WEBVTT - Railroad Ties 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:05.360 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.320 I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:09.920 writing about true crime. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:13.160 And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.799 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.160 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.040 compelling true crimes, and. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.880 I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:26.440 insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:32.040 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.760 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.160 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:45.800 This is buried bones. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:02.440 Ay, Kate, how are you? 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:04.679 I'm doing well? How are you? 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.480 Because I hear there's a rumor floating around that there's 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.640 some new hip stuff happening. 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:11.440 What's the update? 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:13.960 Oh? Good god, you know I'm falling apart. 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.800 It's you had a little grunt right before you even 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:21.800 I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh at your misfortune. Okay, 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:22.559 you're falling apart. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.440 I think I talked about, you know, I had gone 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.440 in to see the the orthopedic surgeon, and at least 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.640 through X ray, it's obvious I have arthritis and my 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.920 left hip, so ended up getting an MRI done to 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.520 take a look at the soft tissue, and it's a mess. 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.440 It's the labrum, which is sort of the cartilage like 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.040 a cup that surrounds the head of the femur. Well, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.600 that's that's shredded. I have a kind of this impingement 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.640 called a can defect, which the docs that I could 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.080 have been born with it, but most likely it developed 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.480 during all the athletics I did during my you know, 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:07.040 adolescent years, and every time I move my leg a 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.680 certain direction, this hump gets pushed into the joint itself 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.040 and that's probably what has just shredded my my laborum, 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.239 and then I have other torn muscles. You know, it's 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.720 just a disaster. So I'm what I'm I have to 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.360 be mobile. The writing's on the wall. I'm gonna need 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.040 my hip replaced at some point. But I'm going to 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.160 try this PRP injection just to see if I can 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.160 slow down the arthritis, the progression of the arthritis as 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.640 well as My hope is is that it would help, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.920 you know, the labrum a little bit, but you know, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.720 it's it's a long shot. But I'm just I have 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.200 too many things going on, case wise, project wise. I 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.040 have to I have to remain mobile. I can't have 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:52.520 my leg cut off just yet. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.240 Just yeah, what is the doctor saying that you need 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.360 to stop doing because you're super active? Is are like 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.280 hiking or mountain biking that you need to lay off of? 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.679 Well? I have reduced my activities just because every time 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.000 I do any of those, especially just walking, you know, 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.480 with all the travel, like you know, skurrying around the 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.920 Denver airport, my hip will just start to ache. And 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:22.200 I'm pretty sure that most of the pain is coming 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.720 from the laborum because I can feel it like will 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.919 catch and then if I push it past that catching point, 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.760 it aches the rest of the day. So this is 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.760 where the PRP. My hope is is I can resume 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.560 normal activities and I need to, you know, It's it's 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.040 not like you just want to stop moving. Yeah, And 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.440 so I'll see what he says after, you know, he 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:52.040 sticks the needle and my my groin basically and pumps 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.480 me full of plasma. 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.480 Oh, I'm so sorry, I was just you know, between 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.040 I'm sure all the listeners realize this, but between the 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.160 two of us, I review our episodes because Paul does 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.440 not want to listen to himself anything at all, so 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.400 I hear myself way too often. And we in the 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.040 episode that I was reviewing, we were talking about your 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.160 hip before and talking about the tendency of men, not 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.760 just men, but a lot of people to not want 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.880 to go that step into you know, go to the 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.240 doctor and certainly not pursue something like surgery. But I'm 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.040 proud of you for doing that, because nobody should live 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:31.920 in pain and then it gets worse and worse until 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:32.800 it's intolerable. 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.440 You know. I do not want to get to a 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.800 point to where I am not physically capable. And I 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:45.000 remember going into my shoulder surgery, my shoulder replacement. I 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.600 was so nervous, you know, because it's a pretty serious 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.880 surgery and I had never been under general anesthesia for 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.280 that length of time. Now, having gone through the shoulder, 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.800 I'm less resistant to the hip, you know, if and 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.480 when I ultimately do it, because I'm pretty confident that 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.839 the surgery will go fine now that I've been through 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.279 it once before. But now that my shoulder is fully 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.320 healed and I see all the functionality come back so 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:20.520 much better than what it was pre operation, that I'll 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.720 do the surgeries. I'll have all the joints replaced at 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.920 some point, just so I have the functionality now. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.360 I think I've talked to some of my friends about this. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.400 When there's something clearly from your past that you've done that, 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.080 maybe you know a parent or a girlfriend or somebody said, Paul, 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.080 I don't know. Like my stepfather did construction for forever 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.080 and now he really really feels it. You know, he's 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.080 in his late seventies. Do you think back, Oh, I 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:46.880 wish I had. I wish somebody had been a little 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.880 more forceful about that. Or were your glory day memories 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:52.520 totally worth what's happening now? 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.640 No, you know, the sports side, I just participated in 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.719 the sports, you know, I never was on any type 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:03.920 of time, you know, to pursue it. At post high school, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:10.080 I would say, probably what my biggest regret is that's 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:14.960 causing me the issues is the the heavy weightlifting with 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:19.279 poor technique and I'm just not I'm not this really 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.480 robust guy, you know, with the big bones and everything. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.200 And I remember when I was I think it was 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:29.520 a teenage years, I was lifting on base and I 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.680 had done a kind of an internship with the orthopedic 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.120 unit at the Dava Grant Medical Center at Travis Air 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.680 Force Base, and one of those surgeons was was working 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.400 out at the gym and he saw me bench pressing 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.840 and it was horrible for him. It was heavy, heavy weight. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.120 I'm bouncing it off my chest. And he came up 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.080 and he said, stop that, thank you. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.000 Yeah, somebody has been reasonable. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.960 I didn't stop it, you know, And that's just that's 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.320 where Now that I'm older, a little bit wiser on 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.760 that front, I've really modified what I do in the 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.240 gym and I feel it it's easier on my joints, 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.120 using a little lighter weight, you know, doing more repetitions, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.480 more sets. So you know that, I think it really 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.720 is my regret. It's that ego lifting that guys do. 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.160 You're in the gym and you want to press as 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.000 much weight and wow, everybody around you, Well, that's wear 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:24.040 and tear on your body. 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:24.920 Yeah. 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.360 Well, I'll tell you something I haven't. I don't really 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:28.680 don't talk about very much. 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.120 You know. I have a personal trainer who I love. 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:38.000 Shout out to Nate, and Nate specializes in people older 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:38.640 than fifty. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:39.960 It was forty eight. 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.600 I think maybe forty seven when I first went to 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.360 him and I had to say, listen, you know, can 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.280 you take me? And he said yes. And I've never 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.480 gotten hurt with him. I've gotten to a point where 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.080 I could deadlift my own weight, which is a huge 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.880 deal for me, and I haven't gotten hurt, and he 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.880 always knows how to step back when I feel. You know, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.800 I have eights that everybody else has. Weightlifting, know for men, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.400 but especially for women as we get older, is so important, 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.480 you know, building muscle and not losing your muscle and 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.000 with bone density and everything. So so I'm proud of 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.520 myself for being able to do that, but it definitely 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.080 is I've been hurt enough times with people who I 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.360 don't think know what they're doing that I'm really happy 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.440 to be with Nate because I feel protected. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.000 He's not going to ask me to do anything that 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:23.760 I don't want to do. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.880 You know. Sure, yeah, I know. That's that's good. I see, 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.240 I've never used a personal trainer. I've just done things myself, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.320 you know, and I'm better now than I was back 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:33.800 in the day. 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:36.160 Well, that's good. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:37.800 I think you would like a personal trainer if you're 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:39.680 I mean, you know, it's a very privileged thing to 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.720 be able to have that, but man, it really I 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.120 just get scared of hurting myself permanently somehow because I 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.920 you know, in TV news, I worked with a lot 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.000 of camera guys who in my favorite was this guy 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.280 named Lance. He would use those huge beta cam cameras, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:09:00.240 the big ones, and I don't remember what, but he 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.240 had a couple of discs that got crushed and he 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.160 was going to have to have surgery. Did have surgery, 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.720 I think, And so that kind of growing up around 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.280 these people getting hurt from all of this equipment that 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.320 justared the frankly scared the shit out of me. So 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.720 I'm very chicken, but I'm trying to move forward in 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.080 a way that's responsible for me. 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.360 So well, that's just said it. And it takes so 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.640 long to heal from injuries anymore, so I agree. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.000 Okay, Well, enough about our our aches and pains, which 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.480 I'm pretty sure the majority of. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.360 Our listeners probably share with us. 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.920 We are going to talk about a story and it's 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.680 a setting that we've really never talked about before. So 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.840 I'm pretty excited, you know, about what we're going to 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.000 be dealing with today, just because Number one it's in 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:44.679 the eighteen hundred. 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:46.320 Number two, it's in upstate, New York. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.080 Love Love, and then you know, number three, we've got 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.240 a murder scene that's going to be interesting. So let's 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.559 go ahead and set the scene. So we are, as 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:02.400 I said, in New York State. This is summertime, eighteen 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.040 ninety nine. We're right at the turn of the century, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.319 so this is an interesting time to deal with. And 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:13.480 sometimes I think these stories are more interesting than the ones, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.559 you know, moving forward, because I feel like with these stories, 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.080 because we don't have the photos, and you know that 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.360 kind of the visual part of it. Even though I 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.520 know it's more difficult for you, I think we have 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.000 to start leaning on a little bit more profiling and 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.800 kind of being creative about the way that we approach 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.720 these stories versus other stories that we do in the 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.320 fifties of the sixties that have photos. And of course 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.800 you're going to say, screw all that, I want the photos. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:41.280 I don't want to be creative, Kate. 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.080 No, you know, I work with what you can provide me. 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:50.400 I know, Okay, Well, we are in New York State. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.760 It is Thursday, June eighth, as I said, eighteen ninety nine, 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.400 and we are on dund A train and we've never 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.000 dealt with a train before. I don't think we've dealt 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.600 with a train before. Somebody will probably email me and say, oh, yeah, 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.800 you have. I don't remember, So this is kind of 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.360 cool in Texas, I don't ride trains. When I lived 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.000 in New York, I took trains all the time between 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:12.720 the states, and when I went to school in Boston, 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.600 you know, I was all over trains. Are there quite 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.920 a few trains right in Colorado? Are there passenger trains 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:20.440 that you can do fun stuff on? 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.280 Or well? The one that I can that comes to 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.200 mind that I've been on is what's called the cog Railway, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.560 and it's a special type. I'd call it a train 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.360 that goes up the side of Pike's Peak. I've done that, okay, yeah, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.760 So you go from Manitou Springs up the Pike's Peak. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.000 And it had shut down when we first moved here. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.120 It was it was done, and then they put in 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.960 a brand new train, I believe, and new tracks or 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.920 fixed up the tracks. And so about three years ago, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.480 when my oldest son was out visiting, we took them 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.040 up that train and it was very it was fascinating, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.120 very comfortable. It's environmentally controlled, so if you're you know, 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.640 in the winter time here, that's pro problem if you're 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.920 just out exposed to the elements. So that's the one 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.800 that I can think of. And you know, my train 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.480 writing experience is very limited. I took an Amtrak from 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.760 Santa Barbara down to LA. Actually it was after oh 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.200 it's my favorite murder event in Santa Barbara and then 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.600 go I had to go down to LA to do more. 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.280 I think it was TV stuff and that was That 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.319 was a comfortable ride. You know, it's just it's easy 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:25.480 just to relax on a train. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:26.560 I love trains. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.680 When I lived in New York, I worked at Fordham University. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:31.440 I was teaching. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.599 I was full time faculty, and I was going I 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.160 don't know if it's still there, but I was going 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.959 to what was known as their Marymount Campus, which is 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:44.160 in North Terrytown aka Sleepy Hollow. So this was my dream. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.840 You can imagine this is my dream. I really, I 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.199 really wanted to be there, and I loved it. I mean, 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.319 I got so much work done. I found it relaxed, 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.280 way more relaxing than be on a subway. So this 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.400 is not that kind of story. We are not relaxing 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.800 one little bit, and I don't think passengers are going 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.120 to relax on this either. Okay, So we are on 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.760 a train that sounds like a load of fun. Frankly, 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:12.120 it's a theater run train, so it's really popular you. 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.440 Go with your spouse on date night. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:18.679 And it's a forty five minute route between Lockport, New York, 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.240 and it goes to Buffalo. So people hop on and 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.360 off the train and it takes you right to the 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.760 theater in Buffalo and then you know, you see the 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.080 show and you hop back on. And so this train 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.000 is running a lot, and I think there are several 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:37.480 of them. So with this train, So, like I said, 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.160 June eighth, it's around midnight and people are coming back 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.600 from the show in Buffalo, and it's heading towards Lockport. 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.640 About a quarter of a mile after it goes through 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:54.240 a town called Shawnee, the engineer realizes that something's wrong. 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:59.120 The breaks aren't working properly. Yikes, I mean petrifying. He 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.720 slows down the train to a halt and then he 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.480 hops off and he inspects it and he sees that 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.480 there's a small cap that has popped off one of 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.440 the break pipes underneath the train, and it looks like 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.080 it had hit something and been knocked loose. It's a 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.959 little terrifying that one little cap being popped off will 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:19.720 make the brakes. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:20.560 Feel like they're not working. 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.160 But welcome to eighteen ninety nine, you know, train, So 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.880 it's not a big deal. The guy, Roger Metcath, the engineer, 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.880 he grabs an extra cap, he puts it on, and 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.760 then they continue on the way. The next day, so 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.960 this would be Friday, June ninth, he inspects his train 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.000 and Roger Metcathy, engineer says, he hops down and he looks, 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.960 and he says that he thinks there is a small 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:54.080 piece of human flesh on the front of the train. Now, 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.040 let me just tell you real quick. There is an 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.120 author who is fantastic. Her name's Michelle Graff. She wrote 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.520 a book about it, which is what I looked at 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.960 and the researchers looked at. She described it as about 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:09.120 the size of a hen's egg yolk. And I don't 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.280 know how you would identify human flesh. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.880 Is it obvious? I guess I've never really thought about 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:15.360 it before. 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:21.360 Let's say it's something that has some skin remnant on it, 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.560 and you can see let's let's say, skin off of 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.720 a man's arm right where you You know, how the 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.600 hair on a man's arm would be pretty obvious, going, Okay, 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.360 that looks like it could be human tissue. If it's 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:39.160 just tissue, you know, from the internal aspects of the body, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.560 I think it would be pretty tough to come to a 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.640 conclusion it's human. You may say it looks like, you know, 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.040 the train hit an animal, you know, during its route. 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.080 Well, Roger is alarmed, and he says, I might have 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.560 hit somebody last night on my last run. I have 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.600 no idea, and if I hit someone, that's why the 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:57.520 cap came off. 0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:59.239 Even though it's not that unusual. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.360 He didn't see anything on the tracks anywhere, so this 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.240 was a big mystery. So he files a report with 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.920 the railroad agent, and there is an investigator who comes 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.000 on the case, and his name is John Perhamis. And 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.840 I will say upfront, I'm fairly impressed with the investigators 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.960 in eighteen ninety nine. Sometimes they are better than our 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.200 nineteen hundreds people. He files a report. We've got somebody 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.560 who says, okay, I'm you know, an investigator who is 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.400 going to go look for somebody or something on the 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.720 track around where this cap fell off. The next day, 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.560 there's a farm hand named Charles Bliss, and he makes 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.520 a terrible discovery. He wakes up early in the morning 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.440 that morning, probably around the same time that Roger is 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.720 making this discovery of the flesh on the front of 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:45.200 his train. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.400 He says that he sees mangled human remains at the 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:55.280 railroad crossing near Shawnee. They went from Buffalo toward Lockport, 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:57.640 and they went through Shawnee no problems. 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.320 But then after Shawne that's where we have an issue. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.200 Keith thinks that it's a woman. So when I say mangled, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.399 that's what I mean mangled because she appears to be 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.520 wearing a dress, and the author, Michelle Graff, says it 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.880 looked as though the train had dragged her for some distance. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.679 The wheels had severed her legs, and one side of 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.879 her face was badly crushed. One of her hands still 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.800 stretched across the rail. So I mean, tough crime scene 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.720 for whoever's going to be looking at this. Tell me, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.040 just at first glance, before we talked specifically about this case, 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.479 what would be the obvious challenges of dealing with somebody 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.840 who's dead on the tracks, but they're trying to figure 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.199 out is this accident is a suicide or is this 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:43.159 to cover up a murder? 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.160 For sure. In fact, we've had, of course multiple call 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.480 them pedestrians run over by trains, and my jurisdiction during 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:56.800 my career, I never worked a death scene. None of 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.840 them required, let's say, a homicide investigation to kick off. 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.960 I have seen a body in the Morgue that had 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:06.919 been run over by a train, and then I have 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:11.560 a very similar scenario where a man was dumped out 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.040 on the freeway in the middle of the night when 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.119 it was real foggy, and got run over by many 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.240 cars and his body was torn apart and smeared across 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:19.640 a quarter mile of the freeway. 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:21.400 But he was dead first, right. 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.439 Well, actually no, he was. He had been rolled up 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.520 in a carpet and then pushed off out of the 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.640 bed of a pickup while he was still alive. Oh 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.239 my gosh, that case. And that wasn't he wasn't hit 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.200 by a train. He was hit by vehicles on a road. 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.679 But it kind kind of the same type of scene 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.800 because trains, when you say mangled human body, trains are 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.359 not kind to the human body. Basically are diced up 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.359 and smeared over the course of you know, fifty hundred 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:55.679 two hundred feet. In that particular case that was interviews 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:00.199 with the suspects got it in terms of trying to 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.960 determine if the person was alive or not at the 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.480 time they were struck with the train. Of course there's 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.560 going to be witnesses, potential witnesses, you know that can 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.320 say she jumped out in front of the train. Now, 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:18.159 in terms of any physical diagnostic aspects, I think that 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.040 would be tough. That's where I would be asking the pathologist, 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.200 is there any way you can tell was this person 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.480 alive or not? You know, were they dead, you know, 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.879 laid on the tracks, you know, to cover up a 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.479 crime or as a body disposal aspect, or you know, 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.679 were they bound and left alive on the on the 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:38.199 tracks like you see in the old movies. 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:42.280 Right, well, let me give you some more information. We 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.440 have this investigator, and then we also have a corner 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.960 who to me is surprisingly involved. I did not think corners, 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:51.760 you know, kind of went into the field. 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.080 So he's the elected corner. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:55.760 Or yeah, it looks like it. 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.879 He's a Niagara County corner, one corner for this whole area. 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:05.280 Okay, just from a coroner's perspective is you know, today 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.320 they often have death investigators that go out in the field, 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.320 but back probably during this time, you saw more of 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.600 the pathologists or the corners themselves that were actually responding out. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:17.879 Yeah, from American Sherlock. 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.240 I had a train explosion, and this was before the FBI, 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.080 and so the Southern Union Pacific I think is the train. 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:28.680 They sent out their own investigators. And because it was 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.480 a US Postal worker who was killed in this blast, 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.040 US Postal sent out there investigators. So you've got all 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:38.000 of this jurisdiction mess because you don't have this centralized agency. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.919 So we have the first investigator I mentioned, who was 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:47.520 with the railroad I believe, and then you've got our corner, 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.040 whose name is Henry Cleveland. He comes to the scene 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:56.080 about the same time as Agent Paramus comes out. They 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.760 both reached the you know, the not surprising conclusion here 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.040 that the woman who they thought was actually just a 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.080 teenager was killed after being struck by the train. And 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:07.800 I do have more information on the body and the 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.240 positioning and all of that. They are trying to figure 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.480 out if this is accidental of course, or suicide. Murder 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.520 does not seem to be on the table right now. 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.040 So the coroner says, the last train to come through 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.760 these tracks was that Lockport bound train on the Theater 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:29.320