Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up.
Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last
Speaker 2: choice that made as a free man. A year later,
Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone
Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster
Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,
Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace
Speaker 3: with that.
Speaker 4: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the
Speaker 4: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.
Speaker 5: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
Speaker 5: might have to play in my hanging.
Speaker 6: They had been told that two.
Speaker 3: Prison officers would have to participate in my execution.
Speaker 6: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,
Speaker 6: all help broke loose.
Speaker 1: But Welcome to another episode of Ronful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
Speaker 1: This is part two of the San Diego series, where
Speaker 1: we'll be doing shorter interviews than usual because we have
Speaker 1: so many incredible people here at the Ennisis Network conference. Today,
Speaker 1: I'll be interviewing Christine Bunch and Ob Anthony.
Speaker 5: The tragedy for Christine Bunch began in nineteen ninety five
Speaker 5: when a fire in this Greensburg mobile home killed her
Speaker 5: three year old son.
Speaker 3: The mother who spent nearly seventeen years in prison for
Speaker 3: arson and murder after state fire investigators hit evidence.
Speaker 2: That could have cleared her, Christine Bunch has maintained her
Speaker 2: innocence all.
Speaker 3: Along years of anguish for a crime she says she
Speaker 3: did not commit.
Speaker 5: Now over all charges were eventually dropped against Christine Bunch
Speaker 5: after the original report surface.
Speaker 1: And Indiana mother who spent sixteen years in prison in
Speaker 1: the killing of her young son is free tonight after
Speaker 1: charges against her are dropped. Christine, welcome, Thank you. We
Speaker 1: are in the Sunshine in San Diego where we are
Speaker 1: broadcasting from the Innocence Network, which is a conference where
Speaker 1: we bring together this year. I think we have two
Speaker 1: hundred dexonrees. Yes, we do, with people from the movement,
Speaker 1: social workers, attorneys, counselors, teachers, law students, law students, press.
Speaker 1: It's really it's I mean, the amount of positive energy
Speaker 1: that's being generated here this weekend is remarkable. Wouldn't you say.
Speaker 2: It's incredible and you can kizz.
Speaker 1: And you are right in the middle of it. I
Speaker 1: don't know your energy is so incredible. So Christine was
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted in one of the worst possible scenarios, which
Speaker 1: is that she lost her child. Her three year old son, Anthony,
Speaker 1: was killed in a fire in your home. And we
Speaker 1: know now, and I think they knew then that the
Speaker 1: arson science is not really science. Not only did they
Speaker 1: know that, but also they really knew that this was
Speaker 1: not arson. Why they felt they wanted to go after
Speaker 1: you in the way they did, I don't know they
Speaker 1: will ever understand, because it's like trying to understand evil.
Speaker 1: But one way or another, you were wrongfully convicted. And
Speaker 1: this Innocent Network conference is about overcoming and triumphing, and
Speaker 1: you are certainly a great example of that. First, let's
Speaker 1: go back to that awful time and just give the
Speaker 1: audience a sense of what was going on. You were
Speaker 1: very young at the time, right.
Speaker 5: I was twenty one and a single mother, working, going
Speaker 5: to school, and I had my three year old, and
Speaker 5: so my life was just busy and full.
Speaker 2: And one morning I woke up.
Speaker 5: And was surprised because I thought it was foggy in
Speaker 5: the house, and in truth, it was on fire. And
Speaker 5: it takes a minute for your brain to realize what's
Speaker 5: happening what you're doing in that moment, because you're just
Speaker 5: frozen with fear, and it's like your mind goes blank.
Speaker 5: And then it's like you're running through mud trying to
Speaker 5: figure out what do I do? And I'm throwing things
Speaker 5: on it because you always hear in school, but we
Speaker 5: don't realize that the materials we use now are synthetics
Speaker 5: and they just melt. They don't smother it. It's burning
Speaker 5: in your hands. So I ran out the door to
Speaker 5: get help and fed the fire. When I went out,
Speaker 5: oxygen came in and made it even bigger. But you're
Speaker 5: just panicked, thinking I've got to get in there.
Speaker 2: I've got to do something.
Speaker 5: So then I broke a window with his tricycle and
Speaker 5: tried to climb in, and by that time the flames
Speaker 5: were coming through the roof. They took me to the hospital,
Speaker 5: and of course I'm asking did you find him? Because
Speaker 5: I couldn't find him. It never occurred to me that
Speaker 5: he wasn't coming out alive. And that simple statement was
Speaker 5: used against me at my trial because I asked, did
Speaker 5: you find him? Like they said, I knew he was
Speaker 5: already dead, but you just don't think that things will
Speaker 5: happen to you like that.
Speaker 1: There's nothing in the phrase did you find him that
Speaker 1: says to me, did you find a dead body? I
Speaker 1: mean exactly. They twist these things in so many ways,
Speaker 1: and it's so weird too. I Mean we see over
Speaker 1: and over again in wrongful conviction cases, especially cases like yours,
Speaker 1: where they say, well, you didn't react the way we
Speaker 1: think you should have. You were too upset, you weren't
Speaker 1: upset enough. I mean, how is anyone supposed to know
Speaker 1: how you're going to react. Everyone reacts differently in all
Speaker 1: types of panic situations. Right, this is beyond pattered, This
Speaker 1: is terror, This is sheer terror. You've almost lost your
Speaker 1: life in the process of losing your son you don't
Speaker 1: even know, and your home and you just woke up
Speaker 1: and add that type of thing that people most people,
Speaker 1: they just wake up. They don't even know what to do.
Speaker 1: They stumble arounds looking for the coffee machine. Right. I mean,
Speaker 1: here you are just waking up and the house is
Speaker 1: on fire, and everything that you're trying to do to
Speaker 1: help is backfiring, right exactly, because because who the hell
Speaker 1: would know, right? I mean, yeah, they teach us a
Speaker 1: little bit in school, right, throw a thing on it.
Speaker 1: But I mean, it's not like you took fire. You
Speaker 1: weren't a volunteer firefighter or anything like that. Right, So
Speaker 1: now the sort of witch hunt or whatever you want
Speaker 1: to call it starts. They decide that this is something
Speaker 1: they want to pursue. They're going to get this. Mom,
Speaker 1: you go to trial, did you think that you were
Speaker 1: going to be vindicated? Do you think that it was curtains?
Speaker 1: I mean, they had these arson investigators and all these
Speaker 1: supposed experts saying all this stuff about these accelerants, which
Speaker 1: we now know not only isn't a real science but
Speaker 1: also wasn't true. But exactly what were you thinking? You're
Speaker 1: just a kid and indicator Indiana, right.
Speaker 5: Right, I mean you're always taught the police or your
Speaker 5: friends they're going to find out the truth. You know,
Speaker 5: they would never do anything wrong. So I went to
Speaker 5: court thinking I'm going to go home, They're going to
Speaker 5: see the truth.
Speaker 2: They're going to see me that I didn't do this.
Speaker 5: And then when they said guilty, I was just in shock.
Speaker 2: I just blanked.
Speaker 5: Everybody's trying to ask me questions on the way out
Speaker 5: going to the police station, and I mean, I'm still
Speaker 5: registering what they just said to me, let alone trying
Speaker 5: to answer your question.
Speaker 2: So I'm just looking at them and it's just a blur.
Speaker 1: Right, And this is in Christine. This is what we
Speaker 1: see on TV all the time, right, the people that's
Speaker 1: at the cameras, the reporter's yelling yes, yeah, they're all
Speaker 1: and now they're all part of this mob mentality. Right,
Speaker 1: You're stuck in a nightmare that would be unimaginable to
Speaker 1: anyone who hasn't been through a day. Then you're sent
Speaker 1: to prison, sentenced to I.
Speaker 5: Was sentenced to sixty years for murder, fifty for arson,
Speaker 5: and they ran them concurrently, so it was just the
Speaker 5: sixty years.
Speaker 1: Just sixty, just sixty, right, and you were twenty one,
Speaker 1: so had eighty one you would have come out on
Speaker 1: your walker and maybe maybe if you were prolled. So
Speaker 1: you go to prison and.
Speaker 2: Go to prison, and now you're pregnant. I am pregnant.
Speaker 5: I was released on bond when it came back the
Speaker 5: test results came back that it wasn't gasoline because they
Speaker 5: thought I'd use gasoline to set the fire. So when
Speaker 5: those results came back negative for gasoline, my judge put
Speaker 5: me out on bond.
Speaker 1: I would have seemed like an appropriate time to drop
Speaker 1: the charges, but they decided to put you out on bond.
Speaker 2: They put me out on bond, and.
Speaker 5: I feel like it wasn't the best thing, but the
Speaker 5: best thing came out of it, because when I came out,
Speaker 5: I was doing all the wrong things. I was taking
Speaker 5: whatever anybody gave me. I was drinking. I honestly didn't
Speaker 5: care if I woke up. I lost everything. I mean,
Speaker 5: finding out I was pregnant with Tony changed my life,
Speaker 5: and I changed my life to take care of my
Speaker 5: son and give him everything that I.
Speaker 2: Could give him.
Speaker 5: And when I lost him, I didn't want to live.
Speaker 5: I wanted to be numb. I didn't want to feel,
Speaker 5: and so I was very reckless. And I met a
Speaker 5: guy and spent some time with him, and he was
Speaker 5: feeding me whatever.
Speaker 2: I wanted to be numb.
Speaker 5: And then I started getting really sick and found out
Speaker 5: that I was pregnant, and I didn't think that I
Speaker 5: could have anymore. So that was kind of my miracle moment,
Speaker 5: and I changed everything and started focusing on fighting because
Speaker 5: I had a son to fight for.
Speaker 2: I had something to live for at that moment.
Speaker 1: And this is a really I think interesting part of
Speaker 1: the story in that you gave birth in prison. Yes,
Speaker 1: And as we spoke about before, there's different protocols in
Speaker 1: different places in the country, in the world. There's no
Speaker 1: good answer for how do you deal with a baby
Speaker 1: in prison and having a child yanked away, whether it's
Speaker 1: on twenty four hours in as what happened to you, yeah,
Speaker 1: or three years later like those that last period of
Speaker 1: time like counting down the minutes or the second I
Speaker 1: can't even imagine. It's just so horrible. But in Indiana,
Speaker 1: their policy was twenty four hours and then kid goodbye.
Speaker 5: Yes, you're going back to the facility and the baby's
Speaker 5: going home.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: My family took my son and they had him right
Speaker 5: over to the prison because I passed them on my
Speaker 5: way back out to be transferred to the facility, and
Speaker 5: both of us weren't supposed to be released until the
Speaker 5: next day. So I passed my dad and I'm I'm
Speaker 5: sobbing and telling him, don't leave my baby here.
Speaker 2: I can't lose another baby. You got to get my baby.
Speaker 5: So the doctor that actually delivered him helped my family
Speaker 5: to get a car seat and blankets so they could
Speaker 5: take him right then because they had everything for the
Speaker 5: next day, and then he brought him straight over to
Speaker 5: the prison so that I would know that they had him,
Speaker 5: and I did have to worry.
Speaker 1: That was at least a small blessing that you were
Speaker 1: able to have family and know that your baby son
Speaker 1: was going to be taken care of and protected and loved,
Speaker 1: and you got to have visitation with him ten hours
Speaker 1: a month. Was that how it worked out?
Speaker 5: You get ten hours a month in the regular visiting
Speaker 5: room where you can't really do anything. You have to
Speaker 5: be sitting in a chair, so I could hold him
Speaker 5: on my lap, But it took a while for us
Speaker 5: to change the policy where I could get on the
Speaker 5: floor and do blocks with him on the table or cars.
Speaker 5: But when I first got there, you sat in the chair.
Speaker 5: Your family went and got chips or a coke for you.
Speaker 5: You couldn't move, and if he needed something like its
Speaker 5: diaper changed or to be fed, my family would have
Speaker 5: to get up and go out into the outer court
Speaker 5: and take care of that there.
Speaker 2: That couldn't be done in the visiting room.
Speaker 5: So I didn't really have any hands on until six
Speaker 5: months in when they opened the Family Present program and
Speaker 5: our children could come in for one on one visits
Speaker 5: with us, and so then I got an extra ten
Speaker 5: hours a month just for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and that's something I want to highlight is
Speaker 1: that these programs in the prisons that provide a little
Speaker 1: glimpse of humanity in an otherwise cold and cruel and
Speaker 1: purely punitive system that we have here is so important.
Speaker 1: And in your case, I can see you lighting up
Speaker 1: talking about it. I mean, what a difference that makes,
Speaker 1: you know, so, and obviously what a difference it did make,
Speaker 1: and so ultimately your case was overturned. It was sixteen
Speaker 1: years later. Yes, let's just talk for a moment about
Speaker 1: what that was like, vindication, freedom, I mean.
Speaker 5: Just the new evidence that came out in the case.
Speaker 5: You know, my son reached an eighty percent carbon monoxide
Speaker 5: level that was new fire science from a forensic toxicologist.
Speaker 5: And hearing her say that I was in the very
Speaker 5: next room and was probably half of that level and hallucinating.
Speaker 5: Everything's blurry, everything's slow, you're sluggish. I mean that made
Speaker 5: me feel better because you always think you can do more.
Speaker 2: And then finding out they falsified an ATF.
Speaker 5: Re board that right there, that was vindication for me,
Speaker 5: if I'd never walked out, at least I knew that
Speaker 5: it wasn't it wasn't an arson, he wasn't murdered. It
Speaker 5: was just an accident, and that I think was the
Speaker 5: best moment. Walking out was good, but it's scary, and I.
Speaker 1: Want to talk about that. And the Center for Wronful
Speaker 1: Convictions played a big role in your exoneration, so I
Speaker 1: want to give them respect and from both of us
Speaker 1: because without them you wouldn't be here. And your advocate
Speaker 1: was Betsy Marx right as well. So there's a number
Speaker 1: of heroes in this situation, and ultimately you walked out,
Speaker 1: and that's what I really want to focus on. Because
Speaker 1: we're here at the Innocence Network conference and watching people
Speaker 1: heal and recover and transform themselves. It's such a powerful thing.
Speaker 1: Every time I see it, it just makes me want
Speaker 1: to do more and more and everything I can to
Speaker 1: help and promote this work. So when you get out,
Speaker 1: then what sixteen years a long time?
Speaker 2: Yes, very long time.
Speaker 1: So what were the things like, how did where did
Speaker 1: you go? How did you reconnect? And what could we
Speaker 1: as a society do differently to help others who are
Speaker 1: coming out after this type of ordeal.
Speaker 5: I think it's important for people to know that you
Speaker 5: don't have to give a whole lot out of your
Speaker 5: wallet to make a difference for us, if we just had.
Speaker 2: People that would give us time.
Speaker 5: I mean, I didn't know, and it was like the
Speaker 5: most embarrassing thing for me. I'm thirty nine years old.
Speaker 5: It took me ten minutes to get out of the
Speaker 5: bathroom because they had removed the knobs on the water
Speaker 5: faucets and I didn't know how to turn it on.
Speaker 5: I just thankfully finally flicked something automatic.
Speaker 1: Yes, so I still have trouble with that.
Speaker 5: It came on and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 5: and I'm in tears by the time I come out,
Speaker 5: and there's my brother saying, what's wrong?
Speaker 2: Are you sick? Is there a problem? I said, I
Speaker 2: didn't know how to turn.
Speaker 5: On the water, And so things like that make me
Speaker 5: want to stay at home because I don't want to
Speaker 5: go out and be embarrassed and tell people I don't
Speaker 5: know how to do this. I was waiting for a
Speaker 5: full service gas station and we don't have those anymore.
Speaker 5: So things that I've never learned how to do, like
Speaker 5: change my oil or check my entire pressure. I now
Speaker 5: have to go find somebody to do that, because I
Speaker 5: can't just pull up and say fill it up, and
Speaker 5: can you check everything?
Speaker 1: Do you remember what time you were actually released?
Speaker 2: I want to say it's four or five in the afternoon, and.
Speaker 1: What did you do? Where'd you go?
Speaker 5: So first we went, I didn't talk to any of
Speaker 5: those reporters that called me a baby killer, and I
Speaker 5: gave one interview with Sandra Chapman because she had interviewed
Speaker 5: me in the prison and helped push my case forward,
Speaker 5: so she was the only exclusive.
Speaker 2: That I gave.
Speaker 5: And we went to a park and I got to
Speaker 5: walk in the grass barefoot, and we had a nice
Speaker 5: time there. And then we went over to Bistro three
Speaker 5: ten and I had champagne with my attorneys, and they
Speaker 5: made me some scallops because seafood was my favorite. They
Speaker 5: asked what kind of food I wanted. I said colorful,
Speaker 5: and she said, what do you mean? And I said
Speaker 5: everything in there is kind.
Speaker 2: Of brown and gray and it's just not pretty.
Speaker 5: I said, I want to eat vegetables that are colored
Speaker 5: and nice, and cheese and different kinds of things. So
Speaker 5: they set me up with hummus and peda and the
Speaker 5: color not.
Speaker 2: All of it. There was a spicy that was kind
Speaker 2: of red, and I.
Speaker 1: Would have gotten a strawberry or maybe like.
Speaker 5: I had that for dessert, I had a whole plate
Speaker 5: of different fruits and cream cheese dip and then whipped
Speaker 5: cream up.
Speaker 2: Was incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds incredible. And then you went where.
Speaker 5: Then I went to my mother's house where my son
Speaker 5: was staying, and I was upmost the night because I'd
Speaker 5: never gotten to see my baby sleep.
Speaker 1: That's an incredible visual. And I see you tearing up.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying not to myself. And now you
Speaker 1: watch them sleep, you get up the next day. Is
Speaker 1: it starting to feel real? At that point?
Speaker 5: It's feeling real? It's also feeling frightening. I mean, the
Speaker 5: only thing I have is my literally my prison uniform
Speaker 5: and white white tennis shoes in a bag. I had
Speaker 5: no clothes, I have no hygiens. I don't have a toothbrush,
Speaker 5: and I'm thinking, I have no money. How am I
Speaker 5: supposed to get these things? I have no vehicle, how
Speaker 5: am I supposed to get around? And thank goodness, I
Speaker 5: mean three o'clock in the afternoon, when my brother got
Speaker 5: off of work. He came in, picked me up, and
Speaker 5: we went out to eat, and I literally again had
Speaker 5: no idea what to order.
Speaker 2: Decisions are so real hard because for.
Speaker 5: So long I haven't made any and I'm trying to
Speaker 5: branch out and get better.
Speaker 2: With that, but it's still it's still an issue that
Speaker 2: I go through.
Speaker 5: So we ate and I had a peach frozen margarita
Speaker 5: and a steak, and then he took me shopping, and
Speaker 5: so we went into this clothing store and there's all
Speaker 5: these colors and he's like, what do you want.
Speaker 2: Well, I've had nothing but.
Speaker 5: White and khaki. I have no idea, and so my
Speaker 5: eyes bug out and he was like, okay, he said,
Speaker 5: you go in the fitting room. I'm going to bring
Speaker 5: you outfits. So he brought me back outfits and the
Speaker 5: things that I put on and said this fits good, and.
Speaker 2: I like this.
Speaker 5: They went into the keep pile and everything else went back.
Speaker 5: And then when we left there, he took me to
Speaker 5: an old fashioned candy store and got me some candy
Speaker 5: that we had when we were kids. And then we
Speaker 5: went to a wine store and I tasted some wine
Speaker 5: and he picked up a couple bottles of.
Speaker 2: That, and then we went to Walmart, and at.
Speaker 5: That point, I'm like, wow, you know, I'm over the
Speaker 5: moon with everything I'm seeing. And Walmart's now Super Walmart.
Speaker 5: And we go to pick out shampoo and he's like,
Speaker 5: what do you want? Well, I've only had two choices
Speaker 5: and there's a whole aisle.
Speaker 2: I have no idea. So here's my brother and we're
Speaker 2: smelling them up and down the aisle. He said, we'll
Speaker 2: just pick what smells good. So we went through and
Speaker 2: we found something that I liked.
Speaker 5: And so by the time we get through there and
Speaker 5: I'm like, you know, I need some feminine products. There's
Speaker 5: a whole isle of that, and he's like, what do
Speaker 5: you want. Well, I've only had one sixteen years and
Speaker 5: I don't know. And at this point I'm I'm done.
Speaker 5: I'm wiped out. I can't speak, and here I start crying.
Speaker 5: And so he looks at me and he was like,
Speaker 5: it's okay. He said, my wife uses this, and he
Speaker 5: puts it in the cart and he said and if
Speaker 5: you don't like it, he said, we'll come back every
Speaker 5: day until we find what works for you. And so
Speaker 5: he took me to his house and I had wine
Speaker 5: and he made me homemade guacamole, and I sat.
Speaker 2: Visiting with him. Yes, it's colorful. And then I ended
Speaker 2: up spending the night with him. And then the next day.
Speaker 5: Is when he took me to the movie theater and
Speaker 5: I couldn't turn on the water, so he.
Speaker 2: Made it good.
Speaker 5: And he's the one that between him and my son,
Speaker 5: they kept me going out instead of hiding in the
Speaker 5: house and not.
Speaker 2: Dealing with people.
Speaker 5: And they helped me get my license. I had to
Speaker 5: have a learner's permit again. They taught me how to
Speaker 5: build up my credits, how to use the internet.
Speaker 2: Social media awesome.
Speaker 1: What is your social media? Do you want to plug
Speaker 1: it on the podcast? Do you want more people to
Speaker 1: follow you or are you more of a private kind
Speaker 1: of person.
Speaker 5: No, I mean people can follow me. I'm on Twitter, Yeah,
Speaker 5: with Christine.
Speaker 1: Bunch Christine Bunch kri is t I N E b
Speaker 1: U nch on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk about your organization, Justice
Speaker 1: for just Us. Yes, you had a wonderful support group,
Speaker 1: which was your family, but many people have nothing exactly.
Speaker 1: People learn for thirty years, they come out, they've got
Speaker 1: nobody left. It's a catchy name, Justice for just Us
Speaker 1: what's just us?
Speaker 5: Just us is it's a combination. I have one Rivera
Speaker 5: who's another ex honery. He spent twenty one years and
Speaker 5: he is in Illinois. I'm in Indiana, and we decided
Speaker 5: we wanted to do something because people come out and
Speaker 5: they have no one. You spend forty years in there,
Speaker 5: most of your families probably died, and there's no one
Speaker 5: to meet you. There's no one to take you out
Speaker 5: shopping and do the things that my brother did. So
Speaker 5: we decided that it was up to us to bring
Speaker 5: justice to other ex honeries. So we're getting ready to
Speaker 5: put in for our non for profit that'll probably go
Speaker 5: in a couple of weeks, and our hope is that
Speaker 5: we can continue to train and hire other exoneries in
Speaker 5: their states and just make our community aware of what
Speaker 5: people need when they walk out, how they can help.
Speaker 2: Everybody can help.
Speaker 5: If you have a barber shop, give an exonery a haircut,
Speaker 5: If you have a clothing shop, give them a new
Speaker 5: outfit so they can go get do an interview.
Speaker 2: So we hope that we can just keep.
Speaker 5: Educating through our speaking events and bring people in to help.
Speaker 5: And even if you give a gift card of twenty dollars.
Speaker 5: That's a shirt for someone. Sure, that's something easy. You
Speaker 5: don't have to donate thousands of dollars to make a difference,
Speaker 5: just taking someone on the bus.
Speaker 1: Many people listening probably saying, well, but I don't know
Speaker 1: how to find that person, So I mean, would you
Speaker 1: recommend they go to an Innocence project website, maybe a
Speaker 1: local innocence project website, or because they are innstance projects
Speaker 1: all around the country.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you can go to any of the NISNCE Projects
Speaker 5: websites and find ways that you can volunteer and help
Speaker 5: and help with our exoneries. Our Facebook page is just
Speaker 5: is iss four and it's the number just us.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's just is justis the number four just
Speaker 1: us on Facebook.
Speaker 2: Oh we also have a website under that name as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, good, so get involved. Christine Bunch has been our wonderful,
Speaker 1: amazing guest today. Thank you. You can't see her smile,
Speaker 1: but she has a magnetic smile and if you were
Speaker 1: here with me, you would absolutely want to give her
Speaker 1: a hug, which is exactly what I'm going to do
Speaker 1: as soon as we get off the air. So thank
Speaker 1: you Christine again for being here. And for sharing your experience,
Speaker 1: strength and hope. And now let's get right into it
Speaker 1: with the one and only Obie Anthony.
Speaker 3: Anthony and Cole were convicted twenty years ago of a
Speaker 3: shooting death in South.
Speaker 6: LA back in nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 4: Anthony's legal team says a pinpoint of the finger at
Speaker 4: the two men.
Speaker 3: They were released four years ago after a key witness
Speaker 3: with Candida's testimony.
Speaker 6: The pimp later Recanaida's story.
Speaker 3: Their lawyers then found out an La Times reporter had
Speaker 3: taken home shellcasings from the murder scene that could have
Speaker 3: pointed to another suspect.
Speaker 4: Prosecutors and police refused to admit that they did anything wrong.
Speaker 2: In this case.
Speaker 7: There was not one piece of physical evidence and that's
Speaker 7: the key. That's what the police did wrong in this case.
Speaker 7: They ignored the evidence of innocence and twisted the evidence
Speaker 7: to point towards guilt because they wanted to clear a case.
Speaker 3: The two detectives that helped put ob Anthony and his
Speaker 3: co defended behind bars, one still works for the LAPD.
Speaker 7: According to Obi Anthony's lawyers and the judge that exonerated him,
Speaker 7: evidence showed they were never here the night of the killing.
Speaker 1: Oh be welcome to the show.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: You were sentenced to life in prison.
Speaker 6: Life without the positive parole.
Speaker 1: Yeah, life like the no joke version of life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like some life life and like the one that
Speaker 4: you know, we're not even talking about talking to you forever,
Speaker 4: like it's no parole.
Speaker 1: And you were framed.
Speaker 4: I was actually framed by the detective Marcella Win. They
Speaker 4: had information from the very onset that me and my
Speaker 4: codyfriended at the time.
Speaker 6: Reggie Cole wasn't involved. It was her.
Speaker 4: Plus it was her Win on that end of the
Speaker 4: bargain because she has in the law, in the eyes
Speaker 4: of her co workers, are successful incarceration and now it's
Speaker 4: just pending in a conviction. So it was her who
Speaker 4: actually framed me.
Speaker 1: And how did it come to be that you even
Speaker 1: became a suspect in this because it's funny looking at
Speaker 1: you now, I mean you can't see him on the radio,
Speaker 1: but he's a very dapper individual, very good looking gentleman.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, he's got his here at the at
Speaker 1: the conference where everybody's kind of casual. He's got the
Speaker 1: tie and the vest and the sharp looking shirt and everything.
Speaker 1: So I mean, how did you get wrapped up in
Speaker 1: this nightmare? What was it like for you? You were
Speaker 1: you were just a young man trying to make it
Speaker 1: in the world.
Speaker 6: You know, I want to mislead your listeners.
Speaker 4: I grew up in the inner city of Los Angeles, California,
Speaker 4: South central.
Speaker 6: I was involved in gangs.
Speaker 4: But actually got me involved in this case here that
Speaker 4: got me wrongfully convicted was because they allegedly got anonymous
Speaker 4: call saying that a guy made a bad move.
Speaker 6: On forty ninth Street and hung up the phone.
Speaker 4: From that phone call, the young lady, Marcella Wynn, the
Speaker 4: caller gave the name of Baby Day. She said that
Speaker 4: she ran the name Baby Day through the gang database
Speaker 4: and she she had hits with the name baby Day,
Speaker 4: but it was multiple hits, and she determined that the
Speaker 4: Baby Day that she was looking for was a guy
Speaker 4: named Michael Miller out of all of those Baby Days.
Speaker 4: And then come to find out he was incarcerated at
Speaker 4: that time with me. And so that's how they got
Speaker 4: their hands on my picture.
Speaker 1: Well, and this was nineteen ninety four, and yeah, it
Speaker 1: was a very violent time and they were interested in
Speaker 1: processing these cases and closing them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, that time, you had a news reporter by
Speaker 4: the name of Mama's Coren who was acting as a
Speaker 4: follow alone reporter with the LAPD at that time, and
Speaker 4: that's what he was writing in reporting on in nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety for was the gang violence in south central Los
Speaker 4: Angeles and a murder rate in which the Homicide division
Speaker 4: and in other words, their cases and what they had.
Speaker 4: And so he had the privilege at that point to
Speaker 4: ride along with Marcelo Win and Pete Resistance, the detective
Speaker 4: that was involved in my homicide case, which turned out
Speaker 4: to be a plus because that reporter reported what he
Speaker 4: seen as he seen it, while those investigative detectives that
Speaker 4: work for the police department left out all of the
Speaker 4: pertinent information which was pertinent to prove my innocence.
Speaker 6: So it was it was, you know, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this was well, it is common, Yes, I mean common.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to even find the right word for it.
Speaker 1: It's like it's pervasive. This kind of behavior among its criminal.
Speaker 1: I'll call it criminal. It is criminal. It's criminal as
Speaker 1: it is, as it is common, unfortunately, and the fact
Speaker 1: is that it's hard for people to understand why and
Speaker 1: how it goes so wrong when the people who we
Speaker 1: pay to protect us, that protect and serve right go
Speaker 1: on this rogue mission. And I know, you know they
Speaker 1: say power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts, absolutely, and I
Speaker 1: think they become desensitized to a certain extent when they're
Speaker 1: dealing with one case after another, and it starts to
Speaker 1: become like a just a system, and it becomes very
Speaker 1: inconvenient when they start to realize that they got the
Speaker 1: wrong guy, but they've already put the work in. But
Speaker 1: it's weird that And I know it's got to be
Speaker 1: weird from your perspective because you were in for what
Speaker 1: seventeen years, correct, right, So how they could just so
Speaker 1: callously literally throw somebody's life away because you're missing out
Speaker 1: on I mean, seventeen years and you know, arguably those
Speaker 1: could be the best seventeen years of your life.
Speaker 4: Arguably, I mean, he taking consideration, I walked out of
Speaker 4: the prison.
Speaker 6: At the age of thirty seven.
Speaker 4: I walked into the institution at the age of nineteen,
Speaker 4: So you're right, my young adult life was the time
Speaker 4: for me to have kids. Twenty one, twenty two, twenty three,
Speaker 4: twenty four, twenty five, twenty six, I think for the
Speaker 4: woman it cuts it off At twenty eight twenty.
Speaker 6: Nine said something about the eggs. I don't know. I
Speaker 6: don't know if they're true.
Speaker 4: Or not, But at some point or another, you have
Speaker 4: to realize and appreciate the fact that those same dilemmas
Speaker 4: plague demand too. His count drops, and it drops even
Speaker 4: more drastically because he's been affected by an institution who's
Speaker 4: poisoning in him.
Speaker 6: You got to take that in mind.
Speaker 4: You have some of the most healthier specimens to walk
Speaker 4: into institutions and come out ridd of with diseases and
Speaker 4: plague with things. In other words, they can't get rid
Speaker 4: of why because the medical program that they have inside
Speaker 4: is designed to do just that break their body down,
Speaker 4: and so they don't get the healthcare in which the
Speaker 4: great public think that they're getting.
Speaker 1: And that the public is paying for.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess they keep that in mind. In other words, yeah,
Speaker 4: keep that in mind that the public is paying for. Right,
Speaker 4: So the public is contributing funds to this institution to
Speaker 4: ke care of medically mentally these individuals who have been incarcerated.
Speaker 4: But nevertheless those things are not happening. They're passing out
Speaker 4: thor zene and cinequons as though it's Halloween and it
Speaker 4: was candy for trigger treat and we know that thor
Speaker 4: zene is a medication that they used to lobottomize people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we had Jason Baldwin on the show. He
Speaker 1: was talking about the thor Zen Shuffle and how he
Speaker 1: was avoiding that being placed in that situation at all costs,
Speaker 1: even at his own extreme risk to his own personal safety,
Speaker 1: because they offered to put him in there for his
Speaker 1: own protection. He said, I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 4: Reason why it is because he recognized that was part
Speaker 4: of the mechanisms, in other words, to destroy his body
Speaker 4: so his spirit wouldn't have the strength to fight to
Speaker 4: get out. Got to fight to get your body right,
Speaker 4: and then you fight for everything else.
Speaker 1: Let me go back to this though, be because it's
Speaker 1: always incredible to me the spirit of the people that
Speaker 1: are in this building right now, right and you're one
Speaker 1: of two hundred men and women who've been through these
Speaker 1: unbelievable ordeals. How did you find the strength to continue
Speaker 1: to fight? I mean you're just a young guy, a
Speaker 1: young black guy in a system that's full of young
Speaker 1: black guys, right, And I know and I know you're
Speaker 1: focused on that and the disparity between how the justice
Speaker 1: system treats white people and minorities, right, And it's an
Speaker 1: American shame, But the.
Speaker 6: An American tradition is American pleasure.
Speaker 4: I mean, however, it's a shame for those individuals who
Speaker 4: has to suffer, but for those individuals who inflict that
Speaker 4: sufferers a pleasure in their desires.
Speaker 1: I hate to think of.
Speaker 6: It that way, but not what they're doing, and that's
Speaker 6: what they've been doing.
Speaker 4: And as not as though the resident people of somehow
Speaker 4: another not even ignorant about those things. They just try
Speaker 4: to fight against what they're doing, versus creating a situation.
Speaker 6: To stop what they're doing. To totally to different kind
Speaker 6: of thinking.
Speaker 1: And it's crazy because we know that in the rest
Speaker 1: of the civilized world, Western Europe and places like that,
Speaker 1: they treat incarceration as rehabilitation. We treat it here as punishment.
Speaker 1: It's and it's it just doesn't make any sense, you know.
Speaker 1: I often say, like when I'm a politician or somebody
Speaker 1: like that I'm talking to about these issues, I say,
Speaker 1: if another country treated our citizens the way we treat
Speaker 1: our citizens. We'd invade them. We'd be like, listen, motherfuckers,
Speaker 1: we're coming at We got tanks, we got planes.
Speaker 4: Look, no, no, no, they are so so taking consideration. They
Speaker 4: are invading us. They are doing it so right now
Speaker 4: in the local the police department. They got tanks. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: you're in the local to the police department. They do
Speaker 4: all of those things. So they are they are raiding us, however,
Speaker 4: but who they are rating. They are raiding the inner city.
Speaker 4: And they're raiding the inner city for black bodies and
Speaker 4: bodies of color, and they putting them in prison for
Speaker 4: long periods of time.
Speaker 6: So you know, they you know, let's not they're doing it.
Speaker 1: It's a war on the poor.
Speaker 6: Yes, they're doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no question. But let's go back to that,
Speaker 1: because I think anyone would say if I was in
Speaker 1: that situation that you found yourself in, not even like
Speaker 1: fifteen of life, like life, natural life, your sendence to life,
Speaker 1: Society said here's what You're going to die in prison?
Speaker 1: Bye bye. Nobody cares about you. You're gone, right, and
Speaker 1: you have no resource at your disposal. It's not like
Speaker 1: you have a rich uncle who's like, I'm gonna hire
Speaker 1: the best, you know, like, I'm gonna go get you
Speaker 1: know whoever it is, the top defense attorneys. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: get a squad out there. You know you don't have
Speaker 1: money to hire a private investigator to uncover this. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say a nice word, malfeasans. This this corruption,
Speaker 1: this this you know, this frame job that was perpetrated
Speaker 1: on you. So where did you find the strength to say,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to give up. I'm going to find
Speaker 1: a way out of what is it? An impossible situation?
Speaker 6: I gave up on myself.
Speaker 1: You gave up on yourself? What do you mean?
Speaker 4: I gave up with myself and I relied on the creator.
Speaker 4: So you found faith wasn't found. Faith didn't have to
Speaker 4: find it. I just had to give up the you
Speaker 4: that everyone else has seen and enjoy to you that
Speaker 4: was always been in me, and that gave me the
Speaker 4: power to seahope so that I can go towards it.
Speaker 4: If you all know what's going on in here, you
Speaker 4: ain't tripping on nothing else. You too busy concerned about
Speaker 4: the attachments is around you.
Speaker 1: So how did how did you find it? When did
Speaker 1: you find it? Like you didn't you didn't go in
Speaker 1: as a man.
Speaker 6: No, no, no, absolutely.
Speaker 4: I found it when the judge called me down, when
Speaker 4: they called me down to the county jail, I was.
Speaker 4: I was sitting into the county jail facing life without
Speaker 4: the possibile parole. It was during that time because they
Speaker 4: called me down to the county and they told me
Speaker 4: that I was being charged with a murder, three attempted murders,
Speaker 4: with three attempt to robbers with special circus.
Speaker 6: I was like, what in the world is that. I'm like,
Speaker 6: are you sure you got the right CDC?
Speaker 4: And I'm booking number right there. I mean, like, my
Speaker 4: last three is six seven six? Is that six seven six?
Speaker 4: He said, yeah. So I found it the day the
Speaker 4: judge told me because I was facing the death penty
Speaker 4: initial that I was facing the death penty and I'm like,
Speaker 4: and I know that I didn't do it, and I'm
Speaker 4: facing the death penalty on this side of the gate,
Speaker 4: and on this side of the gate, I'm looking at
Speaker 4: life about the possible parole.
Speaker 6: So I didn't find anything.
Speaker 4: That stuff kind of sport it just you know, that's
Speaker 4: that that's that I think that's what them Buddha's doing
Speaker 4: them is in when they're going that thing and they
Speaker 4: sit in the cave for a little while and they
Speaker 4: trying to find some kind of enlightenment and they get
Speaker 4: that boom. Sometimes people happen, they get that boom when
Speaker 4: they get traumatized because they get hit boll card, they're
Speaker 4: in an accident, they.
Speaker 6: Get that boom. They see the light.
Speaker 4: Well, I did get hit Bob back truck didn't hit
Speaker 4: me physically, but as you see today, it wregged me
Speaker 4: on his side, crushed every inch of my spirit.
Speaker 1: But I rebuilded it though, So you didn't. It's amazing
Speaker 1: to see you because honestly, and again we're here in person.
Speaker 1: You're out there listening to his voice, but just running
Speaker 1: into in the hallways here and stuff. I mean, you
Speaker 1: got to smile. That lights up the room. Obi's here
Speaker 1: with his wife who looks like a movie star, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, and like it's thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean. So, so, somehow or other, you did prevail. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: your conviction was overturned, right, justice was finally done. Seventeen
Speaker 1: years later you walked out into society a free man,
Speaker 1: but you still had to rebuild. How did you get
Speaker 1: from that to this where you look like a I
Speaker 1: mean you look.
Speaker 4: Like thank you, man, thank you for me saying I
Speaker 4: got right there, Because again, it's about perception, how you
Speaker 4: see things.
Speaker 6: The way I took it in and the way that
Speaker 6: I took my generation in.
Speaker 4: It wasn't that if justice had finally came and then
Speaker 4: it was that it had done. No, it was just
Speaker 4: justice had just begun. And so I was born in
Speaker 4: that instance, and it gave me a sense of renewing, like, man,
Speaker 4: I can do this, I can do that.
Speaker 6: Knucket, Like why am I gonna be?
Speaker 4: Why am I upset with you about this crazy stuff
Speaker 4: over here when I got the opportunity to use that
Speaker 4: same energy to be happy in love and kind of
Speaker 4: like get you figured in places like that, you don't
Speaker 4: waste your time on nonsense.
Speaker 6: Happy times now, Happy time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You came out in twenty eleven, about five and
Speaker 1: a half years ago. Yes, and now you're here in
Speaker 1: San Diego. The future looks looks good. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: there's still well the scars are not going to heal
Speaker 1: in five years, are not going to heal in fifteen years.
Speaker 1: But you're like extremely optimistic and energetic individual. Anybody who
Speaker 1: bumps into you with the lobby's going to pick up
Speaker 1: on that, and it's inspiring to everybody that's here to
Speaker 1: see you up on stage last night dancing with other
Speaker 1: gunner's or whatever it might be. And it does I
Speaker 1: hope you know that it has a real impact not
Speaker 1: only on your peers, but also on all of those
Speaker 1: of us who are in the movement who come out
Speaker 1: of this meeting you and wanting to go do more
Speaker 1: and devote more time and more energy and more resources
Speaker 1: to fight this fight and fix the system so that
Speaker 1: the next OBI never has to go through what you
Speaker 1: went through. And now you're here as an example of
Speaker 1: what's possible. If you could share what you've learned and
Speaker 1: what you want people to understand about you, what would
Speaker 1: it be.
Speaker 4: It's a major difference in believing and knowing transition. That
Speaker 4: stage is life. The living is in the know. You
Speaker 4: live through the know. You survive through the opposite. You
Speaker 4: survived through that. You survive through your belief because it
Speaker 4: gets pushed upon constantly, so you survive and you have
Speaker 4: to tolerate, and you do those things. But when you
Speaker 4: transition to the note, you live in it and you
Speaker 4: exercise the right of the fact of the note.
Speaker 6: And that's what I want people to take.
Speaker 4: I say, all the time I go around, I get
Speaker 4: a chance to talk at you know, colleges and university,
Speaker 4: and I speak at high schools and I talk to kids,
Speaker 4: and that first thing, I'll say, what's two plus two?
Speaker 4: They say four? I said, you know that, don't you?
Speaker 4: I say yeah. I say, well, who do you believe in?
Speaker 4: They say this? I say, why, you just told me
Speaker 4: two plus two is four? So why are you believing
Speaker 4: this and not knowing it?
Speaker 6: You must know that which you say is yours.
Speaker 4: I can't say I believe in our marriage and the
Speaker 4: sanctity of our marriage and not know the person that
Speaker 4: I'm saying that I believe that, so I have to know.
Speaker 4: So it's a transition, and that's why I want people
Speaker 4: to walk away with this transition over to the no.
Speaker 6: Exercise the right to believe, but say that that my
Speaker 6: worth is better.
Speaker 4: Than that, and my no solidifies me and I move
Speaker 4: forward towards my objectives, towards my accomplishments. Because of my no,
Speaker 4: my belief puts me in a want sort of scenario.
Speaker 4: It makes me want things because of what I believe.
Speaker 6: So take that.
Speaker 1: So it's it's really the power of knowing, I guess.
Speaker 4: And that's why the innocence come home because they knew
Speaker 4: they're innocent. They knew that they would come home. They
Speaker 4: didn't want to come home. So I want to go home.
Speaker 4: I want to go home. No, they say I'm going home.
Speaker 4: I'm innocent.
Speaker 1: That's a powerful message. And think that we can all
Speaker 1: learn from that, and I'm going to have to really
Speaker 1: process that. It's interesting because I've never heard it phrased
Speaker 1: in that way. And you know, I've listened and I've
Speaker 1: learned from so many incredible people, so many spiritual people
Speaker 1: who've been through ordeals like what you've been through, people
Speaker 1: from all walks of life. But I've never heard anybody
Speaker 1: put it that way. And I think that, Like I said,
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you shared that. So I'm glad
Speaker 1: you're here in San Diego. I'm glad to be here
Speaker 1: with you. It's a beautiful day.
Speaker 6: Thank you. Can we get a shout out to exonerated nation?
Speaker 1: Exonerated nation?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to do? You want
Speaker 1: to plug you any social media or any other projects
Speaker 1: that you're working on, Like the.
Speaker 4: Only project that I'm working on right now is Exonerating Nation.
Speaker 6: The other project is a personal.
Speaker 4: Project, personal project, but my public project is Exonerated Nation,
Speaker 4: and that's what I'm doing right now. So I just
Speaker 4: want to give a shout out to Exonerating Nation and
Speaker 4: all those potential or desired supporters.
Speaker 1: And how did people if they want to learn more
Speaker 1: about Exonerated Nation A.
Speaker 4: Couple of different ways. So I do have a website.
Speaker 4: It's called it Exonerated Nation. You can look it up
Speaker 4: online as a website. Also have a Facebook page that
Speaker 4: you can also go.
Speaker 1: On Exonerate Nation dot com.
Speaker 4: Yeah, dot com, you can go on there. I employ
Speaker 4: people to follow and those things. But the only reason
Speaker 4: why I asked you to follow is because.
Speaker 6: I need you to work. You're following with no actions
Speaker 6: doesn't help.
Speaker 4: I need follow me so that we can dig this
Speaker 4: ground and submit in justice as it's supposed to.
Speaker 6: You're following its action.
Speaker 4: It's not a metaphorical situation to say I'm following them.
Speaker 4: Oh no, So what do you mean you're following them?
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 6: What kind of following are you stalking?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 6: No, I think kind of following.
Speaker 4: What you need you need to describe and when you
Speaker 4: describe you're following.
Speaker 6: You want to describe a.
Speaker 4: Support I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing this,
Speaker 4: and I'm doing that.
Speaker 1: Well, you gotta first learn and get involved. And the
Speaker 1: good news is I think we're because of what's going
Speaker 1: on in this country right now in the world, when
Speaker 1: what I call the new Age of activism, I think
Speaker 1: there's more people than ever that want to get involved.
Speaker 1: They want to learn from people like you. They want
Speaker 1: to help prevent injustice and fight against this crazy situation
Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in, not just in the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system, but in general and make this world a
Speaker 1: better place. And you're doing an incredible job, and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate you sharing your experienced strength and hope with
Speaker 1: our listening audience, and I know it is going to
Speaker 1: have an impact on many of them. So I hope
Speaker 1: that makes you feel good, because.
Speaker 4: It does, and I thank you for the opportunity, and
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause. And helping
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
Speaker 1: orgorg to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one