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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice that made as a free man. A year later,

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Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 4: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 4: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 5: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 5: might have to play in my hanging.

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Speaker 6: They had been told that two.

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Speaker 3: Prison officers would have to participate in my execution.

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Speaker 6: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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Speaker 6: all help broke loose.

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Speaker 1: But Welcome to another episode of Ronful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 1: This is part two of the San Diego series, where

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Speaker 1: we'll be doing shorter interviews than usual because we have

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Speaker 1: so many incredible people here at the Ennisis Network conference. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'll be interviewing Christine Bunch and Ob Anthony.

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Speaker 5: The tragedy for Christine Bunch began in nineteen ninety five

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Speaker 5: when a fire in this Greensburg mobile home killed her

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Speaker 5: three year old son.

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Speaker 3: The mother who spent nearly seventeen years in prison for

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Speaker 3: arson and murder after state fire investigators hit evidence.

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Speaker 2: That could have cleared her, Christine Bunch has maintained her

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Speaker 2: innocence all.

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Speaker 3: Along years of anguish for a crime she says she

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Speaker 3: did not commit.

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Speaker 5: Now over all charges were eventually dropped against Christine Bunch

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Speaker 5: after the original report surface.

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Speaker 1: And Indiana mother who spent sixteen years in prison in

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Speaker 1: the killing of her young son is free tonight after

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Speaker 1: charges against her are dropped. Christine, welcome, Thank you. We

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Speaker 1: are in the Sunshine in San Diego where we are

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Speaker 1: broadcasting from the Innocence Network, which is a conference where

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Speaker 1: we bring together this year. I think we have two

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Speaker 1: hundred dexonrees. Yes, we do, with people from the movement,

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Speaker 1: social workers, attorneys, counselors, teachers, law students, law students, press.

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Speaker 1: It's really it's I mean, the amount of positive energy

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Speaker 1: that's being generated here this weekend is remarkable. Wouldn't you say.

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Speaker 2: It's incredible and you can kizz.

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Speaker 1: And you are right in the middle of it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know your energy is so incredible. So Christine was

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted in one of the worst possible scenarios, which

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Speaker 1: is that she lost her child. Her three year old son, Anthony,

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Speaker 1: was killed in a fire in your home. And we

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Speaker 1: know now, and I think they knew then that the

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Speaker 1: arson science is not really science. Not only did they

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Speaker 1: know that, but also they really knew that this was

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Speaker 1: not arson. Why they felt they wanted to go after

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Speaker 1: you in the way they did, I don't know they

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Speaker 1: will ever understand, because it's like trying to understand evil.

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Speaker 1: But one way or another, you were wrongfully convicted. And

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Speaker 1: this Innocent Network conference is about overcoming and triumphing, and

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Speaker 1: you are certainly a great example of that. First, let's

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Speaker 1: go back to that awful time and just give the

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Speaker 1: audience a sense of what was going on. You were

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Speaker 1: very young at the time, right.

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Speaker 5: I was twenty one and a single mother, working, going

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Speaker 5: to school, and I had my three year old, and

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Speaker 5: so my life was just busy and full.

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Speaker 2: And one morning I woke up.

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Speaker 5: And was surprised because I thought it was foggy in

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Speaker 5: the house, and in truth, it was on fire. And

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Speaker 5: it takes a minute for your brain to realize what's

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Speaker 5: happening what you're doing in that moment, because you're just

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Speaker 5: frozen with fear, and it's like your mind goes blank.

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Speaker 5: And then it's like you're running through mud trying to

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Speaker 5: figure out what do I do? And I'm throwing things

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Speaker 5: on it because you always hear in school, but we

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Speaker 5: don't realize that the materials we use now are synthetics

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Speaker 5: and they just melt. They don't smother it. It's burning

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Speaker 5: in your hands. So I ran out the door to

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Speaker 5: get help and fed the fire. When I went out,

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Speaker 5: oxygen came in and made it even bigger. But you're

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Speaker 5: just panicked, thinking I've got to get in there.

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Speaker 2: I've got to do something.

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Speaker 5: So then I broke a window with his tricycle and

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Speaker 5: tried to climb in, and by that time the flames

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Speaker 5: were coming through the roof. They took me to the hospital,

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Speaker 5: and of course I'm asking did you find him? Because

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Speaker 5: I couldn't find him. It never occurred to me that

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Speaker 5: he wasn't coming out alive. And that simple statement was

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Speaker 5: used against me at my trial because I asked, did

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Speaker 5: you find him? Like they said, I knew he was

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Speaker 5: already dead, but you just don't think that things will

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Speaker 5: happen to you like that.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing in the phrase did you find him that

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Speaker 1: says to me, did you find a dead body? I

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Speaker 1: mean exactly. They twist these things in so many ways,

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Speaker 1: and it's so weird too. I Mean we see over

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Speaker 1: and over again in wrongful conviction cases, especially cases like yours,

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Speaker 1: where they say, well, you didn't react the way we

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Speaker 1: think you should have. You were too upset, you weren't

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Speaker 1: upset enough. I mean, how is anyone supposed to know

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Speaker 1: how you're going to react. Everyone reacts differently in all

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Speaker 1: types of panic situations. Right, this is beyond pattered, This

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Speaker 1: is terror, This is sheer terror. You've almost lost your

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Speaker 1: life in the process of losing your son you don't

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Speaker 1: even know, and your home and you just woke up

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Speaker 1: and add that type of thing that people most people,

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Speaker 1: they just wake up. They don't even know what to do.

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Speaker 1: They stumble arounds looking for the coffee machine. Right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: here you are just waking up and the house is

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Speaker 1: on fire, and everything that you're trying to do to

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Speaker 1: help is backfiring, right exactly, because because who the hell

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Speaker 1: would know, right? I mean, yeah, they teach us a

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Speaker 1: little bit in school, right, throw a thing on it.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, it's not like you took fire. You

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Speaker 1: weren't a volunteer firefighter or anything like that. Right, So

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Speaker 1: now the sort of witch hunt or whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to call it starts. They decide that this is something

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Speaker 1: they want to pursue. They're going to get this. Mom,

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Speaker 1: you go to trial, did you think that you were

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Speaker 1: going to be vindicated? Do you think that it was curtains?

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Speaker 1: I mean, they had these arson investigators and all these

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Speaker 1: supposed experts saying all this stuff about these accelerants, which

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Speaker 1: we now know not only isn't a real science but

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Speaker 1: also wasn't true. But exactly what were you thinking? You're

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Speaker 1: just a kid and indicator Indiana, right.

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Speaker 5: Right, I mean you're always taught the police or your

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Speaker 5: friends they're going to find out the truth. You know,

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Speaker 5: they would never do anything wrong. So I went to

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Speaker 5: court thinking I'm going to go home, They're going to

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Speaker 5: see the truth.

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Speaker 2: They're going to see me that I didn't do this.

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Speaker 5: And then when they said guilty, I was just in shock.

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Speaker 2: I just blanked.

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Speaker 5: Everybody's trying to ask me questions on the way out

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Speaker 5: going to the police station, and I mean, I'm still

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Speaker 5: registering what they just said to me, let alone trying

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Speaker 5: to answer your question.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just looking at them and it's just a blur.

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Speaker 1: Right, And this is in Christine. This is what we

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Speaker 1: see on TV all the time, right, the people that's

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Speaker 1: at the cameras, the reporter's yelling yes, yeah, they're all

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Speaker 1: and now they're all part of this mob mentality. Right,

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Speaker 1: You're stuck in a nightmare that would be unimaginable to

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Speaker 1: anyone who hasn't been through a day. Then you're sent

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Speaker 1: to prison, sentenced to I.

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Speaker 5: Was sentenced to sixty years for murder, fifty for arson,

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Speaker 5: and they ran them concurrently, so it was just the

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Speaker 5: sixty years.

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Speaker 1: Just sixty, just sixty, right, and you were twenty one,

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Speaker 1: so had eighty one you would have come out on

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Speaker 1: your walker and maybe maybe if you were prolled. So

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Speaker 1: you go to prison and.

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Speaker 2: Go to prison, and now you're pregnant. I am pregnant.

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Speaker 5: I was released on bond when it came back the

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Speaker 5: test results came back that it wasn't gasoline because they

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Speaker 5: thought I'd use gasoline to set the fire. So when

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Speaker 5: those results came back negative for gasoline, my judge put

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Speaker 5: me out on bond.

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Speaker 1: I would have seemed like an appropriate time to drop

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Speaker 1: the charges, but they decided to put you out on bond.

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Speaker 2: They put me out on bond, and.

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Speaker 5: I feel like it wasn't the best thing, but the

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Speaker 5: best thing came out of it, because when I came out,

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Speaker 5: I was doing all the wrong things. I was taking

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Speaker 5: whatever anybody gave me. I was drinking. I honestly didn't

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Speaker 5: care if I woke up. I lost everything. I mean,

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Speaker 5: finding out I was pregnant with Tony changed my life,

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Speaker 5: and I changed my life to take care of my

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Speaker 5: son and give him everything that I.

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Speaker 2: Could give him.

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Speaker 5: And when I lost him, I didn't want to live.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to be numb. I didn't want to feel,

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Speaker 5: and so I was very reckless. And I met a

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Speaker 5: guy and spent some time with him, and he was

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Speaker 5: feeding me whatever.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be numb.

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Speaker 5: And then I started getting really sick and found out

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Speaker 5: that I was pregnant, and I didn't think that I

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Speaker 5: could have anymore. So that was kind of my miracle moment,

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Speaker 5: and I changed everything and started focusing on fighting because

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Speaker 5: I had a son to fight for.

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Speaker 2: I had something to live for at that moment.

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Speaker 1: And this is a really I think interesting part of

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Speaker 1: the story in that you gave birth in prison. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And as we spoke about before, there's different protocols in

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Speaker 1: different places in the country, in the world. There's no

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Speaker 1: good answer for how do you deal with a baby

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Speaker 1: in prison and having a child yanked away, whether it's

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Speaker 1: on twenty four hours in as what happened to you, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or three years later like those that last period of

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Speaker 1: time like counting down the minutes or the second I

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Speaker 1: can't even imagine. It's just so horrible. But in Indiana,

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Speaker 1: their policy was twenty four hours and then kid goodbye.

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Speaker 5: Yes, you're going back to the facility and the baby's

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Speaker 5: going home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: My family took my son and they had him right

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Speaker 5: over to the prison because I passed them on my

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Speaker 5: way back out to be transferred to the facility, and

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Speaker 5: both of us weren't supposed to be released until the

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Speaker 5: next day. So I passed my dad and I'm I'm

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Speaker 5: sobbing and telling him, don't leave my baby here.

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Speaker 2: I can't lose another baby. You got to get my baby.

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Speaker 5: So the doctor that actually delivered him helped my family

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Speaker 5: to get a car seat and blankets so they could

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Speaker 5: take him right then because they had everything for the

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Speaker 5: next day, and then he brought him straight over to

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Speaker 5: the prison so that I would know that they had him,

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Speaker 5: and I did have to worry.

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Speaker 1: That was at least a small blessing that you were

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Speaker 1: able to have family and know that your baby son

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Speaker 1: was going to be taken care of and protected and loved,

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Speaker 1: and you got to have visitation with him ten hours

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Speaker 1: a month. Was that how it worked out?

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Speaker 5: You get ten hours a month in the regular visiting

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Speaker 5: room where you can't really do anything. You have to

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Speaker 5: be sitting in a chair, so I could hold him

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Speaker 5: on my lap, But it took a while for us

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Speaker 5: to change the policy where I could get on the

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Speaker 5: floor and do blocks with him on the table or cars.

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Speaker 5: But when I first got there, you sat in the chair.

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Speaker 5: Your family went and got chips or a coke for you.

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Speaker 5: You couldn't move, and if he needed something like its

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Speaker 5: diaper changed or to be fed, my family would have

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Speaker 5: to get up and go out into the outer court

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Speaker 5: and take care of that there.

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Speaker 2: That couldn't be done in the visiting room.

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Speaker 5: So I didn't really have any hands on until six

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Speaker 5: months in when they opened the Family Present program and

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Speaker 5: our children could come in for one on one visits

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Speaker 5: with us, and so then I got an extra ten

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Speaker 5: hours a month just for him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and that's something I want to highlight is

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Speaker 1: that these programs in the prisons that provide a little

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Speaker 1: glimpse of humanity in an otherwise cold and cruel and

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Speaker 1: purely punitive system that we have here is so important.

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Speaker 1: And in your case, I can see you lighting up

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Speaker 1: talking about it. I mean, what a difference that makes,

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Speaker 1: you know, so, and obviously what a difference it did make,

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Speaker 1: and so ultimately your case was overturned. It was sixteen

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Speaker 1: years later. Yes, let's just talk for a moment about

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Speaker 1: what that was like, vindication, freedom, I mean.

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Speaker 5: Just the new evidence that came out in the case.

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Speaker 5: You know, my son reached an eighty percent carbon monoxide

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Speaker 5: level that was new fire science from a forensic toxicologist.

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Speaker 5: And hearing her say that I was in the very

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Speaker 5: next room and was probably half of that level and hallucinating.

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Speaker 5: Everything's blurry, everything's slow, you're sluggish. I mean that made

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Speaker 5: me feel better because you always think you can do more.

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Speaker 2: And then finding out they falsified an ATF.

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Speaker 5: Re board that right there, that was vindication for me,

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Speaker 5: if I'd never walked out, at least I knew that

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Speaker 5: it wasn't it wasn't an arson, he wasn't murdered. It

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Speaker 5: was just an accident, and that I think was the

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Speaker 5: best moment. Walking out was good, but it's scary, and I.

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Speaker 1: Want to talk about that. And the Center for Wronful

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Speaker 1: Convictions played a big role in your exoneration, so I

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Speaker 1: want to give them respect and from both of us

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Speaker 1: because without them you wouldn't be here. And your advocate

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Speaker 1: was Betsy Marx right as well. So there's a number

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Speaker 1: of heroes in this situation, and ultimately you walked out,

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Speaker 1: and that's what I really want to focus on. Because

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Speaker 1: we're here at the Innocence Network conference and watching people

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Speaker 1: heal and recover and transform themselves. It's such a powerful thing.

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Speaker 1: Every time I see it, it just makes me want

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Speaker 1: to do more and more and everything I can to

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Speaker 1: help and promote this work. So when you get out,

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Speaker 1: then what sixteen years a long time?

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Speaker 2: Yes, very long time.

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Speaker 1: So what were the things like, how did where did

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Speaker 1: you go? How did you reconnect? And what could we

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Speaker 1: as a society do differently to help others who are

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Speaker 1: coming out after this type of ordeal.

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Speaker 5: I think it's important for people to know that you

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Speaker 5: don't have to give a whole lot out of your

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Speaker 5: wallet to make a difference for us, if we just had.

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Speaker 2: People that would give us time.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I didn't know, and it was like the

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Speaker 5: most embarrassing thing for me. I'm thirty nine years old.

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Speaker 5: It took me ten minutes to get out of the

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Speaker 5: bathroom because they had removed the knobs on the water

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Speaker 5: faucets and I didn't know how to turn it on.

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Speaker 5: I just thankfully finally flicked something automatic.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so I still have trouble with that.

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Speaker 5: It came on and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 5: and I'm in tears by the time I come out,

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Speaker 5: and there's my brother saying, what's wrong?

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Speaker 2: Are you sick? Is there a problem? I said, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know how to turn.

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Speaker 5: On the water, And so things like that make me

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Speaker 5: want to stay at home because I don't want to

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Speaker 5: go out and be embarrassed and tell people I don't

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Speaker 5: know how to do this. I was waiting for a

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Speaker 5: full service gas station and we don't have those anymore.

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Speaker 5: So things that I've never learned how to do, like

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Speaker 5: change my oil or check my entire pressure. I now

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Speaker 5: have to go find somebody to do that, because I

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Speaker 5: can't just pull up and say fill it up, and

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Speaker 5: can you check everything?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember what time you were actually released?

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Speaker 2: I want to say it's four or five in the afternoon, and.

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Speaker 1: What did you do? Where'd you go?

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Speaker 5: So first we went, I didn't talk to any of

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Speaker 5: those reporters that called me a baby killer, and I

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Speaker 5: gave one interview with Sandra Chapman because she had interviewed

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Speaker 5: me in the prison and helped push my case forward,

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Speaker 5: so she was the only exclusive.

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Speaker 2: That I gave.

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Speaker 5: And we went to a park and I got to

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Speaker 5: walk in the grass barefoot, and we had a nice

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Speaker 5: time there. And then we went over to Bistro three

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Speaker 5: ten and I had champagne with my attorneys, and they

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Speaker 5: made me some scallops because seafood was my favorite. They

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Speaker 5: asked what kind of food I wanted. I said colorful,

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Speaker 5: and she said, what do you mean? And I said

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Speaker 5: everything in there is kind.

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Speaker 2: Of brown and gray and it's just not pretty.

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Speaker 5: I said, I want to eat vegetables that are colored

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Speaker 5: and nice, and cheese and different kinds of things. So

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Speaker 5: they set me up with hummus and peda and the

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Speaker 5: color not.

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Speaker 2: All of it. There was a spicy that was kind

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Speaker 2: of red, and I.

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Speaker 1: Would have gotten a strawberry or maybe like.

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Speaker 5: I had that for dessert, I had a whole plate

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Speaker 5: of different fruits and cream cheese dip and then whipped

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Speaker 5: cream up.

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Speaker 2: Was incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds incredible. And then you went where.

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Speaker 5: Then I went to my mother's house where my son

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Speaker 5: was staying, and I was upmost the night because I'd

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Speaker 5: never gotten to see my baby sleep.

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Speaker 1: That's an incredible visual. And I see you tearing up.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying not to myself. And now you

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Speaker 1: watch them sleep, you get up the next day. Is

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Speaker 1: it starting to feel real? At that point?

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Speaker 5: It's feeling real? It's also feeling frightening. I mean, the

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Speaker 5: only thing I have is my literally my prison uniform

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Speaker 5: and white white tennis shoes in a bag. I had

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Speaker 5: no clothes, I have no hygiens. I don't have a toothbrush,

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Speaker 5: and I'm thinking, I have no money. How am I

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Speaker 5: supposed to get these things? I have no vehicle, how

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Speaker 5: am I supposed to get around? And thank goodness, I

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Speaker 5: mean three o'clock in the afternoon, when my brother got

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Speaker 5: off of work. He came in, picked me up, and

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Speaker 5: we went out to eat, and I literally again had

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Speaker 5: no idea what to order.

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Speaker 2: Decisions are so real hard because for.

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Speaker 5: So long I haven't made any and I'm trying to

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Speaker 5: branch out and get better.

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Speaker 2: With that, but it's still it's still an issue that

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Speaker 2: I go through.

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Speaker 5: So we ate and I had a peach frozen margarita

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Speaker 5: and a steak, and then he took me shopping, and

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Speaker 5: so we went into this clothing store and there's all

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Speaker 5: these colors and he's like, what do you want.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've had nothing but.

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Speaker 5: White and khaki. I have no idea, and so my

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Speaker 5: eyes bug out and he was like, okay, he said,

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Speaker 5: you go in the fitting room. I'm going to bring

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Speaker 5: you outfits. So he brought me back outfits and the

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Speaker 5: things that I put on and said this fits good, and.

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Speaker 2: I like this.

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Speaker 5: They went into the keep pile and everything else went back.

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Speaker 5: And then when we left there, he took me to

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Speaker 5: an old fashioned candy store and got me some candy

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Speaker 5: that we had when we were kids. And then we

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Speaker 5: went to a wine store and I tasted some wine

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Speaker 5: and he picked up a couple bottles of.

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Speaker 2: That, and then we went to Walmart, and at.

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Speaker 5: That point, I'm like, wow, you know, I'm over the

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Speaker 5: moon with everything I'm seeing. And Walmart's now Super Walmart.

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Speaker 5: And we go to pick out shampoo and he's like,

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Speaker 5: what do you want? Well, I've only had two choices

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Speaker 5: and there's a whole aisle.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea. So here's my brother and we're

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Speaker 2: smelling them up and down the aisle. He said, we'll

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Speaker 2: just pick what smells good. So we went through and

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Speaker 2: we found something that I liked.

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Speaker 5: And so by the time we get through there and

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Speaker 5: I'm like, you know, I need some feminine products. There's

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Speaker 5: a whole isle of that, and he's like, what do

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Speaker 5: you want. Well, I've only had one sixteen years and

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Speaker 5: I don't know. And at this point I'm I'm done.

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Speaker 5: I'm wiped out. I can't speak, and here I start crying.

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Speaker 5: And so he looks at me and he was like,

385
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Speaker 5: it's okay. He said, my wife uses this, and he

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Speaker 5: puts it in the cart and he said and if

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Speaker 5: you don't like it, he said, we'll come back every

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Speaker 5: day until we find what works for you. And so

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Speaker 5: he took me to his house and I had wine

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Speaker 5: and he made me homemade guacamole, and I sat.

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Speaker 2: Visiting with him. Yes, it's colorful. And then I ended

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Speaker 2: up spending the night with him. And then the next day.

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Speaker 5: Is when he took me to the movie theater and

394
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Speaker 5: I couldn't turn on the water, so he.

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Speaker 2: Made it good.

396
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Speaker 5: And he's the one that between him and my son,

397
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Speaker 5: they kept me going out instead of hiding in the

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Speaker 5: house and not.

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Speaker 2: Dealing with people.

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Speaker 5: And they helped me get my license. I had to

401
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 5: have a learner's permit again. They taught me how to

402
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,360
Speaker 5: build up my credits, how to use the internet.

403
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Speaker 2: Social media awesome.

404
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Speaker 1: What is your social media? Do you want to plug

405
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 1: it on the podcast? Do you want more people to

406
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: follow you or are you more of a private kind

407
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Speaker 1: of person.

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00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 5: No, I mean people can follow me. I'm on Twitter, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: with Christine.

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Speaker 1: Bunch Christine Bunch kri is t I N E b

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Speaker 1: U nch on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And I do want to talk about your organization, Justice

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00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: for just Us. Yes, you had a wonderful support group,

415
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: which was your family, but many people have nothing exactly.

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00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 1: People learn for thirty years, they come out, they've got

417
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: nobody left. It's a catchy name, Justice for just Us

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00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: what's just us?

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Speaker 5: Just us is it's a combination. I have one Rivera

420
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Speaker 5: who's another ex honery. He spent twenty one years and

421
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 5: he is in Illinois. I'm in Indiana, and we decided

422
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 5: we wanted to do something because people come out and

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Speaker 5: they have no one. You spend forty years in there,

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Speaker 5: most of your families probably died, and there's no one

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Speaker 5: to meet you. There's no one to take you out

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Speaker 5: shopping and do the things that my brother did. So

427
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 5: we decided that it was up to us to bring

428
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Speaker 5: justice to other ex honeries. So we're getting ready to

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00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 5: put in for our non for profit that'll probably go

430
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Speaker 5: in a couple of weeks, and our hope is that

431
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 5: we can continue to train and hire other exoneries in

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Speaker 5: their states and just make our community aware of what

433
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Speaker 5: people need when they walk out, how they can help.

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Speaker 2: Everybody can help.

435
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 5: If you have a barber shop, give an exonery a haircut,

436
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 5: If you have a clothing shop, give them a new

437
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 5: outfit so they can go get do an interview.

438
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: So we hope that we can just keep.

439
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 5: Educating through our speaking events and bring people in to help.

440
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 5: And even if you give a gift card of twenty dollars.

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00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 5: That's a shirt for someone. Sure, that's something easy. You

442
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 5: don't have to donate thousands of dollars to make a difference,

443
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 5: just taking someone on the bus.

444
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: Many people listening probably saying, well, but I don't know

445
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: how to find that person, So I mean, would you

446
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: recommend they go to an Innocence project website, maybe a

447
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: local innocence project website, or because they are innstance projects

448
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: all around the country.

449
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you can go to any of the NISNCE Projects

450
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 5: websites and find ways that you can volunteer and help

451
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 5: and help with our exoneries. Our Facebook page is just

452
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 5: is iss four and it's the number just us.

453
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's just is justis the number four just

454
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: us on Facebook.

455
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 2: Oh we also have a website under that name as well.

456
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: Okay, good, so get involved. Christine Bunch has been our wonderful,

457
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: amazing guest today. Thank you. You can't see her smile,

458
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: but she has a magnetic smile and if you were

459
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: here with me, you would absolutely want to give her

460
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: a hug, which is exactly what I'm going to do

461
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: as soon as we get off the air. So thank

462
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: you Christine again for being here. And for sharing your experience,

463
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: strength and hope. And now let's get right into it

464
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: with the one and only Obie Anthony.

465
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 3: Anthony and Cole were convicted twenty years ago of a

466
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 3: shooting death in South.

467
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 6: LA back in nineteen ninety four.

468
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 4: Anthony's legal team says a pinpoint of the finger at

469
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 4: the two men.

470
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 3: They were released four years ago after a key witness

471
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 3: with Candida's testimony.

472
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 6: The pimp later Recanaida's story.

473
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 3: Their lawyers then found out an La Times reporter had

474
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 3: taken home shellcasings from the murder scene that could have

475
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: pointed to another suspect.

476
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 4: Prosecutors and police refused to admit that they did anything wrong.

477
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 2: In this case.

478
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 7: There was not one piece of physical evidence and that's

479
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 7: the key. That's what the police did wrong in this case.

480
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 7: They ignored the evidence of innocence and twisted the evidence

481
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 7: to point towards guilt because they wanted to clear a case.

482
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: The two detectives that helped put ob Anthony and his

483
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 3: co defended behind bars, one still works for the LAPD.

484
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 7: According to Obi Anthony's lawyers and the judge that exonerated him,

485
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 7: evidence showed they were never here the night of the killing.

486
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: Oh be welcome to the show.

487
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.

488
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: You were sentenced to life in prison.

489
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 6: Life without the positive parole.

490
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, life like the no joke version of life.

491
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, like some life life and like the one that

492
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 4: you know, we're not even talking about talking to you forever,

493
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 4: like it's no parole.

494
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: And you were framed.

495
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 4: I was actually framed by the detective Marcella Win. They

496
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 4: had information from the very onset that me and my

497
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 4: codyfriended at the time.

498
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 6: Reggie Cole wasn't involved. It was her.

499
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 4: Plus it was her Win on that end of the

500
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 4: bargain because she has in the law, in the eyes

501
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 4: of her co workers, are successful incarceration and now it's

502
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 4: just pending in a conviction. So it was her who

503
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: actually framed me.

504
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: And how did it come to be that you even

505
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: became a suspect in this because it's funny looking at

506
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: you now, I mean you can't see him on the radio,

507
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: but he's a very dapper individual, very good looking gentleman.

508
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, he's got his here at the at

509
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: the conference where everybody's kind of casual. He's got the

510
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: tie and the vest and the sharp looking shirt and everything.

511
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: So I mean, how did you get wrapped up in

512
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: this nightmare? What was it like for you? You were

513
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: you were just a young man trying to make it

514
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: in the world.

515
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 6: You know, I want to mislead your listeners.

516
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 4: I grew up in the inner city of Los Angeles, California,

517
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 4: South central.

518
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 6: I was involved in gangs.

519
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 4: But actually got me involved in this case here that

520
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 4: got me wrongfully convicted was because they allegedly got anonymous

521
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: call saying that a guy made a bad move.

522
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 6: On forty ninth Street and hung up the phone.

523
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 4: From that phone call, the young lady, Marcella Wynn, the

524
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 4: caller gave the name of Baby Day. She said that

525
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 4: she ran the name Baby Day through the gang database

526
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 4: and she she had hits with the name baby Day,

527
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 4: but it was multiple hits, and she determined that the

528
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 4: Baby Day that she was looking for was a guy

529
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 4: named Michael Miller out of all of those Baby Days.

530
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 4: And then come to find out he was incarcerated at

531
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 4: that time with me. And so that's how they got

532
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 4: their hands on my picture.

533
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: Well, and this was nineteen ninety four, and yeah, it

534
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: was a very violent time and they were interested in

535
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: processing these cases and closing them.

536
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, that time, you had a news reporter by

537
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: the name of Mama's Coren who was acting as a

538
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 4: follow alone reporter with the LAPD at that time, and

539
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 4: that's what he was writing in reporting on in nineteen

540
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 4: ninety for was the gang violence in south central Los

541
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 4: Angeles and a murder rate in which the Homicide division

542
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 4: and in other words, their cases and what they had.

543
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: And so he had the privilege at that point to

544
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 4: ride along with Marcelo Win and Pete Resistance, the detective

545
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 4: that was involved in my homicide case, which turned out

546
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 4: to be a plus because that reporter reported what he

547
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: seen as he seen it, while those investigative detectives that

548
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 4: work for the police department left out all of the

549
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 4: pertinent information which was pertinent to prove my innocence.

550
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 6: So it was it was, you know, it's amazing.

551
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this was well, it is common, Yes, I mean common.

552
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: I'm trying to even find the right word for it.

553
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: It's like it's pervasive. This kind of behavior among its criminal.

554
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: I'll call it criminal. It is criminal. It's criminal as

555
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: it is, as it is common, unfortunately, and the fact

556
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: is that it's hard for people to understand why and

557
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: how it goes so wrong when the people who we

558
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: pay to protect us, that protect and serve right go

559
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: on this rogue mission. And I know, you know they

560
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: say power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts, absolutely, and I

561
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: think they become desensitized to a certain extent when they're

562
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: dealing with one case after another, and it starts to

563
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: become like a just a system, and it becomes very

564
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: inconvenient when they start to realize that they got the

565
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: wrong guy, but they've already put the work in. But

566
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: it's weird that And I know it's got to be

567
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: weird from your perspective because you were in for what

568
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: seventeen years, correct, right, So how they could just so

569
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: callously literally throw somebody's life away because you're missing out

570
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: on I mean, seventeen years and you know, arguably those

571
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: could be the best seventeen years of your life.

572
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 4: Arguably, I mean, he taking consideration, I walked out of

573
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 4: the prison.

574
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 6: At the age of thirty seven.

575
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 4: I walked into the institution at the age of nineteen,

576
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 4: So you're right, my young adult life was the time

577
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 4: for me to have kids. Twenty one, twenty two, twenty three,

578
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 4: twenty four, twenty five, twenty six, I think for the

579
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 4: woman it cuts it off At twenty eight twenty.

580
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 6: Nine said something about the eggs. I don't know. I

581
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 6: don't know if they're true.

582
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: Or not, But at some point or another, you have

583
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 4: to realize and appreciate the fact that those same dilemmas

584
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 4: plague demand too. His count drops, and it drops even

585
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: more drastically because he's been affected by an institution who's

586
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 4: poisoning in him.

587
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 6: You got to take that in mind.

588
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: You have some of the most healthier specimens to walk

589
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 4: into institutions and come out ridd of with diseases and

590
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 4: plague with things. In other words, they can't get rid

591
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 4: of why because the medical program that they have inside

592
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: is designed to do just that break their body down,

593
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: and so they don't get the healthcare in which the

594
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 4: great public think that they're getting.

595
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: And that the public is paying for.

596
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

597
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess they keep that in mind. In other words, yeah,

598
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 4: keep that in mind that the public is paying for. Right,

599
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 4: So the public is contributing funds to this institution to

600
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 4: ke care of medically mentally these individuals who have been incarcerated.

601
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: But nevertheless those things are not happening. They're passing out

602
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 4: thor zene and cinequons as though it's Halloween and it

603
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: was candy for trigger treat and we know that thor

604
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 4: zene is a medication that they used to lobottomize people.

605
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we had Jason Baldwin on the show. He

606
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: was talking about the thor Zen Shuffle and how he

607
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: was avoiding that being placed in that situation at all costs,

608
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: even at his own extreme risk to his own personal safety,

609
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: because they offered to put him in there for his

610
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: own protection. He said, I'm not going to do that.

611
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely.

612
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: Reason why it is because he recognized that was part

613
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 4: of the mechanisms, in other words, to destroy his body

614
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 4: so his spirit wouldn't have the strength to fight to

615
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 4: get out. Got to fight to get your body right,

616
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: and then you fight for everything else.

617
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: Let me go back to this though, be because it's

618
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: always incredible to me the spirit of the people that

619
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: are in this building right now, right and you're one

620
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: of two hundred men and women who've been through these

621
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: unbelievable ordeals. How did you find the strength to continue

622
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: to fight? I mean you're just a young guy, a

623
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: young black guy in a system that's full of young

624
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: black guys, right, And I know and I know you're

625
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: focused on that and the disparity between how the justice

626
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: system treats white people and minorities, right, And it's an

627
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: American shame, But the.

628
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 6: An American tradition is American pleasure.

629
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: I mean, however, it's a shame for those individuals who

630
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 4: has to suffer, but for those individuals who inflict that

631
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 4: sufferers a pleasure in their desires.

632
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: I hate to think of.

633
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 6: It that way, but not what they're doing, and that's

634
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 6: what they've been doing.

635
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: And as not as though the resident people of somehow

636
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 4: another not even ignorant about those things. They just try

637
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 4: to fight against what they're doing, versus creating a situation.

638
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 6: To stop what they're doing. To totally to different kind

639
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 6: of thinking.

640
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: And it's crazy because we know that in the rest

641
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: of the civilized world, Western Europe and places like that,

642
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: they treat incarceration as rehabilitation. We treat it here as punishment.

643
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: It's and it's it just doesn't make any sense, you know.

644
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: I often say, like when I'm a politician or somebody

645
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: like that I'm talking to about these issues, I say,

646
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: if another country treated our citizens the way we treat

647
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: our citizens. We'd invade them. We'd be like, listen, motherfuckers,

648
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: we're coming at We got tanks, we got planes.

649
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: Look, no, no, no, they are so so taking consideration. They

650
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 4: are invading us. They are doing it so right now

651
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 4: in the local the police department. They got tanks. Yeah, yeah,

652
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 4: you're in the local to the police department. They do

653
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 4: all of those things. So they are they are raiding us, however,

654
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 4: but who they are rating. They are raiding the inner city.

655
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 4: And they're raiding the inner city for black bodies and

656
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 4: bodies of color, and they putting them in prison for

657
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 4: long periods of time.

658
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 6: So you know, they you know, let's not they're doing it.

659
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: It's a war on the poor.

660
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 6: Yes, they're doing it.

661
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no question. But let's go back to that,

662
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: because I think anyone would say if I was in

663
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: that situation that you found yourself in, not even like

664
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: fifteen of life, like life, natural life, your sendence to life,

665
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: Society said here's what You're going to die in prison?

666
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 1: Bye bye. Nobody cares about you. You're gone, right, and

667
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: you have no resource at your disposal. It's not like

668
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: you have a rich uncle who's like, I'm gonna hire

669
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: the best, you know, like, I'm gonna go get you

670
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: know whoever it is, the top defense attorneys. I'm gonna

671
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: get a squad out there. You know you don't have

672
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: money to hire a private investigator to uncover this. And

673
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say a nice word, malfeasans. This this corruption,

674
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: this this you know, this frame job that was perpetrated

675
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: on you. So where did you find the strength to say,

676
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to give up. I'm going to find

677
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: a way out of what is it? An impossible situation?

678
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 6: I gave up on myself.

679
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: You gave up on yourself? What do you mean?

680
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 4: I gave up with myself and I relied on the creator.

681
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: So you found faith wasn't found. Faith didn't have to

682
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: find it. I just had to give up the you

683
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 4: that everyone else has seen and enjoy to you that

684
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 4: was always been in me, and that gave me the

685
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 4: power to seahope so that I can go towards it.

686
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 4: If you all know what's going on in here, you

687
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 4: ain't tripping on nothing else. You too busy concerned about

688
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 4: the attachments is around you.

689
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: So how did how did you find it? When did

690
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: you find it? Like you didn't you didn't go in

691
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: as a man.

692
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 6: No, no, no, absolutely.

693
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 4: I found it when the judge called me down, when

694
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 4: they called me down to the county jail, I was.

695
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 4: I was sitting into the county jail facing life without

696
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 4: the possibile parole. It was during that time because they

697
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 4: called me down to the county and they told me

698
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 4: that I was being charged with a murder, three attempted murders,

699
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 4: with three attempt to robbers with special circus.

700
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 6: I was like, what in the world is that. I'm like,

701
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 6: are you sure you got the right CDC?

702
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 4: And I'm booking number right there. I mean, like, my

703
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 4: last three is six seven six? Is that six seven six?

704
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 4: He said, yeah. So I found it the day the

705
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 4: judge told me because I was facing the death penty

706
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 4: initial that I was facing the death penty and I'm like,

707
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 4: and I know that I didn't do it, and I'm

708
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 4: facing the death penalty on this side of the gate,

709
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 4: and on this side of the gate, I'm looking at

710
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 4: life about the possible parole.

711
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 6: So I didn't find anything.

712
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 4: That stuff kind of sport it just you know, that's

713
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 4: that that's that I think that's what them Buddha's doing

714
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: them is in when they're going that thing and they

715
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 4: sit in the cave for a little while and they

716
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: trying to find some kind of enlightenment and they get

717
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 4: that boom. Sometimes people happen, they get that boom when

718
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 4: they get traumatized because they get hit boll card, they're

719
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 4: in an accident, they.

720
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 6: Get that boom. They see the light.

721
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 4: Well, I did get hit Bob back truck didn't hit

722
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 4: me physically, but as you see today, it wregged me

723
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 4: on his side, crushed every inch of my spirit.

724
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: But I rebuilded it though, So you didn't. It's amazing

725
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: to see you because honestly, and again we're here in person.

726
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: You're out there listening to his voice, but just running

727
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: into in the hallways here and stuff. I mean, you

728
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: got to smile. That lights up the room. Obi's here

729
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: with his wife who looks like a movie star, you

730
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 1: know what I mean, and like it's thank you. Yeah.

731
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean. So, so, somehow or other, you did prevail. Ultimately,

732
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: your conviction was overturned, right, justice was finally done. Seventeen

733
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: years later you walked out into society a free man,

734
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: but you still had to rebuild. How did you get

735
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: from that to this where you look like a I

736
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: mean you look.

737
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 4: Like thank you, man, thank you for me saying I

738
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 4: got right there, Because again, it's about perception, how you

739
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 4: see things.

740
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 6: The way I took it in and the way that

741
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 6: I took my generation in.

742
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 4: It wasn't that if justice had finally came and then

743
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: it was that it had done. No, it was just

744
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 4: justice had just begun. And so I was born in

745
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: that instance, and it gave me a sense of renewing, like, man,

746
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 4: I can do this, I can do that.

747
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 6: Knucket, Like why am I gonna be?

748
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 4: Why am I upset with you about this crazy stuff

749
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: over here when I got the opportunity to use that

750
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: same energy to be happy in love and kind of

751
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 4: like get you figured in places like that, you don't

752
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 4: waste your time on nonsense.

753
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 6: Happy times now, Happy time.

754
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. You came out in twenty eleven, about five and

755
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: a half years ago. Yes, and now you're here in

756
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: San Diego. The future looks looks good. I mean, obviously

757
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: there's still well the scars are not going to heal

758
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: in five years, are not going to heal in fifteen years.

759
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: But you're like extremely optimistic and energetic individual. Anybody who

760
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: bumps into you with the lobby's going to pick up

761
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: on that, and it's inspiring to everybody that's here to

762
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: see you up on stage last night dancing with other

763
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: gunner's or whatever it might be. And it does I

764
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: hope you know that it has a real impact not

765
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: only on your peers, but also on all of those

766
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: of us who are in the movement who come out

767
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: of this meeting you and wanting to go do more

768
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: and devote more time and more energy and more resources

769
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: to fight this fight and fix the system so that

770
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: the next OBI never has to go through what you

771
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: went through. And now you're here as an example of

772
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: what's possible. If you could share what you've learned and

773
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: what you want people to understand about you, what would

774
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: it be.

775
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 4: It's a major difference in believing and knowing transition. That

776
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 4: stage is life. The living is in the know. You

777
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: live through the know. You survive through the opposite. You

778
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 4: survived through that. You survive through your belief because it

779
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 4: gets pushed upon constantly, so you survive and you have

780
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: to tolerate, and you do those things. But when you

781
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 4: transition to the note, you live in it and you

782
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 4: exercise the right of the fact of the note.

783
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 6: And that's what I want people to take.

784
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 4: I say, all the time I go around, I get

785
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: a chance to talk at you know, colleges and university,

786
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: and I speak at high schools and I talk to kids,

787
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 4: and that first thing, I'll say, what's two plus two?

788
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 4: They say four? I said, you know that, don't you?

789
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 4: I say yeah. I say, well, who do you believe in?

790
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 4: They say this? I say, why, you just told me

791
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 4: two plus two is four? So why are you believing

792
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 4: this and not knowing it?

793
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 6: You must know that which you say is yours.

794
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 4: I can't say I believe in our marriage and the

795
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 4: sanctity of our marriage and not know the person that

796
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 4: I'm saying that I believe that, so I have to know.

797
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 4: So it's a transition, and that's why I want people

798
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 4: to walk away with this transition over to the no.

799
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 6: Exercise the right to believe, but say that that my

800
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 6: worth is better.

801
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 4: Than that, and my no solidifies me and I move

802
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 4: forward towards my objectives, towards my accomplishments. Because of my no,

803
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 4: my belief puts me in a want sort of scenario.

804
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 4: It makes me want things because of what I believe.

805
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 6: So take that.

806
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: So it's it's really the power of knowing, I guess.

807
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 4: And that's why the innocence come home because they knew

808
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 4: they're innocent. They knew that they would come home. They

809
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 4: didn't want to come home. So I want to go home.

810
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 4: I want to go home. No, they say I'm going home.

811
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 4: I'm innocent.

812
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: That's a powerful message. And think that we can all

813
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: learn from that, and I'm going to have to really

814
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: process that. It's interesting because I've never heard it phrased

815
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: in that way. And you know, I've listened and I've

816
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: learned from so many incredible people, so many spiritual people

817
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 1: who've been through ordeals like what you've been through, people

818
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 1: from all walks of life. But I've never heard anybody

819
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: put it that way. And I think that, Like I said,

820
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you shared that. So I'm glad

821
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: you're here in San Diego. I'm glad to be here

822
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: with you. It's a beautiful day.

823
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 6: Thank you. Can we get a shout out to exonerated nation?

824
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: Exonerated nation?

825
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 5: Yeah?

826
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to do? You want

827
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: to plug you any social media or any other projects

828
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: that you're working on, Like the.

829
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 4: Only project that I'm working on right now is Exonerating Nation.

830
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 6: The other project is a personal.

831
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 4: Project, personal project, but my public project is Exonerated Nation,

832
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 4: and that's what I'm doing right now. So I just

833
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 4: want to give a shout out to Exonerating Nation and

834
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: all those potential or desired supporters.

835
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: And how did people if they want to learn more

836
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: about Exonerated Nation A.

837
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 4: Couple of different ways. So I do have a website.

838
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 4: It's called it Exonerated Nation. You can look it up

839
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 4: online as a website. Also have a Facebook page that

840
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 4: you can also go.

841
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: On Exonerate Nation dot com.

842
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, dot com, you can go on there. I employ

843
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 4: people to follow and those things. But the only reason

844
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: why I asked you to follow is because.

845
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 6: I need you to work. You're following with no actions

846
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 6: doesn't help.

847
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 4: I need follow me so that we can dig this

848
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 4: ground and submit in justice as it's supposed to.

849
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 6: You're following its action.

850
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 4: It's not a metaphorical situation to say I'm following them.

851
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: Oh no, So what do you mean you're following them?

852
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: All right?

853
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 6: What kind of following are you stalking?

854
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: Well?

855
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 6: No, I think kind of following.

856
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 4: What you need you need to describe and when you

857
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 4: describe you're following.

858
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 6: You want to describe a.

859
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: Support I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing this,

860
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 4: and I'm doing that.

861
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: Well, you gotta first learn and get involved. And the

862
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: good news is I think we're because of what's going

863
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: on in this country right now in the world, when

864
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: what I call the new Age of activism, I think

865
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: there's more people than ever that want to get involved.

866
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: They want to learn from people like you. They want

867
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: to help prevent injustice and fight against this crazy situation

868
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in, not just in the criminal

869
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: justice system, but in general and make this world a

870
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: better place. And you're doing an incredible job, and I

871
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: really appreciate you sharing your experienced strength and hope with

872
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: our listening audience, and I know it is going to

873
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: have an impact on many of them. So I hope

874
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: that makes you feel good, because.

875
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 4: It does, and I thank you for the opportunity, and

876
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.

877
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

878
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

879
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

880
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause. And helping

881
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

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Speaker 1: orgorg to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

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Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.

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Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

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Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

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Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava

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Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one