1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,400
Speaker 1: He actually may disagree with you, but defend to death,

2
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,640
Speaker 1: you're right to say it. Greg luki on Off, It's

3
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Armstrong Getty extra large.

4
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,320
Speaker 2: Because four hours simply.

5
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,759
Speaker 1: This is Armstrong and Getty extra large. Greg luki on

6
00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,599
Speaker 1: Off is an attorney, New York Times bestselling author and

7
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,720
Speaker 1: the president and CEO of FIRE, the Foundation for Individual

8
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,320
Speaker 1: Rights and Expression. That there is no more important cause

9
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,840
Speaker 1: on earth than the right to free speech. Everything else

10
00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 1: flows from there. Greg, welcome, How are you.

11
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,320
Speaker 2: I'm pretty good. How are you going? We're great.

12
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,520
Speaker 3: Glad to have you back on the Armstrong and Getty

13
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,600
Speaker 3: show again. You got my attention around the Fourth of

14
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,600
Speaker 3: July celebration stuff with some of your tweets when you're

15
00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:49,680
Speaker 3: pushing back against some of the numbskulls that were attacking

16
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,519
Speaker 3: the country and basically saying that we're a force for

17
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 3: evil in the world and that sort of stuff. And

18
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 3: then also some of your stuff around socialism, you tweeting

19
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 3: out something that we talk about a lot. I got

20
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 3: two kids in high school right now. They've never learned

21
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,760
Speaker 3: anything good about the free market or anything bad about

22
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,200
Speaker 3: socialism in all the years of schooling. The only reason

23
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 3: they know anything about it is from me you tweet

24
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,840
Speaker 3: the other day. It represents a massive generational failure of

25
00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,400
Speaker 3: our k through PhD system that they didn't learn the history, philosophy,

26
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 3: or economics that would have prevented them from falling for

27
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,840
Speaker 3: the same mid wittery that too many of our grandparents

28
00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,240
Speaker 3: fell for. So between your bassing of the schools and

29
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 3: socialism and standing up for the United States, what say you?

30
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 2: I believe there's nothing more patriotic than a constitutional lawyer,

31
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,240
Speaker 2: even if sometimes they don't know that or not. And

32
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 2: I think that essentially, like those of us who defend

33
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,160
Speaker 2: the First Amendment, those of us who defend the Bill

34
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 2: of Rights, we're standing up presuming very special in human

35
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 2: history and very special and unique about America. And I

36
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,840
Speaker 2: say that a lot less apologetically than most.

37
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was I don't you know, there's a

38
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 3: little bit of nutpicking going on where the stuff that

39
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 3: makes those of us who love the country the angriest,

40
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 3: we share the things online that got under our skin.

41
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 3: But it's amazing how many people seem to sincerely feel

42
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 3: that the United States in this experiment has been not

43
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,640
Speaker 3: only a failure internally, but a failure for the world,

44
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 3: bad for the world.

45
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's one of the things that I was

46
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 2: taken on on the fourth of July was, you know,

47
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 2: I ran into this a lot at law school and

48
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 2: when I started meeting kind of like you know, like

49
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 2: wealthier kids and that kind of stuff. Is how much

50
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,240
Speaker 2: you would run into this kind of disdain for the

51
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,120
Speaker 2: idea of America being exceptional. And it's like, if you

52
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 2: don't think it's exceptional, then you just don't understand history

53
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 2: very well. Maybe because it's by whatever definition you come

54
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,640
Speaker 2: up with, whether it's economic strength, whether it's the you know,

55
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 2: it's the world's oldest and first attempt to have a

56
00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 2: large scale democracy. For goodness sakes, it's the first meaningful

57
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,760
Speaker 2: full of rights. It's the longest constitutions been around. When

58
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 2: you look at the inventions, the dynamism that's come out

59
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,480
Speaker 2: of it, when you look at the contributions of everything

60
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 2: from you know, we if it wasn't for America, for example,

61
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 2: Europe would have would be dominated by Germany maybe maybe

62
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 2: even to this day. I mean, just one thing after

63
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 2: the other things we like about the world hip hop, uh,

64
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 2: you know, jazz music, barbecue, you know, bourbon. For goodness sakes,

65
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,440
Speaker 2: like there is so much to be proud of. But

66
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 2: but even if you're not proud of it, just recognizing

67
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 2: that it's an incredibly influential, dynamic, bizarre, historical force. You know,

68
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,920
Speaker 2: you can't deny that part, or at least if you're

69
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 2: denying it, you're sure you don't know that much about

70
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,600
Speaker 2: other countries, right, And.

71
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 1: I would argue that the United States and it's it's systems,

72
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,480
Speaker 1: which you've been exupported throughout the world, have also brought

73
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 1: a lot more justice to more people than any other system.

74
00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 1: And and what makes me insane, And again, this happened

75
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 1: on our watch. So I'm blaming my generation for assuming

76
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,600
Speaker 1: everybody believed in thought the same things we did. And

77
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 1: we also assumed incorrectly that schools were the way they

78
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: were when we were kids and they had not been

79
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 1: captured by left wing ideologues. But anyway, the fact that

80
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,159
Speaker 1: the United States and his history has been compared to

81
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: some sort of heavenly perfection as opposed to every other

82
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: effing system that's ever been tried by man since the

83
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 1: dawn of man, and these kids, and it's not their fault,

84
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,000
Speaker 1: don't understand the good.

85
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, and that's that's one of the reasons

86
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,000
Speaker 2: why kids like me. You know, both my parents were immigrants.

87
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,240
Speaker 2: I grew up in a neighbor with a lot of

88
00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 2: other immigrant kids, and you know, first generation kids, and

89
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,080
Speaker 2: you don't take that kind of stuff for granted when

90
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,600
Speaker 2: your your family is sleeing to atolitarianism or authoritarianism. And

91
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 2: it was it's weird, particularly in sort of like like

92
00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 2: sort of like America's like richer educated strata, about how

93
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 2: often they seem to not know very much about other

94
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 2: about other countries and what their histories are and actually

95
00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,520
Speaker 2: like what they're like, because I sometimes refer to as

96
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 2: europe worship that essentially like like it's like this, there

97
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 2: are these perfect states over there, and we're just these

98
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 2: weird barbarians. And it's like when your mom is British

99
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,640
Speaker 2: and your dad is Russian, like this just sounds like

100
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,160
Speaker 2: weird kind of you know, sort of exotification of places

101
00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 2: because they have better cheese than us.

102
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 1: And I always call it the xenophilia, and people see

103
00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,839
Speaker 1: say you mean xenophobia, and I said, no, I'm pretty

104
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 1: good at talking. I meant zenophilia. People who have an

105
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: unnatural attacktion, attachment to, and passion for the foreign and

106
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 1: they never exactly yeah to that.

107
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:46,960
Speaker 3: To that point, I've asked, We've had I don't know

108
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,760
Speaker 3: how many different thinkers, historians or whatever on the air

109
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,720
Speaker 3: over the here. Has this ever happened in history where

110
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,480
Speaker 3: a country's population turned against itself, where they decided it's

111
00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 3: children or are then taught it's children to hate themselves.

112
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,120
Speaker 2: I think it's a periodic cycle now that taught their

113
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 2: children to hate themselves. I think is something that's a

114
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,600
Speaker 2: little more rare because just a lot of previous societies

115
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,600
Speaker 2: didn't have, you know, massive centralized educational systems like we do.

116
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 2: But I do think that countries and empires and civilizations

117
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 2: lose faith in themselves. They become obsessed with everything that

118
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,880
Speaker 2: they're doing wrong. I mean, you know, Edward Gibbon talking

119
00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,680
Speaker 2: about the Horizon, the decline and fall of the Roman Empire,

120
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,280
Speaker 2: you know, talked about how there was this sort of

121
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 2: like ingrained, sort of like contempt for all of the

122
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: things that actually made the Romans great. So I do

123
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,719
Speaker 2: think it is a little it is part of a

124
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 2: normal cycle. But unfortunately, the thing that tends to break it,

125
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,040
Speaker 2: if it can be broken, is something really bad happening

126
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 2: and I'd like to remember us, to remember what the

127
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,720
Speaker 2: stuff that makes us so special is without having to

128
00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,480
Speaker 2: be something like World War Two, which actually did break

129
00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 2: a cycle similar to this with a lot more sort

130
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 2: of growing, sort of like we're not accept we're terrible.

131
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 2: We're just like, you know, we should give into totalitarianism,

132
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 2: either from the right or the left, which is all

133
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,800
Speaker 2: over the nineteen thirties, but World War Two kind of

134
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,640
Speaker 2: reminded us that, no, we're about something big and beautiful

135
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,360
Speaker 2: and broad.

136
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: Just as in the side Greg. Prior to twenty twenty,

137
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 1: Jack used to always ask me, do you think we

138
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,120
Speaker 1: can heal this and get it back together? And I said,

139
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 1: essentially what you just said, it's going to take a

140
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,880
Speaker 1: giant war or a pandemic. Well we checked off one

141
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: of those and it didn't help. And more on that

142
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:33,400
Speaker 1: to come.

143
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 2: You know.

144
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 1: It just it bothers me so much. The knee jerk, lazy,

145
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,360
Speaker 1: look how enlightened I am. I'm going to say something

146
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 1: critical about America. It's just so lazy, stupid. It's like

147
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,800
Speaker 1: dealing with a teenager that's stupid. Yeah, would you like

148
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,000
Speaker 1: to go to the park that's stupid? Do you want

149
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,320
Speaker 1: to watch TV? That's stupid.

150
00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 2: Oh and just to be clear, you know, they have

151
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,040
Speaker 2: every right to have that a bit and I will

152
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 2: go to But at the same time, it's like, what

153
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,680
Speaker 2: do you think the rest of the world and the

154
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 2: rest of history actually look like it's you know, particularly

155
00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 2: having like family that had to flee the Soviets for

156
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 2: goodness sakes, and watching this within my own lifetime, within

157
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 2: a tiny, tiny frame, having to explain, no, my dad

158
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 2: fled the Soviets, and I spent a lot of time

159
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,080
Speaker 2: after the wall fell in Eastern Europe and nobody was saying, boy,

160
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: wasn't that just so swell? I'm so happy. I'm so

161
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 2: sad that we have you know, prosperity and tourism and dynamism,

162
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 2: you know, I hear now like and honestly, that really

163
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 2: does fall a lot down on k for PhD not

164
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,319
Speaker 2: teaching young people that. It's like, yeah, fascism was terrible,

165
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,920
Speaker 2: it was evil. They spend like, you know, they spend

166
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,200
Speaker 2: like an hour on that, they spend like three minutes

167
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,480
Speaker 2: on solon and they don't have any sort of sense

168
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,240
Speaker 2: of of comparison to the rest of history. I have

169
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,600
Speaker 2: to like teach my kids about me too. You too

170
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 2: have to ask compared to what.

171
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of the great lines Joe Bidenoy's used

172
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 3: to use. It actually is apt here. It's the don't

173
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 3: compare me against God, Might God Almighty compare me against

174
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,520
Speaker 3: the other guy. And that's the same way with the countries. Yeah,

175
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 3: comparing yourself against perfection, you know, to the fall of

176
00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 3: the Roman Empire and all that sort of stuff reminds

177
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,319
Speaker 3: me of Christopher Hitchins said one time that a lot

178
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,240
Speaker 3: of people don't realize when the barbarians take over, when

179
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 3: the barbarians at the gate, there's usually somebody there holding

180
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 3: the door open for them. That's the way civilizations fall,

181
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 3: the people that have turned against their own country. Or Yeah,

182
00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,240
Speaker 3: there are people in the United States right now that

183
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 3: would hold the door open to let in you know,

184
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,959
Speaker 3: Islamo fascists or communists or whatever, because they somehow think

185
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:48,680
Speaker 3: that would be better.

186
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

187
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,199
Speaker 2: No, it's weird because I think of it as a

188
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 2: kind of narcissism. And and I said this, you know,

189
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 2: like when I was living in San Francisco, for example,

190
00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 2: and as a kid, I we'll say, like there was

191
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 2: another kind of narcissism, kind of like what I call

192
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 2: positive narcissism about the US that bugged me as a kid,

193
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,840
Speaker 2: because I've learned things like, you know, like in seventh

194
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 2: grade that essentially the American bomber campaign won World War Two,

195
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,440
Speaker 2: and it's like, well, no that you know tens of

196
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 2: millions of Russians. You know, you had a big part

197
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 2: to play in that. So like the patriotic kind of

198
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 2: like everything good is from us is silly in its

199
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,560
Speaker 2: own way. But I thought even worse was everything bad

200
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 2: comes from us, because like basically, if your story is

201
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 2: either like Daddy is all good or all bad, you're

202
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 2: still just thinking about daddy, old mine. You're still just

203
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 2: thinking about your own family and having a dad. My

204
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 2: dad would teach me about like ninth century Russian history,

205
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,880
Speaker 2: you know, at length. You really like how funny Americans

206
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 2: can be sometimes to think we created all the problems

207
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,320
Speaker 2: of the world that were old when other countries were new, right.

208
00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely true. So I made reference to the COVID thing.

209
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 1: It's a little more top of mind than perhaps last week,

210
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 1: just because the Fauci Diary story coming out coming out

211
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,679
Speaker 1: these days, and as we record this, you know, you

212
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: come in on that or don't. It's entirely up to you.

213
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 1: But our position is that the whole COVID thing, the

214
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: whole COVID response, was an unbelievable incursion on civil rights,

215
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 1: including free speech, and that it's absolutely worth going over

216
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,079
Speaker 1: again because if we say, ah, well, what are you

217
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: going to do every time our rights are trampled on?

218
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,079
Speaker 1: No matter what you think of effing Donald Trump or

219
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:41,440
Speaker 1: Anthony Fauci or or whatever, it will happen against Cinner.

220
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,920
Speaker 1: What bothered you the most or what do you remember

221
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: most acutely about that time?

222
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,079
Speaker 2: Oh about twenty twenty twenty was so bad that we

223
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,040
Speaker 2: decided at fire to expand beyond campus, Like so it

224
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 2: really you know, we used to just battle for free

225
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,880
Speaker 2: speech and that coming freedom on campus, but it was

226
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,440
Speaker 2: the situation for free speech was so dire both on

227
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 2: an off campus, that were like, okay, I guess we

228
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,400
Speaker 2: actually have to take on the whole world now because

229
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 2: this is this is ugly. I remember in the course

230
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,200
Speaker 2: of like a couple of weeks, people were getting fired

231
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 2: from newspapers, you know in some cases, you know, websites,

232
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 2: news websites that they helped that they founded because they

233
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,880
Speaker 2: were engaged in wrong thing. It was an ugly, scary

234
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:28,960
Speaker 2: dark period.

235
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we now know in the last forty eight

236
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,880
Speaker 3: hours since Rand Paul put out the Fauci Diaries that

237
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,040
Speaker 3: Anthony Fauci came to the conclusion very quickly that the

238
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 3: it was a lab leak and probably happened earlier than

239
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,080
Speaker 3: the Chinese were admitting. And so for a variety of

240
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,840
Speaker 3: reasons that maybe we'll learn in the hearing tomorrow with

241
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,240
Speaker 3: Rand Paul, it became something you couldn't say out loud,

242
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,319
Speaker 3: and Zuckerberg wasn't allowed on Facebook, and it wasn't allowed

243
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:57,760
Speaker 3: on Twitter and all that sort of thing.

244
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god, So I'm behind on this. When you

245
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 2: mentioned that, I'm like, I haven't read the BOUTI thinks

246
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 2: that's that's horrible. I didn't. Really, that's even worse than

247
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,600
Speaker 2: I was expecting. And by the way, I remember watching

248
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,840
Speaker 2: people jump down each other's throats when someone would mention

249
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 2: the Lablik theory in like March of twenty twenty and

250
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 2: just being like, no, dude, there was no secret investigation

251
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 2: of China that no one else has heard of that

252
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 2: actually exonerated China. And you're acting like we know for

253
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,559
Speaker 2: a fact this cannot possibly be a athlete. And when

254
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 2: you see things like that, you start getting like when

255
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,320
Speaker 2: someone's like that defensive and like, it makes a lot

256
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,679
Speaker 2: of us, you know, who are you know, students with

257
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,240
Speaker 2: human nature be like, oh I get it, this is

258
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 2: actually true. That's why you're overreacting.

259
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 1: Right right, my god. If I know truth is on

260
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,560
Speaker 1: my side, I want the other guy to speak, I

261
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 1: enjoy it. I'll give him a little suck at a second.

262
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 1: A second the idea of you know, silencing your opponents,

263
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 1: and that's actually what I was going to get to Greg,

264
00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 1: help us everybody listening, and Lord knows, this is been

265
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: addressed by various stages throughout history, including some of our

266
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:09,360
Speaker 1: founding pappas. What is your simple explanation to an eight

267
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,839
Speaker 1: to twelve year old about why the free exchange of

268
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,320
Speaker 1: ideas is the only way to go?

269
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,880
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, No, I mean the way I explain

270
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,800
Speaker 2: it is that freedom of speech is the best invention

271
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: humanity ever came up for innovation, for authenticity, and for

272
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:36,200
Speaker 2: beeaf and for self rule, for representative government, for democracy

273
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 2: ever invented. And the beast part people really miss because

274
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,120
Speaker 2: it's like, no, it's a decision to decide conflicts through

275
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 2: without regard to violence, but through heeded oftentimes persuasion that

276
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 2: replaces the single most common way we solved conflicts in

277
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 2: the past, which is violence or the threat of violence.

278
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 2: And then when you add to that, so it became

279
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,160
Speaker 2: this incredible tool for peaceful coexistence. But at the same

280
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 2: time it gives us everything from medicine to self understanding

281
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,560
Speaker 2: to the chance to just be ourselves sometimes.

282
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think everybody needs to have in their holster

283
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: speech isn't violence? Free speech prevents violence, because it's unquestionably true.

284
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when and we see what's going on in

285
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 2: Europe at the moment, since they're really clamping down on

286
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 2: free speech, particularly in the UK and Germany, that you're

287
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 2: still you know, you're starting to have, you know, breaks

288
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 2: of violence in places like Ireland for example, and that's

289
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 2: gonna get worse because you don't solve the problem by

290
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 2: saying just demanding that nobody talk about it.

291
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's amazing that that free speech argument you just

292
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,440
Speaker 3: laid out seems so correct to some of us and

293
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 3: like beyond dispute, Yet you have to fight it on

294
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 3: a regular basis, kind of like socialism. As we see

295
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 3: what's happening in parts of Europe, free speech is like

296
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 3: not the natural state of man apparently.

297
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 2: Well, and oh it absolutely is not. I mean I

298
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,920
Speaker 2: call my sub sect the eternal radical Idea, because I

299
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,080
Speaker 2: say that in every generation, most people rise up to

300
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 2: oppose freedom of speech. So the fact that some of

301
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,640
Speaker 2: us who defend freedom of speech around the winning side

302
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 2: is actually radical idea in every generation that essentially like

303
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 2: this sounds you mean, everybody gets to talk. Sounds a

304
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 2: little bit crazy to people, but again it is this.

305
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 2: It's been this absolute revelation in the course of human

306
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 2: history to let more people speak, to let them argue

307
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 2: it out, to let people believe what they believe, not

308
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 2: just because not just because sometimes like our actually per

309
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 2: is wrong all the time, but also for this very

310
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 2: simple but crucial point. If you're not safer for knowing

311
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 2: less about what people really.

312
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 1: Think, right right, I'm a bad host. I should have

313
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 1: plugged Greg your terrific book with Nadine Strawson, The War

314
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: on Words, Ten Arguments Against Free Speech and Why they Fail,

315
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 1: Really really good, very very affordable in everybody ought to

316
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 1: pick up a copy and you know, become a fellow warrior.

317
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love that. Nadine is the former head

318
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,719
Speaker 2: of the ACLU. You know, we talk about arguments that

319
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,040
Speaker 2: people make against free speech. The Travis Nuts and Fire

320
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 2: is is the hardest working, you know, free speech organization

321
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 2: and show business. Because right now, you know, threats are

322
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 2: coming for every direction, and the picture globally looks pretty

323
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 2: grim for free speech. So we gotta we got to

324
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 2: stand up and fight for it.

325
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,919
Speaker 3: That would be a good ending spot. But I'm not

326
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 3: going to end there because I want to us to

327
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,959
Speaker 3: be the one to read this to you from Anthony

328
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,040
Speaker 3: Fauci's diary since you haven't seen this yet. Oh wow,

329
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 3: this is from January twenty sixth, twenty twenty, Anthony Fauci

330
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 3: writing his own diary. It now appears, using EPI data

331
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 3: and genomic data that the first infection was in early

332
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 3: December and not connected to the market. Now we know

333
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 3: the market was not the source. It was the amplifier.

334
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,679
Speaker 3: That's part of the from that day. He knew that

335
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 3: early on the Chinese had been misleading them. The market

336
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 3: amplified it. But that's not where it started.

337
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.

338
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,240
Speaker 3: And as soon as you know, you got you got

339
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,160
Speaker 3: your account shut down on Facebook or Twitter or lots

340
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 3: of places or you couldn't be on cable news if

341
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,239
Speaker 3: you said anything close to what Anthony Fauci said in

342
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,120
Speaker 3: that diary entry.

343
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wrote a whole piece talking about like,

344
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 2: let's say you have an alternative universe in which China

345
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 2: has a free press. We probably would have known about

346
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 2: this disease breaking out fast enough to be able to

347
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 2: contain it. Absolutely, really don't appreciate how important that is.

348
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 3: Trillions of dollars millions alive saved if that would happen.

349
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: So every time we talked to Greg, LOOKI on off,

350
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,600
Speaker 1: I am fired up anew to be a pro free

351
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 1: speech warrior in my own little way. Jack as well. Greg,

352
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 1: It's always great to talk, stay in touch, and to

353
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,199
Speaker 1: the good folks listening, I will I will tell you

354
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: I personally support fire are both the financially and verbally.

355
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: And I think you ought to too. Greg. It's great

356
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 1: to talk.

357
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: Thanks, Yeah, thank you so much.

358
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was fun.

359
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:08,440
Speaker 2: Glad we could do.

360
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 1: It all right? Yeah, take care, Greg, Let's let's talk

361
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: again soon.

362
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yep.

363
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 3: And now you got to hang up, Michael or we

364
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 3: have this really uncomfortable. We keep saying goodbye and he

365
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,200
Speaker 3: keep saying goodbye.

366
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: No, you hang out, you're smoothy.

367
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,640
Speaker 3: I I feel guilty taking the time of a guy

368
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 3: as smart as him, almost. I just you know, I'm

369
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 3: sorry you have to talk to a dollard like myself.

370
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 3: But throw questions out. You'll see how you answer.

371
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: I like golden retrievers, you know, And they're not terribly right,

372
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: they're just lovely. And so he pets us and we

373
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 1: and off we go.

374
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 3: So my final note on this, she said, I keep

375
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 3: getting sucked back into this super smart friend of mine

376
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 3: who who who's uh is a liberal? I shouldn't say

377
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,399
Speaker 3: it was. They're not dead and they haven't changed their

378
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 3: political views. But I'm remember when the FBI or CIA,

379
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 3: whichever one came out, because they both have saying that

380
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 3: the most likely thing is the virus came out of

381
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 3: the lab. Yeah, but it's not. They're not certain. They

382
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 3: just think it's most likely, all right. Why why hold

383
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 3: on to the fact to the lie that we now

384
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 3: know Anthony Fauci put out a lie and some people

385
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 3: are still willing to hold onto it, even when all

386
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 3: our intelligence agencies say the most likely things it came

387
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 3: out of the lab.

388
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 1: I was so intrigued by human nature and horrified. I

389
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 1: don't get that I can't relate to it. I you know,

390
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,919
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about myself. Yeah, I don't.

391
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: It's it's very, very difficult to relate to other people's

392
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: emotional and intellectual lives because you're not living in their brain.

393
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: I don't understand why people aren't more intent on knowing

394
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 1: what's true. Because if I get something wrong, for instance,

395
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: on the podcast Slash radio show, and I find out

396
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: I was wrong, I'm mortified, I'm embarrassed, I'm regretful. I

397
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 1: kick myself for not working harder and figuring it out.

398
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: And so if somebody says and when we get emails

399
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 1: and you know, text messages or whatever and say, hey,

400
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: you guys, I think you're missing something on this, my

401
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 1: reaction is an F you. It's oh crap, what what

402
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: do you mean? Talk to me? I want to know

403
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 1: and I don't understand people is it insecure. I don't

404
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: want to come off as high handed because I think

405
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: your delta genetic cards you're dealt. But I don't understand

406
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 1: wanting to inoculate yourself from the truth. Well.

407
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: I hate to always bring it back to this, but

408
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 3: like the particular person that I'm thinking of talking about

409
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 3: it would be admitting that Trump and Fox News was

410
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 3: right and they just can't live in that world.

411
00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: All right, Hey, friends, sometimes Trump is wrong, He's wrong,

412
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: a lot of times he's right. Sometimes he's kind of

413
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 1: in the middle. Sometimes Joe Biden was wrong, Sometimes he's right,

414
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 1: sometimes he's kind of in the middle. Shall I go on?

415
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 1: It's okay, But it's the quasi religious tribalism that is

416
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: reinforced by the Internet every single day that I think

417
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: may be the disease that's causing the symptoms that we're

418
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: talking about. Outlaw algorithms, outlaw the Internet, unplug it, yank

419
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: the cord extra large