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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A sickening twist after nine

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Speaker 1: year old Molina, a beautiful little girl vanishes on a

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Speaker 1: family vacation. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I

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Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: A father daughter trip and see tragedy.

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Speaker 1: Nine year old little Molina on a family vacation when

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Speaker 1: dad stops for a travel break, she is abducted, and

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Speaker 1: tonight a disturbing and sickening twist in her disappearance. Joining

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Speaker 1: me an all star panel, but first straight out to

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter from WRGBCBS six Albany, Laura Jimmett is with us. Laura,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Where had the family,

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Speaker 1: the dad and the little girl been vacationing? Didn't they

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Speaker 1: stop at several beauty spots?

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Speaker 3: Well, Molina and her father did travel around to a

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Speaker 3: couple different destinations. They run a vacation together, some of

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Speaker 3: those locations being Connecticut, New York City, and right in

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Speaker 3: upstate New York in Lake George.

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Speaker 1: And you know doctor Chloe Carmichael joining us in addition

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Speaker 1: to Laura Jamt, doctor Chloe's clinical psychologist and author of

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Speaker 1: Nervous Energy. You can find her at doctor Chloe. Doctor Chloe,

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Speaker 1: this was especially important to dad because he and the

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Speaker 1: mom I believe have been estrange since twenty nineteen and

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Speaker 1: mom has primary custody, but dad sees her quite often,

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Speaker 1: and this was their big bonding where they were going

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Speaker 1: to have dad and daughter time and that's really hard

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Speaker 1: to get when you have a busy family. I will

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Speaker 1: never forget when Lucy, my daughter was growing up, father

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Speaker 1: daughter dance was a huge big deal because they would

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Speaker 1: have a single night all together and that's actually hard

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Speaker 1: to come by when both parents are working. And with

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Speaker 1: these two was split custody. I mean, the mom has primary,

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Speaker 1: but the dad tries to see her all the time.

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Speaker 1: This was a big deal for the dad, Doctor Chloe.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it certainly was. And as you said, when you have,

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Speaker 4: you know, custody situations, it can be really hard to

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Speaker 4: get that time. At the same time, you know, those

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Speaker 4: can be times when emotions do tend to run really

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Speaker 4: high and things can feel intense. There can also be

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Speaker 4: a lot of image pressure, you know, for the dad

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Speaker 4: to try to broadcast to everybody, look, you know, we're

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Speaker 4: doing these really special things together. There can be a

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Speaker 4: lot of emotional intensity and a lot at stake during

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Speaker 4: those times as well.

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Speaker 1: And there's also doctor Chloe Fomo Fomo fear of missing

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Speaker 1: out because when I take the Tines on a vacation,

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Speaker 1: I want everything to be great for them and make

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Speaker 1: all these memories right now up here. I know it

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Speaker 1: really doesn't matter what you do or where you go,

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Speaker 1: because when we were growing up, we would have Friday

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Speaker 1: and Saturday night in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. That was our vacation,

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Speaker 1: and then we would come home on Sunday. But I

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Speaker 1: remember it like I was on the riviera. For Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: We had so much fun and everything about it was fun,

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Speaker 1: and that's the memory you want your child to have,

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Speaker 1: right So there is pressure if you're a loving parent

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Speaker 1: to make that happen. And that's what we see this

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Speaker 1: dad doing.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's absolutely true, is that he seemed to want

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Speaker 4: to be creating an unforgettable lifetime experience type of trip

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Speaker 4: with his daughter. I would say that's true that there

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Speaker 4: was a lot of effort and planning that went into

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Speaker 4: orchestrating a very special trip.

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Speaker 1: Okay, guys, I want you to hear from Captain Robert McConnell.

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Speaker 5: On Saturday, July nineteenth. At twenty twenty five, at a

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Speaker 5: practically ten o'clock PM, Warren County nine one one received

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Speaker 5: the call from a man reporting his nine year old

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Speaker 5: daughter missing with a possible abduction in the area of

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Speaker 5: VEX twenty two of Ieight seven Northway in Lake George.

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Speaker 5: The show was identified as Malina Frettoleen, age nine, and

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Speaker 5: the caller as her father, Luciana Frettoland, aged forty five.

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Speaker 5: The New York City Police and Warren County Sheriff's Office

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Speaker 5: immediately responded to the area of Exit twenty two in

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Speaker 5: Northway and initiate investigation and attempt to locate Molina.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Laura Jimmett, investigative reporter WRGB CBS six

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Speaker 1: Albany now joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter Sydney Sumner, So, Sidney,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand they went all to all of

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Speaker 1: these beauty spots, a beautiful waterside town in Connecticut. They

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Speaker 1: cut through Albany. I believe they spent time in New

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Speaker 1: York City, right, I mean, that's the whole vacation in itself,

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Speaker 1: New York City. He's showing her the sites. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: Times Square everything there is to see, now, where were

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Speaker 1: they Sydney when Dad stops for a bathroom break.

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Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, they're heading north found on I eighty seven

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Speaker 6: and they're right at exit twenty two, which is Lake George.

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Speaker 6: So Dad decides he needs to go to the bathroom,

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Speaker 6: and he needs to go to the bathroom now. So

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Speaker 6: he pulled over. We use Molina in the backseat and

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Speaker 6: is like, look, I'm just going to go walk over

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Speaker 6: here in the woods for some privacy, relieve myself, and

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Speaker 6: we'll go back on our way.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's giving me a horrible, horrible flashback to

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Speaker 1: a case that we covered Sydney. You and I and

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Speaker 1: Lauren Jamett, you're going to remember this because this is

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Speaker 1: in your neck of the woods. Where a little girl

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Speaker 1: is an upstate New York, same area. She's with her family.

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Speaker 1: There are ving and camping, and they're in the little

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Speaker 1: camping circle with other RVs and the mom is watching

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Speaker 1: the daughter go around and around with other children on

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Speaker 1: a bicycle loop right there right in front of them,

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Speaker 1: and a little girl goes down the hill to the

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Speaker 1: side of the bicycle loop and in that moment, literally

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Speaker 1: in that moment, she's abducted she's abducted just like that.

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Speaker 1: It can happen just like that. And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go to special guests. Dan Murphy joining US former NYPD

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Speaker 1: detective sergeant who served on the Joint Terrorism Task Force,

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Speaker 1: former Chief Security Office, usban Court, and co host of

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Speaker 1: a hit podcast, gold Shields. He's also the author of

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Speaker 1: Workplace Safety. Dan, it can happen just like that, just

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Speaker 1: like that, And it's not because a parent isn't paying attention.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we all know, don't leave your child alone

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Speaker 1: in the car. But the dad says he was just

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Speaker 1: going to urinate on the side of the road, and

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Speaker 1: it happened just like that. But Dan, it can happen

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Speaker 1: just like that.

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Speaker 7: Yes, it's ken. Kidnappings and abductions of children can happen.

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Speaker 7: People who do it do not just randomly jump out

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Speaker 7: of a car. Sometimes that happens, but in this case,

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Speaker 7: they look at their victims, they look and see where

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Speaker 7: the opportunity is, and they act very very quickly and decisively.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was just talking about the case of

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Speaker 1: little Charlotte Cina. Charlotte was found alive, if you will recall,

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Speaker 1: and Laura, I'm sure you remember that Charlotte was found alive.

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Speaker 1: She was several miles away, and she was in the

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Speaker 1: purpse camper part behind his mother's home where he lived,

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Speaker 1: behind mommy's house, and she was crammed into a as

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Speaker 1: I recall, Jackie, correct me if I'm wrong, she was

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Speaker 1: crammed into a cabinet under a counter, in a camper

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Speaker 1: like an RV. And we've taken a lot of RV

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Speaker 1: trips the twins Dan, and it's how he got that

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Speaker 1: child crammed into that cabinet. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: good news is. Charlotte lived and she was taken Dan,

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Speaker 1: just like what we're talking about. She lived, so regardless

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Speaker 1: of what may have happened in the interim, that's the

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Speaker 1: victory because she lived. Let me understand, Laura Jamette joining

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Speaker 1: us of your RGB, this was just a pit stop,

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Speaker 1: a five minute pit stop for a dad to maybe

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Speaker 1: a little bit longer to get out of the car,

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Speaker 1: go back behind the trees. You're an eate, come back

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Speaker 1: to the car and get in the car. It was

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Speaker 1: very quick, right, Laura.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct, it was. It all happened extremely fast.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand this area where he stopped for

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Speaker 1: the bathroom break. Was it in a rural area, I

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Speaker 1: mean Sidney Sumner. I know a little bit about Late George.

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Speaker 1: I know it's beautiful, but what can you tell me

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Speaker 1: Sidney about the area. Because terrain in this type of

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Speaker 1: case is very very important. You know, what if what

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Speaker 1: if and this doesn't happen that often a child gets

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Speaker 1: out of the car and starts walking. What if fill

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Speaker 1: in the blank, tell me about the terrain. Where is

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Speaker 1: Lake George? Where did they stop, Sydney for exactly did

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Speaker 1: they stop? Was it near a gas station? Was it

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Speaker 1: near a toll booth? What tell me?

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Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, it's a little unclear exactly where they stopped,

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Speaker 6: if Dad actually pulled off the highway or if he

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Speaker 6: was just parked on the side of the road and

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Speaker 6: walked out into the forest. And this is a heavily

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Speaker 6: wooded area. They call this an old growth forest, so

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Speaker 6: lots of wooded area.

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Speaker 1: The lake is huge.

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Speaker 6: It goes a very very long way north and south

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Speaker 6: in both directions. This is a very popular vacation spot,

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Speaker 6: so there's lots of people who aren't necessarily local to

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Speaker 6: the area, especially this time beer And there's lots of

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Speaker 6: highways in this area. You get off into Route nine.

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Speaker 6: This is the North Way. This is a very large highway,

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Speaker 6: heavily traveled, big vacation spot. So, like you say, it's

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Speaker 6: easy to get anywhere in an hour from this spot

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Speaker 6: in particular.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know what's disturbing about that with me a

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Speaker 1: longtime colleague, Jason Oceans. He's a veteran defense attorney who

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Speaker 1: works throughout this jurisdiction, all through New York, New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: the whole Tri state area and beyond. Jason Oceans, you

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Speaker 1: and I worked on the Dylan and Shasta Grone case

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Speaker 1: and that was in Cordalaine, Idaho. Now why am I

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Speaker 1: bringing that up? You just heard both Laura Jimmett and

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Speaker 1: Cidy Summer talk about this isolated area. Okay, Dad is

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Speaker 1: taking his daughter all across the New York Connecticut area,

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Speaker 1: which with which you're very familiar to the site in

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Speaker 1: the sounds of New York City, to the waterside in Connecticut,

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Speaker 1: and now in the adroind Dyck region of Lake George, Cordalaane, Idaho.

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Speaker 1: Sidney just said, there are a lot of interstates and

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Speaker 1: roads leading to this particular beauty spot, and it is

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Speaker 1: beautiful that much I know Cordalaine, Idaho. A guy the

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Speaker 1: perp was driving along looks off the interstate, and if

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Speaker 1: you look at the aerial view, as you and I

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Speaker 1: did together on a very dark studio one day, I

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Speaker 1: recall it distinctly. You look down and there's nothing but trees,

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Speaker 1: green trees. You can't see a single house. Nothing. The

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Speaker 1: purp drives by on the interstate, looks over and sees Shasta.

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Speaker 1: Gronie thinks she's about eleven or twelve at the time,

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Speaker 1: on getting into an above ground pool, and this guy,

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Speaker 1: unknown to the family pulls over, lies in wait, waits

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Speaker 1: for the family to go to bed, wipes out the

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Speaker 1: family and abducts the little girl and boy Dylan and shastagrown.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that all these roads converge in this area,

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Speaker 1: this beauty spot, this tourist spot, plus it's heavily heavily forested,

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Speaker 1: is like the Cordline case all over again. It's ideal Nancy,

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Speaker 1: as you describe it.

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Speaker 8: It's that perfect set of circumstances in this case, as

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Speaker 8: we're talking about a potential abduction in upstate New York.

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Speaker 7: About an hour north of Albany on the North Way.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's as described it's forested, but so many little

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Speaker 8: access roads in and so many tourists, so many different

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Speaker 8: people from the community, that it is a recipe sometimes

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Speaker 8: for disaster and an abduction.

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Speaker 1: And I've learned that Late George, I believe you visited there,

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Speaker 1: Jason Oceans, Late George is forty four square miles. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I know you've handled cases and defended cases

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Speaker 1: where there was water search. That's never good when you

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Speaker 1: hear the words water search, never Nancy forty four square miles,

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Speaker 1: Dan Murphy, a water search exhaustive. If a water search

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Speaker 1: has to be conducted on forty four square miles, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking side scan and sonar, dive teams, water dogs, dogs

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Speaker 1: that can pick up a human scent and water. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's real. That is an intense, intense search, Dan Murphy,

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Speaker 1: and tense.

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Speaker 7: That's a tremendous amount of manpower that would take a

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Speaker 7: lot of hours a huge area to search. I don't

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Speaker 7: know how deep Lake Georgia's I've been there, but it

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Speaker 7: would require an unbelievable amount of time, energy, and effort

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Speaker 7: to search an area if you did not have exact

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Speaker 7: information or at least a tip as to where in

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Speaker 7: the lake. It could take weeks to drag a lake

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Speaker 7: like that.

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Speaker 2: New York State beliefs have issued an Amber alert and

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Speaker 2: are desperately searching for a little girl who diss peered

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Speaker 2: from her father's car while traveling on Interstate eighty seven.

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Speaker 2: Molina Frattolan's father found her missing from the back seat

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Speaker 2: of their car after making a brief rest stop near

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Speaker 2: Exit twenty two. Nine year old Molina is five feet

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Speaker 2: tall one hundred pounds, has brown hair and brown eyes.

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Speaker 2: She was wearing light colored shorts, a black and white

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Speaker 2: striped T shirt, and black Adida sneakers. Anyone who may

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Speaker 2: have seen Molina should call nine one one immediately.

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Speaker 9: Luciano Frattolan calls nine one one nine fifty eight pm

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Speaker 9: July nineteenth, frantically reporting he thinks his nine year old daughter, Molina,

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Speaker 9: has been kidnapped. Frattolan says he pulled over in near

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Speaker 9: Exit twenty two and walked into the woods to relieve himself.

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Speaker 9: When he returned, a white van was speeding away from

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Speaker 9: the shoulder and he found Molina missing from the back seat.

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Speaker 9: Rattolin doesn't remember seeing a license plate, but believes he

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Speaker 9: saw two men sitting in the front seat of the van.

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Speaker 9: New York State Police put out a BOLO in the

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Speaker 9: Lake George area and southbound on the Northway, but by morning,

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Speaker 9: Molina is still missing. An investigator's issue in ambrell, an.

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Speaker 1: Amber alert is issued, but they waited overnight to issue

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Speaker 1: the amber alert. Jason osens, how many times have we

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Speaker 1: seen a delay in issuing an amber alert? I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking right off the top of my head to Cherish Periwinkle,

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Speaker 1: who was with her mother in a Target superstore and

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Speaker 1: they met a guy in there when they were shopping

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Speaker 1: with the little children, and he offered to go get

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Speaker 1: them hamburgers from the McDonald's inside the superstore upfront, and

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Speaker 1: they just kept walking and instead of issuing the amber

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Speaker 1: alert immediately as the mother rain begged, they kept suggesting

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Speaker 1: that this was somehow a custody problem, and they didn't

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Speaker 1: issue it. As soon as they did issue it, like

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Speaker 1: I don't know, twelve fifteen hours later, they got a

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Speaker 1: call that a white van had been seen. They went

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Speaker 1: to the white van and they found Cherish dead, submerged

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Speaker 1: in water under a log. Because of a delay in

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Speaker 1: issuing an amber alert, what is the problem with issuing

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Speaker 1: amber alerts on time?

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Speaker 8: Nancy, that's a you know, that's a horrible spot that

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Speaker 8: law enforcement is in. Sometimes there are other circumstances, initially

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Speaker 8: in the investigation, as you mentioned, in this horrible circumstance,

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Speaker 8: and in other times they have reason to delay, there

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Speaker 8: are mistakes made, but the prudency sometimes leads to other things,

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Speaker 8: and oftentimes other times leads to deadly consequences.

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Speaker 1: It's a very tough spot for detectives.

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Speaker 8: In that moment because you and I both know that

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Speaker 8: twenty four to forty eight hours right after a loss

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Speaker 8: are in tegral.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why they don't just issue it better

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Speaker 1: safe than sorry, issue the Amber alert, and then if

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Speaker 1: it's un needed, then say hey, whereas that we've got

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Speaker 1: updated information, why sit on it? Although in their defense

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Speaker 1: to Laura Jeanette joining US investigative reporter WRGB CBS six

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Speaker 1: at Albany, Laura, the dad didn't get a tag number,

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Speaker 1: did he?

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Speaker 6: Don't?

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Speaker 3: I don't believe so.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think he did. Sidney Sumner, he couldn't

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Speaker 1: get a tag number, could he?

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Speaker 6: No, there was no tag number. And Captain McConnell actually

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Speaker 6: commented on this during a press conference about the case

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Speaker 6: and said that they want to be careful not to

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Speaker 6: numb the public by putting out Amber alerts before being

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Speaker 6: sure of what's going on. So he did make that

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Speaker 6: comment in their defense about waiting for a little bit

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Speaker 6: more information, but ultimately they had nothing else to add

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Speaker 6: other than that white man.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, I think that's bass Ackwards. But that said,

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Speaker 1: the dad gave a quasi description of the perps even

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Speaker 1: though he didn't have a tag number. You know, can

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Speaker 1: more concerned about numbing the public. To Amberlerts, I disagree

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Speaker 1: with that, but maybe there's more to the story than

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Speaker 1: we know. Let's hear from Captain Robert McConnell.

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Speaker 5: On July eleventh, twenty twenty five. Mister Frattolean and Malina

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Speaker 5: and Molina expected to return on Sunday, July twentieth, at

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Speaker 5: which time Lena Bee would be returned to the costody

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Speaker 5: of her mother. At about five thirty pm on July twentieth,

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Speaker 5: Molina is observer with her father on video surveillance in

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Speaker 5: Saratoga Springs, New York. At about six thirty pm, she

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Speaker 5: spoke to her mother on the phone and told her

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Speaker 5: she and her father were a route back. Did child

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Speaker 5: appears to be in good health and to not indicate

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Speaker 5: she's under any dress.

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Speaker 1: Larja met joining us WRGB. The surveillance video at Saratoga

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Speaker 1: Springs that is from an unnamed business, Is that right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct. The name of the business hasn't been

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Speaker 3: released at this time.

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Speaker 1: Now, that's about five thirty in the afternoon, five thirty

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Speaker 1: in the afternoon. At six point thirty, she speaks to

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Speaker 1: her mom on the phone and she says she and

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Speaker 1: her dad are back en route home and she was

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Speaker 1: in high spirits. Is that right, Laura Jaman, that's right.

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Speaker 3: State police did say that while she was on the

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Speaker 3: phone with her mother, there was no signs of distress

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Speaker 3: and that they were just simply on their way home

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Speaker 3: from finishing up their vacation.

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Speaker 1: Laura Ja met WRGB. How long had the two been

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Speaker 1: traveling on their road trip.

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Speaker 3: So they were traveling on this road trip from July

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Speaker 3: eleventh to the nineteenth, so eight days in total.

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Speaker 1: Eight days in total, very difficult for daddy. Finally gets

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Speaker 1: time with the daughter and then after he stops for

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Speaker 1: a pit stop, she disappears. Listen to Captain Robert McConnell.

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Speaker 5: So the suspect's initial account is that he had pulled

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Speaker 5: over in the area of bax Of twenty two in

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Speaker 5: Lake George, pulled over to a parking lot to yearinate

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Speaker 5: is inditial reports. He steps away to a wood wooden area,

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Speaker 5: returns to the vehicle and at that point his child

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Speaker 5: has gone from the vehicle. He reports a suspicious white

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Speaker 5: van fleeing the scene southbound.

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Speaker 1: The dreaded white van. How many times is it me,

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Speaker 1: Dan Murphy, former NYPD or is it always a white van?

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Speaker 1: I mean the story I just told you about Cherish

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Speaker 1: Peririweagle that was a white van. Why is it always

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Speaker 1: a white van?

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Speaker 7: Yes, it does seem to be a white van a lot.

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Speaker 7: That was one of my first thoughts when I saw

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Speaker 7: the report as well, You've got to be kidding me.

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Speaker 7: How many white vans are there out there abducting children? Yeah,

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Speaker 7: that to me struck me as a little, a little

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Speaker 7: repetitive from many cases in the past.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories. With Nancy Grace, it was just a vacation,

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Speaker 1: a planned vacation. The whole family had been looking forward

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Speaker 1: to it. Listen, it was just a vacation.

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Speaker 5: It was a planned vacation. They visited a couple locations

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Speaker 5: in Connecticut, as well as New York. They're most recently

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Speaker 5: in New York City. She had no concerns for dur City.

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Speaker 5: While she's with him, she knew that he was taking

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Speaker 5: here on the strip. The Warren County Sheriff's Office sent

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Speaker 5: every resource available to investigate this, right, it's inception same

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Speaker 5: with New York State Police. We had us in conjunction

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Speaker 5: with the law enforcement partners. We had aviation, drones, canine investigators,

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Speaker 5: uniform troopers. Every resource we had to bear we applied

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Speaker 5: in this investigation.

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Speaker 1: When a nine year old little girl goes missing off

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Speaker 1: a family vacation, an amber alert is issued. An all

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Speaker 1: out searched by land by water ensues, but then a

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Speaker 1: disturbing detail emerges listen jering a subsequent interview.

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Speaker 5: He then reports two unknown males forster into a white van.

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Speaker 9: New York State Police suspects something isn't right when Luciano

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Speaker 9: Frattolin first says he saw a white van speeding away

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Speaker 9: from the shoulder, then claims he actually saw two men

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Speaker 9: dragging Molina into a white van.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand what's happening to Sidney Sumner Crime

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Speaker 1: Story's investigative reporter. At first, Dad says, he leaves the

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Speaker 1: vehicle just for a pit stop to your innate on

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Speaker 1: the side of the road and gets back to the

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Speaker 1: car and sees a white van speeding off. Now I'm hearing,

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Speaker 1: he says, he spots two unknown males forcing his daughter

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Speaker 1: into a flite van. That is a subtle but very

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Speaker 1: critical different Sydney.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, it plays a huge part in police starting an investigation,

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Speaker 6: knowing where to look what's going on. So at first

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Speaker 6: he says, you know, maybe this van had something to

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Speaker 6: do with my daughter disappearing from the car. So he

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Speaker 6: thinks maybe my daughter has been kidnapped, and then he

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Speaker 6: changes his story to no, I watched her get kidnapped.

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Speaker 6: I was walking back to the car. I see people

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Speaker 6: dragging her from my car to this white band. I'm

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Speaker 6: running back up trying to stop them, but they speed

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Speaker 6: off before I can get there, so changes the story hugely.

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Speaker 1: Jason Otions is a veteran trial lawyer in this jurisdiction

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Speaker 1: where little Molina goes missing. Jason, you and I have

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Speaker 1: talked a lot about inconsistent statements, and I never have

391
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Speaker 1: a problem with a witness or a victim adding to

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Speaker 1: their statement. In fact, when they add to their statement.

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Speaker 1: I blame the questioner because I believe the questioner didn't

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Speaker 1: ask the right question to start with. You have to

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Speaker 1: change the question up. You have to come at it

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Speaker 1: from different angles to get every single fact. Adding to

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Speaker 1: a statement, I don't have a problem embellishing your statement. Good,

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Speaker 1: give me more facts. But when you change the statement,

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Speaker 1: I guess you're going to tell me that he really

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Speaker 1: didn't change his statement, because I think he did.

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Speaker 8: No Nanty. I think in the critical analysis of what

402
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Speaker 8: we're talking about, it's essential for the investigator to possibly

403
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Speaker 8: ask eight questions to get that one handswer and bring

404
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Speaker 8: it out. I can cross and ask the same question

405
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Speaker 8: almost you multiple times, trying to elicit what I'm looking for.

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Speaker 8: Perhaps so an investigator operates the same way as you

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Speaker 8: and I do from a prosecutor side or a criminal

408
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Speaker 8: defense side. But your analysis of that is exactly right,

409
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Speaker 8: and that's seemingly the details that lead the police to

410
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Speaker 8: question the father.

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Speaker 1: Adding on to a statement, no problem changing a statement.

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Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Chloe Carmichael, to this day. To this day,

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Speaker 1: doctor Chloe, I recall the last moment I saw my

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Speaker 1: fiance Keith before he was murdered. He was leaving my

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Speaker 1: parents home, and he was driving away in a white vehic,

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Speaker 1: his white vehicle, and he lifted up his left arm

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Speaker 1: out of the car and waved over the car, and

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Speaker 1: I waved back. That's the last time I saw him.

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Speaker 1: I remember it at this moment exactly what happened. And

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Speaker 1: I have a really hard time with the fact that

421
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Speaker 1: the dad changed his story about the last moment he

422
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Speaker 1: saw his daughter. First, just when he gets out of

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Speaker 1: the car to go urinate, pisted up in the woods.

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Speaker 1: Now he actually sees her getting dragged into a white van.

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Speaker 1: Because that gives me a lot of questions. Dragged by

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Speaker 1: who did you say? Two men? Was she screaming? Did

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Speaker 1: they seem to know her? Did she know them? Were

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Speaker 1: they white? Were they Asian? Were they black? Did they

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Speaker 1: have facial hair? How tall were they? I mean a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions. Right, that's a big change, Doctor Chloe.

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Speaker 1: You can't remember the last moment you saw your daughter,

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Speaker 1: your nine year old little girl.

433
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 4: No, of course, Nancy are absolutely right to omit such

434
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 4: an important fact. It just it boggles logic. So if

435
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 4: you're a father, your daughter is being dragged away by

436
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 4: two men, and yet you don't see fit two men

437
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 4: that when you initially speak to police. It's just it's

438
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 4: one of the most obvious points of information that a

439
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 4: father or any parent, or even just a casual bystander

440
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 4: would make sure to relay to the police. So yeah,

441
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 4: I would be very suspicious of that as well.

442
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: And you know, doctor Chloe, very often we hear arguments that, well,

443
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: he was under a lot of stress. Okay, fine, we're

444
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: all under stress. But in that moment, you can't remember

445
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: the last time you see your daughter. I mean Dan

446
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: Murphy joining me, former NYPD star of Goldshields podcast. I

447
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: would be all over him like white on Rice when

448
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: he changed the last moment he sees his daughter. How

449
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: can you screw that up?

450
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 7: You can't. You can't unless you're making something up or

451
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 7: unless you're thinking on the fly. Now, an individual like this,

452
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 7: you say he's under pressure and stress. That's believable. But

453
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 7: believe me, every legitimate victim I've seen who's had a

454
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 7: family member either abducted or seriously injured member is a

455
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 7: great deal of things about that moment, especially when immediately

456
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 7: confronted by law enforcement. In this case, you want to

457
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 7: tell them everything you know. He kept it very generic

458
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 7: at first, and it's as though he's thinking of the

459
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 7: story in his mind. I have to make something more up,

460
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 7: I have to add more to it.

461
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: Then A very disturbing update, A heartbreaking update from Captain McConnell.

462
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 5: On Sunday, July twentieth, a search detail compris of officers

463
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 5: from multiple agencies conducted an organized search in the town

464
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 5: of taikonder Rogan, New York, in an area, an area

465
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 5: mister Frettonne was suspected of having visited. During that search detail,

466
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 5: at approximately ten to fifty members of the New York

467
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 5: State Police Forest Rangers located Molina, deceased in the shallow

468
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 5: portion of a pond.

469
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: Investigators are tight liped as to why, but the search

470
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 2: for Molina leads detectives to tykond Roga, about forty miles

471
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: north of where the little girl's father says she was

472
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: last seen and one of their stomps on their road trip.

473
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: Authorities aren't searching long before they announced a discovery at

474
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: one fifty pm. It's Molina, her body found hidden under

475
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: a log in the shallows of a pond. It's still

476
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: uncertain how Molina died, but it's clear she hadn't been

477
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: there very long, and someone tried to conceal her body

478
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: straight out.

479
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: To investigative reporter WRGBCBS six Albany, Laura Jimmette, Laura again,

480
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Explained to me how

481
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: her body was seemingly hidden.

482
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: So when they went out to tech Honderoga and state

483
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: police also talked a little bit about how they knew

484
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: to go out there. This was through inconsistencies with the

485
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: father's story and just through different technology. So when they

486
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: were searching the wood, they came across a small pond,

487
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 3: a small body of water, and they stated how her

488
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 3: body was pressed under the log. So she was trying

489
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: to be con field, but it was clear that she

490
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: was under there.

491
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: When you mentioned large met technology, obviously the phones were pinged.

492
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: Obviously phones were pined to put her in a certain area.

493
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: All of that is being investigated as we speak tonight,

494
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: but we do know her body was hidden. This little

495
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: nine year old girl, just scrubbed in sunshine, was forced

496
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: under a log much less like Cherish Periwinkle was. Now,

497
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: this is what I'm getting at to Dan Murphy, former

498
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: NYPD and star of gold Shields podcast, That is concealing

499
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: the body and when there is a random attack, a

500
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: random murder, let's just say a carjacking or a robbery,

501
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: a burglary, and the victim is home and so the

502
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: park kills them. Typically well overwhelmingly statistically, the purp doesn't

503
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: take time to stage the scene. They're out of there.

504
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: So I would say, almost universally, this means it was

505
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: someone that knows her that took the time to hide

506
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: her body. Right, Can you say it better than I did?

507
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: The staging of the scene that's trying to conceal the

508
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: body tells me it's not random.

509
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 7: I agree with you, it's not random. And this kind

510
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 7: of situation, hiding the body like that is almost like

511
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 7: putting a blanket over someone when they get killed in

512
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 7: a home. It's an act of care. You don't want

513
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 7: to see the body. You either don't want to see

514
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 7: it yourself, or you don't want to see it harmed anymore.

515
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 7: In this case, out in the woods, maybe hiding it

516
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 7: under there's twofold one. It takes longer to find it,

517
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 7: so maybe it gives him more time to run. But secondly,

518
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 7: it gives whoever did this the opportunity to say, well,

519
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 7: I didn't let animals get at it or something like that.

520
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 7: A weird psychology to it. But yes, you would generally

521
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 7: see people who are the random killers that they just

522
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 7: dump it and run. But in cases like these is.

523
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: Typically so you know what we're seeing that right now, Dan.

524
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: In the case of Suzanne Morphew, a mom out of

525
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: Colorado who goes missing on a bike ride on Mother's Day,

526
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: Suzanne was not murdered where her body was found, and

527
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: investigative forensics experts can tell that because of the condition

528
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: in which the body was found, she was not murdered there.

529
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: She was dumped their post mortem, which is staging. So

530
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: obviously someone wanted to hide her body. Why because her

531
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: body would point to them. I think that's what happened

532
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: in this case. Someone tried to hide the nine year

533
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: old little girl, Molina's body under a log submerged in water.

534
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: Why joining me now a special guest doctor Kendall Crown's

535
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: chief medical Examiner, Terrance County. That's Fort Worth, as I

536
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,239
Speaker 1: like to say, never a lack of business in the

537
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: morgue at Fort Worth. He is the star of a

538
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: brand new podcast and Mayhem in the Morgue, and he

539
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine

540
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: at TCU. Okay, Doctor Kendall Crowns, I need to know

541
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: what forensic evidence I can get off this little girl's body.

542
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: She's been submerged in water. We believe, according to law

543
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: enforcement in that jurisdiction, that she was killed between seven

544
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: forty pm and nine twelve pm. And heartbreakingly, this is

545
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: about an hour after the mother spoke to her and

546
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: everything was fine. An hour and ten minutes later, she's dead.

547
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: So help me out what can we glean from her

548
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: body and how, Doctor Kendall Crowns, Okay.

549
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 10: So pretty much, it sounds like she's probably beaten and strangled.

550
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 10: So what you'll see on the body is bruising about

551
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 10: the head and neck, possibly on the chest. Internally, there'll

552
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 10: be hemorrhages in the neck musculature. There might be little

553
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 10: pinpoint hemorrhages which are called particular hemorrhages in the eyes,

554
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 10: which are seen with strangulations as well. Due to her age,

555
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 10: there probably won't be any fracturing of the bones around

556
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 10: her neck, the highway bone, the thyroid cartilage, those won't

557
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 10: be fractured because she's too young. But what you'll see

558
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 10: internally is a lot of neck muscle hemorrhage from a strangulation. Now,

559
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 10: if she's been beaten about the head, you'll see bruises

560
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 10: of the head. You possibly will see skull fractures, and

561
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 10: you might see hemorrhages on the brain called subarachnoid hemorrhages

562
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 10: or subdural hemorrhages as well. So you might have a

563
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 10: combination of beating with a strangulation. But that's what she'll

564
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 10: be really looking.

565
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: For crime stores with Nancy Grace, Doctor gentle Crowns, How

566
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: can I find evidence on her that can point me

567
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: to the perp? How likely is it that DNA on

568
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: her body would survive being pushed under a log and

569
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: submerged in water.

570
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 10: So with the DNA that she would have with blunt

571
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,479
Speaker 10: force injuries or strangulation, it'd be more of the touch

572
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 10: DNA on the surface of the skin, and that can

573
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 10: be obscured by being submerged in water, especially if she's

574
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 10: in there for a prolonged period of time. So it

575
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 10: may be difficult to necessarily get DNA from the body

576
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 10: that can implicate an individual. But the problem is is

577
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 10: she's with her father on this trip, so any she's

578
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 10: going to be covered in his DNA potentially, so if

579
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 10: they are able to get DNA, it will obviously be his,

580
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 10: and they would be looking for someone else's to corroborate

581
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 10: his story.

582
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: Right, the fact that she may have her dad's DNA

583
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: on her body would not necessarily prove anything. I mean,

584
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: if he had hugged her that morning, or picked her

585
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: up and put her on a ride or anything like

586
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: that could have left DNA. I still don't know if

587
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: she was clothed or unclothed, which would make a big

588
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: difference in the type of DNA if any is found

589
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: on the body. Would you agree with that, Doctor Kenvil.

590
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 10: Crowns, I would agree with that. And the very fact

591
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 10: that she's in a car with him, she's going to

592
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 10: be coated with his DNA if she is knew, that

593
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 10: could mean that she was possibly sexually assaulted, and in

594
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 10: that situation there would be able to recover DNA from

595
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 10: her vaginal orifices or anal orifice, or even her oral

596
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 10: orifices as well, even though she's in water.

597
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 9: Alise alleged Foratlan fabricated the entire kidnapping story after killing

598
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 9: Molina and dumping her body in a remote area.

599
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: Hours earlier he reported this.

600
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 5: He all he fabricated the initial report of the abduction,

601
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 5: and he was in in the custody of police from

602
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 5: that point on. Sometime after Molina's phone call with her

603
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 5: mother and before Monsieur Frattolin's nih one call, he allegedly

604
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 5: murdered Molina and left her body in a remote area

605
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 5: where she's later discovered by law enforcement. Initial reports from

606
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 5: mister Frattolan of a suspicious white band in the area

607
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 5: of the alleged disappearance, which proven to be untrue. The

608
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 5: suspect has been charged with the murder in the second

609
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 5: degree and concealment of human corpse.

610
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: So it was all a hoax to cover up a murder.

611
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: It's really hard for me to deal with the timing

612
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: because at six thirty pm, Molina was alive and well,

613
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: if you said, talking to her mom on the phone,

614
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: had had a great time with dad, was on the

615
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: way home. What could possibly have been the motive to

616
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: do this? To Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories, what's it

617
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: potential momive?

618
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, the parents have been divorced or separated since

619
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 6: twenty nineteen, and I'm sure that comes with some kind

620
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 6: of financial arrangement to take care of their little girl.

621
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 6: Dad appears very very successful on social media. He owns

622
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 6: a coffee company. He posted something about a Netflix project. So,

623
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 6: by all accounts, Dad looks to be a very successful businessman,

624
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 6: and mom may have expected him to continue contributing to

625
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 6: Molina's up raving.

626
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: Straight out to Laura Jimett WRGBCBS six, is it true

627
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: that the dad. Let's see that shot of him from

628
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: Facebook again. He's clad in all black and kind of

629
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: a ninja outfit. Is it true, Laura Jamet that he

630
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: was two hundred thousand dollars in debt? How did he

631
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: get that deeply in debt? And how much of that

632
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: was child support? Or do we even know that yet?

633
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, they are saying right now that he was struggling

634
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 3: to pay child support and that he was in debt

635
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 3: with something to do with his coffee business.

636
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: What coffee business? Could you explain his coffee business? Gambella?

637
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 3: So he was he is, He was a founder of

638
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 3: Gambella Coffee and he was an entrepreneur and a lot

639
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 3: of there's a lot of talk about him being in debt,

640
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: either because of the business or just certain things surrounding

641
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 3: that but it's not confirmed yet.

642
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: At this time, the Gambella coffee business was very intricately

643
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: described online. Sidney Sumner doesn't describe him the father growing

644
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: up quote running between the fragrant, fragrant and beautifully colored

645
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: coffee beans as a boy. He named it after a hometown. Correct.

646
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, So what we know about for Toland is

647
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 6: that he did a significant amount of time in Ethiopia,

648
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 6: so this copy company is very near and dear to

649
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 6: his heart. This is something from his hometown that he

650
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 6: founded and started. So even if it was a financial drain,

651
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 6: I could see that he would put money hoping that

652
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 6: this sinking ship would stay above water.

653
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 1: This is after a recent posting by dad showing his

654
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: daughter where he was taking her sledding. Let's see that,

655
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: because it's seemingly incongruent, Doctor Chloe Carmichael, that he's posting

656
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: all these loving videos and then just before he goes

657
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: to take her back to mom, faced with two hundred

658
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: thousand dollars of debt, he murders her and hides her

659
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: body under a log. Yes, Nancy.

660
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 4: The whole thing I think is it raises eyebrows, to

661
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 4: say the least, you know when he's posting all of

662
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 4: those videos. As a clinical psychologist, what comes to me

663
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 4: and for me is what we call impression management. Obviously

664
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 4: going to a lot of effort to literally broadcast to people, hey,

665
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 4: I'm a great dad.

666
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: You know, I have fun with my daughter.

667
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 4: As was also discussed about the white van and then

668
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 4: the fact that his beautiful little girl was then found underwater,

669
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 4: I as a psychologist, would actually start to ask myself,

670
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 4: you know, these are some major coincidences. I would like

671
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 4: to be able to see his search history on his phone.

672
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 4: Was he googling and learning about past situations where little girls,

673
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 4: you know, were kidnapped and disappeared? You know, supposedly he

674
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 4: was this He liked to broadcast an image of himself

675
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 4: as this, you know, successful, kind of neat freak type

676
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 4: of person, even though from what I understand, his social

677
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 4: media posts also acknowledge that he found his daughter to

678
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: be kind of chaotic and messy. But of course he

679
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: praised himself in that regard to saying, you know, but

680
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: I've you know, learned to accept this a lot of times,

681
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 4: that that perfectionism and that neat freak side is actually

682
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 4: about a desire to control and when somebody just can't

683
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: tolerate that, and then you know she's messing with his

684
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 4: bank account. In his mind, of course, it's just it's

685
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 4: a natural duty of him as a parent to provide.

686
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 4: But there's obviously something going on there, and I'm disgusted

687
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 4: at all of this, but I'm glad at the very

688
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 4: least that we're shining a light and looking at what

689
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 4: happened to this beautiful little girl.

690
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: You know, Dan Murphy joining me former NYPD in Store

691
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: of gold Shields podcast. Dan, you pointed out a very

692
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: significant fact earlier. There's no way that this dad is

693
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: going to be able to claim any sort of mental

694
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: defect such as temporary insanity, a delusion, because you got

695
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: him dead in the water. Explain.

696
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, a guy like this, in a case like this,

697
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 7: he has gone through all this work to cover up

698
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 7: what he's done, to deflect, to move law enforcement in

699
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 7: different directions. You cannot claim a temporary insanity defense. I'm

700
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 7: not an attorney, but how do you do that when

701
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 7: you have all this concentrated effort focused on getting the

702
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 7: attention away from you. Now, if he had done something

703
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 7: and snapped back into reality and called right away, showing

704
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 7: he really just lost it and cared for his daughter.

705
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 7: There'd be a glimmer of hope for some sort of

706
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 7: a claim like that, But in this case, he has

707
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 7: done everything he can do to push it off to

708
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 7: somebody else and to keep the attention away from himself.

709
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 7: That to me strikes of premeditation.

710
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: In the act, Dan Murphy, you were describing earlier how

711
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: he intentionally circled back to the dump side the pond

712
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: in a wooded area under a log to coordinate it

713
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: with where the white van may have taken her. Explain

714
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: your theory.

715
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 7: If he is going to say that a white van

716
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 7: with two people took my daughter and headed off down

717
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 7: the highway, he's going to have to make sure that

718
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 7: she is found someplace not near where he is. That

719
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 7: it's plausible that they took her off, did something with her,

720
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 7: and then dropped her and dumped her, as opposed to

721
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 7: having it be anywhere near him. So this takes the

722
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 7: thought of him driving looking for a place to do

723
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 7: this and thinking to his head, where would it make

724
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 7: sense that someone who kidnapped my daughter would take her,

725
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 7: that would have privacy, that nobody would see them, that

726
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 7: they could get away with it and continue on their way.

727
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 7: This is all acts of somebody who is thinking on

728
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 7: the run, on the fly, but trying to come up

729
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 7: with a plausible explanation for what happened.

730
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: We stop to remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Frank

731
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: Bordinaro Genesee County Sheriffs forty four, killed in the line

732
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: of duty after nineteen years of service, leaving behind grieving

733
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: wife now widow. Robin had two sons, Bryce and Chase,

734
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: American hero, but his Sheriff Frank Bordinor Nancy Grace signing

735
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: off good bye friend,