1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio. I 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: grew up in central Pennsylvania in a very small farming 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: town with parents who had both grown up in working 4 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: class families and had gone to college, and they were 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: like sort of the local intelligentsia. They were very cultured. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: They spent a little bit of time away from this 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: small town. My mother lived in New York for a while. 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: My father went to Europe during his army service, but 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: then they both came back to this little town and 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: just stayed there and raised me and my two younger brothers, 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: surrounded by my father's family. My father ran the local 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: funeral home. I didn't live in the funeral home, but 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: it was just up the street where my grandmother lived, 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: and his sisters lived on the same street. His brother 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: lived nearby. Just this whole clan of Bechtels, and the 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: funeral home itself was a family business. Several generations of 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: Bechtels had run it. And we lived in this little 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: town between the Allegheny Plateau and the Bald Eagle Mountain. 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: I feel like that that topography is somehow significant, like 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: it was sort of a rift between this plateau, these 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: big empty mountains where nobody lived and where they were 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: strip mining for coal all the time. And then this 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: Ridge and Valley region of Pennsylvania, which if you look 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: at maps, are these really tidy ranges of mountains that 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: move off to the east. And we were right on 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: the edge of that, right between those two features. That's 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: the extraordinary graphic memoirist Alison Bechtel. You may have heard 28 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: of Allison's memoirs fun Home and Are You My Mother, 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: as well as her recently. Really the Secret to superhuman Strength. 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Alison's story revolves around a secret that began well before 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: she was born, one that was always kept from her, 32 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: and yet in the light of retrospect, seems to always 33 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: have been hiding in plain sight. But she didn't see it. 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: Of course, she didn't see it. We never do. If 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: a secret is embedded into our childhoods, it becomes our 36 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: reality because that's how we survive. We inheritors of shame 37 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: and silence, until survival means knowing the truth rather than 38 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: living in a lie. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is 39 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, the 40 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep 41 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: from ourselves. I'm so interested in the way you described 42 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: your parents as you know, sort of the local intelligentsia. 43 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: It has sort of little echoes of revolutionary Road the 44 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: Richard Yates novel. Yeah, I've always been curious, like why 45 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: did they stay there? I myself was desperate to get 46 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: out of that place, and both my parents loved going 47 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,839 Speaker 1: to New York. They go make the four hour drive 48 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: to New York to go to the theater and museums. 49 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: So why why were they living in this place that 50 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: was really cut off from all that. I still don't know. 51 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: I don't know anything. The older I get, the less 52 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: I know, especially about my parents. But one thing was 53 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: my my father's father had a heart attack and needed 54 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: my dad to run this family business. So my father 55 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: did that. He came home from Germany where he was 56 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: in the army, where my one where my mother had 57 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: just gone to meet him and get married, and they 58 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: were very excited to start this life in Europe together 59 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: and travel around after he was done with his stint. 60 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: But instead they came home and stayed there. But they 61 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: were both just passionately interested in different kinds of art 62 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: and literature. They both loved poetry. They met in a 63 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: play my mother was a more serious actor than my father, 64 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: but they both acted in college, and my mom went 65 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: on to do an internship at the Cleveland Playhouse and 66 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: she continued to act in summer stock all through my 67 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: childhood and beyond. And my dad, although his day job 68 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: was teaching in the high school and running this funeral home, 69 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: his real passion was for antiques and for restoring our 70 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: old Victorian house. This was a really unusual house. It 71 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: seems like it became more unusual and more unusual as 72 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: your father sort of had his way with it. Yeah, 73 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: this was his real love and his life was restoring 74 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: this house. Um. It was built probably in the eighteen sixties, 75 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: a big American Gothic house that was all decrepit by 76 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: the time my parents bought it in the nineteen sixties. 77 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: Talking about the library, the library was amazing. I mean, 78 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: who has a library in their house? But we did, 79 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: like a real library with Florida ceiling, glassed in bookshelves, um, 80 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: lot lots of you know, calf bound antique books as 81 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: well as plenty of new books. Just a wall of 82 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: books that people were just struck dumb by. They would 83 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: always ask my father if you'd read all of those books. 84 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: He would always say, has read most of them. There 85 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: were velvet drapes, there was flocked wallpaper. There was another 86 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: Florida ceiling feature, this giant peer mirror. It was like 87 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: twelve ft tall. It was a very grand, beautiful Victorian library. 88 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: And your father did all this himself. This is a 89 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: passion of his. Yeah, he did. And um, it wasn't cheesy. 90 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: You know a lot of people do that sort of 91 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: thing on their own and it just looks like a 92 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: i don't know, like a bad B and B or 93 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: a Laura Ashley explosion. But now it was very tasteful. 94 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: And you know, he studied a lot, got lots of 95 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: magazines and journals, and he knew a lot about this 96 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: specific period, and he was always collecting stuff, discovering stuff, 97 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: talking to old people. And it was beautiful. How would 98 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: you characterize, from like Alison, the child's point of view, 99 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: your parents marriage during those childhood years and maybe sort 100 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: of into your teenage years. My parents fought a lot, 101 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: but I didn't, you know, I didn't really think about 102 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: their marriage. I mean, who really thinks about their parents marriage? 103 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: It's the air that you breathe. And I was surprised 104 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: later when my mother would describe to me, Oh, that 105 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: was when your father wasn't speaking to me for three months, 106 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: Like I never noticed that, but apparently it would go 107 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: for long stretches of sulking and not talking to her. 108 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: Do you think that has anything to do with, you know, 109 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: the fact that you had siblings, Like I asked that 110 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: as an only child, because I think for me, I 111 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: was a student in a way, not of my parents 112 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: marriage because that would have been sort of beyond my comprehension, 113 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: but of my parents. I really studied them because it's 114 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: kind of all I all I had, is my subject. 115 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: Whereas I wonder if you have siblings, whether you kind 116 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: of are often in sibling world in a certain way. Yeah, 117 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's true. I was just sort of 118 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: having a parallel life in the same house. I mean, 119 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: I was certainly taking them in, but I never thought 120 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: about their marriage. What was it like to live in 121 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: in the constant presence of sort of death as a fact, 122 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: you know that it just it just was that there 123 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: were corpses, there were dead people. There was this funeral home, 124 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: and there's this moment where a young man has died 125 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: and your dad calls for you and asks you to come, 126 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: and it's you know, there's this naked, hairy young man 127 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: with a chest wound lying there, and your dad asks 128 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: you to hand him a pair of scissors in a 129 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: very very matter of fact way, and then you very 130 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: very matter of fact LYE do so. Yeah, I mean 131 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: mostly the funeral home was kind of cool. I liked 132 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: seeing the dead bodies. It was interesting. I felt like 133 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: I knew something other people didn't know. My school friends 134 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: would be like, oh my god, you see dead bodies 135 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: and what's it like. I liked being able to just 136 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: play it cool, you know, and to have the sort 137 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: of hidden knowledge that other people didn't have. But it's 138 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: pretty alarming when Allison's dad shows her this young guy's body, 139 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: which has been opened up for an autopsy. Up until then, 140 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: she had only seen dead people once they were in 141 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: their caskets, all dressed up and with their makeup done. 142 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: So Allison, who's ten maybe eleven, plays it cool. It 143 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: was traumatic, but there wasn't any allowance for it to 144 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: be traumatic. So much of Allison's story has to do 145 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: with what isn't said, what can't be said. There's what 146 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: people say, like please pass the scissors, and then there's 147 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: the subtext. Everything, it seems, can be experienced and discussed, 148 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: everything except for feelings. There's a lot of exchange of 149 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: of information, of literature, of poetry, of you know, many 150 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: different things, but not feelings, not how did you feel 151 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: about that? Yeah? And I you know, only much later 152 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: did I understand that that if anyone had talked about 153 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: their feelings, the whole edifice would have just come crashing down. 154 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: When you're in high school, you end up in your 155 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: father's English class, and it seems like like sort of 156 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: that's the period of time where you're most able to 157 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: communicate with each other in a certain way, with with 158 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: the texts between you as like the bridge. Yes, my 159 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: father had always tried to guide my reading. He was 160 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: always suggesting books and trying to get me to read 161 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: things that he liked, and I would always resist that. 162 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: It was like the only way I had to rebel 163 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: as a child. But when I was in his class, 164 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: of course I had to read the books. So it 165 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: was an interesting situation, and what I found was I 166 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: really liked them. We read Um Pride and Prejudice that 167 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: semester catch her in the Rye. It was a class 168 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: on coming of age. So it was really so meta, 169 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, we started really bonding and connecting, 170 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: and you know, I was one of his better students. 171 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: He always liked his sharper students. Yeah. I mean there's 172 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: a moment in fun home where you or he says 173 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: to you, You're the only student class who is sort 174 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: of like worth teaching to or something like that, and 175 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: then and you say, your class is the only class, 176 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: you know, sort of worth taking. Yeah. Yeah, we were 177 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: a mutual admiration society. Yeah, it was. It was really 178 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: kind of a tender moment, even though what's happening is 179 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: that the literature and these coming of age stories and 180 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: the inner lives of the characters on the page are 181 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: standing in for anything that might resemble, um, you know, 182 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: a feeling. Yeah. Well, my my dad, I think, was 183 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: very eager for a friend, and the older I got, 184 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: the closer I got to him. He died when I 185 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: was nineteen, but we just were on this trajectory of 186 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: just getting closer and closer and talking more and more, 187 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: and it was great. I loved it. I loved having 188 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: that connection with him. Although later a therapist told me 189 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: that was probably inappropriate, that he was leaning on me 190 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: so heavily for connection. We'll be back in a moment 191 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: with more family secrets. Allison goes off to Oberlin College 192 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: and really begins to come into her own. What this means, 193 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: most deeply and powerfully for her is that she comes out. 194 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: She knows she's gay, and in the great surge of 195 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: energy of that realization, she wants to tell her parents immediately. 196 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: She wants to share it with them. So I wrote 197 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: them a letter, and the grand tradition of my shutdown Emily, 198 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: I shared this intimate news with them in a typewritten 199 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: letter sent through the mail like with a stamp on it. Yes. Um, 200 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: at that point I hadn't had sex as anyone yet. 201 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: I wasn't really absolutely. I mean, I felt certain that 202 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: this was true, but yeah, it was all still somewhat theoretical, 203 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: and I was just starting to tell like friends and 204 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: people close to me. So I told my parents and 205 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: been waited in some trepidation for their response. It should 206 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: be said too, because listeners under a certain age, it 207 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: will be incomprehensible. The idea of waiting two days, three days. Now, 208 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: we write an email and we hit send, and we 209 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: hold our breath, and you know we hear back five 210 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: minutes later. Um. Yeah, I was holding my breath for 211 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: three or four days. My father called me on the phone, 212 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: and I was a little taken aback that it was 213 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: just him, even though I was used to talking to 214 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: him all the time. I thought this was like an 215 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: important family piece of news I had broken, and that 216 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: maybe my mother would be in on it too. But 217 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: she wasn't and wouldn't come to the phone actually, as 218 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: I as I learned, because she was so upset, and 219 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: my dad had this sort of giddy air about him, 220 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: like he was sort of excited, like, well, it's it's 221 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: good to know that you're human at least, and it 222 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: felt almost like sort of leering or I don't know, 223 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: like he was this I don't know, something paternalistic about it. 224 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: That was annoying to me, and I didn't quite understand 225 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: why is my dad being so giddy and why is 226 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: my mother not coming to the phone. My mother and 227 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: I had another exchange of hard copy letters before we 228 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: spoke on the phone. She sent me a very confusing 229 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: letter saying she wished that I would rethink this lesbian 230 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: thing and just focus on my work. What was the 231 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: tone of the letter, like, what was the emotional tone 232 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: of it? Well, it was kind of cold and formal, 233 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: like my mother was with me. It was very articulate, 234 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: very carefully thought out, and I responded to her letter 235 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: in kind with a letter. I think I even broke 236 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: it down into like a B C, you know, into 237 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: sub paragraphs and things, rebutting all the things she was saying. 238 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: And then following that exchange, she called me, and here's 239 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: where the real information finally reached me, and she told 240 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: me in this phone conversation that my dad had had 241 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: affairs with other men over the course of their marriage, 242 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: and some boys, some of his high school students. And 243 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: I was just completely floored, just blown away. Never had 244 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: never occurred to me. Remember at the beginning, when I 245 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: talked about the secret hiding in plain sight and the 246 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: way we who have been living in the shadow of 247 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: that secret can't see what is patently obvious. Alison and 248 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: I share this two very different kinds of secrets about 249 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: our fathers. But what is striking is the way that 250 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: each of us talk to this knowledge away. I mean, 251 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: it was obvious that Alison's father was gay. In my case, 252 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: it was obvious that my father wasn't my biological father. 253 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: So many of us have that sense when we discover 254 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: the truth of wanting to smack ourselves upside the head. 255 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, my god, how could we not have known? 256 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: But that's the thing. It was too dangerous, far too 257 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: dangerous to know, so we just didn't. So you find 258 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: this out and it makes like no kind of sense 259 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: and all kinds of sense in a way. Yeah, it 260 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: immediately I just began sort of reassembling this puzzle of 261 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: my life and and it he actually he used that 262 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: metaphor too, I think, but I've always thought of it 263 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: that way. I mean, it was just so very strange 264 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: that I had stumbled onto their deep dark secret in 265 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: my you know, in my youthful naivete, just thinking, oh 266 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: this is I'm a lesbian. I'm gonna tell everyone. I'm 267 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: going to be open and above board about this. I 268 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: had no idea what what I was triggering. You saw 269 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: your father only a few times from the time that 270 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: those conversations and that letter writing campaign was happening until 271 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: he died. Yes, once he came, he stopped at my 272 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: school briefly, and I saw him, and then I came 273 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: home for spring break, it's spent a week. There was 274 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: another time I came home at the end of the 275 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: school year, very briefly and brought my girlfriend that time, Yeah, 276 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: and so he met my girlfriend and my mother met 277 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: my girlfriend, and it was all very stressful. Did you 278 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: have further conversations with him? What you know? Was there 279 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: sort of bed on that initial you know, I'm so 280 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: glad you're human kind of conversation. Some of it happened 281 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: again in this epistolary format by letters. I have these 282 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: treasured letters that my dad sent me during that time, 283 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: although they were all quite cryptic and increasingly not making 284 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. We had one conversation about it, 285 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: which was during the spring break that I was home 286 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: and he and I went out to the movies one night, 287 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: and I was determined to bring it up and to 288 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: make him talk about it. It was very one of 289 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: the most you know, frightening things I've had to do. 290 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: I tried to think of a way that I could 291 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: get in, and it was he had given me a 292 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: copy of Collects Memoirs at Christmas time, and so I 293 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: used that book and I said, did you know what 294 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: you were doing when you gave me that book? Because 295 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: of course, that there's a whole long scene in her 296 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: memoirs about her the lesbian subculture of Paris, which I 297 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: found quite riveting. And he said no, he hadn't really 298 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: thought about it, but it was it was an opening 299 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: and I had gotten in and we just had this 300 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: short conversation until we got to the movie theater. But 301 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: he opened up to me and he said, well, here's 302 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: another interesting thing. When when my mother called me on 303 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: the phone to tell me this shattering information, she explained 304 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: it that my father had been molested when he was young, 305 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: when he was fourteen, and on this night that my 306 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: dad and I were talking, he described to me this 307 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: incident with this older man on the farm where he 308 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: grew up. I don't think he used the word molested, 309 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure how he would have said it 310 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: if he described it as a as a pleasurable encounter 311 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: and described this man as quite attractive. With me, it 312 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: was a positive experience. With my mother, it was an 313 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: excuse for why he had turned out this way. But 314 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: clearly I could see how deeply ashamed my dad was 315 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: of all this. It was really painful for him to 316 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: talk about it with me, but he did at one point. 317 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: When she's home, Alison and her dad have a really 318 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: uncomfortable conversation. She pushes hard for it. She needs to 319 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: talk with him about his sexuality and hers. She broaches 320 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: the subject in a car on their way to the movies. 321 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: Moving cars are such great places for these scary conversations. 322 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: I find no one can escape. The conversation isn't exactly satisfying, 323 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: but still it's something. Then she's back at school and 324 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: she receives the worst kind of news, terrible news. Her 325 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: dad has been hit by a truck. Her dad is dead. 326 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: One of your responses, and it's it's such an incredibly 327 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: human grief responses. You know, you and your brother have 328 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: it too, Like you're laughing. Yeah, it's such an uncomfortable thing. 329 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: It's like, what do you do. You're not laughing because 330 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: it's funny. You're laughing because you're expelling something. Yeah, we didn't. 331 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you know, I don't. No, I can't 332 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: remember what I even thought I was. It was a 333 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: five hour drive away, so I got this news. I 334 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: was completely traumatized, but not you know, in my in 335 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: the in the tradition of my family. I cried for 336 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: about half a minute. Maybe maybe thirty seconds, and then 337 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: I was like fine, I I insisted on driving. My 338 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: girlfriend had a car, but I drove, and we both 339 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: drove five hours home. And I can't tell you what 340 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: I was imagining had happened at that point. I know 341 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: that that night my mother confided in me that she 342 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: was pretty sure my father had done this on purpose. 343 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: And and I don't think it that had occurred to 344 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: me until she said that. It just all seemed so crazy, 345 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: but everything had been crazy for months. Why do you 346 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: think she told you that so quickly? Um? I think 347 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: I was her only confidante. I know that her best friend, 348 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: to whom she told absolutely everything. Else I didn't know 349 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: and wouldn't know for a long time. I think she 350 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: just needed to tell someone. And when she did tell 351 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: you that, did that make sense to you? Yes? Completely? 352 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: It felt absolutely right, and I think it consoled us 353 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: both in some some strange way, because at least it 354 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: was intentional. And I try to explain this to people 355 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: and they look at me like I'm insane, but it 356 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: somehow seems different. For a death to be an accident, 357 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: that's really terrible, But if someone intended for it to happen, 358 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: then at least something went right. You know, No, that 359 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: makes sense to me. It's like, even if it's something 360 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: that might have passed, it was something that was a choice. 361 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: I mean, when we started talking, you were you were saying, 362 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: I don't remember how you put it. But you know, 363 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: the older you get, the more it's a mystery to you. 364 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: You know, the more you the more your parents are 365 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: a mystery to you. And I I do think for 366 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: those of us that keep on thinking about this stuff, 367 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: either because it's our nature or because it's our circumstances 368 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: and we have to um, there's nothing resembling closure or 369 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: being at a place where it all feels like tucked away, 370 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: even and maybe especially when we've written about it, you know, 371 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: when it's bound between the pages, I know, it keeps 372 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: evolving and you can't do anything about it. I keep 373 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: finding out bits of information that completely changed my story, 374 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait, right, it's a very strange plight, 375 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: because it really is like you're holding the world still 376 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: between the covers of a book. You know, the relationship 377 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: between the you that wrote fun Home and fun Home 378 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: that's the story. It's the relationship between the self and 379 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: the story. At the moment the story is told, We'll 380 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: be right back. Allison's book ends up being adapted for 381 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: the stage, and Fun Home becomes a musical, Yes, a 382 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: musical that wins the Tony Award in two thousand fifteen 383 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: for Best Musical, among many other accolades. I saw the 384 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: show when it first ran off Broadway, and in the 385 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: stage adaptation, there are three Allison's. An actress plays her 386 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: as a kid, another actress plays her around the age 387 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: she was when her father died, and an actress plays 388 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: the adult Allison, who stands off to the side and 389 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: watches it all unfold. To hear the three Allison's sing together, 390 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: their voices creating a tapestry of harmony, is to witness 391 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: a dramatic depiction of wholeness. I've got to admit there's 392 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: been part of me that feels almost you know, guilty 393 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: or bad, pulling you back into that time. And you know, 394 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: and that material because it lives on in the pages 395 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: of your fantastic book, and so it's always finding new readers, 396 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: and it's always sort of newly alive for people. You know, 397 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: new people are finding it newly alive, and for you, 398 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: it's something that is, you know, sort of very much 399 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: by both in the past and not. I guess yeah. 400 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 1: It has been a bit weird having this part of 401 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: my life keep sort of bringing itself to the surface 402 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: over and over again. But that's fine. I can handle it. 403 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: There's a phrase Alison uses con substantial paternity that I 404 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: actually had to go look up. Consubstantial is defined as 405 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: of the same substance or essence. We can be genetically 406 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: linked consubstantial, but there is another kind of link as well, 407 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: which is a spirit rual length. In a beautiful moment, 408 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: Alison's father and she are discussing James Joyce's ulysses since 409 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing they did together, and 410 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: Allison's dad says, is it so unusual for the two 411 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: things to coincide? I did find myself thinking, and I 412 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: suppose it was because of my own story and my 413 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: own experience. But the idea of having deep and profound 414 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: spiritual connections which can or cannot be part of having 415 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: a consubstantial or genetic connection. And there's this part of 416 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: your book where you're trying on your father's clothes as 417 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: as a kid, right, and he's trying on women's clothes 418 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: at the same time, or is it's kind of there's 419 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: a lot about again in that sort of hiding in 420 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: plain sight kind of way, all of it. She would 421 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: buy my mother's clothes or her and he confided in 422 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: me that during that one conversation we had that he 423 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: dressed in girls clothes as a kid when he got 424 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: a chance. There's this other sentence, which is sexual shame 425 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: is its own kind of death. And I would love 426 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: for you to talk about that a little because I 427 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: think the silencing of the deepest parts of ourselves, either 428 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: because we live in a way and in a place 429 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: where it feels like it's out of the question or 430 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: it will be too mortifying, is so much at the 431 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: basis of so many of the kinds of secrets that 432 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: people keep. Yeah, that's the real tragedy of my father's 433 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: that I feel like, with only a little bit of 434 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: time or a little bit of help, or a little 435 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: bit of being born slightly later or having some slightly 436 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: different experiences, he might have been able to do that, 437 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: you know, to confront that. But he just wasn't. He 438 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: just couldn't do it. And when I talk about sexual 439 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: shame being a kind of death, I think precisely because 440 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: our sexuality is, you know, it's it's your literally the 441 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: core of your vitality. It's what keeps us all reproducing. 442 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: So to have that stop it up in some way, 443 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, I just think of my dad living this 444 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: sort of half life in this little conservative farm town, 445 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: or a double life, half or double I don't know. 446 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: At some point after his death, you come across some photos, 447 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: and among them is a photo of Roy, the babysitter 448 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: who babys that for you and your brothers in the 449 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: summer of sixty nine. And there was a trip that 450 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: your father took you on and Roy was the babysitter, 451 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: and it's clear that they were involved with each other. 452 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: And there's this very handsome picture of Roy mixed in 453 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: with these other family those and he had your father 454 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: had blotted out or inked out the date on the 455 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: Roy photo, but he had left it in. These are 456 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: the mysteries that were left with right, like why why 457 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: did he leave the photograph in with the rest of 458 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: the photographs but block out the date? Honestly, Danny, I 459 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: was like, that's weird. I don't know. I didn't go 460 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: any further with it. I mean, it was literally in 461 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: an envelope with all the other pictures with the same 462 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: date stamp on them, And so if he really had 463 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: been concerned, you would have destroyed the freaking photograph, you know. 464 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: But I think it was I think I felt like 465 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: it was his way of saying, look, there's nothing wrong. 466 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: That's why I have this picture right here, because it 467 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: was perfectly open and above board. Yeah, I mean, like what, 468 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: you know, what what we're left with in the end, 469 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: Like you write, what's lost in translation is the complexity 470 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: of loss itself. Right, That's one of my favorite lines, 471 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: because what do you do with that? You can't you 472 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: don't know, you can't know, You're not going to know, 473 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: And it just kind of stands as an artifact of 474 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: that time and of your dad. Yeah. This was a 475 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: year after my dad died when I found it, And 476 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: I suddenly knew when I found that picture that I 477 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: wanted to tell this story, that it was just too 478 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: good of a story. I felt guilty about having that feeling, too, 479 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: but it all kind of came to me in a 480 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: kind burst in that little photograph. Everything was there. You know, 481 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: Allison grew up on an artist's colony of sorts. Her 482 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: dad is in the library exploring his profound connection to literature. 483 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: Her mom has her work in the theater, and then 484 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: all the kids are each doing their own artistic thing 485 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: in their own rooms in this rambling house. It wasn't 486 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: the artistic life Allison's parents had dreamt of or anticipated. 487 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: They returned to central Pennsylvania because Allison's dad's dad had 488 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: had a heart attack. These things happen, plans get derailed 489 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: or dreams deferred. But perhaps Alison's parents found it easier 490 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: to stay in her dad's hometown, for him to work 491 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: as a high school teacher as well as in the 492 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: family business, for them to be the local intelligentsia. What 493 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: would have happened if they had moved to Greenwich Village? 494 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: Would their marriage have survived, would they have stayed together? 495 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: I feel like the message I got from both my 496 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: parents was don't have children, and I didn't you know. 497 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: I took that very seriously. It was like children had 498 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: put an end to both of their artistic hopes. Um, 499 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: but I think that was part of the cover. Children 500 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily what gets in the way of an artistic 501 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: or creative life is dishonesty with oneself. That gets in 502 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: the way of, you know, being able to express that life. Yeah, 503 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: and they had a compact that they were not going 504 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: to confront the truth of their situation. And then I 505 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: came along and you know, threw it down on the 506 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: floor like a gauntlet. I feel like there was something 507 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: about that life that served their purposes that kept them 508 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: from having to really face the real I don't know. 509 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the truth is they shouldn't have been married 510 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: to one another, But where does that leave me? Family 511 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: Secrets is a production of I Heart Media. Dylan Fagin 512 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: and Bethman Mcaluso are the executive producers. Andrew Howard is 513 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: our audio editor. If you have a secret you'd like 514 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: to share, leave us a boy smell and your story 515 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: could appear on an upcoming bonus episode. Our number is 516 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: one secret zero. That's secret and then the number zero. 517 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 518 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: Facebook at facebook dot com slash Family Secrets Pod, and 519 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: Twitter at Fami Secret Spot. And if you want to 520 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: know about my family secret that inspired this podcast, check 521 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: out my New York Times best selling memoir Inheritance. For 522 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 523 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 524 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: favorite shows,