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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Some things in life

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Speaker 1: we just accept as part of the scenery. We go

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Speaker 1: about our everyday lives. We don't expect to see anything

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Speaker 1: that necessarily breaks with the norm. I think ditches are

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Speaker 1: that way. How many of us actually sit around and

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Speaker 1: think about a ditch? No, I guess at some point

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Speaker 1: in time we've considered it. What their purpose is, Why

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Speaker 1: is it that they run alongside of roads? What do

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Speaker 1: they accomplish by being there? It seems as though that

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Speaker 1: some people put a lot of work into it, you know,

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Speaker 1: they have to lay culverts down and adjust the flow

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Speaker 1: in them, try to keep them clear, and then other

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Speaker 1: people just kind of abandon them. They'll be overgrown. But ditches,

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Speaker 1: I would argue, they cover our nation. They're everywhere, and

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Speaker 1: we never give them a second thought. But just for

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Speaker 1: a moment, can you imagine going out with your granddaddy

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Speaker 1: in the cold. Maybe you've waited on this day, and

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Speaker 1: y'all are going hunting, and during the course of this hunt,

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Speaker 1: you happen to look down into a ditch that maybe

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Speaker 1: you have never paid any attention to before, and they're

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Speaker 1: lying in the ditch. A sixty year old woman whose

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Speaker 1: name is Eileen. Her body is frozen like the rest

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Speaker 1: of the surrounding area. And oh, by the way, her

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Speaker 1: face is missing. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

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Speaker 1: body bags. We've talked about second takes here, several several

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Speaker 1: episodes of body bags, you know, over this period of

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Speaker 1: time that that we've been uh, you know, covering death

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Speaker 1: investigation Dave and uh, this is one of those moments

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Speaker 1: where you take a second take, a second look, a

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Speaker 1: second take. It's hard. It's hard to really kind of

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Speaker 1: understand what a civilian might think. What you know, I

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Speaker 1: guess you'd look down, and I think that the human

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to accept horror. Most of the time. I

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Speaker 1: think your default position is going to be mannequin. It's

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Speaker 1: not going to be sixty year old woman with her

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Speaker 1: face missing.

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Speaker 2: No, if I saw a body in a ditch, I

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Speaker 2: would think I would tell my kid back in the day,

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Speaker 2: that's not real. It's a dummy, and I get ahead

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Speaker 2: of it and call nine one one. There's going to

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Speaker 2: be information told today that you might have never heard before.

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Speaker 2: I've got some questions about the process that medical examiners

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Speaker 2: go through to determine a cause of death and manner

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Speaker 2: of death, things like that. But first things first. Sam

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Speaker 2: Bramer is sixty one. His girlfriend on and off again

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Speaker 2: is Eileen Gowan and she is sixty and they have

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Speaker 2: a relationship that when they're both sober, they get along

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Speaker 2: and have it and they're both fun to be around.

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Speaker 2: Apparently when they're drinking, not so much. It's a Doctor

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Speaker 2: Jekyl and mister Hyde thing going on as a couple.

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Speaker 2: When they drink, they fight.

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Speaker 1: I got to insert this too, and I know I've

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Speaker 1: said it before. I have worked more cases over the

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Speaker 1: course of my career that alcohol was a component in

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Speaker 1: some of the most violent cases I've ever worked. It

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Speaker 1: even outpaces and I'm not talking about drug deals, but

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Speaker 1: it outpaces other substances because it's everywhere. It is a drug.

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Speaker 1: Alcohol is a drug, and so many people, unfortunately they're

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Speaker 1: enslaved to it many times, and when you get firewater

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Speaker 1: on board, it's a very dangerous recipe and it ends

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Speaker 1: many times tragically, and it certainly did in this case.

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Speaker 2: In this case, today, Sam Bremer and Eileen Gowen again

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Speaker 2: on and off again relationship because of the alcohol, and

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Speaker 2: when Eileen was reported missing by her daughter on February fifteenth.

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Speaker 2: On the twenty sixth, Eileen Gowen's body without a face

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Speaker 2: is found in a ditch and there were two things,

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Speaker 2: one frozen all the way and decomposition. These are two

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Speaker 2: things that are mentioned as why the medical examiner could

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Speaker 2: not determine a cause of death. I want you to

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Speaker 2: be able to tell me how it's possible to have

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Speaker 2: somebody found in a ditch in twenty twenty three, and

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Speaker 2: you come back with, I don't know how the person

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Speaker 2: was killed and died. I don't see how that's even possible.

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Speaker 2: But I watch way too much TV.

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Speaker 1: People throw around the word nuanced a lot. Nowadays. It

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Speaker 1: seems like everything's nuanced. This is the definition of nuance, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know when you think about it and trying to

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Speaker 1: put the science with what your eyes are telling you

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Speaker 1: as an investigator near there, and certainly what your eyes

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Speaker 1: are telling you back at the Morgue. And I think

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Speaker 1: that it's important that we explore this today because this

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Speaker 1: case in and of itself, there's a lot of mystery

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Speaker 1: that surrounds it, because this woman to wind up in

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Speaker 1: this state, and I mean her physical state at the

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Speaker 1: time that she was discovered. You know, that there has

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Speaker 1: to be a history here, and particularly when you consider

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Speaker 1: that she appears to be just discarded. And that's another thing.

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Speaker 1: You know that this idea of the ditch, isn't it something?

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Speaker 1: How you'll drive down the road and it really catches

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Speaker 1: the eye when you see that people have kind of

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Speaker 1: discarded household garbage off in a ditch. You know, they

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Speaker 1: either maybe it blew out of the back of their

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Speaker 1: vehicle or maybe they just said, wait, no one's looking,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to grab the bag. I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: throw it out there, instead of going to a dumpster

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Speaker 1: or waiting, you know, for trash service to come by.

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Speaker 1: And they just discarded because it has theave no value

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Speaker 1: to them.

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Speaker 2: Eileen Gowen at sixty years old. She had value to

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Speaker 2: her daughter. Yes, reported her missing. Yeah, not her on again,

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Speaker 2: off again boyfriend. He didn't report her missing. They had

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Speaker 2: been living together and there was a dispute over a safe. Right,

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Speaker 2: Eileen Gwen has a safe and it has fifteen hundred

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Speaker 2: dollars in it. Sam Brammer and Eileen galling into a

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Speaker 2: fight and Sam Brammer kicks her out of the apartment.

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Speaker 2: Apparently it was in his name, so he kicks her

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Speaker 2: out of the apartment, but he holds the safe hostage

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Speaker 2: and says, I'll give it back to you when you

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Speaker 2: give me the three hundred dollars. She leaves the apartment

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Speaker 2: and goes missing. Sam Cowan doesn't report her missing to me. Joe,

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Speaker 2: if the person you've been sharing your life with, no

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Speaker 2: matter how mad you are, if you have an ongoing

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Speaker 2: situation of I have a safe, she needs this because

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Speaker 2: it has her money in it, you would still be

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Speaker 2: talking to one another. And if all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: that stopped, the communication stopped and you don't find that person,

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Speaker 2: you would still go to the police. If you didn't

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Speaker 2: kill her, you would go and say, hey, my ex

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Speaker 2: girlfriend is missing. I can't find her anywhere. But he doesn't.

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Speaker 2: It's Eileen Gowen's daughter that actually reports her missing on

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Speaker 2: February fifteenth. Eleven days later, on the February twenty sixth,

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Speaker 2: her body is found. She is dead in a ditch

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Speaker 2: and her face is missing. When you find the body

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Speaker 2: in this condition, what does it tell you.

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Speaker 1: Tell me is that there is obvious disregard for the remains.

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Speaker 1: Now that disregard can take the form of a fellow

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Speaker 1: human being that may have had at one point in

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Speaker 1: time been able to care for the person and they

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Speaker 1: no longer cared for them. Or it could be a

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Speaker 1: fellow human being that has bad intentions relative to an

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Speaker 1: individual and kind of discards the body. Or it can

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Speaker 1: be at the hands of say, you know, if we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the face missing and the state of decomposition,

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Speaker 1: we can begin to think about animal activity. What could

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Speaker 1: actually have happened here that would have brought Eileen's body

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Speaker 1: to this state, And it's not just the state of

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Speaker 1: where it was located, but the state of decomposition and

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Speaker 1: host mortem trauma that apparently, you know, this turns out

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Speaker 1: to be. So you've got these elements that you're checking

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Speaker 1: down the list, and to go back just for a second,

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Speaker 1: as an investigator, if I determine who this individual is,

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Speaker 1: and we know that within her circle, she has a

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Speaker 1: daughter who checks in with her regularly, who cares about

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Speaker 1: her mama, and then we have Brammer, who she's I mean,

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Speaker 1: let's face that she's been domiciled with for some time

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Speaker 1: on again, off again. Why hasn't someone taken the time

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Speaker 1: to report her particularly you know, look, if you have

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Speaker 1: adult children, your adult children are not going to know

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Speaker 1: where you are at all points in time along the continuum,

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Speaker 1: your lover, your housemate, however you want to frame it

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Speaker 1: common law, I don't know. They do have an aware

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Speaker 1: and there is an expectation of accountability. So you know

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Speaker 1: you'd mentioned that there was alcohol involved. Well, was this

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Speaker 1: guy blackout drunk and he just forgot? Did he develop

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Speaker 1: amnesia or did he say, look, I've had enough of her.

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Speaker 1: I am washing my hands. She went on her way

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Speaker 1: and I don't care what happens to her. Or again,

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Speaker 1: is it something more sinister? And are you dealing with

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Speaker 1: an individual that perhaps that just perhaps treats people within

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Speaker 1: their circle, just like those individuals that we mentioned just

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Speaker 1: a little while ago, and how they treat household debris.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing when you're looking for somebody that's missing,

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Speaker 1: trying to track them down if they live in a

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Speaker 1: large metropolitan area that they That's not the case here today.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Council Block. It's agriculture, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: people the kind of salt of the earth type folks

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Speaker 1: that you know that have lived there for generations and generations.

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Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a place, say, for instance, if you

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Speaker 1: were running away that you would go and disappear, you're

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Speaker 1: going to stand out. And so conversely, if you look

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Speaker 1: at this relative to an individual that resides there and

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Speaker 1: they go missing, you have to think, well, where in

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Speaker 1: the world, in this little slice of the world, could

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Speaker 1: could she be? Where is Eileen? And you know, And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until that fateful morning when this young man

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Speaker 1: you know, was with his grandpa and he looks down

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Speaker 1: the ditch and he finds her decomposing in the ditch

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Speaker 1: and her face is.

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Speaker 2: Missing in council. Plus, Iowa is very cold. I was

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Speaker 2: very and we're talking about the middle of February here

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Speaker 2: when she goes missing. But the part that hit me, Joe,

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Speaker 2: is that they said there was a problem with determining

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Speaker 2: cause of death because of decomposition and the fact that

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Speaker 2: she was frozen. I thought cold would prevent decomposition. First

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Speaker 2: of all, is that not the case.

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Speaker 1: It does and decomposition contrary to what people think. And

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Speaker 1: we had, like the last facility I worked at, we

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Speaker 1: had the cool room, which is where we kept bodies,

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Speaker 1: and then we had a freezer, two different things. The

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Speaker 1: cool room would slow decomposition. You don't want to get

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Speaker 1: a body into a state where they are frozen through

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Speaker 1: and through. You know, think is more bit as this

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Speaker 1: is think Thanksgiving turkey and if you buy a turkey

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Speaker 1: before you can do anything with it, if you don't

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Speaker 1: buy it fresh, you gotta let it thaw. When you

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Speaker 1: begin to think about Aileen's case, when they the pathologist

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Speaker 1: had gone on to mention, you know, when she's referring

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Speaker 1: to the autopsy that the body. Now get this, the

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Speaker 1: body was still frozen when they started the autopsy. Decomposition

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Speaker 1: is it's not necessarily ceased, it's it's kind of the

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Speaker 1: progression is retarded in a sense that it slows it

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Speaker 1: down to the point where at a cellular level, those

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Speaker 1: elements that are involved in the process of autolsis where

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Speaker 1: the body is actually kind of considering itself autosis auto

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Speaker 1: where the body is actually kind of breaking itself down

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Speaker 1: at a cellular level that it really stems it to

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Speaker 1: the point where it knocks that down that process. The

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Speaker 1: body is still decomposing, but it has slowed the process

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Speaker 1: down greatly, even in these frozen circumstances. In Eileen's case,

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Speaker 1: one of the things we look at relative to decomposition,

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Speaker 1: we go back and look at the weather, particularly with

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Speaker 1: outdoor cases. And I've talked with people at the weather

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Speaker 1: surface for a number of reasons, everything from dam releases

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Speaker 1: to waterfall to temperature changes. And prior to the last

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Speaker 1: time she was seen, the weather had been not freezing.

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Speaker 1: It had been above freezing. So when she would have

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Speaker 1: been placed in that ditch, her body would have begun

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Speaker 1: to decompose at that point in time. Now, as cold

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Speaker 1: weather sets in, as the temperatures begin to creep downward,

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Speaker 1: particularly at night. Can you imagine how cold it is

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Speaker 1: in Council Bluff at midnight or two o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 2: One thing I did look up is that when she

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Speaker 2: went missing around the field fifteenth, it was not that

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Speaker 2: cold during the day. They had a little warm spell,

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Speaker 2: but it got cold like that night and stayed cold.

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Speaker 1: You can have bodies that begin to decompose and then

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Speaker 1: temperature drops okay, and it slows down or it goes

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Speaker 1: into almost stasis, and then all of a sudden the

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Speaker 1: next day, temperture jumps back up where it's above freezing

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, and the process will begin

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Speaker 1: or continue at that point. And so you've got these

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Speaker 1: multiple stop starts. Now, if you have a body where

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Speaker 1: an individual has died and they've been laying in a ditch,

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Speaker 1: they begin to decompose, because remember, decomposition begins at a

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Speaker 1: molecular level, cellular level actually, and as that begins, you'll

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Speaker 1: have the body begin to break down and you can

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Speaker 1: get to that point. Is Actually it's a very interesting

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Speaker 1: time marker for us because if you get to a

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Speaker 1: body that has broken down to a specific point in time,

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Speaker 1: and you can pinpoint when the temperature dropped, you know,

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Speaker 1: the body begins to freeze, and so it stops at

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Speaker 1: that point. And remember what I said. The me even

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Speaker 1: said that her body was still frozen when they brought

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Speaker 1: Eyelands remains to the Iowa State Medical Examiner's office. They

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Speaker 1: were actually doing our autopsy at that point in time.

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Speaker 1: So you've got literally the scientific marker in time when

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Speaker 1: you can look at the degree of decomposition. You can

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Speaker 1: go back and kind of look at the circumstantial evidence

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Speaker 1: of her body being transported when she was last seen,

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Speaker 1: and you can kind of peg that back in time

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Speaker 1: and say, oh, okay, we know that the temperatures froze,

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Speaker 1: we went into a freezing state at this moment in time,

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Speaker 1: and the body since that point in time has been

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Speaker 1: in this environment that's very, very cold and austere. But

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Speaker 1: prior to that, she was in an environment that would

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Speaker 1: promote decomposition, and for some reason it stopped. And so

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Speaker 1: that's a marker for us in time, and it's a

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Speaker 1: real interesting tool that you know, of course, us down

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Speaker 1: here in the South, we don't get to these kinds

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Speaker 1: of temperatures. I've got a lot of colleagues up north.

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Speaker 1: I've got a couple of really good friends that work

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Speaker 1: up in the northern part of Minnesota, and they've talked

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Speaker 1: about finding bodies of individuals that were homicide victims just

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Speaker 1: prior to and it seems like it used to be

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Speaker 1: just prior to Halloween up there where they would get

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Speaker 1: their first hard freeze and some years it would freeze

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Speaker 1: at Halloween and it wouldn't fall out until like April

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: It's that harsh, and so you you.

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Speaker 1: Have that moment, Tom. But here's another curious thing that

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Speaker 1: that's fascinating to me about because to me, this is

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Speaker 1: what we refer to as a body dump. This is

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Speaker 1: not like and you can learn a lot about a

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Speaker 1: perpetrator's relationship to the body thinking about the disposition of

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Speaker 1: the remains at the hands of somebody that would have

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Speaker 1: done this to her. She's in a ditch, and as

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Speaker 1: I had mentioned earlier, ditches run alongside roadways, so you

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Speaker 1: don't have an individual that is actually taking Aileen's remains,

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Speaker 1: dragging them through the ditch into an open field, maybe

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Speaker 1: digging a hole and burying them. What you're dealing with

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Speaker 1: here is someone that probably at a moment's notice, was

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Speaker 1: looking around, didn't see anybody looking, stops the vehicle, grabs

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Speaker 1: Aileen and pulls her remains into the ditch. I've actually

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Speaker 1: had cases where you when you roll up on the

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Speaker 1: scene and folks that are in the sound of my

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Speaker 1: voice just kind of imagine this, kind of close your

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Speaker 1: eyes and think about the You've got bodies many times

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Speaker 1: that have been dumped out of vehicles, and the bodies

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Speaker 1: will be contorted and twisted in these odd, odd manners.

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Speaker 1: The reason you get that is that the individual many

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Speaker 1: times doesn't really want to touch the body any further.

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Speaker 1: If they do touch it, they don't take a firm

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Speaker 1: grip on it, or if they're angry, they just grab

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Speaker 1: the body again like a bag of trash and just

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Speaker 1: kind of as best they can do, fling it and

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Speaker 1: get clear, get that body clear of the vehicle, shut

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Speaker 1: the door, and as quickly as they possibly can get

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Speaker 1: out of the vehicle. So you can actually if you

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Speaker 1: take your time and look at a body at the scene,

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Speaker 1: and let's say you've got an individual that is say

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Speaker 1: laying so that they're I don't know, their head is

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Speaker 1: turned to the left, maybe they're twisted at the hips.

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Speaker 1: You'll see like their right arm kind of thrown over

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Speaker 1: their shoulder, their hand is thrown over their left shoulder.

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Speaker 1: That's an idea of being rolled, and that gives you

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Speaker 1: an idea of the dynamics of how the body was treated,

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Speaker 1: you know, once they got them out of the vehicle.

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Speaker 1: And that's a key point here when you begin to

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Speaker 1: think about that. You know, we think about tire tracks,

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Speaker 1: we would think about blood droplets perhaps that might be

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Speaker 1: emanating from a vehicle and suddenly they begin at the

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Speaker 1: edge of the road and they kind of follow the

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Speaker 1: body as it's rolling out. If there was any trauma

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Speaker 1: to the body, sometimes you can have you know what

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Speaker 1: everybody thinks about they always hear this term drag marks.

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Speaker 1: I know, our friend Nancy Nancy Grace talks about drag marks,

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Speaker 1: you know, many many times, and those are real things.

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Speaker 1: You can see drag marks in the dirt. You can

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Speaker 1: also see blood leaving a trail behind, almost like a

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Speaker 1: dirty old mop, you know, and that's coming from the body.

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Speaker 1: That's evidence of movement. And that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: we think about relative to dynamics of bodies.

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Speaker 2: An investigators out there find a body, do they call

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Speaker 2: you right away and say, hey, we don't know what's

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Speaker 2: going on here. Can you get out here and take

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Speaker 2: a look. Or did they start drawing diagrams, taking pictures

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Speaker 2: and then pick up the body and go what's that process?

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Speaker 2: Because I would the reason I ask in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: where you have a body of a person who's been

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Speaker 2: missing for eleven days, I have to wonder what help

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Speaker 2: it would be to get your opinion seeing where she's laying,

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Speaker 2: where her body in the exact position her body is found,

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Speaker 2: that that might be helpful for the investigation, not just

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Speaker 2: determining cause of death, but actually who did it and why.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting question, particularly as it applies to Iowa.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. Iowa has a state Medical

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Speaker 1: Examiner's office they don't have corners up there, and they've

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Speaker 1: got a very good State Medical Examiner's office. It's existed

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Speaker 1: for some time. It would be for somebody like myself

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Speaker 1: and my former practice. Would there have been a medical

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Speaker 1: legal death investigator that would have been able to roll

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Speaker 1: out to the scene. What they would have had when

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Speaker 1: first responding officers showed up, they would have had obvious

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Speaker 1: access to their department's CID, which is a criminal investigation division.

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Speaker 1: Now in this department, you don't know if they have

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Speaker 1: many times in smaller departments, they won't have pure homicide detectives.

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Speaker 1: They will have what they refer to I've always loved

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Speaker 1: this term. They will have detectives that are called crimes

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Speaker 1: against persons detectives, and they're kind of a one stop

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Speaker 1: shop and they're spread then, trust me, particularly if the

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Speaker 1: tempo picks up relative to crimes, but they'll cover things

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Speaker 1: like rapes, assaults, homicides, those sorts of things, and they're

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Speaker 1: kind of, you know, just think about anything that harms anybody,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be on it. So at minimum, they

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Speaker 1: would have had a CID representative out there that would

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Speaker 1: have taken the lead in this particular case. If the

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Speaker 1: Emmy investigator is available, they will come out and it's

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Speaker 1: always best, It's always best if we can put our

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Speaker 1: eyes on the body at the scene, because remember, the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner of the pathologist in most cases is not

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Speaker 1: going to come to the scene. I know I say

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Speaker 1: this a lot, but it needs to be emphasized because

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Speaker 1: there's such there's so much crap that has been pushed

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Speaker 1: on the American public from an entertainment standpoint where they

365
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Speaker 1: just assume that a forensic pathologist is going to show

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Speaker 1: up at the scene, And isn't it interesting, Hollywood? The

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologists that they choose always looks like they step

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Speaker 1: right of a fashion magazine. And most forensic pathologists that

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Speaker 1: I've had contact with, they've never even picked up a

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Speaker 1: copy of Vote, So you're not going to have that.

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Speaker 1: But those times when a forensic pathologist shows up are

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Speaker 1: going to be the exception and not the norm. But

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Speaker 1: to tell you this, there's a lot to be said

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Speaker 1: for an individual that can put eyes on the scene

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Speaker 1: and translate that information to the friends of pathologist to

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Speaker 1: back at the morgue to help them understand, particularly in

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Speaker 1: a case like Aileen where you've got her dumped in

378
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Speaker 1: a ditch, she's got trauma and oh, by the way,

379
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Speaker 1: her face is missing. Making sense of the senseless. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I find myself in that position, and I know that

381
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Speaker 1: people back at the Morgue many times look at this

382
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Speaker 1: and look at these cases that come through the door,

383
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Speaker 1: and they think, how in the world do I make

384
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Speaker 1: heads or tails of this? Because many times things are

385
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Speaker 1: taken out of context. They don't have the full story

386
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: when a body arrives. But you know Aileen Gallan Dave,

387
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Speaker 1: she did have story, and certainly Brammer her boyfriend, for

388
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Speaker 1: lack of a better.

389
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Speaker 2: Term, sometime boyfriend on a yeah.

390
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I hate to use even connect the term friend

391
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Speaker 1: with them. There's a lot to be learned about his

392
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Speaker 1: activities and kind of how this plays in to the

393
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Speaker 1: story as we move along here.

394
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Speaker 2: Sam Bramer, his story continues to change. When you have

395
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Speaker 2: somebody that goes missing, the first person you're going to

396
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: talk to is the relationship person right closest to the

397
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: victim and get his or her story, find out what's happening.

398
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Speaker 2: And so they went to Sam Bramer. Police talk to

399
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Speaker 2: him four times. Do you give you an idea? They

400
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 2: already knew because there are cameras. They're so inexpensive. Now

401
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: people have the doorbell cameras. It's kind of like you

402
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: don't have one? Do you have a cell phone?

403
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: You know?

404
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: When you say that out loud, it's like, no, I don't.

405
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: Everybody seems to have a surveillance camera of some sort.

406
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: And because of that, no matter what story Sam Bramer tells,

407
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: they can go to the tape. Let's find out because Sam,

408
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: what they actually know from video from surveillance camera footage.

409
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Speaker 2: The surveillance video from city cameras private businesses show Brammer

410
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: leaving the city for about an hour on February thirteenth. Now,

411
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: I want to back up. The last time Brammer said

412
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Speaker 2: he saw her was February twelfth. Her daughter reported her

413
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: missing February fifteenth. So here we're on February thirteenth, and

414
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 2: we know Brammer is leaving town for about an hour

415
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: between nine twenty eight and ten twenty eight am. According

416
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Speaker 2: to the affidavit filed by law enforcement, phone records indicated

417
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Speaker 2: that he and Gowan were in the area of the

418
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 2: city of Carter Lake at that time. They both have

419
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: cell phones put them right there together. So from eight

420
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: thirty that morning till nine thirty. That morning, eight thirty

421
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: to nine twenty eight, Gowan is walking acting like a

422
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: normal person in all respects uninjured. She's able to sit

423
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 2: upright in the passenger side of Brammer's truck while they're

424
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: traveling around town. They observe all this with their own eyes,

425
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: police do an hour later, when Sam Bramer's truck returns,

426
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: it appears something is different in the way Gowan is

427
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: now sitting while in the vehicle. In the front seat

428
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: of this truck, they say she is sitting or positioned

429
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: in his truck at multiple locations with different camera angles

430
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: in different views, it appears to police that Gowan is

431
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 2: now awkwardly slumped in the passenger seat. This is in

432
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: a one hour time difference nine twenty eight to ten

433
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: twenty eight. As the vehicle passes the frank and Canesville

434
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: intersection at ten fifty six am, it appears now that

435
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: she hasn't changed or moved at all from the awkward

436
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: position they've seen her in previously. So we've got several

437
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: minutes of an awkward position that doesn't change. When Brammer

438
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: pulls into the Sherwood Drive address at eleven oh six

439
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,239
Speaker 2: Yowen is no longer visible in the truck. So no

440
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: matter how rural the community you live in, there's video

441
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: evidence following you around that shocked me.

442
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: That it is shocking and we shouldn't be surprised in

443
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: a stay and age. But let me let me ask

444
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: you something real quick, Dave. When you hear the term

445
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: dead weight, what what? What does that elicit elicit from you?

446
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: As what's your first When you hear dead weight?

447
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: There is no life and it's heavy. If you've ever

448
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: picked up something like dead weight like carpet, used carpet

449
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: is exact rolled up carpet, it's horrible. Yeah, you do

450
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: it by your ear like I can live. This doesn't

451
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: matter what it weighs. It's dead weight. It is not

452
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: helping you in any way.

453
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And and the thing about it when you if

454
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: you for anybody that's out there that's ever been picked

455
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: up by somebody by surprise or maybe you're wanting to

456
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: be picked up and swept off your feet and being held,

457
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: there's the individual that is being held that's being picked

458
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: up is helping you. You don't. People don't realize that,

459
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: but they are. Because we have way of adjusting our body.

460
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: And grabbing, putting an arm around the neck, around the

461
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: shoulder or whatever exactly.

462
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: And so you're literally kind of leveraging, you know, yourself,

463
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: so you don't want to fall, and your body has

464
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: a natural equilibrium. It ain't happening after death. And so

465
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: when you're talking to dead weight and you see when

466
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: you see a body that's in an awkward position, for instance,

467
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: like there, and this is fascinating to me. I don't

468
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: know that I've ever covered a case where you've got

469
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: videography videographic evidence of a body being transported like this,

470
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: where you have an anti mortem prior to death view,

471
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,959
Speaker 1: and then you have a post mortem view of this

472
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: poor poor woman. We can only opine that that's the

473
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, why else would she be in an awkward position?

474
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: And they say positioned sitting or position.

475
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: Position, yeah, and that it's odd and then poof. The

476
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: next time you see Brammer in this vehicle.

477
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: He's in and out of both sides of the car.

478
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: We're talking. Minutes later, he's going in the passenger side

479
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: and the driver's side. He's all around that vehicle on

480
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: video and she's not there. Now they've, as we laid

481
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: it out, they've pinpointed to her along the way. She's walking.

482
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: She's fine, she's walking, she's fine. An hour later they

483
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: returned to town. Now she's not walking, she's not fine.

484
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: She's in an awkward position in the front seat. At

485
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: ten p fifty nine, they get back to his place

486
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: and now she's not even there.

487
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: Completely out of the picture at this point in time.

488
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: And I think the big question is your people would ask, well,

489
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: what in that period of time where you have her,

490
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: where she's vital right or has vitals let me phrase

491
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: it that way. We're assuming that she did, and she's

492
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: moving around, she's animated, and then she's absent that animation.

493
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: We have to assume that something fatal had happened, and

494
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: they were able to actually assess us at the morgue,

495
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: even given the fact that I hate to keep saying

496
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: this is so horrible, but her face was missing, and

497
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: of course I believe that the facial disfiguration, for lack

498
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: of a better term, it's probably animal activity, more than.

499
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: Likely when they find her body in a ditch and

500
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: the face is gone, they're trying to they, being the

501
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: medical people, I always put that as a day. It

502
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: really is a them or a person. It's a joke.

503
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan has to figure out what happened here. We

504
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: have to know what happened. This woman was missing for

505
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: eleven days. Now she's turned up in a ditch. She's frozen.

506
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: They they, the experts believe that she might have been

507
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: in that ditch the entire time she was still missing. Right,

508
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: so her face is missing, and you believe that was

509
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: caused by animals. What conditioned is her body? And what

510
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: could they tell with Eileen Gowen, her sixty year old woman.

511
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: She doesn't just go to sleep in a ditch. What

512
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: caused her to end up in that ditch? Joe? What

513
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: what was the cause of death or was she you know,

514
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: she just did she trip fall bang her head?

515
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe if she tripped fell and banged her head

516
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: multiple times, and also other locations over her upper body,

517
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: because Eileen had had insults that involved her face, her head,

518
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: her neck, and her upper body. And you've got these

519
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: kind of contused areas which fancy term for bruises, right,

520
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: you've got upbraided areas, which implies that there's some kind

521
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: of friction happening, almost like a scratch or you know,

522
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: if we fall down and scrape our knee. That's an abrasion.

523
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: Let me ask you. I've asked you this before, and

524
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: I apologize if you hit me in my armah and

525
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: I have a heart of deck governments later in die

526
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: and you but you hit me hard enough that it

527
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: would normally cause a bruise. But a bruise takes time

528
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: to develop. What did bruce continue to develop after death

529
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: if you hit them? No, it does.

530
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: It stops, right, It's going to freeze at that moment

531
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: in time in the status that it was in when

532
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: you were struck. And so there's a progression. You know,

533
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: when when you're struck in life, the initial color is

534
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: red and then it progresses on out through our color

535
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: changes that we've talked about before, you know, because we

536
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: grade these things. So yeah, I mean, if you've got

537
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: receding bruises, like you know, people have seen these ghastly

538
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: yellow and green colors, at that moment time, that's going

539
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: to stop. It's not going to continue to develop or

540
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: certainly it's not going to resolve either. Right, it's there,

541
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: it's not going anywhere. So you're going to be able

542
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: to appreciate that. And one of the things that the

543
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: Emmy was tasked with here, and she had a real

544
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: difficult time, I think, and it's no fault of hers

545
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: because she's dealing with a decomposing body. But you know,

546
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: when she got her initial assessment was that she had

547
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: left the manner of death undetermined, which our manners, you know, screaming,

548
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, are like homicide. You know, you're thinking how

549
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: she wind up here, unless she's thinking she's got this

550
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: trauma to her body, which in fact she had almost

551
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: like a big they're describing it as an L shaped

552
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: laceration to her head, which gives you a sense that

553
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: maybe she was struck with something. So I don't know

554
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: if she's initially thinking, okay, perhaps perhaps since she's in

555
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 1: a ditch and this does happen, she's struck by vehicle

556
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: and tossed over, you know, tossed over and the person

557
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: just drove off. Maybe they weren't aware, Maybe they thought

558
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: it was a deer that they hit and they just

559
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: kept on going because she didn't have anything to necessarily

560
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: hang her hat on at that point in time. It's

561
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: trying to be as objective as possible. Now, the police

562
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: had seen.

563
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 2: Marx on.

564
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: Eileen's neck, which they thought was a sign of perhaps

565
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: a strangulation or maybe a ligature strangulation. But the me

566
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: at that point in time said, no, I don't concur

567
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: with that. I don't believe it. And this is a

568
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: very interesting case, Dave, because Brammer, who is eventually charged

569
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: in this case, not just with a homicide, he charged

570
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: with a let me just throw this out there to you,

571
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: abuse of a corpse. So they have a sense about

572
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: what this guy has done, theme could not come to

573
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: a definitive conclusion at that point in time. So who

574
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: do they call. Well, the authorities actually say, you know what,

575
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: We're going to go try to get a second opinion,

576
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: and they reached out to doctor Michael Biden.

577
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: Is that a normal thing?

578
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: Is that?

579
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: It just seems to me to be odd and I

580
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: could be totally wrong. Is normal? It is standard operating procedure.

581
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: No, it's not normal because you have board certified forensic

582
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: pathologists and these folks are academically and professionally qualified to

583
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: make these determinations. But this is an example of the

584
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: police pushing this issue because they knew circumstantially what Brammer

585
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: was up to. I think, And plus, you know, you

586
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: made a great point talking about the videoography here, they

587
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: got this guy cold on tape transporting her body and

588
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: then poof, she disappears. And the last time her physical

589
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: remains are seen, she's contracted in some way, laying in

590
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: a we don't really know, but she's in this odd

591
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: positions as they're passing by the CCTV. They know something's up.

592
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that they probably went to the pathologist

593
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: for Iowa and said, look, we're going to reach out

594
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: to doctor Boden.

595
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 2: That makes sense, So, you know, Joe, that makes perfectly

596
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: good sense, because all right, you mentioned they know Brammer

597
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: has done this. They've got to get the proof. Okay,

598
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: they know. They know from their investigation this is a

599
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 2: couple that had a very volatile relationship when they drank.

600
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: They know that he had kicked her out. They know

601
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: there was us safe with money in it, and in

602
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: their investigation police were able to first of all, he

603
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 2: lied to them, okay. And this is important because Sam

604
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: Brammer would give the police a statement and they would

605
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: find the lies and they would call him back in

606
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: and say, hey, Sam, well we know this isn't true.

607
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: Tell me what happened here. You know it was a

608
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: constant thing. He actually met with police four different times

609
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: because when he would come in and tell another lie

610
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: to cover it was just cremit facts. Well one thing

611
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: investigators focused on with Brammer knowing he was lying, they

612
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: already knew something else that two witnesses who spoke to

613
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 2: police said that before her disappearance, Gowan had been kicked

614
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: out of the apartment she shared with Brammer, and that

615
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: Brammer had been holding her personal safe containing fifteen hundred

616
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: dollars until she paid him three hundred dollars. Police noted

617
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: on February fifteenth, Sam Bramer deposited fifteen hundred dollars into

618
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: his bank account. Now she has reported missing that day

619
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: on February fifteenth. On the fifteenth, she hadn't been seen

620
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: in a few days. That was the part of this

621
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: that actually matters, because the day we were talking about

622
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: that she was seen in the awkward position and all

623
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: that was a couple of days before the fifteen was

624
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 2: the thirteenth, and now we have a woman who is frozen,

625
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: her face is missing. You say that's from animal life,

626
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: and that makes sense actually, because isn't that what animals

627
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: go after? The available tissue that is exposed.

628
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: When she was found, Dave, she was still wearing the

629
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: same clothing she had last been seen alive in. And

630
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: I think that that's it's not like she had run

631
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: off as they say, And you know she had to

632
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: change of clothes with her now the last clothing she

633
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: had actually been witnessed wearing in life. She was still

634
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: adorned in those clothing when she's recovered out of that ditch.

635
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: And that's an important piece to this as well. Going

636
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: back to the autopsy, they still had to call Boden

637
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: in and I want folks to understand he never examined

638
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: her body. Boden didn't. He didn't examine her body. What

639
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: he examined were probably tissues that had been preserved. He

640
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: examined photography from the autopsy, and he examined probably the

641
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: images at the scene, you know, where she was found.

642
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: Relative to this, and his conclusion, Dave, is that this

643
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: was a homicide and it was a homicide assixiation, that

644
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 1: this was an asphixial death that ended Aileen's life.

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Speaker 2: How does he figure that out from pictures when the

646
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: actual examiner that saw her body couldn't do it? And

647
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 2: is this really you mentioned the police were the ones

648
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: probably pushing for this because they had all of the proof.

649
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: They had everything from the video and everything else. They

650
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: had plenty of evidence pointing to Sam Bramer guilty of

651
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: ending the life of his off girlfriend. The other thing

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00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: is I mentioned they interviewed him four times. After his

653
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: last interview with police, Sam Bramer took his truck to

654
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 2: the salvage yard had it crushed and shredded.

655
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Speaker 1: But that goes to the injuries. I think he even Brammer,

656
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: he had enough wisdom about him to know that if

657
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: that truck remained, that there is a high probability that

658
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: they're going to find some kind of trace evidence and

659
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: probably biological evidence that's going to tie back to Aileen.

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Speaker 1: It should be noted that Brammer was found guilty of

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00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: secondary murder and abusive corpse, which is actually tied back

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00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: to the dumping of this poor woman's remains, as well

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00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: as second degree theft. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

664
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: is body Buy It