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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Tod

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be a little bit different of an

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Speaker 1: episode than what we usually do because things aren't normal,

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Speaker 1: and I don't feel normal, and you probably don't feel

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Speaker 1: normal either, if you're anything like me. A combination of

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Speaker 1: never ending, depressing news I r L events and connections

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Speaker 1: being replaced with more time sitting in front of a computer,

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Speaker 1: and the overall creeping feeling of mounting instability has left

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Speaker 1: to you feeling drained, exhausted, distracted, unmotivated, and burnt out.

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Speaker 1: In her viral buzz feed essay called how Millennials Became

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Speaker 1: the Burnout Generation, and Helen Peterson writes, if exhaustion means

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Speaker 1: going to the point where you can't go any further,

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Speaker 1: burnout means reaching that point and pushing yourself to keep going,

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Speaker 1: whether for days, weeks, or years. Burnout isn't just one thing,

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Speaker 1: it's everything. For weeks, I've had a list of things

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Speaker 1: to do that I just can't seem to get done.

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Speaker 1: They roll over to the next week and I tell

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Speaker 1: myself will do them then, but I don't. I've had

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Speaker 1: a package in the corner of my room that I've

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Speaker 1: meant to return for months. My personal email inboxes where

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Speaker 1: correspondence goes to die. I let emails go unreplied and

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Speaker 1: then feel awkward about how long it's been since I've replied,

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Speaker 1: so they just go unanswered. While I'm working on this

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Speaker 1: very episode, there's a chime an email added to my

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Speaker 1: seemingly unending inbox. A work Slack message knocks for attention.

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Speaker 1: In the background, a group text notification from friends wanted

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Speaker 1: to confirm a Zoom party for this weekend. I'm already

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Speaker 1: feeling out of sorts, so I check Instagram to see

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Speaker 1: if anyone left a nice comment on a picture that

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Speaker 1: I posted of myself appearing to look very centered and

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Speaker 1: chill that was ultimately posted to make myself feel better

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Speaker 1: about my life in the first place, and all of

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Speaker 1: it ends up feeling like a lot of distractions. At night,

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Speaker 1: instead of going to sleep, I doom scroll socially media

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Speaker 1: until I pass out. I did to wake up and

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Speaker 1: start the whole thing over in the morning. Is this

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Speaker 1: what my life was meant to be? Like? Everything from

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Speaker 1: work obligations to leisure activities, feeling like a task vying

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Speaker 1: for my attention that I'll never get done. How did

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Speaker 1: we get here? And Helen Peterson writes, burnout and the

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Speaker 1: behaviors in weight that accompany it aren't, in fact something

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Speaker 1: we can here by going on vacation. It's not limited

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Speaker 1: to workers in acutely high stress environments. And it's not

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Speaker 1: a temporary affliction. It's the millennial condition. It's our base temperature,

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Speaker 1: it's our background music, it's the way things are, it's

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Speaker 1: our lives. And that realization recast my recent struggles. Why

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Speaker 1: can't I get this mundane stuff done because I'm burnt out?

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Speaker 1: Why am I burnt out? Because I've internalized the idea

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Speaker 1: that I should be working all the time. Why have

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Speaker 1: I internalized that idea because everything and everyone in my

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Speaker 1: life reinforced it explicitly and implicitly since I was young.

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Speaker 1: Her essay about more Aennials and burnout was so impactful

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Speaker 1: she turns it into a new book called Can't Even

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Speaker 1: How Millennials Became the Burnout Generation. In it, she describes

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Speaker 1: that familiar and exhausting feeling of what she calls aaron paralysis,

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Speaker 1: being so overwhelmed that you're not able to get any

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Speaker 1: of these tasks in life done, so you're left feeling

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Speaker 1: perpetually stuck. But our generation was supposed to have it

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Speaker 1: easier than our parents did, and technology was supposed to

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Speaker 1: make our lives better and more fulfilled, not worse. So

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Speaker 1: why are so many of us burnt out? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: I am Anne Helen Peterson, and I write culture study

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Speaker 1: for sub Stack. So one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 1: was so excited to speak to you today is because

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Speaker 1: I just really have not been like in a good place.

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Speaker 1: I guess I've been feeling stuck. I've had a hundred

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Speaker 1: kind of work things to do, online emails to apply to,

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Speaker 1: these kind of social obligations on zoom that somehow leave

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Speaker 1: me feeling like more drained. And when I started, and

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Speaker 1: the main thing is like nothing was getting done. You know,

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Speaker 1: I would write these to do lists and like they

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Speaker 1: would just carry over, you know, day by day. And

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Speaker 1: when I read your the excerpt of your book and Wired,

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Speaker 1: which will put on the show notes, it really just

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Speaker 1: struck me. You know, you start with this rundown of

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Speaker 1: your digital diet, and it was this very familiar and

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Speaker 1: also exhausting mad of you know, little task where you

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Speaker 1: feel like you're kind of never working but at the

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Speaker 1: same time always working. And so I guess my question

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Speaker 1: for you is, I know that when you first started

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Speaker 1: writing your BuzzFeed piece that later became the book Can't Even,

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Speaker 1: it was a kind of a way for you to

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Speaker 1: grapple with your own, uh, you know, your own issues

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Speaker 1: around burnout and feelings sort of burnt out all the time.

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Speaker 1: What did that feel like for you? What did that

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Speaker 1: look like for you? You know, a lot like what

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Speaker 1: you just described. I mean, we weren't in the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: so like I felt like social interactions weren't nourishing. They

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Speaker 1: just felt like another thing on my to do list.

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Speaker 1: And I felt like that to do list was never ending.

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Speaker 1: Like there were the things that just gave me so

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Speaker 1: much shame because they kept recycling like one week after another.

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Speaker 1: That like owners task that really isn't probably that hard,

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Speaker 1: but like just felt like insurmountable um. But then also

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Speaker 1: just like little things like the piddally stuff of life

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Speaker 1: that just kept always being there. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, that is the best description of how burnout feels,

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Speaker 1: is that everything becomes like a task. To complete instead

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Speaker 1: of you know, your life to live like there's no

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Speaker 1: highs and no lows and that's why, you know, there

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Speaker 1: are lots of intersections with like depression and burnout and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But I think that it burnout

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Speaker 1: feels to me at least different insomuch as it is

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Speaker 1: so related to your attitude towards work. What are the

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Speaker 1: attitudes about work that you dig into? Is this idea

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Speaker 1: that our jobs have to be both the filling and

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Speaker 1: also quote good jobs, you know, the kind of jobs

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Speaker 1: that your parents would be excited to brag about you having.

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Speaker 1: And you say that social media has really had a

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Speaker 1: hand in building up these fantasy jobs that we should

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Speaker 1: be striving to that are simultaneously both really cool and

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Speaker 1: good jobs. Yeah, I think that younger people have internalized

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Speaker 1: this idea that like, job should be cool right in

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Speaker 1: some capacity, that whatever your job is, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: passionate job or a job that is like you know

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Speaker 1: on the outside, you're like, oh, I'm just like making

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Speaker 1: deals and like having cool drinks after work. I don't

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Speaker 1: know like people have. It's hard to describe a cool job,

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Speaker 1: you know when you see it, and the way that

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Speaker 1: a job becomes cool is oftentimes through our mediation of

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Speaker 1: it through social media. Right, So that's like everything from

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Speaker 1: taking pictures of your equally cool job mates, like in

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Speaker 1: your cool office space too. You know, even just like

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Speaker 1: taking a picture that describes like how meaningful and rewarding

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Speaker 1: and fulfilling your work is. Are always representing our jobs

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Speaker 1: as I think, far more fulfilling and cool than they

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Speaker 1: actually are. God, that really resonates with me. Something that

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Speaker 1: you read about your piece and I didn't even I

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Speaker 1: did not even really notice I was doing it until

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Speaker 1: I read your piece was the way that so not

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Speaker 1: only do we have to have our jobs look cool

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Speaker 1: on social media, but we also have to sort of

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Speaker 1: be constantly using social media to brand ourselves in a

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Speaker 1: kind of way. And so even if you are not working,

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Speaker 1: what you're posting on social media, you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: a journalist, you want to show you want to use

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Speaker 1: Twitter to show that you're with it, that you're smart,

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Speaker 1: that you're reading good things, and that you're influencing others

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Speaker 1: to read good things and have good takes. But that

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Speaker 1: is actually work, and so it sort of creates this

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Speaker 1: weird thing where your leisure time and your work time

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Speaker 1: are kind of blended because you have to be branding

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Speaker 1: yourself even though that's not work that you're necessarily being

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Speaker 1: paid for it. Kind of we've kind of just blurred

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Speaker 1: these lines of what isn't isn't work, and that we're

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Speaker 1: always sort of working and it's sucking, exhausting. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: the way I think of it is that like work,

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Speaker 1: the contemporary like feeling of work, like it just seeps

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Speaker 1: into every corner of your life. And when we don't

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Speaker 1: have very good boundaries about like the space between work

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Speaker 1: and non work, that makes it easier for it to

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Speaker 1: slip into like, Oh, I just woke up in the morning,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna roll over and open up my phone and

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Speaker 1: check my email right now at six am, right or

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Speaker 1: I'm like feeding my kids and I'm just gonna like

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Speaker 1: casually scroll through my Slack messages. It just slips into

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Speaker 1: all of those places. And of course the pandemic has

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Speaker 1: has made that slipperiness even you know more so, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how how do you think the pandemic has really made

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Speaker 1: this worse? I know, I was reading a piece earlier

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Speaker 1: that said that the time that we have saved by

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Speaker 1: commuting by people who you know, work at home. Now

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Speaker 1: we've just filled that with more work. We haven't filled

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Speaker 1: that with leisure time or rest or something else. We've

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Speaker 1: just lose that time. However much that time it would

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Speaker 1: have been that we would be commuting to an office.

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Speaker 1: That's just more work time now. Yes, absolutely, Like everyone

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Speaker 1: I know who who has recuperated a commute time by

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Speaker 1: having to be at home, they they are not like

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Speaker 1: using it to Oh I'm just like having some quiet

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Speaker 1: reading time, or I'm meditating, or I'm trying to be

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Speaker 1: really present with my kids, you know, any of those

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Speaker 1: things that like our best selves would want to devote

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Speaker 1: that time too. Instead we're just pushing more work into it.

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Speaker 1: And this certainly happened to me when I moved to

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Speaker 1: Montana in two seventeen. Um. You know, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have so much more time to be outside

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Speaker 1: beautiful Montana, Like it's going to be amazing. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to be on the train all the time, like

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Speaker 1: work from home going to be great. And instead I

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Speaker 1: just worked more than I had worked in in years.

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Speaker 1: So being in beautiful, big s Guy Montana didn't make

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Speaker 1: you feel less bred doubt, I mean in some ways, right,

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Speaker 1: like I for me, one of the hard thing, so

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Speaker 1: like daily hard things about living in the city was

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Speaker 1: that like just from the way that I grew up.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in rural Idaho, Like being out of

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Speaker 1: the city and in outdoor spaces is like very nourishing

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Speaker 1: and replenishing to me, and it was so hard to

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Speaker 1: find that. Like I mean, I love the parks in

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Speaker 1: New York. They're great. I love parks just in general, fantastic.

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Speaker 1: They are not the same as like being in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere and um, and it was just you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a car. It was just so hard

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Speaker 1: to to get into those spaces from New York. So

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Speaker 1: I did have that like available you know to me

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Speaker 1: in Montana on a daily basis and especially on the weekends.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, like I think the pictures

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Speaker 1: that I was taking on social media of like all

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Speaker 1: of this beauty, we're a way of trying to tell

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Speaker 1: myself a story of how much more balanced my life was,

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Speaker 1: Like you're telling the world, but you're also telling yourself

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Speaker 1: a story with your social media when in truth, like

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Speaker 1: I was just um, I was just working all the time,

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Speaker 1: is traveling constantly for for my job, and also for

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Speaker 1: like go speak at colleges and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And oftentimes I think people who do travel a ton,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to frame that traveling it is like glamorous life. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like here I am in the in first class, and

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Speaker 1: you're like the only reason you're in first classes because

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Speaker 1: you travel so much that you get upgraded, and like

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Speaker 1: the only difference in first classes that like your legs

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Speaker 1: don't hurt by the end of the flight. Um, but again,

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Speaker 1: you tell yourself a story in order to like not

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Speaker 1: feel like crap about what the daily existence of your

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Speaker 1: life is. Like, let's take a quick rate and we're back,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you say, um. Part of the problem is

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Speaker 1: that these digital technologies, from cell phones to Apple watches,

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Speaker 1: from Instagram to slack, encourage our worst habits. They stign

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Speaker 1: me are best lap ds for self preservation. They ransack

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Speaker 1: our free time. They make it increasingly impossible to do

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Speaker 1: things that actually ground us. They turn our run in

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Speaker 1: the woods into an opportunity for self self optimization. They're

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Speaker 1: the neediest and most selfish entity in every interaction I

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Speaker 1: have with others. They can compel us to frame experiences

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Speaker 1: as we are experiencing them with future captions and to

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Speaker 1: conceive of travel as worthwhild only when documented for public consumption,

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Speaker 1: And my god, that really, I mean it's true. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I feel like I cannot have an experience if it

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Speaker 1: is not filtered through social media, and that this sounds

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Speaker 1: really fucked up, but that at times it's almost as

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Speaker 1: if if it's not on social media, did it even

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Speaker 1: really happen? Like if I have a lovely experience in

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Speaker 1: the woods, or a lovely experience while camping or hiking,

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Speaker 1: and I'm the only person who knows that it happened,

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Speaker 1: did it even really happen? Yeah, absolutely right, And of

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Speaker 1: course it happened, because what actually matters is how it

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Speaker 1: made you feel. But I think we've gotten so distance

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Speaker 1: from that, Like the only way to know how it

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Speaker 1: made us feel is how we're able to present it.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like, oh, I didn't get any good

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Speaker 1: photos of that, You know, that's such a like it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter, right, What actually matters is the time that

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Speaker 1: you spelt with other people, at the time you spent

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Speaker 1: by yourself in like a beautiful space. But somehow for

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Speaker 1: it to seem important, to seem like it was worth

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Speaker 1: our time not working, we have to make frame it

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Speaker 1: in a certain way for public consumption. Right. And another

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Speaker 1: thing that you write about that I I really like

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Speaker 1: is the way that we've kind of our hobbies now

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Speaker 1: need to be framed through that kind of framework. Like

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Speaker 1: you write about how you know, when you started gardening

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Speaker 1: as a hobby, if you could, if you couldn't make

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Speaker 1: your garden look nice enough quote unquote nice enough. For

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Speaker 1: social media, it's a little it feels like you didn't

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Speaker 1: really do it. And you know, I'm a podcaster. I

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Speaker 1: mostly do it because that's a medium that I love,

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Speaker 1: but I feel this pressure just sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: be using the podcast too, or you saying the medium

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Speaker 1: just sort of like pitch myself as a product instead

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Speaker 1: of just like exploring a medium that I love. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've gotten to a place where even

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Speaker 1: the things that we're meant to be doing for leisure

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Speaker 1: are kind of viewed through this lens of either a

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Speaker 1: having them be some sort of side hustle, because you

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Speaker 1: can't just you know, do something to do, but it

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Speaker 1: has to be a business entity or be that we're

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Speaker 1: doing it only to be consumed consumed by others on

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Speaker 1: social media. And it really it kind of robs us

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Speaker 1: of this opportunity for actual reflective leisure time. Yeah, totally

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Speaker 1: for I think for reflective leisure time, which you know,

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Speaker 1: I oftentimes there's like different kinds of leisure and everyone

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Speaker 1: has to know what it is nourishing for them, and

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Speaker 1: some of us like we've forgotten, right, Like we've spent

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Speaker 1: so much time mediating it that you're like, what do

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Speaker 1: I actually like? Right? Like, if you if you're only

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Speaker 1: doing it for yourself, what what do you want to do?

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Speaker 1: And that's that's hard to recover, think um, and then

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Speaker 1: it also it robs you of you know, reflection just

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Speaker 1: in terms of like change. You know, I thought a

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Speaker 1: lot about some of the frustration that people have about

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Speaker 1: what to post about Black lives matter? Right, Like do

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Speaker 1: I like, okay, so the black the black square is wrong?

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Speaker 1: But what should I post? Is this being too much?

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Speaker 1: Is this not being enough? Like if if I'm a

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Speaker 1: black person, do people look to me to like figure

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Speaker 1: out what I'm posting? And are they like weird it

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Speaker 1: out if I'm not posting. There's just so much compulsion

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Speaker 1: instead of people actually trying to figure out what would

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Speaker 1: it actually look like to be an ally right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's funny that you mentioned this. I felt so much

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say anxiety. I felt so much something.

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Speaker 1: Let's just use the word tention, even though that doesn't

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Speaker 1: even feel like the right word in the moment that

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Speaker 1: we had around Black Lives Matter and racial reckoning, a

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Speaker 1: with people asking me like, oh, I posted this, do

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Speaker 1: you think it's right? And then be the feeling of

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Speaker 1: being sort of like like looked too for you know,

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Speaker 1: a model of what people should or shouldn't be posting.

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Speaker 1: I've got so much sort of tension and anxiety around

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Speaker 1: that that opening opening Instagram or opening my social media

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Speaker 1: just it added this, you know, for an already fraught

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Speaker 1: moment for me as a black woman. It added this

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Speaker 1: this extra level of just tension and and anxiety that

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Speaker 1: I really couldn't navigate to the point where I was

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Speaker 1: just like, I'm not going to engage with this online

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Speaker 1: Like I will, I will use the platforms that I

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable using. But I can't. I can't. This is

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Speaker 1: I can't show up like this online. It's just too draining. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: like you're trying to deal with like what's actually happening

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Speaker 1: in the world, and then you have to drain deal

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Speaker 1: with like the secondary annoyances, Like even if you're not

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Speaker 1: intending to like sign on and be annoyed, Like there's

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Speaker 1: just things that people are going to be doing that

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Speaker 1: are like going to be, like you said, tension, and

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Speaker 1: like it's going to create this tension that you don't

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Speaker 1: actually need. Did you feel like not signing did you

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Speaker 1: feel like you were missing something? Or did it feel good?

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Speaker 1: That's a great question. It felt good only when I

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Speaker 1: told myself that I wasn't going to care what people

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Speaker 1: thought on social media, Like I knew what I was doing,

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Speaker 1: Like I in my day job, I work for a

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Speaker 1: feminist organization that was very much involved in, you know

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Speaker 1: a lot of the movement for Black Lives stuff, So

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Speaker 1: I know, I know that I was like doing the

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Speaker 1: work there. I know that I was showing up at

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Speaker 1: protests and like helping where I could. Um. I also

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Speaker 1: going out physically in protest for protest was a little

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Speaker 1: bit tough for me because I'm amunal compromise and so

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Speaker 1: that was the whole thing. And so once I told myself,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know in my real life where I

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Speaker 1: stand and what I'm doing, and if anybody thinks anything

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Speaker 1: good or bad about what I have or have not

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Speaker 1: posted on social media. That is their problem. Reminding myself

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Speaker 1: of that constantly and constantly and constantly, like that was

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Speaker 1: the only way that I could show up in a

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Speaker 1: way that felt not shitty. Yeah, well, and that's the thing,

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Speaker 1: right like you were figuring it out, like you're actually

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Speaker 1: figuring it out for yourself instead of figuring it out

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Speaker 1: like visa VI your reactions to other people's social media accounts.

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Speaker 1: Right like that to me is really difficult for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people to write out. They're so out of

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Speaker 1: practice at like authentically figuring out their stance and how

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Speaker 1: they want to position themselves. Does that make sense? It

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Speaker 1: makes so much sense. And I think, like like you

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Speaker 1: said right now, because of the pandemic and because of

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Speaker 1: the difficulty that some people have who would want to

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Speaker 1: show up in person for for a march or demonstration

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Speaker 1: or something like and then they just physically cannot um

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Speaker 1: that a lot of those messages get mixed, and so

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Speaker 1: you feel a compulsion like I need to somehow signal

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Speaker 1: that I want to be there, and so how do

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Speaker 1: you signal it without overly signaling it? So I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think like being especially like people who are how

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Speaker 1: do I put this? Um, I think spending some time

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Speaker 1: with yourself to actually figure out, you know, do how

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Speaker 1: do I perform in a way that actually expresses my

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Speaker 1: allyhood instead of or like my devotion to this cause,

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Speaker 1: instead of thinking about how do I signal my devotion

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Speaker 1: to this cause? Does that make sense? Definitely? Yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I mean you you put that so well. I was

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Speaker 1: just I was just reading the part of your essay

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Speaker 1: that's about slack and how so much of slack is

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Speaker 1: like signaling that we are working and not actually doing

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Speaker 1: the work. So it's like, oh, I'm thumbs that thing

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Speaker 1: my coworkers comment, or I'm dropping in a link. Social

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Speaker 1: media has and all of these different technologies have given

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Speaker 1: us ways to signal that we care about the cause,

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Speaker 1: or signal that we're paying attention and checked in without

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Speaker 1: actually be like doing the thing. Yeah, exactly, Well, and

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Speaker 1: that's it. Just if you take up all this time

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Speaker 1: signaling instead of actually doing like that, it evacuates They're like,

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Speaker 1: it evacuates your actions of any sort of intent or power.

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Speaker 1: I think, and so whether that's slack, like you don't

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Speaker 1: have time to work because you're so busy trying to

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Speaker 1: show that you're working on slack. I cannot tell you

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Speaker 1: how great it is not to be on slack, Like

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Speaker 1: obviously I missed like chatting with my coworkers. But when

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Speaker 1: I left BuzzFeed in August, like suddenly there wasn't that

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Speaker 1: thing that made me feel like, oh, I guess I

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Speaker 1: should like I haven't said anything for like half an hour.

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Speaker 1: I guess I should like say something. It's just compulsory,

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Speaker 1: and that is I think what's oftentimes frustrating is that like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I was working, I didn't need to do with thumbs

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Speaker 1: up like he said yeah. And I think as as

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Speaker 1: like creative professionals, it can be so fraught because you know,

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Speaker 1: nobody just sits down in front of the computer and

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Speaker 1: like a perfect draft spills out of you and you

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Speaker 1: know in twenty minutes or something. But I do feel

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Speaker 1: like the time that you spend thinking and sitting in

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Speaker 1: one of your computer and like I dating or whatever,

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Speaker 1: that's all part of it. But it can feel kind

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Speaker 1: of fraud. It gives me this like anxiety where it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have to like overperformed to show that I worked,

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Speaker 1: that I was actually working that and not to scooping off,

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Speaker 1: and it is kind of a part of me, like

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Speaker 1: telling myself that I'm not cooping off, even though somewhere

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Speaker 1: deep down I know it. It's like this constant thing

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Speaker 1: that's such an added distraction from just getting my fucking

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Speaker 1: work done well. And I think we oftentimes told ourselves

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Speaker 1: stories about work has to look like a certain sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, right like instead of work can also look

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Speaker 1: like staring into space, where it can look like taking

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Speaker 1: a walk. Work can work like not working, um, and

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Speaker 1: that has been really hard to especially those of us

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Speaker 1: who work in creative fields. It's really hard to understand

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Speaker 1: because to us, work is you are sitting in front

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Speaker 1: of the computer and you are doing something on that

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Speaker 1: computer screen, and it doesn't have to be that way.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little bit about how

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Speaker 1: did we get to this place? You know, when I

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Speaker 1: ready your piece, it really resonated with me. And I

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Speaker 1: think the fact that your your buzz v piece went

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Speaker 1: meta viral shows that we're not alone in having these

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Speaker 1: tasks that pile up, feeling this this er in paralysis

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Speaker 1: when you can't get anything done. How did we how

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Speaker 1: did millennials get to this place where we're all so

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Speaker 1: burned out. Well, I think the way that I try

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Speaker 1: to position in the book is so much of it

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Speaker 1: has to do with instability, with procarity, and so that's

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Speaker 1: what bonds people who are you know, working three different

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Speaker 1: gig jobs right now, and people who are intensively middle

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Speaker 1: class but are super over indebted both in terms of

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Speaker 1: student debt and consumer debt and still really struggling to

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Speaker 1: figure out like how am I going to cover rent

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Speaker 1: next month? Or how am I going to find childcare

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Speaker 1: next month? And the difference, of course, is that middle

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Speaker 1: class people can oftentimes throw money at a problem and

431
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: do have some some sort of a safety net either

432
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: in terms of family bonds, like they can you know,

433
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: you can always move back into that basement, and not

434
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: everyone has that. But still, what we're trying to do

435
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 1: is keep trading water, and so the energy required to

436
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: keep trading water. Oftentimes that means like feeling like you

437
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 1: have to work all the time. That means taking your

438
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: leisure time and optimizing it or monetizing it in some way,

439
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: And that also means throwing a lot of time at

440
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: parenting because you're trying to reproduce your own semblance of

441
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: stability for the next generation. Yeah, it's funny. I know

442
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 1: that you've written about the ways that parenting has a

443
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: lot to do with millennial burn out. And something I

444
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 1: found so interesting is how this cuts across raith and

445
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 1: class lives. It just looks differently for different people depending

446
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: on their background and situations. I know, for me, you know,

447
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: we grew up pretty comfortably, but my mom was the

448
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: first person in her family to go to college. We

449
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: grew up in a black, Southern family, and for them,

450
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: they were like, you know, we want our kids to

451
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: not you know, quote unquote become statistics. And the way

452
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: to get the way to achieve that is through college

453
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: and a stable job. And so the same way the

454
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: upper middle class white parent who is interested in their

455
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: kid going to an ivy league college, it's sort of

456
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: the same, even though the cultural and racial, you know,

457
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: reasonings for getting there are different, it's sort of the

458
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: same thing. Where this parenting then sets kids up for

459
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: this idea that like the most important thing is getting

460
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: a stable job, going to college, that pathway, and it

461
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: really can lead to kids being raised almost as little adults. Yeah, totally,

462
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: And a lot of that is motivated and I try

463
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: to do this a bit in the book. It's it

464
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: is as you said, like it's motivated by not wanting

465
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: your kids to take a step back from where you've gone. Right,

466
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: And our parents generation, uh, you know, a lot of

467
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: them had reached that that middle class stability, some semblance

468
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: of that middle class stability, sometimes for the first time

469
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: in their family's history. And sometimes that was through going

470
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 1: to college and getting a job after that, and sometimes

471
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: it was through like getting a good union job and

472
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: having stability that way. And so the goal is, Okay, well,

473
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: I don't want my kids to fall back from where

474
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: I've come, and so you try to imprint all of

475
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: these strategies for success instability and and you know sometimes

476
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: too and this I found this in my interviews, like

477
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: sometimes people's parents didn't give a ship right, like they

478
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: were like, whatever, you'll figure it out, But the kids

479
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: themselves really picked up through osmosis, you know, from their kids,

480
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: their peers, from their peers, parents, from their teachers, that

481
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: that was the only way that they had to turn

482
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: themselves into a walking resume, even if their parents didn't care. Yeah,

483
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that this is it's like reinforced but

484
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: explicitly and implicitly like we're just told that this is

485
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: how you're meant to live life, like you're meant to

486
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: your meant your job is meant to be your everything.

487
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: Your identity should be this job, and you should be

488
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: working seven. When you're not working, you should be feeling

489
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: guilty about not working or you know, turn whatever. You know,

490
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: if you if you're a bake if you like enjoy

491
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: cooking on the weekends, that should be a business or

492
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: an Instagram page or something that you can never just

493
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: not be you should never be not optimized for working

494
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: or something that looks like working. Yeah, and well, and

495
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: think about that though, like what was it you know,

496
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: my uh, like my mom would make bread on the weekends,

497
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: but she wasn't like, oh, I need to try to

498
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: like hustle on the side to like make a couple

499
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: of extra dollars. And what it was is that like

500
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: they were able to, you know, pay off my dad's

501
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: student loans, Like they were able to buy a house

502
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: in North Idaho, Like they weren't struggling constantly to cover

503
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: the costs of raising a family, Whereas because of incredible

504
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: increases in the cost of living, the cost of childcare,

505
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: the cost of healthcare, so many families that have like

506
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: dual income streams are still struggling and are like, Okay,

507
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: I gotta make an extra fifty dollars every weekend by

508
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: making bread. Yeah. That's something that I think you do

509
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: a nice job of illustrating. Is how in our generation,

510
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: millennials and older millennials, like a lot of us graduated

511
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: into the Great Recession, you know, the dot com burst,

512
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: now the instability of COVID. I feel like so many

513
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: of us we have never had the luxury of making

514
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: choices about our life based on security. Like every choice,

515
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 1: every professional choice I've made, has been based on scarcities

516
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: and based on my back is against the wall. Some

517
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: calamity is happening that's completely out of my control, and

518
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: I have to make my professional choices based on this scarcity.

519
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: And we have no idea sort of what it looks

520
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: like to be making a life at a time of stability.

521
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: I don't even really, I can't even know like grasp that. No,

522
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: you're it's so true. And I think, like especially people

523
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: who work in more creative fields, like there's this expectation

524
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: to that, like the company you work for is going

525
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: to fold, Like you know you're not going to have

526
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: any sort of stable job, Like you can't expect a

527
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: job to endure in the way that a lot of

528
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: our parents like started one job and stayed at that

529
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: job for many decades, or like my grandfather worked at

530
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: one company his entire life, right, um, And I think

531
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: that that over our chain procarity, so much of it,

532
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: you know, it comes from entering into the economy as

533
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: adults during the first Great Recession and then also just

534
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: like expecting the other shoe to drop, Like most millennials

535
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: I know are not surprised by the pandemic. They're like,

536
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: we're just waiting for everything to collapse. And to me,

537
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: that shows a psychology that is conditioned towards procarity, rights,

538
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: conditioned towards never feeling like you have a stability. And

539
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: what that does I think over the course of you know,

540
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: many millions of people over the course of a generation.

541
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: And I think it's going to affect gen z as well.

542
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: Is it it makes it hard to to be confident,

543
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: to experiment, to take risks, you know, like when people

544
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: talk about what having a universal basic income does, or

545
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: even having health insurance that's not tied to employment, is

546
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: what it does? Is it allows you to make decisions

547
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: that make life easier for you, right, that make it

548
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: so that you can find a job that doesn't feel

549
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: shitty and exploited of UM, and it allows you to

550
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: go back to school if you want to. You know,

551
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: there are all sorts of things that having even just

552
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: that modicum of stability permits for people, and we are

553
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: so deeply unfamiliar with that. So how do we get

554
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: to a place where instability is not the internalized norm

555
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: for an entire generation? I mean, create a lot more

556
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: social safety nets. So the big thing that's changed between

557
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: our parents and grandparents generation and now is that so

558
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: many of those social safety nets have been eroded. And

559
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: I'm talking about like, uh, you know, pretty basic things

560
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: like the fact that we have legislators have just largely

561
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: defunded so much funding for public education and so like

562
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: because you have so much student debt that makes it

563
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: harder to you know, if you lose a job, you're like,

564
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: well kind a default on these loans. Right, But then

565
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: also just thinking about things like UM funding for some

566
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: funding that has never existed, but funding for things like

567
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: universal pre k or even before pre k uh mandatory

568
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: paternity leave, universal health care, like things that are not

569
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: alien to most developed countries across the world, Like, these

570
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: are things that actually make life feel like you're not

571
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: conditioned to precarity. But I think that we are so

572
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: obsessed with this myth of the individual and somehow if

573
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: the individual can work harder than you'll get out of procarity.

574
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: But this is why millennials are having these sort of

575
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: existential crises, certainly myself included. Is you get to this

576
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: point of your late thirties, right, like the oldest millennials

577
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: are thirty nine and forty, and you're like, wait, I

578
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: thought by this point I would have found some stability,

579
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: and you're like, wait a second, like I have kids

580
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: or I have been you know, been in the workforce

581
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: for almost twenty years, Like where's that stability? Why isn't

582
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: it here yet, and becoming deeply disillusioned and saying like, well,

583
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: this is just broken. We need to fix this entirely.

584
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. It's like I I go back and

585
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: watch these movies that I loved in the nineties when

586
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: I when I watched Someone I was young, and all

587
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: of the main characters need to be like twenty five

588
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: and having some like fantastic job or like having a

589
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: lot of existential dread that fact by the fact that

590
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: they're not you know, but they're turning twenty eight and

591
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 1: they don't have their life other And here I am

592
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: in my like mid thirties thinking like like, oh, we

593
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: thought we were going to have stable jobs, stables, partners

594
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: owned houses by the town. We were like twenty five

595
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: like that, like that was the framework we were working with.

596
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: What is the one? Isn't it like my best friend's weddings,

597
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: they're like twenties so funny, so funny. Oh more, after

598
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back to it. The

599
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: millennial generation is one of the first generations where it's

600
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: not a given that we'll have things better than our

601
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: parents at it. And yet there was this attitude where

602
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: millennials were all lazy or entitled little brats, were all whiners.

603
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: How do we combat those attitudes? Well, I do think

604
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: that the messaging is kind of shifted, and part of

605
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 1: that is, of course that millennial us are now like

606
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: at the helmet a lot of different publications, but just

607
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: the idea that like millennials have kind of been screwed

608
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: is becoming more uh popular, I think. But then at

609
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: the same time, I think a lot of it has

610
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: to do or the way that we can change minds

611
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: about this is actually having conversations with people who are

612
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, our relatives who are are here, like people

613
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: who are older than us, that we can actually feel

614
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: like we can have a real conversation with about Like,

615
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: here's tell me about what it was like when you

616
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: had worked your way through college, which is always the

617
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: common refrain, right, which is like, I don't know why

618
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: you took out all the student debt. I managed to

619
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: work my way through college. And you're like, okay, so

620
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: how much did you make a semester? How many hours

621
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: did you work? And then you're like, and here's how

622
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: many hours someone would have to work in order to

623
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: work their way through a state college today, right, And

624
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: those things don't add up. But sometimes you need to

625
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: sit someone down and be like, here's how things have

626
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: substantively changed, and like you can do it without turning

627
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: it into like a math lecture, but you can be like,

628
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: here's how the cost of living hasn't changed, right, like

629
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: or like the ore raises haven't um been accompanied by

630
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: changes and for cost of living or even inflation, that

631
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: sort of thing. But you know, one of the things

632
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: that I tried to do a little bit was create

633
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: a little bit of empathy by being like, you know,

634
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: boomers were burnt out in some capacity too, because they

635
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 1: had grown up in this time of unprecedented economic stability,

636
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: and then as they entered the job market in the

637
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, they experienced those first waves of precarity, and

638
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: we're responding to them and so like, if anything, you know,

639
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: part of the reason boomers and millennials have such a

640
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: difficult relationship is because I think we are pretty similar

641
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: in a lot of foundational ways. I think that's a

642
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: good point. I think coming come having it come down

643
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: to empathy and having real conversations about what things looked

644
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: like because I don't know. I think about folks who

645
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: are you know, the generation you know after me, and

646
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: I want them to know we had a hard time.

647
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: I don't want them to feel as if. I want

648
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: them to know that if they are struggling to figure

649
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: it out, that we also struggled to figure it out.

650
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: I don't want them to feel like they're alone, or

651
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: that they're a whiner, or that they're you know, they

652
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: make their they have some sort of individual failing if

653
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: they can't figure it out, because I do think every

654
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: generation has has their issues with that totally well, and

655
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm seeing, you know, two different kind of discourses come

656
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: out of gen Z and one of them is like,

657
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: you guys were sold a false bill of goods. We're

658
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: going to reject that bill of goods. Right. It's like

659
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: we actually think you can like have a different sort

660
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: of life, that college maybe isn't the most important thing

661
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: in the world, that we can do something about climate change,

662
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 1: that you know, everything isn't interractable. So and I'm always

663
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: hurted by it by that posture. But then I also

664
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: see some some like stuff that's like, oh my gosh,

665
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: why are millennials such whiners? Right? Like they just need

666
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: a work harder? And I'm like, don't you dare? So

667
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: I think hopefully by creating not just empathy but actual solidarity, right,

668
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: being like, it doesn't have to be this way for us,

669
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be this way for you either.

670
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: How can we work together to change it? You make

671
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: this point a lot in your work that I love

672
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: that sometimes when we feel like we don't have a

673
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: lot of power, leaning into the collective, whether it's joining

674
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: a union, which I know more and more young people

675
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: are supportive of, or just sharing honest experiences with each

676
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: other can really be the antidote to some of the

677
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: problems that you lay out, you know, the collective. You know,

678
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: feeling like you're part of the united collective can really

679
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: make you feel a lot more powerful and left alone totally.

680
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: And it doesn't fix everything, but it does make you

681
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, this is the word right, it

682
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: makes you feel a little less alone, like it makes

683
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: you feel like you're not just fighting this problem on

684
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: your own. So much of the writing and content that

685
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: I see around burnout, particularly geared toward women, will always

686
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: have some sort of individual little thing that like, oh,

687
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: this is going to be the silver bullet or the

688
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: magic bullet that that helps you figure it out. So

689
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: whether it's using your meditation app or you know, doing

690
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: your self care manicure, or you know, quit your nine

691
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: to five and be your own girl boss. And I

692
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: am my own boss, and I can tell you that

693
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: my boss sucks. Working for her is not great all

694
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: the time, you know, And I can think, you know,

695
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: it's it's not these individual choices or actions that are

696
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: going to save us from something that is systemic, that

697
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: is that is bigger than us. And you know, I

698
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: think the real issue is capitalism, you know, And I

699
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: guess my question is how a how do we get

700
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: to a place where we unlearn that it's an like

701
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: we are doing something individually, if we are feeling burnt

702
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: out and be how can we go forward knowing that

703
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: the real issue is so much bigger than us? You know,

704
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: it's funny. So there was a critique of the book

705
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: that was, like, this book doesn't talk enough about therapy, right,

706
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: And I get it, because I do think that a

707
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: lot of the neuroses that millennials have developed, a lot

708
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: of them are things that like we need to work

709
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: through on the personal level, um, through therapy if possible,

710
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: even though therapy is not accessible to so many people. UM.

711
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,439
Speaker 1: But I also think that, like we've been taught oftentimes

712
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: that like, oh, if you have a problem with this

713
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: work play scenario, that's a personal problem, instead of thinking about, like, oh, well,

714
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: everyone I work with has this problem with this workplace,

715
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: so maybe it's a workplace problem, right, like, or all

716
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: of these people feel the same way in society right now,

717
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: Instead of that being a personal problem, it's societal problem.

718
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: It's not something that you can just work through on

719
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: your own. And also almost every millennial I know who

720
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: burnt out, who is burnt out, is either going to

721
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: therapy or has been going to therapy, right, Like, it's

722
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: not like therapy, it's going to solve those larger issues

723
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: as well. And so what we have to think about

724
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: is what are these systems that are that are making

725
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: everything so sucky? Right? Like? What are what are the

726
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: systems that make the scenario that leads us to burn out?

727
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: And I'm hardened actually by even just like the willingness

728
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: for us to say things like capitalism allowed, Like even

729
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: ten years ago, it was kind of like a like

730
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: third rail, like oh are you as socialists, Like, oh,

731
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: are you part of the occupying movement to like talk

732
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: about capitalism as this problem? Whereas now, like I mean,

733
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: in part of it, I think is the success of

734
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: memes and even just like all over TikTok and Twitter,

735
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: like you see a very clear indictment of capitalism as

736
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: the source of a lot of our ills. And I

737
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: think that, like, you know, regardless of my personal politics,

738
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: which are like much more radical than anything that I

739
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: can see us implementing in the United States in our lifetime.

740
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: I do think that there are ways to make capitalism

741
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: work for the worker, and that that is possible, and

742
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: that there are plans or policy suggestions that can make

743
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: that possible and we can do it. The big first

744
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: step is regime change. So even though it's hokey to say,

745
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: like we have to vote, like we have to resume change,

746
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: and then we have to make some big changes and

747
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 1: be willing to, you know, make ourselves amenable to those changes,

748
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: not just incremental ones, but things that might feel scary

749
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: um because they're going to reorganize our lives and I

750
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: think for the better. So I might have to ask,

751
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, in your in the excerpts that I read,

752
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: you talked about feeling so burnt out and how writing

753
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: that BuzzFeed piece was in a in a way trying

754
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: to kind of come to terms with that. How has

755
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: that how has that looked like for your personal journey?

756
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: Are you still feeling that way where you're give me

757
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: give me a check in, Uh, Well, I'm pretty burnt

758
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: out in the moment, I think because I'm trying to

759
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: wrestle starting like this newsletter that I'm doing is basically

760
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: like becoming my own shitty boss, like you said, but

761
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: then also letting getting this book out into the world,

762
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: which requires a lot of talking about the book, which

763
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 1: I find incredibly gratifying, but it also is time right um.

764
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: And and then trying to think to the future about

765
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: other big projects, like whether that's books or whatever. And

766
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: it was all really amplified for me a couple of

767
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: weeks ago when the smoke got so bad out here

768
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: in the West and I realized that, like the one

769
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: release valve that I had cultivated over the course of

770
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: just general work stress, but also like COVID and quarantine stress,

771
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: was being able to go outside. And when that was

772
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: taken away from me for a week, I was just like,

773
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: I I have nothing, Like I'm collapsing under the weight

774
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: of this this house of cards that I've built for myself.

775
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: And think that drove home to me, like just how

776
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: fragile things were, like I've the balance was in my

777
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: life of trying to keep work and some sort of

778
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: release uh at the same time. But I mean the

779
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: thing for myself like, no, of course I'm not cured

780
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: to burnout, but what I can do is I can

781
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: recognize burnout behaviors more easily they can try to like

782
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: see them for what they are and just kind of

783
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: not judge them, but be like, Okay, how can I

784
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: maybe shift a couple of things just quietly in my

785
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: life to to try to change that um And you know,

786
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: talking about it definitely makes it feel better. I agree.

787
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: I have to tell you you're you're writing and burnout

788
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: made me feel you know, we talked about the collective

789
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: and feeling less alone. Just knowing that I'm not the

790
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 1: only person who feels such incredible shame around my atrocious

791
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: inbox or my inability to just get simple ship done,

792
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: or the package that's been in the back of my

793
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: car for six months. Just knowing that it's not just

794
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: me really gave me the power to just start thinking

795
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: about it and talking about it honestly, like like I

796
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: really do like you opened up that space for so

797
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: many people, myself included to do that. So I'm so

798
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: grateful for your work. Yeah, I think it was something

799
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: that a lot of us were ashamed of for a

800
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: long time. It's like we there was this idea that

801
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: you had to somehow be like doing all the ship right,

802
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: like that you had to like keeping it all, be

803
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: keeping it all together at all times, and uh, you know,

804
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: even the people who are like, oh, I'm so authentic

805
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 1: on Instagram or whatever like that is such a performance

806
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: of like messiness, like it's not actual messiness, uh or vulnerability.

807
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: And so I just hope that we can continue to

808
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: have this conversation and all of the different directions it

809
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: takes us, and also continue to be really piste off

810
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,479
Speaker 1: about it, because I want to use that anger, uh

811
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 1: and use it to like push us towards change. Where

812
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: can folks subscribe to the sub stec and keep up

813
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: with your work online? So you can go to Anne

814
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: Helen dot substack dot com or just google my name

815
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: and sub stack and will come up. Um, and I

816
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: would love to have you there. Nothing we're dealing with

817
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: right now is normal. So if you're feeling burnt out

818
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: or like you can't get anything done or you can't

819
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: find any motivation, that's okay. None of us are operating

820
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: under normal circumstances, and you shouldn't expect yourself to perform

821
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 1: like we are. How have you been dealing with burn out?

822
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: Hit us up at Hello at tangodi dot com and

823
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: let us know. Got a story about an interesting thing

824
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. You can

825
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can

826
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com.

827
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

828
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I Heeart Radio

829
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer, Tara

830
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: Harrison as our producer, and sound engineer. Michael Amato is

831
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Tod. If you

832
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on

833
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more pod cast from iHeart Radio, check

834
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

835
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. H