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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and we're all feeling pretty

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Speaker 2: precocious today. You're own stuff you should know? You know?

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Speaker 1: Judging from what just happened, I think if we released

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Speaker 1: a little five minute mini episode every week of the

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Speaker 1: five minutes before we where we're recording, but before we

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Speaker 1: start the stuff that we're doing, I bet people would

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Speaker 1: eat that up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, rate it R so, yeah, I'm sure some people

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Speaker 2: would like that the stuff you should know. Army definitely would, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Everyone else would be like, who cares what these guys

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Speaker 1: are talking about?

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Speaker 2: Off mine exactly. I tune in for facts and that's it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know who else would probably eat it up?

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Speaker 1: Chuck M I'm thinking about names in this. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was just going to start with Mozart. Oh, okay, Wolfgang, Amadas, Martza,

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Speaker 2: We're going to love that kind of thing. He was

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Speaker 2: really into hearing people talk candidly to one another. It

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Speaker 2: was one of his things.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're talking about child prodigies, and that's why you

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Speaker 1: bring up Mozart obviously thanks to Julia for help with this,

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Speaker 1: and also, this is the first time I think that

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Speaker 1: we're covering something that was a chapter in our book.

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Speaker 2: No, we've done it before, and I can't place it

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Speaker 2: really definitely. There was one other one that we definitely did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mister potato head.

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Speaker 2: No, no, I'll try to think of it and I'll

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Speaker 2: allocate about five percent of my brain to coming up

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Speaker 2: with it while we do the episode.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay. At any rate, this was one of the

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Speaker 1: chapters from our book, and we were both individually relieved

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Speaker 1: when we texted each other that we each read reread

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Speaker 1: the chapter and it was basically the same, and I

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Speaker 1: was worried. I was like, man, this is going to

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Speaker 1: be so different that one of them is going to

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Speaker 1: be sort of wrong. But long way of saying why

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Speaker 1: we talked about Mozart is because if you read anything

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Speaker 1: on the internet about child prodigies, Mozart's a name that's

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Speaker 1: gonna probably come up, one of the more famous prodigies.

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Speaker 1: And there's Julia found a pretty fun story about Mozart

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Speaker 1: as a teenager.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I actually went and listened to this miserare Yeah, miserrere.

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Speaker 2: It's a choral piece for like, I think, nine choral parts,

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Speaker 2: and it was written by Gregorio Aligari back in I

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Speaker 2: don't remember when he wrote it, but at least before

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Speaker 2: seventeen seventy, because that was the year that a young

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Speaker 2: Amideus Mozart, who was fourteen at the time, went to

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Speaker 2: Vatican City to hear this. And the reason he and

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Speaker 2: his father traveled to Vatican City is because this choral

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Speaker 2: piece was so beloved by the people, I guess the

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Speaker 2: Pope and all of his buddies. Yeah, that they forbade

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Speaker 2: anybody from performing it outside of Vatican City, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, a corollary to that was no one could

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Speaker 2: transcribe it, so that it was just to be heard

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Speaker 2: in Vatican City. They thought it was that beautiful. And

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Speaker 2: it's if you heard it, you probably recognize it. Your

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Speaker 2: mom probably listened to it while she was cleaning the house,

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Speaker 2: or you heard it on like, yeah, America's top forty

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Speaker 2: in the seventies or something.

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Speaker 1: I've just I've been distracted ever since you said the

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Speaker 1: Pope and his buddies, because now I can think of

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Speaker 1: this a sitcom called Pope in Company that's not bad

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Speaker 1: ampersand's CEO dot obviously.

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Speaker 2: Right, and the Pope has his like favorite reclienter that's

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Speaker 2: almost like an extra character.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't sit in it if you're not that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, a very revered thing within Vatican City. And

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Speaker 1: did you mention that no one could transcribe it? I

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Speaker 1: certainly did while you were I was were space distract. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was really thinking about like what the opening credits

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Speaker 1: to that sitcom would look like.

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Speaker 2: Do you have the theme song in your head?

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Speaker 1: It's clicking around up there. I'm no prodigy, so it'll

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Speaker 1: take a minute. But you mentioned the transcription because Mozart,

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Speaker 1: as a precocious fourteen year old, couldn't fall asleep apparently

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Speaker 1: the night after the performance, so he woke up from

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Speaker 1: his slumber and transcribed it even though he wasn't supposed

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Speaker 1: to from memory as a fourteen year old. Went back

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Speaker 1: heard it a couple of days later and was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I made a couple of mistakes from memory. He realized

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Speaker 1: this and went back and fixed them. He had hit

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Speaker 1: it in his hat because you know, he wasn't allowed

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Speaker 1: to have this transcribe. But just kind of a fun

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Speaker 1: story of Mozart's precociousness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he was at he was age fourteen,

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Speaker 2: so technically by this time he was a former prodigy.

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Speaker 1: Oh, is that the cutoff?

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Speaker 2: No? Ten is the cutoff. You have to have achieved

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Speaker 2: this by ten to be considered a prodigy. But the

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Speaker 2: reason I said generally is because if you go by

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Speaker 2: the strictest definition of prodigy, there are only a handful

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Speaker 2: of the ones we talk about in this episode, or

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about, actually qualify as prodigy. And technically Mozart,

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Speaker 2: you could make a case if he was a prodigy,

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Speaker 2: he was kind of a poor example of a prodigy

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Speaker 2: because he went on to do great things as an adult,

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Speaker 2: which is also something that's not usually characteristic of a prodigy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we also need to kind of spell out

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Speaker 1: the difference between genius and prodigy because they're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: the same thing. Well they're not the same thing at all,

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Speaker 1: but they can overlap at times. I guess it's the

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Speaker 1: better way to say it.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, and I think Mozart would be an example

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But genius usually is a high IQ

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Speaker 1: or a high Q score of one hundred and forty,

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Speaker 1: but they may not, you know, ever, achieve anything. You

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Speaker 1: can be a genius and not achieve anything great. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you probably will if you're a genius, but not necessarily.

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Speaker 1: Prodigy doesn't necessarily have a high IQ. They often do,

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Speaker 1: but oh yeah, there it is right there generally by

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Speaker 1: the age of ten. But what a prodigy is is

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Speaker 1: a kid that achieves like, like surpasses adult lever levels

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Speaker 1: of mastery by the time they're ten, like stuff that

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of adults can't even achieve an

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Speaker 1: expertise or you know, like I can do this math

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Speaker 1: or this chess or this play this you know, instrument

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Speaker 1: better than an adult who's been doing it for decades

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Speaker 1: before the age of ten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they reached like the elite level where you can't

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Speaker 2: really get any better as far as adults go, by

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Speaker 2: the age of ten. And then one of the other

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Speaker 2: things about being a prodigy then is that by definition,

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Speaker 2: you have achieved something. Yeah, whereas like you said, but

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Speaker 2: being a genius, you are genius throughout your whole life,

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Speaker 2: but you may or may not achieve something. Right, to

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Speaker 2: be considered a prodigy, you have to have achieved something.

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Speaker 2: It's just part and parcel with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and prodigies were all the rage sort of in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the twentieth century, when tabloid journalism started

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Speaker 1: and when IQ tests started, they were all over the newspapers.

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Speaker 1: People just were, you know, amazed and want you know,

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Speaker 1: in alle of these these kids who could do these

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Speaker 1: amazing things. They were all over the place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the term pint size was thrown around a lot.

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Speaker 2: But they would they would like reporters would interview them

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Speaker 2: to ask them their thoughts on like current events and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that, and they'd be quoted extensively in the paper.

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Speaker 2: And people, I mean people like you said, were in awe,

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Speaker 2: but they were also like, oh, it's a pretty good point.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about that, you know, so they were

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Speaker 2: taken seriously too. And then there's a couple of other

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Speaker 2: points that kind of make up prodigies that we've kind

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Speaker 2: of figured out over the years. One of the things

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Speaker 2: we should say about prodigies is that there's a surprising

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Speaker 2: lack of people working on this. There are some people

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Speaker 2: who study prodigies, and they're experts in the psychology and

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Speaker 2: neurology of prodigies, but because there's so few people working

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Speaker 2: on it, we don't have a full grasp on it.

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Speaker 2: So it's largely speculation, but it seems like we're starting

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Speaker 2: to get on track about what makes a prodigy. But

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Speaker 2: even still, there's not like a cut and dried, uniform

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Speaker 2: definition of a prodigy. Some extra things though, that usually

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Speaker 2: show up in particular is that they usually excel in

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Speaker 2: just one field of knowledge, a domain, and then in

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Speaker 2: that specific field of knowledge, they excel in one kind

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Speaker 2: of sub section of it. So for example, if you

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Speaker 2: were a music prodigy, you probably are a prodigy in say,

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Speaker 2: classical music. You're not like classical jazz ska, right, you're

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Speaker 2: a prodigy in just one yeah. Yeah, So that's another

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Speaker 2: frequent thing too. You just get really, really really good

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Speaker 2: at one specific thing. That's a characteristic of prodigies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there you know, you can be a prodigy

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Speaker 1: in anything. A lot of times. You'll see it in

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Speaker 1: music and the maths. Chess is another good one that

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Speaker 1: you see a lot of prodigies in. But you can

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Speaker 1: really be a prodigy in anything. But it's, like you said,

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Speaker 1: a narrow range. But they usually exhibit one intelligence type

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Speaker 1: if you're talking about like psychological intelligence type, linguistic, mathematico, logical, spatial, visual, musical, kinesthetic, Yeah, interpersonal, interpersonal,

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Speaker 1: and naturalistic. And you know it's a rare that a

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Speaker 1: prodigy excels in more than one of these. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the that's multiple intelligences theory that Gardner I can't

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Speaker 2: remember Gardner's first name put out in the early nineties

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Speaker 2: and it basically overturned the idea of general intelligence, which

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Speaker 2: up to that point that's what everybody thought people had.

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Speaker 2: And Gardner was like, no, actually, I think it's like

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Speaker 2: carved into different areas and people can kind of take

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Speaker 2: from each of those. Then that would that makes up

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Speaker 2: your intelligence, not just a big general encyclopedia version of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but it seems to be pretty well, pretty well accepted

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Speaker 2: these days. But like you said, most of the time

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Speaker 2: they'll excel in just one of the Again, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're probably not a linguistic prodigy and an intra personal

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Speaker 2: prodigy where you are really good at examining yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And how you get to be a prodigy is,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty complex, and we'll see later. It's probably

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Speaker 1: a combination of a bunch of different things. It's definitely

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Speaker 1: a combination of nature and nurture. And they've done some

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Speaker 1: studying and we'll get to some studies later on about

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Speaker 1: the you know, genetics and the biology of it all

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Speaker 1: and like brain function. But there is a psychologist who

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Speaker 1: is also in our book, Ellen Winner, and she's one

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Speaker 1: of the people if you look up prodigies, she's one

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Speaker 1: of the few experts you talked about that knows a

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Speaker 1: lot about this stuff. But she she believes in both

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Speaker 1: nature and nurture, but she very much is like, there's

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Speaker 1: got to be a genetic component. And she has a

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Speaker 1: quote if a child suddenly, at age three goes to

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Speaker 1: the piano and picks out a tune and does it beautifully,

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Speaker 1: this has to be because that child has a different brain.

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Speaker 1: And I totally agree, like there's something you're born with.

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Speaker 1: If you if you've ever seen the videos of Tiger

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Speaker 1: Woods when he's like two years old with a pretty

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Speaker 1: perfect golf swing, like it's that that's something that someone

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Speaker 1: is born with, right.

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Speaker 2: There's also Julia found a quote from an editor of

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Speaker 2: Vanity Fair who mentioned Elizabeth Bentson we'll talk about a

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Speaker 2: little bit more, but he agreed that it was probably biology,

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Speaker 2: but he hasscribed it to a perfect functioning of her

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Speaker 2: endocrine glands, so interesting. He figured it was glandular as

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Speaker 2: what was behind being a productory. But the point is

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Speaker 2: it was biology. And this is nineteen thirteen, by the way,

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Speaker 2: so like right now, right now, it's no, it's not

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirteen, it's nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank god, I've got of my son riches and

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Speaker 1: my OPI thanks up.

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Speaker 2: I know, you look kind of out of place, man.

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Speaker 1: So the other thing about genetics is you can see

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Speaker 1: it in like, you know, there can be blings that

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Speaker 1: are prodigies, like together, I guess co prodigies. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it definitely sort of leans to the idea that it

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Speaker 1: could be genetic. There are quite a few male, very

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Speaker 1: famous male composers who had sisters who were also prodigies

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Speaker 1: and amazing composers in pianist sur violinists or what have you,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't get the you know, the attention that

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Speaker 1: their you know, brother sibling counterparts got because they were girls.

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Speaker 1: Maria Mozart was one. Felix Mendelssohn had a sister named

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Speaker 1: Fanny who was a music prodigy m H. And then

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Speaker 1: others that you often see mentioned obviously are Venus and

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Speaker 1: Serena Williams, and then the Polgar sisters who were Judet,

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Speaker 1: Susan and Sophia.

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Speaker 2: They were chess prodigies, right, And you were thinking about

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Speaker 2: Pope and Company as a sitcom. Well, I was studying this.

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Speaker 2: I noticed Felix and Fanny would make a good children's

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Speaker 2: book series, right. Oh yeah, Like I just imagine them

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Speaker 2: as little kids, and in between piano lessons they go

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Speaker 2: off and solve mysteries together. Felix and Fanny series. And

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Speaker 2: so anytime I think of children's books, I think of

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Speaker 2: our literary agent, our former agent, Stephen Barr.

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Speaker 1: Oh. Yeah, So I looked him up to.

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Speaker 2: Say hi, and I was looking I was looking him

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Speaker 2: up on the internet. He has his own children's book

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Speaker 2: that he wrote and published. It's called The Upside Down Hat.

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Speaker 2: And so I emailed him and congratulated him. I was

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Speaker 2: very excited to see that. Yeah, he's got some more

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Speaker 2: coming too.

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Speaker 1: Stephen was the best, and I knew he had a

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Speaker 1: kid since we had worked with him. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: super cool. I love that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got two now. He says, two.

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Speaker 1: Kids are two children's books.

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Speaker 2: Two kids three children's books, including the two that are

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Speaker 2: coming out soon.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess he needs to get a third kid, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Write one for Yeah. It's called the Upside Down Hat

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Speaker 2: and it's pretty cute looking.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's wonderful. So I guess let's take a break. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess the last thing we should say is, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mentioned sort of the perfect storm of things to

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Speaker 1: make a prodigy, and that definitely seems to be the consensus.

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Speaker 1: Like there's some genetics at play, but the cognitive, developmental

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Speaker 1: and environmental factors are all kind of coming together at

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Speaker 1: the same time to lead to that what Ellen Winter

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Speaker 1: calls a rage to master, which we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about out of the break, that seems to be the recipe, right.

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Speaker 2: It makes me wonder, like how many things have we

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Speaker 2: just not understood that we could have already. Have we

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Speaker 2: not constantly been trying to boil everything down to one

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Speaker 2: thing like this is one cause for all this other stuff,

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Speaker 2: like is it nature? Is it nurture? No, it's both,

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Speaker 2: And I'm glad to see that prodigy researchers have accepted

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Speaker 2: that fact.

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Speaker 1: Greed.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's take that break then.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back. All right. So I

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Speaker 1: mentioned the phrase rage to master, and that was something

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Speaker 1: I believe Ellen winner came up with and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of exactly what it sounds like, which is something that

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Speaker 1: they found with prodigies. At these these little kids come

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Speaker 1: out of the womb, they get to be like two

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Speaker 1: maybe three years old, and all of a sudden, out

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Speaker 1: of nowhere, they exhibit a gift. And that's the only

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Speaker 1: thing they want to do. And this is not some

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Speaker 1: kid who's like, hey, they turned out to be pretty

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Speaker 1: good at this, and they played a lot of piano,

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Speaker 1: like we're talking about prodigies. Like, they become obsessed with

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Speaker 1: they have a rage to master this thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just basically like they ignore everything else,

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Speaker 2: even stuff that little kids would want to do, like

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Speaker 2: fun playing stuff, yeah, going to.

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Speaker 1: The movies or whatever, making friends.

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Speaker 2: All they want to do. Yeah, All they want to

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Speaker 2: do is that one thing over and over and over

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Speaker 2: again and master it. And so there's a researcher named

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Speaker 2: Larry Vanderbert who who believes that it has to do

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Speaker 2: with the connection between the cerebellum and the cerebral cortex.

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Speaker 2: And the reason he focus isn't on the cerebellum is

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Speaker 2: because apparently that is where we learn things, we become

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Speaker 2: experts in things, we learn to practice things, and the

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Speaker 2: cerebellum has a bunch of connections to the cerebral cortex.

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Speaker 2: Cerebral cortex is in charge of our higher functioning. So

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Speaker 2: with those two combined together, working together, us doing things

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Speaker 2: repetitively is how we learn to get better and better

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Speaker 2: at it. Right, His whole thing is that with a prodigy,

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Speaker 2: what we're seeing is the evolution of humanity at its

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Speaker 2: brightest point, Like these are examples of what could conceivably

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Speaker 2: be every single person if that perfect storm you're talking

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Speaker 2: about came together, and it's just like the most finely

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Speaker 2: tuned functioning example of what our have evolved to be

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Speaker 2: able to do. That's what he says prodigies are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. He theorizes that the cerebellum creates

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Speaker 1: some kind of feedback loop is what he calls it,

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Speaker 1: where you have, you know, some kind of selective affinity

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Speaker 1: or a talent or an interest in something and getting

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Speaker 1: better at that. I mean, it's got to be like

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Speaker 1: a dopamine reward or something like that. It hits those

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Speaker 1: reward centers and there's some sort of psychological gold star

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Speaker 1: that you give yourself and that feels so good that

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Speaker 1: this that the kid with a prodigious brain is constantly

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Speaker 1: seeking that reward and it creates what he calls a

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Speaker 1: maximal grip, Like this grip has just got hold of

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Speaker 1: this kid because they're always seeking that that mental gold

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Speaker 1: star of getting better and better and better at that

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Speaker 1: one thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, so it's almost like they're there. They have

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Speaker 2: no chill, right, they it's like their brains get stuck

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Speaker 2: in a natural progression or natural part of developing as

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Speaker 2: a human being from childhood to adulthood, and they just

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Speaker 2: go off like a rock on that one tangent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that was not me.

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Speaker 2: No, it wasn't me either.

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Speaker 1: I can do a lot of things pretty good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a dileton.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's always been my thing. Like with sports,

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Speaker 1: I was never like built the way that you needed

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Speaker 1: to be built to play like varsity sports. But I

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Speaker 1: could throw a football and catch a football and pun

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Speaker 1: of football, and I could play little tennis. I can

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Speaker 1: play a little golf. I can you know, I played

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Speaker 1: you know, a little baseball, little softball, little soccer and

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Speaker 1: kick a soccer ball. I can throw frisbee, like you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm well rounded athletically, But I was never gonna be

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Speaker 1: on a like a a high school team, right, I gotcha.

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Speaker 1: I was okay in church league.

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Speaker 2: Everybody went.

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't embarrass myself in anything. You know.

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Speaker 2: I excelled as a child in hiding my knockoff Flintstone

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Speaker 2: vitamins in my Lincoln log houses because they were so

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Speaker 2: disgusting I couldn't eat them. I can actually almost make

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Speaker 2: myself nauseated thinking about him. Now.

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Speaker 1: Really, Betty was not a vitamin.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember that. Was she not? She was missing?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so, because I there was a local

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Speaker 1: band in Atlanta called Betty's Not a Vitamin? Okay, because

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Speaker 1: of that factod.

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Speaker 2: Well, had she been in the flintstone knockoff vitamins, I had,

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Speaker 2: she would have looked all misshaped and her name would

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Speaker 2: have been like Teddy or something like that with two

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Speaker 2: with three t's.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: There's one other thing about Larry Vanderwert's hypothesis about the cerebellum,

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Speaker 2: because he said, you know, this is a weird like

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Speaker 2: example of human natural human development. He pointed out that

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Speaker 2: part of what being a prodigy is excelling at something cultural, right,

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Speaker 2: like everything that prodigy kids do. They're not inventing anything,

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Speaker 2: they're just getting good at something that already exists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So part of his theory hypothesis is that you

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Speaker 2: couldn't have a prodigy by definition before the event of culture.

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Speaker 2: So he theorizes that probably about ten thousand years ago

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Speaker 2: is when the first prodigies started to pop up.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I thought it took son her daughter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah maybe great great great great great great great great

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Speaker 2: grandson or daughter. Okay, yeah, good point, that's my posit I.

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Speaker 1: Never remember when tuk took lived, so you know, me,

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Speaker 1: I get a little confused.

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Speaker 2: He's all over the place.

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Speaker 1: So another really interesting biological piece to this is memory

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Speaker 1: and working memory is something that they found. I think

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Speaker 1: there was a paper in twenty twelve by researchers Irbach

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Speaker 1: and Rutsots. They gathered cognitive data from eight child prodigies

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Speaker 1: and they looked at a couple of things. They looked

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Speaker 1: at their developmental history. They looked at scores on the

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Speaker 1: Stanford Benet fifth Edition Intelligence test and the autismctrum quotient,

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Speaker 1: and they found, you know, there were different range of IQs,

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Speaker 1: but even the ones had high IQs weren't on the

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Speaker 1: extreme end. Of like you know, super genius or anything.

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Speaker 1: But what they did find was that every single one

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Speaker 1: of them were then the ninety ninth percentile for working memory.

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Speaker 2: I saw some also scored in the ninety nine point

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Speaker 2: ninth percentile, so.

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Speaker 1: Like there's something there.

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Speaker 2: I was reading I think a Scientific American article on this,

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Speaker 2: and they said that if you just randomly selected eight

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Speaker 2: people and gave them this test, like there's a zero

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Speaker 2: chance that they would all score in the ninety ninth percentile.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it is quite a finding. But I think

400
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Speaker 2: also like a really important finding too, is that their

401
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 2: IQs aren't particularly eye popping. Yeah, but you know some

402
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 2: of them were I think past one forty, and that's

403
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Speaker 2: the one fortis the minimum for genius. One thirty, I

404
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: think is where being gifted starts. At least one of

405
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 2: them had an IQ of a hund that is exactly

406
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: average IQ. So IQ or intelligence, or at least the

407
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: way that we understand measuring intelligence with IQ. See, it

408
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to have that much to do with being

409
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Speaker 2: a prodigy. Has some because again one hundred I think

410
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: was the minimum, and they went up to genius level

411
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Speaker 2: and passed, But it doesn't have nearly as much as

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Speaker 2: you would think.

413
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But working memory, like that's really interesting

414
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Speaker 1: to me because that's the last like, that's your active

415
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 1: working memory, the last few things that have happened, calling

416
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 1: those up really easily. So if you're talking you know

417
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: about obviously with you know, musicianship and chess and math

418
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Speaker 1: and things like that, like being able to really quickly

419
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Speaker 1: recall the last few notes you played, or the last

420
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: few parts of this logarithm, that's that's gonna have a

421
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Speaker 1: big impact obviously.

422
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Speaker 2: For sure. There's a good example that I found of that,

423
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Speaker 2: John von Newman, who would go on to become a

424
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: great mathematician, physicist, pioneering commuter computer science. He as a

425
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: child prodigy, would entertain his parents' friends at their parties

426
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Speaker 2: by they give him a phone book and he would

427
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 2: read over one of the pages and then hand the

428
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 2: phone book back, and they'd ask him questions like what's

429
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 2: you know. They'd pick a name and say what's their

430
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: phone number and address, and he'd tell them and then

431
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: they'd say, well, recite this whole page, and he would

432
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Speaker 2: recite it verbatim just after looking at it for a

433
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: little while, which is an amazing example of working memory.

434
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: But that's also I mean, he was a phone book prodigy,

435
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: pure and simple.

436
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: As you know. I recently had lunch with a friend

437
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: of the show and pal Kevin Pollack, the actor, yes

438
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: and comedian, and sadly you were out of town so

439
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: you couldn't go. But Pollack's first his first act was

440
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: not doing it because he's a great impressionist, as we

441
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: all know, not doing impressions of comedy albums. Like a

442
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: lot of kids, the first thing they do is like

443
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: just repeat the bits from comedy record or specials, right.

444
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: He would he would mouth them in perfect synchronicity.

445
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

446
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: So he would do air air comedy and he would

447
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 1: do like the throat clears and everything, and he did it,

448
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: you know as like I don't know how young he was.

449
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: He said he was like six or seven to where

450
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: like one of his mom's neighbors or one of his

451
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: neighbors or one of his mom's friends was like, you're

452
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 1: doing this at the you know, the shine bombs, bar

453
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: mitsv it next week, like I'm booking you. And he

454
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: was like for the first six years or so of

455
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: his life, like he did at school, like my act

456
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: was completely just mouthing these comedy bits.

457
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 2: That's pretty awesome. Yeah, it's fun. It's impressive. He was

458
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 2: a Richard Pryor comedy album prodigy.

459
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: Well, I mean he made a good point which was

460
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: he was like, the material killed because the material was great,

461
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: because it was like the best comics. And he went

462
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: and then I got it down so good that part killed,

463
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: and he was like I couldn't fail.

464
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: Basically, that's pretty great man.

465
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, fun story.

466
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So one other thing about working memory, Chuck,

467
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 2: before we move on. One of the things that that

468
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: helps with is learning things like chess or math, or

469
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 2: things that have steps to them. You're keeping the information

470
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: you need to complete this step so you can move

471
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: on to the next and you're probably also thinking about

472
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: what the next step is too simultaneously. Working memory really

473
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: comes in handy for that. So it makes sense that

474
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: they have just amazing working memory levels.

475
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the connection to autism is really interesting too

476
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: because in that paper, you know, and from twenty twelve,

477
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: I mentioned that they looked at cognitive data for several things,

478
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: one of which was the autism spectrum quotient, and they

479
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: found it. You know, they found a pretty undeniable connection.

480
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: They found that subjects who were prodigies had definitely had

481
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: more autistic relatives than the general population does, and very

482
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: high scores and the attention to detail part of the

483
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: autism spectrum quotient. So you know, attention to detail is

484
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: something obviously if you have a gift for you might

485
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: wind up a prodigy.

486
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they didn't score high or beyond the general

487
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: population and the other parts of the autism spectrum quotient. Yeah,

488
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: so they don't have autism. I think that's because there's

489
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 2: a separate group where if you have like severe autism

490
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: or some other cognitive difference, you are a savant. You're

491
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: not a prodigy. You're a savant, even though the stuff

492
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: you're doing is prodigious. It's yeah, you're you're considered separate

493
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: for some reason. I don't know why, but that seems

494
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: to still be the case.

495
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Those same two researchers, Ruth Zots and

496
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: was it Ulbach Ulrock Urbabach, Urbach Jerry Orbach Jerry Orboch,

497
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: they did it. They authored a second paper, and this

498
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: is from twenty fourteen, where they studied eighteen prodigies this

499
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: time and they were masters. These eighteen and either math, music,

500
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: or art, and some of the patterns they found were

501
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. They all had that same great working memory,

502
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: so that was sort of proved out a little further even,

503
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: but the music and math prodigy scored a lot higher

504
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: on working memory than even the art prodigies, and this

505
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: was super interesting to me. The math prodigies displayed the

506
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: highest levels of overall intelligence and extraordinary visual spatial skills,

507
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: where as the art prodigies had the lowest visual spatial scores. Yeah,

508
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: which is weird, Yeah, counterintuitive.

509
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: Should we take a break or keep going? Yeah, let's

510
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 2: take a break. Okay, We're going to take a break.

511
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: Everybody here, we go. Okay, Chuck. So we've talked a

512
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: couple of times about how prodigy experts agree that it

513
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: does seem to be a combination of nature and nurture.

514
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: I think perfect storm is a term that people use

515
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: a lot. So the parents of a prodigy definitely do

516
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: have a role in their development as a prodigy, and

517
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: there have been parents of prodigies who have really kind

518
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: of claimed that they're essentially responsible for their child's prodigy.

519
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 2: There was a I think William James Sittis's dad, Remember

520
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: we did a whole episode on that poor guy. Oh yeah, deal,

521
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: he was one of the most amazing child prodigies of

522
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: all time, just beyond gifted, just dusted other prodigies like

523
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: made them look like just lumps of unmolded clay, done

524
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: by an artist prodigy with terrible visual spatial skills. Essentially,

525
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: I love it. But he's but he was worth his

526
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: whole his own episode. It was a good episode. But

527
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: his dad, Boris was taught him from a very early age,

528
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: essentially from basically when he was born, and he essentially

529
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: claimed responsibility. There's another very famous prodigy whose name was

530
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: Winnifred Sackville Stoner junior, and her mom was Winnifred Sackville

531
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: Stoner senior, and her mom claimed responsibility for her child's prodigy.

532
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: We'll talk a little bit more about them, but parents

533
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: do play a huge role, even when even if it's

534
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 2: not quite as far as some of them boast.

535
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, if you're going to be

536
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: a prodigy at golf or tennis or you know, piano

537
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: or something like that, it requires you know, those those

538
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: things aren't cheap. I mean, certainly there are stories of

539
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: people who from a family that maybe you know, didn't

540
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: have the kind of resources that other families might have

541
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: that you know, find a local municipal golf course where

542
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: they can go and play super cheap. But those are

543
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: like those are kind of rich kid sports pianos cost

544
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: a lot of money. So a lot of times with

545
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: these if you look at the parents in the family situation,

546
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: they are very involved parents who have resources to make

547
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: it happen, not only with equipment, but dedicating the time

548
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: and hiring a lot of times at very expensive hourly rates,

549
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: like masters in that thing to help teach that kid.

550
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, you can boil it down to

551
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: a handful of factors that parents play a large role in. First,

552
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: you have to start that with the kid has a

553
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: natural ability, right, you don't teach that that has to

554
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: exist already.

555
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: Yes.

556
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: Then that the kid has to have access to those teachers.

557
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: And like you said, these aren't Joe Schmoe teachers like

558
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: teaching out of their house on the side for a

559
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: little extra cash. These are like the best of the

560
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 2: best teacher experts in this field. That's who the parents

561
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: need to have the resources to pay, and those teachers

562
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: have to come in at just the right moment. I

563
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: don't think it's necessarily down to the minute, but they

564
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: have to come pretty early in the kid's development so

565
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: that the kid doesn't get bored because they've gone as

566
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: far as they can go, or because they don't necessarily

567
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: understand what would even be next.

568
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, or you know, you might get lucky and have

569
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: that within your own family, like I I mean, I

570
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: think Wolfgang van Halen. I don't know what age he

571
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: achieved his level of talent, but you know he had

572
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: a built in situation with his father and was the

573
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: touring bassist and backup singer with Van Halen when he

574
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: was like sixteen years old, and can play everything, like

575
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: I mean, he's not just a guitar guy, but he

576
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: plays on his records with his band Mammoth. He plays

577
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: it all. He plays the drums, he plays the keyboards,

578
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: he plays the bass, he plays the guitar, he does

579
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: all the singing. He's like, you know, he's a prodigy,

580
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: and he had a built in teacher as a you know,

581
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: one of the greatest guitar players of all time.

582
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: I thought you were joking. I didn't realize that Eddie

583
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: van Halen's son is named Wolfgang. I thought you were

584
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: making a joke about Mozart.

585
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: We no, I mean that is kind of funny.

586
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: Well, Mozart's father is he was a music teacher as well.

587
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: And his name was Eddie Vnhalen.

588
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: Sorry. Yeah, so yeah, if you have a like you said,

589
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: a built in family member already that knows what they're

590
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: doing and can teach you at least early on, that

591
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: helps a lot. I think also Picasso, his father was

592
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: an art instructor, but oh I didn't know that. Yeah,

593
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: Picasso just excelled way beyond his father, very very early on.

594
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: I think his father also kind of took that a

595
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: little personally. Seems like the type.

596
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, there are some exceptions here, Like

597
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: with everything, it's not like every single prodigy has had

598
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: the means and the resources and the parents that threw

599
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: everything at them to try and help them. And one

600
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: notable exception Julia found was Blaize Pascal, the French math prodigy.

601
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: He was born in sixteen twenty three and at the

602
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: beginning of his schooling, his dad very famous appetition. At

603
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: the end, Pascal said, I want my kid to learn

604
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: more than math, and math is so interesting. If he

605
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: gets a hold of these math books. He's going to

606
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: ignore everything else because math is so incredible, and so

607
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: he hid all the math books in his house. But

608
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: young Pascal got an outdated math book somehow that was

609
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: in English, even though he only spoke French. And he

610
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: was so smart in such a prodigy, he translated that

611
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,239
Speaker 1: and reinvented parts of that of like geometry in that

612
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: book that weren't in the book.

613
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, he also came up with probability theory later on.

614
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 2: Like he was definitely a math prodigy, and so he

615
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: overcame an absence of material. There's also some good examples

616
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: of prodigies who overcame a like an absence of resources, right, So,

617
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: like they came from very poor families, like Stevie Wonder

618
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: is a very good example of that, self taught musician

619
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: on all sorts different instruments, and his parents did not

620
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: have their resources to buy them all these things. There

621
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 2: was another guy from the turn of the last century

622
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: named Srinivasa Ramanujohn and he was very poor in India,

623
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: came from a very poor family, and he, like Blaize Pascal,

624
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: got his hands on an outdated math book and just

625
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: taught himself math and became he ended up studying at Cambridge.

626
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are definitely those examples,

627
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: but they're they're also on the other side, like plenty

628
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: of examples of you know, the the nurture thing going

629
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: in a bad direction. Yeah, where the parents have and

630
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: I know we Julie didn't cover this, but in our

631
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: book we covered. Do you remember who wrote that chapter, by.

632
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: The way, I think it was yours.

633
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: I think it was too so long ago. I don't remember,

634
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: I know you mean, but I think it might have

635
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: been mine because I remember very much wanting to include

636
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: and did include in the book the story of Time Marinovich,

637
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: who was a prodigious quarterback, and another you know example

638
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: at Jennifer Capriotti, the tennis prodigy. Like they were kids

639
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: who were both excelling to the point where they were

640
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: young teenagers and sports illustrated being written about, and they

641
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: were pushed by these overbearing fathers in their case, and

642
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: they both burned out and washed out and ended up,

643
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, having problems with drugs and problems with the

644
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: law and stuff like that. So there are some pretty

645
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: sad cases there where parents take what could potentially be

646
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: a good thing and just ruin it because their parents.

647
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: You know, I was reading today about Venus and Serena

648
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: Williams and their tennis prodigy status. I guess, but yeah, Richard,

649
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 2: their father, Richard Williams, he had Venus turned pro at

650
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 2: age fourteen because the USTA was about to release the

651
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: Kapriati rule, which was like U king urn pro after

652
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: a certain age because Jack Dicapriotti was such a cautionary tale.

653
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: So before the rule could be passed, Richard was like,

654
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: you're turning pro now. And her debut she beat number

655
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: sixty six and almost beat number the top seeded player

656
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: at her first professional tournament age fourteen. Yeah.

657
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: Boy, those William's sisters were fun, or still are fun

658
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: to watch. I didn't see that movie, did you, King Richard?

659
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. Okay, moving on, Yeah, we have nothing

660
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: to say about it then, apparently.

661
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of moving on, we're to the point where

662
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: we talk about when you're not a prodigy anymore, because

663
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: you mentioned early on you know, once you have mastered

664
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: this thing, that's it, and a lot of times that

665
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: is it. Some you know, there are different stories. Some

666
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: some flame out and go down a bad road. Some

667
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: go on to have you know, great careers doing their thing,

668
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: like you mentioned Mozart obviously, but some going to have

669
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 1: great careers and it's not like a super famous situation

670
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: like Mozart, but they do great for themselves. But you know,

671
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: it's like being a child movie star, Like once you

672
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: reach a certain age, that sort of appeal might be

673
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: over the adorableness of the kid that can play the

674
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: piano at ten years old, right, and you're just an

675
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: adult who can play the piano really well, and all

676
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're not special anymore, and that can

677
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: lead to a big fall.

678
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it can because you're essentially, especially at the

679
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: early on in the twentieth century when the papers would

680
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 2: track you down and ask your opinion as a child prodigy,

681
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: you were a child star essentially, and that is not

682
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: something that society has figured out how to handle properly.

683
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: We don't know what to do with child stars, so

684
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: instead we just chew them up and spit them out

685
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: and say good luck, we don't need you any longer.

686
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: That same effect in general can happen to child prodigies,

687
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: and one really good example is Bobby Fisher. He's He's, He's.

688
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: The cautionary tale for child prodigies and how bad things

689
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 2: can get after you're not a prodigy anymore.

690
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, he was the chess prodigy. I've recommended

691
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: it before, but the great, great film Searching for Bobby

692
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: Fischer is so so good, highly recommended. But he was

693
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: born in Chicago in the forties, was playing competitive chess

694
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: by the age of eight and when the US opened

695
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: at fourteen, and became the youngest international grand master at

696
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: fifteen years old in nineteen fifty eight. Fifteen years old

697
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: in six months. But when his career fell, he fell

698
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: hard and spent a couple of decades roaming around southern

699
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: California destitute. He spent nine months in a Japanese prison,

700
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: and is kind of known, you know, for the last

701
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: couple of decades of his life as being a pretty

702
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: hateful anti Semite.

703
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he he. I don't know if he had

704
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: a blog or something like that, but after nine to

705
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: eleven he publicly celebrated it on his blog, like he yeah,

706
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: he really just took some seriously weird turns, and yeah

707
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 2: he was. He's just a great example of how bad

708
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: things can get after society's done with you and you're

709
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: not useful anymore not adorable or noteworthy. I think also

710
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: he clearly had some mental health issues that were yeah,

711
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: probably going to emerge either way.

712
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, being a.

713
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: Child prodigy and it's such a weird way to grow

714
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: up that could not have helped at all.

715
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, there are other cases of kids,

716
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: and here's a piece of advice. You can do what

717
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: you want if you've got a really pretty genius kid,

718
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: but don't send your kid to college at like twelve

719
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: years old. Now, I just I don't see that ever

720
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: leading to good things. I think you should try and

721
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: normalize a child's childhood as much as possible, even if

722
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: they're you know, unchallenged in school. There are other ways

723
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: that you can foster that, I think, besides saying you're

724
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: going to Harvard at eleven and you're going to be

725
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: in the newspapers for that. The case of Elizabeth Benson,

726
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: she was a two hundred and fourteen plus IQ kid

727
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: who went to college at twelve and graduated and disappeared.

728
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 1: And later on that was one of those like where

729
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 1: are they now? Articles? And this is no shade at

730
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: somebody who's a cashier. It's a fine job, and we

731
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: need cashiers. But the article very much was like this

732
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: former child prodigy is now just a cashier, and that

733
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: was sort of how it was framed.

734
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, but despite that, she kept like batting away that

735
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: that kind of sentiment and just talking about how happy

736
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: she was. She's she was married. She was very happy

737
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: with her very normal life with her very normal husband.

738
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 2: And this is a person like a two hundred and fourteen,

739
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: it has a plus next to it, which might as

740
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: well be an asterisk. She scored perfectly on an IQ test.

741
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: And the reason that plus is there is because they

742
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: imagined she could have kept going, but they ran out

743
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: of questions.

744
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: Y got a question.

745
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she and she even considered herself in the

746
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 2: art article. She said, you know, based on the stories

747
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: of some of my peers, like I actually got off

748
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 2: pretty well, Like I'm happy with life as an adult, right, Yeah,

749
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: but yeah, she's an example of one that went pretty well.

750
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: But the best that you could do if you don't

751
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: eventually turn into an adult who starts contributing greatly to

752
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: your fields of interest, like Mozart, like John von Newman,

753
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: like Pablo Picasso, the best you can hope for is

754
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: to lead a normal life as an adult.

755
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: You know, I keep thinking you're gonna say John bon

756
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: Job every time.

757
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: I keep wanting to call him Johann too, and it's

758
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: not oh interesting.

759
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned Winnifred Sackville Stoner Junior or early on.

760
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: She was a language prodigy in the early twentieth century,

761
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: probably most famous for in fourteen hundred ninety two Columbus

762
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: Aaled the Ocean Blue was written by Winnifred Sackville Stoner Junior.

763
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: But her mom was one of those parents that really

764
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: really pushed her a parent mm hm, and gained a

765
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: lot of fame. Like the mother did, she wrote books

766
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: about it. Was sort of like Royal Tanninbaum's when Ethelene Tannenbaum,

767
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, talked about her prodigious family of children. And

768
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: I think we mentioned the tann and bombs in the book,

769
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: of course, because I wrote the chapter. Yeah, that's one

770
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: of my favorite movies. But the mom gained a lot

771
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: of attention and was on the like the lecture circuit

772
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and the daughter was like, you know,

773
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: take my advice, dear mothers, spare your children from so

774
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: called fame which easily turns to shame, and be happy

775
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: if you have a happy, healthy, contented boy or girl,

776
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: Amen to that.

777
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great advice, great advice. So if you have

778
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: a child prodigy on your hands, trade carefully, console experts,

779
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 2: maybe get in touch with Ellen Winner. I'm sure she'd

780
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: be very happy to speak with you and tell you

781
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 2: what not to do. So there you go. That's our

782
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: annual dose of advice for the parents of child prodigies.

783
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also want to say, I bet it's

784
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: not the easiest thing though, to be fair to parents,

785
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's it puts them in a tough position

786
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: if your kid is obsessed with this one thing and

787
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: clearly super gifted, because you don't want to squash that.

788
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a tight rope you're walking there,

789
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: so you know, I get it.

790
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's not a position I would

791
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: necessarily want to be in. But heck no, you've got

792
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: some really great fodder for your your annual Christmas letter

793
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: that you send out with your Christmas card.

794
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

795
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 2: You want to make your your sister in Boise feel jealous.

796
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: You talk about you talk about your child prodigy and

797
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: what they're doing.

798
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've only known one person in my life that

799
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: does that, and that is an Emily's family. Her aunt

800
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: Peg sends out the annual Christmas sort of family catch

801
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: up thing, and I've always just been delighted to read

802
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: it and thought it was super cool and wondered why

803
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: no one in my lousy family ever cared enough to

804
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: do anything.

805
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 2: That's a very so high o thing to do.

806
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: Oh is it okay?

807
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure, I get it. Before we go on

808
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: to listener mail, Chuck, I just want to point out

809
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: a couple of at least one good band and album

810
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 2: named Rage Semaster.

811
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: Oh, very nice.

812
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: And then I think you could make a pretty good

813
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 2: bon Jovi tribute band with Johann bon Jovi, right.

814
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: Or John bon JOHI yeah, there you go.

815
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: John von Newman, by the way, we can get that

816
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 2: except for stuff you should know listen, Yeah, that's true.

817
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: What were you going to say, because I want to

818
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: hear what out?

819
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: You know what I was going to say?

820
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: Do you say it?

821
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: Bada bing bada boom Banjovi?

822
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: And there Chuck has unlocked listed her mail.

823
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: This is a correction of sorts, and this is something

824
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I'm glad to know when we did

825
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: our USAID episode we were talking about condoms for Gaza.

826
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: This is from Bernie. He said, I think you guys

827
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: did a great job. Just wanted to clarify something. Fifty

828
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: million dollars for condoms was not for Gaza as in

829
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: Gaza next to Israel. It was for Gaza Province and Mozambique.

830
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: Elon Musk even correct this in one of his weird

831
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: Oval Office press conferences, but as you said, the SoundBite

832
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: had already gone out and people did not want to

833
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: hear any retraction to what they now believe. So glad

834
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: you guys covered this topic is so important globally. Someone

835
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: who's been in this line of work for my entire

836
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: adult life, this episode really hit home to me. Keep

837
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: up the great work, all the best, Bernie F. Chavis.

838
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Bernie. That was very gentle correction and

839
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: we appreciate those rather than I can't believe you guys

840
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: screwed this up this badly, which we get once in

841
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: a while, but for the most part we hear gentle

842
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 2: corrections like Bernie, So hats off to you and thanks

843
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: for setting us straight. Bernie. If you want to be

844
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 2: like Bernie and send us an email, you can. You

845
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: can send it off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

846
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

847
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

848
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.