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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 3: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 3: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Ay, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How are you?

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Speaker 2: Because I hear there's a rumor floating around that there's

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Speaker 2: some new hip stuff happening.

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Speaker 1: What's the update?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Good god, you know I'm falling apart.

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Speaker 2: It's you had a little grunt right before you even

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh at your misfortune. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you're falling apart.

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Speaker 3: I think I talked about, you know, I had gone

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Speaker 3: in to see the the orthopedic surgeon, and at least

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Speaker 3: through X ray, it's obvious I have arthritis and my

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Speaker 3: left hip, so ended up getting an MRI done to

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Speaker 3: take a look at the soft tissue, and it's a mess.

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Speaker 3: It's the labrum, which is sort of the cartilage like

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Speaker 3: a cup that surrounds the head of the femur. Well,

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Speaker 3: that's that's shredded. I have a kind of this impingement

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Speaker 3: called a can defect, which the docs that I could

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Speaker 3: have been born with it, but most likely it developed

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Speaker 3: during all the athletics I did during my you know,

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Speaker 3: adolescent years, and every time I move my leg a

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Speaker 3: certain direction, this hump gets pushed into the joint itself

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Speaker 3: and that's probably what has just shredded my my laborum,

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Speaker 3: and then I have other torn muscles. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: just a disaster. So I'm what I'm I have to

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Speaker 3: be mobile. The writing's on the wall. I'm gonna need

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Speaker 3: my hip replaced at some point. But I'm going to

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Speaker 3: try this PRP injection just to see if I can

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Speaker 3: slow down the arthritis, the progression of the arthritis as

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Speaker 3: well as My hope is is that it would help,

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Speaker 3: you know, the labrum a little bit, but you know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's a long shot. But I'm just I have

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Speaker 3: too many things going on, case wise, project wise. I

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Speaker 3: have to I have to remain mobile. I can't have

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Speaker 3: my leg cut off just yet.

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Speaker 2: Just yeah, what is the doctor saying that you need

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Speaker 2: to stop doing because you're super active? Is are like

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Speaker 2: hiking or mountain biking that you need to lay off of?

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Speaker 3: Well? I have reduced my activities just because every time

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Speaker 3: I do any of those, especially just walking, you know,

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Speaker 3: with all the travel, like you know, skurrying around the

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Speaker 3: Denver airport, my hip will just start to ache. And

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that most of the pain is coming

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Speaker 3: from the laborum because I can feel it like will

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Speaker 3: catch and then if I push it past that catching point,

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Speaker 3: it aches the rest of the day. So this is

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Speaker 3: where the PRP. My hope is is I can resume

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Speaker 3: normal activities and I need to, you know, It's it's

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Speaker 3: not like you just want to stop moving. Yeah, And

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Speaker 3: so I'll see what he says after, you know, he

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Speaker 3: sticks the needle and my my groin basically and pumps

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Speaker 3: me full of plasma.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so sorry, I was just you know, between

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Speaker 2: I'm sure all the listeners realize this, but between the

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Speaker 2: two of us, I review our episodes because Paul does

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Speaker 2: not want to listen to himself anything at all, so

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Speaker 2: I hear myself way too often. And we in the

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Speaker 2: episode that I was reviewing, we were talking about your

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Speaker 2: hip before and talking about the tendency of men, not

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Speaker 2: just men, but a lot of people to not want

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Speaker 2: to go that step into you know, go to the

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Speaker 2: doctor and certainly not pursue something like surgery. But I'm

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Speaker 2: proud of you for doing that, because nobody should live

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Speaker 2: in pain and then it gets worse and worse until

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Speaker 2: it's intolerable.

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Speaker 3: You know. I do not want to get to a

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Speaker 3: point to where I am not physically capable. And I

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Speaker 3: remember going into my shoulder surgery, my shoulder replacement. I

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Speaker 3: was so nervous, you know, because it's a pretty serious

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Speaker 3: surgery and I had never been under general anesthesia for

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Speaker 3: that length of time. Now, having gone through the shoulder,

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Speaker 3: I'm less resistant to the hip, you know, if and

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Speaker 3: when I ultimately do it, because I'm pretty confident that

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Speaker 3: the surgery will go fine now that I've been through

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Speaker 3: it once before. But now that my shoulder is fully

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Speaker 3: healed and I see all the functionality come back so

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Speaker 3: much better than what it was pre operation, that I'll

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Speaker 3: do the surgeries. I'll have all the joints replaced at

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Speaker 3: some point, just so I have the functionality now.

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Speaker 1: I think I've talked to some of my friends about this.

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Speaker 2: When there's something clearly from your past that you've done that,

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Speaker 2: maybe you know a parent or a girlfriend or somebody said, Paul,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Like my stepfather did construction for forever

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Speaker 2: and now he really really feels it. You know, he's

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Speaker 2: in his late seventies. Do you think back, Oh, I

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Speaker 2: wish I had. I wish somebody had been a little

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Speaker 2: more forceful about that. Or were your glory day memories

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Speaker 2: totally worth what's happening now?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, the sports side, I just participated in

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Speaker 3: the sports, you know, I never was on any type

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Speaker 3: of time, you know, to pursue it. At post high school,

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Speaker 3: I would say, probably what my biggest regret is that's

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Speaker 3: causing me the issues is the the heavy weightlifting with

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Speaker 3: poor technique and I'm just not I'm not this really

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Speaker 3: robust guy, you know, with the big bones and everything.

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Speaker 3: And I remember when I was I think it was

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Speaker 3: a teenage years, I was lifting on base and I

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Speaker 3: had done a kind of an internship with the orthopedic

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Speaker 3: unit at the Dava Grant Medical Center at Travis Air

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Speaker 3: Force Base, and one of those surgeons was was working

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Speaker 3: out at the gym and he saw me bench pressing

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Speaker 3: and it was horrible for him. It was heavy, heavy weight.

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Speaker 3: I'm bouncing it off my chest. And he came up

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Speaker 3: and he said, stop that, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody has been reasonable.

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Speaker 3: I didn't stop it, you know, And that's just that's

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Speaker 3: where Now that I'm older, a little bit wiser on

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Speaker 3: that front, I've really modified what I do in the

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Speaker 3: gym and I feel it it's easier on my joints,

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Speaker 3: using a little lighter weight, you know, doing more repetitions,

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Speaker 3: more sets. So you know that, I think it really

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Speaker 3: is my regret. It's that ego lifting that guys do.

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Speaker 3: You're in the gym and you want to press as

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Speaker 3: much weight and wow, everybody around you, Well, that's wear

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Speaker 3: and tear on your body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you something I haven't. I don't really

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Speaker 2: don't talk about very much.

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Speaker 1: You know. I have a personal trainer who I love.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to Nate, and Nate specializes in people older

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Speaker 2: than fifty.

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Speaker 1: It was forty eight.

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Speaker 2: I think maybe forty seven when I first went to

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Speaker 2: him and I had to say, listen, you know, can

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Speaker 2: you take me? And he said yes. And I've never

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Speaker 2: gotten hurt with him. I've gotten to a point where

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Speaker 2: I could deadlift my own weight, which is a huge

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Speaker 2: deal for me, and I haven't gotten hurt, and he

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Speaker 2: always knows how to step back when I feel. You know,

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Speaker 2: I have eights that everybody else has. Weightlifting, know for men,

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Speaker 2: but especially for women as we get older, is so important,

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Speaker 2: you know, building muscle and not losing your muscle and

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Speaker 2: with bone density and everything. So so I'm proud of

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Speaker 2: myself for being able to do that, but it definitely

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Speaker 2: is I've been hurt enough times with people who I

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Speaker 2: don't think know what they're doing that I'm really happy

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Speaker 2: to be with Nate because I feel protected.

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Speaker 1: He's not going to ask me to do anything that

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do.

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Speaker 3: You know. Sure, yeah, I know. That's that's good. I see,

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Speaker 3: I've never used a personal trainer. I've just done things myself,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I'm better now than I was back

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Speaker 3: in the day.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's good.

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Speaker 2: I think you would like a personal trainer if you're

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's a very privileged thing to

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Speaker 2: be able to have that, but man, it really I

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Speaker 2: just get scared of hurting myself permanently somehow because I

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Speaker 2: you know, in TV news, I worked with a lot

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Speaker 2: of camera guys who in my favorite was this guy

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Speaker 2: named Lance. He would use those huge beta cam cameras,

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Speaker 2: the big ones, and I don't remember what, but he

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Speaker 2: had a couple of discs that got crushed and he

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Speaker 2: was going to have to have surgery. Did have surgery,

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Speaker 2: I think, And so that kind of growing up around

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Speaker 2: these people getting hurt from all of this equipment that

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Speaker 2: justared the frankly scared the shit out of me. So

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Speaker 2: I'm very chicken, but I'm trying to move forward in

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Speaker 2: a way that's responsible for me.

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Speaker 3: So well, that's just said it. And it takes so

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Speaker 3: long to heal from injuries anymore, so I agree.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, enough about our our aches and pains, which

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure the majority of.

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Speaker 1: Our listeners probably share with us.

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Speaker 2: We are going to talk about a story and it's

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Speaker 2: a setting that we've really never talked about before. So

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty excited, you know, about what we're going to

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Speaker 2: be dealing with today, just because Number one it's in

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Speaker 2: the eighteen hundred.

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Speaker 1: Number two, it's in upstate, New York.

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Speaker 2: Love Love, and then you know, number three, we've got

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Speaker 2: a murder scene that's going to be interesting. So let's

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Speaker 2: go ahead and set the scene. So we are, as

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Speaker 2: I said, in New York State. This is summertime, eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety nine. We're right at the turn of the century,

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Speaker 2: so this is an interesting time to deal with. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes I think these stories are more interesting than the ones,

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Speaker 2: you know, moving forward, because I feel like with these stories,

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Speaker 2: because we don't have the photos, and you know that

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Speaker 2: kind of the visual part of it. Even though I

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Speaker 2: know it's more difficult for you, I think we have

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Speaker 2: to start leaning on a little bit more profiling and

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Speaker 2: kind of being creative about the way that we approach

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Speaker 2: these stories versus other stories that we do in the

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Speaker 2: fifties of the sixties that have photos. And of course

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Speaker 2: you're going to say, screw all that, I want the photos.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be creative, Kate.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, I work with what you can provide me.

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Speaker 2: I know, Okay, Well, we are in New York State.

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Speaker 2: It is Thursday, June eighth, as I said, eighteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 2: and we are on dund A train and we've never

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Speaker 2: dealt with a train before. I don't think we've dealt

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Speaker 2: with a train before. Somebody will probably email me and say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you have. I don't remember, So this is kind of

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Speaker 2: cool in Texas, I don't ride trains. When I lived

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Speaker 2: in New York, I took trains all the time between

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Speaker 2: the states, and when I went to school in Boston,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was all over trains. Are there quite

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Speaker 2: a few trains right in Colorado? Are there passenger trains

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Speaker 2: that you can do fun stuff on?

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Speaker 3: Or well? The one that I can that comes to

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Speaker 3: mind that I've been on is what's called the cog Railway,

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Speaker 3: and it's a special type. I'd call it a train

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Speaker 3: that goes up the side of Pike's Peak. I've done that, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: So you go from Manitou Springs up the Pike's Peak.

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Speaker 3: And it had shut down when we first moved here.

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Speaker 3: It was it was done, and then they put in

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Speaker 3: a brand new train, I believe, and new tracks or

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Speaker 3: fixed up the tracks. And so about three years ago,

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Speaker 3: when my oldest son was out visiting, we took them

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Speaker 3: up that train and it was very it was fascinating,

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Speaker 3: very comfortable. It's environmentally controlled, so if you're you know,

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Speaker 3: in the winter time here, that's pro problem if you're

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Speaker 3: just out exposed to the elements. So that's the one

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Speaker 3: that I can think of. And you know, my train

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Speaker 3: writing experience is very limited. I took an Amtrak from

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Speaker 3: Santa Barbara down to LA. Actually it was after oh

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Speaker 3: it's my favorite murder event in Santa Barbara and then

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Speaker 3: go I had to go down to LA to do more.

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Speaker 3: I think it was TV stuff and that was That

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Speaker 3: was a comfortable ride. You know, it's just it's easy

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Speaker 3: just to relax on a train.

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Speaker 1: I love trains.

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Speaker 2: When I lived in New York, I worked at Fordham University.

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Speaker 1: I was teaching.

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Speaker 2: I was full time faculty, and I was going I

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Speaker 2: don't know if it's still there, but I was going

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Speaker 2: to what was known as their Marymount Campus, which is

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Speaker 2: in North Terrytown aka Sleepy Hollow. So this was my dream.

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Speaker 2: You can imagine this is my dream. I really, I

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Speaker 2: really wanted to be there, and I loved it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I got so much work done. I found it relaxed,

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Speaker 2: way more relaxing than be on a subway. So this

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Speaker 2: is not that kind of story. We are not relaxing

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Speaker 2: one little bit, and I don't think passengers are going

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Speaker 2: to relax on this either. Okay, So we are on

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Speaker 2: a train that sounds like a load of fun. Frankly,

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Speaker 2: it's a theater run train, so it's really popular you.

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Speaker 1: Go with your spouse on date night.

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Speaker 2: And it's a forty five minute route between Lockport, New York,

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Speaker 2: and it goes to Buffalo. So people hop on and

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Speaker 2: off the train and it takes you right to the

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Speaker 2: theater in Buffalo and then you know, you see the

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Speaker 2: show and you hop back on. And so this train

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Speaker 2: is running a lot, and I think there are several

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Speaker 2: of them. So with this train, So, like I said,

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Speaker 2: June eighth, it's around midnight and people are coming back

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Speaker 2: from the show in Buffalo, and it's heading towards Lockport.

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Speaker 2: About a quarter of a mile after it goes through

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Speaker 2: a town called Shawnee, the engineer realizes that something's wrong.

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Speaker 2: The breaks aren't working properly. Yikes, I mean petrifying. He

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Speaker 2: slows down the train to a halt and then he

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Speaker 2: hops off and he inspects it and he sees that

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Speaker 2: there's a small cap that has popped off one of

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Speaker 2: the break pipes underneath the train, and it looks like

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Speaker 2: it had hit something and been knocked loose. It's a

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Speaker 2: little terrifying that one little cap being popped off will

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Speaker 2: make the brakes.

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Speaker 1: Feel like they're not working.

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Speaker 2: But welcome to eighteen ninety nine, you know, train, So

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Speaker 2: it's not a big deal. The guy, Roger Metcath, the engineer,

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Speaker 2: he grabs an extra cap, he puts it on, and

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Speaker 2: then they continue on the way. The next day, so

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Speaker 2: this would be Friday, June ninth, he inspects his train

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Speaker 2: and Roger Metcathy, engineer says, he hops down and he looks,

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Speaker 2: and he says that he thinks there is a small

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Speaker 2: piece of human flesh on the front of the train. Now,

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Speaker 2: let me just tell you real quick. There is an

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Speaker 2: author who is fantastic. Her name's Michelle Graff. She wrote

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Speaker 2: a book about it, which is what I looked at

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Speaker 2: and the researchers looked at. She described it as about

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Speaker 2: the size of a hen's egg yolk. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know how you would identify human flesh.

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Speaker 1: Is it obvious? I guess I've never really thought about

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Speaker 1: it before.

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Speaker 3: Let's say it's something that has some skin remnant on it,

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Speaker 3: and you can see let's let's say, skin off of

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Speaker 3: a man's arm right where you You know, how the

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Speaker 3: hair on a man's arm would be pretty obvious, going, Okay,

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Speaker 3: that looks like it could be human tissue. If it's

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Speaker 3: just tissue, you know, from the internal aspects of the body,

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Speaker 3: I think it would be pretty tough to come to a

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Speaker 3: conclusion it's human. You may say it looks like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the train hit an animal, you know, during its route.

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Speaker 2: Well, Roger is alarmed, and he says, I might have

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Speaker 2: hit somebody last night on my last run. I have

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Speaker 2: no idea, and if I hit someone, that's why the

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Speaker 2: cap came off.

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Speaker 1: Even though it's not that unusual.

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Speaker 2: He didn't see anything on the tracks anywhere, so this

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Speaker 2: was a big mystery. So he files a report with

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Speaker 2: the railroad agent, and there is an investigator who comes

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Speaker 2: on the case, and his name is John Perhamis. And

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Speaker 2: I will say upfront, I'm fairly impressed with the investigators

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Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety nine. Sometimes they are better than our

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds people. He files a report. We've got somebody

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Speaker 2: who says, okay, I'm you know, an investigator who is

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Speaker 2: going to go look for somebody or something on the

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Speaker 2: track around where this cap fell off. The next day,

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Speaker 2: there's a farm hand named Charles Bliss, and he makes

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Speaker 2: a terrible discovery. He wakes up early in the morning

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Speaker 2: that morning, probably around the same time that Roger is

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Speaker 2: making this discovery of the flesh on the front of

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Speaker 2: his train.

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Speaker 1: He says that he sees mangled human remains at the

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Speaker 1: railroad crossing near Shawnee. They went from Buffalo toward Lockport,

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Speaker 1: and they went through Shawnee no problems.

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Speaker 2: But then after Shawne that's where we have an issue.

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Speaker 2: Keith thinks that it's a woman. So when I say mangled,

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Speaker 2: that's what I mean mangled because she appears to be

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Speaker 2: wearing a dress, and the author, Michelle Graff, says it

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Speaker 2: looked as though the train had dragged her for some distance.

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Speaker 2: The wheels had severed her legs, and one side of

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Speaker 2: her face was badly crushed. One of her hands still

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Speaker 2: stretched across the rail. So I mean, tough crime scene

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Speaker 2: for whoever's going to be looking at this. Tell me,

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Speaker 2: just at first glance, before we talked specifically about this case,

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Speaker 2: what would be the obvious challenges of dealing with somebody

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Speaker 2: who's dead on the tracks, but they're trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out is this accident is a suicide or is this

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Speaker 2: to cover up a murder?

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Speaker 3: For sure. In fact, we've had, of course multiple call

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Speaker 3: them pedestrians run over by trains, and my jurisdiction during

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Speaker 3: my career, I never worked a death scene. None of

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Speaker 3: them required, let's say, a homicide investigation to kick off.

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Speaker 3: I have seen a body in the Morgue that had

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Speaker 3: been run over by a train, and then I have

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Speaker 3: a very similar scenario where a man was dumped out

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Speaker 3: on the freeway in the middle of the night when

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Speaker 3: it was real foggy, and got run over by many

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Speaker 3: cars and his body was torn apart and smeared across

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Speaker 3: a quarter mile of the freeway.

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Speaker 1: But he was dead first, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually no, he was. He had been rolled up

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Speaker 3: in a carpet and then pushed off out of the

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Speaker 3: bed of a pickup while he was still alive. Oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, that case. And that wasn't he wasn't hit

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Speaker 3: by a train. He was hit by vehicles on a road.

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Speaker 3: But it kind kind of the same type of scene

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Speaker 3: because trains, when you say mangled human body, trains are

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Speaker 3: not kind to the human body. Basically are diced up

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Speaker 3: and smeared over the course of you know, fifty hundred

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Speaker 3: two hundred feet. In that particular case that was interviews

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Speaker 3: with the suspects got it in terms of trying to

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Speaker 3: determine if the person was alive or not at the

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Speaker 3: time they were struck with the train. Of course there's

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Speaker 3: going to be witnesses, potential witnesses, you know that can

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Speaker 3: say she jumped out in front of the train. Now,

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Speaker 3: in terms of any physical diagnostic aspects, I think that

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Speaker 3: would be tough. That's where I would be asking the pathologist,

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Speaker 3: is there any way you can tell was this person

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Speaker 3: alive or not? You know, were they dead, you know,

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Speaker 3: laid on the tracks, you know, to cover up a

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Speaker 3: crime or as a body disposal aspect, or you know,

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Speaker 3: were they bound and left alive on the on the

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Speaker 3: tracks like you see in the old movies.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, let me give you some more information. We

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Speaker 2: have this investigator, and then we also have a corner

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Speaker 2: who to me is surprisingly involved. I did not think corners,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of went into the field.

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Speaker 3: So he's the elected corner.

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Speaker 1: Or yeah, it looks like it.

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Speaker 2: He's a Niagara County corner, one corner for this whole area.

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Speaker 3: Okay, just from a coroner's perspective is you know, today

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Speaker 3: they often have death investigators that go out in the field,

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Speaker 3: but back probably during this time, you saw more of

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Speaker 3: the pathologists or the corners themselves that were actually responding out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, from American Sherlock.

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Speaker 2: I had a train explosion, and this was before the FBI,

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Speaker 2: and so the Southern Union Pacific I think is the train.

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Speaker 2: They sent out their own investigators. And because it was

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Speaker 2: a US Postal worker who was killed in this blast,

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00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: US Postal sent out there investigators. So you've got all

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Speaker 2: of this jurisdiction mess because you don't have this centralized agency.

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Speaker 2: So we have the first investigator I mentioned, who was

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Speaker 2: with the railroad I believe, and then you've got our corner,

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Speaker 2: whose name is Henry Cleveland. He comes to the scene

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Speaker 2: about the same time as Agent Paramus comes out. They

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Speaker 2: both reached the you know, the not surprising conclusion here

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Speaker 2: that the woman who they thought was actually just a

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Speaker 2: teenager was killed after being struck by the train. And

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Speaker 2: I do have more information on the body and the

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Speaker 2: positioning and all of that. They are trying to figure

397
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Speaker 2: out if this is accidental of course, or suicide. Murder

398
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 2: does not seem to be on the table right now.

399
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Speaker 2: So the coroner says, the last train to come through

400
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Speaker 2: these tracks was that Lockport bound train on the Theater

401
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: run around midnight, and it would have been moving, according

402
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Speaker 2: to the engineer, about thirty miles an hour. And now

403
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Speaker 2: doctor Cleveland is trying to figure out not only who

404
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 2: this victim is, but the circumstances of her death.

405
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Speaker 1: He has been to I know you asked this a lot.

406
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Speaker 2: What is the experience of the investigators and the coroner

407
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Speaker 2: and the pathologist. So Cleveland has been to quite a

408
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: lot of these lots of accidental deaths involving trains. Actually,

409
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Speaker 2: about a month before this incident, he worked a case

410
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Speaker 2: where a sixteen year old was fatally struck while attempting

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Speaker 2: to cross a set of tracks. She had been thrown

412
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,719
Speaker 2: nearly twenty five feet, and this is where doctor Cleveland

413
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 2: starts to bring in his own experience to kind of

414
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 2: figure out what's going on here. What Cleveland says is

415
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Speaker 2: the key differences to him so far are that there's

416
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Speaker 2: almost no blood at this scene, and apparently at the

417
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: other scene that was not the case, there was blood everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So that's what he says so far.

419
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Speaker 2: So they're you know, trying to put together and murder

420
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: is going to be on the table here pretty quickly.

421
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Speaker 2: So what do you think about that she's on the

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Speaker 2: tracks but no blood And Cleveland says, that's weird.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that's significant. When somebody's run over by a

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Speaker 3: train and you know, they all their blood is in

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00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 3: their body and all these reservoirs, in the blood vessels

426
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 3: and everywhere that's all opened up, you know, so you're

427
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 3: going to have a significant amount of blood. It's not

428
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 3: going to be pooled in one location unless you know

429
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 3: the primary you know, parts of the body come to

430
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 3: rest one location. But you will see that blood smeared

431
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,479
Speaker 3: all along the tracks, if you will, you know, along

432
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Speaker 3: the part of the track that the body is being

433
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,959
Speaker 3: cut up on and smeared down. So this is where

434
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 3: if there is no blood from this woman's body, then

435
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: that would tell me that she bled out somewhere else.

436
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 3: And now it's the autopsy is significant because it's a

437
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 3: can the pathologist identify other bleeding injuries, let's say, stab

438
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 3: wounds amongst this mangled mess that he's looking at.

439
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you, they first start tackling before

440
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: they get to an autopsy. They tackle the body positioning

441
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 2: because they're still making notes about this. So this is

442
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: the best we could do with the description based on,

443
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 2: you know, all the notes that we have. The teenager's

444
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: body was thought to be positioned before the train struck her.

445
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: As what they think.

446
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: Her upper body was off the tracks, on the planking,

447
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 2: and her torso was laying across the easternmost rail, and

448
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: her legs were actually on the track, which is why

449
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 2: they were severed from the rest of her body. So

450
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: it's kind of like she's across the tracks, laying over

451
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: different parts of the tracks.

452
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you?

453
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 3: That does make sense?

454
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So now Agent Paramus is very alarmed. They're trying

455
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: to work out this theory, even though the death took

456
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 2: place at the railroad crossing. He says he's convinced that

457
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: the girl hadn't been crossing the tracks, or even standing

458
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: for that matter. He says, if she were standing up,

459
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: she would have been thrown off the tracks, just like

460
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: what happened a month ago. Is it really that, I mean,

461
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: if this is a teenager who's five foot five, is

462
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: that really the case.

463
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 3: Well, this is where when you get into vehicular accidents

464
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: with pedestrians, there is a way to reconstruct the position

465
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 3: of the pedestrian based on let's say, the front of

466
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 3: the car, you know. And so if you have a

467
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: pedestrian that is standing up and is hit broadside by

468
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: the front of a high, flat surface like the front

469
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 3: of a pickup, that person is going to be thrown

470
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: quite a distance depending on the speed of the pickup.

471
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 3: The mass of that pickup is so much well the

472
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 3: mass of a train. You know, a person is you're

473
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 3: not even going to feel a bump in a train.

474
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: And so a train traveling at thirty miles an hour

475
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 3: if this woman is standing up and you know, it's

476
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 3: also what is the front of this train? Is there

477
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: one of those I guess you call it a cattle guard,

478
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 3: you know, or is it a flat surface or you

479
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: know what is that the front of the train. But

480
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: that's where this investigator and the corner are taking a look, going, Yeah,

481
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 3: she was just let's say, walking down the tracks and

482
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: then gets hit by the front of this train going

483
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: at thirty miles an hour. She would have been tossed,

484
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: you know, you would see all that blunt force injury

485
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: and she would have just been thrown. Oftentimes, you'll see,

486
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: like with pedestrians that commit suicide on the freeway, they

487
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 3: may have like tennis shoes on that are completely tied up.

488
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 3: They are literally pulled out of the tennis shoes. The

489
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: shoes end up almost staying on the freeway while the

490
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 3: body is thrown, you know, fifty feet down down the freeway.

491
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: So I imagine with a train traveling at a certain speed

492
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: would have a similar type of force, and so they're going, uh,

493
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: she was laying on the tracks. And this is where

494
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 3: it's from a sequence standpoint. If she's laying on the

495
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: tracks and the front of the train is designed in

496
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: a certain way where it's low down, would she have

497
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: been pushed away before kind of bawling up underneath it?

498
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: Or when the train stopped, was she placed in between

499
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 3: let's say two cars and then the train starts up again.

500
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: That's awful, think about.

501
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, agent Paramus feels like this is a suicide

502
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 2: and he thinks that she came and laid on the tracks,

503
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: and that's how you get it both ways. Now, the coroner,

504
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: to his credit, says, I don't think that's what happened.

505
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: And he's it's interesting because he's not thinking medically, he's

506
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: thinking more common sense. He said, we know when this

507
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: happened because the cap fell off. Trains were going back

508
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: and forth here. You know, we know when this happened.

509
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: And he said, what is a teenage girl doing out

510
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: here by herself at midnight? He said, it just doesn't

511
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: make any sense whatsoever. And you know that she's out

512
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 2: walking alone, and maybe she snuck out and did this,

513
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: but he he is really thinking there has to be

514
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 2: a much bigger investigation.

515
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 3: Well, sure, you know, the lack of blood is a

516
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: red flag, and then you know, part of I think

517
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 3: my thought is is that, Okay, one potential, let's say

518
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 3: victim pool if you will, is like what you brought up.

519
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: You know, teenage girl out walking in a relatively remote

520
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 3: location along the train tracks. That does happen, you know,

521
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 3: But you also have individuals on the train the train stopped.

522
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: Was she a passenger on the train? Yep?

523
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: Good question.

524
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: So what the coroner does is he starts interviewing railroad workers.

525
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that Agent Paramus is with him through all

526
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: of this, But I'm just hearing this from doctor Cleveland's

527
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: see what I mean. I mean, I didn't think would

528
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: he do that? Would a corner normally do that? He's

529
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 2: investigating in the field.

530
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 3: Well, this is this is a death investigation. That is

531
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: his role. And then the paramus is that his name. Yeah,

532
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 3: he's looking at this as okay, is this falling into

533
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 3: where now you have homicide? Because if it's if it's

534
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: suicide or accidental, then basically it's all on the corner.

535
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: So that's now the coroner has to come to a

536
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: decision and find evidence to suggest what is the manner

537
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: of death with this teenage girl.

538
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you what the real workers say, Cleveland.

539
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: Doctor Cleveland talks to one in particular, he asks the worker,

540
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, you know these tracks, it's midnight, it's dark.

541
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: Would anybody have seen her? And he said, from where

542
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: the engineer was coming from. And the engineer corroborates this

543
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: from the way and the speed the engineer was coming from.

544
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: In the speed that he was at.

545
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: There's a huge poll that would have blocked the view.

546
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: If she were on the track already, he wouldn't have

547
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: seen her. And as you've already noted, nobody would have

548
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: felt this, you know, a body on the tracks in

549
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: that way, he said.

550
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: The worker's very astute worker.

551
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: He says, if anybody had wanted to put the body

552
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: there to run it over, you couldn't have picked a

553
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: better spot. It looks to me like it was placed

554
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: on the track with great care and after a little

555
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: bit of study on the situation. But he's not deducing

556
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: that if this is murder and she was murdered somewhere else,

557
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: that the killer is trying to ask her identity, because

558
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: I think he thought to himself, why not put her

559
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: face on the track, Why not put her head on

560
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: the track, and then you'll it will be very difficult

561
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: unless somebody's looking for her, it'll be very difficult to

562
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: identify her. And you know, you can see her face,

563
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: so she'll be able to be identified soon.

564
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, in eighteen ninety nine, I mean this

565
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: is really probably before this jurisdiction would have been using

566
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 3: any type of fingerprint for identification, so you know, the

567
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: facial identification or just you know, like her dress, there's

568
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: a missing person's report, can you match up what the

569
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: victim's wearing her physical description to a missing person's report?

570
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: But yeah, it would be difficult. These remains are a mess. Yeah,

571
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: that's further complicating identifying this victim.

572
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: Well, what they're doing is canvassing the whole area, and

573
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: they're starting with the towns, the areas, you know, the

574
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: rural places that are closest to the tracks, and then

575
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: trying to move outward. They find out while they're interviewing

576
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 2: these folks that there is a family called the Trips.

577
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: They are wealthy for.

578
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: That area, well known, and they had just reported a

579
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: teenage girl missing. Let me tell you about the family.

580
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: It's a very very big family. But the patriarch who

581
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: is you know, we've got a couple of key people

582
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: who are important.

583
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: The patriarch is Henry.

584
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: His wife is Matilda, and they have an adult daughter

585
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: whose name is Aya. Aya still lives on the homestead

586
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: and along with her brother whose name is Lauren, and

587
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: he has a wife named Carrie. There's a homestead and

588
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: then Lauren and Carrie live across the street. So very

589
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: tight knit family. They have a teenage daughter. Her name

590
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: is Sarah Mumford. Sarah is the victim in this case.

591
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: So they are four miles from the crossing and the

592
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: Trips have been knocking on all of their neighbor's doors

593
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: since ten pm the night before, So this bad thing

594
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: happens at midnight on the eighth. They two hours before

595
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: started looking for Sarah. They say that Sarah, who had

596
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: been living with them for you know, four to six years,

597
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: has vanished.

598
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: She is sixteen.

599
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: She had left the house around nine o'clock and she

600
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 2: said that she was going to go visit members of

601
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: the family. It could have been her adopted brother or

602
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: her brother across the street and his wife.

603
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: They don't know, but you know, it's unclear.

604
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: They but she was supposed to leave and go visit

605
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: some family members, and she didn't come home. What I

606
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: think is interesting is she leaves at nine, and then

607
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: at ten o'clock, they immediately become worried and they start

608
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: knocking on doors. And the reason I say that's weird is,

609
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: of course you've picked up by now about the lack

610
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: of communication. In the eighteen hundreds, we have often and

611
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: in the early nineteen hundreds, we've had stories where people

612
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: don't report family members missing for several days because it's

613
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: not abnormal. There's no phones, and people come home when

614
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: they come home. And so I was a little alarmed

615
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: by the one hour thing that seems a little early

616
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: to panic, but maybe.

617
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: Not suspiciously quick. That's what I kind of going. Why

618
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: so quick? You know she's leaving the house at nine

619
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: o'clock to go visit family. Has she been told, hey,

620
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: you have to be back by nine point thirty. Okay,

621
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: I'm just going to tuck that little detail away and

622
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 3: we'll see where this goes.

623
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: The corner decides that he needs to talk to friends

624
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: and family of the Trips and specifically of Sarah.

625
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: In this inquesty.

626
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: He has a lot of people come and testify, including

627
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: several laborers and farm hands who work on or near

628
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: the trip homestead, and they tell the coroner's jury that

629
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: Sarah was grossly mistreated by her adopted family. In the

630
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: form of a so a trigger warning for folks, just

631
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, we are going to be talking about abuse

632
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: of different kinds coming up here on the story. So,

633
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: the witnesses say within the last year, Sarah became more

634
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: and more isolated. She stopped going to church in school,

635
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: she was dressed in ripped up clothes all the.

636
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: Time, worn down shoes.

637
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: It felt to neighbors like she had been told to

638
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: stop talking to them. A lot of the testimony suggested

639
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 2: that she had endured a lot of physical abuse and

640
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: torture at the hands of the Trips. The witnesses said

641
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: that they had seen Sarah be tied up, whipped, hit,

642
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: hung from a back shed by her wrists. One report

643
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: says that Sarah was sometimes locked in the corn crib

644
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: as punishment for falling behind on her housework. I forgot

645
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: to look to see what a corn crib is.

646
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: I know you've never heard of that.

647
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,479
Speaker 2: Well, I the reason I want to know is because

648
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: I want to know how how small or big thiss is.

649
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it looks like a barn to me.

650
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 3: So who's doing all of this abuse? Is it Henry

651
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: or or other family members also participating?

652
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: It sounds like several different kinds of people.

653
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: They're vague right now, but I think the adoptive father

654
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: is the head of it. Of course, none of this

655
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: makes the trip family, who is a respectable family and

656
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: they're you know, very well known and they're wealthy for

657
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: the area. Doesn't make them look any good at all.

658
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: But there's also no smoking gun in this case. So

659
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: if anything, what people who are defending the Trips say

660
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: is isn't this just more evidence of why Sarah was

661
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 2: willing to go and lay down on the railroad tracks

662
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: and take her own life because she was miserable and

663
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 2: she was abused.

664
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 1: Which you can go both ways on that, right.

665
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, That's what I was thinking is on one hand,

666
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: you know, victimology would suggest that potentially she was just

667
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 3: done with life and decided, you know, I can't take

668
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: this anymore. But on the other hand, you now have

669
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 3: a family that's willing to commit a level of violence

670
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 3: against her. I suspect with the types of violence that's

671
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 3: occurring to Sarah, I wouldn't also think that there's possibly

672
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 3: sexual abuse going on by Henry or maybe one of

673
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 3: the other men in this family. But then, as you

674
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 3: were talking, this isn't just the family that's on this property.

675
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 3: You have a whole other, suspect pool of farm hands

676
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: and whoever else is flowing in and out of this

677
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 3: homestead slash farm. Yeah.

678
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: The other thing I was thinking about, Paul, if you

679
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: put together this picture of this family, which seems controlling.

680
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: They said she's being isolated. You know, I'm sure they're

681
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 2: keeping an eye on her. Would they really let her

682
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: leave the homestead at nine o'clock at night to maybe

683
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: run away or maybe call for help.

684
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: I don't know.

685
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: It just seems a little weird that they're are like,

686
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: go ahead, Sarah, go have a good time.

687
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: We'll see you whenever, and then they freak out.

688
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: I think that's a very good point that you are making.

689
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: You know, they are showing a level of coursive control

690
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: over Sarah. You know, and this is this is part

691
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 3: of what you see in abuse situations, you know, whether

692
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: it be domestic abuse or its abuse against children. You see,

693
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: the offender gets more and more control over that victim

694
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 3: to a point because that offender knows if the victim

695
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 3: is able to get outside of my control, and that

696
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 3: could be physically outside or electronically today or whatever else,

697
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 3: that victim could divulge and the offender, of course now

698
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: is at risk of being brought to the attention of authorities.

699
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: But also for an offender that wants to continuously abuse,

700
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: they lose that access to the victim if the victim leaves.

701
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 3: And so in this particular case, the fact that she's

702
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 3: only gone for an hour and now they're frantically looking

703
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 3: for her, that that's like, oh, we lost control.

704
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: Uh oh, And doctor Cleveland is more and more suspicious.

705
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: I don't know about Agent Paramus at this point, but

706
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: I'm impressed with the coroner here. He is more and

707
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: more suspicious. This inquest goes on for weeks. He it

708
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: sounds like, calls everybody in the area to get their opinion.

709
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 2: So in the coming weeks there are more people who testify,

710
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: and none of this helps the trips.

711
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: So here's what's interesting.

712
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: And while I'm going to have you look at the

713
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: one photo slash drawing that you know I sent you

714
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: because eighteen ninety nine, several witnesses say that around ten

715
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: o'clock that night on June eighth, we know that people

716
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: were answering their doors and the parents, Henry and his

717
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: wife Matilda, are asking where our daughter is?

718
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: Have you seen her? Where Sarah?

719
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: But there's several witnesses who say that same time, the

720
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: brother who lives across the street with his wife Lauren,

721
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: so this is an adult son, was driving the Fan

722
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: family's distinctive canopy topped horse drawn wagon. Is it rich

723
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: It sounds like, and he was going, you know, door

724
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: to door, telling neighbors that Sarah was missing.

725
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: But they started to see some weird things. And remember

726
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: this is very distinctive.

727
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 2: They said that Lauren's sister so a Yah, so this

728
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 2: would be Sarah's half or Sarah's adoptive sister, was also

729
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 2: with him in the carriage. They said that the trips

730
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: wagon passed by them with curtains drawn later that same night,

731
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: which they thought was really unusual.

732
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, you would do that for privacy.

733
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: But it is pitch black outside and you could see

734
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: enough to see that they had drawn the curtains, and

735
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: it was a you know, when we talk about that

736
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: historical context, what alarms people? The laundry hanging out in

737
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: the middle of the rain, what is alarming? This was

738
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: alarming to people who saw the fancy carriage with the

739
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: curtain drawn.

740
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 3: Well, and that's interesting from a just you know, a

741
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: witness perspective. You know, if we were thinking about this today,

742
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 3: you know, if we saw a cargo by at night

743
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 3: and towels hung up and you know, across all the windows,

744
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 3: we'd go, that's weird. So I'm putting a fair amount

745
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 3: of stock into that detail, you know. And this is

746
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 3: where you know, I'm starting to forge ahead mentally on

747
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: this going Okay, if I'm investigator, promise and I'm now

748
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: putting two and two together. I have no blood at

749
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: at the death scene where the train ran over Sarah,

750
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: and I now have an abusive family with a witness

751
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: saying that they're doing something weird transporting this horse drawn

752
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 3: wagon with the curtains drawn going. Well, that sounds like

753
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: they're moving a body. So if Sarah killed on the property,

754
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 3: now I want to get a warrant. I want to

755
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 3: take a look and see if I can find a

756
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 3: major deposition of blood that would suggest, yes, this is

757
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 3: a homicide scene.

758
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: Well let me tell you, but I think seems like

759
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: in some ways the most definitive evidence they might have

760
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: because they have this unusual Richie Rich wagon. Someone spots

761
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: it heading toward the railroad crossing at Shawnee at eleven thirty,

762
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: thirty minutes before Sarah's body would be hit by that train,

763
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 2: and that's where the map is. If you want to

764
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: look at that map that I sent you, it actually

765
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: helps me to see this map, even though I realize

766
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: it's a little pedestrian, but to see the distance.

767
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 3: Between what you're alluding to and what's the significance of

768
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: this map is it? It really is showing you know Sarah.

769
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 3: Of course, is a distance away from her home, which

770
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 3: I believe you said was about four miles, and the

771
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: witnesses are seeing the trip's wagon at eleven thirty at night,

772
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: all the way out there by where Sarah's body was

773
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: ultimately found. So, yeah, that's suspicious.

774
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: But it's at night, So how much do we trust

775
00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: it if it's at night?

776
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 3: Trying to evaluate this witness is the details being provided

777
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: related to this very distinctive canopy covered horse drawn wagon

778
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: that sounds like it is going to be very rare.

779
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 3: Only very wealthy people would have this, and it just

780
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 3: so happens that the Trips have that type of wagon.

781
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 3: I think that that's a pretty significant detail that they

782
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: are providing, and so I put some weight on it. Sure,

783
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: it could be coincidental. Maybe you have another wealthy family

784
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: that just happened to be driving near where Sarah was

785
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: hit by the train at that time of night. But

786
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 3: there's other circumstances that start to snowball, if you will,

787
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 3: when you start thinking about everything that's now kind of

788
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 3: coalescing and drawing suspicion to the family itself.

789
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: Speaking of the family, they are called to the Corners

790
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: in quest.

791
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: They do a couple of things. Number One, they all.

792
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: Sort of downplay any of the abuse, probably saying it's

793
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 2: what everybody does around here. You have to be tough

794
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: on these girls, and blah blah blah. They were saying

795
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: that she's actually pretty happy. And there are some witnesses

796
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,959
Speaker 2: who inexplicably get on the stand and say the same thing.

797
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: What would the corner do or the corner's jury do.

798
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: How are they supposed to tell the difference between the

799
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: people who get on the stand and say she was

800
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: abused and then the people who are countering that.

801
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: How do you know who to believe?

802
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 3: Well, it's taking a look at you know, what are

803
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: the loyalties that the various witnesses have, their relationship to

804
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 3: the family, How they would be impacted if they are

805
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 3: providing statements. So you think about the farm hands. You know,

806
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: they're coming forward and saying, well, she's being abused by

807
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 3: the family. They could lose their job, if you will,

808
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: where the trip family could cut them loose by saying

809
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 3: something like that. But their willingness to say that suggests

810
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 3: to me, Okay, this is something that they're they're they're

811
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 3: putting their livelihood at risk to to tell this detail.

812
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: Why would they lie about that when they could lose

813
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 3: their job from the trip family versus maybe family friends

814
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 3: you know, who have relationships with the trips, maybe benefit

815
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: from the trip's wealth, And they go, well, yeah, if

816
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 3: they're found to be abusive to Sarah and come under

817
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 3: suspicion and her death, we lose you know, sort of

818
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: the if you want to use the term sugar daddy,

819
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if that's politically correct, but you know.

820
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: I think it makes us sound old, but that's.

821
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, you know, but that's so that's I think

822
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 3: that's part of how And that's just even just interviewing witnesses.

823
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 3: You know, you have to understand and their perspective, where

824
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: their loyalties lie, as well as you know, the specificity

825
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: of the details, you know, and this is where're trying to,

826
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 3: you know, tease out, you know, truth from lies.

827
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: If you still have the map up that page that

828
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: I sent you scroll down. You can see Sarah, and

829
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: you know, you can see Lauren the man and his wife.

830
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: But look at Henry. He's a lot older than I

831
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: thought he was, and he's maybe On the third page there's.

832
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: Two images of Henry. One appears to be an old

833
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 3: style photo and I forget if that's what they call

834
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 3: a lithograph or something like that, and then the others

835
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: like a sketch. But when I look at him, I'm

836
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 3: now evaluating, you know, his his hairline. I'm looking at

837
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 3: his beard. The beard looks light colored, like it's gray.

838
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 3: But he doesn't look like seventy. He looks more my age.

839
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: He's got the you know, the gray beard growing out.

840
00:45:59,000 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: He's sixty nine.

841
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: Oh good god, really he looks he looks great.

842
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: Because he has all of these kids out there doing

843
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: the work for it.

844
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: Probably, yeah, he said he's born. I just found his

845
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: find a grave.

846
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh wow, okay, okay.

847
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: Henry gets on the stand and he has his own theory.

848
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: And what's interesting I think about all of this is

849
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: if they leaned into just enough to say, listen, Sarah

850
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: is a sensitive girl. We probably come down on her

851
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: a lot harder than we should, but we love her.

852
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: She knows that. But she's not able to handle the

853
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: pressure of working on our farm. And I think she

854
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: just snapped.

855
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: Then to me, if they admitted not the hard abuse,

856
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: but then maybe they could say that this was you

857
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: could see how this could be a suicide but he's saying,

858
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: she's as happy as a clam, No big deal.

859
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: You know. This is where, in essence, you have competing witnesses,

860
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: you know, in terms of stances that they're taking as

861
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 3: to you know, how is the inquest going to come

862
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 3: to a conclusion about accident, suicide or death at the

863
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 3: hands of another. And this is where well what is

864
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: the physical evidence?

865
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: Well here we go some more information.

866
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: Let me tell you more information first, So Henry says, hey,

867
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 2: I have a theory of my own. My theory is

868
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,919
Speaker 2: that she was kidnapped and then disposed of, is what

869
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: he thinks. He says that there are three young men

870
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: living in the area, two brothers and another kid, and

871
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: they're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, and you know that he suggests

872
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: that that they had been cat calling Sarah and maybe

873
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: they kidnapped her and sexually assaulted her and killed or

874
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: put her on the tracks. But these kids all have alibis,

875
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: So he's just throwing these out there, so deflecting, I assume,

876
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: is that what that would be?

877
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's that's a reasonable theory as to

878
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: possible what could have happened, just like it could be

879
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 3: one of the farm hands. You know, Sarah's leaving the house.

880
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 3: I don't know where the farm hands would normally be

881
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 3: at that time of night, but you know, maybe one

882
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 3: of them took a fancy to Sarah and followed her

883
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: and grabbed her, and you know it, sexually assaulted, killed her,

884
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 3: and dumped her body on the tracks. You know this

885
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: is where it's now. Okay, what's the most likely in

886
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 3: terms of as you start investigating these various investigative pathways?

887
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 3: What pathway can you go down? The furthest on m.

888
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you what we're going to do

889
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: with an autopsy. So doctor Cleveland, you know she's been

890
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 2: buried and it's now been about five weeks.

891
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: I think.

892
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 2: Doctor Cleveland says, let's dig her back up and let's

893
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: see what we can find. He really is convinced this

894
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: is murder. So this is into the month, which is incredible.

895
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: This has been going on for a month. So he

896
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 2: has her exhumed for a full autopsy by a physician

897
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: named doctor Loomis. I guess Cleveland didn't do a full

898
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: autopsy at the time, which surprises me. In June, there

899
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: was a doctor named Willis Petite who had done a

900
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: cursory examination, though not a thorough one. And at this

901
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 2: point now Sarah had been done for five weeks. Do

902
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: you think that Cleveland didn't wasn't qualified to do the

903
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: autopsy and that's why he had these other physicians around.

904
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: Why would he not do it himself.

905
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 3: Well, he may not be a pathologist, yeah, you know,

906
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 3: because the elected corners, you know, you don't have to

907
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 3: have any type of medical qualification to become an elected corner.

908
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 3: And oftentimes and still to this day, in many parts

909
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: of the country, you know, you see people that are

910
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 3: funeral home directors become the elected corner and they have

911
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 3: to have a staff of your medical examiners or your

912
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: pathologists underneath, you know, to do the autopsies. With Cleveland,

913
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 3: I don't know what his medical qualifications are, but it

914
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: is a big miss not to do a thorough autopsy

915
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:01,240
Speaker 3: right away.

916
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 2: Well, and then I will just do a you know,

917
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: going a mea culpla here, because I have been calling

918
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: him doctor Cleveland, and I think he's a corner. I

919
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: don't think he's a doctor, going back and looking and

920
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 2: so dismiss every time I call him doctor Cleveland. Sorry,

921
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: but so anyway, it sounds like in June, he had

922
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 2: one doctor do a cursory examination of her. The sexual

923
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: assault accusation against these three teenagers has sparked the rumor

924
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 2: that maybe Sarah was pregnant. Not by one of these guys,

925
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: because they have alibis, but now everybody's got that churning

926
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: in her in their heads that maybe she was pregnant.

927
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 2: So that's another reason why Cleveland says, okay, let's bring

928
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: in a doctor. Let's do a full autopsy and find

929
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: out some things. Loomis, who is the guy who looks

930
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 2: at her body. Five weeks after she's been in the ground.

931
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 2: He and doctor Petite do an autopsy and they testify

932
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: that she had several injuries, including a skull fracture that

933
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: we're serious enough to cause her death. But you know,

934
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 2: Louis says, I don't know if one of them was

935
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: the fatal wound, which one it was. He said, I

936
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 2: don't know if these injuries happened before Sarah was hit

937
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: by the train or as she was being hit by

938
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 2: the train. But most importantly, and tell me what you

939
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 2: think about this, I think we've kind of gone over

940
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: this a little bit. Doctor Loomis said that many of

941
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: the injuries would have caused major external bleeding, and we

942
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: talked about this before. So because there was no blood

943
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 2: on the tracks, he said, I think she was already

944
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: dead beforehand. And obviously it's foul play because there's so

945
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 2: many injuries.

946
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: Kind of going back to, you know, my thought about

947
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 3: trying to determine, you know, what injuries occurred prior to

948
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 3: being run over by a train. That's that would be

949
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 3: so hard unless there's obvious you know, like stab wounds.

950
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 3: Even I was thinking about, you know, if her throat

951
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 3: had been cut, but then you could see where, you know,

952
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 3: something on the train possibly mimic that type of injury.

953
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 3: The most significant thing to me is that, you know,

954
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 3: her body is all flayed open in essence, and he's

955
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 3: drawing the conclusion she would be bleeding all over the

956
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: place if she had blood in her body at the

957
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 3: time the train ran over her. So she was dead

958
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 3: and had a bleeding injury where she basically bled out

959
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 3: at some other location.

960
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a great theory.

961
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 2: And to add to that, just to dispel rumors, doctor

962
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 2: Loomis says she wasn't pregnant. He says that there are

963
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 2: no I'll put in the word obvious signs of sexual assault,

964
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: and he said that I don't know which came first,

965
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 2: you know how the death happened, but it's clear that

966
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: she was dead before she was on the tracks. So

967
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: now this is a weird kind of dovetail of a

968
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 2: story that we have to get into. Also, all of

969
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: these statements end up colliding with a story from the

970
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: family that doesn't seem to involve Sarah, but it might.

971
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: So Lauren, the son and his wife had a baby.

972
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 2: Her name was Susan, and she died when she was

973
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 2: two months old, two years earlier, and they said shadowy circumstances.

974
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: At first, blush.

975
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: I thought shadowy circumstances for a two month old baby

976
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds when there was all sorts of

977
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 2: viral and bacteria and everything else you can think of.

978
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 2: But what happened was that Lauren said his daughter had

979
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 2: died of an accidental smothering with blankets. I'm assuming you know,

980
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff that we're told not to

981
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 2: do anymore. But for some unknown reason, her birth and

982
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 2: her death were both registered in a neighboring county, not

983
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 2: the ones that the Trips lived in, and the coroner

984
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 2: was never notified when she died, so Cleveland know about this.

985
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: Registering a child's death with a local clerk is required

986
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 2: by law in eighteen ninety nine, as well as letting

987
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: Cleveland know that this happened. So with that information, the

988
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 2: coroner says that he's in his head. He's trying to

989
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: show the jury that the Trip family had a habit

990
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: of not following protocol when it comes to reporting deaths,

991
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: which could be the same thing in Sarah's case. So

992
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 2: if the doctor's correct and Sarah was dead before you

993
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 2: know she was on the railroad tracks, then it's because

994
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: maybe the Trip family, for some unknown reason, wanted to

995
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 2: avoid alerting the local authorities, to which I said, come on,

996
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 2: you mean that they abused her and ended up murdering

997
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 2: her and they don't want to alert the authorities. I

998
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 2: think he's just saying they're sketchy to begin with, and

999
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 2: now we have another death we're dealing with.

1000
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 3: I think one of the perplexing actions to say a

1001
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 3: member of the Trip family or multiple members of the

1002
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 3: Trip family are responsible for Sarah dying. Let's say I'm

1003
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 3: the proper whether it be accidental, you know, through the

1004
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 3: abuse and they took it too far or you know,

1005
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 3: intentional homicide. How the body is disposed is poor, because

1006
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 3: it's like, well, she's going to be found. You have

1007
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 3: trains on the tracks all the time, so it's not

1008
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 3: like they're hiding her body to try to and then

1009
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 3: reporting her missing and she's just never found. The only

1010
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 3: thing I can think of is the thought that the

1011
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 3: train would do so much damage to her body that

1012
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 3: any evidence of homicide would be covered up and they

1013
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 3: would hope that this would just quickly be ruled an accident.

1014
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 3: Hopefully they get into the trip's homestead and they look

1015
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 3: for a homicide scene.

1016
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: Well no, oh, doesn't sound like it. Sorry.

1017
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 2: I mean, we can count on the corner for a

1018
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: lot of stuff, and apparently Agent Paramus for nothing. But

1019
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 2: he does not do that that I know of. There

1020
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 2: are five weeks of testimony's forty witnesses, and finally they

1021
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 2: wrap up the jurorsay murder and there are four indictments

1022
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 2: for Henry the father, Matilda the mother, Lauren the son,

1023
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: and Iva, who is the sister, so it's the four

1024
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 2: family members. This seems like the end of the case,

1025
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 2: and it technically is. It's an unsolved case. But Michelle Graff,

1026
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 2: who is the author who wrote this book, has a theory,

1027
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 2: and I want you to tell me what you think

1028
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 2: about this theory.

1029
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: She did so much digging. I have to give her

1030
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: a lot of credit for this.

1031
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: The motive is what lingers for people, I think, and

1032
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: it did for Michelle.

1033
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: So she is researching the case.

1034
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 2: She's looking into upstate newspaper archives from upstate New York.

1035
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 2: She finds a piece of reporting from nineteen hundred that

1036
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 2: jumps out. It's not very detailed, but it notes that

1037
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 2: Lauren and his wife Carrie Tripp had lost an eleven

1038
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 2: month old baby named Clarence on March second of that

1039
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: year of nineteen hundred. His cause of death is documented

1040
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 2: as measles and meningitis. So, based on his age, Clarence

1041
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:18,919
Speaker 2: would have been born in early April eighteen ninety nine.

1042
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: And you remember Sarah died June. So what, Michelle wonders.

1043
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: She confirms this with the child Clarence's birth certificate, which

1044
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 2: she manages to track down, which lists the baby as

1045
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: named Raymond, not Clarence, which is odd already to begin with.

1046
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 2: But Clarence's existence never seems to come up in any

1047
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 2: of the reporting on Sarah's case. So what Michelle Graff

1048
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: is wondering is this is something that probably should have

1049
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 2: been investigated. What if Clarence was Sarah's baby and the

1050
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: Trips didn't want the scandal. They were hoping to cover

1051
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 2: up a sexual assault within the family, which would be

1052
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: Lauren the son, so they lied on the birth certificate

1053
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: and they claim that Carrie, who was the.

1054
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,439
Speaker 1: Wife, was actually this little boy's mother.

1055
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: What she says is when residents insisted that Sarah had

1056
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 2: been pregnant, you know, did the corner seem like everybody else,

1057
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 2: that she had been pregnant when she died, so that

1058
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: rumor that went around when the autopsy proved otherwise, did

1059
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: he wrongly assume that this story had no merit? So

1060
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 2: what Michelle is saying is that rumor that went around

1061
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 2: that was kind of connected to the sexual assault potential

1062
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: sexual assault from the teenagers. Maybe that rumor was older

1063
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 2: than we think and that Sarah had been pregnant. And

1064
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 2: she's actually it sounds like pretty convinced that both of

1065
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 2: these babies might have been Sarah's because they had little tombstones,

1066
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 2: and the tombstones are very very vague about who the

1067
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 2: child belongs to. And so I think it's just a

1068
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: theory that she pops out if you're looking for motive.

1069
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 3: It would not shock me at all that this is

1070
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 3: what is going on now. Yeah, from trying to figure

1071
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 3: that out. You know, for Clarence, you mean Sarah would

1072
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 3: have taken Clarence full term. You know, do we have

1073
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 3: witness statements saying, you know, they saw Sarah during this

1074
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 3: nine month pregnancy to say, yeah, she looked like she

1075
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 3: was pregnant and with the other baby too. Now you

1076
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 3: have two adult males on this homestead. You have Henry

1077
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 3: and you have Lauren. Either one of them could be

1078
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 3: in play as having fathered the babies. And you think,

1079
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 3: if Henry is abusing Sarah, and let's say he's sexually

1080
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 3: abusing her, and she gets pregnant by Henry, who's sixty

1081
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 3: nine years old, it almost makes more sense for that

1082
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 3: baby to be passed off as Laurence because he is

1083
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 3: of the age in which him and his wife are

1084
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 3: going to be having kids. Yeah, you know, and it's

1085
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 3: sort of like dirty family secret. You know, Henry is

1086
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 3: impregnating the six toad on how old this teenage girl?

1087
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 3: And we got to cover this up. Well, we have

1088
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 3: Lauren and his wife and there of child bearing normal

1089
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 3: child bearing age for that time frame.

1090
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 2: And it's interesting one of the little stones that they

1091
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 2: put down, they put one down for Clarence the boy,

1092
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 2: and it says infant son of Lauren Tripp, who's the father.

1093
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it.

1094
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 2: Doesn't mention Carrie, the supposed biological mother, And of course

1095
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 2: it certainly doesn't mention Sarah. Two points that I wanted

1096
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 2: to remind you of. Number one, all of these workers

1097
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: who took the stand pretty much unanimously said that for

1098
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 2: the past year Sarah had been very isolated, which.

1099
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: To me means we didn't see much of her.

1100
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and that may have been to prevent people

1101
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 3: seeing that she was pregnant.

1102
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it could have been the case before. I

1103
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, with the other baby with Susan.

1104
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 3: Well, this is where you know, I go back to

1105
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 3: doctor Loomis, who did the formal autopsy, if Sarah had

1106
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 3: given birth two months prior to Clarence. I wonder if,

1107
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 3: because pathologists are able to determine if a woman has

1108
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 3: had been pregnant or has given birth in the past.

1109
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 3: And I don't know what diagnostic features they use to

1110
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 3: do that. So I'm wondering if doctor Loomis would have

1111
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 3: been able to determine that if that had been a question.

1112
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what I think Michelle's point is is

1113
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 2: she wished doctor Cleveland had followed that train a little

1114
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 2: bit what the point was, and maybe he was thinking

1115
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: it but didn't want to go there, because he really

1116
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,919
Speaker 2: did question Lauren the father a lot about the death

1117
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 2: of that little girl, the two month old Susan from

1118
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 2: two years earlier. And you know, the point was the

1119
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 2: Trips obviously are willing to break the law cover up

1120
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: a death, and we don't know how Susan died. But

1121
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: Michelle says, I think this might have gone even further

1122
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 2: than that, and they're covering up some other pretty terrible things. Sure,

1123
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 2: So you know, Michelle gets a lot of Michelle Graff

1124
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 2: gets a lot of credit for this, because really that

1125
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 2: is quite a story and to me makes the most

1126
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 2: sense out of everything, out of all of it, that

1127
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 2: makes the most.

1128
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 3: Sense depending on the state of the remains, we could

1129
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 3: answer that question today.

1130
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that too.

1131
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: I also think, Paul, tell me if you agree with this,

1132
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 2: I also think this could be a case of people

1133
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 2: know what happened, and it's passed through the family somehow.

1134
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 2: It's like the dirty secret that whoever the relatives of

1135
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: the Trips are now might have known, or there were

1136
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: notes and they're in an attic somewhere. Let me tell

1137
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 2: you a couple of other little tidbits. So you know,

1138
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 2: after this, the Trips were kind of driven out of town.

1139
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 2: They eventually had to leave. They set up somewhere else,

1140
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 2: and later Carrie, the wife, divorces Lauren. He was very abusive,

1141
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 2: is what she says. She goes back to Michigan. Now

1142
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 2: tell me if this means anything to you, So she

1143
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,439
Speaker 2: goes back to Michigan. She dies in eighteen seventy nine,

1144
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 2: so that is boy, she must have been really old.

1145
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 2: It's eighty years past all of this happening. The obituary

1146
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 2: that's printed for Carrie doesn't mention either of those two kids,

1147
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,439
Speaker 2: but it does mention the other kids that she had

1148
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 2: with Lauren, but not Clarence and not Susan.

1149
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 3: You know, there may be something to that. I think

1150
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 3: talking to children of Carrie, they may have divulged some

1151
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 3: of these family secrets in family stories over the years.

1152
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, family secrets it's a big one, and we've had

1153
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: a decent amount of those cases.

1154
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 1: But this is what I mean.

1155
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: I find this so fascinating in the eighteen hundreds. Why

1156
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: I love this century so much, because sometimes we have

1157
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 2: enough information to be able to tell what happened with

1158
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 2: cause of death. Sometimes we have really smart investigators. Sometimes

1159
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 2: we're both really surprised about what they were able to do.

1160
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 2: And I think that coroner Cleveland did a really good

1161
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 2: job here, and maybe this would have been too much

1162
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 2: to wrap his head around, but he clearly had suspicions

1163
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 2: about Lauren to begin with. It's a hard story for

1164
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 2: me because when we go back to the victim, like

1165
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 2: we always try to do, and you think about this

1166
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 2: young woman's life, which is a young woman that is

1167
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 2: alive today somewhere around where things are terrible, things are happening,

1168
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: you know, and she lives this really difficult life. She

1169
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: works NonStop, she I'm sure feels like an outcast, she's abused,

1170
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 2: and then she dies in some way so tragically. Just

1171
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 2: a bad, bad ending for someone who is a teenager

1172
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 2: who we have no idea what she could have done

1173
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 2: had she not been taken in by the wrong family.

1174
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 3: No absolutely, you know, and and you know, from my perspective,

1175
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 3: I think it's it's pretty obvious she was killed by

1176
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 3: somebody within the Trip family, and she was killed in

1177
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 3: a way in which she bled out, and that could

1178
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 3: be a cutthroat that could be massive, you know, head injury.

1179
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 3: This is where, yes, the coroner, you know, he really

1180
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 3: pursued things to determine the manner of death. But he

1181
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 3: wasn't a homicide investigator, and there's probably some things that

1182
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 3: a bona fide homicide investigator would have been able to

1183
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 3: key in on very quickly in this case if they

1184
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 3: had done things sort of in the right time frame,

1185
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 3: do the proper autopsy right away, you know, get onto

1186
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 3: that homestead and do a search.

1187
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 1: So I agree.

1188
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 2: So for the next episode, I'm hoping for two things.

1189
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 2: Photos for your sake, that'd be great us for your sake,

1190
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 2: and for both of us, good investigators who have some

1191
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: experience working whatever kind of case we're going to come

1192
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 2: across next awesome.

1193
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 3: Well, once again, thank you, and I'm looking forward to

1194
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 3: the next one.

1195
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.

1196
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 3: Sounds good.

1197
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1198
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1199
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones sources.

1200
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1201
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1202
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1203
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1204
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1205
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1206
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1207
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 2: buried Bones pod.

1208
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1209
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1210
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

1211
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My Life Solving a

1212
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 2: Marya Because Cold Cases is also available now