Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. On May tenth, two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: a sixteen year old was shot and killed in the
Speaker 1: Westmont section of South la An area so notorious it
Speaker 1: was known as death Alley. One of the victim's brothers
Speaker 1: identified twenty year old Jafama Coleman as the driver of
Speaker 1: the van used in the shooting and fifteen year old
Speaker 1: Able Soto as the gunman. Due to faulty eyewitness testimony
Speaker 1: and inconsistencies in photo identification, Jaffama was convicted of first
Speaker 1: degree murder and sentenced to twenty five years to life
Speaker 1: in prison, even though no physical evidence ever linked him
Speaker 1: to the murder, and Able Soto was sentenced to seventy
Speaker 1: two years to life. While incarcerated, Coleman would teach himself
Speaker 1: the law, arguing his case all the way to the
Speaker 1: California Supreme Court, before an unlikely duo joined in to
Speaker 1: assist his efforts, the now undeniably legendary defense attorney Ellen
Speaker 1: Eggers and a true crime obsessed teacher from Topanga Canyon
Speaker 1: named Jessica Jacobs. Once these three joined forces, they became
Speaker 1: a legal force of nature, and as of this year,
Speaker 1: after serving nineteen years for a crime he did not commit,
Speaker 1: Jeffama Coleman is now a freeman. Today I am joined
Speaker 1: by JEFFA Ma Coleman and Jessica Jacobs to discuss their
Speaker 1: very real friendship and shared passion to fight in justice.
Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful conviction, both of you.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so Jafama. Let's just start in the very beginning,
Speaker 1: before any of this happened. What was your childhood and
Speaker 1: your upbringing?
Speaker 2: Like, my parents split when I was I can't even
Speaker 2: remember what age, but maybe I was around four years
Speaker 2: old or something like that, six, but I remember it
Speaker 2: for sure. We moved to Lynnwood with my grandparents and
Speaker 2: that that environment was a lot better. No, I had
Speaker 2: some a lot of good moments, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: I managed to become a little entrepreneur when I was
Speaker 2: a kid, I used to go around in the neighborhood
Speaker 2: selling candy and are going around in the neighborhood cutting
Speaker 2: people's grass and just to make extra money to buy
Speaker 2: like toys, nice clothes, and you know, things that I
Speaker 2: personally wanted.
Speaker 1: Did you have ambitions for the future that you can
Speaker 1: think looking back?
Speaker 2: No. As I got older and became a teen, I
Speaker 2: did you know, I've always wanted to own my own business,
Speaker 2: for sure. I think that stem from my childhood of
Speaker 2: doing my own thing, you know, cutting grass, walking the
Speaker 2: streets of South Central up and down Crenshaw, selling CDs
Speaker 2: and incense, And I just kind of had a little
Speaker 2: entrepreneurial type of mentality. So ultimately I got a legit
Speaker 2: job at Winners, so became a manager you know, when
Speaker 2: I was like seventeen or eighteen. Then started working at
Speaker 2: United Rentos as a yard guy, but worked my way
Speaker 2: up into the office, became a sales coordinator and stuff
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: So I mean you had drive, Yeah, yeah, yeah, from
Speaker 1: a very early age.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1: So by the time this had unfolded. Had you had
Speaker 1: any kind of run ins with the law?
Speaker 2: I mean I have. I mean, so when I was
Speaker 2: a kid when we were living and live where we
Speaker 2: eventually moved to South Central, and that's when things started
Speaker 2: to take a turn. Culture there was different, the environment
Speaker 2: was different, and you know, for period I managed to
Speaker 2: avoid becoming a product to my environment. It wasn't until
Speaker 2: I went to high school that I started associating with
Speaker 2: you know, game members, taggers or whatever. It became like
Speaker 2: a norm for me. I got involved with tagging crews,
Speaker 2: like graffited on walls, I got into fights, you know.
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to portray myself as an angel.
Speaker 1: But there's also if that's your environment, yeah, there is
Speaker 1: a very real social aspect to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, no.
Speaker 1: You want friends, you want a group, you want a
Speaker 1: sense of belonging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: We did mention in the intro that the murder occurred
Speaker 1: in the Westmont section of South LA and that it
Speaker 1: was an area referred to as Death Alley for a reason.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, just paint a picture of what the environment
Speaker 1: was like in two thousand and three.
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to say it was a war zone,
Speaker 2: but you had to know the streets in order to
Speaker 2: know where to go and where not to go. At
Speaker 2: what specific time and stuff like that, because it was bad.
Speaker 2: You know, it was bad enough for me to feel
Speaker 2: the need to have a gun. For sure. It's a
Speaker 2: true ghetto.
Speaker 1: It wasn't the kind of place where people said stuff
Speaker 1: like this never happens, No, And so that really takes
Speaker 1: us up to the night that all of this happened.
Speaker 1: But at that point, you're twenty, and are you a
Speaker 1: new father or soon to be father at that point soon.
Speaker 2: To be so, so eventually I moved to Long Beach.
Speaker 2: You know, really Clint, my act up, had a really
Speaker 2: good job, got married, planned our daughter. Like it was
Speaker 2: just kind of like me creating that that picture of
Speaker 2: a family and environment that I've always waned, and it
Speaker 2: actually become in reality because I really kind of had
Speaker 2: my stuff together and so things were falling in a line.
Speaker 2: And even when they accused me of this crime, you know,
Speaker 2: I really didn't take it seriously because I guess you
Speaker 2: can say I was naive. I've truly believed, I mean
Speaker 2: literally believe that if you're innocent, you'll be fine. I
Speaker 2: was wrong.
Speaker 1: There's no way to find an innocent man guilty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was naive. And then when it happened and
Speaker 2: I realized how many other people it was. I was
Speaker 2: dumbfound it. I was like, really says the system was
Speaker 2: just amazingly flawed in understatement.
Speaker 1: So that takes us, as I said, to the night
Speaker 1: where all of this happened. And May tenth, twenty oh three,
Speaker 1: sixteen year old named Jose Roblas and his family were
Speaker 1: hosting a backyard barbecue at their home on one hundred
Speaker 1: and first Street, and around nine o'clock, he decides to
Speaker 1: walk to the liquor store, but on the way there,
Speaker 1: he ends up getting shot multiple times in what was
Speaker 1: basically described as a drive by shooting. He ends up
Speaker 1: dying of the gunshot wounds. Initially, the investigation focuses on
Speaker 1: local gangs that are implicated in interviews with the victims brothers.
Speaker 1: Do you remember any speculation or that was it? You
Speaker 1: just heard a murder happened, and then suddenly you find
Speaker 1: out you're the target.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly how it laid out. I heard a murder,
Speaker 2: like I didn't even know who this Chino guy was,
Speaker 2: you know, I course heard of the name after the fact.
Speaker 2: And then when I even when I heard that people
Speaker 2: were assuming I was responsible, I still really didn't take
Speaker 2: it seriously, like I just I just had a naive
Speaker 2: believe like if you didn't do it, you'll you'll be fine.
Speaker 1: And not only that, you had an alibi.
Speaker 2: Yeah I did.
Speaker 1: You were in a Blockbuster video store that night. It's
Speaker 1: your wife.
Speaker 2: Since it was a Saturday, like on my Saturdays, which
Speaker 2: is like typically my days off, like Saturdays and Sunday,
Speaker 2: I usually do something. I usually either go to six Flags, Disneyland,
Speaker 2: the movie theaters out with a bunch of friends. Those
Speaker 2: just my social circles. And so fortunately, somewhat fortunately for me,
Speaker 2: I was with my friends pretty much throughout the day.
Speaker 2: Initially I was planning on going to movie theaters. I
Speaker 2: ended up going to Blockbuster. You know, I'm with several
Speaker 2: friends and a few family members, and it was just
Speaker 2: it was just a regular day for us.
Speaker 1: So tell me the second that suddenly you realize that
Speaker 1: you're the person being named.
Speaker 2: So when I took it a little more seriously, I
Speaker 2: was at work one day. I don't know how long
Speaker 2: after the incident, it had to be within the first
Speaker 2: week or two, you know, I'm not completely sure. Two
Speaker 2: detectives came to my job and I asked us they
Speaker 2: can speak with me. I was like, sure, why not?
Speaker 2: And I knew what they were there for at that moment,
Speaker 2: and but it was it's somewhat of a odd story.
Speaker 2: So my supervisors were really cool with me. And I
Speaker 2: seen the detectives walking in like towards our establishment. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, look at two detectives, and I made
Speaker 2: a little joke. I was like, Oh, they're here for
Speaker 2: the black guy for South Centro. Turns out they were
Speaker 2: Oh Lord. When we discovered they really were there for me,
Speaker 2: he turned red and was dying. I mean he was
Speaker 2: like crying. He was like, go to the back and talk.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh wow. So I went to the back
Speaker 2: and spoke to him. I actually didn't feel uncomfortable speaking
Speaker 2: to him, like I just still had that, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, naive position, like you'll be fine. You didn't
Speaker 2: do anything. So I told him as much as I
Speaker 2: can remember, like hey, I was here, I was here.
Speaker 2: I think I was wearing this like I didn't remember
Speaker 2: every little detail of the day because I had no
Speaker 2: reason to remember every little detail of the day. So
Speaker 2: they might have been some inconsistencies or whatever, but for
Speaker 2: the most part, everything turned out to be accurate because
Speaker 2: they somehow they I don't know if they investigated shortly after,
Speaker 2: but they di covered everything I said was lining up.
Speaker 2: You know, I told them I was with this person,
Speaker 2: or I went here and here and here, and.
Speaker 3: You had receipts also.
Speaker 2: So I don't clean my car. Well, I didn't clean
Speaker 2: my car every day, so I still had the little
Speaker 2: receipt balled up like I'm under the seat, and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, here's the receipt. Here you go, blah blah.
Speaker 2: But the problem with well, it shouldn't have been a
Speaker 2: problem at the time. But do you know what they
Speaker 2: said in response of me having the receipts and you know,
Speaker 2: my story lining up with others, They took the position
Speaker 2: I learned this later on, like when I had got
Speaker 2: access to my reports. They took the position that I
Speaker 2: was prepared for them to show up. They just twisted
Speaker 2: it as opposed to it simply been the truth, which
Speaker 2: is why it's adding up.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, their eyewitness accounts are morphing
Speaker 1: and changing and suddenly boom, you come into focus. Even
Speaker 1: though these eyewitness accounts were for people who were almost
Speaker 1: a football field away from the van that passed by yeah,
Speaker 1: did you was there anything that ever linked you to
Speaker 1: what they described as a white van with brown paneling.
Speaker 2: Nothing, never on the bait white man, never been in
Speaker 2: a white band, anything like that.
Speaker 3: I mean it probably never go in a white van.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, traumatized. I mean it was so ridiculous. I mean,
Speaker 2: one witness went from saying it was two male Hispanics
Speaker 2: and then name individuals that are Hispanic, and then after
Speaker 2: having conversations with other people, was like, Okay, the driver's black.
Speaker 2: The driver looked like this person. Then eventually years later
Speaker 2: other driver was him. You know what I mean? It
Speaker 2: was Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Loved that it was originally two Hispanic men, then two
Speaker 1: black men, and then I'll exploit the difference one of beach.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: Just crazy. Okay, So ten months after the shooting, actually
Speaker 1: they reinterview one of the eyewitnesses and for the first
Speaker 1: time now he names able Soto as the gunman and
Speaker 1: then basically says that one of the victim's brothers said
Speaker 1: that you were the driver. So who is he to
Speaker 1: contradict what he said?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he took the position I have to go along
Speaker 2: with what he said.
Speaker 1: And when do they come back to you? Did they
Speaker 1: bring you in for questioning before you're arrested?
Speaker 2: No, they did not. They just charged me and I
Speaker 2: was sent to county jail and fighting murder. And you know,
Speaker 2: I was paranoid actually because I knew. I was so
Speaker 2: paranoid because they were charging me for murder. I knew
Speaker 2: I was in this, and I knew that they had
Speaker 2: lying witness they may have to have lying witnesses against me.
Speaker 2: I was like, what could they be doing? So I
Speaker 2: was fearful. I was like, Oh, what if they're trying
Speaker 2: to frame me? What if they're trying to put a
Speaker 2: murder weapon on me? My mind was going crazy. I
Speaker 2: was just thinking the worst, Like there's no way.
Speaker 1: In hell you weren't wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Wait, when was the light detector test? That was in between?
Speaker 2: That was when I was That was that was when
Speaker 2: I was out. Yeah, I was out. It was after
Speaker 2: they first came to interview me at my job.
Speaker 4: Okay, right, so after the job interview, before the v yes,
Speaker 4: and you went voluntarily to go take a light detect
Speaker 4: your test.
Speaker 1: I did all things that make sense in the mind
Speaker 1: of an innocent person. You know, why wouldn't you answer questions?
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you go in if you're innocent, you have
Speaker 1: nothing to hide, and then you realize that anything you do,
Speaker 1: anything you say, is going to be used against you.
Speaker 1: So what was that light detector test? What were the results?
Speaker 1: What did they claim were the results?
Speaker 2: So we discovered this after the fact too, Like there's
Speaker 2: a protocol they were supposed to follow, Like they're only
Speaker 2: supposed to interview for how long?
Speaker 4: Just I don't remember, less than ten minutes or the
Speaker 4: results aren't going to be inconclusive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they interviewed me for like I don't really remember.
Speaker 2: It was a while.
Speaker 4: Yeah, before they hooked up the miss exactly. And we
Speaker 4: actually didn't get to see the video of the machine.
Speaker 4: We got to see the hour and a half interview
Speaker 4: leading up to hooking up the machine, and as soon
Speaker 4: as they hook up the machine, the tape stops.
Speaker 3: Which is interesting.
Speaker 4: Because the report says that you were deceptive, but it
Speaker 4: doesn't specify as to what, you know, what did he
Speaker 4: say that that?
Speaker 3: And so I'm wondering, like what that could have been.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you have your own speculation as to
Speaker 4: what it could be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do remember, like they asked me like impossible
Speaker 2: trickery questions, right, like they was like, did you have
Speaker 2: anything whatsoever to do with the murder of Jose Roblez?
Speaker 2: And I was right about to just answer no, but
Speaker 2: he stopped me before I asked he no. He goes, uh,
Speaker 2: before you say yes or no when I say anything whatsoever?
Speaker 2: I mean, like this is how I remember, Like I mean,
Speaker 2: you're a driver, things got out of there, you're a shooter,
Speaker 2: you sent somebody, or you think you know who did it?
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh shit, I think I may
Speaker 2: know who did it, but I was will they will?
Speaker 2: And it be like, okay, I think this person you know?
Speaker 2: And that kind of threw me way off.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and it sounds like the tape running out
Speaker 1: wasn't the only excuse. The word but jack assery with
Speaker 1: with tape issues because the surveillance tape at the Blockbuster
Speaker 1: video is all scrambled when they try to use it
Speaker 1: in your defense, yeah, but yet miraculously fixed when you
Speaker 1: go back, yeah, to use it.
Speaker 2: We're talking about an investigator, detective investigator who has been
Speaker 2: on a force for X amount of years prior to
Speaker 2: this case. We're talking about a prosecutor that's been a
Speaker 2: prosecutor for X amount of years before my case. Excuse
Speaker 2: my friends, but there's no way in hell that they
Speaker 2: do not know how to operate the proper system to
Speaker 2: see this video tape. Clearly no way, you know. So
Speaker 2: under the crowd control of the da at trial, they
Speaker 2: claimed they could not tell one time I arrived. They
Speaker 2: claimed that once you play the tape it's all garbled
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, because they played it in a
Speaker 2: regular VCR tape. Of course it's going to be all garble.
Speaker 2: You're planning in an inappropriate system. It was supposed to
Speaker 2: be in a system called the multiplexure. And me not
Speaker 2: knowing everything about the law, I learned that fairly new
Speaker 2: into the game of learning law. So they for sure knew.
Speaker 1: Leading up to the trial. How confident were you.
Speaker 2: That's hard to say, because like, I was confident, but
Speaker 2: I was I was kind of worried at the same
Speaker 2: time because at the end of the day, like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, well, at the time, I didn't know what
Speaker 2: they were going to try to present a trial, you know.
Speaker 2: I was still like, dang, what if they try to
Speaker 2: frame me? What if they try to do this. I
Speaker 2: just didn't know what they were going to do. But
Speaker 2: I was like, but I'm innocent. So if you know,
Speaker 2: a decent attorney should be able to establish that, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm innocent, And so I kind of had
Speaker 2: mixed emotions. You know, I knew the witnesses were going
Speaker 2: to be lying, but I just didn't know, Like I
Speaker 2: felt like, I don't know. I had a mixed emotion.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm innocing, I'm gonna get out. But
Speaker 2: then I was like, ooh, I'm going through a jury
Speaker 2: because by the time I got to try. Mind you,
Speaker 2: I had been in the county jail for a few
Speaker 2: years and I've seen things. I've seen people say they
Speaker 2: were innocent get found guilty, and I was you know,
Speaker 2: it kind of changed my thought process. And plus I
Speaker 2: had to deal with the drama of being in county jail.
Speaker 2: So I just mentally I was all over the place.
Speaker 1: In terms of who was supporting you in that courtroom.
Speaker 1: I was would assume that your wife, Evelyn was there.
Speaker 2: During I mean we were young, she was young. I'm
Speaker 2: not making excuses, I mean she was there, but you know,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, this case took a
Speaker 2: toll on everybody, so it kind of it kind of
Speaker 2: caused her to kind of. I mean, her being that
Speaker 2: age dealing with this type of stuff was just.
Speaker 3: She also had a new.
Speaker 2: As well and then trying to figure things out on
Speaker 2: her own out there. Because when I was out there,
Speaker 2: like I was really a go getter, like like I
Speaker 2: believed in the idea, like if she didn't want to work,
Speaker 2: she didn't have to work. It was my responsibility to
Speaker 2: make sure I provided. But she was mature enough and
Speaker 2: and and loving enough. We're like, no, like, I feel
Speaker 2: like there's a point where we might where we might struggle.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna get a part time job myself and
Speaker 2: she got a part Like It's just we were just
Speaker 2: in sync at the time. And uh, but again.
Speaker 1: That's that's the ripple effect of the injustice and of
Speaker 1: the cruelty as well, because it's not like you had
Speaker 1: planned for something that's catastrophic to happen, but you're suddenly
Speaker 1: ripped out of your life. Yeah, you're a new husband,
Speaker 1: new father, and now your family is just left to
Speaker 1: fend for themselves basically exactly.
Speaker 2: So everything took a toll on her. We ended up
Speaker 2: breaking up, and you know, she she was she was
Speaker 2: there and she wasn't you know, so.
Speaker 1: So take me back to the trial. As you're sitting
Speaker 1: and you're watching it unfold, it must have been just
Speaker 1: beyond disbelief.
Speaker 2: It was, I mean, what made it really difficult? Like
Speaker 2: when I was found guilty and I heard those words
Speaker 2: like we did the jury find the defendant of Koma
Speaker 2: guilty of first degree pre made it any murder? Like
Speaker 2: I'm just froze and I kind of dropped my jaw,
Speaker 2: like what just happened? And then it I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just wasn't there. I wasn't there. Then when I
Speaker 2: had to go to the holding tank and call my
Speaker 2: brother and whomever. I can't remember who I called, it
Speaker 2: was worse when I had to hear myself tell other
Speaker 2: people I lost. I broke down in tears. Just just
Speaker 2: talking about it just made it worse for me, Like
Speaker 2: it was just too much.
Speaker 1: You know, the word using the word lost, that's that's
Speaker 1: the first time I've honestly heard that. And you lost
Speaker 1: a lot, yeah, in terms of your your life, But
Speaker 1: it wasn't just guilty. It was you lost years, two decades.
Speaker 2: When I first lost my case, I was like, how
Speaker 2: am I going to deal with this now? Because I
Speaker 2: knew the reality of this disappeal process and all this
Speaker 2: other stuff that's years down the line. So now I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in prison for some time now,
Speaker 2: Like what do I do? You know? So I'm dealing
Speaker 2: with the fears of that. And then the worst thing
Speaker 2: for me was my daughter. You know, she was planned,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I didn't want her to
Speaker 2: grow up not knowing me. That was like my worst fear,
Speaker 2: you know, because my parents weren't together, Like my parents
Speaker 2: weren't present, and I didn't want that to you know,
Speaker 2: I mean my daughter to kind of entertain that same cycle.
Speaker 3: Did she visit you.
Speaker 2: Not? In the beginning, Like my then wife was dealing
Speaker 2: with whatever she was dealing with it, so she didn't
Speaker 2: bring her. I was in her in her life somewhat,
Speaker 2: but then I was dealing with all this stuff with
Speaker 2: being in prison, So I wasn't even as present as
Speaker 2: I probably could have been as far as calling and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I was just in a mentally in
Speaker 2: a different place. But it got to the point too
Speaker 2: where I started calling her every day, my daughter, like
Speaker 2: actively being involved in her life, finding whatever strategic ways
Speaker 2: I can, Yeah, I mean be present, whether it's like
Speaker 2: getting in my stimulus checks, sending her half of my money,
Speaker 2: sending her cards. You know, I got to the point
Speaker 2: to where I'm self educating in the law, making a
Speaker 2: little money, and then supporting my daughter and just really
Speaker 2: really stay active. And luckily for me, she grew up. No,
Speaker 2: I mean luckily for me, she recognized me as father
Speaker 2: and was comfortable with calling me dad.
Speaker 1: And I've read that she became she became your purpose
Speaker 1: and your motivation to stay strong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what kept me going.
Speaker 1: I think there is something really powerful about the fact
Speaker 1: that her age represents, you know, represented for that period
Speaker 1: of time, the amount of time that you had served.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, she's nineteen. I've been in prison nineteen years
Speaker 2: because she was literally born when I was locked up.
Speaker 1: That must have been just you know, there's the power
Speaker 1: passage of time, which I'm sure moves at a very
Speaker 1: different pace when you're inside, but then seeing her grow
Speaker 1: up is just a constant reminder of how much time
Speaker 1: had gone by.
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, true. I mean like even when I talked
Speaker 2: to her about like to my friends and while I
Speaker 2: was incarcerated, like the way I talk about her, I
Speaker 2: didn't realize it until someone brought it up to me
Speaker 2: like a few weeks ago, and Abel brought it up too,
Speaker 2: you know, because I talked to him about my daughter,
Speaker 2: and I talked to people about my daughter. She's like
Speaker 2: three years old, but I could. I can't help myself, right,
Speaker 2: And then when people meet her, they're like, oh shit,
Speaker 2: she's an adult.
Speaker 1: You know, she'll always be your baby. It doesn't change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's that element of things there were.
Speaker 4: There were two people that spoke at Joe Foma's parole
Speaker 4: board hearing. One was his wife and one was his
Speaker 4: wife's sister, and they said he did a better job
Speaker 4: raising his daughter from prison than most men do on
Speaker 4: the outside.
Speaker 3: And I saw that.
Speaker 4: I mean I saw that right away when Jofama and
Speaker 4: I first started talking and he learned I was an educator,
Speaker 4: where we started talking about Joscelyn schooling and her goals
Speaker 4: and everything like that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean that was like one of my
Speaker 2: one priorities, like be present, figure out a way to
Speaker 2: be involved in her life and let her know that
Speaker 2: I'm there, that I love her. So we talked, we talked,
Speaker 2: we talked, we talked, gave her advice, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: she respected my input and I just showed her I
Speaker 2: was present that I cared, you know. I sent her pictures,
Speaker 2: I sent her money, I sent her I sent people
Speaker 2: to go buy her gifts. And when I didn't have it,
Speaker 2: I called on some of my closest friends, Hey, my
Speaker 2: daughter's sick. Can you you know, I don't know what
Speaker 2: the what it was, maybe uber no not uber uh,
Speaker 2: door dash or whatever. I was like, Hey, buy my
Speaker 2: daughter some medicine, send it to her, and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So I just stayed present. Wow, and she felt my love.
Speaker 4: And I remember you telling me about you would have
Speaker 4: family visits with her and she would just come and
Speaker 4: just snuggle with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that meant the world to me, Like it
Speaker 2: made me feel like a father. Like that meant a
Speaker 2: lot to me.
Speaker 1: You know, there's an expression that prison either makes makes
Speaker 1: you better or makes you better. How did you navigate that?
Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest, there were times I was bitter.
Speaker 2: There was times I was angry, There was the times.
Speaker 2: There was times I wanted to give up. There was
Speaker 2: times I to put I'll put it this way this case.
Speaker 2: It took so many of my tears as ridiculous, and
Speaker 2: it got to the point where I said, it doesn't
Speaker 2: deserve my cheers anymore. And you know, I just decided
Speaker 2: to fight and figure it out. So when I when
Speaker 2: I came across obstacles, I just went in my own minds,
Speaker 2: how do I deal with it? How do I around it?
Speaker 2: How do I figure it out? And I just figured
Speaker 2: it out. I started reading law books. Didn't understand what
Speaker 2: the hell I was reading. It was foreign. But then
Speaker 2: I got a law dictionary and when I came across
Speaker 2: a word that I didn't understand, I read the word
Speaker 2: and went back to the sentence. I said, oh, now
Speaker 2: that makes sense, and moved on and kept going and
Speaker 2: kept going and asked questions and just you know, watch
Speaker 2: The Good Wife or you know, other last shows, and
Speaker 2: just started picking up game. And slowly but surely I
Speaker 2: started understanding.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you didn't just understand it. You became
Speaker 1: your own defense attorney, and you, acting as your own lawyer,
Speaker 1: filed a federal petition for writ of habeas corpus and
Speaker 1: you file that in twenty ten and you have to
Speaker 1: wait five years and it's denied, I mean days, weeks, months,
Speaker 1: years of waiting only to have it denied. What is
Speaker 1: what did that do to you.
Speaker 2: That was that was also like I had these moments
Speaker 2: where it was like always the worst, like when I
Speaker 2: got found guilty, when I found when my oppelart attorney
Speaker 2: found the appeal, and I was confident, like, hey, they
Speaker 2: got to see these errors. Then they denied me when
Speaker 2: I found my own paperwork, and then they deny it,
Speaker 2: and like those moments like they already stabbed me in
Speaker 2: the heart, you know, that was just them adding the
Speaker 2: extra daggers to you know what I mean, my spine
Speaker 2: and everything like that, like when is it going to end?
Speaker 2: Like when is somebody going to see this injustice? And
Speaker 2: it just felt like it was never gonna come, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. I kept some level of faith,
Speaker 2: but it's just.
Speaker 1: It was just a lot how how And that's that's
Speaker 1: I mean. I I don't mean to belabor the point,
Speaker 1: but that's so much to handle. And and was was
Speaker 1: there You've spoken about low points, but was there a
Speaker 1: moment where you thought I can't do this anymore? And
Speaker 1: and where did you find the strength to move forward?
Speaker 2: So honestly, I mean, the main motivation was my daughter,
Speaker 2: Like if I give up, I'm giving up on her.
Speaker 1: So another year, five years, pass. Another five years go by,
Speaker 1: and in twenty twenty, forces finally start to align on
Speaker 1: your behalf. Enter Jessica Jacobs, a mother of four and
Speaker 1: a teacher from Topanga Canyon with a taste for binging
Speaker 1: true crime on Netflix. Jessica, just tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about you and what led you to reach out
Speaker 1: to Ellen Eggers.
Speaker 3: When I was watching the Netflix show.
Speaker 4: I was watching a ton of Netflix because it was
Speaker 4: when we were on the initial lockdown for COVID, and
Speaker 4: I was just watching show after show and came across
Speaker 4: this one that was talking about wrongful convictions, and this woman,
Speaker 4: you know, Ellen Eggers, was so passionate that I could
Speaker 4: just feel her energy through the screen. And you know,
Speaker 4: this is one of my out of the box things.
Speaker 4: I'm sure a lot of people are compelled by what
Speaker 4: they see on TV, but I don't know that a
Speaker 4: lot of people would push pause, Google her and call her,
Speaker 4: which is what I did. And then thankfully she is
Speaker 4: one of those type of people who would take the call.
Speaker 4: And so in the beginning I was just helping her
Speaker 4: kind of with technology, you know, and then eventually she
Speaker 4: would have me. She taught me how to do summary
Speaker 4: notes from transcripts, and so I would help her do that.
Speaker 4: But then as we were talking about the cases that
Speaker 4: we were working on, and we had worked on two
Speaker 4: of them together, both ended it in exonerations. I would see
Speaker 4: these little things. I'd be like, oh, but what about that?
Speaker 4: But what about that? And you know, all these pieces,
Speaker 4: and found that I was pretty good at detective work.
Speaker 4: And so, you know, we would I went and talked
Speaker 4: to witnesses, and I went and you know, met with
Speaker 4: coroners and kind of dug around to find the things
Speaker 4: that aren't on the surface. And I guess she thought
Speaker 4: I was pretty good at that. And so, and Joe
Speaker 4: Fauma's brother reached out to her. She was like, well,
Speaker 4: I can't take another case, but I've got this crazy
Speaker 4: lady in southern California.
Speaker 3: I'll just hand it off to her.
Speaker 4: And so, so when I started looking at Joe Fama's
Speaker 4: case and seeing like, what a straightforward case of innocence.
Speaker 4: It was more so than the other two that I
Speaker 4: had looked at in my life.
Speaker 3: I started saying, Okay, you got to take his case.
Speaker 3: You got to take his case.
Speaker 4: I mean, it was two years of us working before
Speaker 4: Ellen even considered taking the case, and when she there
Speaker 4: was one moment when she first considered it, I said
Speaker 4: to her, let's go talk to the brother of.
Speaker 3: The victim, Jesse Roebliss.
Speaker 1: Now, before that, didn't you get the murder book.
Speaker 4: I think it was before that I got the murder book,
Speaker 4: because otherwise, if Ellen has already was already kind of
Speaker 4: on board, she probably would have gone to court instead
Speaker 4: of me. So I think you're I think you're right
Speaker 4: that that happened first. So Joe Fama, I think when
Speaker 4: I won. One of the times I spoke to him
Speaker 4: on the phone, he said, hey, I won this this
Speaker 4: appeal and the Superior Supreme Court, and I was like,
Speaker 4: what does that mean? And so he taught me all
Speaker 4: about like he filed this ten fifty four point nine
Speaker 4: discovery motion with the Superior Court, and then he appealed
Speaker 4: to the second District and they denied him, and all
Speaker 4: these terms were completely foreign to me. And then he
Speaker 4: went to the Supreme Court and it overturned it and
Speaker 4: remanded the lower court to give him his discovery. And
Speaker 4: so he taught me all that, And at the end
Speaker 4: of his lecture to me teaching me law, he goes,
Speaker 4: but I have no way of getting it because I'm
Speaker 4: in here and I don't have a lawyer, and so
Speaker 4: I started making calls and was pretty darn aggressive.
Speaker 3: Oh man, I remember.
Speaker 1: Those calls and you physically went to represent him.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 4: Eventually before that, I was making calls to the DA's
Speaker 4: office regularly, like just pushing, pushing, pushing, like they were like, okay,
Speaker 4: just let her in here, social shut up. And so
Speaker 4: I went in and looked through the whole DA file
Speaker 4: in front of one of the prosecutors. And as I'm
Speaker 4: looking at it, I'm taking pictures of things. And then
Speaker 4: I go home and I and Jafama calls and I go, Okay,
Speaker 4: here's all the things I found, and he's like okay,
Speaker 4: but we're still missing this.
Speaker 3: And so we went to court. Did you write a
Speaker 3: motion to get ables discovery or how did that? Did
Speaker 3: we even get that court date?
Speaker 2: The court day was already established to basically for the
Speaker 2: court just to check the status of how things were
Speaker 2: going right. And then we were there and the just
Speaker 2: was kind of giving me a hard time. I felt
Speaker 2: that she gave me a hard time because she got
Speaker 2: overturned by an inmate, you know, pro per person that
Speaker 2: basically told her she was wrong, and the higher course agreed,
Speaker 2: and then you shined in was like, well what about
Speaker 2: this and that? Blah blah blah, and then she kind
Speaker 2: of softened up and got on board. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So the first time I went to court in person,
Speaker 4: it was just to pick up some documents the CDs
Speaker 4: I had to pick up, so that was that was
Speaker 4: no big deal. It was kind of exciting being in
Speaker 4: a courtroom. But the second time, where Jofama was actually
Speaker 4: at the hearing via video, I also joined via video.
Speaker 3: And in that hearing.
Speaker 4: Is where I said to the judge, your honor, they've
Speaker 4: given us all of the all that they have. However,
Speaker 4: we also know on Jofama's case, but they also have
Speaker 4: Abel's case and they're refusing to give that to us,
Speaker 4: and we think we should and so I argued that
Speaker 4: in front of the judge and she agreed and said, yeah,
Speaker 4: give them as Able's murder book too, and that's where
Speaker 4: we found new evidence.
Speaker 3: But even still looking at Abele's.
Speaker 4: Murder book and Jofama's murder book, looking at the cases
Speaker 4: side by side, there were so many obvious things where
Speaker 4: they could help one another, but there were still things missing.
Speaker 4: And I remember pushing the DA to push the sheriff,
Speaker 4: and then they weren't doing it well enough, and so
Speaker 4: I called the sheriff and I started pushing them. I
Speaker 4: would call every single day to the It was a
Speaker 4: Hamasi bureau that had the records, and I was like,
Speaker 4: how's this request coming, how's this request coming? And finally
Speaker 4: they wrote back in AFFI David saying we don't have
Speaker 4: anything more, and I didn't Joe Fama and I didn't
Speaker 4: believe that still, and so that's when I befriended the
Speaker 4: original homicide detective and said, how can we get more?
Speaker 3: I know there's more, and he.
Speaker 4: Invited me to go with him to the homicide bureau,
Speaker 4: and sure enough, there was more.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Now, I have
Speaker 1: to just stop for a second and say that this
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite aspects of this story and
Speaker 1: of your friendship, and that is the power that getting
Speaker 1: involved actually can have. You've said that lots of people
Speaker 1: are moved when they watch or hear something, but very
Speaker 1: few people insert themselves into the solution. Jo Fama, you
Speaker 1: hear that there is this woman who's now cold calling
Speaker 1: Ellen Eggers, and now she's in your life as well.
Speaker 1: What did you initially make of Jessica?
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to makeup. I was like, I
Speaker 2: don't know where this is going to go. But I
Speaker 2: will say this, like, and I think I can speak
Speaker 2: for a similarly situated people. You know, when you have
Speaker 2: an outside advocate, it gives you hope, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: it gives you that thought process. Okay, maybe something good
Speaker 2: will come of this, because when we're doing it on
Speaker 2: our own, it's just so so hard, you know, because
Speaker 2: they don't take us seriously. We don't have foots on
Speaker 2: ground to interview, go and pick up things and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. So I would say for the most part,
Speaker 2: her becoming a part of my world gave me hope.
Speaker 1: Now, Jessica, you're a mama. For you run a school, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's you describe it for me because.
Speaker 4: Because okay, I guess I run an educational program that
Speaker 4: is a hybrid of unschooling and early college. And the
Speaker 4: unschooling portion is where the learners learn what they want,
Speaker 4: when they want, how they want, and if they want
Speaker 4: to patient a lot of them at the pace they want,
Speaker 4: and a lot of them have decided that they want
Speaker 4: to learn about the law because they were so inspired
Speaker 4: by you know, I would say, oh, you guys, here's
Speaker 4: the latest development. Or I'd be in the middle of
Speaker 4: having a conversation with a student and Jofama would call
Speaker 4: and I'd have to answer because I can't call him back,
Speaker 4: and so then I'd put him on speaker and he'd
Speaker 4: be talking to the students. And so a lot of
Speaker 4: them their unschooling became working on the cases, and some
Speaker 4: of them have taken it quite far. In fact, one
Speaker 4: of them, two of them together started a nonprofit organization
Speaker 4: now and they're working with Jofauma and getting other people
Speaker 4: out of prison.
Speaker 1: We will link with that at the end of the
Speaker 1: episode as well, because I was on that site yesterday.
Speaker 1: It's pretty damn impressive. But my point is also that
Speaker 1: you had a fairly full plate in terms of so
Speaker 1: but where where did you get that initiative that I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm going to spend a lot of my time
Speaker 1: and effort and focus helping an absolute stranger.
Speaker 3: Hm, I think, hmm, that's a great question. I was.
Speaker 4: I think I was bored during the pandemic because I
Speaker 4: didn't have students coming in person as often. They still
Speaker 4: did occasionally, but not as often. So I think I
Speaker 4: had the pandemic opened up the door for my first
Speaker 4: conversation with Ellen, and I'm learning more, even more now
Speaker 4: that I've been involved in this world, is how many
Speaker 4: innocent people are stuck behind bars without any outside advocate,
Speaker 4: without any attorney.
Speaker 3: And if I have the ability to do it, it
Speaker 3: would be.
Speaker 4: Just dishonorable for me to not do it, I guess,
Speaker 4: And so I've made time and create brought it in
Speaker 4: so it's a part of my program so that that
Speaker 4: you know, that makes time, and you know, my family
Speaker 4: members help, and the students help, and then even the students'
Speaker 4: parents want to help. And I feel like the more
Speaker 4: we can tell people that you don't have to be
Speaker 4: a lawyer to help somebody, the more we can help people,
Speaker 4: and not just incarcerated people. But that's kind of where
Speaker 4: a focus is because that just seems to be like
Speaker 4: the epitome of what's wrong with our world in general
Speaker 4: is like we've got this system to punish people who
Speaker 4: do something wrong, which I have my disagreements with in
Speaker 4: and of itself, but then to put somebody who didn't
Speaker 4: do anything wrong into that situation and not let them
Speaker 4: have an avenue to undo it is just crazy making.
Speaker 4: So I could, I wouldn't be able to stop if
Speaker 4: I if I wanted to.
Speaker 3: Ellen Eggers is the same way.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think every single I would say, every
Speaker 4: other conversation that I had with her over the course
Speaker 4: of course of four years, she said, I'm not doing
Speaker 4: this anymore.
Speaker 3: I can't take another case. This is too much work.
Speaker 3: And then she's got this later. Yeah, yeah, exactly, she can't.
Speaker 3: She can't.
Speaker 1: So we talked about clearing the hurdle of getting the
Speaker 1: murder books, and once you get to see Abel and
Speaker 1: Jafama's side by side, things become very clear. But talk
Speaker 1: to me about getting the witness to recant, because that's
Speaker 1: fascinating and something that neither you or Ellen Eggers thought
Speaker 1: would happen the way it did.
Speaker 4: I thought it was going to happen that way, but
Speaker 4: that was just in my my naivety. I had no
Speaker 4: reason to think that I shouldn't have thought that, but
Speaker 4: I did and so I thought, well, it can't hurt
Speaker 4: to ask him, And so I asked Ellen if she
Speaker 4: would go with me because I couldn't go into a
Speaker 4: prison on my own. And she reluctantly agreed, and I
Speaker 4: kind of just teased her.
Speaker 3: I was like, it'll be a girl's trip, you know.
Speaker 3: And we talked the whole.
Speaker 4: Way about you know, because it's a long drive, five
Speaker 4: hour drive each way. She's like, this is such a
Speaker 4: waste of time. This is ridiculous. And we walk in
Speaker 4: and we told Jesse who we were and he didn't
Speaker 4: even like look at us. He just looked at the table,
Speaker 4: saw a piece of paper, grabbed a pen and wrote
Speaker 4: down it wasn't Jofauma and handed over the piece of paper.
Speaker 4: And I looked at Ellen and I was like, told ye.
Speaker 4: But then we continued interviewing him and we got a
Speaker 4: lot of information that ended up helping with the case.
Speaker 1: So that piece of paper ended up being well worth
Speaker 1: the five hour trip each way. Yes, because in January
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, Ellen Eggers presented a claim of
Speaker 1: innocence on behalf of Coleman and Soto to the Los
Speaker 1: Angeles County District Attorney's Conviction Integrity Unit, and luckily you
Speaker 1: had a progressive and good person in position of power
Speaker 1: there and when they did not take immediate action to
Speaker 1: investigate the case, she asked the District Attorney's Habeas Litigation Unit,
Speaker 1: which is where the person is to consider the evidence,
Speaker 1: and after doing so, November of twenty twenty three, Eggers
Speaker 1: was about to file a state petition for a writ
Speaker 1: of habeas corpus. The Habeas Unit agreed to prepare a
Speaker 1: joint petition for a writ of habeas corpus for both cases,
Speaker 1: beginning first with the Soto case, and on January third,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, Jofama Coleman was released from prison. What
Speaker 1: did that mean to both of you?
Speaker 4: I couldn't be there the day he was least because
Speaker 4: I was traveling, And I remember just being so happy
Speaker 4: to be able to touch you.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, you're real, I can actually I can
Speaker 3: touch you.
Speaker 1: So you didn't even meet physically until after Jofama was released, right,
Speaker 1: That's amazing. But you very much knew one another at
Speaker 1: that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much.
Speaker 4: So, Yes, we ended up in our you know, I
Speaker 4: was talking to Jofama so much, mostly via the tablet,
Speaker 4: but on the phone too, that when I'd have problems
Speaker 4: in my life, I'd be like, oh good Joe, Fama,
Speaker 4: let me tell him all about it.
Speaker 3: So he ended up being a confidant for me too.
Speaker 1: And then on February twenty seventh, twenty twenty four, the
Speaker 1: Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge William Ryan granted Coleman's
Speaker 1: joint habeas petition for both you and able Soto, vacating
Speaker 1: your convictions, dismissing the charges and declaring you actually innocent.
Speaker 1: That must have been like a whole nother day of
Speaker 1: freedom on many different levels.
Speaker 2: It was, you know, the justice sign with the statue,
Speaker 2: you know, the justice sign with the little you know,
Speaker 2: when he when he declared me innocent, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: now that justice size has some weight, you know, because before,
Speaker 2: you know, I used to use poetic words like when
Speaker 2: I write to certain people, and I was like, if
Speaker 2: Justice was the person it would be frowning upon this situation.
Speaker 2: Like Justice was smiling at that day because you know,
Speaker 2: justice isn't what people perceive it to be. So I
Speaker 2: felt a glimpse of justice in that moment.
Speaker 1: What is your life like today?
Speaker 2: Still a bit overwhelming? It's a big adjustment. Like I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna basically fake the phone and act like it's
Speaker 2: peaches and creams. It's still an adjustment. I mean I
Speaker 2: was I've been away from civilization for you know, nineteen years,
Speaker 2: and it's like this is a lot to adjust to.
Speaker 2: I mean, I actually dealt with some anxiety when I
Speaker 2: first got out. But I'm getting better and it's a
Speaker 2: huge adjustment. It's going to be a process for sure,
Speaker 2: but I'm enjoying every moment.
Speaker 1: And how is your daughter?
Speaker 2: She is great. I mean I'm even dealing with the health.
Speaker 2: She loves me to death. But you know, when you
Speaker 2: have this person wanting your attention and this person wanting
Speaker 2: your attention and this person wanted to hang, guys like
Speaker 2: you got to create that balance, you know, and make
Speaker 2: them all feel appreciated. So I'm juggling that. We have
Speaker 2: our ups and downs sometimes, but for the most part,
Speaker 2: it's pretty good.
Speaker 1: What what does your friendship mean to both of you?
Speaker 1: And what you admire most about the other?
Speaker 4: You know, I think I have a son who's exactly
Speaker 4: the same age as Jofama's daughter, and so having that
Speaker 4: common thread but knowing how different it was that I
Speaker 4: got to actually raise my son. I'd say what I
Speaker 4: admire most about him, Gosh, there's so many things. I
Speaker 4: definitely admire his role as a father, but then seeing
Speaker 4: him on the outside navigating everything he just described, watching
Speaker 4: him learn, like he's an amazing learner. And then I'd say,
Speaker 4: probably the biggest, biggest thing I'm impressed with is his
Speaker 4: commitment to justice. And you know, I remember him telling
Speaker 4: me like he wanted to be a lawyer, and I
Speaker 4: would tell other people and they're like, Jess, come on,
Speaker 4: he's going to get out and he's going to want
Speaker 4: to live his life. He's not going to want to
Speaker 4: focus on the justice system after and I said, okay,
Speaker 4: you're right. And I remember telling him like, don't keep
Speaker 4: telling me you want to go to school and be
Speaker 4: a lawyer if you really don't, like, you don't have
Speaker 4: to do that. He's like, no, I really want to.
Speaker 4: And then sure enough, you know, he's hobnobin with all
Speaker 4: the innocent attorneys and mentoring these teenagers who are going
Speaker 4: to law school and getting a's in his classes, and
Speaker 4: you know, so that's that's super impressive. He's an amazing
Speaker 4: role model for his own kids.
Speaker 3: But also everybody else is.
Speaker 1: Now You're you're on the hot seat, sir. What is
Speaker 1: your friendship with Jessica mean to you? And what do
Speaker 1: you most admire about her?
Speaker 2: It means everything. I mean when I see her, I
Speaker 2: see my own freedom. You know, She's really tenacious. That's
Speaker 2: what I admire most about her and her her way
Speaker 2: of thinking. Her out of the box thinking is very
Speaker 2: effective on many fronts. So overall, that's what I can say.
Speaker 2: I admire both most about her.
Speaker 1: You know, you've mentioned that fighting injustice is a shared
Speaker 1: passion for both of you, and I completely agree with you,
Speaker 1: Jessica when you say, once you see it, you can't
Speaker 1: unsee it, and it's your more obligation to fight for
Speaker 1: what's fair. You know, Jafama, I read a quote from you,
Speaker 1: and I think I actually pulled it off of petition
Speaker 1: that one of your family members started for you. But
Speaker 1: you said that I'm a black male who grew up
Speaker 1: in a single parent home with no wealth or platform.
Speaker 1: As such, the wrongs I suffer are easily swept under the.
Speaker 2: Rug, exactly, And that's that's why these situations are are
Speaker 2: are too rare, you know, because there are other many,
Speaker 2: other Blacks and Mexicans that are in prison for crimes
Speaker 2: they did not commit, or you know, even if if
Speaker 2: they were somehow involved in the crime, they didn't get
Speaker 2: justice in a sense of fair sentencing, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, compared to their other people. So it's like
Speaker 2: the system is just as minorities different. I feel.
Speaker 1: Is that part of what drives you, if not entirely
Speaker 1: what drives you and your desire to be.
Speaker 2: A lawyer, Yeah, it actually is. But also because like
Speaker 2: I'm also somewhat of a I guess you can say
Speaker 2: self critical at times, but after going what going through
Speaker 2: what I've gone through, I kind of actually believe in
Speaker 2: my abilities to become an attorney.
Speaker 1: You're both incredibly inspiring. I really appreciate the time you
Speaker 1: took with us.
Speaker 2: Thank you appreciating here, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,
Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Biel, research by
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social
Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one