow of the

1501
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 2: light again and it's real.

1502
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then that's maybe why she falls as far

1503
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 1: as she does mentally, at least is getting a taste

1504
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 1: of it and then not having the rest is you know,

1505
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 1: makes it even worse. So we've talked about, you know,

1506
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 1: a number of shots here, and I do think now

1507
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: I haven't seen all of Billy Wilder's films, but this

1508
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:06,600
Speaker 1: has to be one of the more visually ambitious of

1509
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:08,760
Speaker 1: those that I have seen. We spend some time in

1510
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 1: our discussion of The Apartment about how that is visually ambitious,

1511
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:14,520
Speaker 1: but I think this is an area Wilder is sometimes

1512
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: not given enough credit for. And man, are there so

1513
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 1: many aesthetic flourishes here. I want to talk about a

1514
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 1: few that aren't related necessarily to Norma Desmond, but just

1515
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:27,280
Speaker 1: the fact that this movie opens with that unbroken reverse

1516
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 1: tracking shot moving down a road and then lifts up

1517
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,120
Speaker 1: to reveal these squad cars racing toward her house. Yeah.

1518
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:37,800
Speaker 2: I mean that the American Beauty shot essentially with the narration, right,

1519
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:38,759
Speaker 2: and I kind of eight.

1520
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is definitely echoed there. That's

1521
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 1: not something you know that comes to mind that a

1522
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:48,200
Speaker 1: Billy Wilder movie would open with. And of course you

1523
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:51,400
Speaker 1: reference the shot of Gillis face down in the pool,

1524
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:54,120
Speaker 1: but there are levels of artistry to that shot because

1525
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:56,800
Speaker 1: the camera at the bottom of the pool looking up

1526
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:01,800
Speaker 1: we see his face, and then behind through the water

1527
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 1: we see the police sergeants or investigators standing at the

1528
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 1: pool's edge. It's incredibly unnerving and another great use of

1529
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 1: a crane. As Gillis is walking up the steps to

1530
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:17,320
Speaker 1: her outdoor terrace, the dilapidated terrace, and then we see

1531
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 1: her through this slow zoom, we see Norma behind some blinds,

1532
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 1: creepily watching him. I mean, these are all kind of

1533
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:30,400
Speaker 1: crime and horror techniques that are blended to create something

1534
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 1: that's very eerie, very unnerving. Goes back to the noir idea,

1535
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:38,200
Speaker 1: goes back to the Gothic idea, but it also has

1536
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:41,800
Speaker 1: this faded glamour of old Hollywood to it. So, yeah,

1537
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:46,280
Speaker 1: the filmmaking here is on his top tier level for

1538
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 1: Wilder for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

1539
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 2: I have a section here on just the filmmaking, but

1540
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 2: then I have a separate section that's just elements I love,

1541
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 2: and they're all part of the filmmaking. They're Wilder touches,

1542
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 2: if you will, I think, really reflect his brilliance and

1543
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:05,120
Speaker 2: his cleverness as a writer and a director. But they

1544
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:09,759
Speaker 2: kind of go above some of the more common things

1545
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:12,760
Speaker 2: that you may notice in the film. For me, those

1546
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 2: elements I love are things like Joe Gillis is a screenwriter,

1547
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 2: and yet he's absolutely horrendous at picking up on foreshadowing

1548
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 2: the fact that he the fact that he shows up,

1549
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 2: and even though it's misdirection or it's a mistake, they

1550
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 2: think he's someone else, the fact that they have been

1551
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 2: expecting him right suggests that there's almost something faded about

1552
01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 2: his appearing. The fact the fact that he does show

1553
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:45,160
Speaker 2: up and there's this dead monkey, which the the insanity

1554
01:27:45,200 --> 01:27:47,960
Speaker 2: of that we up in a time, right, remember we

1555
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:50,760
Speaker 2: we grew up in that time with Michael Jackson at

1556
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 2: his Neverland ranch and knew about like monkeys, and stuff and.

1557
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:58,640
Speaker 1: Bubbles was it bubbles?

1558
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:01,280
Speaker 2: But like that that to us that was in the eighties,

1559
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,200
Speaker 2: and we thought about what that was like to have

1560
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 2: animals around your house and what that said about I

1561
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:11,000
Speaker 2: don't know your state of mind. Well, you know, this

1562
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 2: is the nineteen fifties and here she is with her

1563
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:17,559
Speaker 2: pet monkey. But the fact that that monkey is carried

1564
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 2: out in a coffin, and it suggests, you know, this

1565
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:23,679
Speaker 2: pet monkey is the role he probably is going to fill.

1566
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:27,240
Speaker 2: And the fact that Max says I made your bed

1567
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 2: this afternoon before he's agreed to spend the month, and

1568
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 2: I even love just the fact that he refers to

1569
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:37,720
Speaker 2: himself as a ghostwriter. Ghost writer in this case takes

1570
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 2: on a little bit of extra meaning. I think, especially

1571
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 2: as from the beginning of the film we know that

1572
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 2: he's dead, and then when his car gets taken away,

1573
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 2: that's another moment where the car is almost like the

1574
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 2: monkey's coffin. That's when he's officially being left left behind.

1575
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:55,760
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, Joe isn't going anywhere. But the other

1576
01:28:55,800 --> 01:29:01,200
Speaker 2: little Wilder touches Josh are things like when he goes

1577
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 2: to leave at one point in a huff, and I

1578
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:06,760
Speaker 2: think it might be that that first one on New

1579
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 2: Year's Eve when he gets mad at her and and

1580
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 2: goes his pocket watch. That touch she gives to him, Yeah,

1581
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 2: gets stuck on the door. It's it's only Wilder would

1582
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:22,240
Speaker 2: think of this, right. It's almost like Norma's hand is

1583
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:26,360
Speaker 2: somehow there to just snatch him back for a second

1584
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 2: before he goes.

1585
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:30,080
Speaker 1: But it's the pocket watch they notice that, can I

1586
01:29:30,160 --> 01:29:31,800
Speaker 1: can I give you another one? Just like that when

1587
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 1: she's on the Mills set, sitting in the chair. How

1588
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:37,200
Speaker 1: about when the boom bike that boks over her head

1589
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:39,519
Speaker 1: and hits the feather on her hat and she gets

1590
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 1: like a fly. It's like a fly and annoys her.

1591
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: You know, the sound Era forced her out of business.

1592
01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:49,639
Speaker 1: And now here's this mike hitting hitting her costume.

1593
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:53,800
Speaker 2: The moment she sits down the annoying fly, the microphone

1594
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:55,040
Speaker 2: starts around her.

1595
01:29:55,479 --> 01:29:56,560
Speaker 1: It's beautiful.

1596
01:29:56,680 --> 01:30:01,360
Speaker 2: And then even from a little editing standpoint, there is

1597
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:07,680
Speaker 2: the moment where he says, just whenever she noticed that

1598
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:11,240
Speaker 2: I was getting bored that she would go back to

1599
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:14,160
Speaker 2: her favorite bit and it was like the Max Sennett

1600
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:17,920
Speaker 2: bathing beauties. And when he cuts on that it's on

1601
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 2: her umbrella. Twirling, and it feels just like one of

1602
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 2: those kaleidoscopic cuts that they got in a lot of

1603
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 2: those old timey movies. And then one other one I

1604
01:30:26,439 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 2: want to give you is near the end with Betty.

1605
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 2: The meta element here, the screenwriting element that he is

1606
01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:35,760
Speaker 2: a screenwriter, the fact that it's all rooted in Hollywood

1607
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:40,920
Speaker 2: and Hollywood lore, the way he finally comes clean with Betty.

1608
01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:46,759
Speaker 2: He tells her everything. They're writers together, and he's finally

1609
01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:50,960
Speaker 2: he's giving her the backstory. He's filling her in on everything.

1610
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:53,920
Speaker 1: And what does she say?

1611
01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 2: The way she phrases it is really interesting. She says, no, no,

1612
01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 2: I haven't heard any of this. I never got those

1613
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:05,760
Speaker 2: telephone calls. I've never been in this house. Get your

1614
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 2: things together, let's get out of here. So Betty the

1615
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 2: screenwriter is basically saying, nope, I'm taking these pages right

1616
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:16,760
Speaker 2: been written, I'm throwing them in the garbage can. I

1617
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:20,679
Speaker 2: don't care what we've written before, what you've written before.

1618
01:31:21,080 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 1: We're starting with.

1619
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:24,680
Speaker 2: A blank page. We can now just walk right out

1620
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:27,600
Speaker 2: of here and we can start a new story. And

1621
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,439
Speaker 2: he doesn't say yes to that, because it turns out

1622
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:33,639
Speaker 2: we think in the moment that it's because he feels

1623
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:38,200
Speaker 2: too guilty and that he's succumbing to the fate, the

1624
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 2: hand that he's been dealt. We realize actually that no,

1625
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 2: he is starting his new story. He's just starting it

1626
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:46,519
Speaker 2: alone as a solo screenwriter. But I love the fact

1627
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:48,599
Speaker 2: that she is a writer, is saying we can write

1628
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:51,479
Speaker 2: a new story. Joe, promise, I promise we can.

1629
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 1: There is that meta element with Betty the screenwriter played

1630
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 1: by Nancy Olsen, which I do think is nice and

1631
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:00,600
Speaker 1: feels a bit like a Wilder touch as well. But

1632
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 1: I found on this viewing that their scenes did drag

1633
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:07,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know, I don't know if I

1634
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:09,160
Speaker 1: just didn't need as many. You've got to get out

1635
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,600
Speaker 1: of the mansion at some point. I understand that. But

1636
01:32:13,400 --> 01:32:15,280
Speaker 1: the romance with gillis, I don't know where are we

1637
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 1: on Holden in this film. Let me ask you that,

1638
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:21,719
Speaker 1: because I think I liked his presence best as a narrator,

1639
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 1: his voice and his delivery. And again this is where

1640
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: a noir element comes in. I think he evokes that

1641
01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 1: well as a screen presence in his scenes with you know,

1642
01:32:32,320 --> 01:32:36,639
Speaker 1: Gloria Swanson. He works, I guess, is what i'd say.

1643
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 1: But the power dynamic is not supposed to be equal,

1644
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:45,240
Speaker 1: but the performance dynamic maybe should be a little more

1645
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:48,639
Speaker 1: equal in some way. I did like, though, and here's

1646
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 1: another nor thing I'll throw at you. I did like

1647
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:55,880
Speaker 1: Holden's Joe Gillis is essentially the femme fatale when you

1648
01:32:55,960 --> 01:33:01,440
Speaker 1: think about it. He shows up and he he's mysterious,

1649
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:07,599
Speaker 1: and he's maybe useful, maybe not. You can't quite trust him.

1650
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:11,040
Speaker 1: And how about the fact that he's absolutely a sexual

1651
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 1: object that pool scene when he gets out of the

1652
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,160
Speaker 1: pool and towels off in front of her. So I

1653
01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 1: realized that, Okay, well, this is this is interesting about

1654
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 1: his character, that he's basically playing the femme fatale in

1655
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 1: the noir. Otherwise, you know, I don't know, maybe just

1656
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,679
Speaker 1: a little bit more there from Holden might might have gone.

1657
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:29,720
Speaker 1: If you know, A'm nitpicking here. This is this is

1658
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 1: a masterpiece.

1659
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:32,879
Speaker 2: But you know, I like Holden, and I like Holden

1660
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:35,880
Speaker 2: in Wilder movies for the most part. I agree with

1661
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:39,839
Speaker 2: some of the scenes with Betty with Olsen in particular,

1662
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 2: and those moments where, for example, he's kissing her nose

1663
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 2: and we're supposed to believe that they're falling madly in

1664
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:50,040
Speaker 2: love with each other. Something about that dynamic always feels

1665
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:53,200
Speaker 2: a little bit off, and we need to believe that

1666
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:55,599
Speaker 2: they're really falling in love with each other. I never

1667
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:57,880
Speaker 2: really got it. Part of it was I just felt like,

1668
01:33:57,960 --> 01:33:59,360
Speaker 2: and I looked this up at one point, but now

1669
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:01,280
Speaker 2: I don't have it in front of me. It felt

1670
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:04,200
Speaker 2: like one of those classic Hollywood cases were just there

1671
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:06,640
Speaker 2: was a dramatic age difference. I don't know if there was,

1672
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:09,519
Speaker 2: but it feels like it on screen, you know what.

1673
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:11,280
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up. I just I meant

1674
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: to throw this out there because I was thinking about

1675
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:15,799
Speaker 1: it while watching and had forgotten. But for those curious

1676
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:20,479
Speaker 1: Gloria Swanson born eighteen ninety nine, Yeah, and William holden

1677
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,240
Speaker 1: Bourne nineteen eighteen, so what like twenty years right from

1678
01:34:23,240 --> 01:34:23,599
Speaker 1: my maath.

1679
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeahs was only fifty when she was making this film.

1680
01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1681
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:32,559
Speaker 2: So I felt a disparity in those characters that didn't

1682
01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 2: serve those scenes necessarily very well. And I'll agree with

1683
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:40,719
Speaker 2: you that maybe that entire that entire storyline feels maybe

1684
01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:44,040
Speaker 2: a little bit more rushed in a way that the

1685
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 2: rest of the film certainly certainly doesn't. We need the

1686
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,600
Speaker 2: plot mechanics of their relationship to fuel the end of

1687
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:53,600
Speaker 2: the text. I still love some of those touches, like

1688
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:56,400
Speaker 2: the one I mentioned, and really just the overall the

1689
01:34:56,560 --> 01:35:00,360
Speaker 2: cleverness and I'll use that word again, the irony away

1690
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:05,240
Speaker 2: Wilder and Bracket. They've constructed this story the last film

1691
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:07,960
Speaker 2: he worked with Bracket on, where they've constructed this entire

1692
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:10,599
Speaker 2: thing around this notion as we see in the beginning,

1693
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:13,280
Speaker 2: that all Joe wants to do is write something that

1694
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 2: will sell. That's all he's trying to do, and he's

1695
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:20,000
Speaker 2: failing miserably. And then what happens He stops writing and

1696
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:24,840
Speaker 2: he becomes embroiled in a story that's the best, most

1697
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:28,280
Speaker 2: sensational story maybe of all time. Think about how well

1698
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:32,160
Speaker 2: this story is going to play, right. He's not going

1699
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:35,200
Speaker 2: to reap any benefits of it, you know, but but

1700
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 2: it is going to sell like hotcakes and and is

1701
01:35:39,080 --> 01:35:41,840
Speaker 2: probably going to get turned into a movie at some point.

1702
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:44,280
Speaker 1: Right, maybe win a couple oscars.

1703
01:35:44,320 --> 01:35:46,759
Speaker 2: Who knows, it might even win a couple of oscars.

1704
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:49,639
Speaker 2: How about some of the lines, right, I mean, besides

1705
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:51,519
Speaker 2: the fact that you've got the poor dope he always

1706
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:54,639
Speaker 2: wanted to pool, just of course, and and that goes

1707
01:35:54,720 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 2: with the shot as you mentioned. And I think they

1708
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:59,320
Speaker 2: used a mirror some kind of effect that they pulled

1709
01:35:59,320 --> 01:35:59,639
Speaker 2: off there.

1710
01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:00,400
Speaker 1: That was amazing.

1711
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:04,799
Speaker 2: I love the way he describes her still waving proudly

1712
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:07,479
Speaker 2: to a parade that had long since passed her by.

1713
01:36:08,120 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 2: If you can write lines for that, right, And another

1714
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 2: one later when he's filling Betty in he says, an

1715
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:16,599
Speaker 2: older woman who is well to do a younger man

1716
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:18,439
Speaker 2: who is not doing too well? Can you figure it

1717
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 2: out yourself?

1718
01:36:19,120 --> 01:36:19,599
Speaker 1: Is pretty good.

1719
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:22,160
Speaker 2: And even just what he does with the narration the way,

1720
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:25,959
Speaker 2: not only do we have the aspect of a narrator

1721
01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:30,760
Speaker 2: who is clearly dead that's telling the entire story in flashback,

1722
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:34,000
Speaker 2: but I like the fact that there's a moment, Josh,

1723
01:36:34,080 --> 01:36:37,120
Speaker 2: where the narrator cuts himself off at one point. It's

1724
01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 2: as if, even though it's all happening in the past,

1725
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:40,880
Speaker 2: it's as if it's happening in real time.

1726
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:41,680
Speaker 1: He says uh oh.

1727
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:45,799
Speaker 2: He says uh oh and stops himself, and that adds

1728
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:49,680
Speaker 2: just another like bit of excitement to the whole proceedings.

1729
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. I do like the narration in this quite a bit.

1730
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 1: I'll lend us with one more line, and it brings

1731
01:36:56,280 --> 01:36:59,000
Speaker 1: us back to what we started talking about at the beginning,

1732
01:36:59,040 --> 01:37:02,559
Speaker 1: which is norma, you know, humanity really which we see

1733
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:05,320
Speaker 1: in this film. And at one point she says, great

1734
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 1: stars have great pride, And I think that's key to

1735
01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:11,639
Speaker 1: the performance, because I do think that's something Swanson deeply,

1736
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:14,640
Speaker 1: intimately understood and is able to bring it to the

1737
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:21,320
Speaker 1: fore and make again Norma someone who's maybe has been,

1738
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 1: but her feelings about that are real and genuine, and

1739
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:26,519
Speaker 1: that comes through in the film. Yeah, it does.

1740
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 2: And I want to end with mentioning the iconography which

1741
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:35,040
Speaker 2: you talked about a little bit at the beginning, and

1742
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:39,120
Speaker 2: the way the film is established in this setting. We've

1743
01:37:39,200 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 2: got schwabs. That's part of the iconography of Hollywood, the storytelling,

1744
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:47,400
Speaker 2: the classic story of the discovery of certain actresses at

1745
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:51,639
Speaker 2: the drug store and the Hollywood pools, which of course

1746
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:54,000
Speaker 2: has to be a key part of this story. People

1747
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:57,240
Speaker 2: who come normal people who come from the Midwest out

1748
01:37:57,320 --> 01:37:59,320
Speaker 2: to live their dreams and they do right.

1749
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:01,400
Speaker 1: And of course where is he going back to. He's

1750
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:02,519
Speaker 1: going back to Ohio.

1751
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 2: It's always the Midwest where we come from, right where

1752
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:07,840
Speaker 2: they come from to go out to Hollywood and live

1753
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:12,280
Speaker 2: their dreams, and the beginning of the film, it's not

1754
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:15,200
Speaker 2: like it is in so many Hollywood films that are

1755
01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 2: about this dream where you're seeing the Hollywood Sign and

1756
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,840
Speaker 2: you're seeing the movie premiere and the studios and all

1757
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:25,679
Speaker 2: the lights and stuff. Right, it is the dingiest street

1758
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:29,280
Speaker 2: you've ever seen, and the abandoned tennis court covered in leaves,

1759
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:32,240
Speaker 2: and it is so dirty and grimy. And the fact

1760
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:35,400
Speaker 2: that the title of the film isn't Sunset Boulevard in

1761
01:38:35,479 --> 01:38:38,679
Speaker 2: some kind of radiant way, right, it's just the words

1762
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:40,040
Speaker 2: in writing on the street.

1763
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 1: It immediately clues.

1764
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:44,680
Speaker 2: You in to what kind of movie this is going

1765
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:46,280
Speaker 2: to be, and that it's going to have some fun

1766
01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 2: with your expectations. It's going to subvert what we think

1767
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 2: of as the classic Hollywood dream kind of tale. And

1768
01:38:53,240 --> 01:38:55,439
Speaker 2: we get that with the fun he has as well,

1769
01:38:56,120 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 2: with the waxworks, with characters like Keith bringing some of

1770
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 2: these those classic folks. Yeah, that's it, and you just

1771
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:10,680
Speaker 2: you add those elements in with the cleverness and with

1772
01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:15,360
Speaker 2: the economy of the filmmaking. Even like we get the

1773
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:19,080
Speaker 2: moment where we learn why there are no door knobs

1774
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:23,080
Speaker 2: on the doors, and then when Joe leaves and she

1775
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:26,960
Speaker 2: goes upstairs, the camera just shows us the door closing

1776
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:30,600
Speaker 2: and focuses on the door, and in that moment, we

1777
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:33,880
Speaker 2: know exactly what's coming next. We don't need anything more,

1778
01:39:34,040 --> 01:39:37,400
Speaker 2: we don't need to go inside. We know exactly just

1779
01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:42,800
Speaker 2: by that simple establishing of what that door knob means

1780
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:46,120
Speaker 2: and the fact that the camera shows us that as

1781
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:48,680
Speaker 2: she closes it, we know what is coming next. And

1782
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 2: he's just so as I said, economic and smart as

1783
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,640
Speaker 2: a filmmaker. And then there are those grand touches like

1784
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:57,639
Speaker 2: we've mentioned as.

1785
01:39:57,479 --> 01:39:59,839
Speaker 1: Well, effective use of you know, the lack of doorknobs

1786
01:39:59,880 --> 01:40:01,680
Speaker 1: through out with the lighting as well. You know, when

1787
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:04,200
Speaker 1: the light comes on it'll then shine through the open holes,

1788
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:07,559
Speaker 1: or when it goes out it's extra ominous. So yeah,

1789
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:10,639
Speaker 1: employs that motif quite well throughout.

1790
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:13,600
Speaker 2: The last one I just thought of is when you

1791
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:17,840
Speaker 2: were talking about the fact that the whole place really

1792
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:20,559
Speaker 2: is like this silent film set that she's created. At

1793
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 2: New Year's Eve, it feels that way when you've got

1794
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 2: a live orchestra playing. But how about the fact that

1795
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:30,559
Speaker 2: they reference in that early scene that the wind comes

1796
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:32,960
Speaker 2: in and it makes the organ play so it's like

1797
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:35,960
Speaker 2: the whole place is alive, and you get these moments

1798
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:40,200
Speaker 2: of music accompaniment to whatever is happening within the space.

1799
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:43,759
Speaker 2: He just doesn't he doesn't overlook anything. Wilder and actually,

1800
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:45,680
Speaker 2: what we haven't even touched on, I'll just I'll leave

1801
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 2: it here. We don't need to get into it. But

1802
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 2: having just talked about the apartment, and I know the

1803
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:53,760
Speaker 2: Apartment comes ten years after this, but there is very

1804
01:40:53,880 --> 01:41:01,479
Speaker 2: direct overlap in the concepts of opportunism, and Wilder very

1805
01:41:01,520 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 2: directly said everybody in this movie is an opportunist if

1806
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:06,679
Speaker 2: you think about it, even Betty, who's kind of playing

1807
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:09,560
Speaker 2: like the wide eyed naive or she seems like the

1808
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 2: very ideological Well, no, she's in this certainly at first

1809
01:41:14,080 --> 01:41:14,439
Speaker 2: because she.

1810
01:41:14,439 --> 01:41:18,280
Speaker 1: Wants to get a screenplay published. It takes art her

1811
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:20,680
Speaker 1: her fiance. You get that sense for sure. Yeah, Yeah,

1812
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 1: she wants to move up.

1813
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:23,880
Speaker 2: She doesn't want to be a script reader anymore. She

1814
01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:27,760
Speaker 2: wants to be a screen writer. And in the end,

1815
01:41:28,439 --> 01:41:33,439
Speaker 2: what Joe shows us I think Josh by leaving, by

1816
01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:36,080
Speaker 2: trying to leave, is that he finally figures out what

1817
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:39,720
Speaker 2: Jack Lemon learns at the end of the Apartment. He

1818
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:41,640
Speaker 2: learns how to be a mensch, He learns how to

1819
01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 2: be a human being. He finally learns that it's not

1820
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:49,559
Speaker 2: good for him or for her for Norma to continue

1821
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:53,320
Speaker 2: using her. He also knows it's wrong for Betty and Artie,

1822
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 2: his friend, for him to run off with Betty, and

1823
01:41:56,120 --> 01:41:59,120
Speaker 2: he decides he's going to be a human being. He's

1824
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:01,360
Speaker 2: just going to leave. He's not going to blame anyone

1825
01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:03,360
Speaker 2: else for his problems. He's not going to try to

1826
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:06,040
Speaker 2: cause any more problems for anyone else. He is just

1827
01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:08,360
Speaker 2: going to go and he's going to live his life.

1828
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:10,519
Speaker 2: But it's too late, and that's the tragedy of it.

1829
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:11,639
Speaker 2: I think he learns the lesson.

1830
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:14,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the added layer in this, you know, and

1831
01:42:14,720 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 1: it involves suicide, as the apartment does. But there's the

1832
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:23,120
Speaker 1: added layer of what responsibility might he bear for leaving

1833
01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:25,720
Speaker 1: at this point, you know, to your point about him

1834
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,600
Speaker 1: trying to get what he wants and being a bit

1835
01:42:27,640 --> 01:42:30,000
Speaker 1: of a player in all of this and a striver,

1836
01:42:31,000 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: he carries something of a burden even though you feel

1837
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:39,479
Speaker 1: like these aren't empty threats, but there they are threats

1838
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:41,640
Speaker 1: she knows she can make. There is there is a

1839
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:44,439
Speaker 1: level of complication there that I think is interesting, which

1840
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:48,400
Speaker 1: which is it's perhaps the right decision, but maybe not

1841
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:51,120
Speaker 1: necessarily a noble one. I don't know. At the same

1842
01:42:51,200 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 1: time a little complicated. How can you put that burden

1843
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:56,320
Speaker 1: on him right here? Because she was in this she

1844
01:42:56,439 --> 01:42:59,240
Speaker 1: was in this state before he arrived as well.

1845
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sunset Boulevard is available vod If you agree or

1846
01:43:03,920 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 2: disagree with us, or have any other thoughts you'd like

1847
01:43:06,080 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 2: to share about that conversation or the show, we would

1848
01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:11,360
Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Feedback of filmspotting dot net.

1849
01:43:11,720 --> 01:43:14,280
Speaker 1: That is our show. You can find Adam and the

1850
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:18,519
Speaker 1: show on Instagram, Facebook, or letterboxed at film Spotting. I'm

1851
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: at those places as well as Blue Sky as Larsen

1852
01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 1: on film We are independently produced and listener supported. You

1853
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:27,679
Speaker 1: can support the show by joining the film Spotting Family

1854
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: at film spottingfamily dot com. That way, you'll be able

1855
01:43:30,920 --> 01:43:33,640
Speaker 1: to listen early and ad free. You'll also get a

1856
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:37,200
Speaker 1: weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire

1857
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:39,720
Speaker 1: show archive. For show t shirts and other merch you

1858
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:42,479
Speaker 1: can go to filmspotting dot net slash shop.

1859
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:46,720
Speaker 2: We did just discuss the apartment on episode ten twenty two.

1860
01:43:47,439 --> 01:43:51,280
Speaker 2: Double Indemnity was on episode eight ninety nine eight eighty

1861
01:43:51,360 --> 01:43:54,120
Speaker 2: nine excuse Me, part of the Summer of Stanwick Marathon,

1862
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:56,799
Speaker 2: and back in twenty ten we did that Billy Wilder

1863
01:43:56,920 --> 01:44:01,400
Speaker 2: Marathon streaming this weekend. I wasn't that excited to see

1864
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:05,639
Speaker 2: this movie, Josh as I started initially reading the blurb here,

1865
01:44:05,760 --> 01:44:08,679
Speaker 2: even though I love Eddie Murphy. Eddie Murphy and Pete

1866
01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:11,640
Speaker 2: Davidson are armored truck drivers who get ambushed by a

1867
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:14,720
Speaker 2: group of ruthless criminals. But then I saw who that

1868
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:18,599
Speaker 2: group of ruthless criminals was led by, and it's Keky Palmer.

1869
01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:21,000
Speaker 1: I know I was in the same boat. The screening

1870
01:44:21,080 --> 01:44:23,040
Speaker 1: invite came for this and I was like eh, and

1871
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 1: then oh, maybe I'll have to go to this couldn't

1872
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:30,360
Speaker 1: make it work, but am intrigued and Keiky Palmer is

1873
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:32,280
Speaker 1: reason enough to catch up with it at some point.

1874
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 2: And you can do that on Amazon Prime. In limited release,

1875
01:44:36,280 --> 01:44:39,599
Speaker 2: the new documentary from Amy J. Berg, who made deliver

1876
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:42,559
Speaker 2: Us from Evil and Janics Little Girl Blue. It's about

1877
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:46,560
Speaker 2: the singer songwriter immortalized by his cover of Leonard Cohones Hallelujah.

1878
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:50,360
Speaker 2: Jeff Buckley the documentary is It's Never Over Jeff Buckley.

1879
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:53,880
Speaker 2: My Mother's Wedding is also out. Three sisters return home

1880
01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 2: for the third wedding of their twice widowed mother. It's

1881
01:44:56,840 --> 01:45:00,320
Speaker 2: directed by Kristin Scott Thomas and stars Scarlett, Joe Nansen,

1882
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 2: and Sienna Miller. In wide release, Freakier Friday, I'm told

1883
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:08,120
Speaker 2: Josh that it's another Freaky Friday, but just a little

1884
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:08,919
Speaker 2: bit freakier.

1885
01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:10,400
Speaker 1: I mean, how could it not be.

1886
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:15,879
Speaker 2: Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan team up again. Weapons

1887
01:45:16,000 --> 01:45:18,360
Speaker 2: is also out. This is the new one from Zach Krager,

1888
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:21,639
Speaker 2: who did twenty twenty two's Barbarian. Every kid but one

1889
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:24,360
Speaker 2: from the same class vanish on the same night at

1890
01:45:24,360 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 2: the exact same time. Julia Garner, Josh Brolin, Alden aarn

1891
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:31,080
Speaker 2: Reich and Benedict Wong. We are going to have to

1892
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:33,519
Speaker 2: get to the bottom of why every kid but one

1893
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:35,880
Speaker 2: vanishes from that class on the same night, at the

1894
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:39,400
Speaker 2: same time, and talk about that next week. I'm definitely

1895
01:45:39,479 --> 01:45:41,760
Speaker 2: going to see the Jeff Buckley doc. We'll see what

1896
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:43,760
Speaker 2: else comes up on next week's show.

1897
01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:46,840
Speaker 1: Film Spotting is produced by Golden, Joe Desso and Sam

1898
01:45:46,960 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 1: van Hoggren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show would

1899
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:53,160
Speaker 1: it go? Our production assistant is Sophi Kempenier. Special thanks

1900
01:45:53,200 --> 01:45:57,080
Speaker 1: to everyone at WBEAZ Chicago. More information is available at

1901
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:00,920
Speaker 1: wbez dot org. For films Spotting Night, Josh Larson and

1902
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:02,880
Speaker 1: I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1903
01:46:03,160 --> 01:46:06,080
Speaker 3: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

1904
01:46:07,000 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 1: Good Bye.

1905
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:26,960
Speaker 2: Film Spotting is listeners supported. Join the film Spotting Family

1906
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:29,880
Speaker 2: at Filmspotting Family dot com and get access to ad

1907
01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:33,360
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1911
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