1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know Selects. It's 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: a Saturday, but I'm here anyway because I love you. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: This week, I am choosing The Wind Cries Typhoid Mary 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: from oct two thousand eleven, and Uh, to be honest, 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: I think this one well for a couple of reasons. 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: A is because I love it. I love our history 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: podcasts and this one was super super interesting. And uh, 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: the other reason is, UH, to be honest, I really 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: just love this title, The Wind Cries Typhoid Mary. I 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: titled this one myself, and I just wanted to see 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: it in our feet again because I like looking at it. 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: So here we go, The Wind Cries Typhoid Mary. Welcome 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, 14 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: am welcome to the podcast son Josh Clark. There's Charles W. 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: Greeny Boy, Chuck and Bryant and Jerry back in the 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: his house. None more guests producing. No, that was a 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: rough week, she was, but she's back. Hey Jerry, did 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: you hear that? Everybody? Probably not Chuck Jerry. Have you 19 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: guys ever heard how much manure a horse produces in 20 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: a day. I'm glad you went with this. I was 21 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: never really occurred to me. Go ahead, pounds twenty five 22 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: pounds of manure? Did you do the math? Because I did? 23 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: All right, Well, you come with that in a second, okay, So, um, 24 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: just go back with me a little bit, chuck to 25 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: the time when Daniel day Lewis was walking around New 26 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: York with a meat cleaver, overacting a little bit in 27 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: my opinion. Um, And it's the the late nineteenth century, 28 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: and the horse is the is the preferred of transportation 29 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: for everything from the most humble delivery cart to the 30 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: greatest ambulance to you know, people who like to ride horses, 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: three musketeers, that kind of thing. Everybody had a horse 32 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: to the limit, to the airport wherever. So there were 33 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: about two hundred thousand horses in New York City in 34 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: use in right, Yeah, multiply that times twenty five pounds 35 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: of poop a day and what do you get? Chucked? Well? 36 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: I did two because I thought that was the number. Okay, 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: So that's fine, we'll go with that. More than six 38 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: point two million pounds of horse poop per day deposited 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: on the streets of New York. Okay, Now, um, let's 40 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: say that's okay, Okay, Um, there's that many horses. There's 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: six point two million pounds of horsepoop every day. It's 42 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: a lot of poop. But not only that, there was 43 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: no one cleaning it up. It was not enough people 44 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: cleaning it up. Let's say that for sure. It was 45 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: just left there basically in a lot of cases, um, 46 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: to basically be ground into the cobble stone. And you know, 47 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: it makes you think, like, I'll bet there's a substantial 48 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: layer of horse manure under the streets of New York 49 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: that make up like that initial stratum of of of Earth, 50 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: the pupa sphere. Thank oh wait, that would be an 51 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: utter space. No, no, because the lithospheres. Yes, so you 52 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: were dead on thank you the pupa sphere. Um, things 53 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: change a little bit. The New York institutes a Department 54 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: of Health and a group of basically an army of 55 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: cleaning guys, very much like the um the garbage man 56 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: that Homer Simpson envisions in the in the It's the 57 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: Garbage Commissioner episode. I can't remember which one it is, Uh, 58 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: the Loveday episode is what it is? Okay. Um. These guys, 59 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: they're called white wings. They are deployed to clean up 60 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: the streets of New York and they do a heck 61 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: of a job, and possibly the fact of the the episode, 62 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: if I may take it please, this is where the 63 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: term cleanliness is next to godliness is coined. Pretty cool. 64 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: The New York Department of Health slogan in downtown New 65 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: York Josh at the turn of the century. Back then 66 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: was a disgusting, filthy place. And yet I love New York. 67 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: I love the history New York. We watched that, we 68 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: both watched the same Nova video on Typhoid Mary today 69 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: and they had photos of mountains of manure pushed to 70 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: the sidewalks and uh, sort of like if you've ever 71 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: been in New York on garbage day, imagine all those 72 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: garbage bags is poop, Yeah, but not pooping bags, just 73 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: mound poop. And they were dead animal carcasses. Did you 74 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: see that. It was like these boys playing in the 75 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: street with just a dead horse right in the middle 76 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: of their little stickball bimond guess he was on base 77 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: or something. And it was just a foul, disgusting, unclean, 78 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: unsanitary place, which, like you said, led to the formation 79 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: of the Department of Sanitation, Right, So the Department the 80 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: Department of Sanitation. UM was imbued with a lot of 81 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: clout from the get go. Yeah. And as you said that, 82 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: the Nova documentary on on Typhoid Mary, it's called like 83 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: the Most Dangerous Woman in America, but it's also on 84 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: YouTube under Typhoid Mary Nova. That's good. It was UM. 85 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: But they had a lot of cloud. They could forcibly 86 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: inoculate you with these new fangled inoculations. They could forcibly 87 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: remove you to a quarantine island, and New York had 88 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of them. Yeah, that was popular at the time. Yeah, 89 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: but basically your civil liberties could be entirely suspended without 90 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: any sort of due process of law. Um and you 91 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: if you were considered sick. And a lot of this 92 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: was based done this new understanding of science of germ 93 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: theory thanks to our buddy Louis past year bacteriology yep UM. 94 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: So the problem was science reporting hadn't been established yet. 95 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: So all of the people who were in charge understood 96 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: what was going on. They understood germ theory, they understood innoculations, 97 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: they understood force quarantine, but no one had explained it 98 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: to the public fully. Right, So it's a recipe for 99 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: disaster so there's this thing called typhus or typhoid. I'm sorry, 100 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: And apparently they were one and the same until the 101 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: nineteenth centuries. About this time, typhus and typhoid typhoid fever 102 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: were separated. But typhoid fever fever, which is the star 103 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: of this co star of this episode. Sure, Um, it's 104 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: particularly nasty, isn't it It is? Josh, we're talking not 105 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: just ordinary diarrhea, but doubled over cramping, painful diarrhea. I 106 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: think you'd call that violent diarrhea, violent diarrhea, high fee her, 107 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: red rashes, sleeplessness, death if you don't treat it. A 108 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: lot of people through history have been stricken with it, 109 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: including Mary Todd, Lincoln, Georgia O'Keeffe, Rabbi Shankar, Frank I 110 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: really uh, Frank McCourt, author, and Wilbur Wright actually of 111 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: the Wright Brothers fame died from typhoid fever. Wow, pretty 112 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: sad And that was I mean, that's a scant, uh 113 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: sampling from a long long list of famous people that 114 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: have Those are the people who count who had typhois. 115 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: I think Lincoln's son actually died as from it as well, 116 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: But I don't think Mary Todd Lincoln died from it, Yeah, 117 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: but you can know she died of um or something 118 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: like that is what they would have called hysterics, right, Okay. Um, So, 119 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: before we started to get a handle on typhoid fever, 120 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: it's by the way, it's a um it's caused by 121 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: the bacterium Salmonella TYPEE. It's a type of Salmonella UM. 122 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: And before we got a hand on it with antibiotics, 123 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: apparently twelve of people died from typhoid. So it's a 124 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: big public health problem. Yeah, New York especially there were 125 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: four thousand new cases per year and killed one in 126 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: ten people at the time or one in remember that 127 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: god that nationwide? Uh yeah, as I understand it before antibiotics. 128 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: So um, let's even just say tempercent. That's a big 129 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: public health problem. And because it's spread by the bacterium salmonella. 130 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: Did that come out weird? Because it did in my 131 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: head slightly a little bit of the lazy tongue there, 132 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: because because of because it's spread through salm manella or 133 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: because it's a results of salmonella, it's very very easily 134 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: spread from handling your own poop e g. Using the bathroom, 135 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: not washing your hands and then handling food, uncooked food specifically. Yeah, 136 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: it was normally considered to be like a disease of 137 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: the lower classes. Yeah, until nineteen oh six. Was it 138 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: chuck the summer of nineteen oh six in a in 139 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: a wealthy quarter of the United States on Long Island 140 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: called Oyster Bay, Billy Joels film, I believe it's neither 141 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: here nor there. That's one extra fact you just gave everybody. 142 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: That's true. Uh. Yeah, when it when it happened in uh, 143 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: Oyster Bay, it was a much bigger deal because it 144 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: was more closely associated with let's say, the Lower east 145 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: Side tenement housing, the filth of Lower Manhattan at the time. 146 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: They've cleaned all that up now, Um, it's expense. What 147 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: you get though, when you're in Oyster Bay is you 148 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: get wealthy families who can spend a little money, and 149 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: that's what you had. In the case of the Thompson family, 150 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: they were afraid that they would not be able to 151 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: rent out the house that they were living in because, uh, 152 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: people were getting sick in that house over and over 153 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: and over and they couldn't figure it out. They'd decided 154 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: to hire an investigator who turned out to be a 155 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: very prominent figure in this case name Dr George Soper, 156 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: a sanitation engineer and UH epidemiologists, one of the first 157 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: epidemiologists really looking to make his career well, he already had. 158 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: He had a reputation um of of you know, being 159 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: able to track any illness back to his source. So 160 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: this family, the Thompson family, is that the one who 161 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: owned the house or the one who's who got sick. 162 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: They owned the house, and I believe some family members 163 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: had also gotten sick. Okay, So but there's a family 164 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: that rented it originally. That's where the typhoid outbreak first happened. 165 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: So maybe maybe they were just a homeowner. The Thompson 166 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: family hired Soper I believe, yeah, and said, hey, we 167 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: can't rent this house anymore because people are dying from 168 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: typhoid concerned, right, Yeah, So Soaper gets on the case, 169 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: starts um finds the family where the typhoid outbreak occurred, 170 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: and arts interviewing the heck out of him, and he's stumped. 171 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: He can't figure it out, like, where did this thing 172 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: come from? There? These are clearly patient zeros right here, 173 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: like nobody else on the Yster Bay had it before 174 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: then they didn't bring it with them from the city. 175 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: There's somebody missing, there's something missing. And he finally says, 176 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: have I talked to everybody who was in this house 177 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: in the summer of nineteen o six and they said 178 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: you should talk to typhoid Mary. I don't know. I 179 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: didn't think of that, because what you know, what he 180 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: did was he interviewed kitchen staff, and it turns out 181 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: that there was a former employee that was no longer there, 182 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: Mary Mallon, And he said, wait a minute, you know, 183 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: maybe I should check this lady out. Turns out she 184 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: loved to serve this ice cream and fresh peaches, which 185 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: is uncooked, and that was her I guess her. She 186 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: was noted for that dessert, right. But even more incriminating 187 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: than the dessert is the idea that when he looked 188 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: into her history, she'd worked for eight families in ten years, 189 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: and six of those families said had typhoid outbreaks. So 190 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: he began to think that there was something special about 191 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: Mary Mallen and and that she was what's called a 192 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: healthy carrier, meaning um and and I'm just gonna paraphrase 193 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: this awesome way that nova doc put it right, when 194 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: you get typhoid fever, there's almost always a clear winner. 195 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: If the bacteria wins, you die, and if you if 196 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: you win, if your immune system wins, the bacteria dies. 197 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: But there's sometimes where there's a stalemate where your immune 198 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: system continues to function and you live and the bacteria 199 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: continues to live. In your sister to him, which means 200 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: you're healthy, but you're also extremely contagious. And that's what 201 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: Soaper came to believe Mary Mallen was. So she was 202 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: technically she actually had typhoid fever, but her immune system 203 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: was able to suppress all of it except the killing 204 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: of all the bacteria part right, So pretty cool, Soper cool, 205 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: but interesting because this is brand new. Yeah, and this 206 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: guy's on the cutting edge of this kind of thinking. Yeah, 207 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: And he knew like, potentially she could be the face 208 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: of bacteriology. The first bacteriology lab had just set up 209 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: in New York City and it was a burgeoning, uh 210 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: not industry but science. So he was like, man, this 211 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: is really gonna put me on the map if I 212 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: can prove this at least so he he didn't have 213 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: any training in science reporting either, though, did he he 214 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: didn't have training in people skills student either. He goes 215 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: to her and he's like, I finally found you. I 216 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: believe you're infected with typhoid. So I need stamples of 217 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: your stool, your urine and your blood. By the way, 218 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: my name is George, soaper good to me. And she's like, oh, no, 219 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: you're not. Yeah. So it's about this time that that 220 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: Mary Mallen. We should describe who she is, at least 221 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: go ahead. Mary Mallen was Irish. She or Irish came 222 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: over as a teenager by herself. She was born in 223 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: the poorest town county in Ireland, and Ireland at that time, 224 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: especially in the poorest county not a great place to be, 225 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: also dirty, also lots of death and dying in filth 226 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: and disease. And she was born in eighteen sixty nine, 227 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: so I think that's on the heels of the Potato famine, 228 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: if not still in the middle of it. So she 229 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: comes over as a teenager, lives with her aunt and 230 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: her uncle who passed away, and then is basically on 231 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: her own in New York, and by all accounts, as 232 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: a result of how she grew up and then being 233 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: on her in New York. She was very, very tough, 234 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: in fiery and independent and resourceful. Like had it been 235 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: anyone else, this might not have gone down like this. 236 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: They picked, literally eat not picked. But as it turns out, 237 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: it sounds like she was the toughest, most obstinate, stubborn, 238 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: fiery woman in New York City, right. And but she 239 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: was also good at what she did. She worked her 240 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: way up in the domestic servant classes to the pinnacle 241 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: of it. A cook in that era in the domestic 242 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: in domestic service, and sort of manager of the kitchen staff. Well, 243 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: not just that, almost the whole house, basically the all 244 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: of the servants. The cook was pretty much at the top, 245 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: maybe tied with the butler, depending on the house. But um, 246 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: she was a cook for all these these families, and 247 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: not just you know, families that could afford a cook, 248 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: but like very wealthy families. Um, she was good at 249 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: her at her job. But she took no guff from 250 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: any man. And when souper came and told her that 251 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: he wanted her feces, she chased him off with a 252 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: carving fork. Supposedly, that's how Super reported it. Yeah, and 253 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, we'll get into her specifics later and she 254 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: got a real bad rap. But at the time there was, 255 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: like you said, there was no understanding on the public's 256 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: behalf of this, this whole zero I'm sorry, healthy carrier 257 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: is not even proven yet. So I mean, what is 258 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: she supposed to do? Just say like, sure, I'll go 259 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: with you, stranger, take my poop and and put me 260 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: in a quarantine. Yeah, so she thought it like she 261 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: probably had every right to right most initial though, wouldn't 262 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: normally you know, brandish a fork a carving fork on somebody. 263 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: But again it's lost to history whether she really did 264 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: do that or not. A good story. So Super takes 265 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: off and he's not one to let his career just 266 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: kind of slip through his fingers, and he goes to 267 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: the New York Commissioner of Health, Herman Biggs. So Biggs 268 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: was he was the one. He was the first one, 269 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: and he was the one who was like, oh, by 270 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: the way, we can come into your house and forcibly 271 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: inoculate you and your children if we want, and we 272 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: will do that too, if we if we think that 273 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: it's in the interest of the public health. So Biggs 274 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: was very sympathetic to Soaper's description of the story. Of 275 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: this crazy Irish woman who was just patient zero and 276 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: more than one outbreak um and basically needed to be 277 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: dealt with. Yeah, so he ordered a one of his 278 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: case workers, a few a few cops in an ambulance 279 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: out to where Mary lived a tenement. Yeah. Josephine Baker 280 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: was the inspector and not the dancer. No, but she 281 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: apparently was pretty tough lady as well. She started her 282 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: own rainbow family. Oh really yeah. Oh, and you know, 283 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: we should also point out one of the reasons that 284 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: Mallon was so upset initially was that she got the 285 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: feeling they were essentially calling her dirty an unsantit here 286 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: because he explained to her like, oh, you go poop 287 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: and then you get boop in your hands and you 288 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: handle peaches that you feed people, and so she was 289 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: very uh, she was upset that they felt like they 290 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: were picking on her cleanliness. She just a dirty Irish 291 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: im mcgrinners exactly. They were you know, dirty drunks and 292 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: causing problems and that was just the stereotype at the 293 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: time and she wasn't like that, she said, right. So, um, 294 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: Soaper goes to Biggs Bigs orders some people out. They 295 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: used their power and grab Mary. Well, she hides out 296 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: in the house for a while though okay, like it 297 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: took three hours to find her. Well when they finally did, 298 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: apparently it took all either three or four cops to 299 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: drag her to the ambulance and then the the female 300 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: case workers sat on her for the whole ride to 301 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: this hospital, this quarantine hospital, where she was kept for 302 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: a while. And like you said, it's it just happened 303 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: to work out that the person who was who was 304 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: typhoid Mary was this very stubborn, obstinate, self assertive woman 305 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: from Ireland, and she came about at a time where 306 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: there was a big question about public health, like you know, 307 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: where do an individual, civil rights and public the greater 308 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: public good begin. That's still going on, it still is. 309 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: But she forced this, this conversation into the national spotlight 310 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: starting about now. Yea. So they keep her, they test her. 311 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: They they're like, you need to poop into this bag 312 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: right now, and she did um and they tested it 313 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: and they said, well, this thing's lousy with typhoid. They 314 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: called her stool a factory for typhoid. Yeah, And what 315 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: they did was they said, here's the deal, give up 316 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: cooking because that's how you're transmitting this and we'll let 317 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: you go. And so did they say that immediately, but 318 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: not necessarily from the document, I think they initially offered 319 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: her that deal that she refused, which was one reason 320 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: why she was you know, lambasted in the in the 321 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: public later on in newspapers. But again, at the time, 322 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: she had managed to climb up out of the uh, 323 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, poor conditions that she was living in an 324 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: Ireland and get a really good job and one that 325 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: she was good at and she didn't want to have 326 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: to learn something new and start over again. So at 327 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: the time, you know, like later on I can doll 328 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: out some of the blame on her, but early on 329 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: she still feels well, right, it's like, I'm not sick. 330 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: This doesn't make any sense. What does this healthy carrier thing? Yes, yeah, 331 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: she was not buying it at all, and she basically 332 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: came to believe that the Public Health Department had a 333 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: vendetta against her personally and felt quite persecuted. Um. So 334 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: when she said no, she wasn't going to stop cooking, 335 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: they said, okay, well we're gonna take you to a 336 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: nice little island called North Brother Island. It's not a 337 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: nice island. Seven. They took her there in quarantine her 338 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: their North Brother Island is a or it was a 339 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: tuberculosis hospital, quarantine quarantine hospital, i should say. And she 340 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: didn't have tuberculosis, and she wasn't even sick, she didn't 341 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: have any symptoms, and yet she was being kept here 342 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: against her will on North Brother Island, which you sent 343 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: a killer urban exploration photo spread that I want everybody 344 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: to go check out. It's creepy. It's on Gothamist dot 345 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: com and that's g O T H A M I 346 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: S T. And it's titled a Trip to the Abandoned 347 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: North Brother Island. It is so cool. Yeah, located there 348 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: was a riverside hospital and initially there was nothing there 349 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: and they said, hey, the idea of island quarantines was 350 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: pretty popular at the time, so we should build a 351 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: hospital there so we can treat these people. But um, 352 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: North Brother Island sort of gained a reputation over the 353 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: years because one it was I mean, it was much 354 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: more than tuberculosis. It was like later on it was 355 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: like hero and junkies were treated their syphilis like any 356 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: kind of nasty disease or addiction they would dump you 357 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: on at Riverside Hospital. It was in asylum. It basically was. 358 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: It was sort of like, uh, what's the DiCaprio, shutter island, 359 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: sendal island. Um. But they had a hard time staffing 360 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: it with real doctors for a while because actors understandably 361 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: didn't want to work there, so they had nurses only 362 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: for a time. Eventually there was a public campaign to 363 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: clean it up and to build better buildings and change 364 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: his rep which sort of worked, sort of didn't. But um, 365 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: in New York City at the time, especially on the 366 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: Lowery Side and where poor people lived, it had a 367 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: very bad reputation as you don't want to go there 368 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: because you go there and you don't come back. People 369 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: were afraid of it, right. So that's where they send 370 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: this Mary Malin off to so and when she gets there, um, 371 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: she starts trying to get out. She hired a escaping 372 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: right now, using legal channels. She um. She she hired 373 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: a lab, a private lab, and started sending them samples 374 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: of her stool and they were testing it and they 375 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: were not getting the same results. Her boyfriend would sneak 376 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: her poop to the lab and they weren't getting the 377 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: same results that the Public Health Department said that they 378 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: were getting UM. As far as her being a factory 379 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: for typhoid right, which could have been a false negative right. 380 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: It could have been because they said that you don't 381 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: always find it in the testing, and that's what they 382 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: said in the documentary. I believe so. But there was 383 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: a discrepancy and it was enough for her to get 384 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: her day in court New York Supreme Court. So she 385 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: makes her way. She's allowed to UM to leave the 386 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: island to go for her court date, and basically the 387 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: Public Health Department was like, look, she's a she's a 388 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: healthy carrier, and she's a public health threat. And Mary's like, 389 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: these people are holding me against my will. And the 390 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: New York Supreme Court said, you're a public health threat. 391 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: Go back to North Brother Island. Yeah. And around the 392 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: same time, it started getting newspaper coverage courtesy of William 393 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: Randolph Hurst, who may have financed her UM law. That's 394 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: crazy her legal expenses. Imagine it was. It was great 395 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: for the papers, So yeah, I could see him throw 396 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: a little money toward it, totally. But that's where she 397 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: was dubbed typhoid Mary, and that's where the public cinement 398 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: really swung because she was painted as someone who was 399 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: willingly giving people typhoid fever. Right, Well, no, she was. 400 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: She was called typhoid Mary because they were protecting her 401 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: um her identity as well. That didn't work too well. No, 402 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: so Mary Um goes back to North brother Island and 403 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: is there um for another Well, she was there for 404 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: three years total, I believe, and on in the third year, 405 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: New York City got a new health commissioner and he 406 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: was not about basically squashing people's civil rights letter, so 407 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: he not. He not only freed her, he got her 408 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: a job. Yeah, and a lot of people while she 409 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: was incarcerated, and it wasn't incarceration, I guess. Um there 410 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: were a lot of people that did cry out for 411 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: her release at times, um public officials even, but the 412 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: Department of Health basically it was such a unique case. 413 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: They wanted to experiment on her and said, now we're 414 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: gonna test do some tests on her and not let 415 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: her out. Well, they did do some tests on or 416 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: they they thought that perhaps the gall block her gallbladder 417 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 1: was the culprit. So they were like, we're gonna take 418 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: your gallbladder out, and she's like nobody's touching me. She's 419 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: afraid they're gonna kill her, but it could have to. 420 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: They did forcibly um medicate her. They tried some stuff out, 421 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: and she said that she wrote in a diary that 422 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: she if they keep this up for much longer, she'll 423 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: surely die because just such as the side effects were 424 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: so horrid. So it wasn't just like, hey, stay in 425 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: this cottage, there's a nice view of the water. It was. 426 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: It was rough for her in addition to the civil 427 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: liberties being squashed exactly, and so, as you pointed out, 428 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: the new Commission comes in letterly of public health and 429 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: a bit more sympathetic, like you said, he found her 430 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: a job and laundry, which apparently was the bottom of 431 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: the barrel for for a woman a woman's career aspirations 432 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: and in domestic servant like no money, like the lowest pay, 433 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: the worst work. And she was like this sucks. I 434 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: don't want to do this. I don't want to work 435 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: in the laundry. Did you know that Atlanta has one 436 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: of the taxi drivers in Atlanta? Um is a Ghanese king. Now, 437 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: why that's what I thought of when I um, when 438 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: I when I was reading about that when when she 439 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: got a job in the laundry, it's like she worked 440 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: her way past that. She's way past that. There's a 441 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: Ghanese king coming to America who operates a cab here 442 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. Sint none but ultra burma. That was a 443 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: good movie. I could quote it from heart, I think 444 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 1: in full let's start. Okay, bark like a dog. All right, 445 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: So back to Mary. Where are we here. She's just 446 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: been released or he offered her the job, right, yeah, 447 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: and she's out and she's yeah, but she's making contact 448 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: with the health department there, like we need to be 449 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: able to keep up with you and make sure we 450 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: know what you're doing and everything. And then they're they're like, 451 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: we know where she is, we know what she's doing. 452 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: We talked to her every day, and okay, we lost her. Yeah, 453 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: we don't know where she gets anymore. Yeah, it's pretty 454 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: cool at the time. He could disappear. And if you 455 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: don't leave afoarding address or it's like well yah, no 456 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: Google searching going on there, you could disappear into the 457 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: folds of Daniel day Lewis is overacting. So a few 458 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: years after this, Josh, after they had lost her Uh. 459 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: Dr Soapers brought in again to investigate another typhoid outbreak 460 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: at uh the upscale hospital, Sloane Hospital, and I think 461 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: it was a Baby Birthen hospital at the time, maternity hospital. 462 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: And uh what they discovered was Mary is cooking in 463 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: the kitchen at the hospital, yeah, under an assumed name. 464 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: Doctors and nurses were sick and I believe two of 465 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: them died. And they said, you know, um, you're in 466 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: big trouble this time. Yeah. But not only did they 467 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: discover it was Soaper himself was called into the case. 468 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: This is like Lama's a rob and he exactly, it 469 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: is very much like that. Um. And he comes to 470 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: the hospital and he recognizes Mary by sight as one 471 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: of the cooking Steffens, Like you were kidding me. She's 472 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: whipping up her ice cream and beaches and just stops 473 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: like a mid stroke, like um, her hands awkward. So um. 474 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: This time she goes willingly. She knows that that it's 475 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: it's over, it's done. She still doesn't believe that she 476 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: is the um, this a carrier or the problem, but 477 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: she knows that they think she is and that she's 478 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: broken some sort of horrendous loss. It was kind of 479 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: sad at that point. From the way uh it was 480 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: described in the documentary, she was just sort of like, 481 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean, all the fight of this fiery woman was gone, 482 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: and she's just like, I just can't fight this anymore. 483 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: Take me. And part of it, also, I imagine it 484 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: was public opinion turned against her. Like you said, the 485 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: first time she was incarcerated at UM North Brother Island, 486 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot of public outcry. This time there's a 487 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: lot of public outcry. But it was against her because 488 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: she had willfully and knowingly gone back into cooking UM 489 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: and had gotten more people sick. Yeah, and I think 490 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: fifty something cases were attributed to her in three deaths. Yeah, 491 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: I think fifty two was what I read. UM. And 492 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, we gotta say, like, I'm defending her in 493 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, but she They gave her a 494 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: few pretty good deals along the way that she did 495 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: not take, which was a to give up cooking be UM. 496 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: I think at one point they said, why don't you 497 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: just move to Connecticut with your sister, And she was like, 498 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't have a sister, and they're like, sure you do, Jane, 499 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: She's like, wait, you haven't a stroke exactly so she 500 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: didn't take him up on that offer, and um Sober 501 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: promised her of the profits of a book that he 502 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: would write about her and about the situation, and she 503 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: was like, no, no, no, it wasn't that weird. Anthony 504 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: Bourdain is one of the experts in that Nova documentary 505 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: A little odd. Yeah, I guess he knows his typhoid Mary. 506 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: He lives on Oyster Bay. I guess with Billy Joel. 507 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: So the legacy um of typhoid Mary is this great 508 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: debate over how much civil liberty, how many how many 509 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: civil rights does a person get to keep when they 510 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: pose some sort of public health threat? And I guess 511 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: the answer to that is contagion. Yes, have you seen it? 512 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: I have not. You did the other night, right, it 513 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: was good? Frightening? No, it was definitely like, I don't 514 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: My back was tense the whole time. It wasn't frightening, 515 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: but it was kid. That was a really good editorial 516 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: piece too that I read I sent you, um We're 517 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: basically this could have gone down in so many different ways. 518 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: It was sort of like the perfect storm of headstrong woman, uh, 519 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: healthy guy that didn't have a lot of people skills. 520 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: They said, if that or his opinion was, if that 521 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: initial meeting had have gone down differently, the whole history 522 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: might be rewritten. But it went down as them butting 523 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: heads and just got worse from there. Pretty interesting. So 524 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: typhoid Mary was she a bad person? Josh, I can't. 525 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: I reserved judgment on historical figures. Okay, I don't. I 526 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: don't know enough about him. Yeah, I think you can 527 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: only judge your contemporaries. Really, all right, what about me? 528 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: I reserved judgment on on podcasters? Yeah. So, Um, if 529 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: you want to know more about type woid Mary, you 530 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: can watch Nova's excellent documentary The Most Dangerous Woman in America. UM. 531 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: If you want to know the origin of the word quarantine, 532 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: you should go back and listen to our Black Death episode. 533 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: But if you haven't heard it before and you've read, 534 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: don't bother emailing in. I know already, I know, I know, 535 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You can also look up the how stuff 536 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: Works article who was typhoid Mary? T Y P H 537 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: O I D space M A R Y question mark? 538 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: You want to type that into the search bar at 539 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com And that means it's time 540 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: for a listener mail. They should do a good movie 541 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: about that. I can't believe they haven't. Yeah, this is 542 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: like great. At the very least, there has to be 543 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: a book on Soper, Like this is the kind of 544 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: thing that the public is eating up right now, you know, 545 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: thanks to this um Stars, thanks to this economic collapse. 546 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: You know, the Stars Guard Starstard. Did you ever see 547 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: that live Skit was during the Stars outbreak and uh 548 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: so ours Guard. The actor what's his name, Peter, He 549 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: was on their pitching. It was like a little informercial 550 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: and he's pitching the Stars Guard Stars Gard. Awesome. Alrighty Josh, 551 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this, uh Moon smack down the Nicest Moon. 552 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: The nicest Moon's back down. We got all right because 553 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: we got a lot of them and this guy was 554 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: actually really really it's over behind about it. Guys. Love 555 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: the podcast. I listened as I ride my bike to 556 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: and from work past the Golden Gate Bridge in San 557 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: Francisco on my way to the Moon. Learning interesting facts 558 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: makes my day a little better. However, I had to 559 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: send a note about a couple of mistakes in the 560 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: Moon podcasts. You got the current theories about the formation 561 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,239 Speaker 1: of the moon and how it affects Earth's precession right 562 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: as far as I know. And those are really the 563 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: hardest things to understand. Well done, Yeah, but you did 564 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: perpetuate a few minutes. Number one, the Moon doesn't rotate 565 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: and is dragged along by the Earth. Well sort of. 566 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: The Moon is held in place by the Earth's gravity, 567 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: but it does rotate. The reason it doesn't appear to rotate, 568 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: which is what we were trying to say, uh, is 569 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: because its period of rotation is exactly the same as 570 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: its period of revolution around the Earth, about twenty nine days. 571 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: It's tidally locked, which brings me two point Number two. 572 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: The moon has a quote dark side that is never illuminated. 573 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: Not true. I don't remember seeing that. Did we say that? 574 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: We must have because everyone said that we did. Maybe 575 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: we didn't save this. Okay, we've let people believe that 576 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: we don't know it, all right. The moon has one 577 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: face we never see from Earth but is not permanently 578 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: in darkness. That's known as the far side of the moon. 579 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: So it's Gary Larson, not Darth Vader. Huh uh. Number three, 580 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: we have tides because the moon quote pulls up on 581 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: the water on the Earth and pulls up on the 582 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: Earth underneath as well. Definitely not true. While the Moon's 583 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: gravity does pull up the Earth and its water, the 584 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 1: effect is minuscule compared to the Earth's own gravity. It's 585 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: the horizontal differential in the Moon's gravity across the Earth 586 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: that causes the water to slide towards and away the 587 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: direction of the Moon. So the water slide sideways, not up. Wow, 588 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. And that is from Chris b and 589 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 1: he he was very cool about it. Um. And he says, ps, 590 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm a little worried about going back and listening to 591 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: the Sun podcast because the Sun is way more complicated 592 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: than the Moon than Chris. Don't do it. Don't do it, 593 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: just skip it. Brother. Yeah, go listen to Cannonball Run. Yeah, 594 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: that's a good one, no mistakes that. It's a great, 595 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: great one. Or Twinkies that was pretty good too. Yeah, muppets, Yeah, 596 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: anything but the Sun, anything but that. Um. I guess 597 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: if you have a correction, we want to hear it. Um. 598 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: We we have. We've been reading him again now lately. 599 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 1: I think that's a good chuck. I forgot all about him, 600 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: I forgot about being wrong. Well, we were right for 601 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: a good stretch. Well we weren't doing ones like on 602 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: the moon or whatever. Yeah, these tough ones are hard. 603 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 1: Yes they are. Yes. If you have a correction, you 604 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: can tweet it to us at s Y s K podcast. 605 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: You can um see us on Facebook at Facebook dot com, 606 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: slash suff you should know, and you can send us 607 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: a plain old fashion email at Stuff podcast at how 608 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands 609 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com.