WEBVTT - Ep. 110: Up North 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.760 This is me eat your podcast, coming at you shirtless, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:17.680 severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:28.520 You can't predict anything all right, coming at you. You know, 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:30.280 a little bit bug bitten because I just got back 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.479 from Mexico and got bit by some bit by three 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:36.680 different kinds of things. A little sand please, not the 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.760 kind of used for fishing bait, not little ghost crabs 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.640 which some people call sand please, bit by those, but 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.840 by regular mosquitoes, and also bit by no seams at dusk, 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.680 sons of bitches come for you. I wouldn't have been 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.600 prepared because dude, I brought down Deep. I put it 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.040 on my kid's legs, and as soon as they went 0:00:58.120 --> 0:00:59.600 to bed, I'd give me a shower. I'm a little 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.720 bit pared worried about Deep, rightfully, so, since it will 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.240 warp your phone, as I found, if you spill Deep, 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.480 if you spill this insecra pullet on your phone, it'll 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:12.240 warp your phone. So imagine what it does to your 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:19.679 parts of you know, your skin cells. Uh So, yeah, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:21.920 coming at you, partially bug bitten and definitely from the 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:27.759 banks of the Mississippi. There's a writer that he there's 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.120 a writer named Ben Metcalf. I don't know if he 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.040 writes anymore or not. He's to he's to write pieces 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:40.000 for Harperism. Was also was an editor somewhere, No yah, 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:42.559 I can't remember who he worked for, but he wrote, 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.200 and some of his work will be collected to Harper's. 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:49.720 And this guy Ben Mattcalf wrote a piece called American Heartworm, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.360 and it was about the Mississippi so as much as Twain, 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:57.680 as much as Mark Twain would celebrate the Mississippi, Ben 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:02.600 metcalfe uh lowth it the Mississippi River one of his 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.600 credits for a lot of reasons. One that he feels 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.080 that any self respecting rivers should be able to handle 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.120 some amount of water without spilling out of its banks, 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.200 and like it for that reason. Another thing is he 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.120 feels that it's also the Mississippi is a con man 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:26.040 um and his and and stole like stole its place 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:33.880 in the American lexicon because by any regional reasonable measure, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.440 by any understanding of a hydrology, the Mississippi isn't the Mississippi. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:44.440 The Mississippi is the Missouri. The Missouri is the great 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.760 continent drainer. I mean it heads in three Forks, Montana 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.520 where it's principle where it's UH. Three forks is the 0:02:55.560 --> 0:03:02.840 confluence of the Madison, Gallatin, and Jefferson. So it's like 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.480 the Secretary of UH at the time of the Lewis 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:16.239 and Clark expedition. Yeah, Madison Secretary state, that's over my head, Jefferson, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.239 And get look at who then armed after those three 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:27.120 fellers and all all political figures at the time they 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.120 all head together. They come together at three forks and 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.960 form in the Missouri. And then that thing flows thousands 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.920 of miles and picks up a little ship in tributary 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:41.520 called the Mississippi and thereby changes its name. What all 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.200 this is doing is just like picking up a minor 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:50.320 tributary dwarfed by like not nearly what the Ohio is. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.560 When it picks it up, it should be called the 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.560 Missouri River. Who has this little, little known tributary called 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:01.160 the Mississippi. This has been Metcalf's argument because we're empty. 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.360 It's not where it begins. It's because people saw it 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.280 and didn't really didn't really until later fully comprehend like 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.160 what that watershed was, that it was one of the 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:15.080 great if at the confluence if the which one is greater, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.359 like which one has it when they come together. The 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:26.640 Missouri's carrying more water mhm. And the Missouri has been 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:34.360 cranking along for the Mississippi heads like north Yeah, north 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.320 central Minnesota. So how far from here? Not as far 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:46.080 away as western Montana. The river is a con man. Uh, 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.560 you don't wanted to talk about that. This quick little 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.599 thing that I found on it, it just says the 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.600 president was named after the President and two of his 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:56.120 cabinet members. But it doesn't say Jefferson was the president. 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.159 Doesn't well, Tommy Jefferson, but it doesn't say you know 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.760 what positions they held in the cabinet. It was like, uh, 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.400 it was like treasure and secretary or something like that. 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.599 Easy to find out, easy, so easy to find out. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.920 It's staggering that Yanni hasn't found out yet. Um, you're 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:14.760 honest to recap some of your time you've been messing 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.840 around with SUV cooking. M you just did some shanks 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.880 in your SUV machine. Tell me about that hours I 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:29.240 cooked him at what temperature? Hundred and sixty that's hot 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:33.320 for Suvi? Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, it is on 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.840 the hotter side. I don't think you Look, I've done 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.760 two different recipes now, so I'm definitely still figuring out. 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.880 And from what I've been reading online, I think there's 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.680 still a lot of figuring out. I think one of 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:49.760 the pluses or you know, pitching points off suv is that, yeah, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.680 there's a great window they the meat is done and 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.320 what won't be overdone. You might explain it to folks. 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.440 What we're talking about is the bulk of them. I 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.200 think the bulk of might know. My brother just last night, 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.719 what if I knew what a bond me sandwich was. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.839 I've been eating those things for Yeah, those are tasty 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:14.760 long time. So here's the guy. One website called Chef's 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.240 Steps dot com, which is a Suvie recipe website. I 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:24.560 have there you go, Um, they have a squirrel bond 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:30.280 Me recipe made with Suvie squirrel Me. Yeah, but my 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.280 bro made bond me with Patte that you made from 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.719 some some game livers, dear liver and something else. Putting. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.120 I would bet you there's no way we can find 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.240 out but that it might not be the bulk of 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.919 our listeners would know what Suvi is. I'm guessing I 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:49.640 would take that bat would you're saying that of the 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:56.760 mugs listening right now, less than half are familiar with SUVI. Yeah. Well, 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.240 I'm just saying that that's a high probability, high enough 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.400 where I would take the sure break it down. But 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.159 some Suvie cooking basic Let me do this. You know 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.400 what Suvie is. I don't know, Mr durn, don't look 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:20.560 at me. Man, So half of this room, um, and 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:26.400 they actually count of listeners, I really don't. But you 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:32.880 basically there's a it's cooking in water and so that 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.960 you're cooking meat and water, actually cook anything. There's vegetable recipes, 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:41.960 there's fish recipes, but so that you don't uh, you know, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.640 basically boil your meat and get it all soggy. You 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.440 put it into a sealed plastic bag. Now you can 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.560 just use a regular old ziplock, or if you have 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.840 a vacuum sealer, you can go that route. Um. The machine, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.280 the way that the whole system step is usually just 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.200 used like a large stockpot, maybe a two or your 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.000 gallon stockpot. And then there's a machine that looks like 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:08.720 a I don't know, it's wand shaped, I guess, um, 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:10.960 And basically half of it plunges down into the water 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.880 and it regulates the temperature of the water. And I 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.560 don't know what the lowest and highest settings are, but 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:18.680 you basically just set that and it keeps it at 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.480 a perfect temp that you want to keep it at 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.520 for however long you want to do it. Yeah, Like 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.880 you like if you're cooking, Like let's say you're cooking 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.200 a roast and you want to pull the roast it 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:29.880 for rare, you know you want to pull, you pull, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.560 you want to pull your venison rolls. So say you like, 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:37.200 I like to pull it up. Well, the ovens four 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.720 d degrees, right, So this thing is climbing, climb and climb, 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.600 and to eventually reach that and you're intercepting it at 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:49.360 that point where you want to nap it out then 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:54.280 and there you are. Yeah. Added, the complication of that 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.480 set is that you pull it at one temp knowing 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.400 that it's going to continue to rise to your goal 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:01.920 temperature because the outer heat is going to continue to 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.520 penetrate into the inside. So this you just said that 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.280 what you want to end up at exactly. So if 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.520 you're cooking, if you know that you like your salmon, 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.360 say at blank temp, you just set your water bath 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.360 at that temp drop in your back. So I mean, 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:18.960 if you think about it, like if you said it 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.840 at one sixty, the meat never gets above one sixty. Yeah, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.760 but what does happen is that there is a breaking 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:32.920 down of you know, proteins. Obviously because I cooked my 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:37.320 shanks for forty eight hours and hours, that's the thing. 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:42.240 But again the recipe was like, it's like we could 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.280 have eight eaten it Saturday night. Instead we ate it Sunday. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.160 It's perfect on Tuesday, and it's perfect on Wednesday because 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.440 it's just keeping it at that temperature that whole time. 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.000 It's not rising, which I think when you're going for 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.680 a medium rare steak is important. But in this case 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:02.439 the shanks, it's obviously continuing to break it down, which 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.400 is I think where it might get a little bit trickier. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.160 The window might not be as great when you are 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:08.640 working with a piece of me that you want to 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:13.040 eat it medium rare, because medium rare or whatever, hundred 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:17.000 thirty degrees after six hours is going to be different 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.640 than a hundred thirty degrees after ten hours. Oh yeah, 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.760 I kind of exaggerate about done on Tuesday and down 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.160 on Wednesday, same temperature on Tuesday, same temperature on Wednesday. 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.959 But it has a Hessy effect of you can screw 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:30.640 it up, you can screw it up. I don't know 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.280 exactly how yet. I'll know more. I'm gonna keep messing 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.040 around with it, but well, I know how like things 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:38.960 that I've screwed up is, I've found it. When it 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:44.120 comes to cooking wild game For me personally, UM, I 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:49.920 don't like. I don't like to use the Suvi for 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.640 like lean gross that don't have a lot of connective 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.480 tissue on them, such as like if you were to 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.400 take a white tail deer and take the sirloin or 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.360 round rolls off the back leg, I can get a 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.840 better effect. I can get a better product in my 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.520 oven that I can get with my Suvie because it 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.760 gives it to my taste, it gives it a sort 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:16.040 of pastiness. Where I think it really shines is when 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:21.160 it comes down to cooking things. It's it's an easy, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:25.880 pretty failsafe way to cook cuts that are best cooked 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:32.120 slow cooked strategy, like I've taken one of the one 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.199 of the things I made that I liked most was 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.000 Suvi was I took one time. I have Elena front 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:42.280 leg of have alna, which is a rascally little a 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.280 rascally little hunkle. It just sounds tough. Yes, yeah, you 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.559 can pull those strands out and flash your teeth with them. Okay, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.480 but in that thing, I think I gave it like 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:57.600 thirty six hours, um, and then it just is like 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.440 you could just pick it apart of your fingers and 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.360 it's silk and beautiful. Yeah. Well I just kind of 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:07.040 tossed those picked all that meat, kind of tossed him 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.439 with oil and then stuck him under a broiler for 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:11.439 a minute because the thing was stuvee. Cooking is you're 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.839 oftentimes getting it just right. But what you get used 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.240 to And I remember one time a chef like reading 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.319 about the chef who was wanted to quit being a chef, 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.360 and he says, well, I just got bored with it. Um, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.560 making things soft on the inside and crispy on the outside. 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.400 It just got old to me. But when you do 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:31.800 a roast in your oven, like one of the nice 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.160 things about it is you get that like that like 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:39.040 finished outside, you know, like crispy browned outside, and you 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.680 cut in and low behold, there's like this magical red 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.559 middle and it's like the whole thing together. All the 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.920 parts are bigger than any individual part. The texture that 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.400 meat of a nice roast like that, the texture and 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:52.560 the meat is a part of it. And if the 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.280 other way of cooking is breaking that down, then I 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.240 see where you're because you wind up with the whole 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.360 beauty of it, like the crispy outside, the red size, 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.040 like it's all nice together. So what a part of 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.160 Stuvie cook Like most Suvie preparations, you'll find that you're 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.760 gonna get it perfect and then see it after the fact. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.240 Whereas if I'm cooking rolls to my oven, I see 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.680 it and finishing my oven. Here you're off and like 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.000 a lot of if you're looking at the Suvie a 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:22.160 lot of preparations, you're starting it. You get it all done, 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.080 it's ready to go. Can you take that thing out 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.000 and see it? Or people even finish them with like 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.840 a torch apparatus, right like you might like eat people 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.480 to do like Suvie scallops and then take a torch 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.440 and see here the scout with a torch and really 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.880 control that. Then you know. So it's real science he cooking. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.719 But as good as it is for some stuff, I 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.160 don't think it's like perfect. It's not like perfect for everything. No, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:49.640 I don't think all of a sudden, I'm just gonna 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:54.280 start having just get ready your oven. Five buckets in 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.800 the kitchen, and one says Monday and Tuesday Wednesday. But 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.120 I'll tell you what's cool, though, is you could take 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.480 a couple, let's say, because you did chanks right, how 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.160 they turn out great? So I had I did a 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.800 m sick of dear shank, the whole shank in the bag. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.640 It had a white tail shank. And then I had 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.040 one bag. I think they had three or four of those. Again, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:19.960 do you know the name of that little it's like 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.360 a shank, but you know it's not connected to the bone. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.680 It's connected to that that goes up on the hind leg. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:28.800 We kind of get that big shank like peace right, 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.240 It has all that same seeing you in college and 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.720 stuff running through it. And um, the ones on the 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:41.680 bone were just delightful, this silky smooth, wonderful flavor. Um, 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:46.080 and no dryness at all about him. The antelope little 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.640 football tendon chunks I just described. Um there's still a 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.440 touch of dryness and it wasn't the SUV's fault. It's 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.480 just the cut of me. It just didn't have as 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.640 much fat, connected tissue whatever it is as the shanks 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.560 that were on the bone. Yeah, that's that's kind of 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.680 like the sort of the thing with all forms of 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:10.640 cooking is um not all hunks of meat made equal. No, 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.720 if you went to make sure, if you took some 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.040 like surloin meat and went and did a a shank 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.480 preparation for it's gonna be miserable. But there's something about 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.200 those those pieces that have all that collagen or stuff 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.720 that breaks to connective tissue, silver skin, tendons that break 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:36.240 down into that just like silky beautiness. I love it um. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.640 Well to say it's nice thing about it is, if 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.000 let's say you're having some folks over for dinner, you 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.280 could bag out servings, stick them in that thing and 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:51.320 you don't know you're eating at five o'clock or eight o'clock. Right. Yeah, 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.720 you can bag out serving stick them in that thing 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.520 the day, a day and a half before, two days before, 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.640 a day before whatever, for your partic your preparation, knowing 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:03.360 that at the second you want to reach in there 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.800 and cut those bags open, it's already but you're just 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.040 you're just like putting you know, you're you're putting all 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:15.280 the ingredients in there, you can you know. Yeah, what 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.920 I'm saying like like you know, you're if you're doing shanks, 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.480 you're putting all the azabuco, all the things would traditionally 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.480 going to asa bugle in that bag and stealing that 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.360 bag up and putting them in there. What I'd like 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.240 to mess around with a little bit is like I 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.880 was thinking about maybe putting like a couple of sprigs 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.680 at time in there, sprig of rose man, some butter, 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.800 you know, maybe trying to some wonder if it will 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.480 impart that flavor. No, I feel, yeah, I've packed that 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.960 bag full of good things to eat, even you know, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.360 doing something like the Havolino sang. But yeah, I just 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.920 like for me though, cooking those like loin and loin 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.800 and like quality roast. It's like I get such what 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.280 I get out of my oven cannot be beatn yes, 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.360 can you. It's more of a replacement for basically brazing technique. 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:09.000 It's a nice it's a nice fail safe, time friendly. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.639 It takes a lot of time to do it, but 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:15.359 it's good preparation. And when you said that you're putting 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.479 all kinds of good So you're like putting vegetables and 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.320 all kinds of things in with it. Sure you can't 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.679 know that the vegetables are going to be yeah, because 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:24.520 like you know everything even then everything has its own 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:29.119 cookie time. I mean there's like it's it's becoming such 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.320 a popular thing now that there's no short you can 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.600 go find recipes for anything. Should you go buy us? 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.639 If you buy a Suvie device, it's gonna come with 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.639 a book. You realize every damn thing you've ever eaten 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:47.720 now one thing? Uh Um. Steve Kendrot, he's been doing salmon, 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:49.680 Like I gave him some salmon from the fish shack. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.359 He's doing salmon and his Suvie and loving it. That 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.520 dude is a Suvie fool. Now he knows about it, 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.159 you know, he damned sure know about it. He likes it. 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.760 I sent him some vacuum bags and he was he 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.440 was more fired up about Suvian with him than he 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.639 was about freezing him. Huh. Speaking of Steve, I was 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:16.479 also telling you that made his Fennel sauceag dress um, 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.560 which it's just it's it's so good. It might be 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.000 so good because it is so simple. But literally all 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:27.880 it is is fat, salt, pepper, and fennel. Well meat. Yeah, 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:30.760 so you got your yeah, you got your buck meat. 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.960 Then he caught the fat in. Yeah, a lot of fat. 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:39.199 It's his recipe was fifty fifty's much and I had 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.600 the sauceage is phenomenal. But I think it's like, but 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:42.960 I wanted the first time I wanted to do it. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:44.800 I want to follow the recipe because I feel like 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:46.720 you should. And then you can tweak it because you 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.520 just never know otherwise. So next time I probably will 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:54.400 cut it back to forty, maybe even thirty. Um. Yeah, 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.159 And my thinking of it goes to be honest, like 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.719 what tastes good fifty fifty. At some point it ceases 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.119 to be a wild game dish, that's true. At some 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:08.120 point it becomes it's like a hybrid. It's all a hybrid. 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.160 Like my brother used to be like a real purist 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.840 and he wouldn't put any domestic fat in his gaming. 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.000 He would just if he was making burgers, he'd crack 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.800 an egg in there, Danny, he'd crack an egg in 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:20.639 there so he could make it hold together into patty. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:28.320 That's extreme I think is extreme. I find my personal 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:35.240 comfort zone in the ten to fat. Yeah, but I 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.520 feel like, to me, sausage, it can't be sausage. And 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.760 if there's if it's not like greasy enough, there's gotta 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.440 be some grease left in the pan, because otherwise I 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.840 feel like you're just eating this like thing that kind 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:52.639 of tastes like sausage because the flavors there. But something 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.359 is just not sausage like because you've taken too much 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.080 fat out. Okay, then let's come up with a different 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.919 word for it. Meat. Uh sticks, No, that's not right. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:09.840 I get what you're saying. Sausage flavor dry meat, ground dry, 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.879 ground meat, sauceage flavor dry me. I'm cool with that, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.480 but his sausage is really good. Anyways, Yeah, back to it, 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.000 and the recipe came out wonderful. I mean it's just 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.919 so simple fennel. I mean it's all you're like tasting 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.560 and salt, pepper, and it's wonder Does he toast his 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.800 fennel first? I don't know if the recipe didn't call 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.720 for that's a good trick man, when you're making sausage 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:32.959 like whatever, like sweet Italian any kind of sausage. You're 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.959 putting fennel in there. Take all your seeds and toast them, right, 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.680 what does that do? Smells your whole house up, like 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.639 fennel smells good man. I don't know if it then 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.920 goes away, but just like really like pleasing. If you 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.440 toast them and you get them all warm, like coriander, fennel, whatever, 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:52.040 you put them in a pan over burn is a 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.920 dry pan over burner, kind of shake it and they'll 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.440 kind of let off like a like an oil, and 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.040 they'll get very fragrant. Then throw those. But if they're 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.359 still warm, you throw those in your coffee grinder. If 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.439 you're doing like if you're like pulverizing a little bit, 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.639 then you really got something that smells nice. I think 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:10.200 it's got to add to the flavor because there's a 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.480 lot of dishes, like when you're cooking Indian food, A 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.879 lot of times like you've sauteed your onions and and 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:17.960 maybe a couple of the other things that you're sautang 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:19.840 like that in the oil that might take five or 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.320 ten minutes. And before you add like let's just say 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.639 ifest curry, before you add the coconut milk and your carrots, 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.800 and peas and chicken or whatever it might be. UM, 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.000 when you throw the spices in, you let them kind 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.680 of cooking toast in that pan for a couple of 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.960 minutes to you know, release extra flavor, and then you 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:41.640 add in the rest of the ingredients. So I'm sure 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.760 it works the same for that funnel. The next thing 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:46.359 I'm gonna sue v and this is the last we'll 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.760 talk about it. I still have two big gass yellow 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.520 eye flats that I've been eyeballing in my freezer, and 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.480 I wanted to get to them pretty quick. They last 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:57.560 a lot longer in salmon and the freezer because they're 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.520 not that fatty. But I'm gonna do those. I'm gonna 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.159 do those guys with my SUV machine. I used to 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.240 have a giant Stuvie machine that came with like what 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.320 looked like you can wash a child in the tub. 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.040 But I gave it to my buddy Pooter because now 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:18.720 I got that smaller one. Um. Pat Dark and Doug 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:27.679 during the Cousins, the Drek and during Cousins Pat. Okay, 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:32.040 it doesn't really matter what you say, because it's not 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:39.360 gonna change in my mind. What who who has tell 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:45.520 me about your opinions on your findings on wound wound loss. 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.920 I was gonna say before you even said what you said, 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.520 I was gonna say, I know, Mary, what do I 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.920 say right now? I probably won't change your mind. You 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.439 were going to preface, Yeah, I was gonna be my preface. Um, 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:05.440 I'll start by saying one article I've always liked. The 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:07.959 way I handled it was I broke it down one 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.280 time in a Wisconsin gun season to show that our 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.280 peak deer season was the year two thousand when we 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:18.200 killed like over four hundred thousand deer in Wisconsin and 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.040 we basically if I broke it down to show that 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.720 we were killing about one point four deer per second 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.040 during that nine day guns season, and you break it 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:28.959 over the course of the nine day season, and then 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.480 I started calculating. I started looking into it to kill 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:39.760 one point four deer second. Comment, So, all right, did 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:42.320 you ever figure it out like an opening day? No? See, 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.560 actually I actually did that, but I don't have that. 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:50.200 I don't have that at the tip of my tongue. No. 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.280 I actually did break it down by by UM opening 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:57.200 weekend and then UM opening Day and then the rest 0:23:57.240 --> 0:23:58.720 of the season. I had this whole article on this 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:02.200 whole topic, so real, real quick. On opening day of 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:04.000 the four hundred thousand they got killed in the season, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:06.760 can you guess how many got killed in open open 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.320 the weekend typically opening weekend. I think they figure close 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:13.280 to sixty percent gets killed opening weekend night. Then it 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:16.680 just kind of goes down picks back up around Thanksgiving 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:19.800 because we always have our season around starts the weekend 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:23.200 before Thanksgiving, the ends the Sunday after Thanksgiving. How big 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:25.760 was the deer herd this year? The year you're talking about, um, 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:28.359 that was like an all time record numbers. So I 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:32.239 think they calculated one five million deer or so one 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:35.560 point six million they they estimated in that population, and 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:37.720 they were able to they were able to pull a 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.080 harvest of four hundred It wasn't even more a four 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.120 hundred dollars. And that was at the time regarded as 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:45.840 like wildly too many deers. Oh yeah, I mean well, 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.400 I think realistic people I thought that was too many deer. 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:51.760 We had too many deer and deer on the ground 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.280 not getting killed. But then you go into, um, what 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:57.160 hunters want though, and there was a lot of hunters 0:24:57.200 --> 0:25:00.600 that your thousand that was a pretty mediocre to average season, 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.600 you know, so you always get those arguments A happy 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:06.720 never happy. As I said the last time we talked, 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.080 deer make people stupid, just the way it is. Um. 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:16.040 But to continue my discussion though, is I UM, I 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:18.840 got curious about that after for shooting that made dear 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:22.320 you know, deer per second, and I think last season 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:25.359 was point zero point six two deer per second in 0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:28.720 the last cutting season two thousand seventeen, two seventeen was 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:34.240 zero point six to deer, so point six deer per second, 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:36.919 and in two thousand it was more than more than 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:41.480 double that over the average out of the course during 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:46.640 hunting hours. I just was doing some math there exactly. Yeah, yeah, 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:48.320 I broke it. I broke it down by hours of 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:53.119 shooting light, the kind of thing. And then, um, what 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.040 was fun then was I took those kind of numbers 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:58.639 and started digging into the research I could find on 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:02.920 on how how many shots get fired for each year killed. 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:06.000 And there actually is you know, some research around Wisconsin 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.840 from the seventies, and there's research from Carolina, South Carolina 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:14.520 in two thousand, not that time period. UM Ontario did 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:18.240 this one time, but basically Wisconsin back in the seventies 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:22.280 nineteen seventies UM, and some of the research that did 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:27.200 was it was averaging between three point five and seven 0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:32.040 shots per year taken was about what was coming at Yeah, this, 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:34.439 this is, this is in one area. This is never 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:37.000 only as qualifiers. We're all never convinced you because it's 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:40.920 most studies are taking place in controlled settings because he 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:42.600 can't just squa out in the landscape with all the 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:47.800 variables and get anything interesting. And so anyway, you had 0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:50.520 this variability because they had different kind of seasons. They 0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:53.439 sept one season was endless only, so the guys had 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:55.520 to be more careful when you shot that you weren't 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:57.760 shooting a buck, So that that kind of cuts down 0:26:57.760 --> 0:27:00.480 how many how many shots are being fired if you 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.040 have a wide open season where anything is legal. They 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.280 were shooting a lot. They shot like almost twice of 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:07.720 many shots and those kind of seasons. But then I 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:10.280 looked at m I phone this this research from South 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:14.120 Carolina looked into that, and they were shooting only one 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:17.400 point two times for each deer they killed. And those 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:21.200 guys that were sitting up and basically shooting house rateful 0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:25.320 of rest nice setups were there, touching out the shots 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:29.199 like a real precision type shooting. And then you had 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:33.000 um other scenarios. So none of these things are all equal. 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:35.400 You know, I'm getting that here. So so I fine, 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:38.360 I did was I had? So so the South Carolinians 0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:45.320 are when they looked at this, they were shooting not much, 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.800 not much one point two shots per deer. But who 0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:51.920 was up? Who was super high again Wisconsin man, you guys? 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:58.560 Yeah it was but of course to well right not 0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:01.840 not now what Doug brings point, it's a fair point 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:05.400 because plus the plus they're hunting an area where guys 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:08.600 couldn't go in set up tripod stands, I couldn't hang 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:11.760 all these different things. It's probably being shot off the ground, 0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:17.120 you know, offhand, and so the conditions weren't liked. Yeah, 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:21.159 it's probably more like shitty scopes the way that the 0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:24.560 way yes old guys used to hunt. You know, I 0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:27.320 took a lot more shots when I was younger. Yeah, 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:29.720 but then but then so like what I did though, 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:32.640 is I looked at these different variables and thought read 0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:36.560 us range from one point to deer per shot two 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:42.520 over seven? So anyway at seven shots, yeah, and and 0:28:42.800 --> 0:28:46.600 and and I just I can't understand it. I'm not 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:49.960 I'm not calling you a liar. I just don't understand it. 0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:54.440 Where a lot of that comes from is that you're 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:57.160 shooting lover her actions, pump shots, shotguns, that kind of stuff, 0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:00.440 some atomatics, and and they're shooting showing too that once 0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:04.040 a guy um missed a shot, well he had follow 0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:06.920 up shots, and like half the guy shooting at that 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:09.880 first shot, we're missing the shot, right, and then the 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:11.920 dude takes off and bang bang bang. All of a sudden, 0:29:11.920 --> 0:29:14.000 there's lead in the air. So you can say he 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:17.080 does that three times, and he does that two times, 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:19.560 and then it gets a deer fun yeah, and you think, well, 0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.280 I but I'm pulled the hunting grounds up the river 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:27.400 here and um Wendona, Minnesota back in the early nineties, 0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:31.400 and I remember thinking every time it sounds like no 0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:34.080 shotguns one off because it shocking the only area if 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:36.680 it's not like they're shooting all five shots. So that's 0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:39.680 some atomatic, you know, shotgun or pump shotgun. It was. 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.040 It was constant, and so I would I guess I'm 0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:44.240 not that shocked by hearing that seven was average in 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:46.680 this one particular. There's there's one hunt that this one 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:49.040 on like that. Yeah, if you go read Yanni's buddy 0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:56.000 Jack O'Connor, I'll call Jannie O'Connor Jack O'Connor. All those 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:59.280 guys did was shoot. Yeah, they'd crawl up on a 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:02.960 her to something and it would be the you know, 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:06.400 twenty rounds and then they'd go up and like analyze 0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:10.400 the performance. The first shot caught it, you know, low 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:14.680 across the chin, second shot, the second, third, and fourth, fifth, 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:19.320 and sixth with them. My seventh shot really brought anchored 0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:24.840 it down. Well, so sure, yeah, so what I did 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:29.760 those at average done? I thought, well, seven is obviously 0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:32.760 throw that one out once. Yeah, that's the other extreme. 0:30:32.800 --> 0:30:35.040 But average is out and you came up. My average 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.640 came up the three point four or five shots per second, 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:41.480 I mean per per per deer. And so then I 0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:44.920 started calculating that. I thought, well, last gun season Wisconsin, 0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:47.840 if you use three point five point five three point 0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:52.080 four or five shots per deer last year in Wisconsin, 0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:54.440 we was shot close to eight hundred thousand rounds to 0:30:54.480 --> 0:30:56.960 get to get that number of deer. We we brought 0:30:57.080 --> 0:30:59.720 front in last last fall. And during that season that 0:30:59.840 --> 0:31:02.640 I talked about our record season it was up in 0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:05.400 Uh yeah, I think a million and a half shots. 0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:09.440 And well then I went and I thought, I looked 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:12.600 at the top ten deer states in our country, and 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.440 that year two thousand and I came up to it's 0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:19.120 like twelve and a half million rounds. If you're using 0:31:19.160 --> 0:31:22.120 that as your average, we're being fired. So then so 0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:25.360 I'm working my way back to your discussion here. You know, 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:29.200 I have it. It's just too staggering for me though. 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:33.640 It's huge. And so when when we get these discussions 0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:39.160 about wounding, I've always maintained that in my own experience, 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:42.520 it's it's tougher when I look at every year i've killed. 0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:45.680 I've killed over a hundred of them. I think when 0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:48.040 I've shot the one is the rifle I didn't I 0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:49.840 didn't always know if I got him or not. By that, 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.760 by the way, the dear responded, where I thought most 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:54.760 of your shout the bowl, I've always known if I 0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:56.960 hit him or not. I mean, I don't think I've 0:31:56.960 --> 0:32:00.280 ever been shocked. You know that I missed one or right, 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:03.400 or I hit one that that that I thought I missed, 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:05.280 that kind of thing. That's a good point. Yeah, gun 0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:10.080 hunting bull hunting. You you don't, Yeah, you don't usually 0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:14.120 like can't tell if you you typically might you might want, 0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:17.000 you might shoot and then not be clear on the 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:20.240 quality of it. Oh, that's that's common. I mean you 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:22.360 talked that's almost not not quite the dorm, but it's 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:25.280 pretty typically not a little like man, oh, it looked 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:26.880 like it might be a little far back, Yeah, a 0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:29.080 little high. When you talk to guys at track deer 0:32:29.120 --> 0:32:31.760 with with with dogs and they asked the guy, where'd 0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:33.720 you hit this deer? And the typical bull on say 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:37.560 right here in the pocket and the shoulder, and they 0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:40.000 find the deer and that's got you know, you know, 0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:42.160 in the hand, in the hams. You know, who knows 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:45.480 where you know? So so so I've always thought that 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:49.479 if you really get some research on this, what research 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.800 we have, and find out what the percentages are for 0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:57.640 bull hunting versus gun hunting, I'm I'm pretty well convinced 0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:02.560 that it's about equal. I really, Uh it's it's because 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.000 but again, what what that that that you know it's 0:33:06.040 --> 0:33:09.360 pulled holes or my argument because all of those studies 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:12.880 have been basically done under pretty controlled situations. You know, 0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:15.000 bull hunting the ones they've been able to study are 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:18.760 typically control situations. It's like the one that's famous for 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.640 the initial one that we often refer to. It up 0:33:21.640 --> 0:33:24.280 here at Camp Propley, a couple hundred miles from here 0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:28.040 in Minnesota, and there they had um their their initial 0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:33.280 wounding UM number percentage of deer wounded was I think 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:37.880 around writ in that range. But then they figured that 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:41.520 they realized, well, just because the deer is wounded doesn't 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:43.800 mean it's it's dead. It doesn't mean it's I'm not 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:46.800 gonna be recovered. And sure enough they found that in 0:33:46.880 --> 0:33:48.560 that situation is a lot of hunters in that in 0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:52.760 that camp. And these are weekend hunts. I should should 0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:55.400 have that too, just strictly a two day hunt that 0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:59.320 it's done. It's a real control situation. But they found 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:03.080 was that, um, they're average over over four thing. It's 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:07.960 like four different hunts they they studied, only of those 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:10.759 deer were never recovered. Of those deer that were shot 0:34:10.840 --> 0:34:15.720 and hit in some location, only on average weren't recovered 0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:20.719 taking home, taking home, you know, a guy dragged that 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.960 deer out of the alf the cants property. Now, um, 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:28.360 then there's also indible condition. Yeah, yeah, because you know 0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:32.200 at Sunday at at this is on Saturday, Sunday hunt 0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:36.040 that they did Camp Ripley Sunday afternoon. The Army basically 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:38.040 throws you out. You can't go back and look for 0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:40.680 your deer if you don't have it. Tough luck, you know. 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:44.440 So that's what that was, the unrecovered deer was and 0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:50.080 this was which weapon arrow that was back in the 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:55.319 early nineties. And so that's one study. Then the other 0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:57.680 days they've done. One was out in Connecticut and that 0:34:58.080 --> 0:35:02.080 suburban area. One was over Iowa in a suburban area. 0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:05.000 And then there's like a naval weapons station out in 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:08.080 Maryland did one well not too long ago. They wrapped 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:11.359 it up about ten years ago, and there's was one 0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:14.680 of Maryland. I think there wounding rate was um, I 0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:17.560 think eighteen percent where these are deer that were hit 0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:22.960 and not recovered. Now, the one in Connecticut was about 0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:26.160 I think fourteen thirteen pcent and the one in Iowa 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:30.520 suburbs was about so and then then the one with 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:34.239 now now switching to rifle. How many of these rely 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:38.240 on self reporting? Well, they all rely on self reporting. 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:41.680 That's what okay. And when I earlier when I said 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:44.520 that no matter what you said, won't because because I 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:47.160 know that relies on self reporting. Yeah. But but what 0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:49.839 they find too is self reporting typically is that if 0:35:49.880 --> 0:35:51.840 you get the people right on the spot when they 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:54.440 come in. Most of these guys, like in these in 0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:58.440 these suburban hunts, these are guys that, um, I'm pretty 0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:00.440 sure the one and well I know the one Connecticut 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:02.600 was a shooting test. He had to pass the shooting 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.200 testable when they're to even be allowed to hunt. And 0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:10.640 I think the one in Iowa had that kind of speculation. Well, yeah, 0:36:10.719 --> 0:36:12.680 that's and then again that's in near a factor that 0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:16.560 these are people who are dead serious bull hunters who 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:19.799 know that taking long shots is used to increase the risk. 0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:23.880 But what I found interesting looking at that South Carolina 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:27.400 study and with a rifle, these are dead serious riflemen, 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:32.799 and these guys they're sitting there with basically a little 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:36.880 tripods and they're shooting set up there. They're typically shooting 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:39.880 on a fifty yards and aren't five yards, and they 0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:42.719 found a real split once you started going beyond yards. 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:46.120 Even these guys were really good, they started hitting more 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:49.000 deer and not knowing if they hit him, losing them. 0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:51.399 That kind of thing, but every shot taken, every deer 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.480 fired at in that study, they had dogs, they'd go 0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:58.160 out there and look around, and and that study that 0:36:58.239 --> 0:37:01.720 they end up finding out that they figured the wounding 0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:05.840 it was about fit, was about wounding loss. Even with 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:10.440 that these really good shots shooting control settings, not taking 0:37:10.480 --> 0:37:13.160 these long flyers, they were still you know, had a 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.120 fifteen wounding loss And a lot of those do they'd 0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:18.440 never have found if not for the dogs going out 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:20.799 there and finding evidence of a hit that they thought 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:23.720 they missed, you know, because you know, you know, everyone 0:37:23.800 --> 0:37:26.200 here has been a situations where you fired a shot 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:28.960 on to fit the yards across the field or whatever. 0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:31.640 You walk over and you look around, look around, look around, 0:37:31.680 --> 0:37:34.080 you can't find the sign, and a lot of people 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:36.440 would give up not not looking any further. There's no 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.400 snow cover in many cases. And that's the factor that 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.839 all these moving parts is what makes a wounding loss 0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:45.480 so hard to ever really pinned down for sure, is 0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:48.600 that you have so many different conditions, so many different 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:53.319 um ways that things can go wrong, that it's hard 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:55.920 to really quantify this stuff. But what we have the 0:37:55.960 --> 0:38:00.279 qualify really show is pretty strikingly similar results. So why 0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:02.960 I say I would, I would have a hard time 0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:06.680 being convinced that bull is wound any more on a 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:14.640 percentage basis than rifles. Handful of thoughts. In keeping with 0:38:14.960 --> 0:38:19.840 today's political atmosphere, I'm just gonna ignore the data, okay, 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:24.920 and just go with what I know is. I'm just 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:31.919 gonna go what I know is right. Um. But I had, yeah, 0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:36.040 a couple of things. One is, this isn't this is 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:40.320 not to me, this is not a moral argument, Okay, 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:46.320 Like to me, the UM, I think each person strives 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:51.279 to well damn sure better strive to be is effective 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:56.759 and human and as efficient as possible. UM. And I 0:38:56.800 --> 0:38:58.799 think that when you go into the woods, no matter 0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.840 like how high your skill set and how good your intentions, 0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:07.440 there's always the chance that something can go wrong, and 0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:09.880 it will if you stick at it long enough, and 0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:12.520 you'll hit something that you don't find it just it 0:39:12.640 --> 0:39:17.560 just happens. So by saying that one is more or 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:20.600 less effect one method of hunting, you know, we could 0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:23.440 even break out crossbows and break out trad archery and 0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:27.479 break out um, you know, conventional archery, tackle and break 0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:30.160 out firearms. UM. No matter how much you break it 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:32.480 down and start comparing them to me. It's not like 0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:35.319 you're not like trying to find a value judgment. You're 0:39:35.360 --> 0:39:38.120 You're not looking for like who's right, who's correct, and 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:41.080 who's incorrect, who's right and who's wrong. I'm not chasing 0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:47.200 after that. So it makes it that the discussion, Um yeah, 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:50.200 it's an acade. It's more it's almost an academic subject, 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:55.120 I think. But it can and inform things I am generally. 0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.160 That's one thought. Another thought is I'm generally leery of 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:03.680 and like just anecdotal stuff. Okay, but in a case 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:11.000 like this, I have so much anecdotal evidence gathered over 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:15.320 such a long period of time where I'm able to 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:21.880 rule out the inherent errors of self reporting. We're just 0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:24.879 from experiences and the experiences of people who I'm very 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:30.320 close with and I understand their skill sets. Um, I, 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:35.600 you haven't changed my opinion. I feel that if you 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:38.680 take something like like you take something like ELK, Okay, 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:42.160 take something like ELK. I think that there is a 0:40:45.000 --> 0:40:48.560 much higher rate of wound loss. And this is informed 0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:51.040 by personal opinion as well as opinion of many other people. 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:53.560 There's a much higher rate of wound loss on ELK 0:40:53.640 --> 0:40:56.120 with archery equipment than there is the firearm equip equipment. 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:02.080 It's like I've just I know, I just know as 0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:05.680 bad as that sounds, well, and I'm not telling you 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:07.120 what to do with that. I'll not tell anybody what 0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:08.799 to do with that piece of information. But it's the thing. 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:10.399 It's like a debate that comes up all the time. 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:14.000 But here's the thing. My part number three this and 0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:17.719 then then it's yours again. Part number three is we 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:21.720 don't know the mortality question. Okay. At one time found 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:27.040 I was out on a backpacking trip, well Lama backpacking, 0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:30.920 you know, backpacking with Lama trip in the summertime and 0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:36.840 the Idaho Panhandle, and I lost my spoon and found 0:41:36.880 --> 0:41:40.480 an elk carcass or elk skeleton, and was trying to 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:43.000 figure out what bone would be most suitable to craft 0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:45.359 a new spoon out of that I could reach into 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:48.560 a freeze dry bag with. And I started looking at 0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:53.120 the thoracic process on the vertebra, and I thought, damn, 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:56.080 it looks like a great spoon. So I picked up 0:41:56.160 --> 0:41:59.239 one of the vertebra to be like the one they 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:01.680 had the longest rascic process, So the one that's kind 0:42:01.680 --> 0:42:05.760 of like above the animals hump and lo and behold 0:42:06.239 --> 0:42:10.680 embedded within the bone. The bone entirely healed around it 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:15.400 is a muzzy broadhead. Their slogan is bad to the bone. 0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:19.200 I put pictures of this up on We'll put a 0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:21.920 picture up in the show notes. But so here's the 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:25.680 thing growing around it. Now, the guy that shot that 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:33.600 arrow maybe would would probably be surprised to learn that 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:38.839 that thing took the hit somehow. The arrow shaft unthreaded 0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:41.279 because it was just a naked broadhead, no piece of 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:45.880 shaft on it unthreaded. The elk heeled around the broadhead. 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:48.239 And I know that died in the winter because they 0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:52.200 had dropped it was it died with dropped andlers. So 0:42:52.280 --> 0:42:55.840 however long it takes to calcify, like to completely encase 0:42:55.960 --> 0:43:00.440 a broadhead and calcified bone on your vertebra, that guy 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:03.520 might think, oh, he might be all depressed still about 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:07.080 that bully killed and couldn't find when it wasn't dead. 0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:09.600 So that's the other thing is when we talk about 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:11.800 wound loss, we're just saying, like, you didn't find it. 0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:15.839 But what we don't know is what's lethal and what's 0:43:15.880 --> 0:43:22.719 not lethal. So that matters to me. But what you 0:43:22.840 --> 0:43:25.439 just the story just told, isn't that a Pro Bowl? 0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:28.360 Pro Bowl? If you take a pro on kan No, 0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:29.960 don't look at it is either. I'm just saying. What 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:32.560 I'm saying is in sussing out the answer which I'm 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:34.560 interested what I was trying to build up there one 0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:36.320 is one. Nothing says can't change in my mind. That 0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:42.200 was playing one too. It doesn't really matter except for 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.279 just it's good. I just like to know stuff I'm not. 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:46.640 I'm not gonna like go and make like like well, 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:49.400 if I was like a ruler of the world and 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:51.239 I had all the answers in front of me, I 0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:53.640 wouldn't like go and make a decision around except for 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:58.200 except for in cases like, for instance, when you're there's 0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:02.759 some bare units in Alaska where when you wound a bear, 0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:08.320 you not your tag. That kind of thing I'm generally 0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:14.240 in favor of. I'm open to that and in favor 0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:17.320 of that in places you wound the animal, you're not 0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:21.040 your tag. But that leads again into point three, because 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:23.520 that's under the assumption that you've removed an animal. And 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:26.040 what we don't know in this is it's hard to tell. 0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:30.320 It's hard to tell it's hard to study the survival rates. 0:44:30.760 --> 0:44:33.799 So you fire an narrow what you get a hit. 0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:37.200 You trail the blood, there's no blood. You start cutting circles. 0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:38.960 You come back the next day, cut a million circles. 0:44:39.120 --> 0:44:41.319 Can't find blood. Your body can't find blood. He brings 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:45.000 out his fail safe dog. The dog can't find anything. Um, 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:50.920 it's a dead or not. So that was That was 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:52.920 the part Three is like, you still don't know even 0:44:52.960 --> 0:44:56.120 when you know. And the thing I gonna say is 0:44:56.200 --> 0:45:01.160 that I fully agree with you on the idea that 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:05.880 this is not a moral discussion. I've always The other 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:07.520 thing I should have said too, I could have prefaced 0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:11.919 it with, is that we're the only predator with the conscience. Yeah. Yeah, 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:14.320 We're the only predator that tries to make a science 0:45:14.360 --> 0:45:16.879 out of how we go about the stuff. We really 0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:18.920 try to figure out what's the best freaking way to 0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:22.399 kill that deer every damn time, you know, down dead. 0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:26.400 And because I think, well, when a hawk hits a rabbit, 0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:30.440 I've been on hawk hunts and it's pretty pretty fascinating. 0:45:30.440 --> 0:45:33.800 They're pretty good. But they have wounding loss. Brothers have 0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:35.839 wounding loss. So I will I will never get into 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:38.920 this right or wrong discussion is I think that that 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.880 means bullshit is part of the part of the equation. 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:45.279 It's just I think hunting is we're the only ones 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:48.759 that worry about it as humans. So but one of 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:51.319 the things I'll say more thinking real quick, and then 0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:54.920 Doug say something because dogs dogs waiting to go here. Um. 0:45:56.040 --> 0:45:58.200 The thing I would say that about about the story 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:02.400 with the errow wound. One thing that I think we 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:05.040 can say from some of the research too, is that 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:07.920 a deer that's wounded with a bow and arrow is 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:10.800 much more likely to survive the wound, and and and 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:14.839 go on. And it might not be it's not nice, 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:16.839 it's not pleasant. I'm sure to carry a broad head 0:46:16.880 --> 0:46:19.440 around in your spinal column or and your shoulder blade 0:46:19.520 --> 0:46:22.759 or leg bones, yeah, I mean, but humans have done too. 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:28.399 And so I'm saying Jim Bridger carried carried arrowhead around 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:31.080 his back. I think about your dad. Your dad walked 0:46:31.080 --> 0:46:35.680 around how many years with pellets and his Yes, so 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:38.680 it happens, and it's not I'm not excusing it, but 0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:43.840 I'm saying this, this stuff happens. And another story, remember 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:47.040 um from Hunted on Duck's Place first time, you and 0:46:47.120 --> 0:46:50.640 I met was um Tyson having a bad shot on 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:53.480 a deer. And it was a shot that if you 0:46:53.560 --> 0:46:55.839 made that shot with a bow and arrow, that deer 0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:57.279 would have been healed up and pry a couple of 0:46:57.360 --> 0:47:01.680 days and gone on never never look back. Whereas it was. 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:03.560 It was a high hit in the back and the 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:06.360 meat of the back. And I remember those hair everywhere 0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:10.759 on the impact area and Steve, yeah, never a good sign. 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:13.200 And Steve went down, went after it and caught up 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:17.600 with it and finished it off. And so I think 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:19.799 if you look at that way. One of the things 0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:22.720 that came out of that that UM Naval Naval Station, 0:47:22.880 --> 0:47:25.320 Naval Weapons Station and study with the born arrow is 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.239 that they figured that the deer that were they knew 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:31.919 weren't recovered, then their wounded but not recovered was bought. 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:34.719 They figured about six percent of those went on to 0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:39.279 have normal lives and just continued on with her six 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:42.120 six percent of the deer that that that they could 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:45.080 not recover the newer hit but not recovered. And then 0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:48.080 they compared that with um the deer are hit by 0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:50.560 motor vehicles on that base, and that was more like 0:47:50.640 --> 0:47:54.160 an eleven percent. UM died whereas my six percent of 0:47:54.239 --> 0:48:00.319 the born arrow ones died or that go ahead, six, 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:05.080 I think I have gotten that reversed. I think reverse 0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:07.960 put on basically more you're more deer, more like to 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:10.920 die when they're hit by a car than they were 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:12.840 by a bow and arrow when they were all you know, 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:15.080 in the row and moving around that it was only 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:16.680 like six percent of the ones that were hit by 0:48:16.719 --> 0:48:18.839 bow and arrow died and love and percent hit by 0:48:18.880 --> 0:48:22.000 cars died. Yeah, So I think I got right now, Um, 0:48:22.400 --> 0:48:24.440 all the ones that were hit but not recovered, other 0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:27.160 ones that are still ones that were probably definitely ones 0:48:27.160 --> 0:48:30.000 that were hit not recovered and died from the wound. 0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:34.040 But that happens to you raise your hand about man, 0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:37.200 There's so many things, and it was the first one 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.719 is well, we know guns kill more. Is a more 0:48:40.760 --> 0:48:43.800 effective way of killing deer than bows are maybe not 0:48:44.160 --> 0:48:46.279 well yeah, on an individual basis, because we kill way 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:48.520 more deer in a much shorter time way, more people 0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:51.399 doing it, yeah, more more people doing it in greater range, 0:48:51.600 --> 0:48:56.160 and more shots. Uh. Well, um, I know you're right 0:48:56.200 --> 0:49:01.040 about dear um going on with arrows, and because over 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:02.600 the years I've killed at least a half a dozen 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:04.759 of the rifle that are carrying a that I've got 0:49:04.840 --> 0:49:06.759 a wound from a bow or have an arrow in 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:11.040 them or whatever. Um, And those were I guess those 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:13.080 were that. There was another point, but I don't remember 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:14.880 what it was now because you went off on another 0:49:14.960 --> 0:49:17.279 thing that that it was trailing. No. Yeah, well of 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:21.080 course it was your fault. Uh oh, I know what 0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:26.279 it was. It's interesting to me, uh the comparison. One 0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:29.320 of the things about bows and you're talking about vertical bows. 0:49:29.400 --> 0:49:32.520 I think because one of the arguments now that I'm 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:37.279 hearing against crossbows from some vertical bow people is these 0:49:37.320 --> 0:49:39.200 guys are taking shots that they shouldn't take and their 0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:42.120 wounded deer and it's sort of like the opposite argument 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:46.960 of gone you know some gone hunters um and and 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:50.359 vertical bows, you know, wounding and um and that sort 0:49:50.400 --> 0:49:53.279 of thing. So it's just it's it's just interesting how 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:55.880 all these things, to me, you know, melt together and 0:49:55.920 --> 0:49:59.120 then you make your own choices on it. And I'm 0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:03.239 that that cross bowl lingo now to say vertical bows, Yeah, 0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:08.000 it's the cross vertical sure, because in Wisconsin to keep 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:09.520 fighting about it, so they kind of find a way 0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:13.120 to distinguish the two. So they would say bows and 0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:18.920 cross bows vertical bows come on, Doug crossbow, vertical bow, 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:21.040 and and it's a it's a thing. I just feel 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:25.520 that that word came from the crossbow community. It didn't 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:27.800 come from the bow community. No, it's from a clarific 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:30.080 well yeah, I don't know whither, but it just it is. 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:34.520 It's important to clarify because otherwise, yeah, bow bow, right, 0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:37.680 but a bow versus across I mean a crossbows a bowl. 0:50:39.520 --> 0:50:44.320 Well that's that's not that yeah, podcast yeah, yeah, And 0:50:44.719 --> 0:50:46.759 the thing I think i'd say there too though in 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:50.520 the in the some Naval Weapons Station research they looked 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:53.680 at crossbows too, and it wasn't I think. I think 0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:55.759 they actually they came out a little bit better on that. 0:50:56.160 --> 0:50:57.960 And one of the more fast thing parts of that 0:50:58.040 --> 0:51:02.000 study was that the UM expandable broad has actually performed 0:51:02.200 --> 0:51:06.640 better than the standard UM injection or you know where 0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:09.600 you put your blades and like fixed blade, Well then 0:51:09.640 --> 0:51:11.799 I've totally your fixed plade because fixed blade my mind 0:51:11.880 --> 0:51:16.600 is still the ones you're sharpen yourself. Replaceabule blades, yeah, 0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:20.640 have replace full blades. I still like replaceable blades because 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:23.720 I don't like the the questioning and the worrying about, 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:25.920 well that thing open the way it's supposed to. But 0:51:26.080 --> 0:51:28.480 in the study that did in Maryland that those actually 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:31.840 came out came up better for um, more more effective overall, 0:51:31.880 --> 0:51:34.960 expandable expandables did. And I think that's one of the 0:51:35.040 --> 0:51:36.560 things that I know. That's one of the things they 0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:41.439 say about shooting the crossbow is to use an expandable blade. Yeah, 0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:43.960 and then then you get into a make sure they 0:51:43.960 --> 0:51:46.000 don't fly open when they get shot down in the 0:51:46.040 --> 0:51:48.560 bowl because it's such an explosion coming all those things 0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:51.480 compared to irregular bowl. But um, just the air resistance 0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:54.239 well if plus it's such a hard impact coming out, 0:51:55.400 --> 0:51:58.080 like those are hundred sixty five pound of you know 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:02.640 draw weights are she those those arrows out so um 0:52:03.239 --> 0:52:06.120 but see like and seeing like getting back to the 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.759 elk point of view, that's where you and I still 0:52:08.800 --> 0:52:12.120 want a greekause I think, well, I've seen guys out 0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:16.880 in the west is real flyers on elk you know, 0:52:17.280 --> 0:52:22.000 long Helvish long ways, and I think you started to 0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:24.839 change my mind. Damn with those guys. They're hitting these 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:28.080 big these these are big animals and they can God, 0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:30.080 they can take a polling and nunny and show you know. 0:52:30.640 --> 0:52:33.680 And but you know, I like the fact that, at 0:52:33.760 --> 0:52:37.080 least in our modern era of hunting, that we're talking 0:52:37.120 --> 0:52:40.520 about these things and trying to figure out what's what's ethical, 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:43.120 what's an ethical shot? And one of the things I 0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:46.040 had fun though that Deering Deering magazine back the nineties, 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:49.240 we actually did a poll on this, trying to figure 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:52.080 out from our readers, you know, what's what's um an 0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:54.719 effective range for the bow and arrow in your mind? 0:52:54.800 --> 0:52:57.239 What what's what do you feel comfortable shooting at? And 0:52:57.360 --> 0:53:00.440 the thing that was always interesting was that everyone's just 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:05.080 perfectly conscientious ethical hunter. When that deer is at less 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.399 than forty yards of the bow and arrow and less 0:53:07.440 --> 0:53:10.719 than let's say yards of the rifle, she just started 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:13.680 putting the big antlers on him, the leads in the 0:53:13.760 --> 0:53:19.320 air problem. And so I always think, well, you know, 0:53:20.520 --> 0:53:22.960 I brought a couple of quotes here that where we 0:53:23.400 --> 0:53:25.800 like to think for making progress in our our approach 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:30.520 on i'll be you know, on shot selection. And you know, 0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:33.360 Steve Steele Prian know this one who who wrote this. 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.480 It is a good rule always to try to get 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:39.360 as near the game as possible. At the same time, 0:53:39.680 --> 0:53:42.279 I am a great believer in Poulter burning, and if 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:45.600 I cannot get near, I will generally try a shot anyhow, 0:53:45.960 --> 0:53:48.320 if there's any chance the rifle curing it to it. 0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:56.320 Janny O'Connor anyone. I guess Leopold, but not Leopold. I 0:53:56.400 --> 0:53:59.560 got I got. I got that one too. That's my 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:04.279 next quote. Who would be left? I don't know, elmur Keith, 0:54:04.880 --> 0:54:11.200 Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt big believer in powder burns hot. 0:54:14.440 --> 0:54:17.759 But he was from that. He was from that well 0:54:17.920 --> 0:54:21.480 was of just getting the let out and the idea 0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:23.400 that well, if you don't shoot, you certainly won't get it. 0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:26.759 Horn Today too when you read about horn Today's expeditions, 0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:30.480 because when he's doing museum collecting still he's like he's 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:33.520 museum collecting, but they would just kind of get where 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:38.200 they're in the ballpark and everybody just starts a cracking. Yeah, 0:54:38.800 --> 0:54:41.040 there's something to be said, I think right now in 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:44.560 this conversation about the sake of being of getting close 0:54:44.600 --> 0:54:46.840 to just being a percent on your shot, not because 0:54:46.880 --> 0:54:50.120 of the ethics, but because you want to be efficient 0:54:50.239 --> 0:54:53.600 and just be a good hunter, and even though there's 0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:57.319 like say giant antlers, right, but if you're a poor hunter, 0:54:58.320 --> 0:54:59.880 that's I think when you're like, I'm gonna let him 0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:03.080 fly because this is my one opportunity. I think if 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:07.319 you've achieved a certain level of hunting prowess, you will 0:55:07.360 --> 0:55:09.760 say it is too far. Either I will get closer 0:55:09.840 --> 0:55:11.840 now so that I know a percent when I shoot, 0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:14.320 I'm gonna kill that thing, or I will let it 0:55:14.400 --> 0:55:18.200 back walk and I will return tomorrow and you know, 0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:22.000 change my position, my tactics or whatever to get closer. 0:55:22.080 --> 0:55:23.120 You know what I mean. I think, And there's a 0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:27.239 certain point where hunters, you know, don't just let lead 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:30.480 fly because you know whatever ethics out the window. Like 0:55:30.520 --> 0:55:32.080 you said, we're the only ones to think about that. 0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:34.319 If you're just trying to be like the best hunter 0:55:34.440 --> 0:55:38.120 out there, at some point you're just gonna say no 0:55:38.960 --> 0:55:41.400 to be successful, I can't shoot right now. Yeah, I 0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:45.880 think there's there's an element of ethics, there's an element 0:55:46.000 --> 0:55:52.359 of aesthetics, there's an element of pragmatism being then uh, 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:56.600 I would like, yeah, if I like to think that 0:55:56.680 --> 0:56:00.239 it bothers most people that you would cripple some umping 0:56:00.360 --> 0:56:02.040 up and not find it, so you want to be 0:56:02.120 --> 0:56:07.080 eliminating that. Um, any self respecting person right wants to 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:09.359 be good at what they do, and they put their 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:12.080 mind to something and become good at it. A strong 0:56:12.200 --> 0:56:14.120 mark or of you not being good at it is 0:56:14.200 --> 0:56:17.040 that you wound stuff and it runs off when you're 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:20.560 supposed to be killing it. And then pragmatism is like, 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:23.080 you want to get the thing. So if you're looking 0:56:23.120 --> 0:56:25.640 at man, I could take a poke at five yards 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:26.960 of my rifle. I don't know if I'll get it 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:30.480 or not. Um, I'm gonna get to where I know 0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:33.640 I'm gonna get this thing, and I know damn sure 0:56:33.840 --> 0:56:37.360 I'm gonna kill it it too. But it takes a 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:39.839 level of experience to be able to in that moment 0:56:39.960 --> 0:56:42.759 make that decision, make all those decisions. I think when 0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:46.600 people let the flyers go, when people to start blouching 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:51.520 for no reason, is when uh, they probably can't see 0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:56.360 their way through to getting closer. Maybe perhaps well another 0:56:56.480 --> 0:57:01.040 quote I wanted to share with you guys. Um, this 0:57:01.239 --> 0:57:03.759 is from but the same era a little bit later. 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:07.920 But one large white tail looked at me at seventy yards. 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:11.040 He jumped at the flesh of my bowl, my arrow 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:13.680 stuck in the ground on a second jump. If he 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:16.280 had stood still, I would have hit him in the neck. 0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:24.080 This is this is written Leopold. Yeah, seventy yards seven yards. 0:57:24.120 --> 0:57:28.000 He took a poke at a hundred yards yeah, and 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:31.680 so like that archery well see, and so that's that's 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.560 the thing I I'm not. I'm not taking cheap shots 0:57:34.600 --> 0:57:36.920 at these two guys because I think we had these 0:57:36.920 --> 0:57:38.840 discussions on all the host and I've talked about in 0:57:38.960 --> 0:57:43.280 Doug's backyard. Um, I know they're a guy. I know 0:57:43.440 --> 0:57:45.840 my my kickabilities. I know at sixty yards of bow 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:48.160 and arrow, I start falling apart. Some days I'll be 0:57:48.200 --> 0:57:50.440 out there. I can drop him in pretty nice at 0:57:50.480 --> 0:57:53.360 sixty yards. Next day I can't. So I know that's 0:57:53.400 --> 0:57:55.880 not for me a realistic range. But I do know 0:57:56.000 --> 0:57:58.640 guys who can time in and time out nail a 0:57:58.720 --> 0:58:01.240 hundred yards shots the bow and arrow. But I still 0:58:01.400 --> 0:58:04.520 will always say you're still coming on that dear to 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:07.760 be stand there and assuming if a wide open shot, 0:58:08.440 --> 0:58:11.760 well that aero arcs and like I don't know what 0:58:11.840 --> 0:58:14.840 it is on a compound bow today is shooting a 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:18.280 seventy five pounding cross compound bowl. But I do know 0:58:18.760 --> 0:58:20.920 on the cross bowl I saw it there to day, 0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:23.960 were at a hundred yards. A typical cross bowl has 0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:27.920 to arc at above the site plane to drop it 0:58:27.920 --> 0:58:30.600 into the hundred yards. Not think this guy is making 0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:32.959 a his Aultland just claims about how accurate those cross 0:58:33.000 --> 0:58:36.920 bowls are. I think, I don't know. I just have 0:58:37.040 --> 0:58:39.320 a hard time believing most guys using the cross bowl 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:42.000 can get those kind of shots to drop in there, 0:58:42.600 --> 0:58:46.480 and and and learned really quickly that's not realistic, because 0:58:46.520 --> 0:58:49.920 I think we Steve and I had a little conversation, 0:58:50.080 --> 0:58:52.360 just a quick question. I think Steve got back to 0:58:52.400 --> 0:58:54.840 me out. But I get I get fascinated with lk 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:58.800 hunting because I think I when I've been elkinning, I 0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:01.200 can see where you'd have more winning loss than what 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:03.840 I have gotten used to hunting deer from a tree 0:59:03.920 --> 0:59:06.479 stand because hunting deer from a tree standard typically getting 0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:09.480 them in their tight quarters. And I think nothing, very 0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:12.880 very few things I've ever killed go down faster than 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:16.000 I h a broad head through the lungs at twenty yards. 0:59:16.280 --> 0:59:19.360 I mean, that's just deadly effective. But I think when 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:21.520 I started elk hunting back in two thousand five. With 0:59:21.560 --> 0:59:25.960 the ball and arrow, nothing is nothing is fixed. You know, 0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:28.000 you get used that tree stand situation where you can 0:59:28.080 --> 0:59:31.800 control your shots, and control with that rena shoot all 0:59:31.800 --> 0:59:33.720 those kind of things. You can start controlling a little bit. 0:59:33.800 --> 0:59:38.200 These through discipline. Doesn't happen with all hunting. It's happening fast. 0:59:38.400 --> 0:59:41.840 You're you're on your ground, you're at eye level, wind changes, 0:59:42.040 --> 0:59:45.280 there's everything is. This is making changes fast. And I 0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:48.479 realized this is tough ship. This is a lot harder 0:59:48.520 --> 0:59:50.640 than anything I've ever done in the white tail woods. 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:54.200 That's where I start thinking. I last year I killed 0:59:54.760 --> 0:59:58.200 my first from a tree stand and I and I 0:59:58.320 --> 1:00:01.600 almost felt like cheating because it was so much easier 1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:03.920 to control that shot than that was when I was 1:00:03.960 --> 1:00:06.520 on the ground at eye level trying to pick a 1:00:06.600 --> 1:00:09.320 spot to the brush on an animal that you're waiting 1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:11.400 for the coming to a spot where you can stop 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:14.400 it quick, get the shot off. I think, what were 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:18.520 you set up on? I was on a wallow early seasons, 1:00:18.560 --> 1:00:21.040 like the fourth day of the season is Labor Day 1:00:21.080 --> 1:00:25.800 weekend National Forest. Yeah, And and that got me thinking though, 1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:29.000 that what time that bull show up? I think I 1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:32.960 shot him around six o'clock and evening, six o'clock evening 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:40.160 came in the wall. Ye, he just stood there perfectly, um, 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:42.320 not quite broadside, but he has turned a little bit, 1:00:42.360 --> 1:00:44.720 give me a perfect right down the pipe, you know. 1:00:46.560 --> 1:00:49.400 And then and then he he jumped up, went up 1:00:49.440 --> 1:00:53.040 the hill about forty yards and down was that wallow. 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:56.720 When he found that wallow wasn't muddied up, um a 1:00:56.840 --> 1:00:58.600 little bit, but was interesting. This is one of the 1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:01.360 fastest things I loved about that experience was that he 1:01:01.480 --> 1:01:03.720 never actually made to the wallow itself. He stopped me 1:01:03.760 --> 1:01:06.560 in fifteen years of pill and this little just muddy, 1:01:07.200 --> 1:01:10.280 little bitty seepage type stuff coming up, and he sat 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:12.720 through those nose right down the mud and you can 1:01:12.800 --> 1:01:16.160 just hear them sucking the water out there, a little 1:01:16.160 --> 1:01:19.520 little bitty rivulets coming down that mountain side, and it 1:01:19.600 --> 1:01:22.040 was just fastening as hell. And then he just stand 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:24.200 and look around and his face me the whole time. 1:01:24.720 --> 1:01:27.080 And finally he has turned a little bit game the open, 1:01:27.360 --> 1:01:31.040 you know, side shot and I but compared to hunting 1:01:31.080 --> 1:01:34.640 off the ground, I said, almost felt like God. And 1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:37.640 then I actually had guys, Well, yeah, here's the problem. Yeah, 1:01:37.720 --> 1:01:40.160 go ahead, there is no problem because it might have 1:01:40.280 --> 1:01:42.320 felt easy, but look at the mana. I mean, you 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:44.920 did a good bit of woodsmanship to get in the situation. 1:01:45.080 --> 1:01:49.480 Definitely went out identified an active wallow. Make no mistake, 1:01:49.640 --> 1:01:52.000 I do not feel guilty. I mean, I mean I 1:01:52.080 --> 1:01:54.720 say that, I say it felt like, oh jeez, that 1:01:54.800 --> 1:01:57.000 was so easy. But but I know, damn well it wasn't, 1:01:57.000 --> 1:01:59.560 because that was like twelve years in the making, you know, 1:02:00.160 --> 1:02:02.080 you know, to get that where I actually foster, but 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:04.840 you could actually feel confident putting a tree stand up 1:02:04.880 --> 1:02:06.520 and going to trouble putting a tree stand up on 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:10.520 this area we hunt. It's kind of I didn't didn't 1:02:10.640 --> 1:02:12.840 think about in most cases, just such a waste of time. 1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:15.320 You know, elk are so unpredictable to moving here and 1:02:15.360 --> 1:02:19.080 there and pure he found one. Oh you'll see nothing. 1:02:19.160 --> 1:02:22.040 It's like this. You know, it's possible there's no elk 1:02:22.080 --> 1:02:26.160 within two miles, yeah, three miles. And and so I 1:02:26.280 --> 1:02:28.840 just find all those kind of discussions of a shot selection, 1:02:29.440 --> 1:02:31.600 how you do set up so that kind of stuff interesting, 1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:33.400 and then I get then you get into the thing 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:36.680 you're talking about with like that that bowl walking around 1:02:36.680 --> 1:02:40.040 with the arrow wound you think, well, was he really 1:02:40.040 --> 1:02:42.280 suffering the whole time or not? I mean that thing 1:02:42.360 --> 1:02:46.919 wound heal over and how much? I mean, I can't 1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:50.240 feel good. But then you read some of the researchman's 1:02:50.240 --> 1:02:53.240 done on humans and how humans react, you know, like 1:02:53.360 --> 1:02:57.920 soldiers in battle, and there's just some really fastening research 1:02:58.000 --> 1:03:01.160 from Anzio or your dad served where they this doctor 1:03:01.280 --> 1:03:03.720 was keeping notes on these guys that were wounded, you know, 1:03:03.760 --> 1:03:05.720 how much how much pain are you in? And they 1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:11.080 found a lot cases that, um, excuse me, these guys 1:03:11.520 --> 1:03:14.640 had just awful wounds and they barely felt it because 1:03:14.920 --> 1:03:17.520 it wasn't a shock because he could talk to these guys, 1:03:17.920 --> 1:03:20.240 ask them, what are you feeling doing this kind of stuff? 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:24.240 But it was not the kind of bad pain that 1:03:24.320 --> 1:03:27.840 you'd expect. And then um, they learned too that snize 1:03:27.880 --> 1:03:30.960 guys who were mad at who just just wild with 1:03:31.200 --> 1:03:34.960 um apparent pain they could come down with with a 1:03:35.120 --> 1:03:38.800 with a drug to make them sleepy basically, and and 1:03:39.000 --> 1:03:41.280 what that's what they started to I started to think 1:03:41.640 --> 1:03:43.520 and figure out what it wasn't so much the pain 1:03:44.080 --> 1:03:47.200 that was was hard on these guys. It was the anguish, 1:03:47.360 --> 1:03:50.240 the thread that what they're like, you know, the Clint 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:53.360 Eastwood movie. Um, young forgiven. You know, a hell of 1:03:53.400 --> 1:03:55.920 a thing killing man, You're taking way all of your 1:03:55.960 --> 1:03:59.280 head and all even will have. And humans understand that, 1:03:59.840 --> 1:04:02.800 you know, they're eighteen years old, knowing that this is 1:04:02.840 --> 1:04:06.200 probably gona kill them, and they're just it has to 1:04:06.280 --> 1:04:09.760 be just devastating to them. So that's where I always 1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:12.080 trying to balance all the stuff as I'm hunting, thinking, 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:15.480 let's not let's not tire ourselves some knots over this. 1:04:16.200 --> 1:04:18.040 You know, we want to be good, ealthical hunters, but 1:04:18.120 --> 1:04:20.560 let's realize that the wilds is a tough place to 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:24.880 live and these animals suffer loss stuff that, you know, 1:04:25.520 --> 1:04:28.400 but humans due too, humans awful tough too. So I 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:30.360 don't know, I find a lot of stuff that fascinating. 1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:32.840 Pick up the tree stand thing because you later had 1:04:32.880 --> 1:04:35.360 an interaction with someone about your tree STANDLK. Yeah, so 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:37.960 I so I. One of the reasons I emailed Steve was, um, 1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:41.240 this guy um writes back to me, and he actually 1:04:41.280 --> 1:04:43.600 says to me he tried to make feel a little 1:04:43.600 --> 1:04:45.800 bit guilty about using a tree stand to kill an elk. 1:04:46.560 --> 1:04:48.680 And he says to me, well, what do you think 1:04:48.680 --> 1:04:53.920 Steve Rinella would think, and I don't know well, but 1:04:54.120 --> 1:04:57.280 but my first reaction was, well, I don't claim to 1:04:58.400 --> 1:05:01.160 know Steve as well as I know um other friends 1:05:01.160 --> 1:05:03.720 in my life. But I think Renal strikes me as 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:06.560 a practical guy that if you put your time in 1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:08.560 and you find a find a good spot and you 1:05:08.760 --> 1:05:11.760 I'll hunt it that way, go for it. Yeah, dude, 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:14.400 I'm my brother has he's got an idea of the 1:05:14.480 --> 1:05:20.400 Hunt Purity Score. Okay, So it allows like, uh, it 1:05:20.440 --> 1:05:24.280 allows you to to have many to to to factor 1:05:24.400 --> 1:05:27.600 in many different variables just to then arrive at a 1:05:27.760 --> 1:05:31.120 fixed score. And you can have twenty inputs and do 1:05:31.200 --> 1:05:34.280 a Hunt Purity score. So when I run your situation 1:05:34.400 --> 1:05:40.120 through my hunt, my personal Hunt Purity Score calculator unguided. Okay, 1:05:40.400 --> 1:05:42.280 So you're just out there, dude, out there on his own, 1:05:42.960 --> 1:05:44.960 not relying on a guide because you have a guy 1:05:45.040 --> 1:05:46.640 to like, Oh, yeah, I killed it. We bagle to 1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:50.240 bowl in and shot him. But the guy did everything 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:52.160 and he probably have shot the thing better than you 1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:55.160 did too. You were, if anything, you were a hindrance 1:05:55.200 --> 1:05:58.000 on the whole process. Right, there was a trigger man. 1:05:58.880 --> 1:06:02.479 So that's not the ace Okay, not that you can't. 1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:04.200 Still you could have a guy and still score a 1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:06.920 great hunt purity scored as you put in all the 1:06:07.040 --> 1:06:09.880 factors that go into a hunt purity score. A right, 1:06:09.920 --> 1:06:13.040 it's not it's like just one of what what's your problem? 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:15.160 Do you give me the Latvian smirk? No, I'm just 1:06:15.320 --> 1:06:18.840 enjoying this score, if there was such a thing, So 1:06:20.720 --> 1:06:24.680 and each each and each to his own right. So 1:06:24.800 --> 1:06:27.760 when I'm running Pat Durkins, when I'm when I'm giving 1:06:27.800 --> 1:06:30.560 a hunt purity score to Pat Durkins, tree stand out come. 1:06:30.640 --> 1:06:34.640 This is what I'm thinking about self guided public land, 1:06:35.520 --> 1:06:37.520 public land. Not that you can't have a great hunt 1:06:37.560 --> 1:06:40.400 purity scoring in private land. Done a lot of it myself, 1:06:41.360 --> 1:06:45.600 But in the Hunt Purity score calculator that scores high 1:06:45.920 --> 1:06:49.720 because here you are dealing with a lot of competition, 1:06:50.320 --> 1:06:52.880 things outside of your control. So it's it's like an 1:06:53.000 --> 1:06:58.960 added difficulty, right, Um, a little bit of woodsmanship. There's 1:06:58.960 --> 1:07:02.080 a lot of wabbles, I'll there. There are more wallows 1:07:02.120 --> 1:07:04.240 out there that are not going to be visited by 1:07:04.280 --> 1:07:07.640 a bull tonight than there are wallows. What the hell 1:07:07.720 --> 1:07:12.800 you've smirked about, Doug Man? I feel like you need 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.480 to keep my face down and us there are more wallows. 1:07:15.920 --> 1:07:19.040 There are more walls in the woods that what was 1:07:19.080 --> 1:07:21.920 the date he killed bull, September? September four, Okay, there 1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:25.400 are more September four. Go to the state Pat was 1:07:25.480 --> 1:07:28.000 in and go have a monitor, get a volunteer to 1:07:28.040 --> 1:07:31.959 sit on every single wallow in that state, and more 1:07:32.080 --> 1:07:34.480 than than than there's gonna be more people whose wallow 1:07:34.520 --> 1:07:37.480 doesn't get hit by an elk that night than does. Definitely, 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:39.920 So he had to pick the pick the right wallow. 1:07:39.960 --> 1:07:44.720 Here he is self guided in a place you hunted 1:07:44.720 --> 1:07:48.960 a little bit, finds a wallow, determined that this is 1:07:49.040 --> 1:07:52.360 the this is where I'm gonna stake my claim. Presumably 1:07:52.400 --> 1:07:54.440 you had to tote that tree stand through a lot 1:07:54.480 --> 1:07:58.959 of uncomfortable to areas on a hot day. So there's 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:02.840 your hunt purity score climbs up. Now you had to 1:08:02.880 --> 1:08:06.960 pick where you're gonna hang this stand factor and in wind, 1:08:07.080 --> 1:08:08.800 not just wind, but how the wind is going to 1:08:08.960 --> 1:08:14.800 change as the thermal shift, as the air starts to cool, 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:17.760 as the sun begins to set. So Pats running all 1:08:17.840 --> 1:08:21.280 this ship in his head as his hunt purity score climbs, 1:08:21.520 --> 1:08:24.680 like I just like nowhere in it. There's nowhere in 1:08:24.760 --> 1:08:27.400 it where I'm looking. I'm like, man, that's a real shrinker, 1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:32.040 a real hunt purity score shrinker. The bow and arrow 1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:36.879 gives it a higher hunt purity score, and my personal 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:40.280 estimation that gives it a higher hunt purity score than 1:08:40.320 --> 1:08:46.360 if it were versus a higher hunt when he made 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:50.920 your own arrows and napt your own heads, higher hunt 1:08:50.960 --> 1:08:53.880 purity score, many things. Going to a hut you could have. 1:08:54.160 --> 1:08:57.080 You could make your own bow, make your own string, 1:08:57.479 --> 1:09:00.080 make your own arrow shafts, nap your own head. You 1:09:00.200 --> 1:09:02.240 are you make your own hunting clothes, find a road 1:09:02.320 --> 1:09:05.040 kill turkey, make your own fletching, and still have a 1:09:05.200 --> 1:09:09.560 real low hunt purity score depending on the other inputs. 1:09:10.160 --> 1:09:12.960 So that in and of itself, right, But like the 1:09:13.080 --> 1:09:17.960 hunt you're describing to me is has is very pure. Yeah, 1:09:18.120 --> 1:09:22.320 I like the sounds of it. Thank you, so we ourselves. 1:09:22.560 --> 1:09:24.680 It was a great story to read too. I really 1:09:24.760 --> 1:09:27.639 enjoyed those those columns about it. Yeah, it was great. 1:09:27.960 --> 1:09:31.560 And and you kept your nerves because you know what, 1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:36.400 Oftentimes when something's coming in you don't get calmer, No, 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:39.920 not especially not. Sometimes it's almost beneficial to have something 1:09:40.040 --> 1:09:44.160 happened fast. And this one actually played over about five minutes. 1:09:44.680 --> 1:09:47.040 Where he came in, I thought I was gon nail 1:09:47.080 --> 1:09:49.680 him right away, and then he came in, came right 1:09:49.720 --> 1:09:53.240 too many straight on shooting turns and walks right street 1:09:53.280 --> 1:09:57.040 at me, and then I had let down twice. And 1:09:57.680 --> 1:10:00.880 it's just a fun experience. You know, everything I factor in. 1:10:01.280 --> 1:10:03.240 A lot of people probably don't, but I do. Whether 1:10:03.320 --> 1:10:05.680 it was aware of you or not, Yeah, he had 1:10:05.720 --> 1:10:08.320 no ideas there. That counts a lot in my personal 1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:13.679 hunt periody calculator set up. I'm interested about the tree 1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:16.800 stands set up relative to the wall of downhill because 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:20.320 you're playing a downhill thermal. No, you know, I I 1:10:20.439 --> 1:10:24.840 looked into everything around that figure out where where I 1:10:24.840 --> 1:10:26.599 could put up a stand and have a decent chance, 1:10:27.400 --> 1:10:29.280 and I end up having to go up a pill 1:10:29.560 --> 1:10:33.559 from that wall, and knowing that as the thermal start dropping, 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:36.160 if anything's coming down from blow, I'm not gonna have 1:10:36.240 --> 1:10:38.840 a chance. It'll just be going down. And that was 1:10:38.920 --> 1:10:42.439 my fear, is that yes, they come from down hill 1:10:42.600 --> 1:10:45.479 where I think they come from most likely, or all 1:10:45.520 --> 1:10:47.519 I could hope is be up on the sidehill more 1:10:47.960 --> 1:10:50.439 or across the way more and filter through that area. 1:10:50.840 --> 1:10:53.880 But the thing is too, I sometimes I when I'm 1:10:53.960 --> 1:10:57.519 hunting white tails too, snow situations, you can't always predict 1:10:57.560 --> 1:10:59.160 for there to come from. You think you can, but 1:10:59.240 --> 1:11:01.639 then and then case the bull came exactly from where 1:11:01.640 --> 1:11:04.080 I did not expect him. He was uphill from me, 1:11:04.160 --> 1:11:06.880 and I heard a twig snap and then he look 1:11:06.960 --> 1:11:10.080 up and here's this bull ship. There's a bull. And 1:11:10.920 --> 1:11:13.160 I haven't had book fever like that in a long time, 1:11:13.520 --> 1:11:15.519 where even though I've been el cunning a lot and 1:11:15.560 --> 1:11:17.760 had a lot of vin corners, that one that's really 1:11:17.840 --> 1:11:20.120 had me jacked up. And then by the time I 1:11:20.200 --> 1:11:23.400 got right, I could shoot. Though I was, I wasn't calm. 1:11:24.040 --> 1:11:28.560 I mean that hurts till hammering, but it was. I 1:11:28.920 --> 1:11:31.559 will always make a point like a trade show, as 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:36.280 if I see like um I've seen like Tiffany Lakowski 1:11:36.560 --> 1:11:39.960 makes some hell of hell of good shots on Dear 1:11:40.520 --> 1:11:43.200 Cariboo and elk and I walked up to me one 1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:45.320 time and I said, you know, I know you take 1:11:45.320 --> 1:11:47.360 a lot of ship from people because you know, she's 1:11:47.400 --> 1:11:51.120 a pretty young, pretty girl, blonde girl. I think sometimes 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:53.840 she um comes across dits it to some people. But 1:11:53.920 --> 1:11:56.000 you watch some of the shots that girls made on TV, 1:11:56.960 --> 1:11:59.439 and I think that girl's got some blood, some real 1:11:59.600 --> 1:12:02.920 ice veins where because I've seen guys blow those kind 1:12:02.960 --> 1:12:06.080 of shots. Yeah, And I so I respect that because 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:07.519 I think that the pull off a show like that, 1:12:07.960 --> 1:12:10.920 especially the camera over your back and along with on 1:12:11.120 --> 1:12:14.360 on you know, basically what's what's at stake here and 1:12:14.560 --> 1:12:17.240 you're on make a big investment on hunt likes that 1:12:17.360 --> 1:12:19.720 and the time involved then you pulled off. I mean 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:22.599 that's commendable. I respect that because I know I've I've 1:12:22.640 --> 1:12:25.240 blown those kind of shots. I mean who hasn't. And 1:12:25.760 --> 1:12:28.120 so anyway, so like I made that shot that night 1:12:28.479 --> 1:12:31.160 and that boll piled up, like you know, forty yards away. 1:12:31.200 --> 1:12:34.080 I watched the whole thing. Damn. I felt good. Yeah, 1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:37.240 and those kind of moments just you know, I think 1:12:38.320 --> 1:12:40.599 that's why we're out here and I'll never That's why 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:42.800 I said that. I made the comment that I um 1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:45.120 felt a little guiltycause it seems so easy. But I 1:12:45.160 --> 1:12:47.639 think it's not really guilty, just that you know, it's 1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:50.040 not really easy. You know, you know better, you know 1:12:50.160 --> 1:12:53.040 how hard to get those shots and no get those 1:12:53.040 --> 1:12:56.120 situations that work out and how many situations don't work out? 1:12:56.479 --> 1:12:59.479 Oh yeah, when you're out there just getting ground down 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:01.960 by this stuations that don't work out. When something does 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:03.559 work really good, it's almost like you feel like you've 1:13:03.560 --> 1:13:07.000 stepped into like you walked into a hallucination, that you're 1:13:07.040 --> 1:13:11.000 hallucinating that it worked. It's that surprising you, Like I 1:13:11.080 --> 1:13:12.960 actually just got close to that elk and ran an 1:13:13.040 --> 1:13:15.760 arrow through its lungs and it fell over dead. It's 1:13:15.840 --> 1:13:21.800 more plausible that I'm hallucinating right now than that just happened. Um, 1:13:22.880 --> 1:13:24.479 we've been talking about thermals. I want to explain it 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:26.000 because I feel like some people might not get we're 1:13:26.040 --> 1:13:31.080 talking about so when you're thribles happen when you're in it. 1:13:31.200 --> 1:13:33.880 I mean you can, you can have thermals without topography, 1:13:34.080 --> 1:13:38.280 but I think you kind of bank on and in 1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:43.320 mountainous country is that you know, warm air rises. So 1:13:43.640 --> 1:13:46.720 I'm not telling you this, pound just telling Joe blow out. There. 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:51.200 Warm air rises. So in the morning, when the sun 1:13:51.280 --> 1:13:53.320 starts to come up and the day starts to heat up, 1:13:53.840 --> 1:13:58.800 you're generally gonna wind up having uphill winds. And then 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:03.040 in the evening, the sunsets and the air cools you're 1:14:03.040 --> 1:14:06.840 gonna have, you know, it's gonna switch. Sometimes we will 1:14:06.880 --> 1:14:09.479 get set up where we're gonna do a stock on 1:14:09.600 --> 1:14:13.200 an animal, and you'll just sit around and wait, depending 1:14:13.200 --> 1:14:16.479 on where it is and the best approach, you'll sit 1:14:16.560 --> 1:14:20.200 around and wait for when the thermal shift, because you'll 1:14:20.280 --> 1:14:23.479 know that at some point today. I know that like 1:14:23.760 --> 1:14:26.640 at whatever time, you know, whatever time it happened the 1:14:26.680 --> 1:14:29.600 night before or whenever the evening sets on, that the 1:14:29.640 --> 1:14:32.800 wind's gonna shift, possibly to the point that it overrides 1:14:32.960 --> 1:14:36.400 the normal predominant wind direction. But sometimes you just have 1:14:36.560 --> 1:14:38.840 like so much wind, if there's a weather pattern moving 1:14:38.920 --> 1:14:42.000 through or whatever, you can have so much wind that 1:14:43.240 --> 1:14:46.519 that sort of natural wind, not natural less with the 1:14:46.640 --> 1:14:48.840 right word for it, but just that that general wind 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:53.400 direction conspires with the thermals to just make swirling air, 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:57.160 which is very frustrating when it's not up or down. 1:14:57.320 --> 1:15:00.839 It's just everywhere we live and die had by the thermals. 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:03.719 When I got it in Colorado and a particular spot 1:15:03.800 --> 1:15:06.320 which was kind of a good example of the morning 1:15:06.400 --> 1:15:09.639 hunt because in the morning to usually have a downhill thermal, 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:11.400 you know, just because it's like, you know, it's like 1:15:11.439 --> 1:15:15.800 the coldest rite at sunrise or whatever, thirty minutes before sunrise, 1:15:16.040 --> 1:15:18.000 it's you know, the coldest part maybe, So you got 1:15:18.040 --> 1:15:20.600 that downhill thermal. But we had this knob that you 1:15:20.640 --> 1:15:23.360 could kind of sit on, and it was I don't know, 1:15:23.360 --> 1:15:25.400 at least a thousand feet down to this hay field, 1:15:25.439 --> 1:15:27.040 and these elk would be out in this hay field, 1:15:27.080 --> 1:15:28.840 you know, and we actually couldn't hunt out there, so 1:15:28.920 --> 1:15:30.600 which is one of the reasons we hadn't just you know, 1:15:31.040 --> 1:15:33.800 gone and ambushed him down there. But they would be 1:15:33.880 --> 1:15:36.439 coming towards us, you know, as it got light and 1:15:36.520 --> 1:15:39.080 coming up onto that hill. But thermals like right at 1:15:39.120 --> 1:15:41.519 your back, so you have to sit there and wait 1:15:41.680 --> 1:15:43.920 and wait and wait and wait and wait, and they'd 1:15:43.960 --> 1:15:46.599 be screaming and ripping, and you're just like sitting there 1:15:46.640 --> 1:15:48.720 with your puffer just watching it, watching it and just 1:15:48.840 --> 1:15:51.719 hoping for the day to warm up before they quit muglin. 1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:54.639 And so many times, I mean you'd wait sometimes still 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:56.519 eight thirty nine, I mean, even sitting up there for 1:15:56.640 --> 1:15:59.360 two plus hours, and then finally you just like you 1:15:59.400 --> 1:16:02.840 start feeling that constant you know, uphill thermal, and we 1:16:02.880 --> 1:16:05.720 would just bail off that hill, you know, trying not 1:16:05.840 --> 1:16:08.000 to break a leg as we ran down in there, 1:16:08.640 --> 1:16:11.719 you know, and then we'll start calling. But you mentioned 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:14.160 that some place that have so much wind that when 1:16:14.200 --> 1:16:16.280 I went to the guy in North Park for a year, 1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:19.559 it's just a windy part of Colorado, like up there 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:23.599 by Walden. And I remember like halfway through the elk 1:16:23.680 --> 1:16:26.920 season being like, I seriously haven't used my wind chapter 1:16:27.080 --> 1:16:29.960 or thought about a thermal for a month because it 1:16:30.080 --> 1:16:31.840 was just constant, like every day You're just like, oh, 1:16:31.880 --> 1:16:33.920 the winds out of the east. It's gonna be out 1:16:33.920 --> 1:16:36.479 of the east all day. You know. We never thought 1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:40.600 about thermal's there. I'll tell another good thermal's trick is 1:16:41.280 --> 1:16:44.320 a creek. Well, you know, a creek one of the 1:16:44.439 --> 1:16:47.680 daytime cool the air above it, and you could have 1:16:47.840 --> 1:16:50.719 a wind direction going some direction or another. You dropped 1:16:50.760 --> 1:16:53.080 down into a creek bed and you'll find that it's 1:16:53.080 --> 1:16:57.160 a down wind that there's a strong down wind current 1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:02.800 created by that water. And you can creep up creek 1:17:02.840 --> 1:17:05.280 beds or streams that are flowing and be the whole 1:17:05.320 --> 1:17:08.519 time in nose hitting you like wind hitting you in 1:17:08.560 --> 1:17:10.960 the face as you go upstream, even though the wind 1:17:11.040 --> 1:17:13.679 is different, hunted yards up the hill. I was once 1:17:13.760 --> 1:17:16.479 creeping up a creek on the north side of it 1:17:16.800 --> 1:17:20.920 in the timber, probably a foot to eighteen inches of snow, 1:17:21.240 --> 1:17:24.800 powdery snow salent as convening. I'm probably fifty yards above 1:17:24.840 --> 1:17:27.280 the bottom of the creek and we're trying to catch 1:17:27.360 --> 1:17:29.240 up these elk there feeding in the quakies on the 1:17:29.320 --> 1:17:33.000 south facing slope, pretty narrow canyon, and we're working our 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:34.800 way up and we get to the elk. We get 1:17:34.840 --> 1:17:38.040 all the way so we're exactly um, you know, parallel 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:40.800 to them, and I'm feeling the wind and got just 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:43.640 a nice downhill thermal and we're just like there's no 1:17:43.760 --> 1:17:45.880 clear shots, but just like twenty cows uf there and 1:17:45.920 --> 1:17:48.080 we're just waiting for a good shot. And all of 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:50.080 a sudden, I see a couple of noses pop up, 1:17:50.160 --> 1:17:53.200 you know. I'm like, what, there's no way, you know. 1:17:53.360 --> 1:17:55.320 I'm like, it is like we're freezing here. I can 1:17:55.360 --> 1:17:58.360 just feel it going down towards the creek, and eventually 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:01.000 they bust. Three years later, but I think we killed 1:18:01.000 --> 1:18:03.280 a cow. But I think what actually happen is that 1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:05.960 the third will came down, pushed our scent to the 1:18:06.040 --> 1:18:09.000 creek bottom, and then instead of just keeping flowing down 1:18:09.040 --> 1:18:12.160 the creek, it must have just gotten onto that warm 1:18:12.240 --> 1:18:14.400 hillside and the sun was hitting the south face, and 1:18:15.400 --> 1:18:19.800 and it carried it up right to him. I mean, yeah, 1:18:19.920 --> 1:18:22.760 you will sometimes have stuff with you or you just 1:18:23.080 --> 1:18:28.880 can't understand how it with you, and it's yeah, stuff 1:18:28.920 --> 1:18:33.479 like that probably and even argues, well, I'll be like 1:18:33.520 --> 1:18:41.240 who moved? Who moved? Someone moved the spot I still 1:18:41.320 --> 1:18:43.880 have done were like Bob full Cross, you student demonstrations 1:18:43.920 --> 1:18:46.479 with with air currents where you use a smoke bomb 1:18:46.880 --> 1:18:50.360 and you know to shoal when you think it's going 1:18:50.439 --> 1:18:52.080 this way, like, well it goes that way for a while, 1:18:52.120 --> 1:18:57.880 and then it just churched, moving moving off again. Hard 1:18:58.000 --> 1:19:00.760 hard to play that stuff. Pet, tell me why the 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:04.360 old time traditional deer camps are disappearing. That's been one 1:19:04.439 --> 1:19:08.639 that I've you know, being the settlement of sap I am. 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:12.640 I always think that's how how deer hunting should be. 1:19:12.720 --> 1:19:15.240 Were you pulling into a camp for basically the whole 1:19:15.320 --> 1:19:17.200 nine day season like they used to do. You know 1:19:17.240 --> 1:19:20.720 in Wisconsin used to take trains up north and what's 1:19:20.760 --> 1:19:24.400 happened is that, um, we made travel. I think a 1:19:24.520 --> 1:19:26.560 big factors. There's many factors, of course, but one of 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:30.080 the big factors is that travel is so convenient. You 1:19:30.120 --> 1:19:32.599 can now hop in your car anywhere in Wisconsin, basically 1:19:32.760 --> 1:19:35.320 up north in five hours, and then you can be 1:19:35.439 --> 1:19:39.000 back home Sunday evening really easily. It's not not a 1:19:39.080 --> 1:19:41.800 big trip anymore. Even when I was a kid in 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:46.000 the seventies going deer hunting, Wohane highways going north and 1:19:46.040 --> 1:19:49.200 Wisconsin we're all two lane highways, and so the trip 1:19:49.280 --> 1:19:51.760 up north was it was kind of endurance thing. You 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:53.920 just kind of staying right along and those two lane highways, 1:19:53.960 --> 1:19:56.599 waiting to pass people all time, and just so when 1:19:56.640 --> 1:19:58.800 you got up there, you're in no hurry to come back. 1:19:58.920 --> 1:20:01.360 You want to stay up there. And you think, well, 1:20:01.400 --> 1:20:03.000 if that's how it was in the seventies, can you 1:20:03.040 --> 1:20:04.439 imagine what it was like back in the fourties and 1:20:04.560 --> 1:20:06.920 fifties where guys would have to drive up there and 1:20:07.000 --> 1:20:08.560 not always be able to even get down in the 1:20:08.680 --> 1:20:10.599 road to their camp. You know, they had to get 1:20:10.680 --> 1:20:12.479 neighbor to get a tractor and take them down and 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:14.720 haul them in. And so I think that's a big 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:17.080 factor that you know, in our our society we have 1:20:17.200 --> 1:20:21.200 now with a great transportation, really reliable vehicles, people just 1:20:21.320 --> 1:20:23.320 don't have to go and spend that kind of time 1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:26.120 in the camp. And then you have the other factors 1:20:26.200 --> 1:20:28.960 going on in recent decades, is that, well, the old 1:20:29.040 --> 1:20:32.439 guys um it was worth going up north in northern Wisconsin, 1:20:32.560 --> 1:20:36.400 othern Michigan and in the Minnesota because uh, there's a 1:20:36.439 --> 1:20:38.760 good deer hunting. It was gotten tougher. You know, the 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:42.880 forest matured, and we have always factors like that. We're 1:20:43.000 --> 1:20:45.920 you know that things made dear. And then we'll look 1:20:45.960 --> 1:20:49.880 at the case of our very own dog, Dere exactly, Doug, 1:20:50.040 --> 1:20:52.720 when when when correct me? If I'm wrong, Doug, you 1:20:52.960 --> 1:20:57.920 certainly will. Dog was a boy, his old man went 1:20:58.000 --> 1:21:01.760 to northern deer camp. That's right around the farm. If 1:21:01.840 --> 1:21:04.120 you saw a deer, you talked about it. That's right, 1:21:05.240 --> 1:21:07.559 You're like, holy ship, we saw a deer, and everyone 1:21:07.640 --> 1:21:11.280 for deer season drove up. Now you got how many 1:21:11.320 --> 1:21:15.959 deer for square whatever more than for square mile of habitat, 1:21:16.360 --> 1:21:19.120 and how and what's the what's the what's the stocking 1:21:19.320 --> 1:21:22.840 or the ratio of deer per unit of land in 1:21:22.880 --> 1:21:26.439 the north was much lower. Yeah, I mean, so the 1:21:26.520 --> 1:21:28.880 deer came to you. You don't need to go to 1:21:28.920 --> 1:21:32.680 the deer. I'm a deer magnet. Lost to me. You 1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:34.800 guys were done at Dougs in two thousand and fifteen. 1:21:34.840 --> 1:21:38.200 I think it was right gun season. Um. I killed 1:21:38.200 --> 1:21:40.160 a nice buck that year, done about ten miles from 1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:43.040 Doug's place and my uncle's farm. And the only reason 1:21:43.080 --> 1:21:45.640 I'm telling that is because when I drove over to 1:21:45.680 --> 1:21:48.479 the text or to get get um that the lymphing 1:21:48.640 --> 1:21:52.679 was taken out for the CWD testing, I missed the turn, 1:21:52.800 --> 1:21:55.280 couldn't find the place, and I stopped a hunter on 1:21:55.360 --> 1:21:57.599 the road who was just getting ready to walk down 1:21:57.640 --> 1:22:01.040 into this field. I got talking to him. Well, he's 1:22:01.080 --> 1:22:04.200 from Hayward, Wisconsin, which is way up north. And the 1:22:04.280 --> 1:22:07.720 reason he's done in Doug's backyard basically because the deer 1:22:07.800 --> 1:22:12.360 hunting up in Hayward sucks all the way. Yeah, that 1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:15.680 the hunt of public piece of property over in the 1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:19.519 Bear Valley. Uh. And and then that's what's happened, you know, 1:22:19.720 --> 1:22:24.160 between that switching the habitat where the habitat don install 1:22:24.200 --> 1:22:26.880 in Wisconsin favors a deer more than up north, and 1:22:27.200 --> 1:22:29.920 you have it's it's you know, the guys you still 1:22:30.040 --> 1:22:32.640 hunt up there, they typically aren't going in for um 1:22:33.000 --> 1:22:35.479 five days. Thanksgiving used to be a real thing where 1:22:35.479 --> 1:22:37.960 you'd go up there and you arrive our Friday before 1:22:37.960 --> 1:22:40.439 a gun season, set up camp and you won't come 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:43.280 back till the following weekend or Sunday night. And people 1:22:43.320 --> 1:22:46.160 are logging the north with much much more logging, much 1:22:46.200 --> 1:22:49.519 more logging back then. Now the logging isn't isn't keeping 1:22:49.640 --> 1:22:52.280 up with the forest maturations. So the forests keep getting 1:22:52.320 --> 1:22:55.200 older and older and older, and leus deer habitat and 1:22:55.760 --> 1:23:00.320 and so I've never surprised all those things. Actor And 1:23:00.400 --> 1:23:04.160 if there was good dear, if deer thriving grows easy thriving, 1:23:04.320 --> 1:23:06.439 you know, and those areas are just tough for now. 1:23:07.120 --> 1:23:09.760 So I think those those two factors that can probably 1:23:09.760 --> 1:23:12.120 the biggest reasons. And plus I think there's just a 1:23:12.200 --> 1:23:15.360 lot of people just don't like having um a far 1:23:15.439 --> 1:23:17.960 away camp to take care of you. There's a lot 1:23:18.000 --> 1:23:19.960 of maintenance on on any kind of building once you 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:25.040 once you put up building on a land three miles away. Yeah, 1:23:25.040 --> 1:23:26.560 I've pat there a lot taking care of it, and 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:29.240 people I think, people like my generation, at least me, 1:23:29.640 --> 1:23:31.599 I don't care to take be taking care of stuff 1:23:31.640 --> 1:23:34.360 all time. I just you know, show up someplace and 1:23:35.320 --> 1:23:37.360 I sleep all that I know to sleep on the 1:23:37.400 --> 1:23:40.200 back of my truck, then maintain a shack year round, 1:23:40.479 --> 1:23:43.840 you know. For deer hunting. That's this way I am well. 1:23:43.880 --> 1:23:46.479 And hunting has changed too, I mean, you know the 1:23:46.920 --> 1:23:50.599 increase in bow hunting and um, you know up north, 1:23:50.680 --> 1:23:54.200 down by us whatever, and there's a I mean there's 1:23:54.200 --> 1:23:57.800 always that talk about the loss of um more of 1:23:57.920 --> 1:24:01.120 loss of deer hunters, fewer deer licenses being sold, but yeah, 1:24:01.200 --> 1:24:03.920 there's an increase in bowl licenses. So it's just changing 1:24:04.680 --> 1:24:06.960 and the style of hunting is changing, and yeah, there's 1:24:06.960 --> 1:24:08.920 no you don't do the community deer drives like we 1:24:09.000 --> 1:24:10.200 used to do, and that used to be a big 1:24:10.240 --> 1:24:13.040 thing up north. Used to drive along those those rural 1:24:13.520 --> 1:24:15.800 roads in Building Wisconsin seed lines of people lined up 1:24:15.840 --> 1:24:17.960 waiting to go in and do a big push. And 1:24:18.120 --> 1:24:19.920 just you know, we just don't hunt that way much anymore. 1:24:21.400 --> 1:24:23.720 But you lament it, oh, I do, just because I 1:24:24.160 --> 1:24:27.360 I think there was a cool time and I um, 1:24:27.560 --> 1:24:31.040 I still do a series um going out in was 1:24:31.080 --> 1:24:33.080 ten years now, where I travel around the different parts 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:36.160 of the country and visit deer camps because I think 1:24:36.600 --> 1:24:39.000 I'd like to document while it's still around. You know, 1:24:39.160 --> 1:24:42.840 it's the Wisconsin to the Minnesota, go down Salt, visit 1:24:42.880 --> 1:24:44.760 some third deer camps, because even down there is not 1:24:44.960 --> 1:24:47.639 not that easy to maintain those traditions for a long 1:24:47.840 --> 1:24:49.800 for a long time, you know, you know, to go 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:54.080 generation after generation and maintain the hunting interest. I excuse 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:56.240 my my own family as an example. I think, well, 1:24:56.320 --> 1:24:59.200 my dad hunted a little bit just to get me going, 1:24:59.800 --> 1:25:02.120 but he dropped off. You know, by the time I 1:25:02.280 --> 1:25:04.880 was coming along where he was, he wasn't active hunting anymore. 1:25:05.120 --> 1:25:07.360 But out of my four brothers, but me and my 1:25:07.479 --> 1:25:10.120 three brothers, I'm the only one that hunts. And I 1:25:10.200 --> 1:25:12.840 think a lot of people in our generation just don't 1:25:12.880 --> 1:25:14.519 don't have the interest and that I look at our 1:25:15.240 --> 1:25:18.280 hunter demographics and that's not looking all that great for 1:25:18.320 --> 1:25:21.320 the future. So you think that's a part of Americana 1:25:21.439 --> 1:25:24.080 that's kind of slipping away on us in some areas. 1:25:24.080 --> 1:25:26.720 And some areas, yeah, and I think like in the 1:25:27.360 --> 1:25:30.120 you know, in the Midwest, the old idea that you 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:34.160 had these sort of unsettled wild lands in the north, 1:25:34.360 --> 1:25:36.560 like we grew up. It's just like a thing you 1:25:36.680 --> 1:25:40.360 heard all the time up north, up north, like everyone 1:25:41.479 --> 1:25:46.000 went Like in Michigan, you didn't do any cross movement. 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:49.640 You didn't know like east west movement. All movement was 1:25:50.000 --> 1:25:54.400 was north south. He's like, drove that direction. If you 1:25:54.439 --> 1:25:56.639 wanted to get into something, you drove north. You wanted 1:25:56.680 --> 1:25:59.000 to get into something good, you drove south. To get 1:25:59.040 --> 1:26:02.640 back home, eyes were always to the north. And the 1:26:02.720 --> 1:26:06.000 first time when I left home, I went north whatever 1:26:06.200 --> 1:26:11.479 hundred miles, hundreds of miles and set up shop up there. Uh. 1:26:12.120 --> 1:26:18.400 One last question for you, you uh we're putting to me, 1:26:19.280 --> 1:26:22.559 is it is it socially acceptable, morally acceptable to schedule 1:26:23.479 --> 1:26:29.200 wedding on opening weekend of deer season. Yeah. And and 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:33.519 my take being a being the Wisconsin chauvinist I am, 1:26:34.240 --> 1:26:39.599 and knowing that Wisconsin deer hunting the deer season, everyone knows. 1:26:40.360 --> 1:26:43.240 Everyone knows when deer season in Wisconsin. And if you 1:26:43.280 --> 1:26:46.400 don't know, you're really really I have to wonder about 1:26:46.560 --> 1:26:49.040 how can you not be learned? Yeah, this is a 1:26:49.240 --> 1:26:51.000 this is a big thing in Wisconsin, you cannot miss 1:26:51.080 --> 1:26:54.880 all the blaze orange going usually north, even though you 1:26:54.960 --> 1:26:57.519 know people going to eastern West too, but there's you 1:26:57.560 --> 1:26:59.880 cannot you cannot miss all the blaze orange and the 1:27:00.040 --> 1:27:03.479 role before our gun season opens. And then think just 1:27:03.680 --> 1:27:06.519 at work, how many people get around and work we're 1:27:06.520 --> 1:27:09.919 talking about deer hunting. Husband's going deer hunting, girl girlfriends 1:27:09.960 --> 1:27:12.240 going with their boyfriends, that kind of stuff. And so 1:27:12.360 --> 1:27:15.280 I think, when you know this is this, this is 1:27:15.439 --> 1:27:18.160 a once of your event. Pretty much most people have 1:27:18.920 --> 1:27:23.320 in Wisconsin. Wade my my my friend Tom Herberline always 1:27:23.360 --> 1:27:26.080 had the comment and his research on um hunters in 1:27:26.120 --> 1:27:30.439 Wisconsin that in Wisconsin you're either either are a deer 1:27:30.520 --> 1:27:33.640 hunter or sleeping with a deer hunter because in he 1:27:33.880 --> 1:27:36.400 mean just in one bad be throughout the household, there's 1:27:36.479 --> 1:27:38.960 there's always someone in the house who hunts. So I think, 1:27:39.200 --> 1:27:41.400 having all that of wearing a stuff deer hunting, especially 1:27:41.400 --> 1:27:44.680 a gun season, how can you possibly justify having a 1:27:45.160 --> 1:27:48.080 wedding opening week in a gun season. You know, you 1:27:48.080 --> 1:27:50.680 can affect the lives a lot of people who are 1:27:50.960 --> 1:27:54.280 either going to skip your wedding or or really really 1:27:54.360 --> 1:27:57.080 resentful that you dragged them out of the woods for 1:27:57.200 --> 1:27:59.240 your wedding. That you could have scheduled that fifty one 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:02.960 other weekend? Why why why would you do that? And 1:28:04.080 --> 1:28:06.439 there's there's a reason I got married in mid July. Yeah, 1:28:06.680 --> 1:28:10.920 well I think that's I think personally, that's respectful other 1:28:11.040 --> 1:28:14.800 people's time. And I haven't screwed up. I haven't yet 1:28:14.920 --> 1:28:21.040 screwed up majorly. On children's birthdates. I got one May 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:26.400 nine in there. That is difficult. It's difficult, but none 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:31.400 of them were uh by by planning that one. We 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:33.599 were pretty much planning out And I'm like, at least 1:28:33.640 --> 1:28:35.640 it wasn't the fault. I got a May nine in 1:28:35.720 --> 1:28:38.160 in there, and his mother likes him to be around 1:28:38.240 --> 1:28:41.320 home on his birthday. His mother doesn't want to be 1:28:41.400 --> 1:28:46.880 off doing whatever. Um, I want to be there. It's 1:28:46.920 --> 1:28:50.280 just it's that that wasn't great. It wasn't great, but 1:28:50.360 --> 1:28:52.760 it wasn't horrible. There might come a time though, where 1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:54.880 he gets to make that decision to say, you know what, 1:28:55.000 --> 1:28:58.120 I'd really like to be out at Uncle Doug's turkey 1:28:58.200 --> 1:29:01.559 hunt on my birthday. Let's we got the conversation this year, 1:29:01.640 --> 1:29:05.120 we're gonna go turkey hunt. But it's like in my 1:29:05.439 --> 1:29:09.000 family didn't come for me and my family and the 1:29:09.080 --> 1:29:11.560 powers that be within that family. There seems to be 1:29:11.680 --> 1:29:15.920 this thing where everyone's all together on birthdays. Yeah, so 1:29:16.040 --> 1:29:20.040 it's like the calendar starts to get really crowded. Hold 1:29:20.080 --> 1:29:22.639 your thought, Dug. The calendar starts to get really crowded 1:29:22.680 --> 1:29:24.840 when you have like I do. I have three kids, 1:29:24.880 --> 1:29:26.960 So there's three days. You only got three sixty five 1:29:27.000 --> 1:29:29.320 days out of year. There's three of them. You get 1:29:29.360 --> 1:29:35.080 a uh spouse birthday and the anniversary, handful of religious holidays. 1:29:35.960 --> 1:29:37.400 It's like, if I could do it all over again, 1:29:37.439 --> 1:29:42.519 I just gotten married on Christmas and then married a 1:29:42.560 --> 1:29:45.320 girl who was born on Find a girl. Yeah, find 1:29:45.360 --> 1:29:48.879 a girl's like birthdays around Christmas, get married on Christmas, 1:29:49.000 --> 1:29:54.120 and then try to impregnate her routinely in nine months 1:29:54.840 --> 1:29:59.240 for Christmas, Doug, you have a family story about this. 1:29:59.520 --> 1:30:02.439 I have three things that come to mind about one. 1:30:02.560 --> 1:30:05.360 My uncle, Ralph Zelinski, who was one of my dad's 1:30:05.560 --> 1:30:07.920 hunting buddies up north when he used to go up north. 1:30:08.000 --> 1:30:12.160 And the guy who I first heard the word mooching from, 1:30:13.439 --> 1:30:17.960 got married on Opening weekend. My dad never forgave him. 1:30:18.760 --> 1:30:21.400 Ralph is now ninety three years old. My dad's dad. 1:30:22.280 --> 1:30:26.040 My dad went with grave still piste off about that. Uh, 1:30:27.040 --> 1:30:29.360 why why did you get married an opening weekend? I 1:30:29.479 --> 1:30:32.680 think it was a power thing with I shouldn't say 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:35.080 because they're both still alive and they might listen to this. 1:30:35.360 --> 1:30:37.280 I don't know. I don't know why. What the hell? 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:39.160 That's all my dad's What the hell's the matter with him? 1:30:39.200 --> 1:30:44.280 That's all my dad said. Uh. Last year, my nephew, Sam, 1:30:44.360 --> 1:30:47.840 who you all know has and I'm happy to say 1:30:47.920 --> 1:30:52.280 his name, uh, had a new girlfriend. They've been going 1:30:52.320 --> 1:30:55.559 out for about three or four months, and he calls 1:30:55.640 --> 1:30:59.840 me up about three weeks before opening weekend. He goes, hey, uncle, 1:31:01.479 --> 1:31:04.200 so I'm not gonna be there opening weekend, and I 1:31:04.240 --> 1:31:07.960 said why not? He goes, well, Carra's family has a 1:31:08.160 --> 1:31:11.439 wedding Countain, New Jersey, and I said I'd go along. 1:31:11.479 --> 1:31:13.280 And I didn't realize it was opening weekend. But now 1:31:13.320 --> 1:31:16.280 I committed to that's so I gotta go. I said, kid, 1:31:16.360 --> 1:31:19.240 there's two things wrong with that. The first one is 1:31:20.120 --> 1:31:23.760 chances are a year from now she's not gonna be 1:31:23.800 --> 1:31:26.599 your girlfriend. So you just gave up an opening weekend 1:31:26.640 --> 1:31:30.800 for somebody you're not you're no longer with or you 1:31:30.920 --> 1:31:35.960 are still together. You get married, and you said all. Uh, 1:31:36.800 --> 1:31:40.960 I've seen a lot of guys really screw themselves in 1:31:41.040 --> 1:31:46.240 the in the courtship phase by giving up liberties that 1:31:46.280 --> 1:31:50.720 they think they're gonna somehow get back later. You need to. 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:54.080 I tell people, I don't care if you need to 1:31:54.160 --> 1:31:57.880 drive down the road and sleep in a car act 1:31:57.960 --> 1:32:02.719 like you have shipped to do when he started dating someone, 1:32:04.120 --> 1:32:07.160 just to set the scene. Yeah, but you haven't told 1:32:07.200 --> 1:32:11.639 the story I wanted to tell, which one was at about, 1:32:11.760 --> 1:32:15.840 didn't your old man? Oh? Oh, my brother, So my 1:32:15.960 --> 1:32:20.800 mom's my mom is pregnant and the do date. And 1:32:21.120 --> 1:32:22.600 there wasn't a whole lot of planning from what I 1:32:22.640 --> 1:32:28.800 could tell when when we were conceived. Uh, And my 1:32:29.320 --> 1:32:31.280 my dad was just a you know, I loved going 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:33.600 up north and deer hunting. And as it happened, my 1:32:33.760 --> 1:32:37.519 brother is do like right at the end of you know, 1:32:37.640 --> 1:32:41.240 that third week in November, and my father started telling 1:32:41.280 --> 1:32:46.560 my mom there had that kid November two. He was 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:55.920 born November second, two weeks later, Dad's going north. One 1:32:55.960 --> 1:32:58.400 of my old newspaper buddies back in there. This is 1:32:58.400 --> 1:33:02.320 the early eighties, paying and I started our family. Our firstborn, 1:33:02.560 --> 1:33:06.600 Leah was born in January of and so she she 1:33:07.000 --> 1:33:09.439 we we planned it, you know, we made sure that 1:33:10.160 --> 1:33:11.960 we didn't stir at all this stuff until we could, 1:33:12.040 --> 1:33:14.240 you know, and penning up pregnant right away. So it 1:33:14.360 --> 1:33:18.040 was January for Leah. Ellie came along in July. The 1:33:18.120 --> 1:33:20.679 only one became close to missing on was Carson, our 1:33:20.840 --> 1:33:24.560 our youngest, and she was born right before she was 1:33:24.600 --> 1:33:27.240 born September twelve. And this and this is before I 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:30.320 was like this, before I was elk hunting, and so 1:33:30.479 --> 1:33:33.400 this is still you're still Eastern White was still Eastern 1:33:33.439 --> 1:33:39.200 whitetail hunting a great I thought we stood in the 1:33:39.280 --> 1:33:40.800 home on that one. You know, it just really it 1:33:40.880 --> 1:33:44.240 was close. But um, I was telling some guys that 1:33:44.320 --> 1:33:47.120 worked out, you know, they something about um. I can't 1:33:47.120 --> 1:33:48.519 rememb how we got talking about because none of these 1:33:48.560 --> 1:33:50.760 guys were hunters. But when I mentioned the fact that 1:33:50.840 --> 1:33:53.400 Penny and I planned, and she wasn't like it wasn't 1:33:53.400 --> 1:33:55.160 like I was holding a gun to her head. We 1:33:55.320 --> 1:33:57.560 just talked about in practical terms, when you want his 1:33:57.680 --> 1:34:00.439 kids to arrive and when we kind of for my 1:34:00.560 --> 1:34:03.040 schedule it worked out birthday. If I'm if you want 1:34:03.080 --> 1:34:05.240 me home to help with the kids, it's better if 1:34:05.320 --> 1:34:08.360 it's outside of hunt when the calendar and some lovemaking. 1:34:09.960 --> 1:34:12.840 So if that's one guy saying, people like you make 1:34:12.960 --> 1:34:16.840 me ashamed of the male species amount god, I couldn't 1:34:16.840 --> 1:34:20.120 be prouder of you. And I thought, well, hey, if 1:34:20.880 --> 1:34:23.720 if my wife understands it all matters to me, don't 1:34:23.760 --> 1:34:26.080 give a ship with this. But I thought, no, I 1:34:26.400 --> 1:34:28.000 I know I missed the mark a little bit on 1:34:28.080 --> 1:34:31.080 a May niner because of spring bear and Turkey. But 1:34:31.840 --> 1:34:34.439 when you factor in, I also got a mid December, 1:34:34.720 --> 1:34:40.759 and I got a late January. So and the late January, 1:34:40.840 --> 1:34:44.439 which is the best one I got, was accidental. So 1:34:44.560 --> 1:34:48.160 it's like, even when I'm making mistakes, even when I'm 1:34:48.200 --> 1:34:52.200 making mistakes, I'm hitting the right. What do you got? 1:34:52.280 --> 1:34:57.040 Y uh? I'm not really throwing him under the bus. 1:34:57.320 --> 1:35:01.160 But I missed are now good friend Brodie's wedding because 1:35:01.240 --> 1:35:03.840 it was a September wedding. I can't remember exactly when, 1:35:04.000 --> 1:35:06.360 but my wife had to go with a friend of mine. 1:35:08.080 --> 1:35:13.480 You sent your wife to your buddy. It was September, 1:35:13.680 --> 1:35:17.519 and Broody understood I suppose Yeah, yeah, what the hell 1:35:17.600 --> 1:35:19.439 was Brody getting married then? For? I don't you know, 1:35:19.600 --> 1:35:22.080 I wish I didn't like, Yeah, I don't, I don't know. 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:27.160 I'm I'm assuming Brodie's listening. No, but what are your 1:35:28.040 --> 1:35:31.720 for for? For throwing offspring? What'd you hit? Oh? Um? 1:35:32.000 --> 1:35:36.960 August uh seventh, December five? So yeah, but perfect good 1:35:37.000 --> 1:35:46.639 shooting de Yeah, just one right in the perfect spot. Yeah. 1:35:47.160 --> 1:35:51.760 I can't say that that was planned. That was dumb luck. 1:35:52.800 --> 1:35:55.760 But you started to realize that the odds are it's 1:35:55.760 --> 1:36:00.280 gonna be okay because there's more months when it's okay 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:01.680 to have a kid then there are when it's not 1:36:01.760 --> 1:36:06.160 okay to have a kid. Yes, it's playing a room 1:36:06.240 --> 1:36:10.360 that it figure things out without really causing hard feelings. Yeah, 1:36:10.640 --> 1:36:14.479 it's not, it's not you're asking the impossible. Yeah, it's 1:36:14.520 --> 1:36:17.320 just me. It's just being reasonable and realistic. And because 1:36:17.439 --> 1:36:19.120 like when I got married, when we got married was 1:36:19.160 --> 1:36:22.040 December six, you know, I just saw the navy and 1:36:22.120 --> 1:36:24.000 Penny's mom made it clear that she's not moving to 1:36:24.120 --> 1:36:27.120 Wisconsin with me unless she's married. And so I looked 1:36:27.120 --> 1:36:29.720 at my schedule, thought, well, dear seasons, you know this, 1:36:30.400 --> 1:36:32.760 how about two weeks after after deer season. So that's 1:36:32.800 --> 1:36:39.000 what we did. Yeah, all right, Doggy Concluders. I was 1:36:39.120 --> 1:36:43.120 fascinated by the wallow conversation. And you've given Pat so 1:36:43.320 --> 1:36:47.120 much credit about Uh. I was pumping them up, pumping 1:36:47.240 --> 1:36:50.000 that wallow, finding that wallow, all the woodsmanship that goes 1:36:50.080 --> 1:36:52.600 along with you know, all these various places where it 1:36:52.680 --> 1:36:55.360 might be already pouring in, And it just reminded me 1:36:55.520 --> 1:36:58.120 so much of being able to figure out where turkeys roosting, 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:05.880 hijacking him on the way good Woods takes good Woods 1:37:05.880 --> 1:37:08.600 and ship to find out where turkey's roost is, to 1:37:08.680 --> 1:37:11.000 find out a turkey's roost and then and then bush wack, 1:37:11.040 --> 1:37:14.000 I'm on his way in there. Pat Concluders, Yeah, my 1:37:14.120 --> 1:37:17.639 concluder is that um. I know you guys like history, 1:37:18.360 --> 1:37:21.439 And when I realized we're gonna be meeting in Lacrosse 1:37:21.560 --> 1:37:26.040 made me think of an old lieutenant um named He 1:37:26.120 --> 1:37:28.120 never lived an old age. I think he died at 1:37:28.120 --> 1:37:30.519 age thirty four in the War of eighteen twelve. His 1:37:30.680 --> 1:37:33.960 name is You probably know of Zebulon Pike, Pike's Peak, 1:37:34.000 --> 1:37:36.920 Pike's Peak, Well, did you know this Western? Did you 1:37:37.000 --> 1:37:40.320 know those two Pikes Peak. Nope, there's one just down 1:37:40.400 --> 1:37:43.000 the road here, just down the river here at um 1:37:43.280 --> 1:37:47.000 in Iowa. That way, Yeah, you go on to Iowa. 1:37:47.200 --> 1:37:51.639 Five feet above right across from Prairie Toucheen and Prairie 1:37:51.640 --> 1:37:53.879 to Sheen is where the Wisconsin River meets the Wisconsin 1:37:54.000 --> 1:37:56.600 meets the Mississippi River. Right across from there is a 1:37:56.720 --> 1:38:01.080 five foot bluff and he named that on Pike's Peak two. 1:38:01.439 --> 1:38:04.280 That was the first one he named. Yeah, and then 1:38:04.760 --> 1:38:10.880 had kind he was, um, yeah, Well, and just about 1:38:10.920 --> 1:38:13.240 fifteen years ago they had like, I think it's a 1:38:13.320 --> 1:38:17.559 centennial over Minnesota, and this guy referred to zebulon Pike 1:38:17.720 --> 1:38:22.120 as um. He said something like, it's two hundred years 1:38:22.360 --> 1:38:25.160 since this exploration he made up the Mississippi, and he's 1:38:25.160 --> 1:38:29.000 still not Lewis and Clark. He's still basically no respect 1:38:29.040 --> 1:38:30.920 for the guy. And one of the reasons that they 1:38:30.960 --> 1:38:33.439 don't respect him to this day is because he was 1:38:33.520 --> 1:38:37.120 One of his missions from from President Jefferson was to 1:38:37.240 --> 1:38:40.439 find the headwaters of the Mississippi. So he went up 1:38:40.439 --> 1:38:43.439 in the central Minnesota, north central Minnesota, and it decided 1:38:43.479 --> 1:38:48.120 that um Leech Lake was the headwaters of the Mississippi. Well, 1:38:48.120 --> 1:38:50.240 of course time went on and they realized, no, it's 1:38:50.320 --> 1:38:53.200 actually to the west lower ways and it's actually like 1:38:53.320 --> 1:38:56.360 a Taska. So he blew that. But while he's up there, 1:38:56.920 --> 1:39:00.280 he set his his his um soldiers to work on 1:39:00.479 --> 1:39:03.040 doug out canoes because they had had to keep exploring. 1:39:03.120 --> 1:39:05.599 So he's had to make these dugout canoes. And they're 1:39:05.600 --> 1:39:07.720 all wondering, why the hell would you make your men 1:39:09.120 --> 1:39:11.320 make dug out canoes when you have were among the 1:39:11.400 --> 1:39:14.240 Chiple people. They have jibwey and they make they're famous 1:39:14.320 --> 1:39:17.439 for these birch bark canoes. But this guy insisted on 1:39:17.880 --> 1:39:21.519 his dugouts. Well, they sank very quickly, they sank with 1:39:21.600 --> 1:39:25.280 all his powder and zebyone pipe. Decide, well, let's try 1:39:25.280 --> 1:39:26.960 the powder out. So he had the guy spread the 1:39:27.160 --> 1:39:30.200 gunpowder over all these all this I think prid camers 1:39:30.320 --> 1:39:32.840 or whatever the cloth they had in those days. And 1:39:32.920 --> 1:39:35.040 then they said that high enough above a fire they 1:39:35.080 --> 1:39:38.840 thought was safe for burned, burned his tents up, So 1:39:38.960 --> 1:39:42.559 that's tense burn up. He's ruined everything, and this kind 1:39:42.600 --> 1:39:45.200 of reputation, these kind of things he did, the things 1:39:45.240 --> 1:39:48.000 he was famous for, is real screw ups. At the 1:39:48.080 --> 1:39:50.200 same time, he had some respect because he was like, 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:53.519 he was a tough he was a tough survivory type guy. 1:39:53.560 --> 1:39:56.160 He'd be sick and he worked through sicknesses and then 1:39:56.520 --> 1:40:00.280 but um his place in history. The people who studied 1:40:00.320 --> 1:40:02.639 him kind of referred to him as the b team 1:40:03.080 --> 1:40:05.519 of Lewis and Clark, that he was he was not, 1:40:05.880 --> 1:40:07.920 he was not in their league. Said, I didn't know 1:40:08.040 --> 1:40:09.680 this about I didn't know that Pike was kind of 1:40:09.800 --> 1:40:14.000 like not slick. Yeah, and he he went Jefferson. Then 1:40:14.160 --> 1:40:17.120 after this UM exploration in this part of the world, 1:40:17.479 --> 1:40:21.160 Jefferson send to explore the UM the southern regions of 1:40:21.200 --> 1:40:24.160 the Louisiana Purchase because Lewis and Clark up doing on 1:40:24.240 --> 1:40:27.679 the northwest. And he went down in the Colorado area. 1:40:28.200 --> 1:40:30.719 He got the Pike's Peak with the Moulteney named Pike's 1:40:30.760 --> 1:40:33.720 Peak out there, and he decided he was trying to 1:40:33.840 --> 1:40:36.200 try to scale Pike's Peak while it got to be 1:40:36.360 --> 1:40:38.040 pretty cold, and they gave up that idea, and he 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:41.479 decided that this this place, this mountain can't be climbed, 1:40:41.720 --> 1:40:43.880 So they gave up, gave up in the idea. Then 1:40:43.920 --> 1:40:47.479 he they started pushing southward, and I think done is 1:40:47.640 --> 1:40:51.799 his messengers Michigan was to find the Red River someplace 1:40:51.920 --> 1:40:55.479 down there. Well, he got his troops all lost. They 1:40:55.520 --> 1:40:59.439 eventually got captured by the Spanish um army. And then 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:03.760 and then apparently his his people, his his men were 1:41:03.880 --> 1:41:06.479 thankful that they had been captured because they finally had 1:41:06.920 --> 1:41:09.840 somebody in charge. I knew what was going on, but 1:41:10.000 --> 1:41:13.200 I'm lost anymore. Yeah, So then eventually they let let 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:15.439 him loose them go back, you know, And but he 1:41:15.560 --> 1:41:17.840 ended up dying not that long after that. He fought 1:41:17.880 --> 1:41:19.320 in the War of eighteen twelve. Of them when they're 1:41:19.439 --> 1:41:23.080 invading Toronto. He had killed in Toronto at age thirty four, 1:41:23.200 --> 1:41:27.679 but yeah, it was Pike died at thirty four four. Yeah, jeez, 1:41:27.720 --> 1:41:31.000 I think Custer was thirty six when he died. Yea 1:41:31.240 --> 1:41:34.120 our rice away life is like, well, I hit thirty 1:41:34.200 --> 1:41:38.639 six and I was like, well Coster died, Now, that's 1:41:38.640 --> 1:41:42.360 the way to you take stock here if people die. Yeah. 1:41:42.400 --> 1:41:47.040 Mozart died at three seven. Yeah, she's like Zebulon. Pike 1:41:47.160 --> 1:41:50.639 died at thirty three or four. He was a general 1:41:50.720 --> 1:41:52.280 by that time, but he was you know, yeah, he 1:41:52.360 --> 1:41:54.479 was dead at thirty four. That makes me feel like 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:57.479 a do nothing. He sucked at everything. It sounds like, 1:41:58.360 --> 1:42:03.280 well a good public apparently. Yeah name big mountains, hey man. 1:42:03.680 --> 1:42:09.599 You know the story about um Laramie. Okay, so Laramie's 1:42:09.600 --> 1:42:12.519 a guy like he's a mountain man, not even shows 1:42:12.600 --> 1:42:15.200 up out west hoping to be a mountain man, quickly 1:42:15.280 --> 1:42:18.280 gets killed under depending who he asked how he got killed, 1:42:18.320 --> 1:42:20.840 he might have got killed by some Indians and stuff 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:22.960 down a hole in the ice and the beaver pond. 1:42:24.200 --> 1:42:27.599 There's a different versions of events, but total Greenhorn shows 1:42:27.680 --> 1:42:32.080 up on the scene very quickly, is dead, murdered, killed 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:36.519 in the action mountain man action winds up with a town, 1:42:37.560 --> 1:42:42.280 a mountain range, a peak, a river and no no, no, 1:42:42.320 --> 1:42:46.080 no no, and yeah you have how he got that 1:42:46.200 --> 1:42:49.639 kind of why they picked his name out. I'm guessing 1:42:49.680 --> 1:42:52.320 it was like because whatever beaver pond, he got stuff 1:42:52.360 --> 1:42:56.160 down through the ice and became Laramie River and then 1:42:57.000 --> 1:43:02.639 people and is a pretty name. Yeah, now Bridger, there's 1:43:02.640 --> 1:43:05.400 a guy that deserves it and got everything named after him. 1:43:07.920 --> 1:43:10.120 That that's my story from that's part of the world, 1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:13.800 you know, from zebulon pikes Um search up here Yeah. 1:43:13.840 --> 1:43:15.599 The moral of the story is look for the highest 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:17.559 thing you can see around and name it after yourself. 1:43:19.600 --> 1:43:22.160 So there are two pikes Peaks. Now you I don't 1:43:22.160 --> 1:43:24.640 know about the Wisconsin one. Well, it's Hashi Iowa. Oh, 1:43:24.680 --> 1:43:27.080 I'm sorry. Yeah, it's it's right across the river from 1:43:27.120 --> 1:43:34.080 Prairie to Sheen. Larry Pete, No, I'm sorry, Pikes Peak Iowa. Ye, 1:43:34.240 --> 1:43:37.200 I'm gonna climb that onet. You can drive right to 1:43:37.320 --> 1:43:40.599 the top of it. And we drove as five feet 1:43:40.640 --> 1:43:45.759 So it's like, what's that one guy? What's fourteen divide 1:43:45.800 --> 1:43:48.680 by four at five? You know I can't do that 1:43:48.800 --> 1:43:51.439 kind of man. I was screwed up. SUTs. It's somewhere 1:43:51.520 --> 1:43:59.519 south five hundred. It's that's the height of Pike's Peak. 1:44:00.520 --> 1:44:03.040 But but yeah, I started our Pike story and he 1:44:03.200 --> 1:44:05.679 was like, he's like, dude, next time I name a mountain, Yeah, 1:44:06.240 --> 1:44:09.639 I'm not doing it like this. He also he also 1:44:09.640 --> 1:44:13.439 apparently picked that spot Pike's Peak for an army fort. 1:44:13.560 --> 1:44:16.120 He suggested the army they built a fort there, when 1:44:16.160 --> 1:44:18.960 then the Army engineers came through years later, looked at 1:44:19.000 --> 1:44:21.680 looked things over and said, no, pretty Sheen will do 1:44:21.760 --> 1:44:23.679 just fine, they're building it up on the on the mountain, 1:44:23.720 --> 1:44:26.160 they're up on the bluff. They're building it down in 1:44:26.240 --> 1:44:29.640 that the confluence of the Wisconsin River the Mississippi River, 1:44:29.840 --> 1:44:32.120 so they could command the river and not to carry 1:44:32.160 --> 1:44:35.200 their stife so far. Yeah, so he wasn't good at 1:44:35.240 --> 1:44:39.320 sighting forts either. His long list of things that wasn't there, 1:44:41.520 --> 1:44:45.480 all right, Doug Durren, No, I know, yeah, yeah, I'm 1:44:45.479 --> 1:44:47.519 just saying your name. I like to end things by 1:44:47.600 --> 1:44:51.680 saying names like that. Thanks for having Yeah. If it 1:44:51.760 --> 1:44:54.080 was the beginning, I'd be like Dug during but then 1:44:54.160 --> 1:45:00.559 I'm like d Dug durn and Patrick Durkin. What's your 1:45:00.600 --> 1:45:05.000 middle named? Pat? Edward P, D P E D P Okay, 1:45:05.800 --> 1:45:08.160 did you have any closing thoughts? No, no, I don't 1:45:08.200 --> 1:45:13.599 have any nothing. Yeah, I'm spent all right, Thank you, Pat, 1:45:13.640 --> 1:45:15.080 Thank you Doug. Well, thanks for having us.