1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: Fifty of them took out something called alien Abduction Insurance, 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: which promised to pay out if they were abducted, impregnated, 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: or killed by aliens, and fifty of them insured themselves 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: to a million dollars each. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: I mean, that's such a great racket because the great 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: thing about alien abductees is they can't prove it, So 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: if you're the insurance company, you never have to pay out. 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 3: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I served in 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 3: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 3: all around the world. 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 12 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 13 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 3: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 14 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: created conspiracies. 15 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 16 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: weren't true. 17 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 3: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 18 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 3: news almost every day. 19 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 20 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 21 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mission Implausible. Welcome to Mission Implausible. Where with 22 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 3: both of our producers, Adam Davidson and John Stern. 23 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 4: Hey, guys, you know, since I'm here with the three 24 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 4: of you. There's a question I get asked a ton, 25 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 4: which is, how does Adam know these guys. 26 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 3: I don't remember the specifics, but I was, especially after 27 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. I had gotten out of the agency and 28 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: I'd worked in Moscow and on Russia issues and was 29 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: writing some myself and going on TV at the time, 30 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: because people seemed perplexed. They didn't understand or have experience 31 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 3: with Russian intelligence and things seem so foreign to them. 32 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: I read your article where you were talking about the 33 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 3: Russian what's called SYSTEMA where essentially the sort of mafia 34 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 3: criminal culture that they all live in, where everybody's afraid 35 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: to attack anybody else because they don't know what they 36 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 3: have on them. And you wrote an article in The 37 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 3: New Yorker which I thought captured that really well, and 38 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: I would often use that either in my pieces or 39 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: when I was on TV talking, and I might have 40 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 3: on Twitter, since we followed each other, I might have 41 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: reached out to you, and. 42 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 5: I do honestly no joke. I'm very proud that you 43 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 5: felt that way like that makes me feel very happy. 44 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 3: Geez. 45 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 4: If I had known the story about how you both 46 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 4: met with so boring, I wouldn't. 47 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Have asked. 48 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 4: Were two worldwide adventurers. Yeah, I tweeted. 49 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 5: Back, although I do remember the three of us talking 50 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 5: and like you saying, we never talked to journalists. That 51 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 5: wasn't part of our job. 52 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: I never spoke to a journalist, not a single time 53 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 3: when I was at thirty years an agency. No me neither. 54 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: And I have a question for you about UFOs So. 55 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: In Baghdad, I was talking to an Iraqi official who 56 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: claimed that it was a conspiracy theory, perhaps spread by 57 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: CIA and by people like you and the press, that 58 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: Iraqi culture was not the greatest because we were claiming 59 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: that aliens thousands of years ago had come and helped 60 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: them build well the pyramids of course in Egypt, but 61 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: also the Ziggurats and gifted them this. And of course 62 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: he said that that conspiracy theory that Aliens had come 63 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: and helped start civilization, it was a conspiracy to destroy 64 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: Iraq culture and Iraqi pride. 65 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 5: I mean, I've certainly know that there's a lot of 66 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 5: people out there who think the Aliens did everything ancient. 67 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 5: I never heard the conspiracy theory part of it, although 68 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 5: having spent a lot of time in Iraq, there's a 69 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 5: lot of conspiracy theories in Iraq, in the Middle East 70 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 5: in general, and I remember really coming to understand that 71 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 5: when you live in a world where the official story 72 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 5: is definitely untrue, like the one thing you know for 73 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 5: one hundred percent certainty is whatever the official story is 74 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 5: that's not true, it does create a fertile ground for imagining, well, 75 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 5: what could be true, maybe the opposite of the official story. 76 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 5: And also it's a place where the fix really is in. 77 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 5: There really are rooms where a handful of people get 78 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 5: together and decide major events. And they might be people 79 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 5: who on the surface or enemies like within a country 80 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 5: or across countries. So I am now, as you know, 81 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 5: working on a project about ancient Mesopotamia, and I have 82 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 5: learned that when you talk to academic archaeologists and you 83 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 5: say you're a journalist, you have to very quickly say, 84 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 5: I don't believe an alien. 85 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 4: Leads us in so well to the topic of today's 86 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 4: episode UFOs, And that's the way podcasts are supposed to work, right, 87 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 4: banter and then you get into the subject. But the 88 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 4: reason I'm here to say that today is because I've 89 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 4: dragged my good friend Michael ian Black in to speak 90 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 4: about this because he has a long standing relationship to 91 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 4: UFOs all right from television. You might know him from 92 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: Michael and Michael have issues ed the State. A lot 93 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 4: of people say the State wet, hot American summer. I 94 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 4: love the seventies, I love the eighties, I love the nineties. 95 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: What's next time is a flat circle, baby, We'll see 96 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: where it ends up. 97 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 4: He's an actor, he's a stand up comedian. He's a 98 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 4: writer of humor, kind of a David Sedaris type when 99 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 4: it comes to your writing. 100 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: Sure, minus the success. 101 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: I actually think you're very successful compared to. 102 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: Some Yeah, I'm looking forward to a Chortal or two. 103 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 2: You'll be lucky if we get to two. If we 104 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: get one Shortal, I will consider this podcast a success. 105 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: Which didn't mention is that I have a long standing 106 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: fascination with UFOs and related topics. 107 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: Can tell us a little bit about how that came 108 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: about and where you are now. 109 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: I remember being interested in this topic from like the 110 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: ages of four, five, six, I mean Close Encounters had 111 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: come out, and Star Wars was out and Star Trek 112 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: was out, and I had a sighting when I was 113 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: in high school coming back from the movies one night 114 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: with my girlfriend at the time and my best friend, 115 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: and we were driving back and we saw over the 116 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: tree line. It didn't seem like it was particularly high 117 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: above the tree line, maybe about the altitude of a 118 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: small plane, and we saw a I guess you'd call 119 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: it something like a fireball. It was a sort of 120 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 2: reddish orange, glowing ball of something sort of traveling slowly 121 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: and soundlessly across the sky. At the time, I didn't 122 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: know that that was a kind of common sighting. We 123 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: didn't know what it was. I thought maybe it was 124 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: a small player that was on fire. And so the 125 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: next morning I checked the newspaper to see if there'd 126 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: been a plane crash, and there hadn't been, or at 127 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: least nothing was reported, and that was it. Like we 128 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 2: tried to follow it as we were driving, but it 129 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: was in the woods, you know, so we couldn't. And 130 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 2: then it disappeared. There was no mention of it in 131 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: the paper, and that was that. And so my interest 132 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: remained but sort of waned over the years until twenty seventeen, 133 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: which is when The New York Times published their now 134 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: famous article about UFOs, written by Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenfall, 135 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 2: and Helena Cooper, which basically said, yeah, UFOs were real, 136 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: the Pentagon's been studying them for years and we don't 137 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: know what the hell they are, and so I've been 138 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: following the story very closely since then. 139 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: Recently there was some talk of whistleblowers that have come 140 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: out and talked to Congress, and of course different players 141 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: in Congress over the last few years have been talking 142 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 3: about declassifying or asking what the government knows about UAPs 143 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 3: they call them now, And I don't know why they 144 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 3: changed the name. I think UFO was a fine name. 145 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: But I love UFOs as an acronym. But I think 146 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: there was a movement inside ufology, which is what you know, 147 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: people who study this call themselves uphologists, to get a 148 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: different name on it because UFO had so much stigma 149 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: and baggage attached to it, so they went with UAP. 150 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: But yes, so answer your question about whistleblowers. Yes, so 151 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: famously last year a guy named David Grush came forward 152 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: and he was sort of the laison between the sort 153 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: of official channels of the government and the less official 154 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: channels of the government as represented by ARROW. I guess, 155 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: which is the All Domain Anomalist Resolution Office, which was 156 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: tasked by Congress. It's in the name resolving these cases 157 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: of UFO slash UAP, and Grush was involved in that 158 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: effort and ended up coming forward and telling the public 159 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: this is real. These programs are real. We have in 160 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: our possession, meaning the US many craft. The number that 161 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: I keep hearing is something like a dozen, but who knows. 162 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: And there are existing reverse engineering programs to try to 163 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: get as much tech from these things as we can. 164 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: And that caused a huge firestorm, and he ended up 165 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: testifying in front of Congress alongside Ryan Graves and David Freeber, 166 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: who are both pilots who witnessed anomalost phenomena, the famous 167 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: tic TAC incident and another incident. And there are allegedly 168 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: forty whistleblowers who have testified to Congress. And what's key 169 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: about these whistleblowers as opposed to David Grush is Grush 170 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: didn't have first hand evidence of these programs. He's a 171 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: secondhand witness. But these whistleblowers who are allegedly coming forward 172 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: are all first hand witnesses, meaning they have either touched 173 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: the craft or communicating with quote unquote biologics or witness 174 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: these biologics or handled meta materials or some such thing. 175 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: So that's where we are. 176 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: Let me gently push back and let's have fun with this. 177 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: Wow, dare you? 178 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,599 Speaker 1: I'm a guest on your podcast, So if Grush is 179 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: your witness, you got to sort of look and take 180 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: it as a whole. Gruss was a quarter to the media. 181 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: Grush was committed to a mental health facility by his 182 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: wife for alcoholism and suicide. And this was found by 183 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: reporters who looked into them after he was making these statements. 184 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: It wasn't found by reporters. It was leaked to a 185 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: reporter named Ken Klippenstein. His snout was led in that direction. 186 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: But what you're saying is true. Grush was checked into 187 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: a psychiatric facility, he did have troubled alcohol, he did 188 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: have PTSD. All of that is exactly true. He has 189 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: said as much. The piece that came out was clearly 190 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: a hit piece for reasons that aren't clear unless there 191 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: was some reason to unless there was some compelling reason 192 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: for the government to push back. The government as an 193 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: entity has not disputed his claims. What they have said 194 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: is through the Pentagon, they've basically said, we've seen no 195 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: evidence of extraterrestrial technology or cracked. I'm paraphrasing, but that's 196 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: basically what they're saying. It's a kind of non denial denial. 197 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: But his claims were investigated by the Inspector General for Intelligence. 198 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: I don't know what you call that person. Those claims 199 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: were found to be urgent and credible, and he was 200 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: invited to testify in front of Congress, which he did 201 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: under oath. 202 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 6: Okay, so there has been activity by by alien or 203 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 6: non human technology and or beings that has caused harm 204 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 6: to human I. 205 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 7: Can't get into the specifics in an open environment, but 206 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 7: at least the activity that I personally witnessed. And not 207 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 7: to be very careful here because you don't tell you 208 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 7: never to acknowledge tradecraft, right, So what I personally witnessed 209 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 7: myself and my wife was very disturbing. 210 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 6: You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. 211 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 6: Have you seen have you seen the spacecraft? 212 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 7: I have to be careful to describe what I've seen 213 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 7: firsthand and not in this environment, but I could answer 214 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 7: that question behind behind closed doors. 215 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: It's not like Grush was the first guy to come forward. 216 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 2: There have been dozens and dozens of these people. It's 217 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: that Grush is probably the highest ranking or most credible 218 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: to come forward. There have been other high ranking military officials. 219 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: Did you remember this story that came out maybe five 220 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: or six years ago. The head of Israeli intelligence was like, yeah, 221 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: we've got this, We've got this treaty, this intergalactic treaty 222 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 2: with all these other civilizations. Let me see if I 223 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: can find the exact quote. Okay, this is from NBC 224 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: News twenty twenty. A former Israeli space security chief has 225 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: sent eyebrow shooting heavenward by saying that Earthlings have been 226 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 2: in contact with extraterrestrials from a quote unquote galactic federation. 227 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 2: This is how I'm a shed former head of Israel's 228 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,119 Speaker 2: Defense Ministry Space Directorate. 229 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: Why is this a US government thing? It seems to 230 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: me if it's other life forces or whatever coming to 231 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: the States, why do we care that the US government 232 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: is classifying something. You'd think anybody around the world could 233 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 3: have seen this or done this, or scientists could be 234 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 3: looking at this. But somehow we're talking about agencies in 235 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: the US government holding things up Like it's hard to 236 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: imagine why if somebody came to this planet, they would 237 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 3: somehow just come to us. 238 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: It's a great question, and it's a question that comes 239 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: up a lot. And the fact is this is a 240 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: global phenomena. It has been since the beginning of time. 241 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: And when I say the beginning of time, I literally 242 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: mean the beginning of recorded human history. People have been 243 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: seeing things like this in the skies. Russia has always 244 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: had a big program, China has a big program, Brazil 245 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: has had a big program, Mexico has a program all 246 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: focused on this stuff. So this is a global phenomena. 247 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 2: It's just that we focus on the US because we're 248 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 2: in the US, and also because the US has taken 249 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: the lead on this from the beginning. The secrecy of 250 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: it emerged because the UFO phenomena, its modern incarnation, began 251 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: happening towards the tail end of World War Two, when 252 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: Allied fighters in their planes we're seeing these objects following them, 253 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: these little sort of round metallic spheres just kind of 254 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: following them, and they didn't know what it was. They 255 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: thought it was some sort of German weapon. Well, the 256 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: Germans were observing the same thing. They thought it was 257 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 2: an Allied weapon. And that's what became known as Foo fighters, 258 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 2: and that's where the band got the name. 259 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: We know how difficult it is to keep a secret. 260 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: Some of the things I thought were the most secret 261 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: things we had in CIA when I was on the inside. 262 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: I pick up the New York Times and I'm like, 263 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: holy shit, it's all out now. And not only that, 264 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: I was sort of tangentially involved in this particular operation, 265 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: and there's more facts in here than I knew, right 266 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: because I wasn't cleared into the entire thing. So the 267 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: phenomenon of tens of thousands of people all knowing this 268 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: and nobody saying it after all these years in Russia, 269 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: the United States, Australia, except for like a few whistleblowers, 270 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: I had trouble with that. So theoretically, I'm not like 271 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: coming against anything you're saying. I just want to see 272 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: the proof until i'm going to buy into it. 273 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. I mean to me, the only 274 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: thing that has been proven beyond a shadow of a 275 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: doubt in my mind is that there are anomalous things 276 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: happening in our skies, in our space and in our seas. 277 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 3: All right, well, that's been some great stuff. Let's take 278 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 3: a short break for a commercial. Moving back in just 279 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: a moment, glad. 280 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: To have everybody back. Let's go back down the rabbit hole. 281 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: If the government is classifying this stuff, it seems to 282 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 3: me there's two possible reasons, and one of them doesn't 283 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: hold up. So one of them is we want to 284 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: study it because we want to get a leg up 285 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 3: on the Chinese or something like that. That means you 286 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: assume that something from billions of miles away we would understand. 287 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: The other one is, oh, it would scare people, and 288 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: therefore we don't want to let it out. But then again, 289 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 3: that assumes that we are the only ones that control 290 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 3: this thing, and people would go crazy. And I don't 291 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: buy that piece at all. 292 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: As I said, before this phenomenon started happening towards the 293 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: tail end of the Second World War, which means obviously 294 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: the onset of the Cold War, America was already looking 295 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: ahead to its main confrontation with the Soviet Union. Suddenly 296 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: in Roswell in nineteen forty seven, something crashes that is indisputable. 297 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: The Air Force at first says it's a flying saucer. 298 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: We've got ourselves a genuin flying saucer that crashed here 299 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: in Roswell. Then like a day later they said we 300 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: were mistaken. It's just a weather balloon. Decades later they 301 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: said it wasn't a weather balloon, and then after that, 302 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: I think they've come up with another story since then. 303 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: So the secrecy begins almost immediately. At the same time 304 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: that this was happening, the Russians were having their own experiences, 305 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: the Chinese were having their own experiences. Like it was 306 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: all happening kind of simultaneously at a very fraught time. 307 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: And that's not coincidental. If you believe the UFO Lord, 308 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: I don't know if I do or I don't, but 309 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: UFOs are so strongly associated with nuclear weapons and nuclear testing. 310 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: There are famous stories corroborated where UFOs will show up 311 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 2: at I forget the name of the base here in 312 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: the US, it was a missile base, and in nineteen 313 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: sixty three, I believe, and they shut down the nukes, 314 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: which should not be possible. The nukes are not connected 315 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: to each other, and they're not connected to a central 316 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: relay point. Each one got shut down one by one 317 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: and then they were offline, and then at some point 318 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: they were brought back online. Russia or the Soviet Union 319 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: had a different problem. The UFOs came and they actually 320 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: activated the missiles to launch, and the Soviets didn't know 321 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: what to do about it. They were like, our missiles 322 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: are getting ready to launch right now, we're not controlling them, 323 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: and then they shut it off. And UFOs have been 324 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: around missiles and missile testing facilities since the beginning. So 325 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: it's not coincidental that all this stuff started happening around 326 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: World War Two. If you believe the lore, people say, 327 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: why don't they just land on the White House lawn 328 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty two, they basically did. I'm reading off 329 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: the Wikipedia page of it now. From July twelfth to 330 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: July twenty nine, nineteen fifty two, a series of unidentified 331 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: flying object sightings were reported in Washington, DC. Later became 332 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: known as the Washington Flap, made front page headlines and 333 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: newspapers around the nation. A pilot and stewardess on a 334 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: National Airlines flight observed lights above their plane within minutes 335 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: both radar centers at National Airport and at Andrews Air 336 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 2: Force Base. We're tracking more unknown objects. 337 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: It's just funny about nineteen fifty two, because the admittedly 338 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: little research I've done. The CIA did get involved with 339 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: UFOs because there was concern that there were so many 340 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: sidings that they thought that Soviets were behind it because 341 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: at that time we could only have our missiles in 342 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: so many places, and they were afraid that this was 343 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: a Soviet trick that if everybody started reporting UFOs, that 344 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: the Soviets could lost a missile strike and we wouldn't 345 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: know what was real and what wasn't because of this 346 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: spate of UFO sidings. 347 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 3: Well, my question is it sounds like, from what I understand, 348 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 3: you're involved in this thing called the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance. 349 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about that and 350 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 3: is it similar to the Stars Academy because we have 351 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 3: a buddy, Jim Sen who's tied to that organization. 352 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: So, the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance is a new organization founded 353 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: by a guy named Steve Bassett, and Steve Bassett has 354 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: been the only full time UFO lobbyist in DC now 355 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: for I feel like twenty five or thirty years. He's 356 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: been the one dude that has been really pushing and 357 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: advocating for what we call disclosure, having the government come 358 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: out and say exactly what they know, go through the 359 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: history of this thing, etc. At the moment, it's not 360 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 2: very much. It's people who are in show business who 361 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 2: are interested in this topic, who maybe want a network 362 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: and collaborate and work to advance disclosure. But I think 363 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: it's important to note that, unlike the To the Stars 364 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: Academy founded by Tom DeLong, the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance has 365 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: no commercial stake in anything. They're not funding anything, they're 366 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: not taking a preprudasorial role in anything. They're basically just 367 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: a tax exempt organization trying to get people who are 368 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: interested in this to speak out, step forward, and so 369 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: that's what I'm doing. It's interesting from a political perspective 370 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: how the gang that's most interested in this right now 371 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: are very right wing conservatives timber Chet, Paulina Luna, Matt Gates, 372 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: and then there's a Democrat named Jared Moskowitz. They're on 373 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: this like a dog on a bone. And on the 374 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 2: Senate side, Oddly, the one who's been most vocal is 375 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: Marco Rubio, who has said I might be getting this wrong, 376 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: but either he or his staff have spoken to some 377 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: of these other whistleblowers aside from Grush, and they corroborate 378 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: what has been said. So it's all this shadowy, weird, 379 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 2: murky shit. And John, You're exactly right. You cannot separate 380 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: fact from fiction. Like the government as a whole doesn't 381 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: know what this is. Barack Obama said it on Colbert. 382 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: Actually that was James Corden, and here's a clip. 383 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 8: The truth is that when I came into office, I asked, right, 384 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 8: I was like, all right, is there the lab somewhere 385 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 8: where where cape the alien specimens in spaceship And you 386 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 8: know they did a little bit of research and the 387 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 8: answer was no. But what is true, and I'm actually 388 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 8: being serious here, is is that there's footage and records 389 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 8: of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly 390 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 8: what they are. We can't explain how they moved their trajectory. 391 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 8: They did not have an easily explainable pattern. And so 392 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 8: you know, I think that people still take seriously trying 393 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 8: to investigate and figure out what that is. 394 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 2: The ironic part about this is people in this field 395 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: who have been studying this have for decades been trying 396 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: to get other people interested in it and interested in 397 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: it in a serious way. So to have a comedian 398 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 2: come on and talk about it, it's sort of like, 399 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: am I cutting my own legs out from under? People 400 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 2: making jokes about it, you know, like you're not going 401 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: to hear me make any anal probe jokes, for example, 402 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: for exactly this reason. It's like we wanted to be 403 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: taken seriously because we think there's something there. 404 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 3: You don't take anal probe seriously. 405 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: I take them very seriously. But on the context of ets, I'm. 406 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: Over fifty, I take them serious. 407 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: Right. 408 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: So there was this, if you remember, there was this 409 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: quasi religious cult that was also into euphiology called Heaven's Gate. 410 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: Thirty six of them committed suicide. They thought that their 411 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: souls were going to go into an alien spaceship that 412 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: is trailing the hail Bop common. But before they did, though, 413 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: fifty of them took out something called alien Abduction Insurance, 414 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: which promised to pay out if they were abducted, impregnated, 415 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: or killed by aliens. And fifty of them insured themselves 416 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: to a million dollars each. 417 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: I'm guessing they didn't pay out. I mean, that's such 418 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: a great racket, because the great thing about alien adductees 419 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 2: is they can't prove it. They can only so if 420 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: you're the insurance company, you never have to pay out. 421 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: There's aspects of it like we didn't even come close 422 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: to touching. There's the extra temporal hypothesis, champion by guy 423 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: named doctor Mike Masters, who thinks this is all about 424 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: people from the future coming back and sight seeing essentially, 425 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: or trying to avert some sort of future crisis. There's 426 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: the extra dimensional theory, where these things are just sort 427 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: of living in our reality and we're just sort of 428 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 2: bumping up against it dimensionally. A Gresh alluded to that 429 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 2: in his testimony. I mean, it's just so crazy and 430 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: so bizarre, and I love it so much because it's 431 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: so weird. I mean, the universe is it's a pretty 432 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 2: big place. Like you could add up three Californias together 433 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: and you wouldn't even approach the size of the universe. 434 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: Michael, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you. 435 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: John Stern should have warned you. Michael's very serious when 436 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: it comes to UFOs. 437 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: Michael, you're the guy I want to be abducted by 438 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: aliens with. 439 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. 440 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 3: Oh that's nice. 441 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: I've never had that offer before, and I'm going to 442 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 2: take you up. 443 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 4: John Jerry. That was the famous Michael Lea and Black. 444 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 4: Was he everything I promised? 445 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: That is more? As always, I was really impressed with 446 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: the guy. I think he made some interesting arguments and can. 447 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 4: You believe he's also a performing comedian. 448 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: Well, that's what I respect about him. 449 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: The conspiracy theory business needs more more comedians. 450 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 4: But also there's more going on with these UFO reports recently, 451 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 4: isn't there. 452 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, there's been a lot of reports that we 453 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 3: talked about today about UAPs and the Senate and whistleblowers. 454 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 3: But there was a recent March eighth story in the 455 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 3: Washington Post and it's entitled Pentagon report finds no evidence 456 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 3: of alien visits or hidden spacecraft, and it says it 457 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: claims about secret government programs reverse engineering extraterrestrial technology are 458 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 3: based on quote, circular reporting and hearsay. But it's very, 459 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 3: very strongly suggests that the stuff that has been in 460 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 3: all these other reports just isn't true, which. 461 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: Means that there's no evidence or they're all in on it. 462 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: The Pentagon's in on it. How come they bring me 463 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: and you in because they wanted to keep it secret. 464 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: That's why they didn't bring us in on there. 465 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 3: And they brought us in on the Kennedy assassination. You 466 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 3: think they would have brought us in on the UAP thing. 467 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: So John, who have we got teed up to give 468 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: us the empirical scientific side of things, the no shit 469 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: show me proofside. 470 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: So today we have Seth Shasteck. He's the lead astronomer 471 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 3: at the SETI Institute, the host of the popular podcast 472 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: Big Picture Science, and a prolific author who's written a 473 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 3: number of books, one not too long ago called The 474 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 3: Confessions of an Alien Hunter. And so Seth, tell us 475 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 3: about yourself and the work that you've done related to 476 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,719 Speaker 3: UFOs or what they're now called UAP. 477 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 9: Well, my background, as you just heard, is astronomy, radio 478 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 9: astronomy actually, and on that basis, In fact, I was 479 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 9: hired maybe twenty or thirty years ago by the SETI Institute. 480 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 9: SETI it just means the search for extra terrestrial intelligence, 481 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 9: and the idea here is to use instruments that are 482 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 9: normally used for radio astronomy, in other words, big antennas, 483 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 9: to try and eavesdrop on any signals that might be 484 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 9: being produced by visitors to Earth, or perhaps by extraterrestrial 485 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 9: intelligence that's not visiting birth Seth. 486 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: In light of recent claims by people in front of Congress, 487 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: it seems to be there's an irony between the US 488 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,479 Speaker 1: government support for SETIO and claims that the government already 489 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: knows about extraterrestrial life and is hiding it from the public. 490 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: It seems like the US government is engaged in both 491 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: looking for life and then try to hide it at 492 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: the same time. 493 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 9: There's a lot of conspiratorial thinking. There seems to be 494 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 9: an underlying belief that if aliens were actually visiting Earth, 495 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 9: that the US government would try and keep that quiet. There's, 496 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 9: of course no way in which they could keep it quiet, 497 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 9: but a lot of people think they could and that 498 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 9: the federal agencies are up to the task. 499 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 3: But there's been a lot of recent activity to include 500 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 3: Congressional hearings and a lot of things that are supposed 501 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 3: quote unquote will blowers and things lately. Why do you 502 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: think that is and why now? 503 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 9: Well, I don't really know the answer to that. It 504 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 9: isn't that the government suddenly took an interest in this. 505 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 9: I testified to Congress myself twice about the whole UFO phenomenon. 506 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 9: And keep in mind that Congress is made up of politicians, 507 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 9: not scientists, so they ask questions that are from a 508 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 9: science perspective somewhat elementary. 509 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: Let's take a breather and back in a moment, and 510 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: we're back. Just sticking with Grush for a while. He's 511 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: claiming that for the past seventy nine years, the federal 512 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: government has kept this secret about space aliens, and that 513 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: we've got materials. They keep using terms like biomass and 514 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: so forth. I'm telling you that, having spent thirty three 515 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: years inside of CIA, it would be virtually impossible to 516 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: keep a secret like that from leaking out. People getting 517 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: drunk with each other, you know, or people getting married. NCIA. 518 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: We'll stay with a job for three or four years, 519 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: and then we'll move on to another one, So people 520 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: would cycle through some of these offices, so there would 521 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: literally be tens of thousands of people who would know 522 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: this well. 523 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 9: I've worked for the federal government in the past. I 524 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 9: even had secret clearance, actually, and I don't believe that 525 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 9: the federal government could keep something like this quiet for decades. 526 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 9: But you don't have to believe that. I think that 527 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 9: the real point is not so much whether the government 528 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 9: is keeping things quiet, but the fact that if we 529 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 9: were being visited, it wouldn't just be the federal government 530 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 9: that would have the evidence. This is a mistake that 531 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 9: the public generally makes that only the military or the 532 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 9: agencies inside the government would know if aliens were visiting Earth. 533 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 9: If aliens are visiting Earth, everybody would know. They're like 534 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 9: eight hundred satellites around our planet these days, and most 535 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 9: of them have cameras that are looking down. If there 536 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 9: were aliens spacecraft buzzing around, they would see that. And 537 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 9: those are not all American spacecraft. The Europeans have lots 538 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 9: of them in Japanese. Why is it that do you 539 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 9: think the government would get this secret? And I've never 540 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 9: gotten an answer to that other than that, well, you know, 541 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 9: it would disquiet the public. The public couldn't handle the news, 542 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 9: which is kind of nonsense, because one after another surveys 543 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 9: of the public's attitudes on these subjects show that the 544 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 9: majority of them believe that this is happening, and they 545 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 9: don't seem to be riding in the streets about it. Now. 546 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 3: That's one of the other things. In one of your 547 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: recent writings, I noticed you were talking about this sort 548 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 3: of group of recent quote unquote whistleblowers. And one of 549 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 3: the things you say, which I tend to agree with, 550 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: is whenever this kind of extraordinary claim is made, there's 551 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 3: never any follow up or evidence, and they just say that, well, 552 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 3: that material is classified. And it's quite handy to say 553 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 3: something that's really out there and just say, well that's classified, 554 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: so therefore and so, just to get to the overclassification issue, 555 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 3: it seems like Senator Schumer recently has tried to push 556 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 3: a bill on forcing the government to disclose the Congress 557 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 3: what it knows about these type of things. And as 558 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: you know, Harry Read one of the previous has the 559 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 3: Senate too also was very interested in this issue and 560 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 3: wanted to pushed towards either declassifying or including the Congress 561 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 3: in these type of things. 562 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 9: You know, these statements. I watched this fellow, David Grush 563 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 9: claim that the federal government had teams of people that 564 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 9: were routinely going out and recovering crash debris from alien spacecraft. 565 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 9: And if it were true, at least a science community 566 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 9: would have access to these materials. I mean, what could 567 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 9: be more interesting than to study materials that had been 568 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 9: brought to Earth by another species? 569 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 3: Right? 570 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 9: And why would you keep that classified in the first place. 571 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 9: There's really no reason to do so, it's something you 572 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 9: would want, as many scientists as possible to study. When 573 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 9: they say things like well it's all classified, that's very convenient, 574 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 9: but it's hard to believe that the Aliens have arranged 575 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 9: things that only one federal agency has proof of their visits. 576 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: So set the last couple of days, I've talked to 577 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: some friends of mine who were formerly in CIA but 578 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: in the S and T director the Science and Technology Directorate, 579 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: and I got some interesting response and let me outline 580 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: a scenario for you and have you like address it. 581 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: So the Russians have a satellite, or the Chinese or 582 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: the North Koreans and say that satellite was to crash 583 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: in the Gobi Desert or in Kazakhstan, and we wanted 584 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: to get a hold of that to understand the latest 585 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: Russian technology or whatever. It is conceivable that working with 586 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: special forces, it would be CIA because we have a presence. 587 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: Let's just run with Mongolia, Gobi Desert. I'm just completely 588 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: making this up. We probably wouldn't want to tell the 589 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: Mongolian government that that's there because it would leap back 590 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: to the Russians, and we might want to use the 591 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: CIA presence in Mongolia if there is one, to bring 592 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: in a special forces team to go to the site 593 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, find a way cover way 594 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: to get out there. And if there was a site, 595 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: the craft would really be debris, right, and we would 596 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: be interested in acquiring the materials to see what are 597 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: the Russians using, what are the polymers on this and 598 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: so forth. They would acquire this material, bring it back, 599 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: and yet it probably would go to some element inside 600 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: a CIA. He's claiming it's this thing called OGA Office 601 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: of Global Access and it would be shared with the 602 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: scientific community inside of CIAS and grush. If you look 603 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: at his actual whistleblower complaint, it says that he was 604 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: denied access to programs that they didn't want to read 605 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: him into. If we were acquiring a Russian satellite or 606 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: bits of it, that would be a program we probably 607 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't tell about because it's not a UAP. It's completely identified. 608 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: We know what it is, and we know where it was, 609 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: and we know what we got, and so that really 610 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: doesn't fall into his Bailey Wick ause a UAP, and 611 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: of course we would try to keep that very controlled. 612 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 3: Well. 613 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 9: I guess I would come back Jerry to what I 614 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 9: said before. I'm not disputing the fact that a government 615 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 9: agency like the CIA could keep something secret. I certainly 616 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 9: hope they can keep something secret, to be honest, but 617 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 9: it's not clear to me why alien spacecraft would be 618 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 9: something they'd want to keep secret. You would want every 619 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 9: scientist with any expertise in the matter to be studying this. 620 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 9: There's obviously no security threat. The aliens are not blowing 621 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 9: up our cities or anything like that. It's an American tendency. 622 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 9: I've lived in other parts of the world, and it 623 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 9: isn't the same there to want to think that the 624 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 9: government is keeping stuff from them. Americans like that idea. 625 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 9: It's an idea that's fairly unknown in Europe at least, 626 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 9: but here it's very commonplace that we like to think 627 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 9: that the government doesn't play straight with us. But in 628 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 9: the case of alien visitation, that isn't really so much 629 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 9: a government thing as it is a science thing. 630 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: Secretly recovering a Russian satellite that has crashed somewhere. 631 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 3: We do do that, Jerry, if if a satellite crashes, 632 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,239 Speaker 3: or a drone or a nuclear weapon goes astray, the 633 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 3: SAA is involved in trying to go coach. 634 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: And if we would try to keep that quiet and 635 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: people could draw conclusions from that, it's much sexier to say, oh, 636 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: if they're not telling us what it is, it must 637 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: be an alien satellite, as opposed to like a North 638 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: and craft that crashed. 639 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: I think these conspiracy theories have moved to the place 640 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 3: where they've created this really strong notion that there's this 641 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: deep state that's working somehow against the interests of regular people. 642 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: And what's frustrating to me, who spend almost thirty years 643 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 3: in the CIA, is everybody I know, they're the good 644 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 3: and the bad, and the smart and the dumb. Everybody 645 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: believe they're working on behalf of the American people and 646 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 3: took that job really, really seriously, and believe that they 647 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 3: had to inform the Congress and had to inform the 648 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 3: political leaders, and they took that job incredibly serious. So 649 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: this notion that there's this sort of evil Cabala people 650 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 3: hiding things from the American public. We're hiding things because 651 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: we're trying to do things on behalf of the American public. 652 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 3: And it's hard to imagine how hiding UFOs would be 653 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 3: part of that process. 654 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: It sounds right to me now that we all walk 655 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: around with cameras right on our cell phones. How come, 656 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: there's no great photographs now of UFO, of UAPs whizz't around, right, 657 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: We've got all these from the nineteen fifties, these grainy pictures. 658 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: But now that everybody but he's got like one of 659 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: these things, and when they see it, they can be 660 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: geolocated and they can take pictures of it. Thousands of 661 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: people can take pictures of it. They seem to have 662 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: like disappeared sort of. 663 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 9: It was noted by somebody who was writing for I 664 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 9: think Skeptic magazine or whatever that with every improvement in 665 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 9: the camera technology that we carry around in our pocket 666 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 9: and every improvement of that, the alien stepped back a 667 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 9: little a little bit to make sure that the photos plan. 668 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: I have heard several times people throw out, in a 669 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: dish gallop the robertsond panel as if like, ah, that 670 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: proves it. So I went and I took a look 671 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: at what this is, and yeah, there's actually a touch 672 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: of truth in it that the robertsid panel set. In 673 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, apparently there was this huge spate of 674 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: UFO sightings and people were calling it in and CIA 675 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: did get involved. The concern was that it was overloading 676 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: our ability At the time to protect our ourselves from 677 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: incoming Soviet nuclear missiles, like we were only able to 678 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: protect ourselves so much, and this was actually interfering with 679 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: our ability to protect ourselves, they said at the time, 680 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: and CIA apparently and it's been completely declassified, he as 681 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: he can go read it. But CIA at the time 682 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: recommended that in order to protect ourselves from a nuclear attack, 683 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: it would be good if there weren't quite so many 684 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: false reports, and that maybe there should be a program 685 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: to inform the American public, like how to deal with 686 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: these and to debunk some of these claims these were 687 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: experimental aircraft and so forth, and that this might be 688 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: a good thing to do. And this then has morphed 689 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: into the CIA as early as fifty two saying that 690 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: we had to lie and engage in a disinformation campaign 691 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: against American people, when actually what the statement was at 692 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: the time was completely the opposite. And this comes into 693 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: what Grussia is saying, saying that the US government is 694 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: involved in murder of people wanting to talk about this, 695 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: that he's personally worried that the agency, the CIA is 696 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 1: involved with this huge campaign of disinformation against the American people, 697 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: that we're illegally for the last eighty years have been 698 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: withholding information from Congress, which gets pretty awful and destructive 699 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: to our body politic. Part of what Grush and so 700 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: others are asserting is that we have these crafts we 701 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: being the US government, the scientific community, I assume, and 702 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: that we have been reverse engineering the technology and materials. 703 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: So how would that even work? 704 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 9: I think you've already stumbled up on what the true 705 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 9: answer is, because, look, you could liken this to giving 706 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 9: Neanderthals a laptop. Somebody could argue, Okay, these Neanderthals are 707 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 9: going to reverse engineer that, and they'll be making their 708 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 9: own laptops soon enough. They're probably never going to be 709 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 9: able to reverse engineer it, right, you know, I don't 710 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 9: think we would be able to reverse engineer alien technology 711 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 9: because it would be at least thousands of years more 712 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 9: advanced than where we are, and we just wouldn't have 713 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 9: the basic understandings of that technology to allow us to 714 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 9: reverse engineer. 715 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: And the people who would look at it running with 716 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: this scenario, they'd all be the top scientists and none 717 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: of these guys are going to keep their mouth shut. 718 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 3: But none of you guys worked on the Kennedy assassination 719 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 3: like I did. You don't understand how we can. 720 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 9: That was just a low level functionary in Dallas. 721 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 3: Well if we can, if we can take these things 722 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: and re engineer them for weapons use, then we better 723 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 3: hurry up and give it to the goddamn Ukrainians. 724 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: For CHRISTI I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, So s 725 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: with SETI. You're actually involved in a scientific, peer reviewed, 726 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: provable science to look for extraterrestrial life, whatever that is, 727 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: or signs of it. So what is the government and 728 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: what are you doing in SETI doing to actually look 729 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: for signs of life at a more serious level. 730 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 9: If you're talking about life beyond Earth. What we're doing 731 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 9: is we're continuing to build bacecraft to crawl around or 732 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 9: just sit on the surface of Mars, for example, because 733 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 9: Mars seems to be the most likely place in our 734 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 9: Solar system to have produced life. We send a lot 735 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 9: of hardware to Mars. We also send hardware to Venus, 736 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 9: which is slightly closer, but you know, Venus, it doesn't 737 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 9: have an appealing environment for life, so Venus gets a 738 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 9: little less attention than Mars. But we're trying to find 739 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 9: that out. And the question we're trying to answer is 740 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 9: not whether aliens are planting hardware on Mars. We're trying 741 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 9: to find out whether life in fact can't get started 742 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 9: on a world like Mars, and whether it has. Okay, 743 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 9: that's just a purely science question. It isn't going to 744 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 9: affect your plans for the weekend. So maybe a better 745 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 9: scheme is to do what is awful being done, and 746 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 9: that's SETI, of course, where we just use big antennas 747 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 9: to try and see if there's any radio traffic bouncing 748 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 9: around our part of the galaxy. 749 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 3: Have you found anything? 750 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 9: If we had, you'd know it. 751 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: Seth, it's been really great talking with you. When we 752 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: find intelligent life, we'll have you on along with the 753 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: alien hopefully. And said, do you know why aliens don't 754 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: come at Christmas time? 755 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 3: Oh? 756 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: Here goes. 757 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 9: I can't say I do. 758 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: They don't want to give away their presence. I'm sorry. 759 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: You got three kids. 760 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 3: They love that stuff. Yeah, I bet they do. Now 761 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 3: let's speak with our producer, Adam Davidson and try to 762 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 3: sort this all out together. 763 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: Welcome back, Adam, fresh off your spaceship. 764 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 5: Fresh off the spaceship. I'm out here in the countryside. 765 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 5: It has been a weird couple of years for the 766 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 5: alien curious. Can we really think this through? If you 767 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 5: were at CIA right now and you were in a 768 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 5: meeting and someone said, okay, we just got irrefutable proof 769 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 5: if our satellites picked up something in Kazakhstan or whatever, 770 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 5: would the instinct be all right, we got to keep 771 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 5: this hush hush. 772 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: Well, we'd probably talk about it over beers with some 773 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: of our friends in Vienna, Virginia, the Vienna Inn. We'd 774 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 1: all have beers about it, and we wouldn't say aliens, 775 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: but we would like probably allude to it. Right, It's 776 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: not something that we would keep secret among ourselves. 777 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 5: But the much more specific question is has anyone come here? 778 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 5: And is it being covered up? 779 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: And why are they such bad drivers that they keep 780 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 1: crashing right right right? 781 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 5: So what do you think? Do you think aliens have 782 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 5: come to Earth? 783 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 3: It's sort of like religion, Like you know, I can't 784 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 3: prove it. I'm skeptical, but I also do want to 785 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 3: say that it would be wrong for me to say 786 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 3: there's not things that are larger than me or that 787 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 3: I can never understand, And so I just think we 788 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 3: have to keep an open mind look at these things. 789 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 3: Take our time, assume that there's always things that we're 790 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 3: not going to be able to figure out right away. 791 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: The bird to proof is still on the people making 792 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: the assertions without definitive evidence, and as intelligence officers, I 793 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: want the definitive evidence and then I'll believe it. I'll 794 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: be happy about it. 795 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 3: Well, what, it's interesting even within the government. So Jerry 796 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 3: and I both worked for thirty years in the government 797 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 3: in this secret side, right, neither of us know anything 798 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 3: about this. So somehow, if there's this thing happened, and 799 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 3: it's a certain part of the CIA and intelligence agencies 800 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 3: found this out out and have been able to keep 801 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 3: it from the rest of us. And so I had 802 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 3: never heard anything about any of this when I was inside. Now, 803 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 3: obviously they probably didn't want to tell me because I 804 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 3: would blather it to somebody else. But if it's true, 805 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 3: it's unusual how well it's been kept secret. 806 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: And it gets even more difficult if some of the 807 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: assertions are that it has been so for the last 808 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: seventy years, that in seventy years no one has said anything, 809 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,479 Speaker 1: and I find that highly implausible. I find it highly 810 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: implausible that that Barack Obama and Donald Trump and Joe 811 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: Biden that all of them would look at this and go, well, 812 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything because I don't know why. 813 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 3: Right after they saw what we did to Kennedy, I 814 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 3: think they know. 815 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 2: To keep. 816 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 4: So, guys, this is John Stern. I've been listening the 817 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 4: whole time, and I have a question, very practical question. 818 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 4: If I came across evidence of a UFO, or I 819 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 4: saw one and I got a great photo of it, 820 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 4: what should I do? 821 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: Who should I call? 822 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 3: That's a great question. You should call Davidson, and it 823 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 3: should be journalists should look into this. If I saw something, 824 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 3: I wouldn't automatically go to the government. 825 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 4: Frankly, how about Juliani? Should I give it to him first? 826 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, give it to his Russian handlers. 827 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 4: But don't give it to the government because they'll cover 828 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 4: it up. 829 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 5: You're saying just like you already did. That's what I'm hearing. 830 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 5: Like I didn't believe in it, but now I do, 831 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 5: because you said exactly what you would have said if 832 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 5: you were sworn to secrecy. 833 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 3: All right, Well, I don't know that we've solved this one. 834 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 3: This is a biggie and you may come back to 835 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 3: pieces of this later, but thank you all, and we'll 836 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 3: see you next time on Mission Implausible. 837 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Cipher, 838 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 4: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. 839 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 4: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for 840 00:42:55,239 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 4: iHeartMedia B