WEBVTT - #464 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Jofama Coleman

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<v Speaker 1>Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

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<v Speaker 1>been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,

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<v Speaker 1>even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like

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<v Speaker 1>to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it

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<v Speaker 1>like to be their ally, the one outside committed to

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<v Speaker 1>fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this

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<v Speaker 1>is wrongful conviction. On May tenth, two thousand and three,

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<v Speaker 1>a sixteen year old was shot and killed in the

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<v Speaker 1>Westmont section of South la An area so notorious it

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<v Speaker 1>was known as death Alley. One of the victim's brothers

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<v Speaker 1>identified twenty year old Jafama Coleman as the driver of

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<v Speaker 1>the van used in the shooting and fifteen year old

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<v Speaker 1>Able Soto as the gunman. Due to faulty eyewitness testimony

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<v Speaker 1>and inconsistencies in photo identification, Jaffama was convicted of first

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<v Speaker 1>degree murder and sentenced to twenty five years to life

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<v Speaker 1>in prison, even though no physical evidence ever linked him

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<v Speaker 1>to the murder, and Able Soto was sentenced to seventy

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<v Speaker 1>two years to life. While incarcerated, Coleman would teach himself

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<v Speaker 1>the law, arguing his case all the way to the

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<v Speaker 1>California Supreme Court, before an unlikely duo joined in to

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<v Speaker 1>assist his efforts, the now undeniably legendary defense attorney Ellen

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<v Speaker 1>Eggers and a true crime obsessed teacher from Topanga Canyon

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<v Speaker 1>named Jessica Jacobs. Once these three joined forces, they became

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<v Speaker 1>a legal force of nature, and as of this year,

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<v Speaker 1>after serving nineteen years for a crime he did not commit,

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffama Coleman is now a freeman. Today I am joined

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<v Speaker 1>by JEFFA Ma Coleman and Jessica Jacobs to discuss their

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<v Speaker 1>very real friendship and shared passion to fight in justice.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to wrongful conviction, both of you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having us.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so Jafama. Let's just start in the very beginning,

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<v Speaker 1>before any of this happened. What was your childhood and

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<v Speaker 1>your upbringing?

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<v Speaker 2>Like, my parents split when I was I can't even

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<v Speaker 2>remember what age, but maybe I was around four years

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<v Speaker 2>old or something like that, six, but I remember it

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<v Speaker 2>for sure. We moved to Lynnwood with my grandparents and

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<v Speaker 2>that that environment was a lot better. No, I had

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<v Speaker 2>some a lot of good moments, you know, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I managed to become a little entrepreneur when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a kid, I used to go around in the neighborhood

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<v Speaker 2>selling candy and are going around in the neighborhood cutting

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<v Speaker 2>people's grass and just to make extra money to buy

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<v Speaker 2>like toys, nice clothes, and you know, things that I

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<v Speaker 2>personally wanted.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you have ambitions for the future that you can

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<v Speaker 1>think looking back?

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<v Speaker 2>No. As I got older and became a teen, I

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<v Speaker 2>did you know, I've always wanted to own my own business,

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<v Speaker 2>for sure. I think that stem from my childhood of

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<v Speaker 2>doing my own thing, you know, cutting grass, walking the

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<v Speaker 2>streets of South Central up and down Crenshaw, selling CDs

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<v Speaker 2>and incense, And I just kind of had a little

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<v Speaker 2>entrepreneurial type of mentality. So ultimately I got a legit

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<v Speaker 2>job at Winners, so became a manager you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>I was like seventeen or eighteen. Then started working at

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<v Speaker 2>United Rentos as a yard guy, but worked my way

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<v Speaker 2>up into the office, became a sales coordinator and stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>So I mean you had drive, Yeah, yeah, yeah, from

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<v Speaker 1>a very early age.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I did.

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<v Speaker 1>So by the time this had unfolded. Had you had

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<v Speaker 1>any kind of run ins with the law?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I have. I mean, so when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a kid when we were living and live where we

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<v Speaker 2>eventually moved to South Central, and that's when things started

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<v Speaker 2>to take a turn. Culture there was different, the environment

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<v Speaker 2>was different, and you know, for period I managed to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid becoming a product to my environment. It wasn't until

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<v Speaker 2>I went to high school that I started associating with

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<v Speaker 2>you know, game members, taggers or whatever. It became like

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<v Speaker 2>a norm for me. I got involved with tagging crews,

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<v Speaker 2>like graffited on walls, I got into fights, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm not going to portray myself as an angel.

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<v Speaker 1>But there's also if that's your environment, yeah, there is

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<v Speaker 1>a very real social aspect to it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, no.

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<v Speaker 1>You want friends, you want a group, you want a

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<v Speaker 1>sense of belonging.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>We did mention in the intro that the murder occurred

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<v Speaker 1>in the Westmont section of South LA and that it

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<v Speaker 1>was an area referred to as Death Alley for a reason.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, just paint a picture of what the environment

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<v Speaker 1>was like in two thousand and three.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I don't want to say it was a war zone,

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<v Speaker 2>but you had to know the streets in order to

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<v Speaker 2>know where to go and where not to go. At

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<v Speaker 2>what specific time and stuff like that, because it was bad.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it was bad enough for me to feel

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<v Speaker 2>the need to have a gun. For sure. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>true ghetto.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't the kind of place where people said stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like this never happens, No, And so that really takes

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<v Speaker 1>us up to the night that all of this happened.

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<v Speaker 1>But at that point, you're twenty, and are you a

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<v Speaker 1>new father or soon to be father at that point soon.

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<v Speaker 2>To be so, so eventually I moved to Long Beach.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, really Clint, my act up, had a really

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<v Speaker 2>good job, got married, planned our daughter. Like it was

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<v Speaker 2>just kind of like me creating that that picture of

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<v Speaker 2>a family and environment that I've always waned, and it

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<v Speaker 2>actually become in reality because I really kind of had

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<v Speaker 2>my stuff together and so things were falling in a line.

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<v Speaker 2>And even when they accused me of this crime, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I really didn't take it seriously because I guess you

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<v Speaker 2>can say I was naive. I've truly believed, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>literally believe that if you're innocent, you'll be fine. I

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<v Speaker 2>was wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no way to find an innocent man guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was naive. And then when it happened and

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<v Speaker 2>I realized how many other people it was. I was

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<v Speaker 2>dumbfound it. I was like, really says the system was

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<v Speaker 2>just amazingly flawed in understatement.

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<v Speaker 1>So that takes us, as I said, to the night

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<v Speaker 1>where all of this happened. And May tenth, twenty oh three,

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen year old named Jose Roblas and his family were

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<v Speaker 1>hosting a backyard barbecue at their home on one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and first Street, and around nine o'clock, he decides to

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<v Speaker 1>walk to the liquor store, but on the way there,

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<v Speaker 1>he ends up getting shot multiple times in what was

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<v Speaker 1>basically described as a drive by shooting. He ends up

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<v Speaker 1>dying of the gunshot wounds. Initially, the investigation focuses on

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<v Speaker 1>local gangs that are implicated in interviews with the victims brothers.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember any speculation or that was it? You

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<v Speaker 1>just heard a murder happened, and then suddenly you find

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<v Speaker 1>out you're the target.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's exactly how it laid out. I heard a murder,

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<v Speaker 2>like I didn't even know who this Chino guy was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I course heard of the name after the fact.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when I even when I heard that people

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<v Speaker 2>were assuming I was responsible, I still really didn't take

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<v Speaker 2>it seriously, like I just I just had a naive

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<v Speaker 2>believe like if you didn't do it, you'll you'll be fine.

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<v Speaker 1>And not only that, you had an alibi.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah I did.

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<v Speaker 1>You were in a Blockbuster video store that night. It's

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<v Speaker 1>your wife.

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<v Speaker 2>Since it was a Saturday, like on my Saturdays, which

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<v Speaker 2>is like typically my days off, like Saturdays and Sunday,

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<v Speaker 2>I usually do something. I usually either go to six Flags, Disneyland,

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<v Speaker 2>the movie theaters out with a bunch of friends. Those

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<v Speaker 2>just my social circles. And so fortunately, somewhat fortunately for me,

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<v Speaker 2>I was with my friends pretty much throughout the day.

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<v Speaker 2>Initially I was planning on going to movie theaters. I

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<v Speaker 2>ended up going to Blockbuster. You know, I'm with several

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<v Speaker 2>friends and a few family members, and it was just

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<v Speaker 2>it was just a regular day for us.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me the second that suddenly you realize that

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<v Speaker 1>you're the person being named.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I took it a little more seriously, I

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<v Speaker 2>was at work one day. I don't know how long

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<v Speaker 2>after the incident, it had to be within the first

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<v Speaker 2>week or two, you know, I'm not completely sure. Two

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<v Speaker 2>detectives came to my job and I asked us they

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<v Speaker 2>can speak with me. I was like, sure, why not?

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<v Speaker 2>And I knew what they were there for at that moment,

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<v Speaker 2>and but it was it's somewhat of a odd story.

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<v Speaker 2>So my supervisors were really cool with me. And I

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<v Speaker 2>seen the detectives walking in like towards our establishment. I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, look at two detectives, and I made

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<v Speaker 2>a little joke. I was like, Oh, they're here for

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<v Speaker 2>the black guy for South Centro. Turns out they were

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<v Speaker 2>Oh Lord. When we discovered they really were there for me,

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<v Speaker 2>he turned red and was dying. I mean he was

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<v Speaker 2>like crying. He was like, go to the back and talk.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh wow. So I went to the back

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<v Speaker 2>and spoke to him. I actually didn't feel uncomfortable speaking

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<v Speaker 2>to him, like I just still had that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, naive position, like you'll be fine. You didn't

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<v Speaker 2>do anything. So I told him as much as I

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<v Speaker 2>can remember, like hey, I was here, I was here.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was wearing this like I didn't remember

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<v Speaker 2>every little detail of the day because I had no

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<v Speaker 2>reason to remember every little detail of the day. So

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<v Speaker 2>they might have been some inconsistencies or whatever, but for

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<v Speaker 2>the most part, everything turned out to be accurate because

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<v Speaker 2>they somehow they I don't know if they investigated shortly after,

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<v Speaker 2>but they di covered everything I said was lining up.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I told them I was with this person,

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<v Speaker 2>or I went here and here and here, and.

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<v Speaker 3>You had receipts also.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't clean my car. Well, I didn't clean

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<v Speaker 2>my car every day, so I still had the little

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<v Speaker 2>receipt balled up like I'm under the seat, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, here's the receipt. Here you go, blah blah.

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<v Speaker 2>But the problem with well, it shouldn't have been a

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<v Speaker 2>problem at the time. But do you know what they

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<v Speaker 2>said in response of me having the receipts and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>my story lining up with others, They took the position

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<v Speaker 2>I learned this later on, like when I had got

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<v Speaker 2>access to my reports. They took the position that I

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<v Speaker 2>was prepared for them to show up. They just twisted

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<v Speaker 2>it as opposed to it simply been the truth, which

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<v Speaker 2>is why it's adding up.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the same time, their eyewitness accounts are morphing

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<v Speaker 1>and changing and suddenly boom, you come into focus. Even

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<v Speaker 1>though these eyewitness accounts were for people who were almost

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<v Speaker 1>a football field away from the van that passed by yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>did you was there anything that ever linked you to

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<v Speaker 1>what they described as a white van with brown paneling.

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<v Speaker 2>Nothing, never on the bait white man, never been in

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<v Speaker 2>a white band, anything like that.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it probably never go in a white van.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, traumatized. I mean it was so ridiculous. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>one witness went from saying it was two male Hispanics

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<v Speaker 2>and then name individuals that are Hispanic, and then after

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<v Speaker 2>having conversations with other people, was like, Okay, the driver's black.

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<v Speaker 2>The driver looked like this person. Then eventually years later

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<v Speaker 2>other driver was him. You know what I mean? It

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<v Speaker 2>was Yeah, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Loved that it was originally two Hispanic men, then two

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<v Speaker 1>black men, and then I'll exploit the difference one of beach.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Just crazy. Okay, So ten months after the shooting, actually

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<v Speaker 1>they reinterview one of the eyewitnesses and for the first

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<v Speaker 1>time now he names able Soto as the gunman and

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<v Speaker 1>then basically says that one of the victim's brothers said

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<v Speaker 1>that you were the driver. So who is he to

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<v Speaker 1>contradict what he said?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he took the position I have to go along

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<v Speaker 2>with what he said.

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<v Speaker 1>And when do they come back to you? Did they

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<v Speaker 1>bring you in for questioning before you're arrested?

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<v Speaker 2>No, they did not. They just charged me and I

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<v Speaker 2>was sent to county jail and fighting murder. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was paranoid actually because I knew. I was so

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<v Speaker 2>paranoid because they were charging me for murder. I knew

0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I was in this, and I knew that they had

0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.959
<v Speaker 2>lying witness they may have to have lying witnesses against me.

0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I was like, what could they be doing? So I

0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.800
<v Speaker 2>was fearful. I was like, Oh, what if they're trying

0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:49.440
<v Speaker 2>to frame me? What if they're trying to put a

0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.960
<v Speaker 2>murder weapon on me? My mind was going crazy. I

0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 2>was just thinking the worst, Like there's no way.

0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:55.600
<v Speaker 1>In hell you weren't wrong.

0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.679
<v Speaker 3>Wait, when was the light detector test? That was in between?

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.480
<v Speaker 2>That was when I was That was that was when

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I was out. Yeah, I was out. It was after

0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.160
<v Speaker 2>they first came to interview me at my job.

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 4>Okay, right, so after the job interview, before the v yes,

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.920
<v Speaker 4>and you went voluntarily to go take a light detect

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:15.320
<v Speaker 4>your test.

0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.160
<v Speaker 1>I did all things that make sense in the mind

0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.400
<v Speaker 1>of an innocent person. You know, why wouldn't you answer questions?

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.760
<v Speaker 1>Why wouldn't you go in if you're innocent, you have

0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.560
<v Speaker 1>nothing to hide, and then you realize that anything you do,

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.200
<v Speaker 1>anything you say, is going to be used against you.

0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.960
<v Speaker 1>So what was that light detector test? What were the results?

0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.400
<v Speaker 1>What did they claim were the results?

0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.880
<v Speaker 2>So we discovered this after the fact too, Like there's

0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a protocol they were supposed to follow, Like they're only

0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 2>supposed to interview for how long?

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 4>Just I don't remember, less than ten minutes or the

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 4>results aren't going to be inconclusive.

0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they interviewed me for like I don't really remember.

0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:56.840
<v Speaker 2>It was a while.

0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, before they hooked up the miss exactly. And we

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.200
<v Speaker 4>actually didn't get to see the video of the machine.

0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.000
<v Speaker 4>We got to see the hour and a half interview

0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.440
<v Speaker 4>leading up to hooking up the machine, and as soon

0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.400
<v Speaker 4>as they hook up the machine, the tape stops.

0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:12.680
<v Speaker 3>Which is interesting.

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:17.800
<v Speaker 4>Because the report says that you were deceptive, but it

0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 4>doesn't specify as to what, you know, what did he

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:21.960
<v Speaker 4>say that that?

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 3>And so I'm wondering, like what that could have been.

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you know, you have your own speculation as to

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:28.480
<v Speaker 4>what it could be.

0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do remember, like they asked me like impossible

0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 2>trickery questions, right, like they was like, did you have

0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.120
<v Speaker 2>anything whatsoever to do with the murder of Jose Roblez?

0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.920
<v Speaker 2>And I was right about to just answer no, but

0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.680
<v Speaker 2>he stopped me before I asked he no. He goes, uh,

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 2>before you say yes or no when I say anything whatsoever?

0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like this is how I remember, Like I mean,

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.360
<v Speaker 2>you're a driver, things got out of there, you're a shooter,

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.800
<v Speaker 2>you sent somebody, or you think you know who did it?

0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.560
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh shit, I think I may

0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.960
<v Speaker 2>know who did it, but I was will they will?

0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 2>And it be like, okay, I think this person you know?

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 2>And that kind of threw me way off.

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, and it sounds like the tape running out

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.400
<v Speaker 1>wasn't the only excuse. The word but jack assery with

0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 1>with tape issues because the surveillance tape at the Blockbuster

0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:24.120
<v Speaker 1>video is all scrambled when they try to use it

0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 1>in your defense, yeah, but yet miraculously fixed when you

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:31.920
<v Speaker 1>go back, yeah, to use it.

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about an investigator, detective investigator who has been

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 2>on a force for X amount of years prior to

0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 2>this case. We're talking about a prosecutor that's been a

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:47.760
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor for X amount of years before my case. Excuse

0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 2>my friends, but there's no way in hell that they

0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>do not know how to operate the proper system to

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.480
<v Speaker 2>see this video tape. Clearly no way, you know. So

0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 2>under the crowd control of the da at trial, they

0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 2>claimed they could not tell one time I arrived. They

0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.160
<v Speaker 2>claimed that once you play the tape it's all garbled

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that, because they played it in a

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.040
<v Speaker 2>regular VCR tape. Of course it's going to be all garble.

0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 2>You're planning in an inappropriate system. It was supposed to

0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 2>be in a system called the multiplexure. And me not

0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.800
<v Speaker 2>knowing everything about the law, I learned that fairly new

0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.800
<v Speaker 2>into the game of learning law. So they for sure knew.

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Leading up to the trial. How confident were you.

0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.160
<v Speaker 2>That's hard to say, because like, I was confident, but

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.120
<v Speaker 2>I was I was kind of worried at the same

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.440
<v Speaker 2>time because at the end of the day, like, I

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.800
<v Speaker 2>don't know, well, at the time, I didn't know what

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 2>they were going to try to present a trial, you know.

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I was still like, dang, what if they try to

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 2>frame me? What if they try to do this. I

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 2>just didn't know what they were going to do. But

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I was like, but I'm innocent. So if you know,

0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.600
<v Speaker 2>a decent attorney should be able to establish that, you know,

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm innocent, And so I kind of had

0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.240
<v Speaker 2>mixed emotions. You know, I knew the witnesses were going

0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 2>to be lying, but I just didn't know, Like I

0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.280
<v Speaker 2>felt like, I don't know. I had a mixed emotion.

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:15.040
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I'm innocing, I'm gonna get out. But

0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:16.920
<v Speaker 2>then I was like, ooh, I'm going through a jury

0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 2>because by the time I got to try. Mind you,

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I had been in the county jail for a few

0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.879
<v Speaker 2>years and I've seen things. I've seen people say they

0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.359
<v Speaker 2>were innocent get found guilty, and I was you know,

0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.840
<v Speaker 2>it kind of changed my thought process. And plus I

0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.040
<v Speaker 2>had to deal with the drama of being in county jail.

0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 2>So I just mentally I was all over the place.

0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.720
<v Speaker 1>In terms of who was supporting you in that courtroom.

0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 1>I was would assume that your wife, Evelyn was there.

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.879
<v Speaker 2>During I mean we were young, she was young. I'm

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:50.480
<v Speaker 2>not making excuses, I mean she was there, but you know,

0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:52.960
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the day, this case took a

0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.560
<v Speaker 2>toll on everybody, so it kind of it kind of

0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.159
<v Speaker 2>caused her to kind of. I mean, her being that

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.160
<v Speaker 2>age dealing with this type of stuff was just.

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:04.760
<v Speaker 3>She also had a new.

0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 2>As well and then trying to figure things out on

0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 2>her own out there. Because when I was out there,

0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.919
<v Speaker 2>like I was really a go getter, like like I

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.199
<v Speaker 2>believed in the idea, like if she didn't want to work,

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.359
<v Speaker 2>she didn't have to work. It was my responsibility to

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:23.160
<v Speaker 2>make sure I provided. But she was mature enough and

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.440
<v Speaker 2>and and loving enough. We're like, no, like, I feel

0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.919
<v Speaker 2>like there's a point where we might where we might struggle.

0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:30.919
<v Speaker 2>So I'm gonna get a part time job myself and

0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.239
<v Speaker 2>she got a part Like It's just we were just

0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.960
<v Speaker 2>in sync at the time. And uh, but again.

0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.520
<v Speaker 1>That's that's the ripple effect of the injustice and of

0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.400
<v Speaker 1>the cruelty as well, because it's not like you had

0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:46.880
<v Speaker 1>planned for something that's catastrophic to happen, but you're suddenly

0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.760
<v Speaker 1>ripped out of your life. Yeah, you're a new husband,

0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.800
<v Speaker 1>new father, and now your family is just left to

0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 1>fend for themselves basically exactly.

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.720
<v Speaker 2>So everything took a toll on her. We ended up

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:07.520
<v Speaker 2>breaking up, and you know, she she was she was

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>there and she wasn't you know, so.

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.159
<v Speaker 1>So take me back to the trial. As you're sitting

0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:19.679
<v Speaker 1>and you're watching it unfold, it must have been just

0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:22.160
<v Speaker 1>beyond disbelief.

0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.040
<v Speaker 2>It was, I mean, what made it really difficult? Like

0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.720
<v Speaker 2>when I was found guilty and I heard those words

0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.639
<v Speaker 2>like we did the jury find the defendant of Koma

0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.280
<v Speaker 2>guilty of first degree pre made it any murder? Like

0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm just froze and I kind of dropped my jaw,

0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:45.320
<v Speaker 2>like what just happened? And then it I don't know,

0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.800
<v Speaker 2>I just wasn't there. I wasn't there. Then when I

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.879
<v Speaker 2>had to go to the holding tank and call my

0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.919
<v Speaker 2>brother and whomever. I can't remember who I called, it

0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.880
<v Speaker 2>was worse when I had to hear myself tell other

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.119
<v Speaker 2>people I lost. I broke down in tears. Just just

0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.520
<v Speaker 2>talking about it just made it worse for me, Like

0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:08.320
<v Speaker 2>it was just too much.

0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, the word using the word lost, that's that's

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the first time I've honestly heard that. And you lost

0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot, yeah, in terms of your your life, But

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:29.160
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't just guilty. It was you lost years, two decades.

0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.119
<v Speaker 2>When I first lost my case, I was like, how

0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.480
<v Speaker 2>am I going to deal with this now? Because I

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.720
<v Speaker 2>knew the reality of this disappeal process and all this

0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:52.119
<v Speaker 2>other stuff that's years down the line. So now I'm like,

0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be in prison for some time now,

0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Like what do I do? You know? So I'm dealing

0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.360
<v Speaker 2>with the fears of that. And then the worst thing

0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.520
<v Speaker 2>for me was my daughter. You know, she was planned,

0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:05.920
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. I didn't want her to

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.160
<v Speaker 2>grow up not knowing me. That was like my worst fear,

0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, because my parents weren't together, Like my parents

0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.359
<v Speaker 2>weren't present, and I didn't want that to you know,

0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean my daughter to kind of entertain that same cycle.

0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:21.159
<v Speaker 3>Did she visit you.

0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:29.320
<v Speaker 2>Not? In the beginning, Like my then wife was dealing

0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.520
<v Speaker 2>with whatever she was dealing with it, so she didn't

0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 2>bring her. I was in her in her life somewhat,

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:39.639
<v Speaker 2>but then I was dealing with all this stuff with

0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.760
<v Speaker 2>being in prison, So I wasn't even as present as

0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.520
<v Speaker 2>I probably could have been as far as calling and

0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.280
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. I was just in a mentally in

0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.040
<v Speaker 2>a different place. But it got to the point too

0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:55.600
<v Speaker 2>where I started calling her every day, my daughter, like

0:21:55.960 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 2>actively being involved in her life, finding whatever strategic ways

0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I can, Yeah, I mean be present, whether it's like

0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:06.639
<v Speaker 2>getting in my stimulus checks, sending her half of my money,

0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.160
<v Speaker 2>sending her cards. You know, I got to the point

0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.439
<v Speaker 2>to where I'm self educating in the law, making a

0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.040
<v Speaker 2>little money, and then supporting my daughter and just really

0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 2>really stay active. And luckily for me, she grew up. No,

0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean luckily for me, she recognized me as father

0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:25.400
<v Speaker 2>and was comfortable with calling me dad.

0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.960
<v Speaker 1>And I've read that she became she became your purpose

0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.600
<v Speaker 1>and your motivation to stay strong.

0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what kept me going.

0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:42.439
<v Speaker 1>I think there is something really powerful about the fact

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:48.040
<v Speaker 1>that her age represents, you know, represented for that period

0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 1>of time, the amount of time that you had served.

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.720
<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, she's nineteen. I've been in prison nineteen years

0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.560
<v Speaker 2>because she was literally born when I was locked up.

0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.000
<v Speaker 1>That must have been just you know, there's the power

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.160
<v Speaker 1>passage of time, which I'm sure moves at a very

0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.920
<v Speaker 1>different pace when you're inside, but then seeing her grow

0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.600
<v Speaker 1>up is just a constant reminder of how much time

0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 1>had gone by.

0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, true, true. I mean like even when I talked

0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:17.800
<v Speaker 2>to her about like to my friends and while I

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:20.399
<v Speaker 2>was incarcerated, like the way I talk about her, I

0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't realize it until someone brought it up to me

0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.560
<v Speaker 2>like a few weeks ago, and Abel brought it up too,

0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, because I talked to him about my daughter,

0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.199
<v Speaker 2>and I talked to people about my daughter. She's like

0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:36.160
<v Speaker 2>three years old, but I could. I can't help myself, right,

0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:38.520
<v Speaker 2>And then when people meet her, they're like, oh shit,

0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:39.560
<v Speaker 2>she's an adult.

0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:45.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, she'll always be your baby. It doesn't change.

0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So there's that element of things there were.

0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.080
<v Speaker 4>There were two people that spoke at Joe Foma's parole

0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:56.679
<v Speaker 4>board hearing. One was his wife and one was his

0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:00.239
<v Speaker 4>wife's sister, and they said he did a better job

0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.760
<v Speaker 4>raising his daughter from prison than most men do on

0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:03.480
<v Speaker 4>the outside.

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:06.360
<v Speaker 3>And I saw that.

0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:08.639
<v Speaker 4>I mean I saw that right away when Jofama and

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:10.960
<v Speaker 4>I first started talking and he learned I was an educator,

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.320
<v Speaker 4>where we started talking about Joscelyn schooling and her goals

0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:15.880
<v Speaker 4>and everything like that.

0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.600
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I mean that was like one of my

0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:24.280
<v Speaker 2>one priorities, like be present, figure out a way to

0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 2>be involved in her life and let her know that

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm there, that I love her. So we talked, we talked,

0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:32.600
<v Speaker 2>we talked, we talked, gave her advice, you know, I mean,

0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:36.159
<v Speaker 2>she respected my input and I just showed her I

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.760
<v Speaker 2>was present that I cared, you know. I sent her pictures,

0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:41.479
<v Speaker 2>I sent her money, I sent her I sent people

0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:43.480
<v Speaker 2>to go buy her gifts. And when I didn't have it,

0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:45.560
<v Speaker 2>I called on some of my closest friends, Hey, my

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.120
<v Speaker 2>daughter's sick. Can you you know, I don't know what

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>the what it was, maybe uber no not uber uh,

0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 2>door dash or whatever. I was like, Hey, buy my

0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.600
<v Speaker 2>daughter some medicine, send it to her, and stuff like that.

0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.000
<v Speaker 2>So I just stayed present. Wow, and she felt my love.

0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:02.399
<v Speaker 4>And I remember you telling me about you would have

0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.000
<v Speaker 4>family visits with her and she would just come and

0:25:05.040 --> 0:25:05.879
<v Speaker 4>just snuggle with you.

0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that meant the world to me, Like it

0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:13.119
<v Speaker 2>made me feel like a father. Like that meant a

0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:13.600
<v Speaker 2>lot to me.

0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:19.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, there's an expression that prison either makes makes

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:24.560
<v Speaker 1>you better or makes you better. How did you navigate that?

0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, to be honest, there were times I was bitter.

0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:31.080
<v Speaker 2>There was times I was angry, There was the times.

0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:33.159
<v Speaker 2>There was times I wanted to give up. There was

0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:39.720
<v Speaker 2>times I to put I'll put it this way this case.

0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.359
<v Speaker 2>It took so many of my tears as ridiculous, and

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:45.560
<v Speaker 2>it got to the point where I said, it doesn't

0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:50.160
<v Speaker 2>deserve my cheers anymore. And you know, I just decided

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.560
<v Speaker 2>to fight and figure it out. So when I when

0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:58.359
<v Speaker 2>I came across obstacles, I just went in my own minds,

0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:00.480
<v Speaker 2>how do I deal with it? How do I around it?

0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:03.000
<v Speaker 2>How do I figure it out? And I just figured

0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.679
<v Speaker 2>it out. I started reading law books. Didn't understand what

0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:08.200
<v Speaker 2>the hell I was reading. It was foreign. But then

0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:11.040
<v Speaker 2>I got a law dictionary and when I came across

0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:13.440
<v Speaker 2>a word that I didn't understand, I read the word

0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:15.440
<v Speaker 2>and went back to the sentence. I said, oh, now

0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:17.520
<v Speaker 2>that makes sense, and moved on and kept going and

0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.840
<v Speaker 2>kept going and asked questions and just you know, watch

0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.440
<v Speaker 2>The Good Wife or you know, other last shows, and

0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:27.439
<v Speaker 2>just started picking up game. And slowly but surely I

0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:28.480
<v Speaker 2>started understanding.

0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:31.560
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, you didn't just understand it. You became

0:26:31.720 --> 0:26:37.719
<v Speaker 1>your own defense attorney, and you, acting as your own lawyer,

0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:43.840
<v Speaker 1>filed a federal petition for writ of habeas corpus and

0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:49.199
<v Speaker 1>you file that in twenty ten and you have to

0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:57.000
<v Speaker 1>wait five years and it's denied, I mean days, weeks, months,

0:26:57.240 --> 0:27:01.840
<v Speaker 1>years of waiting only to have it denied. What is

0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:03.640
<v Speaker 1>what did that do to you.

0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:07.440
<v Speaker 2>That was that was also like I had these moments

0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:09.399
<v Speaker 2>where it was like always the worst, like when I

0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:12.520
<v Speaker 2>got found guilty, when I found when my oppelart attorney

0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:14.800
<v Speaker 2>found the appeal, and I was confident, like, hey, they

0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:17.280
<v Speaker 2>got to see these errors. Then they denied me when

0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>I found my own paperwork, and then they deny it,

0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 2>and like those moments like they already stabbed me in

0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:24.639
<v Speaker 2>the heart, you know, that was just them adding the

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.000
<v Speaker 2>extra daggers to you know what I mean, my spine

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and everything like that, like when is it going to end?

0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Like when is somebody going to see this injustice? And

0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 2>it just felt like it was never gonna come, you

0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.359
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. I kept some level of faith,

0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:38.440
<v Speaker 2>but it's just.

0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:41.240
<v Speaker 1>It was just a lot how how And that's that's

0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:43.399
<v Speaker 1>I mean. I I don't mean to belabor the point,

0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:48.960
<v Speaker 1>but that's so much to handle. And and was was

0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:52.520
<v Speaker 1>there You've spoken about low points, but was there a

0:27:52.560 --> 0:27:56.280
<v Speaker 1>moment where you thought I can't do this anymore? And

0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:59.920
<v Speaker 1>and where did you find the strength to move forward?

0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:03.560
<v Speaker 2>So honestly, I mean, the main motivation was my daughter,

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Like if I give up, I'm giving up on her.

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:13.120
<v Speaker 1>So another year, five years, pass. Another five years go by,

0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:18.679
<v Speaker 1>and in twenty twenty, forces finally start to align on

0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:23.440
<v Speaker 1>your behalf. Enter Jessica Jacobs, a mother of four and

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:27.600
<v Speaker 1>a teacher from Topanga Canyon with a taste for binging

0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:33.480
<v Speaker 1>true crime on Netflix. Jessica, just tell me a little

0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.399
<v Speaker 1>bit about you and what led you to reach out

0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:37.600
<v Speaker 1>to Ellen Eggers.

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:40.400
<v Speaker 3>When I was watching the Netflix show.

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 4>I was watching a ton of Netflix because it was

0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:44.520
<v Speaker 4>when we were on the initial lockdown for COVID, and

0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:48.520
<v Speaker 4>I was just watching show after show and came across

0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:52.840
<v Speaker 4>this one that was talking about wrongful convictions, and this woman,

0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:55.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, Ellen Eggers, was so passionate that I could

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:59.560
<v Speaker 4>just feel her energy through the screen. And you know,

0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:01.160
<v Speaker 4>this is one of my out of the box things.

0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:03.000
<v Speaker 4>I'm sure a lot of people are compelled by what

0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 4>they see on TV, but I don't know that a

0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:08.320
<v Speaker 4>lot of people would push pause, Google her and call her,

0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:13.360
<v Speaker 4>which is what I did. And then thankfully she is

0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:16.920
<v Speaker 4>one of those type of people who would take the call.

0:29:17.080 --> 0:29:20.160
<v Speaker 4>And so in the beginning I was just helping her

0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 4>kind of with technology, you know, and then eventually she

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:26.280
<v Speaker 4>would have me. She taught me how to do summary

0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:28.520
<v Speaker 4>notes from transcripts, and so I would help her do that.

0:29:29.040 --> 0:29:31.320
<v Speaker 4>But then as we were talking about the cases that

0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:33.240
<v Speaker 4>we were working on, and we had worked on two

0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:37.200
<v Speaker 4>of them together, both ended it in exonerations. I would see

0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:39.120
<v Speaker 4>these little things. I'd be like, oh, but what about that?

0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:41.880
<v Speaker 4>But what about that? And you know, all these pieces,

0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:44.840
<v Speaker 4>and found that I was pretty good at detective work.

0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.520
<v Speaker 4>And so, you know, we would I went and talked

0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.840
<v Speaker 4>to witnesses, and I went and you know, met with

0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:54.560
<v Speaker 4>coroners and kind of dug around to find the things

0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 4>that aren't on the surface. And I guess she thought

0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:00.840
<v Speaker 4>I was pretty good at that. And so, and Joe

0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:04.000
<v Speaker 4>Fauma's brother reached out to her. She was like, well,

0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:06.240
<v Speaker 4>I can't take another case, but I've got this crazy

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:08.440
<v Speaker 4>lady in southern California.

0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:09.840
<v Speaker 3>I'll just hand it off to her.

0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:14.320
<v Speaker 4>And so, so when I started looking at Joe Fama's

0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:19.760
<v Speaker 4>case and seeing like, what a straightforward case of innocence.

0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:22.320
<v Speaker 4>It was more so than the other two that I

0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:26.040
<v Speaker 4>had looked at in my life.

0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:26.800
<v Speaker 3>I started saying, Okay, you got to take his case.

0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:27.680
<v Speaker 3>You got to take his case.

0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:31.520
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it was two years of us working before

0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:36.000
<v Speaker 4>Ellen even considered taking the case, and when she there

0:30:36.080 --> 0:30:38.640
<v Speaker 4>was one moment when she first considered it, I said

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:40.920
<v Speaker 4>to her, let's go talk to the brother of.

0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:42.640
<v Speaker 3>The victim, Jesse Roebliss.

0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 1>Now, before that, didn't you get the murder book.

0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:48.880
<v Speaker 4>I think it was before that I got the murder book,

0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:51.600
<v Speaker 4>because otherwise, if Ellen has already was already kind of

0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:54.040
<v Speaker 4>on board, she probably would have gone to court instead

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:56.200
<v Speaker 4>of me. So I think you're I think you're right

0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:59.520
<v Speaker 4>that that happened first. So Joe Fama, I think when

0:30:59.560 --> 0:31:01.160
<v Speaker 4>I won. One of the times I spoke to him

0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:04.280
<v Speaker 4>on the phone, he said, hey, I won this this

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:07.280
<v Speaker 4>appeal and the Superior Supreme Court, and I was like,

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.400
<v Speaker 4>what does that mean? And so he taught me all

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:12.880
<v Speaker 4>about like he filed this ten fifty four point nine

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:16.200
<v Speaker 4>discovery motion with the Superior Court, and then he appealed

0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:18.640
<v Speaker 4>to the second District and they denied him, and all

0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:21.080
<v Speaker 4>these terms were completely foreign to me. And then he

0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:24.200
<v Speaker 4>went to the Supreme Court and it overturned it and

0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:27.480
<v Speaker 4>remanded the lower court to give him his discovery. And

0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 4>so he taught me all that, And at the end

0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:32.480
<v Speaker 4>of his lecture to me teaching me law, he goes,

0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 4>but I have no way of getting it because I'm

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:38.360
<v Speaker 4>in here and I don't have a lawyer, and so

0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:43.880
<v Speaker 4>I started making calls and was pretty darn aggressive.

0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh man, I remember.

0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Those calls and you physically went to represent him.

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:49.920
<v Speaker 3>Well.

0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:53.920
<v Speaker 4>Eventually before that, I was making calls to the DA's

0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:58.080
<v Speaker 4>office regularly, like just pushing, pushing, pushing, like they were like, okay,

0:31:58.120 --> 0:32:00.880
<v Speaker 4>just let her in here, social shut up. And so

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:04.440
<v Speaker 4>I went in and looked through the whole DA file

0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:08.640
<v Speaker 4>in front of one of the prosecutors. And as I'm

0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:10.840
<v Speaker 4>looking at it, I'm taking pictures of things. And then

0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.280
<v Speaker 4>I go home and I and Jafama calls and I go, Okay,

0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:15.120
<v Speaker 4>here's all the things I found, and he's like okay,

0:32:15.160 --> 0:32:16.200
<v Speaker 4>but we're still missing this.

0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:21.080
<v Speaker 3>And so we went to court. Did you write a

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:23.719
<v Speaker 3>motion to get ables discovery or how did that? Did

0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:24.800
<v Speaker 3>we even get that court date?

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:28.440
<v Speaker 2>The court day was already established to basically for the

0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:30.800
<v Speaker 2>court just to check the status of how things were

0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:34.280
<v Speaker 2>going right. And then we were there and the just

0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:36.400
<v Speaker 2>was kind of giving me a hard time. I felt

0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:38.040
<v Speaker 2>that she gave me a hard time because she got

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:41.880
<v Speaker 2>overturned by an inmate, you know, pro per person that

0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:46.080
<v Speaker 2>basically told her she was wrong, and the higher course agreed,

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:48.760
<v Speaker 2>and then you shined in was like, well what about

0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:50.320
<v Speaker 2>this and that? Blah blah blah, and then she kind

0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 2>of softened up and got on board. Yeah.

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.760
<v Speaker 4>So the first time I went to court in person,

0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:59.520
<v Speaker 4>it was just to pick up some documents the CDs

0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:01.760
<v Speaker 4>I had to pick up, so that was that was

0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:03.600
<v Speaker 4>no big deal. It was kind of exciting being in

0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.320
<v Speaker 4>a courtroom. But the second time, where Jofama was actually

0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:11.040
<v Speaker 4>at the hearing via video, I also joined via video.

0:33:11.720 --> 0:33:13.720
<v Speaker 3>And in that hearing.

0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:16.480
<v Speaker 4>Is where I said to the judge, your honor, they've

0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:19.480
<v Speaker 4>given us all of the all that they have. However,

0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 4>we also know on Jofama's case, but they also have

0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:25.440
<v Speaker 4>Abel's case and they're refusing to give that to us,

0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:27.720
<v Speaker 4>and we think we should and so I argued that

0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 4>in front of the judge and she agreed and said, yeah,

0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:34.120
<v Speaker 4>give them as Able's murder book too, and that's where

0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:35.560
<v Speaker 4>we found new evidence.

0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:38.280
<v Speaker 3>But even still looking at Abele's.

0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.640
<v Speaker 4>Murder book and Jofama's murder book, looking at the cases

0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.720
<v Speaker 4>side by side, there were so many obvious things where

0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.640
<v Speaker 4>they could help one another, but there were still things missing.

0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:52.280
<v Speaker 4>And I remember pushing the DA to push the sheriff,

0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:54.120
<v Speaker 4>and then they weren't doing it well enough, and so

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:56.400
<v Speaker 4>I called the sheriff and I started pushing them. I

0:33:56.400 --> 0:33:59.600
<v Speaker 4>would call every single day to the It was a

0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:01.680
<v Speaker 4>Hamasi bureau that had the records, and I was like,

0:34:01.960 --> 0:34:04.360
<v Speaker 4>how's this request coming, how's this request coming? And finally

0:34:04.360 --> 0:34:06.720
<v Speaker 4>they wrote back in AFFI David saying we don't have

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 4>anything more, and I didn't Joe Fama and I didn't

0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:14.320
<v Speaker 4>believe that still, and so that's when I befriended the

0:34:14.360 --> 0:34:18.560
<v Speaker 4>original homicide detective and said, how can we get more?

0:34:18.600 --> 0:34:19.920
<v Speaker 3>I know there's more, and he.

0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:23.120
<v Speaker 4>Invited me to go with him to the homicide bureau,

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:24.359
<v Speaker 4>and sure enough, there was more.

0:34:29.960 --> 0:34:33.440
<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You

0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:35.719
<v Speaker 1>can listen to this and all the Lava for Good

0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:39.680
<v Speaker 1>podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to

0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Now, I have

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:57.279
<v Speaker 1>to just stop for a second and say that this

0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:01.880
<v Speaker 1>is one of my favorite aspects of this story and

0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:06.640
<v Speaker 1>of your friendship, and that is the power that getting

0:35:06.680 --> 0:35:11.000
<v Speaker 1>involved actually can have. You've said that lots of people

0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:13.839
<v Speaker 1>are moved when they watch or hear something, but very

0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:21.439
<v Speaker 1>few people insert themselves into the solution. Jo Fama, you

0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:25.520
<v Speaker 1>hear that there is this woman who's now cold calling

0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:30.879
<v Speaker 1>Ellen Eggers, and now she's in your life as well.

0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:33.560
<v Speaker 1>What did you initially make of Jessica?

0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:35.279
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what to makeup. I was like, I

0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:36.920
<v Speaker 2>don't know where this is going to go. But I

0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 2>will say this, like, and I think I can speak

0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:44.239
<v Speaker 2>for a similarly situated people. You know, when you have

0:35:44.360 --> 0:35:47.200
<v Speaker 2>an outside advocate, it gives you hope, you know, I mean,

0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:50.600
<v Speaker 2>it gives you that thought process. Okay, maybe something good

0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:52.719
<v Speaker 2>will come of this, because when we're doing it on

0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:56.320
<v Speaker 2>our own, it's just so so hard, you know, because

0:35:56.360 --> 0:35:59.920
<v Speaker 2>they don't take us seriously. We don't have foots on

0:36:00.160 --> 0:36:03.680
<v Speaker 2>ground to interview, go and pick up things and stuff

0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:07.280
<v Speaker 2>like that. So I would say for the most part,

0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:12.520
<v Speaker 2>her becoming a part of my world gave me hope.

0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Now, Jessica, you're a mama. For you run a school, Yeah,

0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:23.640
<v Speaker 1>it's you describe it for me because.

0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:27.759
<v Speaker 4>Because okay, I guess I run an educational program that

0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:32.279
<v Speaker 4>is a hybrid of unschooling and early college. And the

0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:36.200
<v Speaker 4>unschooling portion is where the learners learn what they want,

0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:38.000
<v Speaker 4>when they want, how they want, and if they want

0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:40.680
<v Speaker 4>to patient a lot of them at the pace they want,

0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:42.640
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of them have decided that they want

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:45.440
<v Speaker 4>to learn about the law because they were so inspired

0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:48.160
<v Speaker 4>by you know, I would say, oh, you guys, here's

0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:49.960
<v Speaker 4>the latest development. Or I'd be in the middle of

0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:52.719
<v Speaker 4>having a conversation with a student and Jofama would call

0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:55.400
<v Speaker 4>and I'd have to answer because I can't call him back,

0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:57.479
<v Speaker 4>and so then I'd put him on speaker and he'd

0:36:57.480 --> 0:36:59.239
<v Speaker 4>be talking to the students. And so a lot of

0:36:59.280 --> 0:37:03.160
<v Speaker 4>them their unschooling became working on the cases, and some

0:37:03.200 --> 0:37:06.000
<v Speaker 4>of them have taken it quite far. In fact, one

0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:08.960
<v Speaker 4>of them, two of them together started a nonprofit organization

0:37:09.160 --> 0:37:12.880
<v Speaker 4>now and they're working with Jofauma and getting other people

0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:13.440
<v Speaker 4>out of prison.

0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:16.400
<v Speaker 1>We will link with that at the end of the

0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:18.840
<v Speaker 1>episode as well, because I was on that site yesterday.

0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:21.839
<v Speaker 1>It's pretty damn impressive. But my point is also that

0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:27.160
<v Speaker 1>you had a fairly full plate in terms of so

0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:31.960
<v Speaker 1>but where where did you get that initiative that I'm

0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:34.759
<v Speaker 1>gonna I'm going to spend a lot of my time

0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:38.480
<v Speaker 1>and effort and focus helping an absolute stranger.

0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:44.960
<v Speaker 3>Hm, I think, hmm, that's a great question. I was.

0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:48.080
<v Speaker 4>I think I was bored during the pandemic because I

0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:51.520
<v Speaker 4>didn't have students coming in person as often. They still

0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:54.560
<v Speaker 4>did occasionally, but not as often. So I think I

0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:58.840
<v Speaker 4>had the pandemic opened up the door for my first

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.959
<v Speaker 4>conversation with Ellen, and I'm learning more, even more now

0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:04.759
<v Speaker 4>that I've been involved in this world, is how many

0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:09.520
<v Speaker 4>innocent people are stuck behind bars without any outside advocate,

0:38:09.600 --> 0:38:10.759
<v Speaker 4>without any attorney.

0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:14.040
<v Speaker 3>And if I have the ability to do it, it

0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:14.720
<v Speaker 3>would be.

0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:18.000
<v Speaker 4>Just dishonorable for me to not do it, I guess,

0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:20.920
<v Speaker 4>And so I've made time and create brought it in

0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:23.600
<v Speaker 4>so it's a part of my program so that that

0:38:23.800 --> 0:38:27.760
<v Speaker 4>you know, that makes time, and you know, my family

0:38:27.760 --> 0:38:30.760
<v Speaker 4>members help, and the students help, and then even the students'

0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:33.359
<v Speaker 4>parents want to help. And I feel like the more

0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:36.040
<v Speaker 4>we can tell people that you don't have to be

0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:40.160
<v Speaker 4>a lawyer to help somebody, the more we can help people,

0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.279
<v Speaker 4>and not just incarcerated people. But that's kind of where

0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:45.400
<v Speaker 4>a focus is because that just seems to be like

0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:49.840
<v Speaker 4>the epitome of what's wrong with our world in general

0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.640
<v Speaker 4>is like we've got this system to punish people who

0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:55.600
<v Speaker 4>do something wrong, which I have my disagreements with in

0:38:55.640 --> 0:38:58.120
<v Speaker 4>and of itself, but then to put somebody who didn't

0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:01.160
<v Speaker 4>do anything wrong into that situation and not let them

0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:04.680
<v Speaker 4>have an avenue to undo it is just crazy making.

0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:06.480
<v Speaker 4>So I could, I wouldn't be able to stop if

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:07.560
<v Speaker 4>I if I wanted to.

0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 3>Ellen Eggers is the same way.

0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:12.480
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think every single I would say, every

0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:14.680
<v Speaker 4>other conversation that I had with her over the course

0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:17.080
<v Speaker 4>of course of four years, she said, I'm not doing

0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:17.600
<v Speaker 4>this anymore.

0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:19.880
<v Speaker 3>I can't take another case. This is too much work.

0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:23.879
<v Speaker 3>And then she's got this later. Yeah, yeah, exactly, she can't.

0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:24.359
<v Speaker 3>She can't.

0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.799
<v Speaker 1>So we talked about clearing the hurdle of getting the

0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:31.040
<v Speaker 1>murder books, and once you get to see Abel and

0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Jafama's side by side, things become very clear. But talk

0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:38.680
<v Speaker 1>to me about getting the witness to recant, because that's

0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:44.160
<v Speaker 1>fascinating and something that neither you or Ellen Eggers thought

0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:45.200
<v Speaker 1>would happen the way it did.

0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:49.480
<v Speaker 4>I thought it was going to happen that way, but

0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:53.680
<v Speaker 4>that was just in my my naivety. I had no

0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:55.840
<v Speaker 4>reason to think that I shouldn't have thought that, but

0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:57.879
<v Speaker 4>I did and so I thought, well, it can't hurt

0:39:57.880 --> 0:40:00.560
<v Speaker 4>to ask him, And so I asked Ellen if she

0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:02.560
<v Speaker 4>would go with me because I couldn't go into a

0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:06.759
<v Speaker 4>prison on my own. And she reluctantly agreed, and I

0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:07.680
<v Speaker 4>kind of just teased her.

0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:09.680
<v Speaker 3>I was like, it'll be a girl's trip, you know.

0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:13.280
<v Speaker 3>And we talked the whole.

0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:14.879
<v Speaker 4>Way about you know, because it's a long drive, five

0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:16.880
<v Speaker 4>hour drive each way. She's like, this is such a

0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:20.759
<v Speaker 4>waste of time. This is ridiculous. And we walk in

0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:27.160
<v Speaker 4>and we told Jesse who we were and he didn't

0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:29.360
<v Speaker 4>even like look at us. He just looked at the table,

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:32.480
<v Speaker 4>saw a piece of paper, grabbed a pen and wrote

0:40:32.520 --> 0:40:36.480
<v Speaker 4>down it wasn't Jofauma and handed over the piece of paper.

0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:39.640
<v Speaker 4>And I looked at Ellen and I was like, told ye.

0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.680
<v Speaker 4>But then we continued interviewing him and we got a

0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:46.120
<v Speaker 4>lot of information that ended up helping with the case.

0:40:47.120 --> 0:40:50.480
<v Speaker 1>So that piece of paper ended up being well worth

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:57.279
<v Speaker 1>the five hour trip each way. Yes, because in January

0:40:57.320 --> 0:40:59.920
<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty three, Ellen Eggers presented a claim of

0:41:00.040 --> 0:41:03.279
<v Speaker 1>innocence on behalf of Coleman and Soto to the Los

0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Angeles County District Attorney's Conviction Integrity Unit, and luckily you

0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:17.040
<v Speaker 1>had a progressive and good person in position of power

0:41:17.480 --> 0:41:24.279
<v Speaker 1>there and when they did not take immediate action to

0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:29.239
<v Speaker 1>investigate the case, she asked the District Attorney's Habeas Litigation Unit,

0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:31.880
<v Speaker 1>which is where the person is to consider the evidence,

0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:36.160
<v Speaker 1>and after doing so, November of twenty twenty three, Eggers

0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:38.640
<v Speaker 1>was about to file a state petition for a writ

0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:41.600
<v Speaker 1>of habeas corpus. The Habeas Unit agreed to prepare a

0:41:41.680 --> 0:41:45.600
<v Speaker 1>joint petition for a writ of habeas corpus for both cases,

0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:49.280
<v Speaker 1>beginning first with the Soto case, and on January third,

0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:56.400
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four, Jofama Coleman was released from prison. What

0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:57.640
<v Speaker 1>did that mean to both of you?

0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:00.480
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't be there the day he was least because

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:03.480
<v Speaker 4>I was traveling, And I remember just being so happy

0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:04.440
<v Speaker 4>to be able to touch you.

0:42:04.520 --> 0:42:07.520
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, oh, you're real, I can actually I can

0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:08.040
<v Speaker 3>touch you.

0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:15.480
<v Speaker 1>So you didn't even meet physically until after Jofama was released, right,

0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:20.120
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. But you very much knew one another at

0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:20.920
<v Speaker 1>that point.

0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:22.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, very much.

0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:27.680
<v Speaker 4>So, Yes, we ended up in our you know, I

0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:30.440
<v Speaker 4>was talking to Jofama so much, mostly via the tablet,

0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:32.960
<v Speaker 4>but on the phone too, that when I'd have problems

0:42:33.000 --> 0:42:34.600
<v Speaker 4>in my life, I'd be like, oh good Joe, Fama,

0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:35.680
<v Speaker 4>let me tell him all about it.

0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:39.160
<v Speaker 3>So he ended up being a confidant for me too.

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:42.640
<v Speaker 1>And then on February twenty seventh, twenty twenty four, the

0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:48.600
<v Speaker 1>Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge William Ryan granted Coleman's

0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:55.320
<v Speaker 1>joint habeas petition for both you and able Soto, vacating

0:42:55.680 --> 0:43:01.600
<v Speaker 1>your convictions, dismissing the charges and declaring you actually innocent.

0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.359
<v Speaker 1>That must have been like a whole nother day of

0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:07.480
<v Speaker 1>freedom on many different levels.

0:43:09.120 --> 0:43:14.160
<v Speaker 2>It was, you know, the justice sign with the statue,

0:43:14.200 --> 0:43:16.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, the justice sign with the little you know,

0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:20.400
<v Speaker 2>when he when he declared me innocent, I was like, Okay,

0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:23.880
<v Speaker 2>now that justice size has some weight, you know, because before,

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:26.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, I used to use poetic words like when

0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:28.440
<v Speaker 2>I write to certain people, and I was like, if

0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Justice was the person it would be frowning upon this situation.

0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Like Justice was smiling at that day because you know,

0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:38.560
<v Speaker 2>justice isn't what people perceive it to be. So I

0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:41.280
<v Speaker 2>felt a glimpse of justice in that moment.

0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:44.680
<v Speaker 1>What is your life like today?

0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Still a bit overwhelming? It's a big adjustment. Like I'm

0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:56.839
<v Speaker 2>not gonna basically fake the phone and act like it's

0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:59.680
<v Speaker 2>peaches and creams. It's still an adjustment. I mean I

0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:04.480
<v Speaker 2>was I've been away from civilization for you know, nineteen years,

0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:07.279
<v Speaker 2>and it's like this is a lot to adjust to.

0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I actually dealt with some anxiety when I

0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:12.080
<v Speaker 2>first got out. But I'm getting better and it's a

0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:15.000
<v Speaker 2>huge adjustment. It's going to be a process for sure,

0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:16.480
<v Speaker 2>but I'm enjoying every moment.

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:18.840
<v Speaker 1>And how is your daughter?

0:44:19.320 --> 0:44:21.839
<v Speaker 2>She is great. I mean I'm even dealing with the health.

0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:27.640
<v Speaker 2>She loves me to death. But you know, when you

0:44:27.680 --> 0:44:30.040
<v Speaker 2>have this person wanting your attention and this person wanting

0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:32.520
<v Speaker 2>your attention and this person wanted to hang, guys like

0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:34.440
<v Speaker 2>you got to create that balance, you know, and make

0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:39.360
<v Speaker 2>them all feel appreciated. So I'm juggling that. We have

0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:41.759
<v Speaker 2>our ups and downs sometimes, but for the most part,

0:44:42.200 --> 0:44:42.960
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty good.

0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:51.040
<v Speaker 1>What what does your friendship mean to both of you?

0:44:51.840 --> 0:44:56.040
<v Speaker 1>And what you admire most about the other?

0:44:57.560 --> 0:45:01.320
<v Speaker 4>You know, I think I have a son who's exactly

0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:05.640
<v Speaker 4>the same age as Jofama's daughter, and so having that

0:45:06.320 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 4>common thread but knowing how different it was that I

0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:15.200
<v Speaker 4>got to actually raise my son. I'd say what I

0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:19.440
<v Speaker 4>admire most about him, Gosh, there's so many things. I

0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.120
<v Speaker 4>definitely admire his role as a father, but then seeing

0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:28.120
<v Speaker 4>him on the outside navigating everything he just described, watching

0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:31.959
<v Speaker 4>him learn, like he's an amazing learner. And then I'd say,

0:45:32.040 --> 0:45:36.560
<v Speaker 4>probably the biggest, biggest thing I'm impressed with is his

0:45:36.640 --> 0:45:40.880
<v Speaker 4>commitment to justice. And you know, I remember him telling

0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:42.800
<v Speaker 4>me like he wanted to be a lawyer, and I

0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:45.600
<v Speaker 4>would tell other people and they're like, Jess, come on,

0:45:45.719 --> 0:45:47.239
<v Speaker 4>he's going to get out and he's going to want

0:45:47.239 --> 0:45:48.840
<v Speaker 4>to live his life. He's not going to want to

0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:51.839
<v Speaker 4>focus on the justice system after and I said, okay,

0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:54.839
<v Speaker 4>you're right. And I remember telling him like, don't keep

0:45:54.840 --> 0:45:57.040
<v Speaker 4>telling me you want to go to school and be

0:45:57.080 --> 0:45:59.200
<v Speaker 4>a lawyer if you really don't, like, you don't have

0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:01.440
<v Speaker 4>to do that. He's like, no, I really want to.

0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:05.400
<v Speaker 4>And then sure enough, you know, he's hobnobin with all

0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:08.719
<v Speaker 4>the innocent attorneys and mentoring these teenagers who are going

0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:12.200
<v Speaker 4>to law school and getting a's in his classes, and

0:46:12.719 --> 0:46:15.120
<v Speaker 4>you know, so that's that's super impressive. He's an amazing

0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:17.000
<v Speaker 4>role model for his own kids.

0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:18.200
<v Speaker 3>But also everybody else is.

0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:23.040
<v Speaker 1>Now You're you're on the hot seat, sir. What is

0:46:23.080 --> 0:46:26.080
<v Speaker 1>your friendship with Jessica mean to you? And what do

0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:27.439
<v Speaker 1>you most admire about her?

0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:29.719
<v Speaker 2>It means everything. I mean when I see her, I

0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:33.120
<v Speaker 2>see my own freedom. You know, She's really tenacious. That's

0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:36.560
<v Speaker 2>what I admire most about her and her her way

0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:40.239
<v Speaker 2>of thinking. Her out of the box thinking is very

0:46:40.239 --> 0:46:43.960
<v Speaker 2>effective on many fronts. So overall, that's what I can say.

0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:45.680
<v Speaker 2>I admire both most about her.

0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:50.640
<v Speaker 1>You know, you've mentioned that fighting injustice is a shared

0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:55.239
<v Speaker 1>passion for both of you, and I completely agree with you,

0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:58.319
<v Speaker 1>Jessica when you say, once you see it, you can't

0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:03.520
<v Speaker 1>unsee it, and it's your more obligation to fight for

0:47:04.719 --> 0:47:09.440
<v Speaker 1>what's fair. You know, Jafama, I read a quote from you,

0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:14.160
<v Speaker 1>and I think I actually pulled it off of petition

0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:17.799
<v Speaker 1>that one of your family members started for you. But

0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.799
<v Speaker 1>you said that I'm a black male who grew up

0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.320
<v Speaker 1>in a single parent home with no wealth or platform.

0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:27.839
<v Speaker 1>As such, the wrongs I suffer are easily swept under the.

0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:33.040
<v Speaker 2>Rug, exactly, And that's that's why these situations are are

0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:38.040
<v Speaker 2>are too rare, you know, because there are other many,

0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:43.879
<v Speaker 2>other Blacks and Mexicans that are in prison for crimes

0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:47.080
<v Speaker 2>they did not commit, or you know, even if if

0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:49.919
<v Speaker 2>they were somehow involved in the crime, they didn't get

0:47:50.080 --> 0:47:53.160
<v Speaker 2>justice in a sense of fair sentencing, you know what

0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, compared to their other people. So it's like

0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:02.080
<v Speaker 2>the system is just as minorities different. I feel.

0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.520
<v Speaker 1>Is that part of what drives you, if not entirely

0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:09.160
<v Speaker 1>what drives you and your desire to be.

0:48:09.000 --> 0:48:13.680
<v Speaker 2>A lawyer, Yeah, it actually is. But also because like

0:48:16.120 --> 0:48:20.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm also somewhat of a I guess you can say

0:48:20.440 --> 0:48:24.399
<v Speaker 2>self critical at times, but after going what going through

0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:26.360
<v Speaker 2>what I've gone through, I kind of actually believe in

0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:28.000
<v Speaker 2>my abilities to become an attorney.

0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:32.440
<v Speaker 1>You're both incredibly inspiring. I really appreciate the time you

0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:33.239
<v Speaker 1>took with us.

0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:35.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you appreciating here, Thank you.

0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:53.280
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:56.719
<v Speaker 1>Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

0:48:56.760 --> 0:48:59.640
<v Speaker 1>links in the episode description to see how you can help.

0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:04.000
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,

0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:07.840
<v Speaker 1>and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea

0:49:08.280 --> 0:49:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,

0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:16.000
<v Speaker 1>and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer

0:49:16.120 --> 0:49:20.399
<v Speaker 1>is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Biel, research by

0:49:20.400 --> 0:49:24.640
<v Speaker 1>Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with

0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:28.560
<v Speaker 1>additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by

0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.720
<v Speaker 1>Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social

0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:35.480
<v Speaker 1>media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:38.640
<v Speaker 1>You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren

0:49:38.680 --> 0:49:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:45.879
<v Speaker 1>Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one