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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress,

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Speaker 1: where I talk to people who inspire me about how

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Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think

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Speaker 1: they're still going. Hey, guys, I am so thrilled for

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Speaker 1: all of you to hear today's episode. I'm sitting down

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Speaker 1: with one of my favorite public servants and political activists,

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Speaker 1: and he also happens to be the former foreign policy

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Speaker 1: director for the GOP. There's a lot of people out

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Speaker 1: there who wouldn't think Evan McMullan and I would be

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Speaker 1: friends or be people who reach out to each other

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Speaker 1: to talk about what's going on in the political spectrum,

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Speaker 1: but we are, and we do. He also happens to

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Speaker 1: be a former CIA operations officer and is currently the

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Speaker 1: executive director of Stand Up Republic, which serves to protect

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Speaker 1: the United States constitution ship. He is fascinating, utterly fascinating,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just so thrilled to introduce you all to

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Speaker 1: him today. We're going to talk about when he knew

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Speaker 1: he wanted to be in the CIA, how he made

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Speaker 1: that happen, what he learned from running for president independently

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Speaker 1: in the state of our country right now, how we

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Speaker 1: can all defend it, and so much more enjoy this.

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Speaker 1: It's special. You have such a I think, in today's climate,

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Speaker 1: to stand against a system which seems as though logically

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Speaker 1: we should be able to observe it and say this

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Speaker 1: doesn't fit in any version of our political system, in

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Speaker 1: any version of either party. You've come out as this

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Speaker 1: incredibly dynamic and strong leader who talks about what's right

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Speaker 1: rather than what side to take, which I'm so grateful for.

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Speaker 1: And I want to get into stand up Republic and

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Speaker 1: I want to get into your career. Were but I

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Speaker 1: want to go back to the beginning because one of

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Speaker 1: the things I'm always so curious about with people who

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Speaker 1: I think are fantastic leaders or super interesting experts is

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Speaker 1: were you were You? Were you like a tiny version

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Speaker 1: of this man when you were a boy? How did

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Speaker 1: you grow up? And were you always interested in sort

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Speaker 1: of serious things? Who? Who was Evan as a child?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm interesting. Wow, that's a that's a first of all,

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Speaker 1: thank you for all this very nice and generous comments. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's true, I mean, and I should tell people because

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Speaker 1: they're probably curious how you and I have wound up,

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Speaker 1: you know, sitting across from each other but we connected

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Speaker 1: on on Twitter because we're out there trying to spread

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Speaker 1: information about what's happening, you know, the crisis of the

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Speaker 1: constitution we find ourselves in. And I thought, like, this

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Speaker 1: guy seems really cool. And I don't I don't remember

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Speaker 1: which of us messaged each other first, but you've been

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Speaker 1: so to generous resource and you know, boost of confidence

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Speaker 1: that the world's not going to end, which I really appreciate. Um,

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Speaker 1: So everybody listening, that's that's how we connected. The Internet

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Speaker 1: isn't all bad. Sometimes you sometimes you find friends in

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Speaker 1: unlikely places absent I I totally agree, and I think

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Speaker 1: this moment, there are silver linings to this moment, this

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Speaker 1: national moment, and I think one of them is finding

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Speaker 1: new friends, often across the political spectrum, across the political aisle,

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Speaker 1: that still agree that one plus one equals too and

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Speaker 1: that we're you know, inherently equal and inherently free, and

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Speaker 1: that we should have a government that reflects that, and

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Speaker 1: that there is goodness in the world, and that you know,

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Speaker 1: there is you know, right and wrong in virtue and

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Speaker 1: these basic ideas and finding people who you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: you may not have spoken too much before because they

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Speaker 1: weren't part of your political vibe, or they lived on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the country or came from a

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Speaker 1: different walk of life. But now you realize, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: we have so much in common, far more in common

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Speaker 1: than we do indifference. That's that's a tremendous silver lining

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Speaker 1: and I think an important response or part of the

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Speaker 1: response and part of the cure to what ails the

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Speaker 1: country right now. So that happened for us, and it's

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Speaker 1: happened for others, and and and it's an encouraging reality,

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Speaker 1: I think. So. Yeah, it definitely is one of the

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Speaker 1: things that makes me feel hopeful. Yeah, so were you

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Speaker 1: were you befriending everybody in school? Were you? Because you

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Speaker 1: grew up in a in a rural area outside Washington. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, well outside of Seattle, Seattle, Washington, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So it was. It was a mostly rural area. You know,

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Speaker 1: people had small or modestly sized farms. There were no

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Speaker 1: ranches in the area per se really, but you know,

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Speaker 1: people had horses and pikins and sheep and things like that.

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Speaker 1: We had we had that too, you know, Sir mix

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Speaker 1: a lot though lived down the streets, so that was strange. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: He lived like a fourth fourth of the mile just

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Speaker 1: down the road. But otherwise it was sort of this

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Speaker 1: like real and he had garages for all his cars

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and we'd see him zooming by

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Speaker 1: on the country road past our place all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's so weird. Yeah, But aside from that, it was

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Speaker 1: sort of this pretty quiet, you know, small rural, mostly

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Speaker 1: rural place and about thirty minutes outside of Seattle and

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Speaker 1: Tacoma if you went the other way. Um, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, we you know, we were a sort of

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Speaker 1: lower middle income family. You know, we never went hungry

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Speaker 1: or anything like that, but at the end of the

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Speaker 1: month we were sort of out of food and waiting

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Speaker 1: for the paycheck the kid and you know didn't you know,

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Speaker 1: didn't turn on the heat in the winter because we

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Speaker 1: couldn't afford that, so we wore winter coats inside and

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Speaker 1: until we got a wood burning stove, and you know,

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Speaker 1: then during the summer we would spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time collecting wood chips at you know, palette making companies

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Speaker 1: and trucking them home to storing them in our barns

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Speaker 1: so we could burn them during the winter to stay warm.

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Speaker 1: So it was i mean, other people struggled much more

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Speaker 1: than we did. I don't mean to paint a picture

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Speaker 1: of you know. It wasn't destitute or anything by any means,

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Speaker 1: but you know, we struggled financially. There was risk of

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Speaker 1: losing the home a lot. I used to it. I

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Speaker 1: was the oldest child. I remember hearing my parents talk

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Speaker 1: about how we might lose our home, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: in my little kid brain, I thought, well, how do

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Speaker 1: we lose the home? I mean, first of all, it's

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Speaker 1: big enough that it would be hard to lose. It's

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Speaker 1: right here or the other side of me. Wonder does

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Speaker 1: someone going to take it from us? How is that possible?

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Speaker 1: How could someone take our home? Um? So there was

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Speaker 1: that sort of heaviness growing up that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people experience tenfold or more to what I experienced, but

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Speaker 1: was part of my upbringing, um learning how to work

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Speaker 1: really hard. Also, you know, there were some there were

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Speaker 1: formative experiences growing up watching my parents. I think my

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Speaker 1: first sort of activist roots happened one day when my

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Speaker 1: I was with my father and he was gassing up

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Speaker 1: our Volkswagen van, which is what we drove. It was

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Speaker 1: an old blue and white Volkswagen van. And we were

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Speaker 1: gassing it up, and we walked into the convenience store

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Speaker 1: to pay or whatever, and my dad noticed that there

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Speaker 1: were a bunch of you know, there was a bunch

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Speaker 1: of porn magazines right up front on the counter, no

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Speaker 1: cover on them, just sort of right there in front

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Speaker 1: where candy normally is. That's what was there. And as

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Speaker 1: a kid, I was seeing it, and uh, I remember

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Speaker 1: my dad, you know, who was not a wealthy man.

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Speaker 1: He was a young professional with four kids and and

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Speaker 1: you know, didn't have a lot of influence you'd think,

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Speaker 1: but I remember him saying to the to the proprietor there,

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Speaker 1: you know, this stuff needs to be back there and

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Speaker 1: with covers on it, and if it isn't, next time

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Speaker 1: i'm here, I won't I won't be back. So that

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Speaker 1: was his simple for something something that he thought was

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Speaker 1: very important. He was worried about my seeing that content

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Speaker 1: as a kid. And I remember I thought, they're not

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Speaker 1: going to do that, Dad, like they know, why would

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Speaker 1: they listen to you. You're a guy with the Volkswagen

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Speaker 1: van who has no influence here. Uh. Well, a week

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Speaker 1: or a month later, we were back in that convenience

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Speaker 1: store and sure enough, all that stuff was back behind

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Speaker 1: the register with covers on it, and and I just

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Speaker 1: there was a lesson learned as a kid. You know that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you could make a difference by simply taking

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Speaker 1: a stand, and especially if you were speaking truth or

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Speaker 1: making sense that you know, even people who are considered

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Speaker 1: weak or less influential all by most standards, by wealth,

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Speaker 1: by you know, whatever it is, education can make a difference.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, especially in retrospect, that had a

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Speaker 1: massive impact on the way I perceived the world and

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Speaker 1: the difference I could make in it over time. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I think anything that equalizes people's voices or reminds you

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Speaker 1: that really every voice has merit because that idea that

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Speaker 1: some people are more powerful than others, or some people's

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Speaker 1: voices mad or more, that's a social construct that we've built.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if we look at history as we

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Speaker 1: understand it, constructs were built by those in power to

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Speaker 1: keep them in power. In a way, we're fighting a

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Speaker 1: version of that currently in our in our country. And

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Speaker 1: it's a special thing when someone shows you that your

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Speaker 1: voice can have merit too, And you know, I think about, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't want, you know, my eventual son or daughter

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Speaker 1: exposed to unexplained hyper sexualized images of men or women.

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Speaker 1: They're detrimental to both. When you start setting these expectations

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Speaker 1: of that's what you're supposed to be, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: taking this sort of intimacy and empathy and communication and

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Speaker 1: consent out of those conversations with kids, and the ramifications

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Speaker 1: of those things can be really serious. And I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people probably would have thought it is

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Speaker 1: what it is. But I love that even in that moment,

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Speaker 1: your dad was like, does it have to be right?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it has to be Yeah, absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: I agree, and you know, whatever, you know, whatever the

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Speaker 1: the issue is, whatever you're acting on. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: always a big advocate for people, you know, be an

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Speaker 1: advocate for what you believe, and participate in the in

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Speaker 1: the competition of ideas, even if there especially if I

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Speaker 1: don't agree, you know, advocate for what you believe. And

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Speaker 1: that's what makes this country what it is, is that

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Speaker 1: we have the luxury and the freedom to to have

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Speaker 1: this competition of ideas and people should be activists for

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Speaker 1: what they care about. And if if we all did that,

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Speaker 1: and if we all at the same time listen to

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Speaker 1: each other. We're gonna be much better off for doing that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've been thinking a lot about how and

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Speaker 1: and writing a little bit about how I think we're

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Speaker 1: in denial as a country and your denial is and

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Speaker 1: so I did a little bit of reading about denial,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's a coping mechanism, you know it.

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Speaker 1: In some cases, we need to be in denial to

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Speaker 1: deal with some of the challenges we may face in

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Speaker 1: our personal lives when they hit, because if we don't

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Speaker 1: have a little bit of denial in the beginning, we

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden can't function perhaps and then right

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Speaker 1: and then it's even more dangerous because we're not we

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Speaker 1: can't even function in our normal lives without a little denial.

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Speaker 1: But eventually, you know, we need to get out of

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Speaker 1: that stage so that we can take action to you know,

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Speaker 1: get treatment for our cancer, whatever it is. And my

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Speaker 1: concern is that we're not getting out of that stage

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Speaker 1: fast enough, and we need to get out of that

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Speaker 1: stage and realize what's going on. For example, that you know,

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Speaker 1: we need to be able to say, you know, clear,

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Speaker 1: in a clear eyed way, was not a free and

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Speaker 1: fair election. We had foreign interference that most likely was

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Speaker 1: decisive in the elections outcome. It was a very very

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Speaker 1: very narrow outcome, with the president losing the popular vote

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Speaker 1: and winning the electoral College by just seventy votes in

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Speaker 1: exactly the right places, exactly, by the way, the same

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Speaker 1: places that Trump's campaign chairman Paul Manafort told the Russians

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Speaker 1: they should focus. And I would just love to say

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Speaker 1: for listeners to understand the severity of what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: because most people listening know what I think, and maybe

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Speaker 1: they don't quite know what you think. I hope now

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Speaker 1: they will. But you're saying this to me as the

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Speaker 1: former chief policy director of the House Republican Conference, as

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Speaker 1: House Committee on Foreign Affairs, as a former CIA agent.

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Speaker 1: I mean this is you have a storied and dedicated

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Speaker 1: career of service to this country, and you speak about

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Speaker 1: these issues as a Republican, as a person who has

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Speaker 1: been a I would assume lifelong member of the conservative

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Speaker 1: political party in this country, and and so I just

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Speaker 1: want to reiterate how important it is for us, regardless

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Speaker 1: of what we think, you know, states should be doing

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Speaker 1: with their money, when we really look at the larger

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Speaker 1: umbrella of America. There are just things that, no matter

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Speaker 1: what side you sort of sway towards, we we should

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Speaker 1: be agreeing on as fact because they are facts. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: instances of collusion are fact, right, exactly one equals to

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Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, and you you know you're you're right.

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Speaker 1: I I do consider myself a conservative, although not in

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Speaker 1: the way that it's defined at this point. Well, I

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Speaker 1: imagine you feel like you've lost the party used to be. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And and just as a point of clarification, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have until sixteen, I had only ever supported or

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Speaker 1: donated or volunteered or worked for worked with Republicans. I've

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Speaker 1: been a registered independent for as long as I can remember.

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Speaker 1: I still am. But I was a you know, a

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Speaker 1: senior policy person for for the House Republicans and and

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Speaker 1: so so. Yes, but um, but I I say these

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Speaker 1: things not as you know, a representative of any of that,

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Speaker 1: as much as I am just an American And that

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Speaker 1: comes first. And I think it is so important that

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Speaker 1: we recognize is and and sort of own what happened

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Speaker 1: in sixteen. And it's you know, I say these things

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Speaker 1: as somebody who comes from the right side of the

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Speaker 1: political spectrum, the conservative side. But you know, there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of people on the left two who won't

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Speaker 1: say these things because they feel like, oh, I'll be

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Speaker 1: you know, people will say I'm partisan or i'm you know,

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Speaker 1: this is just a partisan response, and that's sort of

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Speaker 1: the you know, the baggage of our polarization in this

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Speaker 1: country now. But we can't allow that to prevent us

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Speaker 1: from speaking truth. But the reason why it's so important

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge what happened in is not because we need

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Speaker 1: to relive and relitigate that over and over. It's because

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Speaker 1: we need to be prepared for And I am very

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Speaker 1: concerned that given that we did not have a fully

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Speaker 1: free and fair election in now, the chances in twenty

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Speaker 1: that that that that will happen again, or that something

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Speaker 1: like it will happen again are much greater, especially because

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Speaker 1: those who were involved with the Trump campaign for the

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Speaker 1: most part, and Trump himself and the Russians have not

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Speaker 1: been held accountable, and so now the incentives are even

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Speaker 1: um are even greater for them to do what they

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Speaker 1: did in perhaps in a different way, but to do

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Speaker 1: something they got off scott free. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: if you're the Russians, you're worried about the Democrats coming

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Speaker 1: to power, taking the White House, because if you're not, not,

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Speaker 1: all Russians are coming back, you know, to hold you accounting.

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Speaker 1: They will hold you accountable because they have an incentive

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Speaker 1: to do it and because they're you know, they're acting

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Speaker 1: in the interests of the country, and so acting in

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Speaker 1: the interests of the country is an incredibly important thing.

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Speaker 1: To take a bet on it that it is required

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Speaker 1: of any public servant in this country to act in

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Speaker 1: the interests of this country, to protect this country. It's citizens,

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Speaker 1: it's elections, it's democracy, it's constitution, and we are losing

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Speaker 1: hold on those things. You wrote a you wrote an

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Speaker 1: OpEd inten about Trump's threat to the constitution. Did you

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Speaker 1: see it getting this bad? Did you know that this

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Speaker 1: is how how bad it was going to get and

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Speaker 1: how quickly? Yeah, I did think this was going to happen,

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Speaker 1: which is why you know why I've been active in

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Speaker 1: the way I have since. Absolutely this is what I

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Speaker 1: thought would happen. The only thing that I didn't the

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Speaker 1: two things that I didn't fully predict. Number one, I

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Speaker 1: didn't think that Trump would so quickly make a concerted,

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Speaker 1: systematic attack on truth. I thought that that would happen,

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Speaker 1: but I thought it would happen in him as he

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Speaker 1: realized over time they needed to do attack truth in

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Speaker 1: order to remain unaccountable to the people. But he knew

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Speaker 1: quickly that that's what he needed to He's done that

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Speaker 1: his whole career exactly. So that was some naivete, naivete

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Speaker 1: on my part. I also thought that, you know, I

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Speaker 1: I also I did think that, for example, Republicans would

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Speaker 1: not stand up to Trump and the way they thought

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Speaker 1: they would. Uh. They they thought privately that what would

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Speaker 1: happen is that even if Trump were elected, they would

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Speaker 1: be able to own him rather than him owning them.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, you know, you're fooling yourselves. And that

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Speaker 1: was when I was the policy director for excuse me,

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Speaker 1: for the House Republicans, and I was part of, you know,

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Speaker 1: these discussions in which that was the idea that will

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll be able to control him. We know more,

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Speaker 1: we've been at this for longer. He's a he's a newbie,

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Speaker 1: he's he's a novice to the whole governance thing. We'll

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Speaker 1: be able to control him, not vice versa. I thought

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Speaker 1: that was entirely naive. If you couldn't stand up to him,

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Speaker 1: then then you weren't going to stand up to him

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Speaker 1: as president of the United States. But I did think

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Speaker 1: even then there would be some Republicans who would stand

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Speaker 1: up to the president elected Republicans, I want to clarify.

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Speaker 1: And now there are virtually none there. You know, there

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Speaker 1: there are one or two at times, but they're virtually none.

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Speaker 1: And I and so in that case, it's it's worse

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Speaker 1: than I thought. It's a wild thing for me as

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Speaker 1: a person who have been deeply entrenched in the political

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Speaker 1: system for as long as I can remember. I think

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Speaker 1: because I've understood that it's part of our civic duty.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's because my dad is an immigrant, and

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Speaker 1: I remember helping him study for his citizenship test when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid, and my mother's mother came through

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Speaker 1: Ellis Island to pursue the American dream, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I'm either a first or a second generation American, depending

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Speaker 1: on which parent you can't And to see as a

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Speaker 1: kid who always idealized the Constitution, and who studied journalism

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Speaker 1: and political science and college and and who just really

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Speaker 1: believes in the system here and loves this country to

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Speaker 1: see career servants flipped to the dark side so quickly.

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Speaker 1: I'm so dumbfounded by how in toxic haating that proximal

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Speaker 1: power is to people who like you. I had hoped, naively,

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Speaker 1: I realized, would stick to what's right at the sort

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Speaker 1: of fundamental pillar level of the country and the constitution.

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Speaker 1: And they're all just dropping like lies. And it's it's

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Speaker 1: a wild thing, you know, it's a wild thing to

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Speaker 1: watch an attorney for the United States argue that children

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Speaker 1: don't deserve soap and toothbrush. And did you see the

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Speaker 1: ship captain who he was a captive of Somali pirates

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Speaker 1: for a while. I have to find his name, and

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Speaker 1: he said, the Somali pirates gave me toothpaste and soap.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's just have a real frank conversation about who

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Speaker 1: we are being in the world today. And it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's just so out there, and this idea

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Speaker 1: that people aren't saying anything so that they can stay

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Speaker 1: in the good graces of an authoritarian. I don't even

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Speaker 1: want to say leader. I don't I don't even know

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Speaker 1: what the word, you know, figure, it's it's a really

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Speaker 1: it's disheartening. I'm really inspired by there's folks we both

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Speaker 1: follow on Twitter who are doing so much advocacy or

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Speaker 1: attempting to do advocacy. But it's hard to make noise

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Speaker 1: when everything is noisy, because everything's insane. But they're doing

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Speaker 1: all of this work around election security and really making

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Speaker 1: public what's going on and how these voting machines state

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Speaker 1: to state are changing, and they're running on these insecure modems,

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Speaker 1: and they're not having paper print outs, and and they're

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Speaker 1: making it very difficult for us to have records for

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Speaker 1: the upcoming election. And now there are these groundswell groups

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Speaker 1: and states advocating that we go back, that we go

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Speaker 1: back to paper ballots, that we go back to hand

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Speaker 1: marked paper ballots, which are really the only secure way

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Speaker 1: to vote in a in a culture in which everything

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Speaker 1: to it a can can be hacked. So I'm curious

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Speaker 1: what you think. You know, I know the Pave act

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Speaker 1: is is trying to get past and make sure that

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Speaker 1: we go back two paper ballots, And I'm curious what

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Speaker 1: you think of that and how we can advocate in

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Speaker 1: nonpartisan ways for secure elections. And I'm also curious what

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Speaker 1: you think about rank choice voting. Yeah, well, I'm very

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Speaker 1: passionate about that. You know, look, I think paper, paper ballots,

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Speaker 1: a paper trail for all votes cast is absolutely vital.

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Speaker 1: It's a vital reform we need. Um. I would also

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Speaker 1: say that, you know, it's possible to have all of

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Speaker 1: that and have sort of the hacking and the manipulation

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Speaker 1: happening on the voter rolls of voter file. So you

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Speaker 1: show up to vote and you know you're registered to vote,

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Speaker 1: you voted recently, you know you're registered, you checked before,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe you checked some months ago. But all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden you're told, oh, no, you can't vote

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Speaker 1: because your address doesn't match the one that's on your

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Speaker 1: voter I D Card or your your driver's license, so

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Speaker 1: you can't vote here. Things like that. So you it's

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Speaker 1: not even messing with the vote talies, it's messing with

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Speaker 1: people's ability to actually vote. I mean, we saw it

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Speaker 1: with the Stacy Abrams race from Georgia. That was insane.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that was the insane thing to witness. Just

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Speaker 1: that's that's right. All of those people purged from the roles,

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Speaker 1: all of those polling places closed. They really were so

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Speaker 1: blatant making sure she wouldn't win because they knew she

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Speaker 1: was going to And what accountability is there? And you

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Speaker 1: know the the election fraud in in North Carolina against

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Speaker 1: UM where the where the Republican candidate Mark Harris, with

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Speaker 1: the knowledge of the state and national party in the

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Speaker 1: general election, engaged in an election fraud in ballot fraud

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Speaker 1: against a Democratic candidate Dan McCready was a very good candidate. UM.

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Speaker 1: So we lived in North Carolina for nine years. I

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Speaker 1: was I was hot under the collar about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well it's it's, you know, something that we all need

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Speaker 1: to fight against, no whether no matter what party we're

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Speaker 1: you know, we belong to this. Look, this is about

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Speaker 1: our ability to choose our own leaders and to hold

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Speaker 1: them accountable. This is this is everything. And if if

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Speaker 1: you're you know, a member of one party and you think, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this is going to help us win, so I guess

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Speaker 1: I'll allow it to happen, We'll wake up because it

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Speaker 1: will happen against you the next time. And this is

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Speaker 1: as individuals, I mean we you know are you know,

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Speaker 1: the power of the people has to come first before

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Speaker 1: you know, the interests of our parties and our part

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Speaker 1: as an interest on ran choice it's a relief to

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Speaker 1: have people reminding us that that's true. Yeah, I wish

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Speaker 1: more would. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's what we're fighting for

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Speaker 1: on ring choice voting. You know, for the listeners, I

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Speaker 1: think many have probably heard of it, many perhaps have not,

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Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's simply a way for for

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Speaker 1: us to go into the ballot box, the voting booth,

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Speaker 1: and to their go into the voting booth. We don't

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Speaker 1: go into the palot box escope, No, none of us

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Speaker 1: are that small and just rank our vote to say

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Speaker 1: who we who we prefer, you know, number one, two, three,

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Speaker 1: four or five, uh, and more fully express our preferences.

429
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: And it's you know, it's a it's a it's a

430
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: change to our ballots, but it's one that's supported by

431
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: most machines now updated machines in software. Um. But it

432
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: just allows voters to fully express their preferences. But it

433
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: can have a tremendously positive impact on our country. How well.

434
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: If you and I are are if we're running against

435
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: each other, you know we are. You know, if voters

436
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: can say that they like you number one in me

437
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: number two, if that's a possibility, then I must much

438
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,959
Speaker 1: less likely to sling mud at you, But more importantly,

439
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 1: I'm much more likely to find common ground with you,

440
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: to to highlight the areas where we agree and yes,

441
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: we disagree on some things, and those that differentiation is important.

442
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 1: It's a race, after all. But just as if not

443
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: more important, is that common ground. And that's what we

444
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: need in this country. We need to change the incentives

445
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: for our leaders so that they're encouraged and rewarded for

446
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: finding common ground that does exist even with people on

447
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: on the other side of the political spectrum. I mean,

448
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 1: I there was a recent issue I forgot exactly what

449
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: it was. I think it was maybe a lobbying issue

450
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: or something where Ted cruzh the Republican senator from Texas,

451
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: found common ground with aoc On on some issue and

452
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: they agreed on Twitter to work together on on a

453
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: bill to to make some reforms if they can find

454
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: common ground, for Heaven's sakes, and I I believe that

455
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: there's common ground on even the most divisive issues in

456
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: our country, the ones that we're all afraid to touch.

457
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: I I reject that. I think that there's more more

458
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: that unites us than divides us. Ranked choice voting, you know,

459
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: change that making that change to our ballots allows us,

460
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: empowers everyone, allows us to more fully express our preferences,

461
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: but then incentivizes our leaders to reflect that common ground

462
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: and to build on it. And that's what we need

463
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: right now. This political this partisan polarization is making us ungovernable.

464
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: We we can't govern ourselves because of it. Foreign adversaries

465
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: are looking at us and saying, these people, these Americans

466
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: are so divided that all we have to go in there,

467
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: and all we have to do is go in there

468
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: and stoke that a little bit. Well, we're cannibalizing our

469
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: own And the irony is that, much like and television entertainment,

470
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: the more extreme the event, the higher the ratings. So

471
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: now our politicians are behaving like extremists. They're going, oh, well,

472
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: if I say the outlandish thing, I'll be in the

473
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: paper for the next three days. That's not what our

474
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: politicians are supposed to do. They're supposed to be voices

475
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: of reason, and to your point, they're supposed to govern

476
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: for everyone. They're supposed to find common ground work towards

477
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: common good and and I think rank choice voting would

478
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: be so great for us because it would force them

479
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: back to that We're not getting up from this table

480
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: until everyone agrees on something, and that's what we need.

481
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: You know. I remember even in the last election hearing

482
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: you know, the adage of like, well, what I want

483
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: to have a beer with that person. I'm like, I

484
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: don't need to want to have a beer with my president.

485
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: I need the president to be the president. I'll have

486
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: beers with my friends. You know. You you you need

487
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: for some some sort of sanity to come back into

488
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: this right and you don't get that without changing incentives,

489
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, And I wish you to your point earlier.

490
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: I wish that we could just count on people to

491
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: just sort of uphold those pillars of democracy that we

492
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: were talking about before. But we can't just leave that anymore.

493
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: To hope, you know, we have to actually change the

494
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: We have to incentivize it, because right now, the wrong

495
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: things are incentivized. And that's why hope for morality or

496
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: whatever we want to call it is winning out, because

497
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: bad behavior is rewarded. And you know, think about it,

498
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: it's like we are raising a nation together. You know,

499
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: America is a child that we're all responsible for, a

500
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: young one in the history of the world. And you

501
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: would never leave a kid to its own worst devices.

502
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: You know. Imagine if if you were you know, you

503
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: adopt a puppy and you're meant to train your animal

504
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: to be a member of your family in society and

505
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: not be a complete psychopath who knocks tables over and

506
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: steals other people's food. Imagine if you only rewarded that

507
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: dog's bad behavior like good luck, you're going to have

508
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: a feral animal on your hands. And I kind of like,

509
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, is America feral puppy right now? What's happening?

510
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: Will you? We we've we've we've made the incentive such

511
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: that that that's how we're getting. So you ran in

512
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: as an independent, Can you tell us a little bit

513
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: about what that experience was Like? Yeah, I mean, well,

514
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: first of all, it was for me, it was only

515
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: three months. It was sort of this emergency moonshot campaign

516
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: to give conservatives who weren't gonna, you know, didn't want

517
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: to vote for Trump and and weren't going to vote

518
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: for a Democrat to vote for someone else, and to

519
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: hopefully convince some people who were thinking about voting for

520
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: Trump to to to go another way, you know, especially

521
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: if they weren't gonna and some people. Some people voted Democrat,

522
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: they were okay with that, but there were certain Republicans

523
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: who just weren't going to do that. And so you know,

524
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: we made a case. I in my campaign, we tried

525
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: to make a case that that President Trump, now President Trump,

526
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: was dangerous to the country. That you know, yes, you've

527
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: got you know, we've got differences on policy issues with

528
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: the Democrats, that's normal, but the president is somebody who

529
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: genuinely threatens the country. And you know, I think I

530
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: say that now, and looking back on that, I think

531
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: people thought that that was sort of a campaign slogan,

532
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: you know that you know, maybe I didn't really mean it.

533
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: It's sort of maybe I meant it like you know,

534
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: Marco Rubio meant it when he said the president is

535
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: a con or Trump is a con man. Well, it

536
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: turns out that now Marco Rubio is, you know, a

537
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: big supporter of the president and campaigning for his re election.

538
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: In that that's not how I meant it. I actually

539
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: meant it. Yeah, when I said, look, the president presents

540
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: a danger to Trump at the time Canada, Trump presents

541
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: a danger of the country, I really meant it, and

542
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: I still mean it. It's not a campaign slogan. I

543
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: think some people were surprised that when he was elected

544
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: and I didn't abandon that message. I didn't change, I

545
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: didn't fall in line. They sort of thought, what's the

546
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: matter with you? Because yeah, right when you said that,

547
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: you were just saying that as as a campaign line

548
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: of attack. I mean, you didn't really meant mean that.

549
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: You said it during a campaign, And no, I mean,

550
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: that's that's not actually the case. I said because I

551
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: meant I said it because I meant it, And that's

552
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: that's the kind of person and leader I want to

553
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: be as somebody who someone who speaks the truth even

554
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: when it's unpopular, and so that you know, so I

555
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: meant it? Is that? Does that come from your childhood?

556
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: Because I know we jumped straight into sort of current

557
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: policy stuff, but I did read, and I love this.

558
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: I read that you were elected sixth grade class president

559
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: at Lake Elements. My other campaign and that was man

560
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: with a Plan. And one of your childhood friends remembers

561
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: that your platform then was to clean up a nearby park,

562
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: and and classmates of yours in elementary school talk about

563
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: how you were always serious and concerned and and looking

564
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: at the larger picture, and clearly that tendency has followed

565
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: you through your life. You're you're very willing to look

566
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: at the acts and and talk about you know, unity

567
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: and bipartisanship. Now, where did that come from? Where does

568
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: the sixth grader become the man with a plan? Well,

569
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: that slogan, that that slogan came That was slogan I

570
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: think came from my mother, to be honest, but I

571
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: liked it, and I said that I approved that. I

572
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: am that's right. Yeah, you know, yeah, from a young age.

573
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about where this, where this came from.

574
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: And it may have come from, you know, you know

575
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: what I learned from my my parents and some of

576
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: the stories I mentioned earlier. But you know, I'm thinking,

577
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: now where did this come from? And I'm not exactly sure,

578
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: but ever since I was young, I did have a

579
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: very strong sense for for justice that you know, for

580
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: some reason, I don't know why, I mean, I don't

581
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: know exactly why, but a sense that things should be

582
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: just and that and then also I've long been passionate

583
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 1: about about equality, that we are equal as human beings.

584
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: And I remember as a kid, when I was young,

585
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a filmmaker, and we would make films,

586
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, my brother and friends and stuff, and you know,

587
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: it was a lot of fun, and that's what I

588
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: wanted to do for a living until I saw a

589
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: film called Three Days of the Condor, which was an

590
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: old Robert Redford spide film film, still one of the

591
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: best made. But you know, that captured my attention and

592
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: imagination and I went on to want to work for

593
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: the CIA, and there's that whole you know thing. But

594
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: but another movie that I I saw that really influenced

595
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: me as a kid was a movie that is also

596
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: a book called The Power of One. And if you've

597
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: never seen it, if listeners have never seen it, I

598
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: strongly recommend reading the book or watching the movie. But

599
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: it's about a young boy who fights apartheid in South Africa.

600
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: And I say that and I get choked up even

601
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: thinking and talking about it. I've probably watched that movie,

602
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, fifty times, um, and and read the book.

603
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 1: And you know that had a huge impact on me,

604
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: just um. Both the substance of it that that we

605
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: are inherently equal, um. And I want to come back

606
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: to to to another source of that in a in

607
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: a moment, But then this idea that that you can

608
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: make a difference, you know, and and that is that's

609
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: a movie. But but I saw, you know, I saw

610
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: my dad make a difference in in a small way,

611
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: and I you know, that film had a great impact

612
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: on me. And another piece of it is is the following. Uh.

613
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: You know, I was raised in in a Mormon family,

614
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: in a in a family that belongs you know, a

615
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: family that belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of

616
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: Latter day Saints, and so we would go to church

617
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: every Sunday, and that it was a big part of

618
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: our lives. And you know, I was taught to pray

619
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: as a young boy, and and and I embraced that

620
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: and it became my own thing where you know, I

621
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: would pray, you know, with my family when we would

622
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: we would pray before dinner or sometimes at night before

623
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: we went to bed. We'd pray together. Um, but I

624
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: would not as often as I should have, but make

625
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: say personal prayers before I went to bed or in

626
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: the morning. And and there were other times when, you know,

627
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 1: things were not always easy. When I was a kid.

628
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: There were some tough times and I remember, you know,

629
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: feeling very you know, hopeless at times as a kid

630
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: about you know, certain things that were happening and challenges

631
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: we faced or that I faced. Was that some of

632
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: the you know, financial stress you were talking about some

633
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: of us that more sort of family dynamic or community

634
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: it was, you know, financial stress, it was, you know,

635
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: sometimes family dynamics it was. There were a lot there

636
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: were different things, but but a lot of it is

637
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: sort of what I've you know, explained just that financial

638
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: stress and and you know, some other things as well.

639
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: But I you know, there were moments when you know,

640
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: I would pray to be to to heavenly Father, who

641
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, I believed knew who I was, knew who

642
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: we all were, and I believed loved us all including me,

643
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, I was. I remember being

644
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: eight years old and and sort of saying prayers in

645
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: these moments where I felt hopeless. And I have to say,

646
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: in those moments, repeatedly and without fail, I felt comforted.

647
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: And and again I get emotional. This is gratitude that

648
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: that I'm feeling as I tell you the story. But

649
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: I felt in those moments confirmation that you know, that

650
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: that heavenly Father knew who I was, and that Heavenly

651
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: Father loved me and that everything was gonna be okay.

652
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: And the reason why I tell that story now is

653
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: because I deduced even as a kid, Well, if Heavenly

654
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: Father knows me and loves me and cares about me

655
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: and is willing to respond in this moment to me, well,

656
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: then he must be willing to do that to everyone.

657
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: And and if that's the case, if if we're equal

658
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: in that sense, then that's it. We're equal, you know,

659
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: that's right. And so that had a super strong impact

660
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: on me. And so you know, later in life, when

661
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: I would see movies like the Power of One or

662
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: see evidence of injustice or inequality, it always sort of

663
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: it always it didn't sit well with me. But that's

664
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: not the right way it it um you know, it

665
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: angered me. Actually, that's there's only one thing that really

666
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: angers me. It's when the powerful mistreat the weak. And

667
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: so through life when I would see that, when I

668
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: would see the powerful mistreating or abusing the weak, uh,

669
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,959
Speaker 1: it would it would really inspire action on my part.

670
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: Me too. My my friend Glenn and Doyle calls that

671
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: sacred rage, and I talk a lot about that that

672
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: I feel in the same way that you do, I'm

673
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: having such a I'm I'm expressing some gratitude to you

674
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: because it's a it's a mirror moment of thanks that

675
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: you're willing to share. Because I really think that some

676
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: of us were lucky enough to see the truth young

677
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: and then to be willing to fight for it. And similarly,

678
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm always so interested how people virtuality

679
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: has affected the way they see the world because I

680
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: grew up in a family with a mom who was

681
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 1: raised Italian Catholic and a dad who's Agnostic, and then

682
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: the other sort of extended half of my family is

683
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: all Jewish, so I grew up going going to church,

684
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: not going to church, thinking of nature as church, and

685
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: going to synagogue and loving synagogue, and then realizing that

686
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: people would get really heated when they would hear that

687
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: I celebrated to holidays of theoretically opposing religions, But I

688
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: was kind of like, holidays are the best we have, Hanka,

689
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: and then we have Christmas, and then it's New Years,

690
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: and you know, it was it was like a never

691
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: ending party of family, food and togetherness. And my studies

692
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: of those spaces yielded that basically the window dressing is different,

693
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: but everyone says the same thing, which is love, thy neighbor,

694
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: and and lift up those who are have have been

695
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: dealt cards to be beneath you in some resource level

696
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: of life. And and because I also was encouraged to

697
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: believe it, don't believe it. Decide what feels true for you.

698
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: I realized I found it in nature, and I realized

699
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: things like the Fibonacci sequence and all of these shapes

700
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: and histories in nature that repeat and repeat and repeat,

701
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: and the beauty of evolution and how the planet has developed.

702
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: And then I got excited and started studying Eastern philosophy

703
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: and Hindu philosophy and started trans transgental meditation and and

704
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: for me learning in all of these spaces, again just

705
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: reiterates it's love. It's love, it's love, and lift people,

706
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: uplift people, uplift people up. And so you speak in

707
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: terms of heavenly father, I speak in terms of the universe.

708
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what to call it. So to me,

709
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: it's like the universe loves us so much. And and

710
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: where my sacred rage comes from is that injustice feels

711
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: like an affront to the gift of the universe. Yeah,

712
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: and to truth. Yes, like we've been handed this opportunity

713
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: to advocate for our community, for our village. We we

714
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: evolved in these villages of humans, and to me, it

715
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: seems only logical that as time goes on and the

716
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: millennia continue, our villages are meant to become one big village.

717
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: And when we when we miss it, and when we

718
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: repeat the mistakes of the past, and when someone like

719
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: a George Taka is talking about what it was like

720
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: to be in an internment camp, which is an American

721
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: concentration camp that didn't have a death chamber, that's all

722
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: that that is. You know, people are upset with aoc

723
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: for using the term, and I think it's important to

724
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: use the term because we have to be historically accurate.

725
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: And and the fact that he in his old age

726
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: is alive and seeing this happen again, and seeing children

727
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: being abused, and and that we are acting as though

728
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: their children aren't our children, it seems so wild to me.

729
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: And it does feel like it goes against the sacred

730
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: And I think that's where the sacred rage can come

731
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: from it because it's a fuel for humanity. And I

732
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: guess that leads me to be curious, do you still

733
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: is the Mormon Church still important in your life? Do

734
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: you have a different kind of spirituality? Do you look where?

735
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: Do you find that in your adult life? Yeah? Well,

736
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: well it is, you know, and it's um. You know,

737
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: I've I like to say that I'm forty three years

738
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: old now, and I like to say, don't look a

739
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: day over twenties. Thanks, you know, I've I've lived a

740
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: lot of life in in in my forty plus years,

741
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's sort of my experience as a

742
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: kid or like you know, then working for the central

743
00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: intelligence agents. So many questions. Yeah, and and just you know,

744
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: I've traveled around. I've been to every corner of the planet,

745
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: it seems, and they're always new places to go. And

746
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: I've got a list. But you have to get that

747
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: extension thing in your passport. Um, No, I just order

748
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: extra thick passports. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um. Or sometimes you

749
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: can get a second passport, so sometimes I've had. It's

750
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: a little known thing. You can get it done, you know.

751
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: If you are traveling, for example, if you're gonna travel

752
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: to travel to Israel, you used to be able to

753
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: get two passports because Arab countries wouldn't let you in

754
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 1: if you've been to Israel, so you can get two passports.

755
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's still a thing, but anyway, sorry,

756
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: what was the question? Um, I don't even what did

757
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: I ask you? I was asked about my current faith. Yeah,

758
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: I was asking how, how in in the shape of

759
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: your life now does your do you have a spiritual practice? I?

760
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: I do? And I was sort of my long wind

761
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: up was just I was just saying that I've lived

762
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: a lot of life in my forty plus three years,

763
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: and uh, and I've I've seen a lot, and I've

764
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: experienced a lot and um, and and as I've done that,

765
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: I've sort of I've I've seen uh and learned a

766
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: lot and and and you might now be expecting me

767
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: to say and so now you know my faith is

768
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: very different. Yes, it has matured, and it's you know,

769
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: there was a time in my life where I was

770
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: very a very black and white sort of person, and

771
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: now I see more grays and and that comes from understanding,

772
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: you know, the human condition and being a part of that,

773
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: experiencing it for myself and seeing it in others. But

774
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: I I will say that, you know, I do believe

775
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: that it is still a part of my faith is

776
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: still a part of my life, a significant part of

777
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: my life. I have not always been a perfect practitioner

778
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,959
Speaker 1: of my faith, and but I noticed in my life

779
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: that that when I am, when I do the things

780
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: that I believe that I should do, which include, you know,

781
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: helping others, you know, treating others, loving others, um, you know, UM,

782
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 1: respecting myself UM, trying to stay in tune with with God,

783
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: trying to you know, pray to help me stay in tune,

784
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: trying to study the scriptures. When I do those things,

785
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: I feel filled with with you know, more gratitude and

786
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: kindness to others, more charity for others. Charity in the

787
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: sense that the love the love of others, love for others,

788
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: not in the sort of charitable giving sense, but in

789
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: in that former sense. And I find that it it

790
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: helps me to lead a better, more giving, more loving,

791
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: and and more guided life, more inspired life. I find

792
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: it my relationship to God. When I'm respecting it pays

793
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: all kinds of dividends, whether they be spiritual or health

794
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: or even professional. That um, I feel, you know, when

795
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm in tune in this way, when I'm when I'm

796
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: filled with that love for others when I'm filled with

797
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: gratitude for everything I have in life, everything I've experienced,

798
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 1: the good and the bad. Some of that I brought

799
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: upon myself, you know, good or bad. I am a

800
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: better person. I am more patient, I feel more inspiration

801
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: for my work. I find new ways to help people,

802
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: new opportunities to help people seem to arise. Uh. And

803
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: so yes, it's it's My faith is still very important

804
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: to me. And you know, I I learn a lot

805
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: from studying, you know, the life of Jesus Christ and

806
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: to try trying to actually live like he lived. And

807
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: it pains me a great deal to see people in

808
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: this country today, not that I'm any example of perfection,

809
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: because I'm not, but completely abusing others in the name

810
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: of Christ and pretty devastated. It's it's terrible, and it's

811
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: been interesting for me. I I find myself just thinking,

812
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: like yes to so many of the things that you've

813
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: just said. One of one of the things I'm most

814
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: grateful for has been my experiences of touching worship in

815
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 1: so many different places and experiencing that reminder to step

816
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: outside of myself, think about a bird's eye view, think

817
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: about what it would look like to look down on

818
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: the world and see everyone the same. And you know,

819
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: you talked about traveling in the Middle East, and I

820
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: remember having to get the extra sheet in my passport

821
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: because I was on a trip visiting all of the

822
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: sacred sites through Israel, and the Ramote Crater was this

823
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: incredibly mystical experience for me. And you know, not a

824
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: religious space, but I told you, nature feels like it

825
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: feels like a house of worship to me. And I

826
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: I left there, and I traveled to Jordan, and then

827
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: I traveled to Turkey. And I've been through parts of

828
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: the Middle East many times and and I find such

829
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 1: beauty and all of it. And and I remember being

830
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: in Turkey and sitting in Hagia Sophia and people were like,

831
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: it's your mosque, and you know, praying there with people.

832
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: And I attend mosque here in l A with my

833
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: friend Mata, and people are people always wonder why, you know,

834
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, some of a friend cracked to joke, was like,

835
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: don't you have enough religious things to do, like your family?

836
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: And and because of all the curiosity I had as

837
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: a kid that was encouraged, I spent my whole senior

838
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: year in high school taking courses on Islamic studies. And

839
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: it's been such an interesting thing because at that point

840
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: you talk about that that there are people in this

841
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: country who claim that they're Christian. I don't. I can't

842
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: do it without the air quotes, who mistreat children and

843
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: the poor and and don't see the irony. And then

844
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: those are often the people that I wind up speaking

845
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: to as you know, a proximal advocate for a culture

846
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: that I have been experiencing and loved since I was seventeen.

847
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: Who you know, there's been this demonization of Islam and

848
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: the Islamophobia being encouraged in this country, and this xenophobia

849
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: being encouraged in this country, and I feel so privileged

850
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: to have a perspective on so many different communities, and

851
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: you know, to me, it seems so obvious, like how

852
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: how could you think that someone who would literally defy

853
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: the sort of sacredness of their religion to be an extremist.

854
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: They don't have anything to do with the religion, just

855
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: like you can't claim that if you're willing to abuse children,

856
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: you you don't get to call yourself a Christian, you know,

857
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: And I wonder, I guess I'm just sort of having

858
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: this moment where I'm like, God, I wonder where, where

859
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: the where the dissonance came from? How how we kind

860
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: of where and wherever. Whether you believe in something specific

861
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: there's a specific book that you worship, or or you're

862
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: agnostic and you just think something going on in the

863
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: world that feels a little magical sometimes, you know, or

864
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: maybe you're an atheist. I don't know, but I wonder

865
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: how we can kind of divest from kindness and claim

866
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: that we believe in that we believe in it, right, Yeah, Yeah,

867
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: It's it's such a tough question. And I grapple with

868
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: that too, especially because you know, I feel like I've

869
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 1: come from from the sort of the Christian world and

870
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: that community, and to to see what's happening in parts

871
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: of it and a great deal of it in the

872
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: United States is really challenging. And and all I can say,

873
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, I will say, it's of course faith in religion.

874
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: It's it's such a charged but also very personal issue.

875
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: I really, you know, I hate to talk about or

876
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm very cautious about talking about, you know, other people's

877
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: faith in their practice because you never really know sort

878
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: of how people but but I but I do think

879
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: it's important in these moments to to speak some truth

880
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: as as I'm observing it. And I would ask the

881
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: question if, if you, as a Christian or any faith

882
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: that encourages these sort of foundational you know, the foundational

883
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: love of all human beings which you refer to earlier,

884
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: if if you are then okay with caging children of

885
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: any kind, any kind, or people, especially vulnerable people who

886
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: are seeking refuge. One, I think we need to ask

887
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: the question, did that person, even before those situations came up,

888
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: did they actually ever embrace what they said? They embraced

889
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Is is it a change so much?

890
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: Or had they not actually ever embraced in the Christian sense?

891
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: Did you ever actually study, no, and embrace christ and Christianity.

892
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: If you're now advocating for children and for children to

893
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,399
Speaker 1: be held in cages, you know, did you were you

894
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: ever actually a Christian a disciple of Christ. I think

895
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: that's a question we have to ask and more and

896
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: we need to ask ourselves if if you're in a

897
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: place now where you think that's okay, where you're defending that,

898
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: defending someone who does that, where were you before that?

899
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: What did you who were you before that? What are

900
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: your beliefs? Really? God, that's really interesting and I and

901
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: it leads me to wonder. And I know you mentioned

902
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: the film as an inspiration, but how how does a

903
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: kid who grows up the way that you did, and

904
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: and who who went on a mission trip to Brazil,

905
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: how do you then end up in the CIA. I'm

906
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 1: just like, it's so wild because I think there's such

907
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,720
Speaker 1: beauty in the way that we actually, as complex beings,

908
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: combine where we come from and our families and our

909
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: culture and our history and our faith and all of

910
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: these things, and and this complexity that is you lad

911
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: you to start working for the government in a very

912
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: serious way while you were still in college, right, So

913
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: were you just like a super student? You know? Did

914
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 1: you get recruited or did you go to them? How

915
00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: does that happen? Because that that feels that stuff feel

916
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: to me like like my industry. It feels like Hollywood.

917
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is like a movie, and I need

918
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: to understand. You know, like you were you were in

919
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: Brazil doing service and then suddenly you're like working at

920
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 1: the CIA. What's going on? Yeah? Right? Like some guy

921
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: in a trench coach show up at your door. You know,

922
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: how does it work? Well, I'll tell you that, but

923
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: I will say, you know, so people do wonder about that.

924
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 1: I get it. You know, how can you go from

925
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: being a missionary where you're helping people build homes and

926
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 1: clean things up and you're teaching people, in my case,

927
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: about Jesus Christ. How can you go do that and

928
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: then go on to work for an organization like the

929
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: CIA UM. But you know, I've done different things in life,

930
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,919
Speaker 1: you know. But you know, I was a full time

931
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: although volunteer refugee resettlement officer for the U N and

932
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: Jordan's for a time. I took a year I was

933
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 1: doing study abroad in Israel and Jordan's when I when

934
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: I was late in my college experience and I was

935
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: studying Arabic and also did that work. So I would

936
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 1: work with refugees who had come from Syria and Iraq

937
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: in North Africa and help them find a new home,

938
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: working with a variety of embassies in a mont Jordan's

939
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: And I did that on behalf of the you went,

940
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: but anyway I didn't. So I've done that. Yes, I

941
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: was a missionary. I worked for the CIA. I was also,

942
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, a banker for an investment banker for Goldman Sachs,

943
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: and that was after this, that was after the CIA.

944
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: You were working for the CIA part time in college. Yes,

945
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 1: And I'll come back to that, but I just want

946
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: to make the bigger point that I do believe that

947
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: there's there's a time and a season for things in life,

948
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: and um, we're multifaceted. This idea that we're meant to

949
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: fit in a box, it's so bizarre, that's right, And

950
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 1: certainly in the political world people want to put you

951
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: in a box constantly. The theme that runs through all

952
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: of that is is just that I I've always felt

953
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: compelled to make a difference, and throughout my adolescent you know,

954
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: late adolescent and an adult life, I've mostly done that

955
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: and I'm grateful for the opportunities that I've had to

956
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: do it. Now. The exception has been my time as

957
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: a banker. Now, I'm not one who attacks investment bankers.

958
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: You know, I learned a lot as an investment banker,

959
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: things that are important to know about our economies work.

960
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: But most of my career I've spent working on issues

961
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: that I thought needed work, you know, that needed somebody

962
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: to address them, and and that's always been what's motivated me.

963
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: I have to do work that I care about that

964
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: I think is going to make a positive difference. So

965
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: that's that's the theme that's run through through my my

966
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: professional life. But as far as how I ended up

967
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: working at the CIA, I, uh, you know, when I

968
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: when I was young, probably fourteen years old, you know,

969
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 1: my dad brought home movies from Blockbuster used to rent

970
00:57:54,160 --> 00:58:00,919
Speaker 1: Blockbuster movies at the time, and bluster, yeah, it was great. Um,

971
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 1: and you know, that's what our entertainment was. We didn't

972
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: have a lot of money, so that's what we did.

973
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: We cooked popcorn and watched movies. He brought home three

974
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: days of the condor. I watched it. You know, of

975
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: course it's you know, you know, a story about sort

976
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: of a rogue cell inside the CIA, which is what

977
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: often ci A movies are about, even though it's sort

978
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: of you know, fantastic. But but that, at least on

979
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: that immature level, captured my attention and I started reading

980
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 1: every book I could about the CIA, and uh and

981
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: read really and quite a number of books in the

982
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: in the subsequent couple of years about the organization. Uh.

983
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: And then one summer when I was I think about

984
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: sixteen years old. I decided that I was going to

985
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: reach out and see what kind of opportunities there were

986
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: at the agency. I was ready, I thought, So I

987
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: dialed for one one, because that's how you did it

988
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 1: at the time, to get a number. There was no Internet.

989
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: Couldn't google a number, you know. So I dialed for one,

990
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: and I asked for Langley, Virginia, which is the fictitious

991
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: place where CIA headquarters exists. They couldn't connect me because

992
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: they said that wasn't a place. Finally I figured out

993
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: that it was McClean, Virginia, where the organization actually existed.

994
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: I was ultimately patched through to the agency, and then

995
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: old man picked up the phone and he said hello,

996
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: and I said hello, Is this the CIA? And he

997
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: said who are you calling for? Sir? And I said,

998
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: is this the CIA? And he said, sir, who are

999
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: you calling for? And I got chills in that moment,

1000
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: realizing that indeed I was talking to the CIA, and

1001
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: of course they wouldn't tell me it was the CIA.

1002
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: Um And so I got my wits about me finally

1003
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: and said, I remembered that there was a recruitment center

1004
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: so I said, could I speak with the recruitment center

1005
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: and he said very well, and he connected me to

1006
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,919
Speaker 1: a receptionist and and she answered the phone and said

1007
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: recruitment center. And I started to talk to her, and eventually,

1008
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: in our brief conversation, I mentioned to her that I

1009
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: had a brown belt in taekwondo, and I asked her

1010
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: if that would make me more competitive, and she started laughing,

1011
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: and she said how old are you? And I said,

1012
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm sixteen or whatever it was. She laughed some more

1013
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: and she said, call back when you're older, and so

1014
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: I said, and she was good. She was good about it.

1015
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: So I said fine, hung off the phone and and

1016
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: I waited a couple of weeks, and I was indeed older,

1017
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: and I called for one one again, was patched through,

1018
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: got the you know, the operator, then got the recruitment center.

1019
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: Then when I got to the receptionist to the recruitment center,

1020
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: I asked to speak with a recruitment officer and was

1021
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: connected to someone who gave me a name which I'm

1022
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: sure it wasn't their true name, but i'll you know,

1023
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: not mentioned it here, and and that person uh and

1024
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: I would would be in contact for the next few

1025
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: years as I went through high school, finished high school,

1026
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: you know, did a little bit of college, and went

1027
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: on my mission. Uh, he told me, you know, he

1028
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: gave me advice about whether to join the military or not.

1029
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: I was thinking about joining the Marines, and you know,

1030
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: he gave me advice about that. He you know, told

1031
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 1: me not to carry his name in number with him

1032
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: while I was in Brazil on my mission, because you know,

1033
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 1: he knew that would be a bad idea. And that

1034
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: was great advice because I wasn't there to work for

1035
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: the agency. It was there to volunteer for my church.

1036
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 1: And the long story short is I got back from

1037
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 1: my mission, returned to school, and reconnected with the agency,

1038
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: went through a hiring process where they flew me out.

1039
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm just a sophomore at this point,

1040
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: and they're flying me out to d C a couple

1041
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: of times to be interviewed and to talk to shrinks

1042
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: and and this is their co op program. Yeah, students

1043
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: to work while they're in college. That's right, So I

1044
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: would do a semester. What what ended up happening is I,

1045
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, got through the the interview, the application process.

1046
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: They polygraphed polygraphed me all of this, which for a kid,

1047
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 1: I mean I was in my early twenties the time.

1048
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: I had taken two years to go to Brazil, so

1049
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: I was a little bit older, but I was still young.

1050
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: But anyway, they ended up hiring me into the co

1051
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: op program, which was a program that I believe still exists,

1052
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: I don't know for sure. That allows you to do

1053
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 1: a semester of work and then at at headquarters and

1054
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: then go back to school and then alternate. So that's

1055
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: what I did. I went back and forth between the

1056
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 1: agency's headquarters in school for the rest of my college experience,

1057
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: and it was an incredible experience. And I started out

1058
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: on the analytical side as a student because that's the

1059
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: only they wouldn't allow students into the operational side of

1060
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: the stuff of sensitive information on whatnot. Well we were

1061
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: handling yeah, I mean on the analytical side. I was

1062
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 1: still handling sensitive information, but it was more like I

1063
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: would read the reports of the operatives the intelligence and

1064
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: less like there you know, information about how they did

1065
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: their work which was sensitive. There there their their ways

1066
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: of of operation. Anyway, that's changed. I think they eventually

1067
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: did let students into that but I had known the

1068
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,439
Speaker 1: whole time that I wanted to be on the operational side.

1069
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 1: So as soon as I graduated from college, I went

1070
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: through a process, you know, they took me and I

1071
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: went into training right at nine eleven was happening, and

1072
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: then the rest is history. And so how long then

1073
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: were you in the CIA. I was an employee from

1074
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: May of I think till August of two. Wow, gosh,

1075
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 1: that's a long time. What can you tell us about it?

1076
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: Because I because I know there's probably so much you

1077
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: can't talk about. I don't know if there's something that

1078
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 1: you worked on that's now declassified that you can sort

1079
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: of walk us through or what it's like. I feel

1080
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm about to be on the other end

1081
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: of Like I could tell you, but I'd have to

1082
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: kill you. It's like, how do you talk to people about? Yeah,

1083
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,919
Speaker 1: so actually, there's a lot more that I can talk

1084
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 1: about than can it. I would always say that the

1085
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: stuff that I can't talk about is stuff that you

1086
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: you you wouldn't really care to know. You know, you know,

1087
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: the the names of people who I worked with, either

1088
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: foreigners or Americans. You know, there is some stuff some

1089
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, some tactics, some methods that we use that

1090
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 1: that are of interest of course that you know that

1091
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 1: we protect, that I'll protect that, I'm committed to protecting

1092
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: that I need to protect. But there's a lot out

1093
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: there about sort of you know, the day to day

1094
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: and an operations officer, officers life or an operative which

1095
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 1: is what the media would call us. That is that

1096
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: that I can talk about. And you know, basically what

1097
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: what my job was was to was to convince foreign

1098
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: government officials and members of terrorist organizations and others to

1099
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: to to basically help us achieve our goals. And so

1100
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: in the case of you know, let's say, you know,

1101
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 1: a North Korean or Iranian government official, I would be

1102
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: trying to convince them to spy on behalf of the

1103
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: US government and to work secretly on our behalf under

1104
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: the direction of the CIA. How do you get in

1105
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: front of one such official to even begin this conversation. Well,

1106
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 1: you have a cover. First of all, you're operating undercover,

1107
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 1: and that cover gives you so you have passports with

1108
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: fake names on them. Um, maybe yeah, I'm I'm I'm

1109
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: not sure what I can say that. I'm so excited.

1110
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 1: So you have a cover and are there people assisting

1111
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: you in that cover role in getting in front of

1112
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 1: those officials. Yes, covers can be very um, very well developed,

1113
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: or they can be very thin. If you need to

1114
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: cover to last for a year or two years or

1115
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: three years or four years or five years, better be

1116
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: really well developed and very well protected and back up

1117
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: if you need to cover to last for an hour.

1118
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: And that's another that's a situation that exists, that I

1119
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: was in a lot too. Um then that the cover

1120
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be so so well developed. It can

1121
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: be much thinner, but it serves its purpose for an hour.

1122
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: And so I had all all of those things. Um.

1123
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: It means challenging you. You know you you you need

1124
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: to get used to becoming another person. I mean you,

1125
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: you know it's it's acting really, I mean you. You

1126
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: really have to internalize that you are another person. If

1127
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: you do it well, you internalize that you're another person.

1128
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: Or even better, if you can you draw on threads

1129
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: of yourself that are yourself, but that aren't what people

1130
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: know of you or what they see when they look

1131
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: at you in normal life, but that you know exist.

1132
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: You pull those out of you and you you can

1133
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: become what looks like a different person. You have to

1134
01:06:56,240 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 1: find the truth in it. Does your time serving as

1135
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: an advisor on national security issues for the House Committee

1136
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 1: on Foreign Affairs? Does are there things that you learned

1137
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: during that time period that that help you speak to

1138
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: all of this now? And what was it like doing

1139
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: that Because you went from a career in the CIA

1140
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: into investment banking and then you came back in as

1141
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: this advisor and as a policy director. What did what

1142
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: did that look like? And how do how does that

1143
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 1: experience shape your view of today? That's a great question,

1144
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: and I actually just realized I want to get into

1145
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 1: that question I asked you. But something that I want

1146
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: to ask you. I guess I get so used to

1147
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: having to pretend to be someone else because I do

1148
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: that for a living at work. But when you're doing

1149
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: it in your real life and your work in your

1150
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 1: life bleed over and you're living in foreign countries and

1151
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: you're working undercover, what is that experience like? Who can

1152
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: you tell in your life, in your real life, your

1153
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: home life, who can you tell what you do? What

1154
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:18,759
Speaker 1: can you share with them? And and does the cover

1155
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: story does that create blurred lines with your own life

1156
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: or what? What does that do as to you as

1157
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 1: a person. Yeah, so, you know, thanks for asking. I mean,

1158
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: it's it's a great question. Look, it becomes your life.

1159
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 1: It depends on the kind of cover it is, right,

1160
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if it's a one hour cover, then you know,

1161
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 1: your friends don't never know you were in that cover.

1162
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: If it's a five year cover, ten year cover, then

1163
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: because you're utilizing different covers for different moments. But there

1164
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 1: are some covers that will last quite a long time.

1165
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 1: That is who you are at that point. If you're

1166
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: in this cover for you know, let's call it, you know,

1167
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: a month plus, that is your life. And and then

1168
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: that can go on for years in some cases. And

1169
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: so it is who you you must become. It's who

1170
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: you are now. You may get to continue to be

1171
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: yourself in those situations. In some situations you may not

1172
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,479
Speaker 1: be actually yourself. And maybe that's sort of I don't

1173
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: mean for that to be I mean that you may

1174
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 1: be I may be Evan and now I'm doing X.

1175
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: This is my job. I'm a shoe salesman, you know.

1176
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 1: Or it may be that I'm a completely different person.

1177
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: And that's how I'll say that. So and that either

1178
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: one of those things can go on for for a

1179
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:49,639
Speaker 1: long long time. So how do you keep a tether

1180
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 1: to home? Or do you so? In some cases and

1181
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 1: in some cases, if you're a completely if you become

1182
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: a completely different person, then you are you rarely calling

1183
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 1: your rarely calling home. If ever, if you are going

1184
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 1: to make contact with home, then that you do it

1185
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: in very careful ways and very sparingly. And so there

1186
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: there were periods in my service where I would go

1187
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: very long amounts of time without talking to any friends

1188
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: or family. Yeah, and so and and I had my

1189
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 1: parents knew what I did for a living. My siblings didn't.

1190
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 1: Um My, I had two or three friends who were

1191
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 1: very very close, extremely trusted friends who I I told

1192
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: the truth to and and and I needed to because

1193
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: I needed them to help basically help me cover myself.

1194
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 1: And so they existed. They knew what was going on

1195
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,560
Speaker 1: in my life. And we're able to in our circles

1196
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 1: of friends help me maintain my cover by backing me

1197
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 1: up in my cover and by letting me know when

1198
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 1: there were problems, when somebody was sort of maybe getting curious.

1199
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:09,760
Speaker 1: And so I had a few friends like that, you know,

1200
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: and who would do other things to help me out.

1201
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 1: But they were I'm you know, forever grateful for for

1202
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: them and for what they did for me, and in

1203
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 1: that service, they helped me perform my service to the country.

1204
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 1: But but it's very hard and it's lonely, to be honest,

1205
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 1: and there were times when I mean, first of all,

1206
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: I loved my job. It was always exciting. I never

1207
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,679
Speaker 1: for a second had a sense that what I never

1208
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: wondered and what I am and what I'm doing is

1209
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: it important or is it is it needed? There was

1210
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 1: never a moment, not even a millisecond, when I you know,

1211
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 1: didn't sleep much during those years, but when I would

1212
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 1: get out of bed, I was always excited to get

1213
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 1: after it. And it was always you know, that was

1214
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 1: always always true. There was never a case where that

1215
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 1: wasn't true during that time. But it is also lonely.

1216
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean you're pretending to be someone else on one

1217
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: level or another, and um, you know, you start too

1218
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: long for like basic healthy relationships with your family, you know,

1219
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 1: romantic relationships. I mean there were to try to date

1220
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:15,440
Speaker 1: as a CIA, an undercover CIA officer is very difficult.

1221
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean I felt like it was impossible to date,

1222
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: having to move and be on location for work all

1223
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 1: the time, but I was still myself wherever I lived.

1224
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. It's like, oh my god, what

1225
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,559
Speaker 1: a crazy because the idea of building a relationship with

1226
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: someone is getting to know someone and building a relationship

1227
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: on trust. And when you can't tell someone who you are,

1228
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,920
Speaker 1: that's right, and and it really is a question of

1229
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 1: who you are. Because for me, this was a passion.

1230
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,640
Speaker 1: This was something that I had wanted to do for

1231
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:48,839
Speaker 1: a long time, since I was a kid. I believed

1232
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,719
Speaker 1: in it. Most of my service came after nine eleven,

1233
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: and so you know, there was a lot of important

1234
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: work to be done, and and there was a fire

1235
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: burning in for that work, in that service. And meanwhile,

1236
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:07,679
Speaker 1: you know, while I was dating, I was telling women

1237
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: I was dating that I did another job, And I

1238
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: tried to make it sound as boring as possible because

1239
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: I didn't want them to ask questions about it, because

1240
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 1: I didn't want to have to repeatedly lie to them,

1241
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 1: even though I did, because I had to maintain my cover.

1242
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 1: And so not only was I lined to them about

1243
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: what I did for a living, but they also never

1244
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 1: would know what was in here. You know, I'm pointing

1245
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 1: to my chest, what was burning in there. They didn't

1246
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: know that the real me. And in a couple of cases,

1247
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, this particular relationship shows promise, So I'm

1248
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: going to share the truth about me. And they gave

1249
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 1: us that kind of flexibility at the agency. But if

1250
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: you used if you used that license too much, then

1251
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 1: you would get you you know, you were in trouble.

1252
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 1: So you couldn't do it too much, but you could

1253
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 1: exercise your own If you were going to share with

1254
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: a romantic partner, you had to at least after the fact. Yeah,

1255
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 1: So in a couple of cases I did. I decided, okay,

1256
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 1: this show's promise. You know, I've wanted to be a

1257
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 1: father and a husband for a long time, all right

1258
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,640
Speaker 1: in the agency, that service sort of put that on

1259
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 1: hold for a lot of years, but I still took

1260
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: it seriously and if I could make it happen while

1261
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 1: he was an agency officer, I was going to try

1262
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,639
Speaker 1: to make it happen. And so there were a couple

1263
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:24,639
Speaker 1: of times, as I said, where it showed I thought

1264
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 1: things showed potential. So I decided that I was going

1265
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 1: to tell my girlfriends the truth, and so you know,

1266
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 1: I'd sit them down, and I would say, like, look,

1267
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 1: there's something I need to tell you. And you know,

1268
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: I don't work at X. I work for the Central

1269
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency, and I am undercover and I'm having a

1270
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 1: panic attackt for you, like I'm literally holding the side

1271
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 1: to my face. I'm so anxious. Yeah, and so and

1272
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 1: and so what would end up happening, and those conversations

1273
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: were interesting, and the way they went in both cases,

1274
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 1: We're like this. They at first there was just sort

1275
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 1: of disbelief, and in some cases I had tried to

1276
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 1: gradually like break them into the idea that like, there's

1277
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: something else, you know, like I say, I work at

1278
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: Nordstrom selling selling shoes. Covers were never that, but but

1279
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 1: in reality, there's something else about me, something else that

1280
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: I do trying to help them understand that slowly break

1281
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 1: them into it, and so, but and even and I

1282
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 1: think at least one of the cases they basically figured

1283
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: it out. But when I actually told her then she

1284
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 1: was completely shocked that, oh, my goodness, you know this

1285
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 1: is reality, right, And so at first there was their

1286
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 1: sort of intrigue, which is interesting but not sort of

1287
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 1: what you're going for in those moments. And then and

1288
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: then sort of an appreciation of that expression of truth

1289
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 1: and reality. But and so you think that, Okay, now

1290
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:54,799
Speaker 1: we're going to be part of a circle of trust

1291
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,799
Speaker 1: in that moment. But that's actually not how it worked.

1292
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 1: How it worked was that they would then realized that

1293
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:04,320
Speaker 1: I'd been lying to them for a long time and that,

1294
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: you know, I still couldn't tell them about my day

1295
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:09,520
Speaker 1: to day life because there were I was doing classified

1296
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 1: things on a daily basis, every day, all day long, literally,

1297
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 1: and so they knew where I worked, in the general

1298
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 1: contours of my job, but they did not know what

1299
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 1: I was involved in. So I couldn't come, you know,

1300
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: see them in the evenings and like share my work

1301
01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 1: day with them. And so what I noticed is that

1302
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 1: because I couldn't share, they stopped sharing, you know, the

1303
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 1: the unclassified details of their lives and so and when

1304
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 1: that happens, when you know you you it just spins

1305
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 1: out of control. So it was and I'd go through

1306
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 1: like that's a long story, and I apologize for that,

1307
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 1: but the point is you you make those sacrifices less

1308
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: time with your parents. I mean, you know, my parents

1309
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 1: have just retired. I I missed a decade of their

1310
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,839
Speaker 1: lives of my siblings, lives of of my friends, lives

1311
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:58,960
Speaker 1: you give all of that up. There was a time

1312
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: during my service when I literally longed for the ability

1313
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: to just go to a baseball game. I just wanted

1314
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 1: to sit and watch. Next time, you're I'm a Giants fan,

1315
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say, but I will still enjoy a

1316
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 1: Dodger Yeah you did. Listen. It's like I'm an l

1317
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 1: a sports fan. I lived in Chicago for a long time.

1318
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 1: I went to black Hawks. Yeah, yeah, I'm with when

1319
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 1: you move a lot, you have to Also, Dodger dogs

1320
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 1: are pretty great, so yeah, we Yeah, you feel like

1321
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,599
Speaker 1: you're catching up right, Yeah you do. I mean you're

1322
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 1: catching up on you know, movies that are part of

1323
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 1: the fabric of the country. Now you're catching up on

1324
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: all that stuff. So so, yeah, you do make sacrifices.

1325
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 1: But more than that, I you know, I'll just say

1326
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:49,439
Speaker 1: that I worked for fore and with incredible people at

1327
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:54,360
Speaker 1: the Agency, and I wish so much that all Americans

1328
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 1: could know the Americans I know and and new at

1329
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 1: the Agency. I mean, these are people who sacrifice immensely.

1330
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: These are people who find a way to get the

1331
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:11,720
Speaker 1: impossible done. I mean that is something that you know. Uh,

1332
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 1: I never say I I don't often say it can't

1333
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 1: be done anymore because, first of all, I mean that

1334
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:21,440
Speaker 1: that's just not who I am as a person. But

1335
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:24,400
Speaker 1: but the agency is full of people, especially on the

1336
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: operational side of the house, those who carry out opts,

1337
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 1: covert operations, full of people who find a way to

1338
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: get it done, and and people who are true patriots.

1339
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:38,280
Speaker 1: And and you know, yes, mistakes are made, and I

1340
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: feel like I have to say that because you know,

1341
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 1: some have been made recently in the past decade. But

1342
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, and that's another that's another topic. But I

1343
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 1: wish that all Americans could know the Americans who I

1344
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 1: know and and and we all do. Actually, I'll say

1345
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: we all know somebody who's served in the military, um

1346
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: who's made tremendous sacrifices, who or who has been will

1347
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 1: link to make even greater sacrifices. And I'm talking about

1348
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 1: loss of life and limb and maybe they didn't have

1349
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 1: to give that, and maybe that maybe the damages is

1350
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, that they've experienced is as psychological as in

1351
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:20,640
Speaker 1: the mental health realm. Or maybe they they escaped, you know, unscathed,

1352
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 1: relatively but they still were willing to give all of

1353
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 1: that for the country and and most importantly, for for

1354
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:32,880
Speaker 1: what this country stands for, which is more than you know.

1355
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:35,640
Speaker 1: As much as the President is his movement would like

1356
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 1: us to believe that our country is defined by the

1357
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 1: color of our skin, or by by our religion, or

1358
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: even by the geographic contours of our country. That is

1359
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 1: not what our founders believed. Our founders believe that what

1360
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 1: defines us ultimately is our commitment to our values. And

1361
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:59,160
Speaker 1: that's what the whole country was founded upon, and that's

1362
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:03,000
Speaker 1: what that's what the Americans I served with are fighting for.

1363
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 1: You you touch on and I again, I'm so grateful

1364
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 1: that you've been so publicly open about how you feel

1365
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 1: about these things. And what is so blatantly you would

1366
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:18,440
Speaker 1: imagine obvious. You have called out the president for his racism,

1367
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,560
Speaker 1: for his nationalism, his xenophobia, is courting of white supremacists.

1368
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:29,759
Speaker 1: Do you see those things that blatantly racist, sexist, nationalistic behavior.

1369
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:31,799
Speaker 1: Do you see that as a threat to our national security?

1370
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: I mean it is a threat to our freedom even

1371
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:41,759
Speaker 1: a more fundamental level. This is this is a threat

1372
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:46,599
Speaker 1: to what America is. And you know as soon as

1373
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 1: you have a leader, you know, I mean, it's look,

1374
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: there's a thing that I like to call the authoritarian playbook,

1375
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:56,519
Speaker 1: and it it starts, it all starts with this. It

1376
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 1: all starts with you, as a leader or a figure,

1377
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 1: an authoritarian figure, deciding that you're going to place yourself

1378
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,639
Speaker 1: above the interests of a country and above the interests

1379
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: of the people. And so once you decide to do that,

1380
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:13,639
Speaker 1: then that means that you're going to use You're going

1381
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 1: to pursue office and use your office it should you

1382
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 1: obtain it, to serve yourself rather than the country. And

1383
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:24,719
Speaker 1: so then once you make that decision, then you start

1384
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 1: engaging in real corruption, if you haven't already. And once

1385
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 1: you start engaging in real corruption, you don't want to

1386
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: be held accountable for it. So you start to attack

1387
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: those who will highlight the fact and make public the

1388
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: fact that you're corrupt. So you go after law enforcement.

1389
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:43,240
Speaker 1: So then and you go after the press, and and

1390
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:45,880
Speaker 1: you do that because you don't want to be exposed

1391
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 1: for for the wrong your wrongdoing. You also start to

1392
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:53,160
Speaker 1: attract the very to attack the very notion of truth.

1393
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 1: And you do all that so that you can't be

1394
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 1: held accountable and once you can't be held accountable because

1395
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 1: in practical terms, people consider there to be no truth,

1396
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 1: then you can and and no virtue. Then you can

1397
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:15,559
Speaker 1: start attacking. You can your attacks get even stronger against

1398
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:18,759
Speaker 1: the institutions that would hold you accountable. So you start.

1399
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 1: You can you know, fire senior members of law enforcement.

1400
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 1: You can put in loyalists into those positions who will

1401
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 1: protect you. Um, you can invite foreign interference into our

1402
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 1: country to manipulate the outcomes of our our political systems

1403
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:39,320
Speaker 1: are elections. Uh, you can do all of that and

1404
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 1: your your you know, you have carte blanche because you can't.

1405
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:45,600
Speaker 1: You're not being held accountable because of the steps that

1406
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 1: you've already taken. This is the path that we are

1407
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:54,719
Speaker 1: on as a country under President Trump's leadership. And again

1408
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:57,120
Speaker 1: I hate to use that word leadership, but it's but

1409
01:22:57,280 --> 01:22:59,519
Speaker 1: that's this is the path that we are on. It

1410
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:02,600
Speaker 1: is a path that other countries have experienced. It is

1411
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:06,840
Speaker 1: a path that is hard to get off of. And

1412
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:10,639
Speaker 1: and I and I pray that we will wake up quickly.

1413
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 1: And I think many of us understand the threat. And again,

1414
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 1: a majority of Americans are standing up to the president,

1415
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 1: which encourages me. But I hope that we have a

1416
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:23,600
Speaker 1: free and fair election in twenty where the voice of

1417
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 1: the people is truly heard. But I am worried that

1418
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,760
Speaker 1: that may not be the case because that wasn't the

1419
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: case in and the incentives are such that it very

1420
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: well may not be the case in. Things may look

1421
01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 1: a little different. Trump and the Russians and perhaps the

1422
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 1: Saudis and others do maybe a little bit different. But

1423
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: you know, they're learning to They're evolving, They're evolving. We're

1424
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:53,360
Speaker 1: not doing much in terms of evolving on this front.

1425
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:56,759
Speaker 1: They are evolving a lot um. But I'm I'm worried

1426
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,200
Speaker 1: about that. What do you think, again, as a uson

1427
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:06,360
Speaker 1: who comes from a historically more conservative background, who's willing

1428
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 1: to call out issues like racism and sexism, which are

1429
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 1: oddly becoming polarized and also shouldn't be bipartisan problems, what

1430
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 1: do you think is important for the Conservative Party to

1431
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:24,880
Speaker 1: do to fight those things, to uplift communities of color

1432
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:28,640
Speaker 1: in America, to uplift women in America. You know, why,

1433
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: why are we acting as though those are liberal ideas

1434
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:36,679
Speaker 1: rather than ideas rooted in equality, which should be bipartisan. Yeah,

1435
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 1: you know, in my You know, when I people ask

1436
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: me do you still consider yourself a conservative? I always

1437
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,080
Speaker 1: say yes. And you know, I've been in the public

1438
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 1: life now since and haven't changed on that. And for

1439
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:52,679
Speaker 1: me what conservative conservatives, conservatism has always meant, even before,

1440
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:55,960
Speaker 1: sort of like the public part of my life has

1441
01:24:56,000 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 1: always meant conserving our fundamental values, which are liberty and equality.

1442
01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:05,439
Speaker 1: In my mind, those are the two ideas, the observations

1443
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 1: that our founders made that yes, they implemented imperfectly, but

1444
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:16,080
Speaker 1: those are the essential observations um of of of essential, enduring,

1445
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 1: natural truths that I think are worth conserving. Therefore I'm

1446
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:26,599
Speaker 1: a conservative. Now, Progressives and liberals might say, well, they

1447
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 1: may feel okay, well I agree with that, but I'm

1448
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 1: more interested in advancing them, and I'm interested in advancing

1449
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:34,479
Speaker 1: them too. But I think it's you know, there have

1450
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 1: been some studies done where there's actually like a personality

1451
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 1: difference between people who consider themselves conservatives and liberals. Like

1452
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:45,839
Speaker 1: conservatives tend to be a little slower to change in general,

1453
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:49,120
Speaker 1: even in their personal lives. Liberals are progressives are just

1454
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 1: more open to new things, you know. So I may

1455
01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 1: just be that kind of person where I'm just you know,

1456
01:25:55,840 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm a little maybe a slower mover on change, you know,

1457
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: in my own personal life. And I but you know,

1458
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 1: I do you know, I'm not entirely sort of like that.

1459
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:07,640
Speaker 1: I don't mean to give that impression, but I do

1460
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 1: like to you know, always be progressing as a human being.

1461
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: But but I will say that that's why I'm a conservative,

1462
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:16,599
Speaker 1: because I think these things have to be preserved and

1463
01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:21,479
Speaker 1: protected but also advanced. And you know, you asked, you know,

1464
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:25,040
Speaker 1: what should the Republican Party do? What would a conservative

1465
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 1: party do? Well, first of all, embrace those values on

1466
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 1: a philosophical level. I don't think that's any longer the case.

1467
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 1: And I feel a little bit naive and in a

1468
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 1: sense that you know, I always thought we actually believed

1469
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 1: in these things, you know, in the on the Republican side,

1470
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:46,280
Speaker 1: that you know, we did that we believe that all

1471
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 1: human beings were equal, that we believe that we were

1472
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 1: inherently free and all of this, you know. And I

1473
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:55,280
Speaker 1: think that there are some less elected leaders, but more

1474
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, other you know, anti Trump Republicans and Conservatives

1475
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:01,799
Speaker 1: who who genuinely do believe that. But but I also

1476
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 1: think that, uh, that many of our conservative leaders in

1477
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,639
Speaker 1: this country grew to just pay lip service to those

1478
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 1: things and not to mean it. And you know, we

1479
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to go too much into

1480
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:18,280
Speaker 1: in the history, and I won't, but people know about

1481
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 1: the Southern strategy, which if you haven't heard of the

1482
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 1: Southern strategy, I'm speaking to our listeners, you know, I

1483
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:26,599
Speaker 1: encourage them to to, you know, do a little reading

1484
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:28,640
Speaker 1: about the Southern strategy. But it was basically when the

1485
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:32,680
Speaker 1: Republican Party decided decades ago that you know, when the

1486
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:36,080
Speaker 1: civil rights movement was moving along and progressing and having success,

1487
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 1: and they the Republican Party learned that there were a

1488
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 1: bunch of racist democrats in the South who weren't happy

1489
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 1: with the advancements of the civil rights movement. And so

1490
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:49,160
Speaker 1: the Republican leadership at the time said, you know what

1491
01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:51,040
Speaker 1: we can do. We can go down and win those

1492
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:55,439
Speaker 1: votes by signaling to those you know, to those racist

1493
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 1: democrats in the South that you know, they ought to

1494
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: come over to the Republican side because we were okay

1495
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 1: with that, you know, that was that was the plan.

1496
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 1: But to send those signals in a way that wouldn't

1497
01:28:05,240 --> 01:28:07,960
Speaker 1: turn off the moderate Republicans in the North, those who

1498
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 1: truly were sort of in the in the you know

1499
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 1: the link on Ian you know, realm of Republicanism, which

1500
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:18,679
Speaker 1: was to to fight for equality, and so ever since

1501
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 1: the Republican Party embraced that strategy, you know, we brought

1502
01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:25,160
Speaker 1: into the party people who don't embrace those values. So

1503
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:28,200
Speaker 1: the first thing is embracing those philosophically. But I think

1504
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:30,880
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform is one of those things, and I

1505
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: know that that has actually that's been one of the

1506
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 1: few things that has advanced in Washington under the Trump presidency.

1507
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:43,200
Speaker 1: He has signed into into law, you know, you know,

1508
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:45,760
Speaker 1: reform on that front. It's a start. More needs to

1509
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:48,720
Speaker 1: be done, but I do think criminal justice reform is

1510
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:52,439
Speaker 1: one of those things. It uh anyway, it's one of

1511
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 1: those things, without getting too deep into it, another one

1512
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:57,440
Speaker 1: of those things that I think we have to realize

1513
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 1: that like look at you know, I it perplexes me

1514
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 1: a little bit when I hear people on the right

1515
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:12,000
Speaker 1: not recognize that if you're great grandparents or your grandparents

1516
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 1: were actual slaves, that maybe the impact of that goes

1517
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 1: through generations and that maybe you know it, you know,

1518
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:28,480
Speaker 1: maybe that it impacts you know, your life living today,

1519
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:33,360
Speaker 1: if your grandmother and grandfather or great grandfather and mother

1520
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 1: were slaves, it impacts you today? How does it impact you? Well,

1521
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:40,719
Speaker 1: I think we take for granted those of us, even

1522
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 1: you know, I had a challenging upbringing in the sense

1523
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:45,080
Speaker 1: that we didn't have everything we needed all the time,

1524
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:48,559
Speaker 1: but I certainly had it a lot better than than

1525
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:50,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people do. And I especially look at

1526
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 1: some of our minority communities, especially the African American community,

1527
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 1: at least my family. Basically, you know, we had we

1528
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:03,799
Speaker 1: knew how, we knew how the system worked in ways

1529
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:08,600
Speaker 1: because it had worked for us. Generally, it was designed

1530
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 1: for us that came with an advantage. Even as we

1531
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:15,880
Speaker 1: struggled as a young family, we still had these advantages

1532
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 1: and we still knew how, you know, knew how the

1533
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:20,439
Speaker 1: system could work for us because it was designed for us.

1534
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,559
Speaker 1: I you know, it's it's sort of perplexing to me

1535
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 1: when sometimes people conservatives or Republicans, I hate to call

1536
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 1: them conservatives, but Republicans can't see how, look, we we

1537
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:37,720
Speaker 1: hold people as slaves for generations. You know, they're you know,

1538
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:41,640
Speaker 1: their family after that is going to struggle under some

1539
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 1: of that for because of that, For a while, and

1540
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 1: and I think it's important for us to figure out

1541
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 1: a way to counter that in real time now. And

1542
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 1: that's where we can have a lot of policy debates

1543
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 1: about how to do that, but I think we have

1544
01:30:57,160 --> 01:30:59,720
Speaker 1: to do that. And so I remember coming to d

1545
01:30:59,800 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 1: C as a as a college student, as a young

1546
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:08,840
Speaker 1: CIA officer in training, and um, you know, I I remember,

1547
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:11,799
Speaker 1: you know, driving across the country in my little car

1548
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:16,680
Speaker 1: and it was bugs everywhere, splattered all across the car.

1549
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:18,080
Speaker 1: The first thing I needed to do is get a

1550
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:21,080
Speaker 1: car wash. I arrived in d C. I had grown

1551
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:24,040
Speaker 1: up in the Seattle area. Aside from Sir mix a lot,

1552
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,639
Speaker 1: there were no African Americans or where I grew up.

1553
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't used to seeing them at school. I mean

1554
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 1: it was a pretty white community. Um. And so I

1555
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:36,599
Speaker 1: get to d C and I noticed a few quick

1556
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 1: a few things immediately. The first thing is I drive

1557
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 1: my car to the car wash and I go drive

1558
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 1: through the car washed and on the other end of

1559
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:48,080
Speaker 1: the car wash were for African American men there to

1560
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:51,800
Speaker 1: dry my car. And I just thought to myself, wait

1561
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:55,960
Speaker 1: a second, like, why what are the odds that for

1562
01:31:56,160 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 1: African American men are the ones drying my car. Why

1563
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:04,080
Speaker 1: isn't it sort of a mix that reflects the population here,

1564
01:32:04,200 --> 01:32:07,240
Speaker 1: Why is it for African American men? And that was

1565
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 1: a wake up call to me coming from you know,

1566
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 1: basically a white community in Washington State. Well, and you've

1567
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 1: pointed to it that it's the generational ripple effective oppression.

1568
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:21,799
Speaker 1: That's right, that you might move farther and farther away

1569
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:28,679
Speaker 1: from your grandparents. Are great grandparents being slaves in this country?

1570
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:34,320
Speaker 1: If they were, But it's not like when slavery was abolished,

1571
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 1: everyone was suddenly equal and and people today seem to

1572
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:40,640
Speaker 1: want to behave as though that's true. And if I

1573
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:42,840
Speaker 1: hear one more person use that phrase pull yourself up

1574
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: by your bootstraps, it's like, but not everybody has the

1575
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 1: same boots. Not everybody has straps to their boots, exactly.

1576
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 1: And when people were denied mortgages, and when they were

1577
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 1: pushed into ghettos in metropolitan cities, and when people have

1578
01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: been historically pressed into underfunded school zones where then they're

1579
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 1: they're in literal opportunity deserts, we can't act as though

1580
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:06,320
Speaker 1: we've all had at the same absolutely right, and that's

1581
01:33:06,360 --> 01:33:09,760
Speaker 1: exactly right, And that's the same thought I had you

1582
01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 1: in when I arrived in d C at first and

1583
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:17,360
Speaker 1: and made that second observation, which was all the African

1584
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 1: Americans essentially lived in, you know, two quadrants of Washington,

1585
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,439
Speaker 1: d C. And all of the white people lived in

1586
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 1: this third quadrant, and in this fourth quadrant there weren't

1587
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:32,400
Speaker 1: many people at all living. But but the point is,

1588
01:33:32,439 --> 01:33:34,920
Speaker 1: I just thought, my goodness, like, why is it that

1589
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:38,120
Speaker 1: all the African Americans live in this part of town

1590
01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 1: and all the white people live in another part of town?

1591
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 1: And of course the you know, the part of town

1592
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 1: where all the white people lived as the affluent part

1593
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: of town, and then the rest is really struggling. And yeah,

1594
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:53,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's when you see it in those dark terms,

1595
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:54,720
Speaker 1: when you didn't grow up with that, and all of

1596
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:57,800
Speaker 1: a sudden you go see that, you say, boy, we've

1597
01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:00,840
Speaker 1: we've got a ways to go as a country. And

1598
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:02,960
Speaker 1: and you know, there are people in the country now

1599
01:34:03,160 --> 01:34:05,920
Speaker 1: who who view that as the idea that we need

1600
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:08,479
Speaker 1: to do more for others as a threat to to

1601
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:11,080
Speaker 1: the to them and to what they have. And and

1602
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 1: I want to say that, you know, African American people

1603
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:16,000
Speaker 1: are not the only people struggling in this country. We

1604
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:18,520
Speaker 1: have others who are struggling to there are white communities

1605
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 1: struggling as well. But what we have to make sure,

1606
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:23,720
Speaker 1: I think, is to first of all, we shouldn't be

1607
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 1: defining ourselves by color. That's not how I believe God

1608
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 1: defines us. It's not It doesn't indicate our value either way. Um,

1609
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:35,559
Speaker 1: But I think some people are who are struggling in

1610
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:39,479
Speaker 1: the country. They you know, and this is this happens

1611
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:42,240
Speaker 1: in every country. When times are tough, you sort of

1612
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:45,760
Speaker 1: look around and you say, you put people into the

1613
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:49,080
Speaker 1: category of other and you blame them for challenges that

1614
01:34:49,160 --> 01:34:51,960
Speaker 1: you're facing. And something I do think is important to

1615
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 1: at least acknowledge, and I do agree with you. I

1616
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 1: think that segmenting is not helpful for us. But I

1617
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 1: also think we can't be blind to the segment that

1618
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:04,479
Speaker 1: is caused by our society. And for whatever, for whatever

1619
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 1: way that God or the universe or whatever you want

1620
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,559
Speaker 1: to call it, looks at us as a human people.

1621
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:12,960
Speaker 1: We have built a system that is not equananimous for

1622
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:17,600
Speaker 1: all humans. We've built a system that does systematically and

1623
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:21,280
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly oppress people based on the tone of their skin.

1624
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:26,480
Speaker 1: And I think that should make us even more motivated

1625
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:31,320
Speaker 1: to change this system, because again, as we've been talking about,

1626
01:35:31,360 --> 01:35:34,080
Speaker 1: the system doesn't match the ideals on which it was

1627
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:40,479
Speaker 1: meant to be created. And you know, there are mining

1628
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 1: communities of predominantly white people in Appalachia that are suffering

1629
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:49,040
Speaker 1: tremendously because of the corporations that are taking advantage of

1630
01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:52,920
Speaker 1: the land and paying people such terrible wages that entire

1631
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:55,080
Speaker 1: communities live on the poverty line and are exposed to

1632
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:59,640
Speaker 1: environmental toxins, and and those people need our help to

1633
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: and I and I don't think anyone in a in

1634
01:36:03,200 --> 01:36:05,720
Speaker 1: a community of struggle wants to talk about being privileged,

1635
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 1: but I think that the inherent privilege is just that,

1636
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:10,639
Speaker 1: regardless of how hard your life is, and it might

1637
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 1: be the hardest your your skin color hasn't made it harder.

1638
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 1: Your skin color for us, at least, sitting here having

1639
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:18,639
Speaker 1: this conversation doesn't make us more likely to get shot

1640
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 1: by the police. And you know, I say that, and

1641
01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 1: I feel like I must acknowledge that truth. And I

1642
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 1: also say that as a person who comes from a

1643
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:31,439
Speaker 1: military family, who who spent half a decade working with

1644
01:36:31,479 --> 01:36:33,720
Speaker 1: the police and SWAT, who has been on many a

1645
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 1: USO trip who is a big supporter of our military

1646
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:42,520
Speaker 1: and who is absolutely like on my knees and gratitude

1647
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 1: to our intelligence community, and trying to create content to

1648
01:36:45,840 --> 01:36:49,320
Speaker 1: honor those people and their complexity. But I also think

1649
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 1: that if we're going to look at the ideals of

1650
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:52,599
Speaker 1: what it means to be a public servant, we have

1651
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:54,840
Speaker 1: to look at the fact that in certain areas of

1652
01:36:54,840 --> 01:36:58,240
Speaker 1: our public service there are problems. You know, there are

1653
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 1: there are incredible military officials who deserve to be recognized

1654
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:06,400
Speaker 1: as heroes, and then there are military officials who lost

1655
01:37:06,439 --> 01:37:08,960
Speaker 1: the pot and have been abusive in the communities they

1656
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:11,160
Speaker 1: work in, who don't deserve to be pardoned by the president.

1657
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:14,360
Speaker 1: There are incredible men and women on our police force

1658
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:16,720
Speaker 1: around the country who sign up because they want to

1659
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:19,040
Speaker 1: protect their cities. And then we have badge bullies who

1660
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:22,680
Speaker 1: need to be eradicated, who are members of racist and

1661
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:25,559
Speaker 1: white supremacist Facebook groups in every state in the nation.

1662
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 1: You know, we we need to acknowledge, as we have

1663
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:32,680
Speaker 1: been trying to do with the larger idea of our constitution.

1664
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:35,960
Speaker 1: We need to acknowledge the systems that we're meant to

1665
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:40,080
Speaker 1: be wonderful that have cracks, and we need to patch

1666
01:37:40,120 --> 01:37:42,559
Speaker 1: the cracks. We need to we need to figure out

1667
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:47,320
Speaker 1: how to create more equality for everyone. Yes, I I

1668
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:49,360
Speaker 1: agree with that, and I want to be clear that

1669
01:37:49,479 --> 01:37:51,679
Speaker 1: you know, when I refer to when we talk about

1670
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:56,000
Speaker 1: these communities in Appalachia that are really struggling, I don't

1671
01:37:56,280 --> 01:37:59,879
Speaker 1: mean to say that, you know, you know, look, African

1672
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,599
Speaker 1: Amricans are struggling, and they're struggling too, and the two

1673
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:04,920
Speaker 1: are the same. What I meant to say on that

1674
01:38:05,040 --> 01:38:09,560
Speaker 1: is just that you know, when these communities, these predominantly

1675
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:13,559
Speaker 1: white communities, struggle, then and this is just it's all,

1676
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:16,799
Speaker 1: It's commonly the case, and not our only in our country,

1677
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 1: but in other countries. When you struggle, you start to

1678
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:21,280
Speaker 1: look at others and you start to blame others, right,

1679
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:24,120
Speaker 1: And so I think that and our government is encouraging

1680
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:27,799
Speaker 1: that our our our our government is our our leaders

1681
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:31,760
Speaker 1: are many of them. But but I but that that

1682
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 1: sort of makes it all more of a challenge, and

1683
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:38,320
Speaker 1: that we've because we went through a tough time economically

1684
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:41,320
Speaker 1: fairly recently and some people are still going through that,

1685
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:46,000
Speaker 1: we've started to do that othering thing, and that has

1686
01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:50,240
Speaker 1: made problems of racism in the United States even worse.

1687
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:53,639
Speaker 1: But but I want to make sure that that people

1688
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,240
Speaker 1: understand that I'm you know, I'm not comparing sort of

1689
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,679
Speaker 1: the struggles of those people to the struggle of people

1690
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:03,800
Speaker 1: who are facing challenges because of the color of their

1691
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:07,479
Speaker 1: skin and because they come from families that were slaves,

1692
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:13,320
Speaker 1: that were enslaved generations ago. That is a you know,

1693
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:16,879
Speaker 1: that is a unique challenge in our in our country

1694
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 1: that you know, they're experiencing firsthand, and that we need

1695
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 1: to find a unique solution to in real time. And

1696
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:27,680
Speaker 1: and that's just something real It just pains me. It

1697
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:30,439
Speaker 1: just shouldn't be the case where you know, a poor

1698
01:39:30,439 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 1: neighborhood in Washington, d C. Is all African American and

1699
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:37,200
Speaker 1: a f an affluent neighborhood is all white, you know.

1700
01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:39,680
Speaker 1: I mean that's in Washington, d C. And in other

1701
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:42,840
Speaker 1: countries around the other cities around the country. That's the case.

1702
01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:46,360
Speaker 1: We need to find a way and again, like how

1703
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:48,439
Speaker 1: to do it, there are so there are lots of ideas,

1704
01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:53,360
Speaker 1: but we need to at least first more of us

1705
01:39:54,320 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 1: acknowledge that, you know, given that unique history, we have

1706
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:05,200
Speaker 1: got to find a way to to uh to to

1707
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 1: get past that and to help those communities get past that.

1708
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:11,720
Speaker 1: And I when I say communities in this sense, I'm

1709
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 1: talking about the broader African American community. I really appreciate

1710
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:19,240
Speaker 1: you acknowledging that there's a lot of conservatives who won't

1711
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:23,519
Speaker 1: and I think that's something that makes me feel hopeful.

1712
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:25,680
Speaker 1: You know, we've touched on the things that are incredibly

1713
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:30,400
Speaker 1: frightening and for good reason. But I also appreciate that

1714
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:34,240
Speaker 1: there's been many moments of what feels hopeful in the

1715
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:37,840
Speaker 1: conversation and and when people are really willing to just

1716
01:40:38,000 --> 01:40:42,880
Speaker 1: look at what society needs from a human perspective rather

1717
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:45,600
Speaker 1: than a party perspective. You know, I always say I

1718
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:48,519
Speaker 1: think America lives much more in e ven diagram between

1719
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:49,880
Speaker 1: the blue and the red. I think we're all a

1720
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:53,600
Speaker 1: lot more purple than we acknowledge we are. And I

1721
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:56,640
Speaker 1: wish that. I wish that we got to have conversations

1722
01:40:56,640 --> 01:40:59,080
Speaker 1: from that space more and maybe ours will inspire something. Yeah,

1723
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:02,840
Speaker 1: I hope so, um, would you ever run again? I

1724
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:07,040
Speaker 1: do think I'll pursue public office again. Uh not? You

1725
01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:09,720
Speaker 1: know you got my vote? All right? Well, thank you.

1726
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:14,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I you know, It's not something that

1727
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:17,240
Speaker 1: I you know, I didn't think it would happen the

1728
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:20,320
Speaker 1: way it did in sixteen. You know, I've for a

1729
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:22,640
Speaker 1: while felt that I might pursue public office, but I

1730
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 1: thought it would be, you know, maybe in my late

1731
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 1: fifties sort of maybe the last thing I do professionally. Um,

1732
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:33,160
Speaker 1: I never, I never do you. I'm like, you know,

1733
01:41:33,880 --> 01:41:37,320
Speaker 1: eventually I would do that, Okay, I don't feel ready now.

1734
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: I have, like you know, I have things I want

1735
01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:42,160
Speaker 1: to do for my own life before my life officially

1736
01:41:42,200 --> 01:41:45,120
Speaker 1: belongs to other people. But yeah, and that's part of

1737
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:48,040
Speaker 1: it for me too, is that I would I really

1738
01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:51,719
Speaker 1: would love to be a husband and a father before

1739
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:55,280
Speaker 1: I do that again. And the other thing is that,

1740
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:59,479
Speaker 1: you know, I believe that there there are certain things

1741
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:02,719
Speaker 1: you can do a private person that are more difficult

1742
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:06,680
Speaker 1: to do as a as an elected person elected an

1743
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:09,800
Speaker 1: elected official, and certain ways to make a difference that

1744
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:13,680
Speaker 1: that are easier as a private person. And and I

1745
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:17,559
Speaker 1: enjoy having that flexibility now where I can focus solely

1746
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 1: on issues that I think are critical to the defense

1747
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:25,120
Speaker 1: of our democracy. And when you're an elected official, I

1748
01:42:25,120 --> 01:42:27,679
Speaker 1: mean you should certainly do a lot of that too.

1749
01:42:28,080 --> 01:42:30,599
Speaker 1: But then you're also you know, on the you're also

1750
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 1: responsible for a range of other issues that are really

1751
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:38,000
Speaker 1: important but aren't actually aren't the sort of defense of

1752
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:41,519
Speaker 1: the foundation of our democracy. And because you have more

1753
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 1: tasks to manage and do and more responsibilities issues that's

1754
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:50,720
Speaker 1: local issues exactly. And and I I feel very strongly

1755
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:53,120
Speaker 1: that what I'm doing now is is what I need

1756
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:54,720
Speaker 1: to be doing, is the right thing for me to

1757
01:42:54,760 --> 01:42:56,720
Speaker 1: be doing. And are you referencing your work with Stand

1758
01:42:56,800 --> 01:43:00,599
Speaker 1: Up Republic? Yes, and tell everyone who's listening aboutization, because

1759
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:04,519
Speaker 1: it's so amazing. Yeah. So Stand Up Republic is a

1760
01:43:04,520 --> 01:43:09,800
Speaker 1: cross part as an organization that invites conservatives, independence and

1761
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:13,640
Speaker 1: liberals progressives to join in the fight to help to

1762
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:17,719
Speaker 1: protect our and improve our democracy. Uh. And so that's

1763
01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:20,719
Speaker 1: the work that we do. We have organizations around the state,

1764
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:23,960
Speaker 1: organizations around the country. You know, we have members in

1765
01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:28,439
Speaker 1: every state, in every congressional district, and we organize to

1766
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:32,360
Speaker 1: try to defend what we need to defend to to

1767
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:35,400
Speaker 1: protect our democracy. But it can't just stop there. We

1768
01:43:35,479 --> 01:43:38,559
Speaker 1: have to also improve our democracy. And we've been talking

1769
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:42,839
Speaker 1: about that today too. And you know, it's important, for example,

1770
01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:46,040
Speaker 1: that we make our elections freer and fair so that

1771
01:43:46,080 --> 01:43:49,360
Speaker 1: more people can participate, so that voters are empowered to

1772
01:43:49,479 --> 01:43:53,720
Speaker 1: fully you know, state their preferences. Go ahead, and how

1773
01:43:53,720 --> 01:43:57,439
Speaker 1: do you feel about the electoral college. Well, something that's

1774
01:43:57,439 --> 01:43:59,960
Speaker 1: hard for me is to understand that my vote counts

1775
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 1: less than someone else's in a in a society where

1776
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:07,840
Speaker 1: we're all meant to be equal. That's a tough thing. Yeah,

1777
01:44:07,880 --> 01:44:13,640
Speaker 1: I gerrymandering is, like, it's really tough to realize that

1778
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:15,920
Speaker 1: there are powers that be that are really trying to

1779
01:44:16,760 --> 01:44:19,920
Speaker 1: make some people countless than other people. What do you

1780
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:24,880
Speaker 1: think we do about that? From your stand up republic perspective? Yeah,

1781
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 1: so on on Jerrymanderin, we're also you know, working against that.

1782
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:32,760
Speaker 1: We're working so Jerrymanderin, you know where you know, elected

1783
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:37,040
Speaker 1: officials redraw the district lines so that so in such

1784
01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 1: a way that their party can never be defeated in

1785
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:44,320
Speaker 1: that district, essentially choosing their constituents rather than their constituents

1786
01:44:44,400 --> 01:44:48,760
Speaker 1: choosing them. That is not a democracy, But it is.

1787
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:52,599
Speaker 1: It absolutely is, and it's you know, it's it's done,

1788
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:57,360
Speaker 1: and it's true that both parties do it. Republicans you know,

1789
01:44:57,640 --> 01:44:59,400
Speaker 1: do it. You know, We've spent a lot of time

1790
01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:02,880
Speaker 1: looking at North Carolina recently were active there, UM Democrats

1791
01:45:02,880 --> 01:45:07,080
Speaker 1: in Maryland, UM, there are more egregious examples of it.

1792
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 1: I think the Republicans are fighting harder to protect jerrymandering

1793
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 1: right now. Democrats are friendly to more friendly to reforming it.

1794
01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:19,240
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, that's something that we're fighting for. Independent committees

1795
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:24,600
Speaker 1: that will draw those lines based on you know, transparent

1796
01:45:25,439 --> 01:45:30,640
Speaker 1: formulas and and and processes that that are fair and

1797
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:35,759
Speaker 1: that create cohesive units for districts that that that makes

1798
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:39,280
Speaker 1: sense for those communities, rather than to ensure that a

1799
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 1: certain party is always winning the elections. Because once you

1800
01:45:42,479 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 1: have that, you don't have truly accountable government. And and

1801
01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:48,640
Speaker 1: that's part of the reason we ended up in this

1802
01:45:48,720 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 1: space is that there's not real competition in a lot

1803
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:56,240
Speaker 1: of congressional districts. It's really just about, you know, the

1804
01:45:56,280 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 1: primary fight for the Republican like who who's who's going

1805
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 1: to win Republican primary, and that's who's going to represent

1806
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:05,120
Speaker 1: the district because the lines have been drawn such that

1807
01:46:05,160 --> 01:46:08,160
Speaker 1: a Democrat can never win, or in Maryland, a Republican

1808
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:10,360
Speaker 1: can never win. In that kind of thing. What we

1809
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,640
Speaker 1: need is real competition between those two parties between the

1810
01:46:13,640 --> 01:46:16,800
Speaker 1: two parties, and and I think I'm confident that the

1811
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:20,280
Speaker 1: best ideas ultimately went out, but we worked very hard

1812
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:22,960
Speaker 1: on that. The other thing, I mean, you mentioned the

1813
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:26,320
Speaker 1: electoral college. A lot of people are very opposed to

1814
01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 1: the electoral college. I would say that the electoral college

1815
01:46:29,560 --> 01:46:32,920
Speaker 1: is not serving the purpose that it was intended to serve,

1816
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:35,800
Speaker 1: which was actually in part to be a check on

1817
01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:38,920
Speaker 1: the people, because sometimes you know, as much as sort

1818
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:42,240
Speaker 1: of our wills is being threatened right now, you know,

1819
01:46:42,760 --> 01:46:44,960
Speaker 1: there are times when the will of the people is

1820
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:49,080
Speaker 1: actually not right, can actually become quite dangerous, where you know,

1821
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:53,920
Speaker 1: a majority of Americans could want to do something quite terrible.

1822
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:57,519
Speaker 1: We've done it in the past, and and we're not unique.

1823
01:46:57,520 --> 01:47:01,320
Speaker 1: Other other countries, other populations are vulnerable to that. Sometimes

1824
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 1: a bad idea gainst temporary prominence and popularity, and we

1825
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:11,760
Speaker 1: can do terrible things to minorities exactly, and you know,

1826
01:47:11,880 --> 01:47:14,959
Speaker 1: and and and slavery you know, in our own country,

1827
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:19,720
Speaker 1: and and so we you know, the electoral college is

1828
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:22,200
Speaker 1: is there to sort of be a check on the

1829
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:27,800
Speaker 1: popular mob mentality that can develop in societies. But what's

1830
01:47:27,840 --> 01:47:31,919
Speaker 1: happened is we don't have electors in the Electoral College

1831
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:36,320
Speaker 1: who are acting as freely as as they should be

1832
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:40,160
Speaker 1: empowered to act, and so it no longer really serves

1833
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:42,479
Speaker 1: its purpose. It could have served a purpose in protecting

1834
01:47:42,479 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 1: the country against President Trump, it didn't do that, and

1835
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:48,559
Speaker 1: that's a sign that it's not serving its purpose. So

1836
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:51,320
Speaker 1: I but I I do think it it serves a purpose,

1837
01:47:51,320 --> 01:47:53,479
Speaker 1: but I think we need to strengthen its ability to

1838
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:56,519
Speaker 1: serve that purpose so that it does act on a

1839
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:00,840
Speaker 1: check against the mob mentality and dangerous impulses of a

1840
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:05,479
Speaker 1: majority that could take action against vulnerable minorities. But the

1841
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 1: other thing about it is that I think that you know,

1842
01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:13,720
Speaker 1: we're we're a federal system of government governance meanings that

1843
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:16,639
Speaker 1: meaning that we're a collection of states where the United

1844
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:23,080
Speaker 1: States of America and you know states, we're not organized

1845
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:28,720
Speaker 1: as one centrally controlled nation, were organized in states, and

1846
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:32,760
Speaker 1: each of those states have a voice and want to

1847
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:37,759
Speaker 1: make sure that voice has some impact. You know, Utah,

1848
01:48:38,360 --> 01:48:42,360
Speaker 1: for example, is a state that has only six member

1849
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:45,519
Speaker 1: or electors to the Electoral College. It's not not much,

1850
01:48:46,240 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 1: but in a popular a national popular vote scenario, Utah

1851
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:55,160
Speaker 1: would have essentially very little if any real say and

1852
01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:58,759
Speaker 1: who was our president or even less so, even less

1853
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:02,160
Speaker 1: populous states would basically have no say and who was

1854
01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:06,160
Speaker 1: elected president. And that isn't gonna work either, And so

1855
01:49:06,360 --> 01:49:10,760
Speaker 1: the Electoral College addresses that. But I do understand that,

1856
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:13,680
Speaker 1: look the frustration that we feel where we have, you know,

1857
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:17,599
Speaker 1: a president who was eleven million more Americans voted for

1858
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:21,679
Speaker 1: someone else other than President Trump. Hillary Clinton defeated Trump

1859
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 1: in the popular vote by three million votes, yet we

1860
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:27,120
Speaker 1: still have President Trump. I I think we need to

1861
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:30,960
Speaker 1: address that. On the you know, on the foreign interference level,

1862
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:35,320
Speaker 1: we have you know, foreign adversary who that that manipulated

1863
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:39,439
Speaker 1: the entire tone and tentor of the sixteen campaign, and

1864
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:43,920
Speaker 1: that you know, hacked the president's opponents and dumped that

1865
01:49:43,960 --> 01:49:47,519
Speaker 1: information into the public space, a tactic I'm sure they'll

1866
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:50,479
Speaker 1: use again. I think, you know, even if they don't

1867
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,920
Speaker 1: dump that information, they still exercise influence over those who

1868
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,320
Speaker 1: they hack, and I think we we need to address that.

1869
01:49:57,600 --> 01:50:00,040
Speaker 1: I'm so curious if that's part of the reason, and

1870
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:04,080
Speaker 1: that people who we naively thought might stand up to

1871
01:50:04,120 --> 01:50:06,599
Speaker 1: Trump aren't. I'm curious because we know that they also

1872
01:50:06,640 --> 01:50:08,800
Speaker 1: act to the r n C. But none of that

1873
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:12,240
Speaker 1: information has been released. Some real curious about what they're

1874
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:16,040
Speaker 1: sitting on. Lindsay Graham was also ACKed, and I don't

1875
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:20,880
Speaker 1: Lindsay Graham did about face and is like a lapdog

1876
01:50:21,000 --> 01:50:23,519
Speaker 1: to President Trump in a way that is shocking given

1877
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: what he was saying during the election. So very curious

1878
01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:29,000
Speaker 1: what we're going to learn about his email server. I'll

1879
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:31,600
Speaker 1: tell you what or maybe nothing, because you know, and

1880
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what the well, actually I do you

1881
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:38,040
Speaker 1: know that I speculate that you know, well, it could

1882
01:50:38,120 --> 01:50:40,240
Speaker 1: be for Lindsay Graham, that may be part of it.

1883
01:50:40,280 --> 01:50:43,800
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, I wonder if there are Republicans

1884
01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:47,200
Speaker 1: who have been act like Lindsay Graham and he himself said,

1885
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:50,479
Speaker 1: I've been acted by the Russians, uh, and there have

1886
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:53,080
Speaker 1: been others, you know. I wonder if that doesn't weigh

1887
01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:54,960
Speaker 1: on them. I mean, how could it not. I mean,

1888
01:50:55,400 --> 01:50:58,120
Speaker 1: there's there are none of us who don't have personal

1889
01:50:58,160 --> 01:51:01,120
Speaker 1: emails that we would prefer not or whatever reason, even

1890
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:04,240
Speaker 1: if there's no no wrongdoing there, they're just personal. We

1891
01:51:04,240 --> 01:51:07,080
Speaker 1: would prefer not to be in the public space, you know,

1892
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:11,439
Speaker 1: are there if Lindsey Graham was hacked, you know, there

1893
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:16,120
Speaker 1: were probably others and other Republicans, and and I don't

1894
01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:19,120
Speaker 1: think we can. We would be foolish and in denial

1895
01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:22,080
Speaker 1: to ignore the possibility of that having an impact. But

1896
01:51:22,160 --> 01:51:24,240
Speaker 1: the other part of it is simply and Lindsey Graham

1897
01:51:24,280 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 1: said this, you know, I was so disappointed to read

1898
01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:29,080
Speaker 1: this in the New York Times. He was interviewed and

1899
01:51:29,479 --> 01:51:31,760
Speaker 1: he was asked about his about face on Trump, and

1900
01:51:31,800 --> 01:51:33,960
Speaker 1: he said, well, look, if if you don't want to

1901
01:51:33,960 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 1: get re elected in in this business, you're in the

1902
01:51:36,160 --> 01:51:39,120
Speaker 1: wrong business. But but I think this is a situation

1903
01:51:39,160 --> 01:51:43,200
Speaker 1: where Lindsey Graham himself does not understand the business he's in.

1904
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 1: The business he's in, it comes with a requirement and

1905
01:51:47,240 --> 01:51:50,559
Speaker 1: an oath which he took to uphold the Constitution. That's

1906
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 1: what his job is, not to be re elected. And

1907
01:51:54,280 --> 01:51:57,280
Speaker 1: you know, yes, he needs to represent his constituents, but

1908
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:00,559
Speaker 1: he took an oath. He didn't take an oath to

1909
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:04,080
Speaker 1: represent his constituents. He needs to do that for political reasons,

1910
01:52:04,120 --> 01:52:06,679
Speaker 1: so there is an incentive there. But he took an

1911
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 1: oath to defend the Constitution and that he has failed

1912
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:13,519
Speaker 1: to do. And that and so many Republicans are right

1913
01:52:13,560 --> 01:52:16,720
Speaker 1: there along with them, and I'll just say we we

1914
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:19,799
Speaker 1: need a new generation of leaders. On the Republican side.

1915
01:52:20,200 --> 01:52:23,559
Speaker 1: I think we we will get it. We must get it.

1916
01:52:24,360 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 1: Or the Republican Party, I think in time will will

1917
01:52:28,439 --> 01:52:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, become a third party and an increasing number

1918
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:34,679
Speaker 1: of states. It's already well on its way to being

1919
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:38,960
Speaker 1: that if it already is that in California, Um, but

1920
01:52:39,280 --> 01:52:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, there needs to be some significant changes in leadership.

1921
01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:44,720
Speaker 1: I just really want to thank you for all the

1922
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:47,280
Speaker 1: things you've been willing to say today. It really is

1923
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:50,920
Speaker 1: such a breath of fresh air. Well, it's my pleasure,

1924
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:57,479
Speaker 1: and I'm excited that, hey, there's been a real clear

1925
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:00,840
Speaker 1: acknowledgment of truth and what's to inangerous and where the

1926
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:03,760
Speaker 1: silver linings come, and you know, be I'm excited that

1927
01:53:03,800 --> 01:53:05,879
Speaker 1: there are still things that make us all feel hopeful.

1928
01:53:06,640 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 1: But I do have one last question for you, which

1929
01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:12,360
Speaker 1: can be personal or about work. It's it's up to you.

1930
01:53:12,400 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 1: But the the podcast is called work in progress because

1931
01:53:16,479 --> 01:53:19,519
Speaker 1: I think we really all are forever and I'm curious

1932
01:53:19,520 --> 01:53:22,960
Speaker 1: what in your life right now feels like a work

1933
01:53:22,960 --> 01:53:26,719
Speaker 1: in progress to you. Well, there are so many ways

1934
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 1: to answer that. I mean, I definitely. I definitely believe

1935
01:53:29,520 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 1: that I, as a person am a work in progress,

1936
01:53:32,479 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, I I believe that my own belief, and

1937
01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:39,679
Speaker 1: this comes from my my faith too, is that life

1938
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:43,479
Speaker 1: is a journey in which you learn and grow and

1939
01:53:43,720 --> 01:53:47,000
Speaker 1: and try to become a better human being. And so

1940
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:50,200
Speaker 1: I that's certainly the case for me. I mean, my goodness,

1941
01:53:50,240 --> 01:53:52,479
Speaker 1: we'd be here all day if I told you all

1942
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:56,840
Speaker 1: the ways I need improvement. There are many, But I

1943
01:53:56,920 --> 01:54:00,960
Speaker 1: will say that, you know, I never or anticipated that

1944
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:03,040
Speaker 1: this is what I would be doing in life, with

1945
01:54:03,120 --> 01:54:06,320
Speaker 1: my life the work wise, that I would be in

1946
01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:09,320
Speaker 1: the middle of a fight for democracy in the United

1947
01:54:09,360 --> 01:54:12,519
Speaker 1: States of America. I thought I might be maybe I'd

1948
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:15,880
Speaker 1: do this kind of work overseas at some point, um,

1949
01:54:15,960 --> 01:54:19,559
Speaker 1: But I never imagined that this is what my life

1950
01:54:19,600 --> 01:54:22,439
Speaker 1: would be like now. And so I would I say

1951
01:54:22,439 --> 01:54:26,240
Speaker 1: that because I still feel like I'm I'm learning, and

1952
01:54:26,479 --> 01:54:29,479
Speaker 1: and maybe we all are as a country, but I

1953
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:32,920
Speaker 1: very much feel like I am learning how to fight

1954
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:36,240
Speaker 1: this fight in the best way. How to unite Americans

1955
01:54:36,880 --> 01:54:41,120
Speaker 1: around our foundational values and the institutions that protect our freedom,

1956
01:54:41,160 --> 01:54:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, how to you know, help lead us to

1957
01:54:44,600 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: another place, a better place as a country to a

1958
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,920
Speaker 1: place where once again where you know, aspiring to the

1959
01:54:51,040 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 1: more perfect realization of our values here in America as

1960
01:54:55,040 --> 01:54:58,840
Speaker 1: you refer to earlier. You know, that's a fight that

1961
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:03,640
Speaker 1: isn't always easy, and it's it's difficult when your your

1962
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:07,200
Speaker 1: your opposition in this work is the President of the

1963
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:11,560
Speaker 1: United States and has the bully pulpit, the loudest megaphone

1964
01:55:11,600 --> 01:55:16,880
Speaker 1: of all, and he is fighting for oppression in the

1965
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:21,440
Speaker 1: United States and for a dismantling of freedom in America.

1966
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:25,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's difficult to to to know how

1967
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:29,480
Speaker 1: to best do that at times. But you know that's

1968
01:55:29,480 --> 01:55:32,800
Speaker 1: a work in progress, certainly, And I, you know, I

1969
01:55:32,800 --> 01:55:35,760
Speaker 1: think every day about how you know, am I doing

1970
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:37,680
Speaker 1: it in the best way? Is there a better way

1971
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:41,000
Speaker 1: to do it? You know? How can we be more effective?

1972
01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:44,200
Speaker 1: And I don't. I know that I don't have all

1973
01:55:44,200 --> 01:55:47,760
Speaker 1: the answers, and that you know, the answers will come

1974
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:52,480
Speaker 1: from our working together as Americans on on this challenge

1975
01:55:52,520 --> 01:55:55,960
Speaker 1: and rising above it together. But but that's I spent

1976
01:55:56,040 --> 01:55:58,000
Speaker 1: a lot of time and I'm not trying to dodge

1977
01:55:58,040 --> 01:56:00,480
Speaker 1: the question by putting it on all of us. I

1978
01:56:00,480 --> 01:56:04,720
Speaker 1: spend literally every day thinking about that that, how how

1979
01:56:04,840 --> 01:56:08,800
Speaker 1: best to fight for liberty and justice in America? How

1980
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:11,840
Speaker 1: best to do whatever I can to have as big

1981
01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:15,240
Speaker 1: of an impact as I can in helping us get

1982
01:56:15,240 --> 01:56:20,320
Speaker 1: through this challenge. And um, you know, I I hope

1983
01:56:20,320 --> 01:56:22,960
Speaker 1: and pray that you know and through trial and air

1984
01:56:23,160 --> 01:56:27,640
Speaker 1: certainly that that that I can conn continue to learn

1985
01:56:27,720 --> 01:56:30,160
Speaker 1: and be better in that regard, and for the sake

1986
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:33,480
Speaker 1: of the country, I hope we all can well said

1987
01:56:33,960 --> 01:56:41,160
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Thank you. It's a pleasure. This

1988
01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:45,000
Speaker 1: show is executive produced by me, Sophia Bush and sim Sarna.

1989
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is

1990
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:53,320
Speaker 1: cait Linlee. Our editors are Josh Wendish and Matt Sasaki,

1991
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:56,120
Speaker 1: and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced

1992
01:56:56,120 --> 01:56:58,280
Speaker 1: by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by

1993
01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:00,120
Speaker 1: Grilliant Anatomy m