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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

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Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,

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Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like

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Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it

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Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to

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Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. On May tenth, two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: a sixteen year old was shot and killed in the

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Speaker 1: Westmont section of South la An area so notorious it

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Speaker 1: was known as death Alley. One of the victim's brothers

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Speaker 1: identified twenty year old Jafama Coleman as the driver of

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Speaker 1: the van used in the shooting and fifteen year old

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Speaker 1: Able Soto as the gunman. Due to faulty eyewitness testimony

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Speaker 1: and inconsistencies in photo identification, Jaffama was convicted of first

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Speaker 1: degree murder and sentenced to twenty five years to life

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Speaker 1: in prison, even though no physical evidence ever linked him

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Speaker 1: to the murder, and Able Soto was sentenced to seventy

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Speaker 1: two years to life. While incarcerated, Coleman would teach himself

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Speaker 1: the law, arguing his case all the way to the

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Speaker 1: California Supreme Court, before an unlikely duo joined in to

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Speaker 1: assist his efforts, the now undeniably legendary defense attorney Ellen

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Speaker 1: Eggers and a true crime obsessed teacher from Topanga Canyon

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Speaker 1: named Jessica Jacobs. Once these three joined forces, they became

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Speaker 1: a legal force of nature, and as of this year,

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Speaker 1: after serving nineteen years for a crime he did not commit,

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Speaker 1: Jeffama Coleman is now a freeman. Today I am joined

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Speaker 1: by JEFFA Ma Coleman and Jessica Jacobs to discuss their

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Speaker 1: very real friendship and shared passion to fight in justice.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful conviction, both of you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so Jafama. Let's just start in the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: before any of this happened. What was your childhood and

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Speaker 1: your upbringing?

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Speaker 2: Like, my parents split when I was I can't even

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Speaker 2: remember what age, but maybe I was around four years

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Speaker 2: old or something like that, six, but I remember it

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Speaker 2: for sure. We moved to Lynnwood with my grandparents and

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Speaker 2: that that environment was a lot better. No, I had

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Speaker 2: some a lot of good moments, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I managed to become a little entrepreneur when I was

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Speaker 2: a kid, I used to go around in the neighborhood

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Speaker 2: selling candy and are going around in the neighborhood cutting

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Speaker 2: people's grass and just to make extra money to buy

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Speaker 2: like toys, nice clothes, and you know, things that I

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Speaker 2: personally wanted.

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Speaker 1: Did you have ambitions for the future that you can

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Speaker 1: think looking back?

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Speaker 2: No. As I got older and became a teen, I

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Speaker 2: did you know, I've always wanted to own my own business,

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Speaker 2: for sure. I think that stem from my childhood of

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Speaker 2: doing my own thing, you know, cutting grass, walking the

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Speaker 2: streets of South Central up and down Crenshaw, selling CDs

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Speaker 2: and incense, And I just kind of had a little

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Speaker 2: entrepreneurial type of mentality. So ultimately I got a legit

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Speaker 2: job at Winners, so became a manager you know, when

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Speaker 2: I was like seventeen or eighteen. Then started working at

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Speaker 2: United Rentos as a yard guy, but worked my way

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Speaker 2: up into the office, became a sales coordinator and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So I mean you had drive, Yeah, yeah, yeah, from

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Speaker 1: a very early age.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did.

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Speaker 1: So by the time this had unfolded. Had you had

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Speaker 1: any kind of run ins with the law?

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Speaker 2: I mean I have. I mean, so when I was

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Speaker 2: a kid when we were living and live where we

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Speaker 2: eventually moved to South Central, and that's when things started

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Speaker 2: to take a turn. Culture there was different, the environment

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Speaker 2: was different, and you know, for period I managed to

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Speaker 2: avoid becoming a product to my environment. It wasn't until

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Speaker 2: I went to high school that I started associating with

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Speaker 2: you know, game members, taggers or whatever. It became like

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Speaker 2: a norm for me. I got involved with tagging crews,

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Speaker 2: like graffited on walls, I got into fights, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not going to portray myself as an angel.

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Speaker 1: But there's also if that's your environment, yeah, there is

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Speaker 1: a very real social aspect to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, no.

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Speaker 1: You want friends, you want a group, you want a

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Speaker 1: sense of belonging.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: We did mention in the intro that the murder occurred

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Speaker 1: in the Westmont section of South LA and that it

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Speaker 1: was an area referred to as Death Alley for a reason.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, just paint a picture of what the environment

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Speaker 1: was like in two thousand and three.

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Speaker 2: Like I don't want to say it was a war zone,

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Speaker 2: but you had to know the streets in order to

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Speaker 2: know where to go and where not to go. At

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Speaker 2: what specific time and stuff like that, because it was bad.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was bad enough for me to feel

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Speaker 2: the need to have a gun. For sure. It's a

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Speaker 2: true ghetto.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the kind of place where people said stuff

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Speaker 1: like this never happens, No, And so that really takes

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Speaker 1: us up to the night that all of this happened.

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Speaker 1: But at that point, you're twenty, and are you a

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Speaker 1: new father or soon to be father at that point soon.

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Speaker 2: To be so, so eventually I moved to Long Beach.

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Speaker 2: You know, really Clint, my act up, had a really

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Speaker 2: good job, got married, planned our daughter. Like it was

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Speaker 2: just kind of like me creating that that picture of

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Speaker 2: a family and environment that I've always waned, and it

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Speaker 2: actually become in reality because I really kind of had

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Speaker 2: my stuff together and so things were falling in a line.

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Speaker 2: And even when they accused me of this crime, you know,

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Speaker 2: I really didn't take it seriously because I guess you

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Speaker 2: can say I was naive. I've truly believed, I mean

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Speaker 2: literally believe that if you're innocent, you'll be fine. I

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Speaker 2: was wrong.

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Speaker 1: There's no way to find an innocent man guilty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was naive. And then when it happened and

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Speaker 2: I realized how many other people it was. I was

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Speaker 2: dumbfound it. I was like, really says the system was

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Speaker 2: just amazingly flawed in understatement.

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Speaker 1: So that takes us, as I said, to the night

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Speaker 1: where all of this happened. And May tenth, twenty oh three,

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old named Jose Roblas and his family were

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Speaker 1: hosting a backyard barbecue at their home on one hundred

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Speaker 1: and first Street, and around nine o'clock, he decides to

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Speaker 1: walk to the liquor store, but on the way there,

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Speaker 1: he ends up getting shot multiple times in what was

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Speaker 1: basically described as a drive by shooting. He ends up

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Speaker 1: dying of the gunshot wounds. Initially, the investigation focuses on

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Speaker 1: local gangs that are implicated in interviews with the victims brothers.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember any speculation or that was it? You

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Speaker 1: just heard a murder happened, and then suddenly you find

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Speaker 1: out you're the target.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly how it laid out. I heard a murder,

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Speaker 2: like I didn't even know who this Chino guy was,

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Speaker 2: you know, I course heard of the name after the fact.

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Speaker 2: And then when I even when I heard that people

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Speaker 2: were assuming I was responsible, I still really didn't take

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Speaker 2: it seriously, like I just I just had a naive

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Speaker 2: believe like if you didn't do it, you'll you'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: And not only that, you had an alibi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah I did.

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Speaker 1: You were in a Blockbuster video store that night. It's

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Speaker 1: your wife.

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Speaker 2: Since it was a Saturday, like on my Saturdays, which

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Speaker 2: is like typically my days off, like Saturdays and Sunday,

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Speaker 2: I usually do something. I usually either go to six Flags, Disneyland,

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Speaker 2: the movie theaters out with a bunch of friends. Those

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Speaker 2: just my social circles. And so fortunately, somewhat fortunately for me,

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Speaker 2: I was with my friends pretty much throughout the day.

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Speaker 2: Initially I was planning on going to movie theaters. I

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Speaker 2: ended up going to Blockbuster. You know, I'm with several

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Speaker 2: friends and a few family members, and it was just

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Speaker 2: it was just a regular day for us.

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Speaker 1: So tell me the second that suddenly you realize that

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Speaker 1: you're the person being named.

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Speaker 2: So when I took it a little more seriously, I

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Speaker 2: was at work one day. I don't know how long

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Speaker 2: after the incident, it had to be within the first

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Speaker 2: week or two, you know, I'm not completely sure. Two

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Speaker 2: detectives came to my job and I asked us they

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Speaker 2: can speak with me. I was like, sure, why not?

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Speaker 2: And I knew what they were there for at that moment,

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Speaker 2: and but it was it's somewhat of a odd story.

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Speaker 2: So my supervisors were really cool with me. And I

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Speaker 2: seen the detectives walking in like towards our establishment. I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, look at two detectives, and I made

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Speaker 2: a little joke. I was like, Oh, they're here for

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Speaker 2: the black guy for South Centro. Turns out they were

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Speaker 2: Oh Lord. When we discovered they really were there for me,

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Speaker 2: he turned red and was dying. I mean he was

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Speaker 2: like crying. He was like, go to the back and talk.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh wow. So I went to the back

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Speaker 2: and spoke to him. I actually didn't feel uncomfortable speaking

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Speaker 2: to him, like I just still had that, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, naive position, like you'll be fine. You didn't

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Speaker 2: do anything. So I told him as much as I

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Speaker 2: can remember, like hey, I was here, I was here.

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Speaker 2: I think I was wearing this like I didn't remember

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Speaker 2: every little detail of the day because I had no

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Speaker 2: reason to remember every little detail of the day. So

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Speaker 2: they might have been some inconsistencies or whatever, but for

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Speaker 2: the most part, everything turned out to be accurate because

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Speaker 2: they somehow they I don't know if they investigated shortly after,

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Speaker 2: but they di covered everything I said was lining up.

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Speaker 2: You know, I told them I was with this person,

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Speaker 2: or I went here and here and here, and.

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Speaker 3: You had receipts also.

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Speaker 2: So I don't clean my car. Well, I didn't clean

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Speaker 2: my car every day, so I still had the little

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Speaker 2: receipt balled up like I'm under the seat, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, here's the receipt. Here you go, blah blah.

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Speaker 2: But the problem with well, it shouldn't have been a

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Speaker 2: problem at the time. But do you know what they

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Speaker 2: said in response of me having the receipts and you know,

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Speaker 2: my story lining up with others, They took the position

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Speaker 2: I learned this later on, like when I had got

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Speaker 2: access to my reports. They took the position that I

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Speaker 2: was prepared for them to show up. They just twisted

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Speaker 2: it as opposed to it simply been the truth, which

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Speaker 2: is why it's adding up.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, their eyewitness accounts are morphing

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Speaker 1: and changing and suddenly boom, you come into focus. Even

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Speaker 1: though these eyewitness accounts were for people who were almost

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Speaker 1: a football field away from the van that passed by yeah,

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Speaker 1: did you was there anything that ever linked you to

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Speaker 1: what they described as a white van with brown paneling.

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Speaker 2: Nothing, never on the bait white man, never been in

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Speaker 2: a white band, anything like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean it probably never go in a white van.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, traumatized. I mean it was so ridiculous. I mean,

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Speaker 2: one witness went from saying it was two male Hispanics

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Speaker 2: and then name individuals that are Hispanic, and then after

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Speaker 2: having conversations with other people, was like, Okay, the driver's black.

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Speaker 2: The driver looked like this person. Then eventually years later

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Speaker 2: other driver was him. You know what I mean? It

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Speaker 2: was Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Loved that it was originally two Hispanic men, then two

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Speaker 1: black men, and then I'll exploit the difference one of beach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: Just crazy. Okay, So ten months after the shooting, actually

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Speaker 1: they reinterview one of the eyewitnesses and for the first

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Speaker 1: time now he names able Soto as the gunman and

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Speaker 1: then basically says that one of the victim's brothers said

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Speaker 1: that you were the driver. So who is he to

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Speaker 1: contradict what he said?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he took the position I have to go along

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Speaker 2: with what he said.

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Speaker 1: And when do they come back to you? Did they

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Speaker 1: bring you in for questioning before you're arrested?

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Speaker 2: No, they did not. They just charged me and I

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Speaker 2: was sent to county jail and fighting murder. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I was paranoid actually because I knew. I was so

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Speaker 2: paranoid because they were charging me for murder. I knew

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Speaker 2: I was in this, and I knew that they had

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Speaker 2: lying witness they may have to have lying witnesses against me.

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Speaker 2: I was like, what could they be doing? So I

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Speaker 2: was fearful. I was like, Oh, what if they're trying

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Speaker 2: to frame me? What if they're trying to put a

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Speaker 2: murder weapon on me? My mind was going crazy. I

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Speaker 2: was just thinking the worst, Like there's no way.

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Speaker 1: In hell you weren't wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Wait, when was the light detector test? That was in between?

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Speaker 2: That was when I was That was that was when

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Speaker 2: I was out. Yeah, I was out. It was after

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Speaker 2: they first came to interview me at my job.

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Speaker 4: Okay, right, so after the job interview, before the v yes,

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Speaker 4: and you went voluntarily to go take a light detect

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Speaker 4: your test.

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Speaker 1: I did all things that make sense in the mind

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Speaker 1: of an innocent person. You know, why wouldn't you answer questions?

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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you go in if you're innocent, you have

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Speaker 1: nothing to hide, and then you realize that anything you do,

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Speaker 1: anything you say, is going to be used against you.

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Speaker 1: So what was that light detector test? What were the results?

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Speaker 1: What did they claim were the results?

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Speaker 2: So we discovered this after the fact too, Like there's

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Speaker 2: a protocol they were supposed to follow, Like they're only

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Speaker 2: supposed to interview for how long?

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Speaker 4: Just I don't remember, less than ten minutes or the

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Speaker 4: results aren't going to be inconclusive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they interviewed me for like I don't really remember.

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Speaker 2: It was a while.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, before they hooked up the miss exactly. And we

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Speaker 4: actually didn't get to see the video of the machine.

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Speaker 4: We got to see the hour and a half interview

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Speaker 4: leading up to hooking up the machine, and as soon

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Speaker 4: as they hook up the machine, the tape stops.

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Speaker 3: Which is interesting.

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Speaker 4: Because the report says that you were deceptive, but it

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Speaker 4: doesn't specify as to what, you know, what did he

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Speaker 4: say that that?

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Speaker 3: And so I'm wondering, like what that could have been.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you have your own speculation as to

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Speaker 4: what it could be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do remember, like they asked me like impossible

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Speaker 2: trickery questions, right, like they was like, did you have

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Speaker 2: anything whatsoever to do with the murder of Jose Roblez?

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Speaker 2: And I was right about to just answer no, but

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Speaker 2: he stopped me before I asked he no. He goes, uh,

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Speaker 2: before you say yes or no when I say anything whatsoever?

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Speaker 2: I mean, like this is how I remember, Like I mean,

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Speaker 2: you're a driver, things got out of there, you're a shooter,

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Speaker 2: you sent somebody, or you think you know who did it?

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh shit, I think I may

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Speaker 2: know who did it, but I was will they will?

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Speaker 2: And it be like, okay, I think this person you know?

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Speaker 2: And that kind of threw me way off.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and it sounds like the tape running out

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Speaker 1: wasn't the only excuse. The word but jack assery with

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Speaker 1: with tape issues because the surveillance tape at the Blockbuster

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Speaker 1: video is all scrambled when they try to use it

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Speaker 1: in your defense, yeah, but yet miraculously fixed when you

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Speaker 1: go back, yeah, to use it.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about an investigator, detective investigator who has been

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Speaker 2: on a force for X amount of years prior to

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Speaker 2: this case. We're talking about a prosecutor that's been a

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Speaker 2: prosecutor for X amount of years before my case. Excuse

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Speaker 2: my friends, but there's no way in hell that they

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Speaker 2: do not know how to operate the proper system to

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Speaker 2: see this video tape. Clearly no way, you know. So

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Speaker 2: under the crowd control of the da at trial, they

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Speaker 2: claimed they could not tell one time I arrived. They

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Speaker 2: claimed that once you play the tape it's all garbled

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Speaker 2: and stuff like that, because they played it in a

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Speaker 2: regular VCR tape. Of course it's going to be all garble.

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Speaker 2: You're planning in an inappropriate system. It was supposed to

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Speaker 2: be in a system called the multiplexure. And me not

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Speaker 2: knowing everything about the law, I learned that fairly new

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Speaker 2: into the game of learning law. So they for sure knew.

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Speaker 1: Leading up to the trial. How confident were you.

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Speaker 2: That's hard to say, because like, I was confident, but

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Speaker 2: I was I was kind of worried at the same

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Speaker 2: time because at the end of the day, like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, well, at the time, I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: they were going to try to present a trial, you know.

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Speaker 2: I was still like, dang, what if they try to

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Speaker 2: frame me? What if they try to do this. I

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Speaker 2: just didn't know what they were going to do. But

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Speaker 2: I was like, but I'm innocent. So if you know,

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Speaker 2: a decent attorney should be able to establish that, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm innocent, And so I kind of had

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Speaker 2: mixed emotions. You know, I knew the witnesses were going

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Speaker 2: to be lying, but I just didn't know, Like I

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Speaker 2: felt like, I don't know. I had a mixed emotion.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I'm innocing, I'm gonna get out. But

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Speaker 2: then I was like, ooh, I'm going through a jury

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Speaker 2: because by the time I got to try. Mind you,

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Speaker 2: I had been in the county jail for a few

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Speaker 2: years and I've seen things. I've seen people say they

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Speaker 2: were innocent get found guilty, and I was you know,

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Speaker 2: it kind of changed my thought process. And plus I

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Speaker 2: had to deal with the drama of being in county jail.

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Speaker 2: So I just mentally I was all over the place.

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Speaker 1: In terms of who was supporting you in that courtroom.

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Speaker 1: I was would assume that your wife, Evelyn was there.

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Speaker 2: During I mean we were young, she was young. I'm

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Speaker 2: not making excuses, I mean she was there, but you know,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, this case took a

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Speaker 2: toll on everybody, so it kind of it kind of

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Speaker 2: caused her to kind of. I mean, her being that

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Speaker 2: age dealing with this type of stuff was just.

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Speaker 3: She also had a new.

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Speaker 2: As well and then trying to figure things out on

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Speaker 2: her own out there. Because when I was out there,

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00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,919
Speaker 2: like I was really a go getter, like like I

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Speaker 2: believed in the idea, like if she didn't want to work,

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Speaker 2: she didn't have to work. It was my responsibility to

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Speaker 2: make sure I provided. But she was mature enough and

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Speaker 2: and and loving enough. We're like, no, like, I feel

348
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Speaker 2: like there's a point where we might where we might struggle.

349
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Speaker 2: So I'm gonna get a part time job myself and

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Speaker 2: she got a part Like It's just we were just

351
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Speaker 2: in sync at the time. And uh, but again.

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Speaker 1: That's that's the ripple effect of the injustice and of

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Speaker 1: the cruelty as well, because it's not like you had

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Speaker 1: planned for something that's catastrophic to happen, but you're suddenly

355
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Speaker 1: ripped out of your life. Yeah, you're a new husband,

356
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Speaker 1: new father, and now your family is just left to

357
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Speaker 1: fend for themselves basically exactly.

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Speaker 2: So everything took a toll on her. We ended up

359
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Speaker 2: breaking up, and you know, she she was she was

360
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Speaker 2: there and she wasn't you know, so.

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Speaker 1: So take me back to the trial. As you're sitting

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Speaker 1: and you're watching it unfold, it must have been just

363
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Speaker 1: beyond disbelief.

364
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Speaker 2: It was, I mean, what made it really difficult? Like

365
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 2: when I was found guilty and I heard those words

366
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Speaker 2: like we did the jury find the defendant of Koma

367
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Speaker 2: guilty of first degree pre made it any murder? Like

368
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 2: I'm just froze and I kind of dropped my jaw,

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Speaker 2: like what just happened? And then it I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I just wasn't there. I wasn't there. Then when I

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Speaker 2: had to go to the holding tank and call my

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Speaker 2: brother and whomever. I can't remember who I called, it

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Speaker 2: was worse when I had to hear myself tell other

374
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Speaker 2: people I lost. I broke down in tears. Just just

375
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Speaker 2: talking about it just made it worse for me, Like

376
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: it was just too much.

377
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, the word using the word lost, that's that's

378
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 1: the first time I've honestly heard that. And you lost

379
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: a lot, yeah, in terms of your your life, But

380
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 1: it wasn't just guilty. It was you lost years, two decades.

381
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 2: When I first lost my case, I was like, how

382
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 2: am I going to deal with this now? Because I

383
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 2: knew the reality of this disappeal process and all this

384
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 2: other stuff that's years down the line. So now I'm like,

385
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Speaker 2: I'm going to be in prison for some time now,

386
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 2: Like what do I do? You know? So I'm dealing

387
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 2: with the fears of that. And then the worst thing

388
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 2: for me was my daughter. You know, she was planned,

389
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I didn't want her to

390
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 2: grow up not knowing me. That was like my worst fear,

391
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 2: you know, because my parents weren't together, Like my parents

392
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 2: weren't present, and I didn't want that to you know,

393
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: I mean my daughter to kind of entertain that same cycle.

394
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 3: Did she visit you.

395
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: Not? In the beginning, Like my then wife was dealing

396
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: with whatever she was dealing with it, so she didn't

397
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: bring her. I was in her in her life somewhat,

398
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 2: but then I was dealing with all this stuff with

399
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 2: being in prison, So I wasn't even as present as

400
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 2: I probably could have been as far as calling and

401
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I was just in a mentally in

402
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: a different place. But it got to the point too

403
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: where I started calling her every day, my daughter, like

404
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 2: actively being involved in her life, finding whatever strategic ways

405
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 2: I can, Yeah, I mean be present, whether it's like

406
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 2: getting in my stimulus checks, sending her half of my money,

407
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 2: sending her cards. You know, I got to the point

408
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 2: to where I'm self educating in the law, making a

409
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: little money, and then supporting my daughter and just really

410
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: really stay active. And luckily for me, she grew up. No,

411
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: I mean luckily for me, she recognized me as father

412
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 2: and was comfortable with calling me dad.

413
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Speaker 1: And I've read that she became she became your purpose

414
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: and your motivation to stay strong.

415
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what kept me going.

416
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: I think there is something really powerful about the fact

417
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: that her age represents, you know, represented for that period

418
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: of time, the amount of time that you had served.

419
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: So, yeah, she's nineteen. I've been in prison nineteen years

420
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: because she was literally born when I was locked up.

421
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: That must have been just you know, there's the power

422
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 1: passage of time, which I'm sure moves at a very

423
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: different pace when you're inside, but then seeing her grow

424
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: up is just a constant reminder of how much time

425
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: had gone by.

426
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, true. I mean like even when I talked

427
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 2: to her about like to my friends and while I

428
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 2: was incarcerated, like the way I talk about her, I

429
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: didn't realize it until someone brought it up to me

430
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: like a few weeks ago, and Abel brought it up too,

431
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 2: you know, because I talked to him about my daughter,

432
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 2: and I talked to people about my daughter. She's like

433
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: three years old, but I could. I can't help myself, right,

434
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: And then when people meet her, they're like, oh shit,

435
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: she's an adult.

436
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: You know, she'll always be your baby. It doesn't change.

437
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's that element of things there were.

438
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 4: There were two people that spoke at Joe Foma's parole

439
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 4: board hearing. One was his wife and one was his

440
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,239
Speaker 4: wife's sister, and they said he did a better job

441
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 4: raising his daughter from prison than most men do on

442
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: the outside.

443
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 3: And I saw that.

444
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 4: I mean I saw that right away when Jofama and

445
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 4: I first started talking and he learned I was an educator,

446
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 4: where we started talking about Joscelyn schooling and her goals

447
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 4: and everything like that.

448
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean that was like one of my

449
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: one priorities, like be present, figure out a way to

450
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: be involved in her life and let her know that

451
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm there, that I love her. So we talked, we talked,

452
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: we talked, we talked, gave her advice, you know, I mean,

453
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: she respected my input and I just showed her I

454
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: was present that I cared, you know. I sent her pictures,

455
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,479
Speaker 2: I sent her money, I sent her I sent people

456
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: to go buy her gifts. And when I didn't have it,

457
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: I called on some of my closest friends, Hey, my

458
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 2: daughter's sick. Can you you know, I don't know what

459
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: the what it was, maybe uber no not uber uh,

460
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: door dash or whatever. I was like, Hey, buy my

461
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: daughter some medicine, send it to her, and stuff like that.

462
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: So I just stayed present. Wow, and she felt my love.

463
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 4: And I remember you telling me about you would have

464
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 4: family visits with her and she would just come and

465
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 4: just snuggle with you.

466
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that meant the world to me, Like it

467
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: made me feel like a father. Like that meant a

468
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: lot to me.

469
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's an expression that prison either makes makes

470
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: you better or makes you better. How did you navigate that?

471
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest, there were times I was bitter.

472
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: There was times I was angry, There was the times.

473
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 2: There was times I wanted to give up. There was

474
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: times I to put I'll put it this way this case.

475
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: It took so many of my tears as ridiculous, and

476
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: it got to the point where I said, it doesn't

477
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: deserve my cheers anymore. And you know, I just decided

478
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: to fight and figure it out. So when I when

479
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: I came across obstacles, I just went in my own minds,

480
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: how do I deal with it? How do I around it?

481
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: How do I figure it out? And I just figured

482
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: it out. I started reading law books. Didn't understand what

483
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: the hell I was reading. It was foreign. But then

484
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: I got a law dictionary and when I came across

485
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: a word that I didn't understand, I read the word

486
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: and went back to the sentence. I said, oh, now

487
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: that makes sense, and moved on and kept going and

488
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: kept going and asked questions and just you know, watch

489
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 2: The Good Wife or you know, other last shows, and

490
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 2: just started picking up game. And slowly but surely I

491
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: started understanding.

492
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: And I mean, you didn't just understand it. You became

493
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: your own defense attorney, and you, acting as your own lawyer,

494
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: filed a federal petition for writ of habeas corpus and

495
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: you file that in twenty ten and you have to

496
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: wait five years and it's denied, I mean days, weeks, months,

497
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: years of waiting only to have it denied. What is

498
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: what did that do to you.

499
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: That was that was also like I had these moments

500
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 2: where it was like always the worst, like when I

501
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: got found guilty, when I found when my oppelart attorney

502
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: found the appeal, and I was confident, like, hey, they

503
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: got to see these errors. Then they denied me when

504
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: I found my own paperwork, and then they deny it,

505
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: and like those moments like they already stabbed me in

506
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: the heart, you know, that was just them adding the

507
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: extra daggers to you know what I mean, my spine

508
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: and everything like that, like when is it going to end?

509
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: Like when is somebody going to see this injustice? And

510
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: it just felt like it was never gonna come, you

511
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: know what I mean. I kept some level of faith,

512
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: but it's just.

513
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: It was just a lot how how And that's that's

514
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: I mean. I I don't mean to belabor the point,

515
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: but that's so much to handle. And and was was

516
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: there You've spoken about low points, but was there a

517
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: moment where you thought I can't do this anymore? And

518
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: and where did you find the strength to move forward?

519
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: So honestly, I mean, the main motivation was my daughter,

520
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: Like if I give up, I'm giving up on her.

521
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: So another year, five years, pass. Another five years go by,

522
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: and in twenty twenty, forces finally start to align on

523
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: your behalf. Enter Jessica Jacobs, a mother of four and

524
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: a teacher from Topanga Canyon with a taste for binging

525
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: true crime on Netflix. Jessica, just tell me a little

526
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: bit about you and what led you to reach out

527
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: to Ellen Eggers.

528
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: When I was watching the Netflix show.

529
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 4: I was watching a ton of Netflix because it was

530
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 4: when we were on the initial lockdown for COVID, and

531
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: I was just watching show after show and came across

532
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 4: this one that was talking about wrongful convictions, and this woman,

533
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 4: you know, Ellen Eggers, was so passionate that I could

534
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 4: just feel her energy through the screen. And you know,

535
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: this is one of my out of the box things.

536
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 4: I'm sure a lot of people are compelled by what

537
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 4: they see on TV, but I don't know that a

538
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 4: lot of people would push pause, Google her and call her,

539
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 4: which is what I did. And then thankfully she is

540
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 4: one of those type of people who would take the call.

541
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: And so in the beginning I was just helping her

542
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 4: kind of with technology, you know, and then eventually she

543
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: would have me. She taught me how to do summary

544
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 4: notes from transcripts, and so I would help her do that.

545
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 4: But then as we were talking about the cases that

546
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 4: we were working on, and we had worked on two

547
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 4: of them together, both ended it in exonerations. I would see

548
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: these little things. I'd be like, oh, but what about that?

549
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 4: But what about that? And you know, all these pieces,

550
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 4: and found that I was pretty good at detective work.

551
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 4: And so, you know, we would I went and talked

552
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 4: to witnesses, and I went and you know, met with

553
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: coroners and kind of dug around to find the things

554
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: that aren't on the surface. And I guess she thought

555
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 4: I was pretty good at that. And so, and Joe

556
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 4: Fauma's brother reached out to her. She was like, well,

557
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 4: I can't take another case, but I've got this crazy

558
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 4: lady in southern California.

559
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 3: I'll just hand it off to her.

560
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 4: And so, so when I started looking at Joe Fama's

561
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: case and seeing like, what a straightforward case of innocence.

562
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 4: It was more so than the other two that I

563
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 4: had looked at in my life.

564
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: I started saying, Okay, you got to take his case.

565
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: You got to take his case.

566
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 4: I mean, it was two years of us working before

567
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 4: Ellen even considered taking the case, and when she there

568
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 4: was one moment when she first considered it, I said

569
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 4: to her, let's go talk to the brother of.

570
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: The victim, Jesse Roebliss.

571
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: Now, before that, didn't you get the murder book.

572
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 4: I think it was before that I got the murder book,

573
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 4: because otherwise, if Ellen has already was already kind of

574
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 4: on board, she probably would have gone to court instead

575
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: of me. So I think you're I think you're right

576
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 4: that that happened first. So Joe Fama, I think when

577
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: I won. One of the times I spoke to him

578
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 4: on the phone, he said, hey, I won this this

579
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 4: appeal and the Superior Supreme Court, and I was like,

580
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 4: what does that mean? And so he taught me all

581
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 4: about like he filed this ten fifty four point nine

582
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 4: discovery motion with the Superior Court, and then he appealed

583
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 4: to the second District and they denied him, and all

584
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 4: these terms were completely foreign to me. And then he

585
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 4: went to the Supreme Court and it overturned it and

586
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 4: remanded the lower court to give him his discovery. And

587
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 4: so he taught me all that, And at the end

588
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 4: of his lecture to me teaching me law, he goes,

589
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 4: but I have no way of getting it because I'm

590
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 4: in here and I don't have a lawyer, and so

591
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 4: I started making calls and was pretty darn aggressive.

592
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: Oh man, I remember.

593
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: Those calls and you physically went to represent him.

594
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: Well.

595
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 4: Eventually before that, I was making calls to the DA's

596
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: office regularly, like just pushing, pushing, pushing, like they were like, okay,

597
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 4: just let her in here, social shut up. And so

598
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: I went in and looked through the whole DA file

599
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 4: in front of one of the prosecutors. And as I'm

600
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 4: looking at it, I'm taking pictures of things. And then

601
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 4: I go home and I and Jafama calls and I go, Okay,

602
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 4: here's all the things I found, and he's like okay,

603
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 4: but we're still missing this.

604
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: And so we went to court. Did you write a

605
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 3: motion to get ables discovery or how did that? Did

606
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 3: we even get that court date?

607
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: The court day was already established to basically for the

608
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: court just to check the status of how things were

609
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: going right. And then we were there and the just

610
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: was kind of giving me a hard time. I felt

611
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: that she gave me a hard time because she got

612
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: overturned by an inmate, you know, pro per person that

613
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: basically told her she was wrong, and the higher course agreed,

614
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: and then you shined in was like, well what about

615
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: this and that? Blah blah blah, and then she kind

616
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: of softened up and got on board. Yeah.

617
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 4: So the first time I went to court in person,

618
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: it was just to pick up some documents the CDs

619
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 4: I had to pick up, so that was that was

620
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 4: no big deal. It was kind of exciting being in

621
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 4: a courtroom. But the second time, where Jofama was actually

622
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 4: at the hearing via video, I also joined via video.

623
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 3: And in that hearing.

624
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 4: Is where I said to the judge, your honor, they've

625
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 4: given us all of the all that they have. However,

626
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 4: we also know on Jofama's case, but they also have

627
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 4: Abel's case and they're refusing to give that to us,

628
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 4: and we think we should and so I argued that

629
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 4: in front of the judge and she agreed and said, yeah,

630
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 4: give them as Able's murder book too, and that's where

631
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 4: we found new evidence.

632
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 3: But even still looking at Abele's.

633
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 4: Murder book and Jofama's murder book, looking at the cases

634
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 4: side by side, there were so many obvious things where

635
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 4: they could help one another, but there were still things missing.

636
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: And I remember pushing the DA to push the sheriff,

637
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 4: and then they weren't doing it well enough, and so

638
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 4: I called the sheriff and I started pushing them. I

639
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 4: would call every single day to the It was a

640
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: Hamasi bureau that had the records, and I was like,

641
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: how's this request coming, how's this request coming? And finally

642
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 4: they wrote back in AFFI David saying we don't have

643
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 4: anything more, and I didn't Joe Fama and I didn't

644
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 4: believe that still, and so that's when I befriended the

645
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 4: original homicide detective and said, how can we get more?

646
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 3: I know there's more, and he.

647
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: Invited me to go with him to the homicide bureau,

648
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 4: and sure enough, there was more.

649
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You

650
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good

651
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to

652
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Now, I have

653
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: to just stop for a second and say that this

654
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite aspects of this story and

655
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: of your friendship, and that is the power that getting

656
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: involved actually can have. You've said that lots of people

657
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: are moved when they watch or hear something, but very

658
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 1: few people insert themselves into the solution. Jo Fama, you

659
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: hear that there is this woman who's now cold calling

660
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: Ellen Eggers, and now she's in your life as well.

661
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: What did you initially make of Jessica?

662
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to makeup. I was like, I

663
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: don't know where this is going to go. But I

664
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: will say this, like, and I think I can speak

665
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: for a similarly situated people. You know, when you have

666
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: an outside advocate, it gives you hope, you know, I mean,

667
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: it gives you that thought process. Okay, maybe something good

668
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: will come of this, because when we're doing it on

669
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: our own, it's just so so hard, you know, because

670
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: they don't take us seriously. We don't have foots on

671
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: ground to interview, go and pick up things and stuff

672
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 2: like that. So I would say for the most part,

673
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: her becoming a part of my world gave me hope.

674
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: Now, Jessica, you're a mama. For you run a school, Yeah,

675
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: it's you describe it for me because.

676
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 4: Because okay, I guess I run an educational program that

677
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 4: is a hybrid of unschooling and early college. And the

678
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 4: unschooling portion is where the learners learn what they want,

679
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 4: when they want, how they want, and if they want

680
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 4: to patient a lot of them at the pace they want,

681
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 4: and a lot of them have decided that they want

682
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 4: to learn about the law because they were so inspired

683
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 4: by you know, I would say, oh, you guys, here's

684
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 4: the latest development. Or I'd be in the middle of

685
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 4: having a conversation with a student and Jofama would call

686
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 4: and I'd have to answer because I can't call him back,

687
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,479
Speaker 4: and so then I'd put him on speaker and he'd

688
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 4: be talking to the students. And so a lot of

689
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: them their unschooling became working on the cases, and some

690
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: of them have taken it quite far. In fact, one

691
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: of them, two of them together started a nonprofit organization

692
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 4: now and they're working with Jofauma and getting other people

693
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 4: out of prison.

694
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: We will link with that at the end of the

695
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: episode as well, because I was on that site yesterday.

696
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: It's pretty damn impressive. But my point is also that

697
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: you had a fairly full plate in terms of so

698
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: but where where did you get that initiative that I'm

699
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: gonna I'm going to spend a lot of my time

700
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: and effort and focus helping an absolute stranger.

701
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 3: Hm, I think, hmm, that's a great question. I was.

702
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 4: I think I was bored during the pandemic because I

703
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 4: didn't have students coming in person as often. They still

704
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 4: did occasionally, but not as often. So I think I

705
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 4: had the pandemic opened up the door for my first

706
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,959
Speaker 4: conversation with Ellen, and I'm learning more, even more now

707
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 4: that I've been involved in this world, is how many

708
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 4: innocent people are stuck behind bars without any outside advocate,

709
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 4: without any attorney.

710
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: And if I have the ability to do it, it

711
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 3: would be.

712
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 4: Just dishonorable for me to not do it, I guess,

713
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 4: And so I've made time and create brought it in

714
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 4: so it's a part of my program so that that

715
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 4: you know, that makes time, and you know, my family

716
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 4: members help, and the students help, and then even the students'

717
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 4: parents want to help. And I feel like the more

718
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: we can tell people that you don't have to be

719
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 4: a lawyer to help somebody, the more we can help people,

720
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 4: and not just incarcerated people. But that's kind of where

721
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 4: a focus is because that just seems to be like

722
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 4: the epitome of what's wrong with our world in general

723
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 4: is like we've got this system to punish people who

724
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 4: do something wrong, which I have my disagreements with in

725
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 4: and of itself, but then to put somebody who didn't

726
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: do anything wrong into that situation and not let them

727
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 4: have an avenue to undo it is just crazy making.

728
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 4: So I could, I wouldn't be able to stop if

729
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 4: I if I wanted to.

730
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: Ellen Eggers is the same way.

731
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I think every single I would say, every

732
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 4: other conversation that I had with her over the course

733
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 4: of course of four years, she said, I'm not doing

734
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 4: this anymore.

735
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 3: I can't take another case. This is too much work.

736
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 3: And then she's got this later. Yeah, yeah, exactly, she can't.

737
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 3: She can't.

738
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: So we talked about clearing the hurdle of getting the

739
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: murder books, and once you get to see Abel and

740
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: Jafama's side by side, things become very clear. But talk

741
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: to me about getting the witness to recant, because that's

742
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: fascinating and something that neither you or Ellen Eggers thought

743
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: would happen the way it did.

744
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 4: I thought it was going to happen that way, but

745
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: that was just in my my naivety. I had no

746
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 4: reason to think that I shouldn't have thought that, but

747
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 4: I did and so I thought, well, it can't hurt

748
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 4: to ask him, And so I asked Ellen if she

749
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 4: would go with me because I couldn't go into a

750
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 4: prison on my own. And she reluctantly agreed, and I

751
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 4: kind of just teased her.

752
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: I was like, it'll be a girl's trip, you know.

753
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 3: And we talked the whole.

754
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 4: Way about you know, because it's a long drive, five

755
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 4: hour drive each way. She's like, this is such a

756
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 4: waste of time. This is ridiculous. And we walk in

757
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 4: and we told Jesse who we were and he didn't

758
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 4: even like look at us. He just looked at the table,

759
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 4: saw a piece of paper, grabbed a pen and wrote

760
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 4: down it wasn't Jofauma and handed over the piece of paper.

761
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 4: And I looked at Ellen and I was like, told ye.

762
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 4: But then we continued interviewing him and we got a

763
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 4: lot of information that ended up helping with the case.

764
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: So that piece of paper ended up being well worth

765
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: the five hour trip each way. Yes, because in January

766
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, Ellen Eggers presented a claim of

767
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: innocence on behalf of Coleman and Soto to the Los

768
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: Angeles County District Attorney's Conviction Integrity Unit, and luckily you

769
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: had a progressive and good person in position of power

770
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: there and when they did not take immediate action to

771
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: investigate the case, she asked the District Attorney's Habeas Litigation Unit,

772
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: which is where the person is to consider the evidence,

773
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: and after doing so, November of twenty twenty three, Eggers

774
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: was about to file a state petition for a writ

775
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: of habeas corpus. The Habeas Unit agreed to prepare a

776
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: joint petition for a writ of habeas corpus for both cases,

777
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 1: beginning first with the Soto case, and on January third,

778
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, Jofama Coleman was released from prison. What

779
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: did that mean to both of you?

780
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 4: I couldn't be there the day he was least because

781
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 4: I was traveling, And I remember just being so happy

782
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 4: to be able to touch you.

783
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, you're real, I can actually I can

784
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 3: touch you.

785
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: So you didn't even meet physically until after Jofama was released, right,

786
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: That's amazing. But you very much knew one another at

787
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: that point.

788
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much.

789
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 4: So, Yes, we ended up in our you know, I

790
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 4: was talking to Jofama so much, mostly via the tablet,

791
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 4: but on the phone too, that when I'd have problems

792
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 4: in my life, I'd be like, oh good Joe, Fama,

793
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 4: let me tell him all about it.

794
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: So he ended up being a confidant for me too.

795
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: And then on February twenty seventh, twenty twenty four, the

796
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge William Ryan granted Coleman's

797
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: joint habeas petition for both you and able Soto, vacating

798
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: your convictions, dismissing the charges and declaring you actually innocent.

799
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: That must have been like a whole nother day of

800
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: freedom on many different levels.

801
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: It was, you know, the justice sign with the statue,

802
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: you know, the justice sign with the little you know,

803
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: when he when he declared me innocent, I was like, Okay,

804
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: now that justice size has some weight, you know, because before,

805
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: you know, I used to use poetic words like when

806
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: I write to certain people, and I was like, if

807
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 2: Justice was the person it would be frowning upon this situation.

808
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: Like Justice was smiling at that day because you know,

809
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: justice isn't what people perceive it to be. So I

810
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 2: felt a glimpse of justice in that moment.

811
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: What is your life like today?

812
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: Still a bit overwhelming? It's a big adjustment. Like I'm

813
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 2: not gonna basically fake the phone and act like it's

814
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: peaches and creams. It's still an adjustment. I mean I

815
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: was I've been away from civilization for you know, nineteen years,

816
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: and it's like this is a lot to adjust to.

817
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I actually dealt with some anxiety when I

818
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: first got out. But I'm getting better and it's a

819
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: huge adjustment. It's going to be a process for sure,

820
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 2: but I'm enjoying every moment.

821
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: And how is your daughter?

822
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 2: She is great. I mean I'm even dealing with the health.

823
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: She loves me to death. But you know, when you

824
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: have this person wanting your attention and this person wanting

825
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: your attention and this person wanted to hang, guys like

826
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: you got to create that balance, you know, and make

827
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 2: them all feel appreciated. So I'm juggling that. We have

828
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: our ups and downs sometimes, but for the most part,

829
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: it's pretty good.

830
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: What what does your friendship mean to both of you?

831
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: And what you admire most about the other?

832
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 4: You know, I think I have a son who's exactly

833
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 4: the same age as Jofama's daughter, and so having that

834
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 4: common thread but knowing how different it was that I

835
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 4: got to actually raise my son. I'd say what I

836
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 4: admire most about him, Gosh, there's so many things. I

837
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 4: definitely admire his role as a father, but then seeing

838
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: him on the outside navigating everything he just described, watching

839
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,959
Speaker 4: him learn, like he's an amazing learner. And then I'd say,

840
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: probably the biggest, biggest thing I'm impressed with is his

841
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 4: commitment to justice. And you know, I remember him telling

842
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 4: me like he wanted to be a lawyer, and I

843
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 4: would tell other people and they're like, Jess, come on,

844
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: he's going to get out and he's going to want

845
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 4: to live his life. He's not going to want to

846
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 4: focus on the justice system after and I said, okay,

847
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 4: you're right. And I remember telling him like, don't keep

848
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 4: telling me you want to go to school and be

849
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 4: a lawyer if you really don't, like, you don't have

850
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 4: to do that. He's like, no, I really want to.

851
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 4: And then sure enough, you know, he's hobnobin with all

852
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 4: the innocent attorneys and mentoring these teenagers who are going

853
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 4: to law school and getting a's in his classes, and

854
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 4: you know, so that's that's super impressive. He's an amazing

855
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 4: role model for his own kids.

856
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 3: But also everybody else is.

857
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: Now You're you're on the hot seat, sir. What is

858
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: your friendship with Jessica mean to you? And what do

859
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 1: you most admire about her?

860
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: It means everything. I mean when I see her, I

861
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: see my own freedom. You know, She's really tenacious. That's

862
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: what I admire most about her and her her way

863
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: of thinking. Her out of the box thinking is very

864
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: effective on many fronts. So overall, that's what I can say.

865
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: I admire both most about her.

866
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: You know, you've mentioned that fighting injustice is a shared

867
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: passion for both of you, and I completely agree with you,

868
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: Jessica when you say, once you see it, you can't

869
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: unsee it, and it's your more obligation to fight for

870
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: what's fair. You know, Jafama, I read a quote from you,

871
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: and I think I actually pulled it off of petition

872
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: that one of your family members started for you. But

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00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: you said that I'm a black male who grew up

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00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: in a single parent home with no wealth or platform.

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00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 1: As such, the wrongs I suffer are easily swept under the.

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00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: Rug, exactly, And that's that's why these situations are are

877
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 2: are too rare, you know, because there are other many,

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00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 2: other Blacks and Mexicans that are in prison for crimes

879
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: they did not commit, or you know, even if if

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00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 2: they were somehow involved in the crime, they didn't get

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00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: justice in a sense of fair sentencing, you know what

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00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: I mean, compared to their other people. So it's like

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00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: the system is just as minorities different. I feel.

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00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: Is that part of what drives you, if not entirely

885
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: what drives you and your desire to be.

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00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: A lawyer, Yeah, it actually is. But also because like

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00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 2: I'm also somewhat of a I guess you can say

888
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 2: self critical at times, but after going what going through

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00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: what I've gone through, I kind of actually believe in

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00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: my abilities to become an attorney.

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00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: You're both incredibly inspiring. I really appreciate the time you

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00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: took with us.

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00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: Thank you appreciating here, Thank you.

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00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

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00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

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00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.

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00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,

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00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea

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00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,

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00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer

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00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Biel, research by

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00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with

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00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by

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00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social

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00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

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00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren

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00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

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00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one