Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast, coming at you shirtless,
Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast.
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything all right, coming at you. You know,
Speaker 1: a little bit bug bitten because I just got back
Speaker 1: from Mexico and got bit by some bit by three
Speaker 1: different kinds of things. A little sand please, not the
Speaker 1: kind of used for fishing bait, not little ghost crabs
Speaker 1: which some people call sand please, bit by those, but
Speaker 1: by regular mosquitoes, and also bit by no seams at dusk,
Speaker 1: sons of bitches come for you. I wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: prepared because dude, I brought down Deep. I put it
Speaker 1: on my kid's legs, and as soon as they went
Speaker 1: to bed, I'd give me a shower. I'm a little
Speaker 1: bit pared worried about Deep, rightfully, so, since it will
Speaker 1: warp your phone, as I found, if you spill Deep,
Speaker 1: if you spill this insecra pullet on your phone, it'll
Speaker 1: warp your phone. So imagine what it does to your
Speaker 1: parts of you know, your skin cells. Uh So, yeah,
Speaker 1: coming at you, partially bug bitten and definitely from the
Speaker 1: banks of the Mississippi. There's a writer that he there's
Speaker 1: a writer named Ben Metcalf. I don't know if he
Speaker 1: writes anymore or not. He's to he's to write pieces
Speaker 1: for Harperism. Was also was an editor somewhere, No yah,
Speaker 1: I can't remember who he worked for, but he wrote,
Speaker 1: and some of his work will be collected to Harper's.
Speaker 1: And this guy Ben Mattcalf wrote a piece called American Heartworm,
Speaker 1: and it was about the Mississippi so as much as Twain,
Speaker 1: as much as Mark Twain would celebrate the Mississippi, Ben
Speaker 1: metcalfe uh lowth it the Mississippi River one of his
Speaker 1: credits for a lot of reasons. One that he feels
Speaker 1: that any self respecting rivers should be able to handle
Speaker 1: some amount of water without spilling out of its banks,
Speaker 1: and like it for that reason. Another thing is he
Speaker 1: feels that it's also the Mississippi is a con man
Speaker 1: um and his and and stole like stole its place
Speaker 1: in the American lexicon because by any regional reasonable measure,
Speaker 1: by any understanding of a hydrology, the Mississippi isn't the Mississippi.
Speaker 1: The Mississippi is the Missouri. The Missouri is the great
Speaker 1: continent drainer. I mean it heads in three Forks, Montana
Speaker 1: where it's principle where it's UH. Three forks is the
Speaker 1: confluence of the Madison, Gallatin, and Jefferson. So it's like
Speaker 1: the Secretary of UH at the time of the Lewis
Speaker 1: and Clark expedition. Yeah, Madison Secretary state, that's over my head, Jefferson,
Speaker 1: And get look at who then armed after those three
Speaker 1: fellers and all all political figures at the time they
Speaker 1: all head together. They come together at three forks and
Speaker 1: form in the Missouri. And then that thing flows thousands
Speaker 1: of miles and picks up a little ship in tributary
Speaker 1: called the Mississippi and thereby changes its name. What all
Speaker 1: this is doing is just like picking up a minor
Speaker 1: tributary dwarfed by like not nearly what the Ohio is.
Speaker 1: When it picks it up, it should be called the
Speaker 1: Missouri River. Who has this little, little known tributary called
Speaker 1: the Mississippi. This has been Metcalf's argument because we're empty.
Speaker 1: It's not where it begins. It's because people saw it
Speaker 1: and didn't really didn't really until later fully comprehend like
Speaker 1: what that watershed was, that it was one of the
Speaker 1: great if at the confluence if the which one is greater,
Speaker 1: like which one has it when they come together. The
Speaker 1: Missouri's carrying more water mhm. And the Missouri has been
Speaker 1: cranking along for the Mississippi heads like north Yeah, north
Speaker 1: central Minnesota. So how far from here? Not as far
Speaker 1: away as western Montana. The river is a con man. Uh,
Speaker 1: you don't wanted to talk about that. This quick little
Speaker 1: thing that I found on it, it just says the
Speaker 1: president was named after the President and two of his
Speaker 1: cabinet members. But it doesn't say Jefferson was the president.
Speaker 1: Doesn't well, Tommy Jefferson, but it doesn't say you know
Speaker 1: what positions they held in the cabinet. It was like, uh,
Speaker 1: it was like treasure and secretary or something like that.
Speaker 1: Easy to find out, easy, so easy to find out.
Speaker 1: It's staggering that Yanni hasn't found out yet. Um, you're
Speaker 1: honest to recap some of your time you've been messing
Speaker 1: around with SUV cooking. M you just did some shanks
Speaker 1: in your SUV machine. Tell me about that hours I
Speaker 1: cooked him at what temperature? Hundred and sixty that's hot
Speaker 1: for Suvi? Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, it is on
Speaker 1: the hotter side. I don't think you Look, I've done
Speaker 1: two different recipes now, so I'm definitely still figuring out.
Speaker 1: And from what I've been reading online, I think there's
Speaker 1: still a lot of figuring out. I think one of
Speaker 1: the pluses or you know, pitching points off suv is that, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a great window they the meat is done and
Speaker 1: what won't be overdone. You might explain it to folks.
Speaker 1: What we're talking about is the bulk of them. I
Speaker 1: think the bulk of might know. My brother just last night,
Speaker 1: what if I knew what a bond me sandwich was.
Speaker 1: I've been eating those things for Yeah, those are tasty
Speaker 1: long time. So here's the guy. One website called Chef's
Speaker 1: Steps dot com, which is a Suvie recipe website. I
Speaker 1: have there you go, Um, they have a squirrel bond
Speaker 1: Me recipe made with Suvie squirrel Me. Yeah, but my
Speaker 1: bro made bond me with Patte that you made from
Speaker 1: some some game livers, dear liver and something else. Putting.
Speaker 1: I would bet you there's no way we can find
Speaker 1: out but that it might not be the bulk of
Speaker 1: our listeners would know what Suvi is. I'm guessing I
Speaker 1: would take that bat would you're saying that of the
Speaker 1: mugs listening right now, less than half are familiar with SUVI. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that that's a high probability, high enough
Speaker 1: where I would take the sure break it down. But
Speaker 1: some Suvie cooking basic Let me do this. You know
Speaker 1: what Suvie is. I don't know, Mr durn, don't look
Speaker 1: at me. Man, So half of this room, um, and
Speaker 1: they actually count of listeners, I really don't. But you
Speaker 1: basically there's a it's cooking in water and so that
Speaker 1: you're cooking meat and water, actually cook anything. There's vegetable recipes,
Speaker 1: there's fish recipes, but so that you don't uh, you know,
Speaker 1: basically boil your meat and get it all soggy. You
Speaker 1: put it into a sealed plastic bag. Now you can
Speaker 1: just use a regular old ziplock, or if you have
Speaker 1: a vacuum sealer, you can go that route. Um. The machine,
Speaker 1: the way that the whole system step is usually just
Speaker 1: used like a large stockpot, maybe a two or your
Speaker 1: gallon stockpot. And then there's a machine that looks like
Speaker 1: a I don't know, it's wand shaped, I guess, um,
Speaker 1: And basically half of it plunges down into the water
Speaker 1: and it regulates the temperature of the water. And I
Speaker 1: don't know what the lowest and highest settings are, but
Speaker 1: you basically just set that and it keeps it at
Speaker 1: a perfect temp that you want to keep it at
Speaker 1: for however long you want to do it. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: you like if you're cooking, Like let's say you're cooking
Speaker 1: a roast and you want to pull the roast it
Speaker 1: for rare, you know you want to pull, you pull,
Speaker 1: you want to pull your venison rolls. So say you like,
Speaker 1: I like to pull it up. Well, the ovens four
Speaker 1: d degrees, right, So this thing is climbing, climb and climb,
Speaker 1: and to eventually reach that and you're intercepting it at
Speaker 1: that point where you want to nap it out then
Speaker 1: and there you are. Yeah. Added, the complication of that
Speaker 1: set is that you pull it at one temp knowing
Speaker 1: that it's going to continue to rise to your goal
Speaker 1: temperature because the outer heat is going to continue to
Speaker 1: penetrate into the inside. So this you just said that
Speaker 1: what you want to end up at exactly. So if
Speaker 1: you're cooking, if you know that you like your salmon,
Speaker 1: say at blank temp, you just set your water bath
Speaker 1: at that temp drop in your back. So I mean,
Speaker 1: if you think about it, like if you said it
Speaker 1: at one sixty, the meat never gets above one sixty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but what does happen is that there is a breaking
Speaker 1: down of you know, proteins. Obviously because I cooked my
Speaker 1: shanks for forty eight hours and hours, that's the thing.
Speaker 1: But again the recipe was like, it's like we could
Speaker 1: have eight eaten it Saturday night. Instead we ate it Sunday.
Speaker 1: It's perfect on Tuesday, and it's perfect on Wednesday because
Speaker 1: it's just keeping it at that temperature that whole time.
Speaker 1: It's not rising, which I think when you're going for
Speaker 1: a medium rare steak is important. But in this case
Speaker 1: the shanks, it's obviously continuing to break it down, which
Speaker 1: is I think where it might get a little bit trickier.
Speaker 1: The window might not be as great when you are
Speaker 1: working with a piece of me that you want to
Speaker 1: eat it medium rare, because medium rare or whatever, hundred
Speaker 1: thirty degrees after six hours is going to be different
Speaker 1: than a hundred thirty degrees after ten hours. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I kind of exaggerate about done on Tuesday and down
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, same temperature on Tuesday, same temperature on Wednesday.
Speaker 1: But it has a Hessy effect of you can screw
Speaker 1: it up, you can screw it up. I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly how yet. I'll know more. I'm gonna keep messing
Speaker 1: around with it, but well, I know how like things
Speaker 1: that I've screwed up is, I've found it. When it
Speaker 1: comes to cooking wild game For me personally, UM, I
Speaker 1: don't like. I don't like to use the Suvi for
Speaker 1: like lean gross that don't have a lot of connective
Speaker 1: tissue on them, such as like if you were to
Speaker 1: take a white tail deer and take the sirloin or
Speaker 1: round rolls off the back leg, I can get a
Speaker 1: better effect. I can get a better product in my
Speaker 1: oven that I can get with my Suvie because it
Speaker 1: gives it to my taste, it gives it a sort
Speaker 1: of pastiness. Where I think it really shines is when
Speaker 1: it comes down to cooking things. It's it's an easy,
Speaker 1: pretty failsafe way to cook cuts that are best cooked
Speaker 1: slow cooked strategy, like I've taken one of the one
Speaker 1: of the things I made that I liked most was
Speaker 1: Suvi was I took one time. I have Elena front
Speaker 1: leg of have alna, which is a rascally little a
Speaker 1: rascally little hunkle. It just sounds tough. Yes, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can pull those strands out and flash your teeth with them. Okay,
Speaker 1: but in that thing, I think I gave it like
Speaker 1: thirty six hours, um, and then it just is like
Speaker 1: you could just pick it apart of your fingers and
Speaker 1: it's silk and beautiful. Yeah. Well I just kind of
Speaker 1: tossed those picked all that meat, kind of tossed him
Speaker 1: with oil and then stuck him under a broiler for
Speaker 1: a minute because the thing was stuvee. Cooking is you're
Speaker 1: oftentimes getting it just right. But what you get used
Speaker 1: to And I remember one time a chef like reading
Speaker 1: about the chef who was wanted to quit being a chef,
Speaker 1: and he says, well, I just got bored with it. Um,
Speaker 1: making things soft on the inside and crispy on the outside.
Speaker 1: It just got old to me. But when you do
Speaker 1: a roast in your oven, like one of the nice
Speaker 1: things about it is you get that like that like
Speaker 1: finished outside, you know, like crispy browned outside, and you
Speaker 1: cut in and low behold, there's like this magical red
Speaker 1: middle and it's like the whole thing together. All the
Speaker 1: parts are bigger than any individual part. The texture that
Speaker 1: meat of a nice roast like that, the texture and
Speaker 1: the meat is a part of it. And if the
Speaker 1: other way of cooking is breaking that down, then I
Speaker 1: see where you're because you wind up with the whole
Speaker 1: beauty of it, like the crispy outside, the red size,
Speaker 1: like it's all nice together. So what a part of
Speaker 1: Stuvie cook Like most Suvie preparations, you'll find that you're
Speaker 1: gonna get it perfect and then see it after the fact.
Speaker 1: Whereas if I'm cooking rolls to my oven, I see
Speaker 1: it and finishing my oven. Here you're off and like
Speaker 1: a lot of if you're looking at the Suvie a
Speaker 1: lot of preparations, you're starting it. You get it all done,
Speaker 1: it's ready to go. Can you take that thing out
Speaker 1: and see it? Or people even finish them with like
Speaker 1: a torch apparatus, right like you might like eat people
Speaker 1: to do like Suvie scallops and then take a torch
Speaker 1: and see here the scout with a torch and really
Speaker 1: control that. Then you know. So it's real science he cooking.
Speaker 1: But as good as it is for some stuff, I
Speaker 1: don't think it's like perfect. It's not like perfect for everything. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think all of a sudden, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: start having just get ready your oven. Five buckets in
Speaker 1: the kitchen, and one says Monday and Tuesday Wednesday. But
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what's cool, though, is you could take
Speaker 1: a couple, let's say, because you did chanks right, how
Speaker 1: they turn out great? So I had I did a
Speaker 1: m sick of dear shank, the whole shank in the bag.
Speaker 1: It had a white tail shank. And then I had
Speaker 1: one bag. I think they had three or four of those. Again,
Speaker 1: do you know the name of that little it's like
Speaker 1: a shank, but you know it's not connected to the bone.
Speaker 1: It's connected to that that goes up on the hind leg.
Speaker 1: We kind of get that big shank like peace right,
Speaker 1: It has all that same seeing you in college and
Speaker 1: stuff running through it. And um, the ones on the
Speaker 1: bone were just delightful, this silky smooth, wonderful flavor. Um,
Speaker 1: and no dryness at all about him. The antelope little
Speaker 1: football tendon chunks I just described. Um there's still a
Speaker 1: touch of dryness and it wasn't the SUV's fault. It's
Speaker 1: just the cut of me. It just didn't have as
Speaker 1: much fat, connected tissue whatever it is as the shanks
Speaker 1: that were on the bone. Yeah, that's that's kind of
Speaker 1: like the sort of the thing with all forms of
Speaker 1: cooking is um not all hunks of meat made equal. No,
Speaker 1: if you went to make sure, if you took some
Speaker 1: like surloin meat and went and did a a shank
Speaker 1: preparation for it's gonna be miserable. But there's something about
Speaker 1: those those pieces that have all that collagen or stuff
Speaker 1: that breaks to connective tissue, silver skin, tendons that break
Speaker 1: down into that just like silky beautiness. I love it um.
Speaker 1: Well to say it's nice thing about it is, if
Speaker 1: let's say you're having some folks over for dinner, you
Speaker 1: could bag out servings, stick them in that thing and
Speaker 1: you don't know you're eating at five o'clock or eight o'clock. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can bag out serving stick them in that thing
Speaker 1: the day, a day and a half before, two days before,
Speaker 1: a day before whatever, for your partic your preparation, knowing
Speaker 1: that at the second you want to reach in there
Speaker 1: and cut those bags open, it's already but you're just
Speaker 1: you're just like putting you know, you're you're putting all
Speaker 1: the ingredients in there, you can you know. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: I'm saying like like you know, you're if you're doing shanks,
Speaker 1: you're putting all the azabuco, all the things would traditionally
Speaker 1: going to asa bugle in that bag and stealing that
Speaker 1: bag up and putting them in there. What I'd like
Speaker 1: to mess around with a little bit is like I
Speaker 1: was thinking about maybe putting like a couple of sprigs
Speaker 1: at time in there, sprig of rose man, some butter,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe trying to some wonder if it will
Speaker 1: impart that flavor. No, I feel, yeah, I've packed that
Speaker 1: bag full of good things to eat, even you know,
Speaker 1: doing something like the Havolino sang. But yeah, I just
Speaker 1: like for me though, cooking those like loin and loin
Speaker 1: and like quality roast. It's like I get such what
Speaker 1: I get out of my oven cannot be beatn yes,
Speaker 1: can you. It's more of a replacement for basically brazing technique.
Speaker 1: It's a nice it's a nice fail safe, time friendly.
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time to do it, but
Speaker 1: it's good preparation. And when you said that you're putting
Speaker 1: all kinds of good So you're like putting vegetables and
Speaker 1: all kinds of things in with it. Sure you can't
Speaker 1: know that the vegetables are going to be yeah, because
Speaker 1: like you know everything even then everything has its own
Speaker 1: cookie time. I mean there's like it's it's becoming such
Speaker 1: a popular thing now that there's no short you can
Speaker 1: go find recipes for anything. Should you go buy us?
Speaker 1: If you buy a Suvie device, it's gonna come with
Speaker 1: a book. You realize every damn thing you've ever eaten
Speaker 1: now one thing? Uh Um. Steve Kendrot, he's been doing salmon,
Speaker 1: Like I gave him some salmon from the fish shack.
Speaker 1: He's doing salmon and his Suvie and loving it. That
Speaker 1: dude is a Suvie fool. Now he knows about it,
Speaker 1: you know, he damned sure know about it. He likes it.
Speaker 1: I sent him some vacuum bags and he was he
Speaker 1: was more fired up about Suvian with him than he
Speaker 1: was about freezing him. Huh. Speaking of Steve, I was
Speaker 1: also telling you that made his Fennel sauceag dress um,
Speaker 1: which it's just it's it's so good. It might be
Speaker 1: so good because it is so simple. But literally all
Speaker 1: it is is fat, salt, pepper, and fennel. Well meat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you got your yeah, you got your buck meat.
Speaker 1: Then he caught the fat in. Yeah, a lot of fat.
Speaker 1: It's his recipe was fifty fifty's much and I had
Speaker 1: the sauceage is phenomenal. But I think it's like, but
Speaker 1: I wanted the first time I wanted to do it.
Speaker 1: I want to follow the recipe because I feel like
Speaker 1: you should. And then you can tweak it because you
Speaker 1: just never know otherwise. So next time I probably will
Speaker 1: cut it back to forty, maybe even thirty. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And my thinking of it goes to be honest, like
Speaker 1: what tastes good fifty fifty. At some point it ceases
Speaker 1: to be a wild game dish, that's true. At some
Speaker 1: point it becomes it's like a hybrid. It's all a hybrid.
Speaker 1: Like my brother used to be like a real purist
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't put any domestic fat in his gaming.
Speaker 1: He would just if he was making burgers, he'd crack
Speaker 1: an egg in there, Danny, he'd crack an egg in
Speaker 1: there so he could make it hold together into patty.
Speaker 1: That's extreme I think is extreme. I find my personal
Speaker 1: comfort zone in the ten to fat. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: feel like, to me, sausage, it can't be sausage. And
Speaker 1: if there's if it's not like greasy enough, there's gotta
Speaker 1: be some grease left in the pan, because otherwise I
Speaker 1: feel like you're just eating this like thing that kind
Speaker 1: of tastes like sausage because the flavors there. But something
Speaker 1: is just not sausage like because you've taken too much
Speaker 1: fat out. Okay, then let's come up with a different
Speaker 1: word for it. Meat. Uh sticks, No, that's not right.
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Sausage flavor dry meat, ground dry,
Speaker 1: ground meat, sauceage flavor dry me. I'm cool with that,
Speaker 1: but his sausage is really good. Anyways, Yeah, back to it,
Speaker 1: and the recipe came out wonderful. I mean it's just
Speaker 1: so simple fennel. I mean it's all you're like tasting
Speaker 1: and salt, pepper, and it's wonder Does he toast his
Speaker 1: fennel first? I don't know if the recipe didn't call
Speaker 1: for that's a good trick man, when you're making sausage
Speaker 1: like whatever, like sweet Italian any kind of sausage. You're
Speaker 1: putting fennel in there. Take all your seeds and toast them, right,
Speaker 1: what does that do? Smells your whole house up, like
Speaker 1: fennel smells good man. I don't know if it then
Speaker 1: goes away, but just like really like pleasing. If you
Speaker 1: toast them and you get them all warm, like coriander, fennel, whatever,
Speaker 1: you put them in a pan over burn is a
Speaker 1: dry pan over burner, kind of shake it and they'll
Speaker 1: kind of let off like a like an oil, and
Speaker 1: they'll get very fragrant. Then throw those. But if they're
Speaker 1: still warm, you throw those in your coffee grinder. If
Speaker 1: you're doing like if you're like pulverizing a little bit,
Speaker 1: then you really got something that smells nice. I think
Speaker 1: it's got to add to the flavor because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of dishes, like when you're cooking Indian food, A
Speaker 1: lot of times like you've sauteed your onions and and
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of the other things that you're sautang
Speaker 1: like that in the oil that might take five or
Speaker 1: ten minutes. And before you add like let's just say
Speaker 1: ifest curry, before you add the coconut milk and your carrots,
Speaker 1: and peas and chicken or whatever it might be. UM,
Speaker 1: when you throw the spices in, you let them kind
Speaker 1: of cooking toast in that pan for a couple of
Speaker 1: minutes to you know, release extra flavor, and then you
Speaker 1: add in the rest of the ingredients. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: it works the same for that funnel. The next thing
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sue v and this is the last we'll
Speaker 1: talk about it. I still have two big gass yellow
Speaker 1: eye flats that I've been eyeballing in my freezer, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to get to them pretty quick. They last
Speaker 1: a lot longer in salmon and the freezer because they're
Speaker 1: not that fatty. But I'm gonna do those. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do those guys with my SUV machine. I used to
Speaker 1: have a giant Stuvie machine that came with like what
Speaker 1: looked like you can wash a child in the tub.
Speaker 1: But I gave it to my buddy Pooter because now
Speaker 1: I got that smaller one. Um. Pat Dark and Doug
Speaker 1: during the Cousins, the Drek and during Cousins Pat. Okay,
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter what you say, because it's not
Speaker 1: gonna change in my mind. What who who has tell
Speaker 1: me about your opinions on your findings on wound wound loss.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say before you even said what you said,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I know, Mary, what do I
Speaker 1: say right now? I probably won't change your mind. You
Speaker 1: were going to preface, Yeah, I was gonna be my preface. Um,
Speaker 1: I'll start by saying one article I've always liked. The
Speaker 1: way I handled it was I broke it down one
Speaker 1: time in a Wisconsin gun season to show that our
Speaker 1: peak deer season was the year two thousand when we
Speaker 1: killed like over four hundred thousand deer in Wisconsin and
Speaker 1: we basically if I broke it down to show that
Speaker 1: we were killing about one point four deer per second
Speaker 1: during that nine day guns season, and you break it
Speaker 1: over the course of the nine day season, and then
Speaker 1: I started calculating. I started looking into it to kill
Speaker 1: one point four deer second. Comment, So, all right, did
Speaker 1: you ever figure it out like an opening day? No? See,
Speaker 1: actually I actually did that, but I don't have that.
Speaker 1: I don't have that at the tip of my tongue. No.
Speaker 1: I actually did break it down by by UM opening
Speaker 1: weekend and then UM opening Day and then the rest
Speaker 1: of the season. I had this whole article on this
Speaker 1: whole topic, so real, real quick. On opening day of
Speaker 1: the four hundred thousand they got killed in the season,
Speaker 1: can you guess how many got killed in open open
Speaker 1: the weekend typically opening weekend. I think they figure close
Speaker 1: to sixty percent gets killed opening weekend night. Then it
Speaker 1: just kind of goes down picks back up around Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: because we always have our season around starts the weekend
Speaker 1: before Thanksgiving, the ends the Sunday after Thanksgiving. How big
Speaker 1: was the deer herd this year? The year you're talking about, um,
Speaker 1: that was like an all time record numbers. So I
Speaker 1: think they calculated one five million deer or so one
Speaker 1: point six million they they estimated in that population, and
Speaker 1: they were able to they were able to pull a
Speaker 1: harvest of four hundred It wasn't even more a four
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. And that was at the time regarded as
Speaker 1: like wildly too many deers. Oh yeah, I mean well,
Speaker 1: I think realistic people I thought that was too many deer.
Speaker 1: We had too many deer and deer on the ground
Speaker 1: not getting killed. But then you go into, um, what
Speaker 1: hunters want though, and there was a lot of hunters
Speaker 1: that your thousand that was a pretty mediocre to average season,
Speaker 1: you know, so you always get those arguments A happy
Speaker 1: never happy. As I said the last time we talked,
Speaker 1: deer make people stupid, just the way it is. Um.
Speaker 1: But to continue my discussion though, is I UM, I
Speaker 1: got curious about that after for shooting that made dear
Speaker 1: you know, deer per second, and I think last season
Speaker 1: was point zero point six two deer per second in
Speaker 1: the last cutting season two thousand seventeen, two seventeen was
Speaker 1: zero point six to deer, so point six deer per second,
Speaker 1: and in two thousand it was more than more than
Speaker 1: double that over the average out of the course during
Speaker 1: hunting hours. I just was doing some math there exactly. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I broke it. I broke it down by hours of
Speaker 1: shooting light, the kind of thing. And then, um, what
Speaker 1: was fun then was I took those kind of numbers
Speaker 1: and started digging into the research I could find on
Speaker 1: on how how many shots get fired for each year killed.
Speaker 1: And there actually is you know, some research around Wisconsin
Speaker 1: from the seventies, and there's research from Carolina, South Carolina
Speaker 1: in two thousand, not that time period. UM Ontario did
Speaker 1: this one time, but basically Wisconsin back in the seventies
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies UM, and some of the research that did
Speaker 1: was it was averaging between three point five and seven
Speaker 1: shots per year taken was about what was coming at Yeah, this,
Speaker 1: this is, this is in one area. This is never
Speaker 1: only as qualifiers. We're all never convinced you because it's
Speaker 1: most studies are taking place in controlled settings because he
Speaker 1: can't just squa out in the landscape with all the
Speaker 1: variables and get anything interesting. And so anyway, you had
Speaker 1: this variability because they had different kind of seasons. They
Speaker 1: sept one season was endless only, so the guys had
Speaker 1: to be more careful when you shot that you weren't
Speaker 1: shooting a buck, So that that kind of cuts down
Speaker 1: how many how many shots are being fired if you
Speaker 1: have a wide open season where anything is legal. They
Speaker 1: were shooting a lot. They shot like almost twice of
Speaker 1: many shots and those kind of seasons. But then I
Speaker 1: looked at m I phone this this research from South
Speaker 1: Carolina looked into that, and they were shooting only one
Speaker 1: point two times for each deer they killed. And those
Speaker 1: guys that were sitting up and basically shooting house rateful
Speaker 1: of rest nice setups were there, touching out the shots
Speaker 1: like a real precision type shooting. And then you had
Speaker 1: um other scenarios. So none of these things are all equal.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm getting that here. So so I fine,
Speaker 1: I did was I had? So so the South Carolinians
Speaker 1: are when they looked at this, they were shooting not much,
Speaker 1: not much one point two shots per deer. But who
Speaker 1: was up? Who was super high again Wisconsin man, you guys?
Speaker 1: Yeah it was but of course to well right not
Speaker 1: not now what Doug brings point, it's a fair point
Speaker 1: because plus the plus they're hunting an area where guys
Speaker 1: couldn't go in set up tripod stands, I couldn't hang
Speaker 1: all these different things. It's probably being shot off the ground,
Speaker 1: you know, offhand, and so the conditions weren't liked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's probably more like shitty scopes the way that the
Speaker 1: way yes old guys used to hunt. You know, I
Speaker 1: took a lot more shots when I was younger. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but then but then so like what I did though,
Speaker 1: is I looked at these different variables and thought read
Speaker 1: us range from one point to deer per shot two
Speaker 1: over seven? So anyway at seven shots, yeah, and and
Speaker 1: and and I just I can't understand it. I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not calling you a liar. I just don't understand it.
Speaker 1: Where a lot of that comes from is that you're
Speaker 1: shooting lover her actions, pump shots, shotguns, that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: some atomatics, and and they're shooting showing too that once
Speaker 1: a guy um missed a shot, well he had follow
Speaker 1: up shots, and like half the guy shooting at that
Speaker 1: first shot, we're missing the shot, right, and then the
Speaker 1: dude takes off and bang bang bang. All of a sudden,
Speaker 1: there's lead in the air. So you can say he
Speaker 1: does that three times, and he does that two times,
Speaker 1: and then it gets a deer fun yeah, and you think, well,
Speaker 1: I but I'm pulled the hunting grounds up the river
Speaker 1: here and um Wendona, Minnesota back in the early nineties,
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking every time it sounds like no
Speaker 1: shotguns one off because it shocking the only area if
Speaker 1: it's not like they're shooting all five shots. So that's
Speaker 1: some atomatic, you know, shotgun or pump shotgun. It was.
Speaker 1: It was constant, and so I would I guess I'm
Speaker 1: not that shocked by hearing that seven was average in
Speaker 1: this one particular. There's there's one hunt that this one
Speaker 1: on like that. Yeah, if you go read Yanni's buddy
Speaker 1: Jack O'Connor, I'll call Jannie O'Connor Jack O'Connor. All those
Speaker 1: guys did was shoot. Yeah, they'd crawl up on a
Speaker 1: her to something and it would be the you know,
Speaker 1: twenty rounds and then they'd go up and like analyze
Speaker 1: the performance. The first shot caught it, you know, low
Speaker 1: across the chin, second shot, the second, third, and fourth, fifth,
Speaker 1: and sixth with them. My seventh shot really brought anchored
Speaker 1: it down. Well, so sure, yeah, so what I did
Speaker 1: those at average done? I thought, well, seven is obviously
Speaker 1: throw that one out once. Yeah, that's the other extreme.
Speaker 1: But average is out and you came up. My average
Speaker 1: came up the three point four or five shots per second,
Speaker 1: I mean per per per deer. And so then I
Speaker 1: started calculating that. I thought, well, last gun season Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: if you use three point five point five three point
Speaker 1: four or five shots per deer last year in Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: we was shot close to eight hundred thousand rounds to
Speaker 1: get to get that number of deer. We we brought
Speaker 1: front in last last fall. And during that season that
Speaker 1: I talked about our record season it was up in
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I think a million and a half shots.
Speaker 1: And well then I went and I thought, I looked
Speaker 1: at the top ten deer states in our country, and
Speaker 1: that year two thousand and I came up to it's
Speaker 1: like twelve and a half million rounds. If you're using
Speaker 1: that as your average, we're being fired. So then so
Speaker 1: I'm working my way back to your discussion here. You know,
Speaker 1: I have it. It's just too staggering for me though.
Speaker 1: It's huge. And so when when we get these discussions
Speaker 1: about wounding, I've always maintained that in my own experience,
Speaker 1: it's it's tougher when I look at every year i've killed.
Speaker 1: I've killed over a hundred of them. I think when
Speaker 1: I've shot the one is the rifle I didn't I
Speaker 1: didn't always know if I got him or not. By that,
Speaker 1: by the way, the dear responded, where I thought most
Speaker 1: of your shout the bowl, I've always known if I
Speaker 1: hit him or not. I mean, I don't think I've
Speaker 1: ever been shocked. You know that I missed one or right,
Speaker 1: or I hit one that that that I thought I missed,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. That's a good point. Yeah, gun
Speaker 1: hunting bull hunting. You you don't, Yeah, you don't usually
Speaker 1: like can't tell if you you typically might you might want,
Speaker 1: you might shoot and then not be clear on the
Speaker 1: quality of it. Oh, that's that's common. I mean you
Speaker 1: talked that's almost not not quite the dorm, but it's
Speaker 1: pretty typically not a little like man, oh, it looked
Speaker 1: like it might be a little far back, Yeah, a
Speaker 1: little high. When you talk to guys at track deer
Speaker 1: with with with dogs and they asked the guy, where'd
Speaker 1: you hit this deer? And the typical bull on say
Speaker 1: right here in the pocket and the shoulder, and they
Speaker 1: find the deer and that's got you know, you know,
Speaker 1: in the hand, in the hams. You know, who knows
Speaker 1: where you know? So so so I've always thought that
Speaker 1: if you really get some research on this, what research
Speaker 1: we have, and find out what the percentages are for
Speaker 1: bull hunting versus gun hunting, I'm I'm pretty well convinced
Speaker 1: that it's about equal. I really, Uh it's it's because
Speaker 1: but again, what what that that that you know it's
Speaker 1: pulled holes or my argument because all of those studies
Speaker 1: have been basically done under pretty controlled situations. You know,
Speaker 1: bull hunting the ones they've been able to study are
Speaker 1: typically control situations. It's like the one that's famous for
Speaker 1: the initial one that we often refer to. It up
Speaker 1: here at Camp Propley, a couple hundred miles from here
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, and there they had um their their initial
Speaker 1: wounding UM number percentage of deer wounded was I think
Speaker 1: around writ in that range. But then they figured that
Speaker 1: they realized, well, just because the deer is wounded doesn't
Speaker 1: mean it's it's dead. It doesn't mean it's I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna be recovered. And sure enough they found that in
Speaker 1: that situation is a lot of hunters in that in
Speaker 1: that camp. And these are weekend hunts. I should should
Speaker 1: have that too, just strictly a two day hunt that
Speaker 1: it's done. It's a real control situation. But they found
Speaker 1: was that, um, they're average over over four thing. It's
Speaker 1: like four different hunts they they studied, only of those
Speaker 1: deer were never recovered. Of those deer that were shot
Speaker 1: and hit in some location, only on average weren't recovered
Speaker 1: taking home, taking home, you know, a guy dragged that
Speaker 1: deer out of the alf the cants property. Now, um,
Speaker 1: then there's also indible condition. Yeah, yeah, because you know
Speaker 1: at Sunday at at this is on Saturday, Sunday hunt
Speaker 1: that they did Camp Ripley Sunday afternoon. The Army basically
Speaker 1: throws you out. You can't go back and look for
Speaker 1: your deer if you don't have it. Tough luck, you know.
Speaker 1: So that's what that was, the unrecovered deer was and
Speaker 1: this was which weapon arrow that was back in the
Speaker 1: early nineties. And so that's one study. Then the other
Speaker 1: days they've done. One was out in Connecticut and that
Speaker 1: suburban area. One was over Iowa in a suburban area.
Speaker 1: And then there's like a naval weapons station out in
Speaker 1: Maryland did one well not too long ago. They wrapped
Speaker 1: it up about ten years ago, and there's was one
Speaker 1: of Maryland. I think there wounding rate was um, I
Speaker 1: think eighteen percent where these are deer that were hit
Speaker 1: and not recovered. Now, the one in Connecticut was about
Speaker 1: I think fourteen thirteen pcent and the one in Iowa
Speaker 1: suburbs was about so and then then the one with
Speaker 1: now now switching to rifle. How many of these rely
Speaker 1: on self reporting? Well, they all rely on self reporting.
Speaker 1: That's what okay. And when I earlier when I said
Speaker 1: that no matter what you said, won't because because I
Speaker 1: know that relies on self reporting. Yeah. But but what
Speaker 1: they find too is self reporting typically is that if
Speaker 1: you get the people right on the spot when they
Speaker 1: come in. Most of these guys, like in these in
Speaker 1: these suburban hunts, these are guys that, um, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure the one and well I know the one Connecticut
Speaker 1: was a shooting test. He had to pass the shooting
Speaker 1: testable when they're to even be allowed to hunt. And
Speaker 1: I think the one in Iowa had that kind of speculation. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's and then again that's in near a factor that
Speaker 1: these are people who are dead serious bull hunters who
Speaker 1: know that taking long shots is used to increase the risk.
Speaker 1: But what I found interesting looking at that South Carolina
Speaker 1: study and with a rifle, these are dead serious riflemen,
Speaker 1: and these guys they're sitting there with basically a little
Speaker 1: tripods and they're shooting set up there. They're typically shooting
Speaker 1: on a fifty yards and aren't five yards, and they
Speaker 1: found a real split once you started going beyond yards.
Speaker 1: Even these guys were really good, they started hitting more
Speaker 1: deer and not knowing if they hit him, losing them.
Speaker 1: That kind of thing, but every shot taken, every deer
Speaker 1: fired at in that study, they had dogs, they'd go
Speaker 1: out there and look around, and and that study that
Speaker 1: they end up finding out that they figured the wounding
Speaker 1: it was about fit, was about wounding loss. Even with
Speaker 1: that these really good shots shooting control settings, not taking
Speaker 1: these long flyers, they were still you know, had a
Speaker 1: fifteen wounding loss And a lot of those do they'd
Speaker 1: never have found if not for the dogs going out
Speaker 1: there and finding evidence of a hit that they thought
Speaker 1: they missed, you know, because you know, you know, everyone
Speaker 1: here has been a situations where you fired a shot
Speaker 1: on to fit the yards across the field or whatever.
Speaker 1: You walk over and you look around, look around, look around,
Speaker 1: you can't find the sign, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: would give up not not looking any further. There's no
Speaker 1: snow cover in many cases. And that's the factor that
Speaker 1: all these moving parts is what makes a wounding loss
Speaker 1: so hard to ever really pinned down for sure, is
Speaker 1: that you have so many different conditions, so many different
Speaker 1: um ways that things can go wrong, that it's hard
Speaker 1: to really quantify this stuff. But what we have the
Speaker 1: qualify really show is pretty strikingly similar results. So why
Speaker 1: I say I would, I would have a hard time
Speaker 1: being convinced that bull is wound any more on a
Speaker 1: percentage basis than rifles. Handful of thoughts. In keeping with
Speaker 1: today's political atmosphere, I'm just gonna ignore the data, okay,
Speaker 1: and just go with what I know is. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna go what I know is right. Um. But I had, yeah,
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One is, this isn't this is
Speaker 1: not to me, this is not a moral argument, Okay,
Speaker 1: Like to me, the UM, I think each person strives
Speaker 1: to well damn sure better strive to be is effective
Speaker 1: and human and as efficient as possible. UM. And I
Speaker 1: think that when you go into the woods, no matter
Speaker 1: like how high your skill set and how good your intentions,
Speaker 1: there's always the chance that something can go wrong, and
Speaker 1: it will if you stick at it long enough, and
Speaker 1: you'll hit something that you don't find it just it
Speaker 1: just happens. So by saying that one is more or
Speaker 1: less effect one method of hunting, you know, we could
Speaker 1: even break out crossbows and break out trad archery and
Speaker 1: break out um, you know, conventional archery, tackle and break
Speaker 1: out firearms. UM. No matter how much you break it
Speaker 1: down and start comparing them to me. It's not like
Speaker 1: you're not like trying to find a value judgment. You're
Speaker 1: You're not looking for like who's right, who's correct, and
Speaker 1: who's incorrect, who's right and who's wrong. I'm not chasing
Speaker 1: after that. So it makes it that the discussion, Um yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an acade. It's more it's almost an academic subject,
Speaker 1: I think. But it can and inform things I am generally.
Speaker 1: That's one thought. Another thought is I'm generally leery of
Speaker 1: and like just anecdotal stuff. Okay, but in a case
Speaker 1: like this, I have so much anecdotal evidence gathered over
Speaker 1: such a long period of time where I'm able to
Speaker 1: rule out the inherent errors of self reporting. We're just
Speaker 1: from experiences and the experiences of people who I'm very
Speaker 1: close with and I understand their skill sets. Um, I,
Speaker 1: you haven't changed my opinion. I feel that if you
Speaker 1: take something like like you take something like ELK, Okay,
Speaker 1: take something like ELK. I think that there is a
Speaker 1: much higher rate of wound loss. And this is informed
Speaker 1: by personal opinion as well as opinion of many other people.
Speaker 1: There's a much higher rate of wound loss on ELK
Speaker 1: with archery equipment than there is the firearm equip equipment.
Speaker 1: It's like I've just I know, I just know as
Speaker 1: bad as that sounds, well, and I'm not telling you
Speaker 1: what to do with that. I'll not tell anybody what
Speaker 1: to do with that piece of information. But it's the thing.
Speaker 1: It's like a debate that comes up all the time.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. My part number three this and
Speaker 1: then then it's yours again. Part number three is we
Speaker 1: don't know the mortality question. Okay. At one time found
Speaker 1: I was out on a backpacking trip, well Lama backpacking,
Speaker 1: you know, backpacking with Lama trip in the summertime and
Speaker 1: the Idaho Panhandle, and I lost my spoon and found
Speaker 1: an elk carcass or elk skeleton, and was trying to
Speaker 1: figure out what bone would be most suitable to craft
Speaker 1: a new spoon out of that I could reach into
Speaker 1: a freeze dry bag with. And I started looking at
Speaker 1: the thoracic process on the vertebra, and I thought, damn,
Speaker 1: it looks like a great spoon. So I picked up
Speaker 1: one of the vertebra to be like the one they
Speaker 1: had the longest rascic process, So the one that's kind
Speaker 1: of like above the animals hump and lo and behold
Speaker 1: embedded within the bone. The bone entirely healed around it
Speaker 1: is a muzzy broadhead. Their slogan is bad to the bone.
Speaker 1: I put pictures of this up on We'll put a
Speaker 1: picture up in the show notes. But so here's the
Speaker 1: thing growing around it. Now, the guy that shot that
Speaker 1: arrow maybe would would probably be surprised to learn that
Speaker 1: that thing took the hit somehow. The arrow shaft unthreaded
Speaker 1: because it was just a naked broadhead, no piece of
Speaker 1: shaft on it unthreaded. The elk heeled around the broadhead.
Speaker 1: And I know that died in the winter because they
Speaker 1: had dropped it was it died with dropped andlers. So
Speaker 1: however long it takes to calcify, like to completely encase
Speaker 1: a broadhead and calcified bone on your vertebra, that guy
Speaker 1: might think, oh, he might be all depressed still about
Speaker 1: that bully killed and couldn't find when it wasn't dead.
Speaker 1: So that's the other thing is when we talk about
Speaker 1: wound loss, we're just saying, like, you didn't find it.
Speaker 1: But what we don't know is what's lethal and what's
Speaker 1: not lethal. So that matters to me. But what you
Speaker 1: just the story just told, isn't that a Pro Bowl?
Speaker 1: Pro Bowl? If you take a pro on kan No,
Speaker 1: don't look at it is either. I'm just saying. What
Speaker 1: I'm saying is in sussing out the answer which I'm
Speaker 1: interested what I was trying to build up there one
Speaker 1: is one. Nothing says can't change in my mind. That
Speaker 1: was playing one too. It doesn't really matter except for
Speaker 1: just it's good. I just like to know stuff I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna like go and make like like well,
Speaker 1: if I was like a ruler of the world and
Speaker 1: I had all the answers in front of me, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't like go and make a decision around except for
Speaker 1: except for in cases like, for instance, when you're there's
Speaker 1: some bare units in Alaska where when you wound a bear,
Speaker 1: you not your tag. That kind of thing I'm generally
Speaker 1: in favor of. I'm open to that and in favor
Speaker 1: of that in places you wound the animal, you're not
Speaker 1: your tag. But that leads again into point three, because
Speaker 1: that's under the assumption that you've removed an animal. And
Speaker 1: what we don't know in this is it's hard to tell.
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell it's hard to study the survival rates.
Speaker 1: So you fire an narrow what you get a hit.
Speaker 1: You trail the blood, there's no blood. You start cutting circles.
Speaker 1: You come back the next day, cut a million circles.
Speaker 1: Can't find blood. Your body can't find blood. He brings
Speaker 1: out his fail safe dog. The dog can't find anything. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a dead or not. So that was That was
Speaker 1: the part Three is like, you still don't know even
Speaker 1: when you know. And the thing I gonna say is
Speaker 1: that I fully agree with you on the idea that
Speaker 1: this is not a moral discussion. I've always The other
Speaker 1: thing I should have said too, I could have prefaced
Speaker 1: it with, is that we're the only predator with the conscience. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: We're the only predator that tries to make a science
Speaker 1: out of how we go about the stuff. We really
Speaker 1: try to figure out what's the best freaking way to
Speaker 1: kill that deer every damn time, you know, down dead.
Speaker 1: And because I think, well, when a hawk hits a rabbit,
Speaker 1: I've been on hawk hunts and it's pretty pretty fascinating.
Speaker 1: They're pretty good. But they have wounding loss. Brothers have
Speaker 1: wounding loss. So I will I will never get into
Speaker 1: this right or wrong discussion is I think that that
Speaker 1: means bullshit is part of the part of the equation.
Speaker 1: It's just I think hunting is we're the only ones
Speaker 1: that worry about it as humans. So but one of
Speaker 1: the things I'll say more thinking real quick, and then
Speaker 1: Doug say something because dogs dogs waiting to go here. Um.
Speaker 1: The thing I would say that about about the story
Speaker 1: with the errow wound. One thing that I think we
Speaker 1: can say from some of the research too, is that
Speaker 1: a deer that's wounded with a bow and arrow is
Speaker 1: much more likely to survive the wound, and and and
Speaker 1: go on. And it might not be it's not nice,
Speaker 1: it's not pleasant. I'm sure to carry a broad head
Speaker 1: around in your spinal column or and your shoulder blade
Speaker 1: or leg bones, yeah, I mean, but humans have done too.
Speaker 1: And so I'm saying Jim Bridger carried carried arrowhead around
Speaker 1: his back. I think about your dad. Your dad walked
Speaker 1: around how many years with pellets and his Yes, so
Speaker 1: it happens, and it's not I'm not excusing it, but
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, this stuff happens. And another story, remember
Speaker 1: um from Hunted on Duck's Place first time, you and
Speaker 1: I met was um Tyson having a bad shot on
Speaker 1: a deer. And it was a shot that if you
Speaker 1: made that shot with a bow and arrow, that deer
Speaker 1: would have been healed up and pry a couple of
Speaker 1: days and gone on never never look back. Whereas it was.
Speaker 1: It was a high hit in the back and the
Speaker 1: meat of the back. And I remember those hair everywhere
Speaker 1: on the impact area and Steve, yeah, never a good sign.
Speaker 1: And Steve went down, went after it and caught up
Speaker 1: with it and finished it off. And so I think
Speaker 1: if you look at that way. One of the things
Speaker 1: that came out of that that UM Naval Naval Station,
Speaker 1: Naval Weapons Station and study with the born arrow is
Speaker 1: that they figured that the deer that were they knew
Speaker 1: weren't recovered, then their wounded but not recovered was bought.
Speaker 1: They figured about six percent of those went on to
Speaker 1: have normal lives and just continued on with her six
Speaker 1: six percent of the deer that that that they could
Speaker 1: not recover the newer hit but not recovered. And then
Speaker 1: they compared that with um the deer are hit by
Speaker 1: motor vehicles on that base, and that was more like
Speaker 1: an eleven percent. UM died whereas my six percent of
Speaker 1: the born arrow ones died or that go ahead, six,
Speaker 1: I think I have gotten that reversed. I think reverse
Speaker 1: put on basically more you're more deer, more like to
Speaker 1: die when they're hit by a car than they were
Speaker 1: by a bow and arrow when they were all you know,
Speaker 1: in the row and moving around that it was only
Speaker 1: like six percent of the ones that were hit by
Speaker 1: bow and arrow died and love and percent hit by
Speaker 1: cars died. Yeah, So I think I got right now, Um,
Speaker 1: all the ones that were hit but not recovered, other
Speaker 1: ones that are still ones that were probably definitely ones
Speaker 1: that were hit not recovered and died from the wound.
Speaker 1: But that happens to you raise your hand about man,
Speaker 1: There's so many things, and it was the first one
Speaker 1: is well, we know guns kill more. Is a more
Speaker 1: effective way of killing deer than bows are maybe not
Speaker 1: well yeah, on an individual basis, because we kill way
Speaker 1: more deer in a much shorter time way, more people
Speaker 1: doing it, yeah, more more people doing it in greater range,
Speaker 1: and more shots. Uh. Well, um, I know you're right
Speaker 1: about dear um going on with arrows, and because over
Speaker 1: the years I've killed at least a half a dozen
Speaker 1: of the rifle that are carrying a that I've got
Speaker 1: a wound from a bow or have an arrow in
Speaker 1: them or whatever. Um, And those were I guess those
Speaker 1: were that. There was another point, but I don't remember
Speaker 1: what it was now because you went off on another
Speaker 1: thing that that it was trailing. No. Yeah, well of
Speaker 1: course it was your fault. Uh oh, I know what
Speaker 1: it was. It's interesting to me, uh the comparison. One
Speaker 1: of the things about bows and you're talking about vertical bows.
Speaker 1: I think because one of the arguments now that I'm
Speaker 1: hearing against crossbows from some vertical bow people is these
Speaker 1: guys are taking shots that they shouldn't take and their
Speaker 1: wounded deer and it's sort of like the opposite argument
Speaker 1: of gone you know some gone hunters um and and
Speaker 1: vertical bows, you know, wounding and um and that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. So it's just it's it's just interesting how
Speaker 1: all these things, to me, you know, melt together and
Speaker 1: then you make your own choices on it. And I'm
Speaker 1: that that cross bowl lingo now to say vertical bows, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the cross vertical sure, because in Wisconsin to keep
Speaker 1: fighting about it, so they kind of find a way
Speaker 1: to distinguish the two. So they would say bows and
Speaker 1: cross bows vertical bows come on, Doug crossbow, vertical bow,
Speaker 1: and and it's a it's a thing. I just feel
Speaker 1: that that word came from the crossbow community. It didn't
Speaker 1: come from the bow community. No, it's from a clarific
Speaker 1: well yeah, I don't know whither, but it just it is.
Speaker 1: It's important to clarify because otherwise, yeah, bow bow, right,
Speaker 1: but a bow versus across I mean a crossbows a bowl.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's not that yeah, podcast yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: the thing I think i'd say there too though in
Speaker 1: the in the some Naval Weapons Station research they looked
Speaker 1: at crossbows too, and it wasn't I think. I think
Speaker 1: they actually they came out a little bit better on that.
Speaker 1: And one of the more fast thing parts of that
Speaker 1: study was that the UM expandable broad has actually performed
Speaker 1: better than the standard UM injection or you know where
Speaker 1: you put your blades and like fixed blade, Well then
Speaker 1: I've totally your fixed plade because fixed blade my mind
Speaker 1: is still the ones you're sharpen yourself. Replaceabule blades, yeah,
Speaker 1: have replace full blades. I still like replaceable blades because
Speaker 1: I don't like the the questioning and the worrying about,
Speaker 1: well that thing open the way it's supposed to. But
Speaker 1: in the study that did in Maryland that those actually
Speaker 1: came out came up better for um, more more effective overall,
Speaker 1: expandable expandables did. And I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that I know. That's one of the things they
Speaker 1: say about shooting the crossbow is to use an expandable blade. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then then you get into a make sure they
Speaker 1: don't fly open when they get shot down in the
Speaker 1: bowl because it's such an explosion coming all those things
Speaker 1: compared to irregular bowl. But um, just the air resistance
Speaker 1: well if plus it's such a hard impact coming out,
Speaker 1: like those are hundred sixty five pound of you know
Speaker 1: draw weights are she those those arrows out so um
Speaker 1: but see like and seeing like getting back to the
Speaker 1: elk point of view, that's where you and I still
Speaker 1: want a greekause I think, well, I've seen guys out
Speaker 1: in the west is real flyers on elk you know,
Speaker 1: long Helvish long ways, and I think you started to
Speaker 1: change my mind. Damn with those guys. They're hitting these
Speaker 1: big these these are big animals and they can God,
Speaker 1: they can take a polling and nunny and show you know.
Speaker 1: And but you know, I like the fact that, at
Speaker 1: least in our modern era of hunting, that we're talking
Speaker 1: about these things and trying to figure out what's what's ethical,
Speaker 1: what's an ethical shot? And one of the things I
Speaker 1: had fun though that Deering Deering magazine back the nineties,
Speaker 1: we actually did a poll on this, trying to figure
Speaker 1: out from our readers, you know, what's what's um an
Speaker 1: effective range for the bow and arrow in your mind?
Speaker 1: What what's what do you feel comfortable shooting at? And
Speaker 1: the thing that was always interesting was that everyone's just
Speaker 1: perfectly conscientious ethical hunter. When that deer is at less
Speaker 1: than forty yards of the bow and arrow and less
Speaker 1: than let's say yards of the rifle, she just started
Speaker 1: putting the big antlers on him, the leads in the
Speaker 1: air problem. And so I always think, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I brought a couple of quotes here that where we
Speaker 1: like to think for making progress in our our approach
Speaker 1: on i'll be you know, on shot selection. And you know,
Speaker 1: Steve Steele Prian know this one who who wrote this.
Speaker 1: It is a good rule always to try to get
Speaker 1: as near the game as possible. At the same time,
Speaker 1: I am a great believer in Poulter burning, and if
Speaker 1: I cannot get near, I will generally try a shot anyhow,
Speaker 1: if there's any chance the rifle curing it to it.
Speaker 1: Janny O'Connor anyone. I guess Leopold, but not Leopold. I
Speaker 1: got I got. I got that one too. That's my
Speaker 1: next quote. Who would be left? I don't know, elmur Keith,
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt big believer in powder burns hot.
Speaker 1: But he was from that. He was from that well
Speaker 1: was of just getting the let out and the idea
Speaker 1: that well, if you don't shoot, you certainly won't get it.
Speaker 1: Horn Today too when you read about horn Today's expeditions,
Speaker 1: because when he's doing museum collecting still he's like he's
Speaker 1: museum collecting, but they would just kind of get where
Speaker 1: they're in the ballpark and everybody just starts a cracking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's something to be said, I think right now in
Speaker 1: this conversation about the sake of being of getting close
Speaker 1: to just being a percent on your shot, not because
Speaker 1: of the ethics, but because you want to be efficient
Speaker 1: and just be a good hunter, and even though there's
Speaker 1: like say giant antlers, right, but if you're a poor hunter,
Speaker 1: that's I think when you're like, I'm gonna let him
Speaker 1: fly because this is my one opportunity. I think if
Speaker 1: you've achieved a certain level of hunting prowess, you will
Speaker 1: say it is too far. Either I will get closer
Speaker 1: now so that I know a percent when I shoot,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill that thing, or I will let it
Speaker 1: back walk and I will return tomorrow and you know,
Speaker 1: change my position, my tactics or whatever to get closer.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I think, And there's a
Speaker 1: certain point where hunters, you know, don't just let lead
Speaker 1: fly because you know whatever ethics out the window. Like
Speaker 1: you said, we're the only ones to think about that.
Speaker 1: If you're just trying to be like the best hunter
Speaker 1: out there, at some point you're just gonna say no
Speaker 1: to be successful, I can't shoot right now. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think there's there's an element of ethics, there's an element
Speaker 1: of aesthetics, there's an element of pragmatism being then uh,
Speaker 1: I would like, yeah, if I like to think that
Speaker 1: it bothers most people that you would cripple some umping
Speaker 1: up and not find it, so you want to be
Speaker 1: eliminating that. Um, any self respecting person right wants to
Speaker 1: be good at what they do, and they put their
Speaker 1: mind to something and become good at it. A strong
Speaker 1: mark or of you not being good at it is
Speaker 1: that you wound stuff and it runs off when you're
Speaker 1: supposed to be killing it. And then pragmatism is like,
Speaker 1: you want to get the thing. So if you're looking
Speaker 1: at man, I could take a poke at five yards
Speaker 1: of my rifle. I don't know if I'll get it
Speaker 1: or not. Um, I'm gonna get to where I know
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get this thing, and I know damn sure
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill it it too. But it takes a
Speaker 1: level of experience to be able to in that moment
Speaker 1: make that decision, make all those decisions. I think when
Speaker 1: people let the flyers go, when people to start blouching
Speaker 1: for no reason, is when uh, they probably can't see
Speaker 1: their way through to getting closer. Maybe perhaps well another
Speaker 1: quote I wanted to share with you guys. Um, this
Speaker 1: is from but the same era a little bit later.
Speaker 1: But one large white tail looked at me at seventy yards.
Speaker 1: He jumped at the flesh of my bowl, my arrow
Speaker 1: stuck in the ground on a second jump. If he
Speaker 1: had stood still, I would have hit him in the neck.
Speaker 1: This is this is written Leopold. Yeah, seventy yards seven yards.
Speaker 1: He took a poke at a hundred yards yeah, and
Speaker 1: so like that archery well see, and so that's that's
Speaker 1: the thing I I'm not. I'm not taking cheap shots
Speaker 1: at these two guys because I think we had these
Speaker 1: discussions on all the host and I've talked about in
Speaker 1: Doug's backyard. Um, I know they're a guy. I know
Speaker 1: my my kickabilities. I know at sixty yards of bow
Speaker 1: and arrow, I start falling apart. Some days I'll be
Speaker 1: out there. I can drop him in pretty nice at
Speaker 1: sixty yards. Next day I can't. So I know that's
Speaker 1: not for me a realistic range. But I do know
Speaker 1: guys who can time in and time out nail a
Speaker 1: hundred yards shots the bow and arrow. But I still
Speaker 1: will always say you're still coming on that dear to
Speaker 1: be stand there and assuming if a wide open shot,
Speaker 1: well that aero arcs and like I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is on a compound bow today is shooting a
Speaker 1: seventy five pounding cross compound bowl. But I do know
Speaker 1: on the cross bowl I saw it there to day,
Speaker 1: were at a hundred yards. A typical cross bowl has
Speaker 1: to arc at above the site plane to drop it
Speaker 1: into the hundred yards. Not think this guy is making
Speaker 1: a his Aultland just claims about how accurate those cross
Speaker 1: bowls are. I think, I don't know. I just have
Speaker 1: a hard time believing most guys using the cross bowl
Speaker 1: can get those kind of shots to drop in there,
Speaker 1: and and and learned really quickly that's not realistic, because
Speaker 1: I think we Steve and I had a little conversation,
Speaker 1: just a quick question. I think Steve got back to
Speaker 1: me out. But I get I get fascinated with lk
Speaker 1: hunting because I think I when I've been elkinning, I
Speaker 1: can see where you'd have more winning loss than what
Speaker 1: I have gotten used to hunting deer from a tree
Speaker 1: stand because hunting deer from a tree standard typically getting
Speaker 1: them in their tight quarters. And I think nothing, very
Speaker 1: very few things I've ever killed go down faster than
Speaker 1: I h a broad head through the lungs at twenty yards.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just deadly effective. But I think when
Speaker 1: I started elk hunting back in two thousand five. With
Speaker 1: the ball and arrow, nothing is nothing is fixed. You know,
Speaker 1: you get used that tree stand situation where you can
Speaker 1: control your shots, and control with that rena shoot all
Speaker 1: those kind of things. You can start controlling a little bit.
Speaker 1: These through discipline. Doesn't happen with all hunting. It's happening fast.
Speaker 1: You're you're on your ground, you're at eye level, wind changes,
Speaker 1: there's everything is. This is making changes fast. And I
Speaker 1: realized this is tough ship. This is a lot harder
Speaker 1: than anything I've ever done in the white tail woods.
Speaker 1: That's where I start thinking. I last year I killed
Speaker 1: my first from a tree stand and I and I
Speaker 1: almost felt like cheating because it was so much easier
Speaker 1: to control that shot than that was when I was
Speaker 1: on the ground at eye level trying to pick a
Speaker 1: spot to the brush on an animal that you're waiting
Speaker 1: for the coming to a spot where you can stop
Speaker 1: it quick, get the shot off. I think, what were
Speaker 1: you set up on? I was on a wallow early seasons,
Speaker 1: like the fourth day of the season is Labor Day
Speaker 1: weekend National Forest. Yeah, And and that got me thinking though,
Speaker 1: that what time that bull show up? I think I
Speaker 1: shot him around six o'clock and evening, six o'clock evening
Speaker 1: came in the wall. Ye, he just stood there perfectly, um,
Speaker 1: not quite broadside, but he has turned a little bit,
Speaker 1: give me a perfect right down the pipe, you know.
Speaker 1: And then and then he he jumped up, went up
Speaker 1: the hill about forty yards and down was that wallow.
Speaker 1: When he found that wallow wasn't muddied up, um a
Speaker 1: little bit, but was interesting. This is one of the
Speaker 1: fastest things I loved about that experience was that he
Speaker 1: never actually made to the wallow itself. He stopped me
Speaker 1: in fifteen years of pill and this little just muddy,
Speaker 1: little bitty seepage type stuff coming up, and he sat
Speaker 1: through those nose right down the mud and you can
Speaker 1: just hear them sucking the water out there, a little
Speaker 1: little bitty rivulets coming down that mountain side, and it
Speaker 1: was just fastening as hell. And then he just stand
Speaker 1: and look around and his face me the whole time.
Speaker 1: And finally he has turned a little bit game the open,
Speaker 1: you know, side shot and I but compared to hunting
Speaker 1: off the ground, I said, almost felt like God. And
Speaker 1: then I actually had guys, Well, yeah, here's the problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: go ahead, there is no problem because it might have
Speaker 1: felt easy, but look at the mana. I mean, you
Speaker 1: did a good bit of woodsmanship to get in the situation.
Speaker 1: Definitely went out identified an active wallow. Make no mistake,
Speaker 1: I do not feel guilty. I mean, I mean I
Speaker 1: say that, I say it felt like, oh jeez, that
Speaker 1: was so easy. But but I know, damn well it wasn't,
Speaker 1: because that was like twelve years in the making, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, to get that where I actually foster, but
Speaker 1: you could actually feel confident putting a tree stand up
Speaker 1: and going to trouble putting a tree stand up on
Speaker 1: this area we hunt. It's kind of I didn't didn't
Speaker 1: think about in most cases, just such a waste of time.
Speaker 1: You know, elk are so unpredictable to moving here and
Speaker 1: there and pure he found one. Oh you'll see nothing.
Speaker 1: It's like this. You know, it's possible there's no elk
Speaker 1: within two miles, yeah, three miles. And and so I
Speaker 1: just find all those kind of discussions of a shot selection,
Speaker 1: how you do set up so that kind of stuff interesting,
Speaker 1: and then I get then you get into the thing
Speaker 1: you're talking about with like that that bowl walking around
Speaker 1: with the arrow wound you think, well, was he really
Speaker 1: suffering the whole time or not? I mean that thing
Speaker 1: wound heal over and how much? I mean, I can't
Speaker 1: feel good. But then you read some of the researchman's
Speaker 1: done on humans and how humans react, you know, like
Speaker 1: soldiers in battle, and there's just some really fastening research
Speaker 1: from Anzio or your dad served where they this doctor
Speaker 1: was keeping notes on these guys that were wounded, you know,
Speaker 1: how much how much pain are you in? And they
Speaker 1: found a lot cases that, um, excuse me, these guys
Speaker 1: had just awful wounds and they barely felt it because
Speaker 1: it wasn't a shock because he could talk to these guys,
Speaker 1: ask them, what are you feeling doing this kind of stuff?
Speaker 1: But it was not the kind of bad pain that
Speaker 1: you'd expect. And then um, they learned too that snize
Speaker 1: guys who were mad at who just just wild with
Speaker 1: um apparent pain they could come down with with a
Speaker 1: with a drug to make them sleepy basically, and and
Speaker 1: what that's what they started to I started to think
Speaker 1: and figure out what it wasn't so much the pain
Speaker 1: that was was hard on these guys. It was the anguish,
Speaker 1: the thread that what they're like, you know, the Clint
Speaker 1: Eastwood movie. Um, young forgiven. You know, a hell of
Speaker 1: a thing killing man, You're taking way all of your
Speaker 1: head and all even will have. And humans understand that,
Speaker 1: you know, they're eighteen years old, knowing that this is
Speaker 1: probably gona kill them, and they're just it has to
Speaker 1: be just devastating to them. So that's where I always
Speaker 1: trying to balance all the stuff as I'm hunting, thinking,
Speaker 1: let's not let's not tire ourselves some knots over this.
Speaker 1: You know, we want to be good, ealthical hunters, but
Speaker 1: let's realize that the wilds is a tough place to
Speaker 1: live and these animals suffer loss stuff that, you know,
Speaker 1: but humans due too, humans awful tough too. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, I find a lot of stuff that fascinating.
Speaker 1: Pick up the tree stand thing because you later had
Speaker 1: an interaction with someone about your tree STANDLK. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I so I. One of the reasons I emailed Steve was, um,
Speaker 1: this guy um writes back to me, and he actually
Speaker 1: says to me he tried to make feel a little
Speaker 1: bit guilty about using a tree stand to kill an elk.
Speaker 1: And he says to me, well, what do you think
Speaker 1: Steve Rinella would think, and I don't know well, but
Speaker 1: but my first reaction was, well, I don't claim to
Speaker 1: know Steve as well as I know um other friends
Speaker 1: in my life. But I think Renal strikes me as
Speaker 1: a practical guy that if you put your time in
Speaker 1: and you find a find a good spot and you
Speaker 1: I'll hunt it that way, go for it. Yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: I'm my brother has he's got an idea of the
Speaker 1: Hunt Purity Score. Okay, So it allows like, uh, it
Speaker 1: allows you to to have many to to to factor
Speaker 1: in many different variables just to then arrive at a
Speaker 1: fixed score. And you can have twenty inputs and do
Speaker 1: a Hunt Purity score. So when I run your situation
Speaker 1: through my hunt, my personal Hunt Purity Score calculator unguided. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you're just out there, dude, out there on his own,
Speaker 1: not relying on a guide because you have a guy
Speaker 1: to like, Oh, yeah, I killed it. We bagle to
Speaker 1: bowl in and shot him. But the guy did everything
Speaker 1: and he probably have shot the thing better than you
Speaker 1: did too. You were, if anything, you were a hindrance
Speaker 1: on the whole process. Right, there was a trigger man.
Speaker 1: So that's not the ace Okay, not that you can't.
Speaker 1: Still you could have a guy and still score a
Speaker 1: great hunt purity scored as you put in all the
Speaker 1: factors that go into a hunt purity score. A right,
Speaker 1: it's not it's like just one of what what's your problem?
Speaker 1: Do you give me the Latvian smirk? No, I'm just
Speaker 1: enjoying this score, if there was such a thing, So
Speaker 1: and each each and each to his own right. So
Speaker 1: when I'm running Pat Durkins, when I'm when I'm giving
Speaker 1: a hunt purity score to Pat Durkins, tree stand out come.
Speaker 1: This is what I'm thinking about self guided public land,
Speaker 1: public land. Not that you can't have a great hunt
Speaker 1: purity scoring in private land. Done a lot of it myself,
Speaker 1: But in the Hunt Purity score calculator that scores high
Speaker 1: because here you are dealing with a lot of competition,
Speaker 1: things outside of your control. So it's it's like an
Speaker 1: added difficulty, right, Um, a little bit of woodsmanship. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of wabbles, I'll there. There are more wallows
Speaker 1: out there that are not going to be visited by
Speaker 1: a bull tonight than there are wallows. What the hell
Speaker 1: you've smirked about, Doug Man? I feel like you need
Speaker 1: to keep my face down and us there are more wallows.
Speaker 1: There are more walls in the woods that what was
Speaker 1: the date he killed bull, September? September four, Okay, there
Speaker 1: are more September four. Go to the state Pat was
Speaker 1: in and go have a monitor, get a volunteer to
Speaker 1: sit on every single wallow in that state, and more
Speaker 1: than than than there's gonna be more people whose wallow
Speaker 1: doesn't get hit by an elk that night than does. Definitely,
Speaker 1: So he had to pick the pick the right wallow.
Speaker 1: Here he is self guided in a place you hunted
Speaker 1: a little bit, finds a wallow, determined that this is
Speaker 1: the this is where I'm gonna stake my claim. Presumably
Speaker 1: you had to tote that tree stand through a lot
Speaker 1: of uncomfortable to areas on a hot day. So there's
Speaker 1: your hunt purity score climbs up. Now you had to
Speaker 1: pick where you're gonna hang this stand factor and in wind,
Speaker 1: not just wind, but how the wind is going to
Speaker 1: change as the thermal shift, as the air starts to cool,
Speaker 1: as the sun begins to set. So Pats running all
Speaker 1: this ship in his head as his hunt purity score climbs,
Speaker 1: like I just like nowhere in it. There's nowhere in
Speaker 1: it where I'm looking. I'm like, man, that's a real shrinker,
Speaker 1: a real hunt purity score shrinker. The bow and arrow
Speaker 1: gives it a higher hunt purity score, and my personal
Speaker 1: estimation that gives it a higher hunt purity score than
Speaker 1: if it were versus a higher hunt when he made
Speaker 1: your own arrows and napt your own heads, higher hunt
Speaker 1: purity score, many things. Going to a hut you could have.
Speaker 1: You could make your own bow, make your own string,
Speaker 1: make your own arrow shafts, nap your own head. You
Speaker 1: are you make your own hunting clothes, find a road
Speaker 1: kill turkey, make your own fletching, and still have a
Speaker 1: real low hunt purity score depending on the other inputs.
Speaker 1: So that in and of itself, right, But like the
Speaker 1: hunt you're describing to me is has is very pure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like the sounds of it. Thank you, so we ourselves.
Speaker 1: It was a great story to read too. I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed those those columns about it. Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 1: And and you kept your nerves because you know what,
Speaker 1: Oftentimes when something's coming in you don't get calmer, No,
Speaker 1: not especially not. Sometimes it's almost beneficial to have something
Speaker 1: happened fast. And this one actually played over about five minutes.
Speaker 1: Where he came in, I thought I was gon nail
Speaker 1: him right away, and then he came in, came right
Speaker 1: too many straight on shooting turns and walks right street
Speaker 1: at me, and then I had let down twice. And
Speaker 1: it's just a fun experience. You know, everything I factor in.
Speaker 1: A lot of people probably don't, but I do. Whether
Speaker 1: it was aware of you or not, Yeah, he had
Speaker 1: no ideas there. That counts a lot in my personal
Speaker 1: hunt periody calculator set up. I'm interested about the tree
Speaker 1: stands set up relative to the wall of downhill because
Speaker 1: you're playing a downhill thermal. No, you know, I I
Speaker 1: looked into everything around that figure out where where I
Speaker 1: could put up a stand and have a decent chance,
Speaker 1: and I end up having to go up a pill
Speaker 1: from that wall, and knowing that as the thermal start dropping,
Speaker 1: if anything's coming down from blow, I'm not gonna have
Speaker 1: a chance. It'll just be going down. And that was
Speaker 1: my fear, is that yes, they come from down hill
Speaker 1: where I think they come from most likely, or all
Speaker 1: I could hope is be up on the sidehill more
Speaker 1: or across the way more and filter through that area.
Speaker 1: But the thing is too, I sometimes I when I'm
Speaker 1: hunting white tails too, snow situations, you can't always predict
Speaker 1: for there to come from. You think you can, but
Speaker 1: then and then case the bull came exactly from where
Speaker 1: I did not expect him. He was uphill from me,
Speaker 1: and I heard a twig snap and then he look
Speaker 1: up and here's this bull ship. There's a bull. And
Speaker 1: I haven't had book fever like that in a long time,
Speaker 1: where even though I've been el cunning a lot and
Speaker 1: had a lot of vin corners, that one that's really
Speaker 1: had me jacked up. And then by the time I
Speaker 1: got right, I could shoot. Though I was, I wasn't calm.
Speaker 1: I mean that hurts till hammering, but it was. I
Speaker 1: will always make a point like a trade show, as
Speaker 1: if I see like um I've seen like Tiffany Lakowski
Speaker 1: makes some hell of hell of good shots on Dear
Speaker 1: Cariboo and elk and I walked up to me one
Speaker 1: time and I said, you know, I know you take
Speaker 1: a lot of ship from people because you know, she's
Speaker 1: a pretty young, pretty girl, blonde girl. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: she um comes across dits it to some people. But
Speaker 1: you watch some of the shots that girls made on TV,
Speaker 1: and I think that girl's got some blood, some real
Speaker 1: ice veins where because I've seen guys blow those kind
Speaker 1: of shots. Yeah, And I so I respect that because
Speaker 1: I think that the pull off a show like that,
Speaker 1: especially the camera over your back and along with on
Speaker 1: on you know, basically what's what's at stake here and
Speaker 1: you're on make a big investment on hunt likes that
Speaker 1: and the time involved then you pulled off. I mean
Speaker 1: that's commendable. I respect that because I know I've I've
Speaker 1: blown those kind of shots. I mean who hasn't. And
Speaker 1: so anyway, so like I made that shot that night
Speaker 1: and that boll piled up, like you know, forty yards away.
Speaker 1: I watched the whole thing. Damn. I felt good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and those kind of moments just you know, I think
Speaker 1: that's why we're out here and I'll never That's why
Speaker 1: I said that. I made the comment that I um
Speaker 1: felt a little guiltycause it seems so easy. But I
Speaker 1: think it's not really guilty, just that you know, it's
Speaker 1: not really easy. You know, you know better, you know
Speaker 1: how hard to get those shots and no get those
Speaker 1: situations that work out and how many situations don't work out?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, when you're out there just getting ground down
Speaker 1: by this stuations that don't work out. When something does
Speaker 1: work really good, it's almost like you feel like you've
Speaker 1: stepped into like you walked into a hallucination, that you're
Speaker 1: hallucinating that it worked. It's that surprising you, Like I
Speaker 1: actually just got close to that elk and ran an
Speaker 1: arrow through its lungs and it fell over dead. It's
Speaker 1: more plausible that I'm hallucinating right now than that just happened. Um,
Speaker 1: we've been talking about thermals. I want to explain it
Speaker 1: because I feel like some people might not get we're
Speaker 1: talking about so when you're thribles happen when you're in it.
Speaker 1: I mean you can, you can have thermals without topography,
Speaker 1: but I think you kind of bank on and in
Speaker 1: mountainous country is that you know, warm air rises. So
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you this, pound just telling Joe blow out. There.
Speaker 1: Warm air rises. So in the morning, when the sun
Speaker 1: starts to come up and the day starts to heat up,
Speaker 1: you're generally gonna wind up having uphill winds. And then
Speaker 1: in the evening, the sunsets and the air cools you're
Speaker 1: gonna have, you know, it's gonna switch. Sometimes we will
Speaker 1: get set up where we're gonna do a stock on
Speaker 1: an animal, and you'll just sit around and wait, depending
Speaker 1: on where it is and the best approach, you'll sit
Speaker 1: around and wait for when the thermal shift, because you'll
Speaker 1: know that at some point today. I know that like
Speaker 1: at whatever time, you know, whatever time it happened the
Speaker 1: night before or whenever the evening sets on, that the
Speaker 1: wind's gonna shift, possibly to the point that it overrides
Speaker 1: the normal predominant wind direction. But sometimes you just have
Speaker 1: like so much wind, if there's a weather pattern moving
Speaker 1: through or whatever, you can have so much wind that
Speaker 1: that sort of natural wind, not natural less with the
Speaker 1: right word for it, but just that that general wind
Speaker 1: direction conspires with the thermals to just make swirling air,
Speaker 1: which is very frustrating when it's not up or down.
Speaker 1: It's just everywhere we live and die had by the thermals.
Speaker 1: When I got it in Colorado and a particular spot
Speaker 1: which was kind of a good example of the morning
Speaker 1: hunt because in the morning to usually have a downhill thermal,
Speaker 1: you know, just because it's like, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: the coldest rite at sunrise or whatever, thirty minutes before sunrise,
Speaker 1: it's you know, the coldest part maybe, So you got
Speaker 1: that downhill thermal. But we had this knob that you
Speaker 1: could kind of sit on, and it was I don't know,
Speaker 1: at least a thousand feet down to this hay field,
Speaker 1: and these elk would be out in this hay field,
Speaker 1: you know, and we actually couldn't hunt out there, so
Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons we hadn't just you know,
Speaker 1: gone and ambushed him down there. But they would be
Speaker 1: coming towards us, you know, as it got light and
Speaker 1: coming up onto that hill. But thermals like right at
Speaker 1: your back, so you have to sit there and wait
Speaker 1: and wait and wait and wait and wait, and they'd
Speaker 1: be screaming and ripping, and you're just like sitting there
Speaker 1: with your puffer just watching it, watching it and just
Speaker 1: hoping for the day to warm up before they quit muglin.
Speaker 1: And so many times, I mean you'd wait sometimes still
Speaker 1: eight thirty nine, I mean, even sitting up there for
Speaker 1: two plus hours, and then finally you just like you
Speaker 1: start feeling that constant you know, uphill thermal, and we
Speaker 1: would just bail off that hill, you know, trying not
Speaker 1: to break a leg as we ran down in there,
Speaker 1: you know, and then we'll start calling. But you mentioned
Speaker 1: that some place that have so much wind that when
Speaker 1: I went to the guy in North Park for a year,
Speaker 1: it's just a windy part of Colorado, like up there
Speaker 1: by Walden. And I remember like halfway through the elk
Speaker 1: season being like, I seriously haven't used my wind chapter
Speaker 1: or thought about a thermal for a month because it
Speaker 1: was just constant, like every day You're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: the winds out of the east. It's gonna be out
Speaker 1: of the east all day. You know. We never thought
Speaker 1: about thermal's there. I'll tell another good thermal's trick is
Speaker 1: a creek. Well, you know, a creek one of the
Speaker 1: daytime cool the air above it, and you could have
Speaker 1: a wind direction going some direction or another. You dropped
Speaker 1: down into a creek bed and you'll find that it's
Speaker 1: a down wind that there's a strong down wind current
Speaker 1: created by that water. And you can creep up creek
Speaker 1: beds or streams that are flowing and be the whole
Speaker 1: time in nose hitting you like wind hitting you in
Speaker 1: the face as you go upstream, even though the wind
Speaker 1: is different, hunted yards up the hill. I was once
Speaker 1: creeping up a creek on the north side of it
Speaker 1: in the timber, probably a foot to eighteen inches of snow,
Speaker 1: powdery snow salent as convening. I'm probably fifty yards above
Speaker 1: the bottom of the creek and we're trying to catch
Speaker 1: up these elk there feeding in the quakies on the
Speaker 1: south facing slope, pretty narrow canyon, and we're working our
Speaker 1: way up and we get to the elk. We get
Speaker 1: all the way so we're exactly um, you know, parallel
Speaker 1: to them, and I'm feeling the wind and got just
Speaker 1: a nice downhill thermal and we're just like there's no
Speaker 1: clear shots, but just like twenty cows uf there and
Speaker 1: we're just waiting for a good shot. And all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, I see a couple of noses pop up,
Speaker 1: you know. I'm like, what, there's no way, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it is like we're freezing here. I can
Speaker 1: just feel it going down towards the creek, and eventually
Speaker 1: they bust. Three years later, but I think we killed
Speaker 1: a cow. But I think what actually happen is that
Speaker 1: the third will came down, pushed our scent to the
Speaker 1: creek bottom, and then instead of just keeping flowing down
Speaker 1: the creek, it must have just gotten onto that warm
Speaker 1: hillside and the sun was hitting the south face, and
Speaker 1: and it carried it up right to him. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: you will sometimes have stuff with you or you just
Speaker 1: can't understand how it with you, and it's yeah, stuff
Speaker 1: like that probably and even argues, well, I'll be like
Speaker 1: who moved? Who moved? Someone moved the spot I still
Speaker 1: have done were like Bob full Cross, you student demonstrations
Speaker 1: with with air currents where you use a smoke bomb
Speaker 1: and you know to shoal when you think it's going
Speaker 1: this way, like, well it goes that way for a while,
Speaker 1: and then it just churched, moving moving off again. Hard
Speaker 1: hard to play that stuff. Pet, tell me why the
Speaker 1: old time traditional deer camps are disappearing. That's been one
Speaker 1: that I've you know, being the settlement of sap I am.
Speaker 1: I always think that's how how deer hunting should be.
Speaker 1: Were you pulling into a camp for basically the whole
Speaker 1: nine day season like they used to do. You know
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin used to take trains up north and what's
Speaker 1: happened is that, um, we made travel. I think a
Speaker 1: big factors. There's many factors, of course, but one of
Speaker 1: the big factors is that travel is so convenient. You
Speaker 1: can now hop in your car anywhere in Wisconsin, basically
Speaker 1: up north in five hours, and then you can be
Speaker 1: back home Sunday evening really easily. It's not not a
Speaker 1: big trip anymore. Even when I was a kid in
Speaker 1: the seventies going deer hunting, Wohane highways going north and
Speaker 1: Wisconsin we're all two lane highways, and so the trip
Speaker 1: up north was it was kind of endurance thing. You
Speaker 1: just kind of staying right along and those two lane highways,
Speaker 1: waiting to pass people all time, and just so when
Speaker 1: you got up there, you're in no hurry to come back.
Speaker 1: You want to stay up there. And you think, well,
Speaker 1: if that's how it was in the seventies, can you
Speaker 1: imagine what it was like back in the fourties and
Speaker 1: fifties where guys would have to drive up there and
Speaker 1: not always be able to even get down in the
Speaker 1: road to their camp. You know, they had to get
Speaker 1: neighbor to get a tractor and take them down and
Speaker 1: haul them in. And so I think that's a big
Speaker 1: factor that you know, in our our society we have
Speaker 1: now with a great transportation, really reliable vehicles, people just
Speaker 1: don't have to go and spend that kind of time
Speaker 1: in the camp. And then you have the other factors
Speaker 1: going on in recent decades, is that, well, the old
Speaker 1: guys um it was worth going up north in northern Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: othern Michigan and in the Minnesota because uh, there's a
Speaker 1: good deer hunting. It was gotten tougher. You know, the
Speaker 1: forest matured, and we have always factors like that. We're
Speaker 1: you know that things made dear. And then we'll look
Speaker 1: at the case of our very own dog, Dere exactly, Doug,
Speaker 1: when when when correct me? If I'm wrong, Doug, you
Speaker 1: certainly will. Dog was a boy, his old man went
Speaker 1: to northern deer camp. That's right around the farm. If
Speaker 1: you saw a deer, you talked about it. That's right,
Speaker 1: You're like, holy ship, we saw a deer, and everyone
Speaker 1: for deer season drove up. Now you got how many
Speaker 1: deer for square whatever more than for square mile of habitat,
Speaker 1: and how and what's the what's the what's the stocking
Speaker 1: or the ratio of deer per unit of land in
Speaker 1: the north was much lower. Yeah, I mean, so the
Speaker 1: deer came to you. You don't need to go to
Speaker 1: the deer. I'm a deer magnet. Lost to me. You
Speaker 1: guys were done at Dougs in two thousand and fifteen.
Speaker 1: I think it was right gun season. Um. I killed
Speaker 1: a nice buck that year, done about ten miles from
Speaker 1: Doug's place and my uncle's farm. And the only reason
Speaker 1: I'm telling that is because when I drove over to
Speaker 1: the text or to get get um that the lymphing
Speaker 1: was taken out for the CWD testing, I missed the turn,
Speaker 1: couldn't find the place, and I stopped a hunter on
Speaker 1: the road who was just getting ready to walk down
Speaker 1: into this field. I got talking to him. Well, he's
Speaker 1: from Hayward, Wisconsin, which is way up north. And the
Speaker 1: reason he's done in Doug's backyard basically because the deer
Speaker 1: hunting up in Hayward sucks all the way. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: the hunt of public piece of property over in the
Speaker 1: Bear Valley. Uh. And and then that's what's happened, you know,
Speaker 1: between that switching the habitat where the habitat don install
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin favors a deer more than up north, and
Speaker 1: you have it's it's you know, the guys you still
Speaker 1: hunt up there, they typically aren't going in for um
Speaker 1: five days. Thanksgiving used to be a real thing where
Speaker 1: you'd go up there and you arrive our Friday before
Speaker 1: a gun season, set up camp and you won't come
Speaker 1: back till the following weekend or Sunday night. And people
Speaker 1: are logging the north with much much more logging, much
Speaker 1: more logging back then. Now the logging isn't isn't keeping
Speaker 1: up with the forest maturations. So the forests keep getting
Speaker 1: older and older and older, and leus deer habitat and
Speaker 1: and so I've never surprised all those things. Actor And
Speaker 1: if there was good dear, if deer thriving grows easy thriving,
Speaker 1: you know, and those areas are just tough for now.
Speaker 1: So I think those those two factors that can probably
Speaker 1: the biggest reasons. And plus I think there's just a
Speaker 1: lot of people just don't like having um a far
Speaker 1: away camp to take care of you. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of maintenance on on any kind of building once you
Speaker 1: once you put up building on a land three miles away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've pat there a lot taking care of it, and
Speaker 1: people I think, people like my generation, at least me,
Speaker 1: I don't care to take be taking care of stuff
Speaker 1: all time. I just you know, show up someplace and
Speaker 1: I sleep all that I know to sleep on the
Speaker 1: back of my truck, then maintain a shack year round,
Speaker 1: you know. For deer hunting. That's this way I am well.
Speaker 1: And hunting has changed too, I mean, you know the
Speaker 1: increase in bow hunting and um, you know up north,
Speaker 1: down by us whatever, and there's a I mean there's
Speaker 1: always that talk about the loss of um more of
Speaker 1: loss of deer hunters, fewer deer licenses being sold, but yeah,
Speaker 1: there's an increase in bowl licenses. So it's just changing
Speaker 1: and the style of hunting is changing, and yeah, there's
Speaker 1: no you don't do the community deer drives like we
Speaker 1: used to do, and that used to be a big
Speaker 1: thing up north. Used to drive along those those rural
Speaker 1: roads in Building Wisconsin seed lines of people lined up
Speaker 1: waiting to go in and do a big push. And
Speaker 1: just you know, we just don't hunt that way much anymore.
Speaker 1: But you lament it, oh, I do, just because I
Speaker 1: I think there was a cool time and I um,
Speaker 1: I still do a series um going out in was
Speaker 1: ten years now, where I travel around the different parts
Speaker 1: of the country and visit deer camps because I think
Speaker 1: I'd like to document while it's still around. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the Wisconsin to the Minnesota, go down Salt, visit
Speaker 1: some third deer camps, because even down there is not
Speaker 1: not that easy to maintain those traditions for a long
Speaker 1: for a long time, you know, you know, to go
Speaker 1: generation after generation and maintain the hunting interest. I excuse
Speaker 1: my my own family as an example. I think, well,
Speaker 1: my dad hunted a little bit just to get me going,
Speaker 1: but he dropped off. You know, by the time I
Speaker 1: was coming along where he was, he wasn't active hunting anymore.
Speaker 1: But out of my four brothers, but me and my
Speaker 1: three brothers, I'm the only one that hunts. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people in our generation just don't
Speaker 1: don't have the interest and that I look at our
Speaker 1: hunter demographics and that's not looking all that great for
Speaker 1: the future. So you think that's a part of Americana
Speaker 1: that's kind of slipping away on us in some areas.
Speaker 1: And some areas, yeah, and I think like in the
Speaker 1: you know, in the Midwest, the old idea that you
Speaker 1: had these sort of unsettled wild lands in the north,
Speaker 1: like we grew up. It's just like a thing you
Speaker 1: heard all the time up north, up north, like everyone
Speaker 1: went Like in Michigan, you didn't do any cross movement.
Speaker 1: You didn't know like east west movement. All movement was
Speaker 1: was north south. He's like, drove that direction. If you
Speaker 1: wanted to get into something, you drove north. You wanted
Speaker 1: to get into something good, you drove south. To get
Speaker 1: back home, eyes were always to the north. And the
Speaker 1: first time when I left home, I went north whatever
Speaker 1: hundred miles, hundreds of miles and set up shop up there. Uh.
Speaker 1: One last question for you, you uh we're putting to me,
Speaker 1: is it is it socially acceptable, morally acceptable to schedule
Speaker 1: wedding on opening weekend of deer season. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: my take being a being the Wisconsin chauvinist I am,
Speaker 1: and knowing that Wisconsin deer hunting the deer season, everyone knows.
Speaker 1: Everyone knows when deer season in Wisconsin. And if you
Speaker 1: don't know, you're really really I have to wonder about
Speaker 1: how can you not be learned? Yeah, this is a
Speaker 1: this is a big thing in Wisconsin, you cannot miss
Speaker 1: all the blaze orange going usually north, even though you
Speaker 1: know people going to eastern West too, but there's you
Speaker 1: cannot you cannot miss all the blaze orange and the
Speaker 1: role before our gun season opens. And then think just
Speaker 1: at work, how many people get around and work we're
Speaker 1: talking about deer hunting. Husband's going deer hunting, girl girlfriends
Speaker 1: going with their boyfriends, that kind of stuff. And so
Speaker 1: I think, when you know this is this, this is
Speaker 1: a once of your event. Pretty much most people have
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. Wade my my my friend Tom Herberline always
Speaker 1: had the comment and his research on um hunters in
Speaker 1: Wisconsin that in Wisconsin you're either either are a deer
Speaker 1: hunter or sleeping with a deer hunter because in he
Speaker 1: mean just in one bad be throughout the household, there's
Speaker 1: there's always someone in the house who hunts. So I think,
Speaker 1: having all that of wearing a stuff deer hunting, especially
Speaker 1: a gun season, how can you possibly justify having a
Speaker 1: wedding opening week in a gun season. You know, you
Speaker 1: can affect the lives a lot of people who are
Speaker 1: either going to skip your wedding or or really really
Speaker 1: resentful that you dragged them out of the woods for
Speaker 1: your wedding. That you could have scheduled that fifty one
Speaker 1: other weekend? Why why why would you do that? And
Speaker 1: there's there's a reason I got married in mid July. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I think that's I think personally, that's respectful other
Speaker 1: people's time. And I haven't screwed up. I haven't yet
Speaker 1: screwed up majorly. On children's birthdates. I got one May
Speaker 1: nine in there. That is difficult. It's difficult, but none
Speaker 1: of them were uh by by planning that one. We
Speaker 1: were pretty much planning out And I'm like, at least
Speaker 1: it wasn't the fault. I got a May nine in
Speaker 1: in there, and his mother likes him to be around
Speaker 1: home on his birthday. His mother doesn't want to be
Speaker 1: off doing whatever. Um, I want to be there. It's
Speaker 1: just it's that that wasn't great. It wasn't great, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't horrible. There might come a time though, where
Speaker 1: he gets to make that decision to say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'd really like to be out at Uncle Doug's turkey
Speaker 1: hunt on my birthday. Let's we got the conversation this year,
Speaker 1: we're gonna go turkey hunt. But it's like in my
Speaker 1: family didn't come for me and my family and the
Speaker 1: powers that be within that family. There seems to be
Speaker 1: this thing where everyone's all together on birthdays. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's like the calendar starts to get really crowded. Hold
Speaker 1: your thought, Dug. The calendar starts to get really crowded
Speaker 1: when you have like I do. I have three kids,
Speaker 1: So there's three days. You only got three sixty five
Speaker 1: days out of year. There's three of them. You get
Speaker 1: a uh spouse birthday and the anniversary, handful of religious holidays.
Speaker 1: It's like, if I could do it all over again,
Speaker 1: I just gotten married on Christmas and then married a
Speaker 1: girl who was born on Find a girl. Yeah, find
Speaker 1: a girl's like birthdays around Christmas, get married on Christmas,
Speaker 1: and then try to impregnate her routinely in nine months
Speaker 1: for Christmas, Doug, you have a family story about this.
Speaker 1: I have three things that come to mind about one.
Speaker 1: My uncle, Ralph Zelinski, who was one of my dad's
Speaker 1: hunting buddies up north when he used to go up north.
Speaker 1: And the guy who I first heard the word mooching from,
Speaker 1: got married on Opening weekend. My dad never forgave him.
Speaker 1: Ralph is now ninety three years old. My dad's dad.
Speaker 1: My dad went with grave still piste off about that. Uh,
Speaker 1: why why did you get married an opening weekend? I
Speaker 1: think it was a power thing with I shouldn't say
Speaker 1: because they're both still alive and they might listen to this.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know why. What the hell?
Speaker 1: That's all my dad's What the hell's the matter with him?
Speaker 1: That's all my dad said. Uh. Last year, my nephew, Sam,
Speaker 1: who you all know has and I'm happy to say
Speaker 1: his name, uh, had a new girlfriend. They've been going
Speaker 1: out for about three or four months, and he calls
Speaker 1: me up about three weeks before opening weekend. He goes, hey, uncle,
Speaker 1: so I'm not gonna be there opening weekend, and I
Speaker 1: said why not? He goes, well, Carra's family has a
Speaker 1: wedding Countain, New Jersey, and I said I'd go along.
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize it was opening weekend. But now
Speaker 1: I committed to that's so I gotta go. I said, kid,
Speaker 1: there's two things wrong with that. The first one is
Speaker 1: chances are a year from now she's not gonna be
Speaker 1: your girlfriend. So you just gave up an opening weekend
Speaker 1: for somebody you're not you're no longer with or you
Speaker 1: are still together. You get married, and you said all. Uh,
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of guys really screw themselves in
Speaker 1: the in the courtship phase by giving up liberties that
Speaker 1: they think they're gonna somehow get back later. You need to.
Speaker 1: I tell people, I don't care if you need to
Speaker 1: drive down the road and sleep in a car act
Speaker 1: like you have shipped to do when he started dating someone,
Speaker 1: just to set the scene. Yeah, but you haven't told
Speaker 1: the story I wanted to tell, which one was at about,
Speaker 1: didn't your old man? Oh? Oh, my brother, So my
Speaker 1: mom's my mom is pregnant and the do date. And
Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot of planning from what I
Speaker 1: could tell when when we were conceived. Uh, And my
Speaker 1: my dad was just a you know, I loved going
Speaker 1: up north and deer hunting. And as it happened, my
Speaker 1: brother is do like right at the end of you know,
Speaker 1: that third week in November, and my father started telling
Speaker 1: my mom there had that kid November two. He was
Speaker 1: born November second, two weeks later, Dad's going north. One
Speaker 1: of my old newspaper buddies back in there. This is
Speaker 1: the early eighties, paying and I started our family. Our firstborn,
Speaker 1: Leah was born in January of and so she she
Speaker 1: we we planned it, you know, we made sure that
Speaker 1: we didn't stir at all this stuff until we could,
Speaker 1: you know, and penning up pregnant right away. So it
Speaker 1: was January for Leah. Ellie came along in July. The
Speaker 1: only one became close to missing on was Carson, our
Speaker 1: our youngest, and she was born right before she was
Speaker 1: born September twelve. And this and this is before I
Speaker 1: was like this, before I was elk hunting, and so
Speaker 1: this is still you're still Eastern White was still Eastern
Speaker 1: whitetail hunting a great I thought we stood in the
Speaker 1: home on that one. You know, it just really it
Speaker 1: was close. But um, I was telling some guys that
Speaker 1: worked out, you know, they something about um. I can't
Speaker 1: rememb how we got talking about because none of these
Speaker 1: guys were hunters. But when I mentioned the fact that
Speaker 1: Penny and I planned, and she wasn't like it wasn't
Speaker 1: like I was holding a gun to her head. We
Speaker 1: just talked about in practical terms, when you want his
Speaker 1: kids to arrive and when we kind of for my
Speaker 1: schedule it worked out birthday. If I'm if you want
Speaker 1: me home to help with the kids, it's better if
Speaker 1: it's outside of hunt when the calendar and some lovemaking.
Speaker 1: So if that's one guy saying, people like you make
Speaker 1: me ashamed of the male species amount god, I couldn't
Speaker 1: be prouder of you. And I thought, well, hey, if
Speaker 1: if my wife understands it all matters to me, don't
Speaker 1: give a ship with this. But I thought, no, I
Speaker 1: I know I missed the mark a little bit on
Speaker 1: a May niner because of spring bear and Turkey. But
Speaker 1: when you factor in, I also got a mid December,
Speaker 1: and I got a late January. So and the late January,
Speaker 1: which is the best one I got, was accidental. So
Speaker 1: it's like, even when I'm making mistakes, even when I'm
Speaker 1: making mistakes, I'm hitting the right. What do you got?
Speaker 1: Y uh? I'm not really throwing him under the bus.
Speaker 1: But I missed are now good friend Brodie's wedding because
Speaker 1: it was a September wedding. I can't remember exactly when,
Speaker 1: but my wife had to go with a friend of mine.
Speaker 1: You sent your wife to your buddy. It was September,
Speaker 1: and Broody understood I suppose Yeah, yeah, what the hell
Speaker 1: was Brody getting married then? For? I don't you know,
Speaker 1: I wish I didn't like, Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm assuming Brodie's listening. No, but what are your
Speaker 1: for for? For throwing offspring? What'd you hit? Oh? Um?
Speaker 1: August uh seventh, December five? So yeah, but perfect good
Speaker 1: shooting de Yeah, just one right in the perfect spot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can't say that that was planned. That was dumb luck.
Speaker 1: But you started to realize that the odds are it's
Speaker 1: gonna be okay because there's more months when it's okay
Speaker 1: to have a kid then there are when it's not
Speaker 1: okay to have a kid. Yes, it's playing a room
Speaker 1: that it figure things out without really causing hard feelings. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not you're asking the impossible. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just me. It's just being reasonable and realistic. And because
Speaker 1: like when I got married, when we got married was
Speaker 1: December six, you know, I just saw the navy and
Speaker 1: Penny's mom made it clear that she's not moving to
Speaker 1: Wisconsin with me unless she's married. And so I looked
Speaker 1: at my schedule, thought, well, dear seasons, you know this,
Speaker 1: how about two weeks after after deer season. So that's
Speaker 1: what we did. Yeah, all right, Doggy Concluders. I was
Speaker 1: fascinated by the wallow conversation. And you've given Pat so
Speaker 1: much credit about Uh. I was pumping them up, pumping
Speaker 1: that wallow, finding that wallow, all the woodsmanship that goes
Speaker 1: along with you know, all these various places where it
Speaker 1: might be already pouring in, And it just reminded me
Speaker 1: so much of being able to figure out where turkeys roosting,
Speaker 1: hijacking him on the way good Woods takes good Woods
Speaker 1: and ship to find out where turkey's roost is, to
Speaker 1: find out a turkey's roost and then and then bush wack,
Speaker 1: I'm on his way in there. Pat Concluders, Yeah, my
Speaker 1: concluder is that um. I know you guys like history,
Speaker 1: And when I realized we're gonna be meeting in Lacrosse
Speaker 1: made me think of an old lieutenant um named He
Speaker 1: never lived an old age. I think he died at
Speaker 1: age thirty four in the War of eighteen twelve. His
Speaker 1: name is You probably know of Zebulon Pike, Pike's Peak,
Speaker 1: Pike's Peak, Well, did you know this Western? Did you
Speaker 1: know those two Pikes Peak. Nope, there's one just down
Speaker 1: the road here, just down the river here at um
Speaker 1: in Iowa. That way, Yeah, you go on to Iowa.
Speaker 1: Five feet above right across from Prairie Toucheen and Prairie
Speaker 1: to Sheen is where the Wisconsin River meets the Wisconsin
Speaker 1: meets the Mississippi River. Right across from there is a
Speaker 1: five foot bluff and he named that on Pike's Peak two.
Speaker 1: That was the first one he named. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: had kind he was, um, yeah, Well, and just about
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago they had like, I think it's a
Speaker 1: centennial over Minnesota, and this guy referred to zebulon Pike
Speaker 1: as um. He said something like, it's two hundred years
Speaker 1: since this exploration he made up the Mississippi, and he's
Speaker 1: still not Lewis and Clark. He's still basically no respect
Speaker 1: for the guy. And one of the reasons that they
Speaker 1: don't respect him to this day is because he was
Speaker 1: One of his missions from from President Jefferson was to
Speaker 1: find the headwaters of the Mississippi. So he went up
Speaker 1: in the central Minnesota, north central Minnesota, and it decided
Speaker 1: that um Leech Lake was the headwaters of the Mississippi. Well,
Speaker 1: of course time went on and they realized, no, it's
Speaker 1: actually to the west lower ways and it's actually like
Speaker 1: a Taska. So he blew that. But while he's up there,
Speaker 1: he set his his his um soldiers to work on
Speaker 1: doug out canoes because they had had to keep exploring.
Speaker 1: So he's had to make these dugout canoes. And they're
Speaker 1: all wondering, why the hell would you make your men
Speaker 1: make dug out canoes when you have were among the
Speaker 1: Chiple people. They have jibwey and they make they're famous
Speaker 1: for these birch bark canoes. But this guy insisted on
Speaker 1: his dugouts. Well, they sank very quickly, they sank with
Speaker 1: all his powder and zebyone pipe. Decide, well, let's try
Speaker 1: the powder out. So he had the guy spread the
Speaker 1: gunpowder over all these all this I think prid camers
Speaker 1: or whatever the cloth they had in those days. And
Speaker 1: then they said that high enough above a fire they
Speaker 1: thought was safe for burned, burned his tents up, So
Speaker 1: that's tense burn up. He's ruined everything, and this kind
Speaker 1: of reputation, these kind of things he did, the things
Speaker 1: he was famous for, is real screw ups. At the
Speaker 1: same time, he had some respect because he was like,
Speaker 1: he was a tough he was a tough survivory type guy.
Speaker 1: He'd be sick and he worked through sicknesses and then
Speaker 1: but um his place in history. The people who studied
Speaker 1: him kind of referred to him as the b team
Speaker 1: of Lewis and Clark, that he was he was not,
Speaker 1: he was not in their league. Said, I didn't know
Speaker 1: this about I didn't know that Pike was kind of
Speaker 1: like not slick. Yeah, and he he went Jefferson. Then
Speaker 1: after this UM exploration in this part of the world,
Speaker 1: Jefferson send to explore the UM the southern regions of
Speaker 1: the Louisiana Purchase because Lewis and Clark up doing on
Speaker 1: the northwest. And he went down in the Colorado area.
Speaker 1: He got the Pike's Peak with the Moulteney named Pike's
Speaker 1: Peak out there, and he decided he was trying to
Speaker 1: try to scale Pike's Peak while it got to be
Speaker 1: pretty cold, and they gave up that idea, and he
Speaker 1: decided that this this place, this mountain can't be climbed,
Speaker 1: So they gave up, gave up in the idea. Then
Speaker 1: he they started pushing southward, and I think done is
Speaker 1: his messengers Michigan was to find the Red River someplace
Speaker 1: down there. Well, he got his troops all lost. They
Speaker 1: eventually got captured by the Spanish um army. And then
Speaker 1: and then apparently his his people, his his men were
Speaker 1: thankful that they had been captured because they finally had
Speaker 1: somebody in charge. I knew what was going on, but
Speaker 1: I'm lost anymore. Yeah, So then eventually they let let
Speaker 1: him loose them go back, you know, And but he
Speaker 1: ended up dying not that long after that. He fought
Speaker 1: in the War of eighteen twelve. Of them when they're
Speaker 1: invading Toronto. He had killed in Toronto at age thirty four,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was Pike died at thirty four four. Yeah, jeez,
Speaker 1: I think Custer was thirty six when he died. Yea
Speaker 1: our rice away life is like, well, I hit thirty
Speaker 1: six and I was like, well Coster died, Now, that's
Speaker 1: the way to you take stock here if people die. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Mozart died at three seven. Yeah, she's like Zebulon. Pike
Speaker 1: died at thirty three or four. He was a general
Speaker 1: by that time, but he was you know, yeah, he
Speaker 1: was dead at thirty four. That makes me feel like
Speaker 1: a do nothing. He sucked at everything. It sounds like,
Speaker 1: well a good public apparently. Yeah name big mountains, hey man.
Speaker 1: You know the story about um Laramie. Okay, so Laramie's
Speaker 1: a guy like he's a mountain man, not even shows
Speaker 1: up out west hoping to be a mountain man, quickly
Speaker 1: gets killed under depending who he asked how he got killed,
Speaker 1: he might have got killed by some Indians and stuff
Speaker 1: down a hole in the ice and the beaver pond.
Speaker 1: There's a different versions of events, but total Greenhorn shows
Speaker 1: up on the scene very quickly, is dead, murdered, killed
Speaker 1: in the action mountain man action winds up with a town,
Speaker 1: a mountain range, a peak, a river and no no, no,
Speaker 1: no no, and yeah you have how he got that
Speaker 1: kind of why they picked his name out. I'm guessing
Speaker 1: it was like because whatever beaver pond, he got stuff
Speaker 1: down through the ice and became Laramie River and then
Speaker 1: people and is a pretty name. Yeah, now Bridger, there's
Speaker 1: a guy that deserves it and got everything named after him.
Speaker 1: That that's my story from that's part of the world,
Speaker 1: you know, from zebulon pikes Um search up here Yeah.
Speaker 1: The moral of the story is look for the highest
Speaker 1: thing you can see around and name it after yourself.
Speaker 1: So there are two pikes Peaks. Now you I don't
Speaker 1: know about the Wisconsin one. Well, it's Hashi Iowa. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah, it's it's right across the river from
Speaker 1: Prairie to Sheen. Larry Pete, No, I'm sorry, Pikes Peak Iowa. Ye,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna climb that onet. You can drive right to
Speaker 1: the top of it. And we drove as five feet
Speaker 1: So it's like, what's that one guy? What's fourteen divide
Speaker 1: by four at five? You know I can't do that
Speaker 1: kind of man. I was screwed up. SUTs. It's somewhere
Speaker 1: south five hundred. It's that's the height of Pike's Peak.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, I started our Pike story and he
Speaker 1: was like, he's like, dude, next time I name a mountain, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it like this. He also he also
Speaker 1: apparently picked that spot Pike's Peak for an army fort.
Speaker 1: He suggested the army they built a fort there, when
Speaker 1: then the Army engineers came through years later, looked at
Speaker 1: looked things over and said, no, pretty Sheen will do
Speaker 1: just fine, they're building it up on the on the mountain,
Speaker 1: they're up on the bluff. They're building it down in
Speaker 1: that the confluence of the Wisconsin River the Mississippi River,
Speaker 1: so they could command the river and not to carry
Speaker 1: their stife so far. Yeah, so he wasn't good at
Speaker 1: sighting forts either. His long list of things that wasn't there,
Speaker 1: all right, Doug Durren, No, I know, yeah, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: just saying your name. I like to end things by
Speaker 1: saying names like that. Thanks for having Yeah. If it
Speaker 1: was the beginning, I'd be like Dug during but then
Speaker 1: I'm like d Dug durn and Patrick Durkin. What's your
Speaker 1: middle named? Pat? Edward P, D P E D P Okay,
Speaker 1: did you have any closing thoughts? No, no, I don't
Speaker 1: have any nothing. Yeah, I'm spent all right, Thank you, Pat,
Speaker 1: Thank you Doug. Well, thanks for having us.