WEBVTT - Rosslyn Chapel

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<v Speaker 1>What do the Holy Grail, Knights, Templar and aliens all

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<v Speaker 1>have in common? Answer? They all may be connected with

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<v Speaker 1>Roslin Chapel, our fifteenth century chapel just down the road

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<v Speaker 1>from Edinburgh. Among other things, it's famous for appearing in

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<v Speaker 1>the best selling book The Da Vinci Code. Here to

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<v Speaker 1>help me unpick the mysteries is Chapel Director Ian Gardner.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. Ian,

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<v Speaker 1>I think we should start by you just contextualizing yourself

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<v Speaker 1>as far as the chapel and how you fit in

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<v Speaker 1>with everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you for inviting me on. My name is Ian.

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<v Speaker 2>Roslin Chapel has been here since fourteen forty six. The

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<v Speaker 2>building is still owned by the Sinclair family, but in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety five they set up a charitable trust to

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<v Speaker 2>look after the building, to look after its conservation and

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<v Speaker 2>organize its public opening. So there's a team of nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ten of us. I hid up the trust so we

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<v Speaker 2>look after the building and open it to visitors.

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<v Speaker 1>Official title Chapel Director.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, Director of Roslyn Chapel Trust.

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<v Speaker 1>I've never spoken to a chapel director before. I'm feeling

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<v Speaker 1>very very privileged because the place is amazing. Just doing

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<v Speaker 1>my small research, you have got everything in this chapel.

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<v Speaker 1>There is historic nights, there's aliens. That's the first one

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get on too. We haven't actually talked

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<v Speaker 1>about aliens on the podcast before. And this chapel is

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<v Speaker 1>essentially what people think is a stargate to another world,

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<v Speaker 1>another dimension, please tell business.

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<v Speaker 2>Some people do, and I think that is part of

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that the building has captured the imaginations of

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<v Speaker 2>people for generations. So some people attribute all kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>things to the building. We don't think that it is

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<v Speaker 2>a portal to another world, but some people do.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's disappointing starts off.

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<v Speaker 2>But for some people they do, and that's absolutely fine.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think one of the great things about the

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<v Speaker 2>chapel is that there are so many ways to interpret

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<v Speaker 2>the building. It's full of medieval stone carvings. We don't

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<v Speaker 2>have the definitive plan of what each of these means,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's really down to visitors to draw their own

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<v Speaker 2>conclusions about what carvings depict and even why the building

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<v Speaker 2>is is here. It was built as a family church

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<v Speaker 2>back in the mid fifteenth century, but it's incredibly ornate,

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<v Speaker 2>so there's speculation that it was built really as a

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<v Speaker 2>status symbol because the Sinclayers were wealthy and powerful and

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<v Speaker 2>well educated. Other people will say, no, it was built

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<v Speaker 2>to house treasures, to be a safe deposit for treasures,

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<v Speaker 2>so and that's why it was so ornate. So even

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<v Speaker 2>when you look at the building and why it was

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<v Speaker 2>here their speculation, one thing we do think is that

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<v Speaker 2>it was built high on a hill so that people

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<v Speaker 2>could look at the building, admire it and be in

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<v Speaker 2>awe of Sir William Sinclair of his ability to create

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<v Speaker 2>this chapel. The family lived in a castle which is

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<v Speaker 2>about The ruins of the castle are about ten minutes

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<v Speaker 2>walk from here, so they could have had their chapel

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<v Speaker 2>at the side of the castle, but actually then no

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<v Speaker 2>one would have seen it, and so by having it

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<v Speaker 2>built high on a hill, it meant that people would

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<v Speaker 2>be able to see it to be in awe of

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<v Speaker 2>the family and of what they could achieve. And the

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<v Speaker 2>building was never finished, so William wanted to have a

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<v Speaker 2>much bigger building, but when he died, his son who

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<v Speaker 2>inherited it, just finished off the part that had been created.

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<v Speaker 2>So we've only got a portion of what his vision was.

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<v Speaker 1>What could have been so fifteenth century peacocking is what

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<v Speaker 1>they say when you're trying to pick up girls in clubs,

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<v Speaker 1>you wear like really flashy hats or like flashy shirts

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<v Speaker 1>to sort of go, hey, look how good I am. Peacocking.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is him just doing peacocking, but just with

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<v Speaker 1>a chapel.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it is he wanted to secure his place

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<v Speaker 2>in heaven.

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<v Speaker 1>That's interesting you're saying about securious place in heaven, as

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<v Speaker 1>if God is looking down on the people with all

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<v Speaker 1>their chapels and what they've done to him. Because there's

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<v Speaker 1>some people who would go, now, what God would wants

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<v Speaker 1>us to do would be very minimalist and just to

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<v Speaker 1>sort of small, humble prayer room, or some people then going, now,

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<v Speaker 1>what God really wants is some proper big old statues

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<v Speaker 1>and stained glass windows and ornate carvings. At what points

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<v Speaker 1>in history did people change their mind and what God

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<v Speaker 1>was actually wanting them to do?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's always been open to interpretation. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>so from very humble churches to very large cathedrals. People

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<v Speaker 2>have built churches to kind of suit there at different

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<v Speaker 2>times of history. What's interesting here, I suppose one of

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<v Speaker 2>the perks of my job is to occasionally get up

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<v Speaker 2>on the roof and see parts of the building that

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<v Speaker 2>other visitors don't, And you see carvings up there which

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<v Speaker 2>no one else can see. They're kind of tucked away

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<v Speaker 2>on the roof of the building, but they're there because

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<v Speaker 2>God presumably could see them, and that was all part

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<v Speaker 2>of Sir William's his vision to have this building more

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<v Speaker 2>elaborate than anybody else's.

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<v Speaker 1>Obviously, either God seeing them or possibly the aliens seeing

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<v Speaker 1>them from out of space is the other angle you

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<v Speaker 1>could take.

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<v Speaker 2>There, all open to interpretation.

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<v Speaker 1>What sort of carvings are these things? Were we talking?

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<v Speaker 1>Are there little green men walking around?

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<v Speaker 2>There?

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<v Speaker 1>Are?

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<v Speaker 2>There are green men, but of a kind of different

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<v Speaker 2>green maine, so they medieval green maine. Are not the

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<v Speaker 2>tree bloke, These are the tree guy. These are faces

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<v Speaker 2>with leaves and vines coming out of them. So we

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<v Speaker 2>do have our own green maine. And it's not unusual

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<v Speaker 2>tentacles churches of this siege have green maine faces. We

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<v Speaker 2>have over a hundred of them, so it's very unusual

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<v Speaker 2>to have so many. But yeah, we do have our

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<v Speaker 2>own green main but not not of an alien kind.

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<v Speaker 2>And people have said that, you know, there's so many

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<v Speaker 2>things buried underneath the chapel, and in fact, anything you've

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<v Speaker 2>ever lost might well be buried underneath the chapel. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's where the kind of alien dimension comes in.

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<v Speaker 2>The portal to another world.

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<v Speaker 1>Or just a bunch of TV remote controls and the

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<v Speaker 1>back of couches. All these carvings and various the artistry

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<v Speaker 1>does mean that people do believe in this sort of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>and so you must get lots of interesting characters turning

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<v Speaker 1>up at the chapel wanting to do all sorts of

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<v Speaker 1>various things over the years. Can you give me sort

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<v Speaker 1>of a few stories of some of the various people

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<v Speaker 1>who have cropped up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we get a great mix of people. And before

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<v Speaker 2>the pandemic we were welcoming about one hundred and eighty

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<v Speaker 2>thousand people a year, so it's a busy spot.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>People come for all different reasons. We had somebody back

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<v Speaker 2>in the midst of time who believed that the Holy

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<v Speaker 2>Griel was hidden in one of the pillars of the chapel,

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<v Speaker 2>so he chained himself to the pillar and the staff

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<v Speaker 2>locked the doors, and I think that was more skeay

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<v Speaker 2>for him than anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, they just let him stay in there over the evening.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think eventually the police are ruding. But yes,

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<v Speaker 2>we get people coming up with all kinds of beliefs.

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<v Speaker 2>The chapel is still a working church. It's part of

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<v Speaker 2>the Scottish Episcopal Church. It is still a place of worship.

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<v Speaker 2>It is still used as a church. But people come

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<v Speaker 2>really for all kinds of reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>Hopefully at different times. Is there a particular part of

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<v Speaker 1>the chapel that people think might be the Star Game?

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<v Speaker 2>People think that they're still called Lee lines Energy lines.

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<v Speaker 2>People think that that are parts of the building where

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<v Speaker 2>you can feel different types of energy. But again it's

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<v Speaker 2>all down to individuals.

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<v Speaker 1>We've been on a ghost hunt on this podcast before

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<v Speaker 1>and the word there's an energy gets brought up quite

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, quite a vague term scientifically, Isn't it just

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<v Speaker 1>oh no, there's just a feeling over in this corridor

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<v Speaker 1>that there might be something extra.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it is and I think it is just

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<v Speaker 2>a feeling.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about the carvings then, and who actually did

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<v Speaker 1>the carvings? Who's responsible for that?

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<v Speaker 2>So the building was founded by Sir Williamson clear The

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<v Speaker 2>Sinclair's were Viking family by origin. They traveled over to

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<v Speaker 2>Normandy and they came to Scotland in the year ten seventies.

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<v Speaker 2>So Sir Williamson Clear who was the member of the

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<v Speaker 2>family in the mid fifteenth century, he created the chapel

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<v Speaker 2>and we think he was very influential. He was almost

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<v Speaker 2>the architect, working with the master mason to decide which

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<v Speaker 2>carvings were created and where they would go.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the master mason who got a bit jelly

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<v Speaker 1>by the end of it with one of his apprentices.

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<v Speaker 2>Well there's a legend. Yeah, there's a great legend. There

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<v Speaker 2>are three pillars leading into the Lady Chapel.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the lady chapel?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in the medieval Catholic church, that would have been

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<v Speaker 2>the part dedicated to Mary. One of the carving one

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<v Speaker 2>of the pillars was carved by the master mason, and

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<v Speaker 2>the one nearest the high altar, which would have been

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of prime location. He couldn't decide what to

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<v Speaker 2>do with that one. So he was allowed by the

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<v Speaker 2>family to go and travel to see what other churches

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<v Speaker 2>and cathedrals had in Europe. And legend is that off

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<v Speaker 2>he went to find out. Nobody knew if he would

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<v Speaker 2>come back or not. And while he was away, his

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<v Speaker 2>apprentice was said to have had a vision, and in

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<v Speaker 2>his dream he saw this pillar with vines swirling round

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<v Speaker 2>it and dragons at the base of it. And the

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<v Speaker 2>family thought that that looks that looks great, and so

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<v Speaker 2>he was allowed to create this pillar. And when the

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<v Speaker 2>master mason did come back, the legend is that rather

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<v Speaker 2>than being proud of what his apprentice had done, he

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<v Speaker 2>was said to be furious, and he was said to

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<v Speaker 2>have struck him with a mallet and kill them on

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<v Speaker 2>the spot, And then the master mason was said to

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<v Speaker 2>have been put to death for murder. He would think

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<v Speaker 2>he would have been proud that his his teaching had

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<v Speaker 2>produced this work of art, but the legend is that

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<v Speaker 2>he flew into a rage and killed his apprentice. He

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<v Speaker 2>was ready to come back and create his pillar. He

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<v Speaker 2>was coming back, ready to do it, and found that

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<v Speaker 2>it had already been done.

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<v Speaker 1>So he decided to turn the apprentice mason into a

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<v Speaker 1>pillar himself and carved him.

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<v Speaker 2>Up exactly exactly, And.

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<v Speaker 1>Again, did you do it with a chisel? We think

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<v Speaker 1>it's probably a mallet, much much much nicer.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a number of cathedrals and churches that have got

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of legend, but we do know that at

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<v Speaker 2>the time the Archbishop of Saint Andrew's was given people

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<v Speaker 2>authority to reconsecrate part of the chapel because of bloodshed.

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<v Speaker 2>So maybe there is some truth in that story of

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<v Speaker 2>the murdered apprentice. We don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm worried. Do you have an apprentice under you? I'm

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<v Speaker 1>imagining you as the chapel director going abroad for holiday

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<v Speaker 1>or something, and whatever your equivalent of a pillar is,

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<v Speaker 1>and then some person in the cast has just come

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<v Speaker 1>and done your job better, and then you just bludge

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<v Speaker 1>them to death. I don't know, just to keep the

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<v Speaker 1>traditions of the chapel going.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very risky place to work.

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<v Speaker 1>All the mallets and all the carvings made from plastic

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<v Speaker 1>cutloring just a safeguard everything. There's also a conspiracy theory

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<v Speaker 1>that all these carvings make up a musical score.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. There was a local father and son, the Mitchells,

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<v Speaker 2>Tommy and Stuart Mitchell, who came up with a theory

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<v Speaker 2>about a state of carvings in the Lady Chapel. We

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<v Speaker 2>were just talking about that where the apprentice pillar is

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<v Speaker 2>and in that part of the chapel there's a whole

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<v Speaker 2>series of musical angels. There's carvings of angels playing different

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<v Speaker 2>instruments because we're in Scotland, there's a carving of an

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<v Speaker 2>angel playing bagpipes, and through a process known as cimatics,

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<v Speaker 2>they developed a musical score which was based on the

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<v Speaker 2>notes that they deciphered from these cubes, and they produced

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<v Speaker 2>a piece of music called the Roslin Mote. It it's

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<v Speaker 2>been performed here, it's available as a CD, it's been

0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:29.600
<v Speaker 2>featured on various TV programs. Now, whether that was part

0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>of the plan or whether it's a coincidence, again, we

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.680
<v Speaker 2>don't know, but it's it's a great piece of music.

0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.760
<v Speaker 2>That's something that they've deciphered as the Roslin note.

0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.719
<v Speaker 1>Well, even if that isn't true that the it was

0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:45.160
<v Speaker 1>meant to be a musical score, the fact that they

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:46.959
<v Speaker 1>have made a musical score out of it is sort

0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.720
<v Speaker 1>of good enough anyway. That's that's wonderful in itself.

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, I think it is. And you know, it's

0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:56.800
<v Speaker 2>been performed here, and people really like the story that

0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 2>the research that's gone into it, the a huge amount

0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.400
<v Speaker 2>of work they put into it. So yes, it is

0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:14.320
<v Speaker 2>a great story and a great tribute to them.

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.080
<v Speaker 1>The other big thing the chapel's got going on is,

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:22.000
<v Speaker 1>of course the Knights, Templar and the Holy Grail. Now,

0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 1>last time I did my research, I was pretty sure

0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 1>that the Holy Grail was dissolving Nazis in a temple

0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.640
<v Speaker 1>with Indiana Jones. But there is also a conspiracy that

0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 1>it's in the chapel somewhere.

0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.559
<v Speaker 2>There's lots of different theories about what the Holy Grail is,

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of people connect the Holy Grail to

0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Roslyn Chapel because of an author called Dan Brown. He

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:49.280
<v Speaker 2>wrote The da Vinci Court and at the ag I'm

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.080
<v Speaker 2>not going to give it away if you've not read

0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.280
<v Speaker 2>it or seen the film, but at the end, the

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 2>characters come to Roslin Chapel as they're on their search

0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:01.080
<v Speaker 2>for the Grail, and after they came here where thousands

0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 2>more people came to visit the chapel as a result,

0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.080
<v Speaker 2>But as far as we know, nobody's been able to

0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.720
<v Speaker 2>find it yet. Walter Scott wrote about the chapel and

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 2>he talked about the Barons of Roslin being laid out

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 2>on their armor. So we think that there are former

0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Sinclair Knights buried underneath the chapel. We think that in

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the sixteenth century the Sinclair's looked after treasures which were

0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 2>taken from Holyrood in Edinburgh. They were kept here for safekeeping.

0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Nobody knows if they came here or indeed if they

0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.840
<v Speaker 2>were returned, so there might still be treasures of a

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 2>different kind buried underneath the chapel. And we know that

0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.600
<v Speaker 2>in the sixteenth century Mariya of Geese wrote to the

0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:49.280
<v Speaker 2>family thanking them for showing her and sharing with her

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 2>the secrets of Roslin, but we don't know what they were.

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 2>But for someone as significant as that, it's great that

0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:58.520
<v Speaker 2>we've got that letter from her.

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.320
<v Speaker 1>Could we just explain to any listeners who don't know

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.440
<v Speaker 1>what exactly is the Holy Grail and who exactly are

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:07.280
<v Speaker 1>the Knights Templar.

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 2>One of the theories there's the Holy Grail is the

0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 2>cup that was used by Jesus at the Last Supper.

0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.400
<v Speaker 2>There are other theories that it was the actually the

0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.080
<v Speaker 2>bloodline of Christ. That's part of the story that was

0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 2>developed in the Da Vinci Code. But I think most

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 2>people most sort of artistic impressions are of a cup

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 2>or a goblet of some.

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 1>Kind, and the Knights Templar.

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, they were the ones who protected the temple of Solomon,

0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 2>and they became incredibly powerful and wealthy, and almost two

0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 2>powerful and wealthy. So they were dissolved in the early

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>fourteenth century by the King of France. Scotland at that

0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.320
<v Speaker 2>time had been excommunicated by the Pope, so Scotland was

0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.080
<v Speaker 2>seen as a kind of safe destinations. So we think

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 2>that some of the Templars did come to Scotland. There's

0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 2>a village not far from here which is known as

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Temple and that was the Scottish headquarters of the Templars. So,

0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.560
<v Speaker 2>and that there are various carvings inside the chapel which

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:21.520
<v Speaker 2>could have connections. They could have meaning an interpretation to

0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:23.040
<v Speaker 2>Nights Templar.

0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:26.280
<v Speaker 1>I heard they had massive beads and then when they

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:28.720
<v Speaker 1>got found out, they'd shave them off and go into

0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:29.320
<v Speaker 1>sort of hiding.

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Sounds good disguise, isn't it.

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 1>It's not bad, It's not bad. How do they manage

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.240
<v Speaker 1>to get so powerful, these nights Templar well by going

0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 1>around taking over places?

0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think so, I think so. Yeah, And they

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>looked after this route to Solomon's temple, and you know,

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.960
<v Speaker 2>for lots of pilgrims. That was a very important route

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 2>for them, and the templars where they became money lenders.

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, they became incredibly rich in power, and that

0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:02.040
<v Speaker 2>was really their downfall.

0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.040
<v Speaker 1>What's so good about Solomon's Temple? Why do they love

0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:06.560
<v Speaker 1>it so much?

0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.199
<v Speaker 2>Then? The Bible, the Temple of Solomon is is the

0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of the place where the arc of the Covenant

0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>and all sorts of treasures would have been kept.

0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 1>Because there's lots of treasure in there exactly. The Night

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Sempler are quite often portrayed as villainous more than good though,

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:26.760
<v Speaker 1>Is that fair to say?

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think so. I think there's so much interest

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:36.480
<v Speaker 2>in the Templars. I think there their basic premise was

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.800
<v Speaker 2>was based on good. They were trying to look after

0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.760
<v Speaker 2>this place and provide a safe passage for people going there.

0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.760
<v Speaker 2>But I think I think just then they became victims

0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.200
<v Speaker 2>of their own success and and as I say, became

0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:55.320
<v Speaker 2>incredibly rich and powerful and became a threat to the

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.120
<v Speaker 2>establishment in other countries.

0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.680
<v Speaker 1>If you were to pick between one of the conspiracies

0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 1>being true, Holy Grail or Aliens, which one would you pick?

0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.159
<v Speaker 2>I think there's probably more to the Holy Grail and treasures.

0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.560
<v Speaker 2>I think the fact that we've got letters from people,

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:26.760
<v Speaker 2>very significant people acknowledging that they've been shown secrets, so

0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.280
<v Speaker 2>I you know, it may well be that there are

0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:30.040
<v Speaker 2>treasures you have.

0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.159
<v Speaker 1>You have as as as the kids would say, you

0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.320
<v Speaker 1>have the receipts of people.

0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.879
<v Speaker 2>You have some. And but again just just kind of

0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.720
<v Speaker 2>without going into detail, which I think is good that

0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:46.040
<v Speaker 2>we've got something that kind of sparks your imagination without

0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.200
<v Speaker 2>telling you exactly what it was they saw.

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.160
<v Speaker 1>You've got the Aliens, you've got the Covenant, and you've

0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.440
<v Speaker 1>got the Holy Grail. This is literally films one to

0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.440
<v Speaker 1>four of Indiana Jones. You should do like a midnight

0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.320
<v Speaker 1>screening of the Indiana Jones.

0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.480
<v Speaker 2>But we've done outdoor screenings of the Da Vinci Code.

0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Now our connections more to the Da Vinci Code rather

0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.720
<v Speaker 2>than the Indiana Jones. But we do have carvings of

0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.520
<v Speaker 2>what's been described as may So exotic plants. There's carvings

0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.800
<v Speaker 2>that are said to be cactus and aluvira and a

0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.399
<v Speaker 2>plant that's known in Canada called trillium. These are all

0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.399
<v Speaker 2>here in the chapel, and the one that's said to

0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:30.160
<v Speaker 2>be May's is particularly interesting because of course May's wasn't

0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.320
<v Speaker 2>known in these rural parts of Scotland in the time

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.199
<v Speaker 2>when the chapel was built. It was said to have

0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:40.240
<v Speaker 2>been part of what Columbus discovered in America in fourteen

0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.760
<v Speaker 2>ninety two, which was after the building of the chapel

0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.600
<v Speaker 2>had been completed. So there's a theory that the founder

0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.760
<v Speaker 2>of the chapel, his grandfather, had actually traveled to the

0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 2>New World, had seen different plants, different things, come back

0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 2>and share these stories with his grandson and then they

0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.320
<v Speaker 2>were incorporated into the carvings of the chapel. So it's

0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 2>another mystery. It's another sort of point of speculation. Are

0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:10.160
<v Speaker 2>these carvings what they say they are or another interpretation?

0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.200
<v Speaker 2>And if they are, how could they be here when

0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 2>they weren't known in this part of Scotland at that time.

0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Obviously there's a massive connection towards the Da Vinci carriage.

0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 1>As you said, were you aware that the books were

0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:26.800
<v Speaker 1>about to come out or the film was about to

0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.600
<v Speaker 1>be released? Firstly, like what was it like if they

0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.000
<v Speaker 1>actually filmed in the chapel with Tom Hanks hanging around?

0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.840
<v Speaker 1>And then what was the explosion of interest, Like.

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, we knew that the film was going to be

0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.280
<v Speaker 2>made here. We didn't know about the book, and one

0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.240
<v Speaker 2>of one of the members of staff who worked here

0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 2>at the time had been in America on holiday and

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.360
<v Speaker 2>picked up this book in the airport. The book called

0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 2>The Da Vinci Code. Think it would be a good

0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.120
<v Speaker 2>read on the flight home, and got towards the end

0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and found that the characters came to Roslin Chapel. So

0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.800
<v Speaker 2>that was the kind of first that we knew about it.

0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.160
<v Speaker 2>So when the before the Boot came out, we were

0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.439
<v Speaker 2>welcoming maybe about thirty thousand visitors every year. When the

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Boot came out, the numbers went up to about seventy thousand,

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.600
<v Speaker 2>so it had a huge impact. But then in two

0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.439
<v Speaker 2>thousand and five Tom Hanks came to visit and the

0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:26.080
<v Speaker 2>filming was done, and in two thousand and six the

0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.840
<v Speaker 2>film came out and at the peak numbers went up

0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.080
<v Speaker 2>to one hundred and seventy six thousand a year.

0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.080
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Christ, that's way more, huge, huge impact, I bet,

0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:38.239
<v Speaker 1>because also I think the energy of the type of

0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.680
<v Speaker 1>person visiting would have been different. I imagine when it

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:42.760
<v Speaker 1>was thirty thousand, they'd have been sort of quite quaint

0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 1>and looking at the nice architecture and the beauty, and

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:49.360
<v Speaker 1>then sudden it's one hundred and seventy Dan Brown fanatics. Yeah,

0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.919
<v Speaker 1>I think exactly, and then going absolutely insane and all

0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:54.840
<v Speaker 1>with their maps and goggles.

0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.680
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, everyone trying to work out these these puzzles

0:21:57.680 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 2>and mysteries.

0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.439
<v Speaker 1>Are there any parts of the chapel or carvings or

0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:04.639
<v Speaker 1>secret scribbles that are off limits to the tourists or

0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.320
<v Speaker 1>people don't say or people don't know about. Just whisper

0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:11.120
<v Speaker 1>it to me, and then I don't know what I'm whispering.

0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Whispering nobody here. Rotherland Castle's nearby, and there's said to

0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 2>be a secret passage between the chapel and the castle.

0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.320
<v Speaker 2>We've not really uncovered anything there.

0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:23.399
<v Speaker 1>Of course, if you did have any secrets, you obviously

0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be letting us now anyway, would you.

0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:27.320
<v Speaker 2>You've got to come and have a look. Yep.

0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.119
<v Speaker 1>What do you think that secret tunnel would have been

0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.000
<v Speaker 1>used for? If there is a secret tunnel.

0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, it might just have been for for safety if

0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:40.760
<v Speaker 2>people had been We know that the castle was attacked

0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.879
<v Speaker 2>several times, so it might have been away for the

0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.800
<v Speaker 2>family who were down there to escape. I don't think

0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.360
<v Speaker 2>it would have been really for any other reason other

0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.960
<v Speaker 2>than that kind of safe passage between one building and

0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:54.320
<v Speaker 2>the other.

0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just a quick exit for the aliens once they've

0:22:57.440 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 1>come through the.

0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Sagates exactly or not, but possibly.

0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:04.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on to the

0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.280
<v Speaker 1>podcast for the pleasure. I really want to come and

0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:08.080
<v Speaker 1>visit now, because.

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah you must so. We're only seven miles from Edinburgh.

0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:13.720
<v Speaker 2>We're open all year. Come and visit and see for

0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.560
<v Speaker 2>yourself and make up your own mind about this amazing building.

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:23.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to finish up with some quick fire questions.

0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.320
<v Speaker 1>Aside from rosen Chapel and Castle, where is your favorite

0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>stately home or historical building.

0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:31.359
<v Speaker 2>I work for a long time for the National Trust

0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.400
<v Speaker 2>for Scotland. There's a very quirky place in the borders

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.960
<v Speaker 2>called roberts Malls printing works of Victorian printing works, where

0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:41.480
<v Speaker 2>you almost stay back in time, and so if you've

0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:44.040
<v Speaker 2>never been there, I think that's well worth the visit.

0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.400
<v Speaker 2>It's not as famous as some but it's a really

0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 2>fascinating place.

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 1>That's cool. If you could go back in time to

0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:52.920
<v Speaker 1>any place in history, where would it be.

0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Well. I enjoyed doing Roman history a number of years ago,

0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.199
<v Speaker 2>So I think maybe going back to to visiting the

0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.919
<v Speaker 2>Romans would be interesting, but obviously here visiting when the

0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:09.720
<v Speaker 2>building was being created, when the castle was being lived in,

0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.359
<v Speaker 2>and the sort of great high life was.

0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:14.679
<v Speaker 1>Was eighteenth century enjoyed.

0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:16.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it'd be great to see that.

0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:20.879
<v Speaker 1>Who from Roslin Chapel's history would you most like to

0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:24.640
<v Speaker 1>meet and why? And what would you ask them?

0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it would probably have to be Sir

0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:29.399
<v Speaker 2>William Sinclair, the one who founded it, because if it

0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:32.960
<v Speaker 2>wasn't for him, you know, we wouldn't be welcoming thousands

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:37.359
<v Speaker 2>of people just now. So I think finding out maybe

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.640
<v Speaker 2>what he did mean by all these carvings would be good.

0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:42.440
<v Speaker 2>But then, you know, on the other hand, maybe it's

0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.920
<v Speaker 2>better that we don't know. If we knew all the answers,

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.600
<v Speaker 2>we wouldn't be able to to speculate. But I think

0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.920
<v Speaker 2>it would be really interesting to meet him and get

0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 2>his take on the building and his vision and to

0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:58.600
<v Speaker 2>find out I suppose it'd be interesting to find out

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:03.440
<v Speaker 2>what he saw in the bit that was never created,

0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:07.200
<v Speaker 2>so that would have been in his mind, but nobody

0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:08.960
<v Speaker 2>else is because it was never completed.

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.800
<v Speaker 1>And finally, why should people visit Roslyn Chapel.

0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's the real mix of amazing architecture, a huge history,

0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:25.439
<v Speaker 2>all these myths and legends and speculation, the fact that

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:30.160
<v Speaker 2>it's been attracted Hollywood. There's lots to see, there's lots

0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:33.000
<v Speaker 2>to do while you're here, and that people come with

0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 2>lots of questions about the chapel. But I think most

0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:41.040
<v Speaker 2>people actually go away with more questions than when they arrived.

0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Ian. Thank you so much for joining us on the

0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:47.359
<v Speaker 1>podcast and the excellent work you're doing at Roslyn Chapel.

0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:50.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you've secured your own place in Heaven.

0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. We'll look forward to seeing you here sometimes.

0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Or up on Cloud nine, who knows.

0:25:57.480 --> 0:25:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Thanks very much. Thank you.

0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, that's all we've got time for this week. I'm

0:26:01.440 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 1>off to the roof of the studio to make some carvings.

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:05.680
<v Speaker 1>I've got to make sure the Bad Manner's crew make

0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:09.000
<v Speaker 1>it to Heaven. Well apart from producer Chris, he hasn't

0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:12.080
<v Speaker 1>even managed to make me a coffee. So until next time,

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:16.480
<v Speaker 1>remember the truth is out there, so mind your manners.

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:19.359
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to Bad Manners. If you like the pod,

0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 1>please share it with your friends. Rate it on the

0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 1>iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.120
<v Speaker 1>Leave a review and make sure you spill the tea

0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:31.480
<v Speaker 1>on any of your favorite bad manners that we could

0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:36.240
<v Speaker 1>feature in future episodes. This podcast was produced by Atamei

0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:39.919
<v Speaker 1>Studios for iHeartRadio. It was hosted by me Tom Horton.

0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.280
<v Speaker 1>It was produced by Willie Lensky, Rebecca Rappaport, and Chris Ataway.

0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:47.760
<v Speaker 1>It was executive produced by Face Steur and Zad Rogers.

0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:51.679
<v Speaker 1>Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator

0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:52.840
<v Speaker 1>is Bella Selini