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Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph

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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Is Charlie Manson crazy whatever that means. Sure,

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Speaker 1: he's crazy as a man, as a hatter, what differences

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Speaker 1: in me? And I started fanning and I turned into

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Speaker 1: the animals? You know, I just did you tell the

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Speaker 1: women to do their witchy things? I said, if you're

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Speaker 1: going to do something, leave something witchy, just like I

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Speaker 1: would tell you. If you're going to do something, do

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Speaker 1: it with and leave something. You leave a sign to

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Speaker 1: let the world know that you would have a good

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Speaker 1: game right now. Charles Nelson, the leader of the Killer Cult,

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Speaker 1: is dead and his stay in the penitentiary was just

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Speaker 1: a pit stop to h e Double l a former

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Speaker 1: convicted felon. He brings together dozens of young people, dozens

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Speaker 1: of let me just say, misfits, people that felt they

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Speaker 1: were misfits anyway, whether they were or not. He brought

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Speaker 1: them all together as a family. They all settled in together,

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Speaker 1: kind of commune style, at a ranch near l A.

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Speaker 1: But then for two nights he instructs his followers to

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Speaker 1: go on a murder spree and they do horrific murders.

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Speaker 1: Some crime scenes unlike anything police had ever seen before.

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Speaker 1: Words written on the walls and the victims blood, dead

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Speaker 1: bodies strown through fancy homes in the l A area.

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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us right now. Joining me a very special guest,

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Speaker 1: in fact, two of them, Diane Lake, the author of

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Speaker 1: Member of the Family, a new book out now, the

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Speaker 1: youngest member of the Charles Manson family. She later helped

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Speaker 1: send him to jail. Also joining me, the author of

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Speaker 1: Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of stardom, the

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Speaker 1: Manson murders, and a Crusade for Justice. A Lisa with

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Speaker 1: us along with Karen Smith, major crimes investigator, and Alan

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Speaker 1: the Dupe dup joining me from l A thank you

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Speaker 1: all for being with us. First to Diane Lake, author

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Speaker 1: of Member of the Family, Diane, when you hear it

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Speaker 1: laid out so coldly? Did this former convict managed to

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Speaker 1: bring together a band of self professed misfits as a

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Speaker 1: family who then go on a deadly murder spree? What

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Speaker 1: was it about Charles Manson that attracted you? What about

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Speaker 1: him was so compelling? He was very charismatic, um he

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Speaker 1: had the ability to become whoever it was that you

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Speaker 1: needed in your life. What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: I felt alone. I didn't feel like I fit in

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Speaker 1: with the counterculture groups that I'd been introduced to previously.

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Speaker 1: And he welcomed me, and the girls welcomed me. And

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Speaker 1: it was a He was a musician, primarily singing songs

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Speaker 1: that he'd written, and he was playful and and really

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Speaker 1: very loving in the beginning with me. Is the youngest

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Speaker 1: member of the Manson family. Her name is Diane Lake,

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Speaker 1: and she's the author of a brand new book, Member

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Speaker 1: of the Family. Now, Diane, you met Charles Manson at

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Speaker 1: just fourteen years old, and we're increasingly mystified and intrigued

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Speaker 1: and captivated with him. How old was he when you

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Speaker 1: met him at age fourteen? I believe he was thirty four. Wow, Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's thirty four. You're fourteen. Explain to me when you

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Speaker 1: say playful and loving, what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: He you know, tells all your hair, make jokes, make

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Speaker 1: funny faces. Um. He had a way of just making

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Speaker 1: you feel like you were the only one that he loved.

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Speaker 1: The only one that he loved was he having sex

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Speaker 1: with different women in the group yes, we'll see a

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Speaker 1: father figure or a boyfriend figure to you at age fourteen,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to marry him. Well, you know what that's

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Speaker 1: That's not uncommon for a fourteen year old girl to

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Speaker 1: become captivated by some guy she meets. When I say older,

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Speaker 1: I would usually mean like fifteen, not thirty four. But

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Speaker 1: when you say you wanted to marry him, did he

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Speaker 1: say anything to make you believe that could happen? You know,

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Speaker 1: did he sleep with you? I mean as in the

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Speaker 1: sex way, not the snoring way. When you look back

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Speaker 1: on the fact that a thirty or four year old

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Speaker 1: man had sex with a fourteen year old girl who

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Speaker 1: was totally smitten with him, how does that make you feel?

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Speaker 1: Not good? Diane? I agree with you, and I, like

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Speaker 1: many many women, you look back in situations and things

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Speaker 1: that happened, and at the time it's too confusing, frankly

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Speaker 1: to be angry or to really know what's happening. But

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Speaker 1: then as you grow up and you mature and you

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Speaker 1: look back that feeling of anger and kind of a

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Speaker 1: helpless feeling because you were so naive at the time,

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Speaker 1: A real babe in the woods. It's just a real

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Speaker 1: feeling of resentment and anger and also resignation. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever feel like it was your fault that you had

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Speaker 1: sex with Charles Manson when you were just fourteen? Most

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Speaker 1: definitely I took responsibility for what happened to me for

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Speaker 1: a long time. You know, Diane, if you were here

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Speaker 1: with me right now in the studio with me, I've

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Speaker 1: just got chills on my arms and my legs because

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Speaker 1: I know how you feel, and so many women know

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Speaker 1: how you feel. At the time when you're fourteen years

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Speaker 1: old and you're going along with it. At the time,

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Speaker 1: you think, oh, okay, this is fine. But when you

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Speaker 1: look back and you realize what happened to you, it's

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Speaker 1: it's very upsetting. And to hear you say the words

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Speaker 1: not good, that's I'm going to always remember those two words,

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Speaker 1: Diane Lake, not good, because sometimes they're just are not

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Speaker 1: words the right words to explain how you feel looking

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Speaker 1: back on being a crime victim. Diane Lake is with

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Speaker 1: me the author of a Member of the Family. It's

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Speaker 1: a brand new book and it describes her experience falling

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Speaker 1: under Charles Manson's spell. How eventually, after a very long battle,

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Speaker 1: including being institutionalized, working through it and even now the

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Speaker 1: feelings she has about what happened to her. It's it's

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Speaker 1: an incredible, incredible book. When you say you quote fell

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Speaker 1: under his spell, I know what that means to me,

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Speaker 1: But what does it mean to you, Diane? Like he

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Speaker 1: fell under his spell? He, as I said, was um

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Speaker 1: very charismatic, um, playful, uh, seemingly intelligent. And the girls,

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Speaker 1: the other girls, had such a devotion for him. It

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Speaker 1: was easy and and being not with my family and

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Speaker 1: not feeling like I really belonged with the life that

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Speaker 1: they had chosen just made me. And and that his family,

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Speaker 1: he and his family of girls made me feel so

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Speaker 1: welcomed and part of them. That was the that was

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Speaker 1: the magic for me. Can I ask how did the

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Speaker 1: other as you call them girls feel about him sleeping

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Speaker 1: with all of them? There was enough love to go around,

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Speaker 1: we all um. I think at times there was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: does he love her better than me? But for the

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Speaker 1: most part, no, we loved We loved him, and we

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Speaker 1: loved each other. I'm just pausing to digest all that

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Speaker 1: you know, Alan deep believe it or not. There are

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Speaker 1: times that I'm not speaking, just trying to to take

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Speaker 1: in what you're saying and how this must have felt

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Speaker 1: as as a fourteen year old girl. What about your

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Speaker 1: real family, your biological family now or then? Well, then,

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Speaker 1: I know that they gave you a note. I guess

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Speaker 1: you would call your mom and dad hippies for lack

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Speaker 1: of a better term. Gave you a note granting you

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Speaker 1: permission to leave them. How did that happen? I was

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Speaker 1: on an acid trip, not with Charlie I didn't know him,

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Speaker 1: but with another family and my own family as well,

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Speaker 1: and I felt that I heard God's voice telling me

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Speaker 1: it was time to leave home. So I had a

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Speaker 1: conversation with my parents about it. And we were living

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Speaker 1: with another couple with children at that time, and they

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Speaker 1: had invited me to stay with them. So my parents

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Speaker 1: wrote me a little note give basically giving me my emancipation.

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Speaker 1: And I think there was a legal document that could

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Speaker 1: be it could have been created giving me emancipation as

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Speaker 1: a minor. But this was just a handwritten note. You

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Speaker 1: know that we did on the coffee table, and I

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Speaker 1: carried it around in my pocket for a few years

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Speaker 1: and I never used it. I never had to use it.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever miss your parents during your time away

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Speaker 1: from them? There were times that I that I did,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't feel like I belonged in the commune

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Speaker 1: that they were living in. Did they know? Did your

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Speaker 1: mom and dad know people were giving you acid? Yes,

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Speaker 1: my very My first asset trip was taken in my

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Speaker 1: living room before we dropped out, and had been provided

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Speaker 1: to me and my best friends by my dad. Why, Diane, like,

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Speaker 1: why would your dad give you asset as a little girl?

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Speaker 1: I don't think he saw me as a little girl.

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Speaker 1: And this was the beginning of the counter culture, you know,

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Speaker 1: the summer of sixty seven, and my parents were caught

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Speaker 1: up in the whole Timothy Leary, Alan Ginsburg, Jack Heroac,

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Speaker 1: the whole, the whole culture counterculture movement. They really believed

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Speaker 1: that this was a way, a new way to live,

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Speaker 1: trusting God, not being you know, being enlightened with drugs, hallucinogenics,

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Speaker 1: and you know, living in a communal situation. Can I

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Speaker 1: ask you how they got the idea that trusting God,

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Speaker 1: that God would want them to send their fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old daughter on an acid trip. How how does that translate?

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Speaker 1: And I'm not judging, I'm curious because I don't understand it. Well,

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Speaker 1: they met this commune called the Oracle. They Also the

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Speaker 1: Oracle got started in San Francisco, you know, it's an

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Speaker 1: underground newspaper, and then l A started one, and my

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Speaker 1: father got involved with them because he wanted to do

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Speaker 1: He was an artist and he wanted to do some

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Speaker 1: of their artwork, so he got involved with them. But

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Speaker 1: the whole Um Oracle commune was all about you know, love, sex,

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Speaker 1: that it was and that it was okay even you know,

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Speaker 1: for children. So they just kind of got all caught

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Speaker 1: up in that mindset. What was life like with the

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Speaker 1: Manson family? What would a typical day be for a

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl essentially living in a sex relationship

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Speaker 1: with a thirty or four year old man. Charles Manson,

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Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time, you know, um just

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Speaker 1: outside in nature enjoying and I did. I did enjoy

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Speaker 1: living at Spawn Ranch um beautiful hills and trees and

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Speaker 1: rocks and little streams, and I remember spending a lot

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Speaker 1: of time out in nature. You know, I didn't have

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Speaker 1: sex every day. It was not it was not that

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Speaker 1: UM concentrated or that that wasn't the total focus. We

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Speaker 1: would prepare meals. UM got food from various locations, including

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Speaker 1: the dumpsters of the behind grocery stores. Found some great

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Speaker 1: stuff that you know, the grocery stores were throwing out

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Speaker 1: and um. Then you know, there were a couple of

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Speaker 1: babies that came along, and taking care of the babies,

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Speaker 1: playing with them, and taking care of George, helping around

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Speaker 1: the ranch, um and cleaning, cleaning, making things nice, making

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Speaker 1: things um organized. I was kind of an organizer. And

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Speaker 1: then in the evening we would sit around Charlie and

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Speaker 1: either he would you know, be philosophizing or instructing, or

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Speaker 1: playing music, usually playing music and we would sing along.

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Speaker 1: What would Charles Manson bay philosophizing and instructing about about

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Speaker 1: life and about you know, getting rid of your inhibitions

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Speaker 1: and basically, you know, forget what your parents taught you

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Speaker 1: some of the same formats or premises that my own

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Speaker 1: you know, father had bought into, which was you know,

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Speaker 1: getting rid of materialism out of your life and and

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Speaker 1: just living from in the here and the now. Did

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Speaker 1: your parents have any idea that you were living with

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson? Yes, did they have any idea? He was

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Speaker 1: a convicted felon at that time. You know when you

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Speaker 1: say we didn't have sex every day, well, you know, Diane,

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Speaker 1: most fourteen year old girls don't have sex ever, because

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Speaker 1: it's actually statutory rape. So to hear you say that,

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Speaker 1: I just think of you as a fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: girl in that world. What do you think all the

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Speaker 1: acid trips effect had on you? Acid trips, for the

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Speaker 1: most part, for me, were good. I mean they were

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Speaker 1: good experiences. I had a few bad trips, but considering

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Speaker 1: how many times I did take acid, I really did

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Speaker 1: not have that many, um what I would call a

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Speaker 1: bad trip. So mostly it would just you know, open

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Speaker 1: your mind to um what a perfect world might be.

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Speaker 1: And I know that it doesn't sound right when I

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Speaker 1: say it, it's it's it's craziness, but um, I have

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Speaker 1: three children, and that not even preteen. But those early

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Speaker 1: those the early teen years, you think you're an adult.

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Speaker 1: You don't think of yourself as a child. Well, what

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Speaker 1: made you decide that you wanted to leave Charles Manson

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Speaker 1: in the family. I was there when we were at

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Speaker 1: the last arrest. What do you mean I didn't leave him? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I thought you helped put him behind bars. I did,

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Speaker 1: so you had to leave him at some point? Right?

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Speaker 1: Was that against your will? No? I was. I was

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Speaker 1: put in jail and after you know, a few months

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Speaker 1: of good food and no drugs, and you know, reading

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Speaker 1: and overhearing people say those four girls are never going

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Speaker 1: to make it. And before I went into the grand jury,

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Speaker 1: the bailiff asked me my name, and I told him

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Speaker 1: I'm Diane Lake. I'm sixteen, and I want my mommy.

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Speaker 1: So I had really come to the conclusion that I

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Speaker 1: had made a big mistake. I didn't belong here, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted out. Why did you want out? That was

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Speaker 1: when I began, you know, to tell the truth, to

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Speaker 1: tell the authorities what I had seen, you know, what

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Speaker 1: I had heard. I I didn't want to live in

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Speaker 1: this situation anymore. I you know, woke up to the

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Speaker 1: fact that it was wrong. What was your part? And

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Speaker 1: sending Manson to jail, I you know, testified that his

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Speaker 1: escalating behavior about the White album about you know, Helter Skelter,

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Speaker 1: and I testified what other people had told me that

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Speaker 1: he had asked them to do. What did he ask

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Speaker 1: you to do? He didn't ask me to do anything.

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Speaker 1: Other people told me what he asked them to do.

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Speaker 1: I understand what did he ask them to do? Basically,

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Speaker 1: to start Helter Skelter to go and do something witchy

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Speaker 1: in these different homes to start the helter Skelter rice war.

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Speaker 1: That's that was the I don't know if he used

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Speaker 1: those words, but that was that was Later on I

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Speaker 1: realized that that was the intent. So by going and

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Speaker 1: murdering people in that l A, California area and surrounding area,

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Speaker 1: how was that supposed to start a race war? I

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean at Bobby both Lay had

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Speaker 1: been arrested for um killing Gary Hindman. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is this is looking back and you're trying to figure out,

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Speaker 1: you know, what happened and why. It's like there's some

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Speaker 1: um idea that perhaps they wanted to make it look

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Speaker 1: like helter Skelter had started because of what happened to

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Speaker 1: Gary Hindman, that they were going to um do more

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Speaker 1: of the same. And look, because Charlie had been talking

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Speaker 1: about a race war for a long time, and he'd

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Speaker 1: been hearing about a race war for a long time

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Speaker 1: during his in his various incarcerations and um being in

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Speaker 1: reform school, he'd been hearing this in court. And you

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Speaker 1: saw Charles Manson, how did he appear to you? How

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Speaker 1: did that make you feel? I was I was very

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Speaker 1: nervous about um testifying in front of him, because I

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Speaker 1: knew that he would be unhappy with me, and I

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Speaker 1: was concerned that I wouldn't be able to look him

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Speaker 1: in the eye because I would remember the good times.

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Speaker 1: But one of the very first questions he showed me

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Speaker 1: that it was all about him. What do you mean?

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Speaker 1: One of the questions that they asked me was I

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Speaker 1: in love with Charles Manson? And I said I guess so,

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Speaker 1: and he immediately chimed in, don't put it all on

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Speaker 1: Mr Manson. She loved everybody, and I could see that

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Speaker 1: he again, he was playing the whole courtroom, and I

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Speaker 1: realized that he really didn't He didn't love me, and

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Speaker 1: the spell was broken with me. Is Diane like the

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Speaker 1: author of a brand new book? Member of the Family.

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Speaker 1: Diane was the youngest member of the Charles Manson so

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Speaker 1: called family. After leaving the family, she actually had to

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Speaker 1: be institutionalized in order to ultimately break free of the

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Speaker 1: life with Charles Manson and the drugs and the life style.

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Speaker 1: She went on to help the state put Charles Manson

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Speaker 1: behind bars. Today with Diane Lake, Karen Smith and Alicia's

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Speaker 1: keyword grace. We're ready to help with me. Is Diane Lake,

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Speaker 1: author of a brand new book. Member of the Family.

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Speaker 1: She is the youngest member of the Charles Manson family

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Speaker 1: that went on to commit mass murder. Karen Smith expert

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Speaker 1: in her field, major crime scene investigator and Elsa's Stateman,

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Speaker 1: author of Restless Souls, The Sharon Tate Family account of stardom,

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Speaker 1: the Manson Murders, and a Crusade for Justice. I want

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Speaker 1: you to take a listen to Charles Manson speaking. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a violent human being. Did you tell the women

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Speaker 1: to do their witchy things? I said, if you're going

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Speaker 1: to do something, leave something witchy, just like I would

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Speaker 1: tell you. If you're going to do something, do it

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Speaker 1: well and leave something witchy. Leave a sign to let

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Speaker 1: the world know that you were there. Have a good day.

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Speaker 1: Did you tell them which words? No, pig helter skelter rise.

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Speaker 1: It's not my vocabulary, that's not my generation. I keep

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Speaker 1: telling you that. In the car on the way to

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Speaker 1: the lot Bianca house, you said, this time, make sure

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Speaker 1: they're not scared like last night. Oh no, it may

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Speaker 1: have been something like this. Uh yeah that I remember

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Speaker 1: something like that, but I don't remember exactly the right words.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly the right words. But that's that's

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Speaker 1: a simple that's a simple philosophy from China. That's a

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Speaker 1: Chinese philosophy. You know, if if you're gonna, if you're

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Speaker 1: gonna go to war and you're fighting your enemy and

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Speaker 1: you kill him when he's afraid, you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: bad omen it's bad. It's bad. So you try to

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Speaker 1: absorb the fear, which I think the Hindus use that

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Speaker 1: word karma to balance a karma. To Elsa Stateman, author

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Speaker 1: of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family account of startup

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Speaker 1: Manson murders, and Crusade for Justice at Lisa, we have

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Speaker 1: both been listening. I've been transfixed listening to Diane Lake

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Speaker 1: describe what life was like as the youngest female member

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Speaker 1: of the Manson family, and to hear her talk, I

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Speaker 1: can get a glimpse of life inside that so called

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Speaker 1: family and how everything that I think is wrong, so

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Speaker 1: many things that I think is wrong was normal. Giving

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old child acid that forever can alter

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Speaker 1: your brain, forever, can alter your psyche for the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life. Having full blown sex between a thirty

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Speaker 1: four year old man and a fourteen year old girl,

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Speaker 1: no school, just wandering around, having the child, help gather

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Speaker 1: food from dumpsters and prepare food and and basically make

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Speaker 1: it a harem for Charles Manson to sit around in

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Speaker 1: Struma's guitar and hype hot size at night. It just

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Speaker 1: and then to hear her say, Elisa, she felt like

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Speaker 1: it was her fault, and I get it. That's really

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Speaker 1: how so many assault victims feel. Elsa's statement, author of

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Speaker 1: Restless Souls. I want to hear your thoughts on listening

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Speaker 1: as you were listening to Diane late along with me.

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Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, it's heartbreaking to listen to Diane because

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Speaker 1: you know, she is the story of every abused child,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, and Manson took advantage of that. I

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Speaker 1: think that what's really amazing about Diana, and and to

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Speaker 1: emphasize this is that even though she was there and

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Speaker 1: under Manson's spell, she and she says this in a book,

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Speaker 1: she knew the difference between right and wrong. She knew

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Speaker 1: that she was an individual. And I think it speaks

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Speaker 1: volumes to those who were in prison and those who aren't.

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Speaker 1: You had this fourteen year old girl who was more

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Speaker 1: impressionable than anybody who was abused by him, More than

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Speaker 1: anybody she was hit by him, hung upside down by him,

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Speaker 1: and by all means, believed him to be Christ in

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Speaker 1: her words, and yet she didn't murder. And I think

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Speaker 1: that that speaks volumes about those who did murder Um.

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Speaker 1: I think that it is an amazing story that Diane

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Speaker 1: came out on top of this um and not only

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Speaker 1: came out on top of it, but was you know,

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Speaker 1: tad mount to the prosecution star witness in helping to

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00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: put them behind bars. That took an incredible amount of

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Speaker 1: courage for the sixteen year old at the time to

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00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: come against somebody who she knew could retire tallyate who

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00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: she loved and yet feared. And it's it's truly an

403
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: amazing yet heartbreaking story. But you know, going back to

404
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: what I was what I was saying, it just emphasizes

405
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Speaker 1: why those who killed for Manson should stay where they are.

406
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: They were no less impressionable than Diane was, and yet

407
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: they had it in them to kill. And Manson knew

408
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Speaker 1: who had it in them to kill and who didn't.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason Diane didn't go out on those nights

410
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Speaker 1: because Manson knew she didn't have it in her. She

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Speaker 1: was a decent human being, on the inside. She wasn't

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Speaker 1: a savage killer like Susan Atkins, Patricia Crome Winkle, Leslie

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Speaker 1: Van Houghton, Charles Watson Manson knew those people would kill

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Speaker 1: and they did. Diane, like author a member of the family,

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00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear your response to Atlasa Statn's comment, Well,

416
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: she really painted painted quite the picture. And not that

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00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: it's not true, it's just that it's really hard to

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00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: um here that um viewpoint. Why what is what is

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00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: hard about it? And I know that's the viewpoint that

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Speaker 1: you know, I as if I had been mature, would

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Speaker 1: have seen, would have probably seen, but I didn't, you know,

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Speaker 1: And it's really hard to look at yourself as a victim.

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Speaker 1: And I really did not see myself as a victim

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00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: until fairly recently, Diane. Like when you hear Alissa describe

425
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: being hung upside down and hit, what happened? He threatened

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Speaker 1: to hang me upside down. He never actually did hang

427
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: me upside down, but he did threaten to hang me

428
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: upside down and skin me alive. And why I wasn't

429
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: paying attention. We were at we were in the desert.

430
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: You know, these crimes have been committed, and he demanded

431
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: our undivided attention, and I really, uh, I think I

432
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: had really lost connection with myself and with my situation. Well,

433
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a fourteen year old girl being fed

434
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: LSD acid and having sex with a grown man, and

435
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: you're out in the middle of the desert with no family,

436
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: your parents to support you. I can understand being disconnected.

437
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: Did you think when he told you can hang you

438
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: upside down and skin you alive? Did you believe him

439
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: at that point? I certainly did. You were not asked

440
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: to go and commit murder. You heard the others talking

441
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: about it. Would you have gone if he had told

442
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: you to? I don't think so. I would have. I

443
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: feel that I would. I I wouldn't. I would not

444
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: have been able to do that. And like Alisa said,

445
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: I don't think I was asked because I think he

446
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: knew that. When you heard the others come back and

447
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: talking about the killings, what what was their attitude their

448
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: demeanor towards what they had done. I didn't hear about

449
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: it from the girls until we were in the desert,

450
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: but they were almost like bragging. That's that's how I

451
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: remember them telling me. It was. They were kind of

452
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: like morbidly gleeful about it in what way? What did

453
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: they say? It's just like, oh and we did you know,

454
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: when we did this, and we did that and did what.

455
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 1: You know. At first, I think one of the girls

456
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: told me that they they you know, they they stabbed

457
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: somebody and and first you know, and then it became

458
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: then it was fun. I don't know, it's just what,

459
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: you know. The their demeanor, more than what they said,

460
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: is the memory that I have, and that they were,

461
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, they were like proud to have done this.

462
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: You know what, at that time, you were only four

463
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: years older than my little twins are, and I cannot

464
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: imagine them out in a desert with Charles Manson listening

465
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: to these people acting worse than animals, gleeful over what

466
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: they had done with me. Is Karen Smith, crime scene investigator,

467
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: forensics expert. Karen, thank you for being with us the

468
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: reality of the murder scenes. What happened, Karen Smith, They

469
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: were horrific um. The first murder scene took place on

470
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: Clo Drive on August date, and at that scene, essentially

471
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: they report five people were killed, but essentially it was

472
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: six because Sharon Tate was almost to term with her pregnancy,

473
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: and at that time Stephen Parent, Abigail Folgier, wootech for Kowski, J. C. Bring,

474
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate and her unborn child were all murdered. They

475
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: were shot, stabbed. There was evidence of strangulation writing on

476
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: the walls and the victim's blood. There was blunt force

477
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: trauma and blood from one end of that house to

478
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: the other end, out into the front yard. On the

479
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: next night were the La Bianca murders, where Leno la

480
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: Bianca was stabbed twelve times with a bayonet, fork was

481
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: left in his neck and the word war was carved

482
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: into his chest, and his wife Rosemary, was stabbed forty

483
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: one times. I've worked a lot of homicides, but I

484
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: have never seen crime scene photos to this extent in

485
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: my life. I mean, the thought of plunging a fork

486
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: into a human, I just it's hard for me to

487
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: even take it in. Diane Lake, the author of new

488
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: book Member of the Family. When you hear the stark

489
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: reality of the martyrs, innocent people, a woman nine months pregnant,

490
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: carved up with a knife, words like pig and war

491
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: written in blood on the walls, and you were in

492
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: the middle of these people, how did you survive you

493
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 1: were a little girl, Diane. I by the grace of God,

494
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: that's all. And that's part of the reason I'm writing

495
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: this book or I wrote this book, is because it

496
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: is an amazing story. And I give all the glory

497
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: to God forgetting me through with my wits still attached. Um.

498
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: You know, when I hear the description, I'm just I'm

499
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: just absolutely horrified. I've got tears in my eyes. It's

500
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: just I just can't imagine being on either end. And

501
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: I I have so much compassion for the families because

502
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: not only was it bad to start with, but they

503
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: have to relive this every time one of these people

504
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: come up for parole, they have to it has to

505
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: be relived and gone over again. And from my understanding,

506
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: I've never been to parole hearing, but they are eight

507
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: to ten hours long. Melissa's Stateman, author of Restless Souls,

508
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: to Share and Tape, Families, Account and Stardom, The Manson

509
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: Murders and a Crusade for Justice. What do you know

510
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: of the crime scenes and what happened to Sharon Tate

511
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: and the other victims? Well, you know, Eden said it

512
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 1: was one of the most horrific crime scenes. I think

513
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: in the history of crime scenes, you had Sharon Tate

514
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: who was strung up by a rope, stabbed sixteen times.

515
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: You have Voytech Pokosky who was stabbed fifty one times,

516
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: beating over the head thirteen times and shot twice. Abigail

517
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: Folger was chased down, tackled by Britrish crime way go On,

518
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: stabbed twenty one times. J C. Bring was shot one,

519
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: stabbed seven times, and Stephen Parent was shot four times. Uh.

520
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: You know, the following night, as as Karen said, Rosemary

521
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: and Leno law Bianca, you know, in the supposed sanctity

522
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: of their own home, were killed in the most brutal way.

523
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: They had Leno la Bianca who was stabbed the multiple

524
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: times with a knife thrust through his throat and a

525
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: fork with the word war carved into his into his abdomen,

526
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: and and Rosemary brot Bianca stabbed forty one times. And

527
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the horror of this is

528
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: so uh multiplied by the fact that they were in

529
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: the supposed sanctity of their own home. You know, this

530
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: was a rampage. Then I don't think it gets any

531
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: more horrific or scary than that. And the fact that

532
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: these people were able to. You know, you have to

533
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: and I think that you know this Nancy stabbing is

534
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: a very personal crime. You're up close, you're holding them down,

535
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: to look these people in the eye as they were

536
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: doing it, and and the overkill that was used to

537
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: look a pregnant woman in the eye and tell her,

538
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: as Susan Atkins did, look bitch, I don't have any

539
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: mercy for you. You're gonna die and you better be ready.

540
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: And then to stab her in the heart, you know,

541
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: three times as she's gleeting for the life of her baby.

542
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: Let me live, let me have my baby, and you

543
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: can kill me anyway you want, you know. I think

544
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: what what is lost over the years is the word

545
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: that these victims went through, and the screams and the

546
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: pleas to live, you know, are all but forgotten. And

547
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: when you put yourself as a family member does, as

548
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: Diane was saying in their Pearl hearings, and you have

549
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: to hear these details over and over, you know, for

550
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: the victims of these of the families who sit and

551
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: listen to it, they're not hearing the details. They're hearing

552
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: their loved ones screaming. They're wondering about the fear that

553
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: their loved ones went through in their last moments of life,

554
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: and that I think is the most horrible part of

555
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: these Pearl hearings. And you know, let's remember back to

556
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: when Doris Tate was doing this. These Pearl hearings were

557
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: every year. And now you know, through through new laws,

558
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: you can do it up to fifteen years. But let's

559
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: remember back to when this all started. They were going

560
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: to a mirror after year after year and reliving this

561
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: or that their left ones went through. Well, I've got

562
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: to tell you unless some one I can't. I can't

563
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: stand to think back, Oh, my fiance's murder. I don't

564
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: like to think about it. I don't like people to

565
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: bring it up to me. If I bring it up,

566
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: that's one thing I'm prepared mentally to talk about it.

567
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,959
Speaker 1: But it makes me think about what he went through.

568
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: And while it was horrible, it's nothing compared to a

569
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: pregnant mother begging for the life of her child. Today

570
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: with Diane Lake, Karen Smith and Alicia's Stateman would not

571
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: be possible without our partner who was making our program possible,

572
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: and it is link a k C. Christmas is right

573
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: around the corner with all the other holidays, don't leave

574
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: your dog out of the fun. Get the link AKC

575
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: Smart caller. Then you must have a gift. Believe it

576
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: or not. It's backed by the American Kennel Club. The

577
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 1: link AKC caller is a GPS locator and the fitness

578
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: activity tracker all rolled into one smartphone app. It even

579
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: has an l e ed light and temperature sensor. Now,

580
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: this is what I love. The GPS locator quickly and

581
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: accurately tells you where your dog is. I've got total

582
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: peace of mind. I don't have to worry if fat

583
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 1: boys running down the street or chasing or being chased

584
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: by a car. I can see exactly where he is

585
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: right on the app. And it doesn't matter how old

586
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: or out of shape your dog is, whether it's a

587
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: pure breed or a mutt like mine. Link a k

588
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: C's Activity and Wellness tracker shows the exact amount of

589
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: activity for your dog. Is so easy to set up,

590
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: which is good for me, sizes for every dog, and

591
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: super comfy. Keep your little doggie safe, happy and healthy

592
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,479
Speaker 1: with the link AKCY smart collar. It's the perfect gift

593
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: for you and your dog, and you can try at

594
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: risk free for ninety days. You'll get thirty percent off

595
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: and free shipping if you use code Nancy at the

596
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: link a k c com check out code Nancy at

597
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: link a k c dot com save and free shipping.

598
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 1: You're not gonna get that at the pet store link

599
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: a k c dot com. Thank you for all the

600
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: joy you're bringing to people in their pets, but thank

601
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: you for being our sponsor today. Diane Lake, author of

602
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: Member of the Family, How does your family, your your children,

603
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: your nuclear family feel about you writing the book and

604
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: what they have learned? Uh, there's mixed feelings. For the

605
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: most part, I have the support of my children and

606
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: my mother, my fiancee um and certainly my church family,

607
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: my pastor what do you mean by the most part.

608
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: For the most part, there's a few people in my

609
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 1: family that are are upset with me. Why because that

610
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: reflects badly on my mother. They should be praising God.

611
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: You're alive and and frankly, if it weren't for your

612
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: mother and father, you would not have been in that predicament.

613
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: And I'm not, okay, you know what I am judging.

614
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: I'm not judging you because you were a child and

615
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: it is a miracle a divine miracle. I believe that

616
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: you survived and had to live through being institutionalized. What

617
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: was that like being in an institution to get your

618
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: mind straight? After all you went through saved my life?

619
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: That was that? I that was a wonderful experience. It

620
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: really was, and it is what you had to do

621
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: to survive well. I was in a protected environment. I

622
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: learned how to play the fluid. I went back to school.

623
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: I had um all these loving uh psychologists and psychiatrists

624
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: and nurses, you know, and technicians. I'm so grateful that

625
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: was there forrateful for them too. When they say it

626
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 1: reflects badly on your mother, are your mother and dad?

627
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: Mom and dad still alive. My father passed away fifteen

628
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: years ago. What what did they have to say for

629
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: themselves about allowing you to be in that situation? They

630
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: they regret it. My my father said, we threw the

631
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: baby out with the bath water. Dave Apaulo, you know,

632
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: he apologized. My mother has a you know, apologized um.

633
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, they were they were caught

634
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: up in the you know, this enlightenment, this counterculture movement.

635
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: Diane Lake, I hear you even now, protecting your mom

636
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: and dad for literally throwing you to the wolves. And

637
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: you know what that is, unconditional love. It is I

638
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: know you don't want to see that they did wrong

639
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: by you. They didn't intend to, and I just am

640
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