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Speaker 1: Just a heads up. This conversation includes mentions of sex

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Speaker 1: crime and suicide. There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: As a production of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bridget Todd, and this is there Are No Girls

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Speaker 1: on the Internet. So I wanted to do this episode

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Speaker 1: because I had this great conversation with Attorney carry Goldberg,

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Speaker 1: who specializes in revenge porn and abuse against women and

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Speaker 1: sexualized violence that plays out online, and we briefly mentioned

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Speaker 1: the situation with Aaron Coleman, who is a nineteen year

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Speaker 1: old part time dishwasher who recently won the Kansas State

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Speaker 1: House of Representatives Democratic primary, and he won despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that he had an admitted history of revenge porn

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Speaker 1: against his classmates. And I released all the way this

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Speaker 1: story played out very much a line with the way

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Speaker 1: that Carrie Goldberg said these stories tend to play out,

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Speaker 1: and so I wanted to do a quick supplementary episode

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Speaker 1: to break down the situation. Coleman dropped out of the

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Speaker 1: race after all of these allegations really reached a fever

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Speaker 1: pitch online, only to re enter the race yesterday. Yesterday

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Speaker 1: on the day that I'm recording this, which is Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: So I saw this story really related to the conversation

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Speaker 1: that we had with Carrie Goldberg this week, because she

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Speaker 1: really laid out how as a society were so quick

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Speaker 1: to minimize this kind of behavior. And by this kind

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Speaker 1: of behavior, I mean things like revenge porn, I mean

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Speaker 1: things like abuse of women and girls, sexualized violence. We

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Speaker 1: are so quick to say boys will be boys. This

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Speaker 1: happened when he was so young. Why are you trying

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Speaker 1: to bring up old stuff and ruin this kid's life.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't he deserve to move on? All of these things

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Speaker 1: are really ways that we minimize this very serious crime

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Speaker 1: of revenge porn. I mentioned in the episode Glenn Greenwald,

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Speaker 1: who was a journalist at the Intercept, he himself tweeted

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Speaker 1: and called this behavior quote bad middle school bullying. And

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Speaker 1: this is not just bullying, it's a very serious sex crime.

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Speaker 1: Most people, even people who are bullies, don't do this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. It's not a normal thing. And so

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Speaker 1: I really saw the way that this story played out

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Speaker 1: in exactly the way that Carry Goldberg says these stories

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Speaker 1: often play out, which is why part of the reason

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Speaker 1: why I wanted to do this episode. Coleman is actually

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Speaker 1: admitted to the behavior that he's accused of, including revenge born.

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Speaker 1: It's important to keep in mind that this stuff all

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Speaker 1: happened when he was in middle school. I've seen various

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Speaker 1: reports of what age he was. I've seen twelve, I've

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Speaker 1: seen thirteen, I've seen fourteen. Um he first ran for

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Speaker 1: public office when he was seventeen years old, and he's

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Speaker 1: now nineteen. Aaron does not dispute that he did these things.

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Speaker 1: He himself wrote, I just want to make clear that

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Speaker 1: all of these allegations are both true and occurred only digitally.

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Speaker 1: I denounced these actions, and they are the actions of

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Speaker 1: a sick and troubled fourteen year old boy. And even

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Speaker 1: in that statement, I really see the ways that he's

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Speaker 1: minimizing his own behavior, reminding us that the own he

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Speaker 1: happened digitally. You know, Try telling that to the young

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Speaker 1: women whose lives he just disrupted, you know, by things

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Speaker 1: that only happened digitally. Like that's in and of itself

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Speaker 1: kind of a kind of a misnomer that things that

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Speaker 1: happen online don't impact your real world or your real life.

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Speaker 1: We know that's not how it works. So even in

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Speaker 1: that statement, I see the ways that he's minimizing his behavior.

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Speaker 1: So what ended up happening is that he got an

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Speaker 1: intimate photo of a classmate. It's not clear how he

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Speaker 1: got them. This girl says that she did not send

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Speaker 1: them to him. They were not in a romantic relationship.

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Speaker 1: He blackmailed her into sending him more photos, saying that

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Speaker 1: if she refused, he was going to send that photo

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Speaker 1: to all of her friends and family, And when she

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Speaker 1: didn't send them another photo, he did exactly that, and

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Speaker 1: it really sounds like it really disrupted her life. This

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Speaker 1: is only a sample of the kind of abusive behavior

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Speaker 1: that he's been responsible for. Another girl he arressed for

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Speaker 1: months until she attempted suicide. Aaron told her family, I

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Speaker 1: have moved on. They called the past the past for

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Speaker 1: a reason, because that's where you are supposed to leave things.

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Speaker 1: At this point, you shouldn't move on for me, You

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Speaker 1: should move on for yourself. And that just really doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound like the words of someone who has grown, who

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Speaker 1: has grappled with the severity and the seriousness of their

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Speaker 1: crimes and what they have done. That sounds like someone

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Speaker 1: who is not capable of doing that. Yet, telling the

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Speaker 1: family member of someone that you bullied into a suicide

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Speaker 1: attempt that they should move on for themselves is really,

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Speaker 1: I think quite telling. It sort of plays into a

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Speaker 1: common misconception when it comes to abuse that the past

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Speaker 1: is the past. You can just the perpetrator should be

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Speaker 1: allowed to move on by just saying they have moved on.

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Speaker 1: They don't have to actually make genuine, meaningful amends to

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Speaker 1: their to the people they've heard. Aaron Coleman has been

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Speaker 1: like a master class in how not to issue a

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Speaker 1: public apology. I feel that every time he has talked

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Speaker 1: about this s nation public, I want to pull him

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Speaker 1: aside and say, maybe you can have someone who actually

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Speaker 1: can talk with a little bit more empathy about the

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Speaker 1: situation help you with your statement before you it just

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Speaker 1: hits in. In one of his first statements after he

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Speaker 1: dropped out of the race on Twitter, he said, in

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Speaker 1: all seriousness, feminism hasn't got a chance so long as

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Speaker 1: Donnatism remains on the march, the progressive circular firing squad

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Speaker 1: has done more to uphold the status quo that conservatives

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Speaker 1: ever could have dreamed of. In case you don't know

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Speaker 1: what donnatism is, I didn't know what it was either,

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Speaker 1: So don't feel bad. Donatism is this idea that you

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Speaker 1: have to be faultless in order to get ahead. And

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Speaker 1: so even that statement I think is really bullshit because

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Speaker 1: why blame feminists for you having to resign for your

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Speaker 1: own behavior? You know, So that statement was not great.

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Speaker 1: His statement about moving on was also not great. When

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Speaker 1: Glenn Greenwald asked him, you know what he had done

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Speaker 1: to make amends, his first thing was that he said

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Speaker 1: that he had had a really hard life and that

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Speaker 1: he thought that society should be doing more to help

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Speaker 1: his victims, not just him. When you do something wrong

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Speaker 1: that is this heinous and this serious, you really have

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Speaker 1: to really know how to practice actual empathy and actual

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Speaker 1: like making an actual apology, and it's not just saying,

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Speaker 1: well you feminists win, okay, Like that's not an apology.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps unsurprisingly, a lot of people defended Coleman. Some even

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Speaker 1: made it seem like Coleman was the victim because his

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Speaker 1: critics were unfairly bringing up something from his past. Here's

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Speaker 1: how journalists Sager and Jetty talked about Coleman on his

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Speaker 1: new show after Coleman resigned from the race reached past

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Speaker 1: the headline, like you said, a nineteen year old with

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Speaker 1: a minimum wage job want to serve as an elective

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Speaker 1: representative is like, fine, if you guys are going to

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Speaker 1: treat me this way, why should I even participate? I mean,

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Speaker 1: the national norms around calling somebody out for behavior that

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Speaker 1: they engage in when they were literally twelve years old

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Speaker 1: just seems ridic he list to me, and yet I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen any real reckoning around the said and again

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Speaker 1: that speaks to the exact same thing that Carrie Goldberg

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Speaker 1: talked about in that interview, which is that as a society,

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Speaker 1: we are very quick to just say, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: made as Amend's. Boys will be boys. It's not that

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Speaker 1: big of a deal. He should be able to get

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Speaker 1: on with his life. And a lot of people defended

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Speaker 1: him by saying that it's unfair that he should be

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Speaker 1: accountable for things that he did in middle school since

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Speaker 1: now he's grown up and gotten older and all of that.

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Speaker 1: And ordinarily I would say that someone who commits a

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Speaker 1: crime when they're very young, like they shouldn't go to

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Speaker 1: jail or be tried as an adult for things they

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Speaker 1: did when they were young. But we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: whether or not Coleman should go to jail. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about whether he is fit for public office. And he's

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Speaker 1: the one who chose to run for public office at

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Speaker 1: seventeen and at nineteen, perhaps that he had put a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of time and distance between the time

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Speaker 1: that he was a young man who was doing these

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Speaker 1: crimes and the time when he was running for office,

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Speaker 1: it would be easier to believe that he actually has grown.

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Speaker 1: But it's only been you know, four or five years, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: already people who are nineteen have to show that they

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Speaker 1: are mature enough to be able to hold public office.

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Speaker 1: You're it's already a pretty high bar. If just four

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Speaker 1: or five years ago you were, you know, harassing and

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Speaker 1: abusing your classmates, it really does add another notch against you.

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Speaker 1: And again, I think that's something that Carrie Goldberg speaks

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Speaker 1: to in that interview, is our willingness to just uncritically

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Speaker 1: accept an abuser at their word that they have moved on,

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Speaker 1: that they have changed, that they you know, that they

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Speaker 1: have that they're a different person. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that's a real mistake. I think that as a society

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Speaker 1: we need to if if someone who has committed this

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Speaker 1: kind of heinous act tries to tell us that they've

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Speaker 1: moved on, they've grown. We need to see some sort

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Speaker 1: of meaningful demonstration of that and not just uncritically accept

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Speaker 1: that that is the case. And I have to say

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Speaker 1: I saw a lot of folks on the left, a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks in the meeting a journalists who really

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Speaker 1: shouldn't know better, just accepting and pushing this narrative that

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Speaker 1: he's grown, he's moved on, he's made amends, without really

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Speaker 1: taking a minute to ask what has he done to

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Speaker 1: show that he's made amends? What has he done to

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Speaker 1: to to illustrate this kind of growth, What is he

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Speaker 1: has he made? How do his how do his victims feel?

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Speaker 1: Right Like, we didn't really see that conversation playing out.

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Speaker 1: What we saw was people just uncritically accepting that he

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Speaker 1: has changed and moved on. So one of the supporters

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Speaker 1: that we bring up in that episode with Carry Goldberg

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Speaker 1: is Glenn Greenwald, who was really pushing this narrative that

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Speaker 1: you know, this was just quote bad middle school bullying

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Speaker 1: and that he's you know, it's in the past and

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Speaker 1: he's moved on and made amends. I found this one

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Speaker 1: quote from Greenwald to be particularly insulting, talking about the

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Speaker 1: fact that Coleman is you know, uh, it comes from

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Speaker 1: a working class background. Greenwald writes, if we say we

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Speaker 1: want more candidates from working class and poverished families running

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Speaker 1: for political office, as we should do, we make allowances

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Speaker 1: for the fact that deprived child hoods often produce averegent

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Speaker 1: behavior as a child that are not common among those

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Speaker 1: from more privileged backgrounds. And that, to me is just

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Speaker 1: anybody who comes from a working class background should be

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Speaker 1: so insulted, because there are plenty of people who come

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Speaker 1: from working class backgrounds who don't do this kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Revenge porn is not not a hallmark of a working

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Speaker 1: class background. People who grow up in working class families,

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Speaker 1: that's not a hallmark of you know, that's not like

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Speaker 1: part of their culture, right like, and pretending that it

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Speaker 1: is is so disingenuous and honestly insulting. Like I think

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Speaker 1: that trying to imply that people from working class backgrounds

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Speaker 1: all do this kind of thing is just is just

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Speaker 1: beyond the pale, because it's not true. Right, Plenty of

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Speaker 1: people grow up with hardship, plenty of people have really

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Speaker 1: hard lives. Most people don't seek out these complex revenge

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Speaker 1: porn schemes that involve blackmail. That's not common behavior. And

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Speaker 1: the more the more that we say that behavior is common,

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Speaker 1: and the more that we say that behavior is acceptable,

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Speaker 1: the less we will be able to talk about it

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Speaker 1: as the heinous, serious crime that it really is. Greenwald

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Speaker 1: said that we needed to have the quote full picture

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Speaker 1: of who Coleman is before judging his fitness for public office.

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Speaker 1: He did a pretty fawning thirty minute video interview with

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Speaker 1: Coleman on his website, The Intercept. Here's a little clip.

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Speaker 1: The fact that has such a passionate platform shows I've

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Speaker 1: I've changed. I was in middle school. I would grab

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Speaker 1: my past actions and I hope to continually leaned from

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Speaker 1: them as I grow into the person I hope to be.

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Speaker 1: I know I've made mistakes, but there's a reason I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm the only Democrat on the ballot. So in

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Speaker 1: that Glenn Greenwald interview, one of the questions that Greenwald

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Speaker 1: asked him is what are what's the evidence that you've

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Speaker 1: moved on that you've grown, And he answers that if

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Speaker 1: he had not moved on, wouldn't there be more allegations?

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Speaker 1: The allegations stopped at middle school. I didn't have he

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Speaker 1: says that he didn't continue to have allegations against him

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Speaker 1: in high school when he was you know, the allegations

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Speaker 1: stop when he was fourteen. He didn't have allegations when

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Speaker 1: he was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen. But we know

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Speaker 1: that is not how these things work. In that Carrie

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Speaker 1: Goldberg interview, it is so clear to me that this

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Speaker 1: kind of heinous sex crime, this kind of abuse doesn't

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Speaker 1: just happen in a vacuum. It is very unusual for

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Speaker 1: it to be a one time thing. It is more

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Speaker 1: often than not a pattern of abusive behavior against women,

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Speaker 1: and that's exactly how this played out. Coleman says that

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Speaker 1: his abusive behavior stopped when he was, you know, fourteen,

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Speaker 1: when he got older. Now he's a changed man at nineteen.

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Speaker 1: One of his ex girlfriends did an interview with The

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Speaker 1: Intercept this week, saying that Coleman physically attacked her, including

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Speaker 1: slapping her and choking her, just this past December. So

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Speaker 1: that completely tracks with what we know about abusers that

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Speaker 1: it's not typically just a one time thing or a

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Speaker 1: quote mistake. It typically is a pattern of abusive behavior.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that we that we know this this

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Speaker 1: is how abuse works. People who study this, people like

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Speaker 1: Carrie Goldberg, who know how this works and see it

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Speaker 1: day in and day out, have been very clear that

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Speaker 1: this is how this works. And yet so many people

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Speaker 1: who supported him, people like Glenn Greenwald, just accept that

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Speaker 1: this was a one time, quote mistake. Revenge porn is

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Speaker 1: not a youthful indiscretion, and it's not it's not something

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Speaker 1: normal that people do. It is a very serious and

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Speaker 1: heinous crime. And if we don't talk about it as

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Speaker 1: the serious, heinous, life ruining crime that it is, roorid

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Speaker 1: is going to say it was a one time mistake.

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Speaker 1: But that's how these things work. So some of the

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Speaker 1: supporters are saying that people are trying to cancel him.

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Speaker 1: People are saying that he, you know, shouldn't be in

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Speaker 1: public life. I don't feel like that's what people are

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Speaker 1: saying at all. I feel like people are saying that

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Speaker 1: if you're the kind of person who admits to this

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Speaker 1: kind of heinous crime, that it is completely reasonable to

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Speaker 1: scrutinize your fitness for public office. You are not entitled

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Speaker 1: to have a job in the House of Representatives representing

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Speaker 1: your state. That is not something that is your birthright

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Speaker 1: and to act as if that is ruining his life.

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Speaker 1: It's just not true. Nobody owes you a job. He

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Speaker 1: is more than welcome to, you know, continue his life.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that he has to be holding public office,

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Speaker 1: holding a position of trust in the community. So that's

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Speaker 1: the situation. My take on all of this is that

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Speaker 1: revenge porn and misogynistic abuse is not normal middle school

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Speaker 1: bad behavior, nor is it a class issue, and it

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Speaker 1: is entirely reasonable that Coleman should base scrutiny for this

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Speaker 1: kind of behavior if he's trying to get a position

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Speaker 1: that involves public trust. People who are talking about this

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Speaker 1: are not trying to ruin his life. It's not something

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Speaker 1: that was so far in the past that it's that

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Speaker 1: it's not fair to even bring up. It's completely reasonable

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Speaker 1: to bring up, and that would all be true even

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Speaker 1: if this be aavier did stop when he was fourteen,

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Speaker 1: but we know that's not how abusers typically work, and

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Speaker 1: his ex girlfriend says that he was abusive to her

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Speaker 1: just you know, this past December. It's overall, it's a

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Speaker 1: really bad situation because his opponent is anti choice, it

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Speaker 1: is not a really good candidate. But women really shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have to choose between an abuser and someone who wants

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Speaker 1: to control our bodies. And the way that Coleman has

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Speaker 1: continuously reminded people that he's pro choice, pro choice, that

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Speaker 1: he's not going to try to put more anti choice

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Speaker 1: laws in the books the way that his opponent surely would.

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Speaker 1: It just doesn't feel right to me. It almost feels

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Speaker 1: like this this sort of gotcha for women voters to

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Speaker 1: be like, well, do you want me the person who

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Speaker 1: abuses women or this guy who's going to control your body?

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Speaker 1: And that's not a fair choice for women voters. And

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Speaker 1: the way that he talks about being pro choice, it

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Speaker 1: makes it seem like abortion rights are a gift that

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Speaker 1: he's giving women voters. Jill flip I had really put

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Speaker 1: it well on Twitter. She writes, it's almost like these

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Speaker 1: guys see basic human rights for women as a gift

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Speaker 1: to be bestowed and met with great gratitude, and not

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Speaker 1: well basic rights. And truly this should not be our choice, right.

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Speaker 1: We should not have to choose between two different kinds

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Speaker 1: of creeps, you know, in the election. This is America.

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Speaker 1: We should have unlimited numbers of creeps to choose from.

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Speaker 1: Just kidding, So that's my take, But honestly, it's a

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Speaker 1: complicated situation and I really want to know what do

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Speaker 1: you all think? You know, what are your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: this story? It's a story that you followed. What are

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Speaker 1: your thoughts? You can hit us up at hello at

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Speaker 1: tangodi dot com and we would love to hear what

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Speaker 1: you think. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech,

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Speaker 1: or just want to say hi. You can reach us

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Speaker 1: at hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find

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Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridgetad.

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Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our

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Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our contributing producer. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow,

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Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. H