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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast, coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't predict anything all right, coming at you. You know,

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Speaker 1: a little bit bug bitten because I just got back

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Speaker 1: from Mexico and got bit by some bit by three

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Speaker 1: different kinds of things. A little sand please, not the

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Speaker 1: kind of used for fishing bait, not little ghost crabs

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Speaker 1: which some people call sand please, bit by those, but

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Speaker 1: by regular mosquitoes, and also bit by no seams at dusk,

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Speaker 1: sons of bitches come for you. I wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: prepared because dude, I brought down Deep. I put it

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Speaker 1: on my kid's legs, and as soon as they went

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Speaker 1: to bed, I'd give me a shower. I'm a little

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Speaker 1: bit pared worried about Deep, rightfully, so, since it will

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Speaker 1: warp your phone, as I found, if you spill Deep,

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Speaker 1: if you spill this insecra pullet on your phone, it'll

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Speaker 1: warp your phone. So imagine what it does to your

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Speaker 1: parts of you know, your skin cells. Uh So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: coming at you, partially bug bitten and definitely from the

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Speaker 1: banks of the Mississippi. There's a writer that he there's

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Speaker 1: a writer named Ben Metcalf. I don't know if he

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Speaker 1: writes anymore or not. He's to he's to write pieces

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Speaker 1: for Harperism. Was also was an editor somewhere, No yah,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember who he worked for, but he wrote,

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Speaker 1: and some of his work will be collected to Harper's.

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Speaker 1: And this guy Ben Mattcalf wrote a piece called American Heartworm,

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Speaker 1: and it was about the Mississippi so as much as Twain,

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Speaker 1: as much as Mark Twain would celebrate the Mississippi, Ben

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Speaker 1: metcalfe uh lowth it the Mississippi River one of his

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Speaker 1: credits for a lot of reasons. One that he feels

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Speaker 1: that any self respecting rivers should be able to handle

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Speaker 1: some amount of water without spilling out of its banks,

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Speaker 1: and like it for that reason. Another thing is he

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Speaker 1: feels that it's also the Mississippi is a con man

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Speaker 1: um and his and and stole like stole its place

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Speaker 1: in the American lexicon because by any regional reasonable measure,

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Speaker 1: by any understanding of a hydrology, the Mississippi isn't the Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: The Mississippi is the Missouri. The Missouri is the great

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Speaker 1: continent drainer. I mean it heads in three Forks, Montana

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Speaker 1: where it's principle where it's UH. Three forks is the

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Speaker 1: confluence of the Madison, Gallatin, and Jefferson. So it's like

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Speaker 1: the Secretary of UH at the time of the Lewis

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Speaker 1: and Clark expedition. Yeah, Madison Secretary state, that's over my head, Jefferson,

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Speaker 1: And get look at who then armed after those three

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Speaker 1: fellers and all all political figures at the time they

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Speaker 1: all head together. They come together at three forks and

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Speaker 1: form in the Missouri. And then that thing flows thousands

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Speaker 1: of miles and picks up a little ship in tributary

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Speaker 1: called the Mississippi and thereby changes its name. What all

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Speaker 1: this is doing is just like picking up a minor

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Speaker 1: tributary dwarfed by like not nearly what the Ohio is.

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Speaker 1: When it picks it up, it should be called the

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Speaker 1: Missouri River. Who has this little, little known tributary called

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Speaker 1: the Mississippi. This has been Metcalf's argument because we're empty.

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Speaker 1: It's not where it begins. It's because people saw it

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Speaker 1: and didn't really didn't really until later fully comprehend like

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Speaker 1: what that watershed was, that it was one of the

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Speaker 1: great if at the confluence if the which one is greater,

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Speaker 1: like which one has it when they come together. The

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Speaker 1: Missouri's carrying more water mhm. And the Missouri has been

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Speaker 1: cranking along for the Mississippi heads like north Yeah, north

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Speaker 1: central Minnesota. So how far from here? Not as far

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Speaker 1: away as western Montana. The river is a con man. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you don't wanted to talk about that. This quick little

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Speaker 1: thing that I found on it, it just says the

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Speaker 1: president was named after the President and two of his

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Speaker 1: cabinet members. But it doesn't say Jefferson was the president.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't well, Tommy Jefferson, but it doesn't say you know

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Speaker 1: what positions they held in the cabinet. It was like, uh,

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Speaker 1: it was like treasure and secretary or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Easy to find out, easy, so easy to find out.

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Speaker 1: It's staggering that Yanni hasn't found out yet. Um, you're

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Speaker 1: honest to recap some of your time you've been messing

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Speaker 1: around with SUV cooking. M you just did some shanks

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Speaker 1: in your SUV machine. Tell me about that hours I

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Speaker 1: cooked him at what temperature? Hundred and sixty that's hot

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Speaker 1: for Suvi? Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, it is on

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Speaker 1: the hotter side. I don't think you Look, I've done

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Speaker 1: two different recipes now, so I'm definitely still figuring out.

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Speaker 1: And from what I've been reading online, I think there's

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Speaker 1: still a lot of figuring out. I think one of

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Speaker 1: the pluses or you know, pitching points off suv is that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a great window they the meat is done and

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Speaker 1: what won't be overdone. You might explain it to folks.

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Speaker 1: What we're talking about is the bulk of them. I

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Speaker 1: think the bulk of might know. My brother just last night,

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Speaker 1: what if I knew what a bond me sandwich was.

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Speaker 1: I've been eating those things for Yeah, those are tasty

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Speaker 1: long time. So here's the guy. One website called Chef's

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Speaker 1: Steps dot com, which is a Suvie recipe website. I

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Speaker 1: have there you go, Um, they have a squirrel bond

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Speaker 1: Me recipe made with Suvie squirrel Me. Yeah, but my

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Speaker 1: bro made bond me with Patte that you made from

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Speaker 1: some some game livers, dear liver and something else. Putting.

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Speaker 1: I would bet you there's no way we can find

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Speaker 1: out but that it might not be the bulk of

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Speaker 1: our listeners would know what Suvi is. I'm guessing I

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Speaker 1: would take that bat would you're saying that of the

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Speaker 1: mugs listening right now, less than half are familiar with SUVI. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying that that's a high probability, high enough

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Speaker 1: where I would take the sure break it down. But

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Speaker 1: some Suvie cooking basic Let me do this. You know

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Speaker 1: what Suvie is. I don't know, Mr durn, don't look

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Speaker 1: at me. Man, So half of this room, um, and

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Speaker 1: they actually count of listeners, I really don't. But you

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Speaker 1: basically there's a it's cooking in water and so that

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Speaker 1: you're cooking meat and water, actually cook anything. There's vegetable recipes,

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Speaker 1: there's fish recipes, but so that you don't uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically boil your meat and get it all soggy. You

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Speaker 1: put it into a sealed plastic bag. Now you can

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Speaker 1: just use a regular old ziplock, or if you have

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Speaker 1: a vacuum sealer, you can go that route. Um. The machine,

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Speaker 1: the way that the whole system step is usually just

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Speaker 1: used like a large stockpot, maybe a two or your

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Speaker 1: gallon stockpot. And then there's a machine that looks like

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Speaker 1: a I don't know, it's wand shaped, I guess, um,

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Speaker 1: And basically half of it plunges down into the water

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Speaker 1: and it regulates the temperature of the water. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the lowest and highest settings are, but

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Speaker 1: you basically just set that and it keeps it at

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Speaker 1: a perfect temp that you want to keep it at

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Speaker 1: for however long you want to do it. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: you like if you're cooking, Like let's say you're cooking

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Speaker 1: a roast and you want to pull the roast it

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Speaker 1: for rare, you know you want to pull, you pull,

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Speaker 1: you want to pull your venison rolls. So say you like,

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Speaker 1: I like to pull it up. Well, the ovens four

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Speaker 1: d degrees, right, So this thing is climbing, climb and climb,

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Speaker 1: and to eventually reach that and you're intercepting it at

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Speaker 1: that point where you want to nap it out then

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Speaker 1: and there you are. Yeah. Added, the complication of that

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Speaker 1: set is that you pull it at one temp knowing

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Speaker 1: that it's going to continue to rise to your goal

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Speaker 1: temperature because the outer heat is going to continue to

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Speaker 1: penetrate into the inside. So this you just said that

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Speaker 1: what you want to end up at exactly. So if

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Speaker 1: you're cooking, if you know that you like your salmon,

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Speaker 1: say at blank temp, you just set your water bath

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Speaker 1: at that temp drop in your back. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you think about it, like if you said it

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Speaker 1: at one sixty, the meat never gets above one sixty. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what does happen is that there is a breaking

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Speaker 1: down of you know, proteins. Obviously because I cooked my

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Speaker 1: shanks for forty eight hours and hours, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: But again the recipe was like, it's like we could

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Speaker 1: have eight eaten it Saturday night. Instead we ate it Sunday.

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Speaker 1: It's perfect on Tuesday, and it's perfect on Wednesday because

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Speaker 1: it's just keeping it at that temperature that whole time.

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Speaker 1: It's not rising, which I think when you're going for

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Speaker 1: a medium rare steak is important. But in this case

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Speaker 1: the shanks, it's obviously continuing to break it down, which

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Speaker 1: is I think where it might get a little bit trickier.

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Speaker 1: The window might not be as great when you are

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Speaker 1: working with a piece of me that you want to

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Speaker 1: eat it medium rare, because medium rare or whatever, hundred

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Speaker 1: thirty degrees after six hours is going to be different

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Speaker 1: than a hundred thirty degrees after ten hours. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I kind of exaggerate about done on Tuesday and down

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday, same temperature on Tuesday, same temperature on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: But it has a Hessy effect of you can screw

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Speaker 1: it up, you can screw it up. I don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly how yet. I'll know more. I'm gonna keep messing

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Speaker 1: around with it, but well, I know how like things

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Speaker 1: that I've screwed up is, I've found it. When it

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Speaker 1: comes to cooking wild game For me personally, UM, I

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Speaker 1: don't like. I don't like to use the Suvi for

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Speaker 1: like lean gross that don't have a lot of connective

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Speaker 1: tissue on them, such as like if you were to

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Speaker 1: take a white tail deer and take the sirloin or

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Speaker 1: round rolls off the back leg, I can get a

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Speaker 1: better effect. I can get a better product in my

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Speaker 1: oven that I can get with my Suvie because it

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Speaker 1: gives it to my taste, it gives it a sort

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Speaker 1: of pastiness. Where I think it really shines is when

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Speaker 1: it comes down to cooking things. It's it's an easy,

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Speaker 1: pretty failsafe way to cook cuts that are best cooked

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Speaker 1: slow cooked strategy, like I've taken one of the one

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Speaker 1: of the things I made that I liked most was

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Speaker 1: Suvi was I took one time. I have Elena front

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Speaker 1: leg of have alna, which is a rascally little a

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Speaker 1: rascally little hunkle. It just sounds tough. Yes, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: can pull those strands out and flash your teeth with them. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but in that thing, I think I gave it like

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Speaker 1: thirty six hours, um, and then it just is like

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Speaker 1: you could just pick it apart of your fingers and

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Speaker 1: it's silk and beautiful. Yeah. Well I just kind of

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Speaker 1: tossed those picked all that meat, kind of tossed him

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Speaker 1: with oil and then stuck him under a broiler for

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Speaker 1: a minute because the thing was stuvee. Cooking is you're

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Speaker 1: oftentimes getting it just right. But what you get used

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Speaker 1: to And I remember one time a chef like reading

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Speaker 1: about the chef who was wanted to quit being a chef,

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Speaker 1: and he says, well, I just got bored with it. Um,

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Speaker 1: making things soft on the inside and crispy on the outside.

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Speaker 1: It just got old to me. But when you do

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Speaker 1: a roast in your oven, like one of the nice

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Speaker 1: things about it is you get that like that like

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Speaker 1: finished outside, you know, like crispy browned outside, and you

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Speaker 1: cut in and low behold, there's like this magical red

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Speaker 1: middle and it's like the whole thing together. All the

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Speaker 1: parts are bigger than any individual part. The texture that

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Speaker 1: meat of a nice roast like that, the texture and

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Speaker 1: the meat is a part of it. And if the

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Speaker 1: other way of cooking is breaking that down, then I

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Speaker 1: see where you're because you wind up with the whole

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Speaker 1: beauty of it, like the crispy outside, the red size,

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Speaker 1: like it's all nice together. So what a part of

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Speaker 1: Stuvie cook Like most Suvie preparations, you'll find that you're

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Speaker 1: gonna get it perfect and then see it after the fact.

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Speaker 1: Whereas if I'm cooking rolls to my oven, I see

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Speaker 1: it and finishing my oven. Here you're off and like

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Speaker 1: a lot of if you're looking at the Suvie a

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Speaker 1: lot of preparations, you're starting it. You get it all done,

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Speaker 1: it's ready to go. Can you take that thing out

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Speaker 1: and see it? Or people even finish them with like

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Speaker 1: a torch apparatus, right like you might like eat people

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Speaker 1: to do like Suvie scallops and then take a torch

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Speaker 1: and see here the scout with a torch and really

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Speaker 1: control that. Then you know. So it's real science he cooking.

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Speaker 1: But as good as it is for some stuff, I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's like perfect. It's not like perfect for everything. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think all of a sudden, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: start having just get ready your oven. Five buckets in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen, and one says Monday and Tuesday Wednesday. But

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what's cool, though, is you could take

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Speaker 1: a couple, let's say, because you did chanks right, how

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Speaker 1: they turn out great? So I had I did a

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Speaker 1: m sick of dear shank, the whole shank in the bag.

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Speaker 1: It had a white tail shank. And then I had

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Speaker 1: one bag. I think they had three or four of those. Again,

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Speaker 1: do you know the name of that little it's like

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Speaker 1: a shank, but you know it's not connected to the bone.

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Speaker 1: It's connected to that that goes up on the hind leg.

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Speaker 1: We kind of get that big shank like peace right,

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Speaker 1: It has all that same seeing you in college and

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Speaker 1: stuff running through it. And um, the ones on the

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Speaker 1: bone were just delightful, this silky smooth, wonderful flavor. Um,

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Speaker 1: and no dryness at all about him. The antelope little

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Speaker 1: football tendon chunks I just described. Um there's still a

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Speaker 1: touch of dryness and it wasn't the SUV's fault. It's

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Speaker 1: just the cut of me. It just didn't have as

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Speaker 1: much fat, connected tissue whatever it is as the shanks

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Speaker 1: that were on the bone. Yeah, that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like the sort of the thing with all forms of

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Speaker 1: cooking is um not all hunks of meat made equal. No,

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Speaker 1: if you went to make sure, if you took some

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Speaker 1: like surloin meat and went and did a a shank

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Speaker 1: preparation for it's gonna be miserable. But there's something about

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Speaker 1: those those pieces that have all that collagen or stuff

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Speaker 1: that breaks to connective tissue, silver skin, tendons that break

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Speaker 1: down into that just like silky beautiness. I love it um.

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Speaker 1: Well to say it's nice thing about it is, if

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Speaker 1: let's say you're having some folks over for dinner, you

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Speaker 1: could bag out servings, stick them in that thing and

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Speaker 1: you don't know you're eating at five o'clock or eight o'clock. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can bag out serving stick them in that thing

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Speaker 1: the day, a day and a half before, two days before,

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Speaker 1: a day before whatever, for your partic your preparation, knowing

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Speaker 1: that at the second you want to reach in there

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Speaker 1: and cut those bags open, it's already but you're just

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Speaker 1: you're just like putting you know, you're you're putting all

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Speaker 1: the ingredients in there, you can you know. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying like like you know, you're if you're doing shanks,

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Speaker 1: you're putting all the azabuco, all the things would traditionally

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Speaker 1: going to asa bugle in that bag and stealing that

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Speaker 1: bag up and putting them in there. What I'd like

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Speaker 1: to mess around with a little bit is like I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about maybe putting like a couple of sprigs

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Speaker 1: at time in there, sprig of rose man, some butter,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe trying to some wonder if it will

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Speaker 1: impart that flavor. No, I feel, yeah, I've packed that

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Speaker 1: bag full of good things to eat, even you know,

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Speaker 1: doing something like the Havolino sang. But yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: like for me though, cooking those like loin and loin

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Speaker 1: and like quality roast. It's like I get such what

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Speaker 1: I get out of my oven cannot be beatn yes,

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Speaker 1: can you. It's more of a replacement for basically brazing technique.

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Speaker 1: It's a nice it's a nice fail safe, time friendly.

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Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time to do it, but

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Speaker 1: it's good preparation. And when you said that you're putting

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Speaker 1: all kinds of good So you're like putting vegetables and

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things in with it. Sure you can't

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Speaker 1: know that the vegetables are going to be yeah, because

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Speaker 1: like you know everything even then everything has its own

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Speaker 1: cookie time. I mean there's like it's it's becoming such

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Speaker 1: a popular thing now that there's no short you can

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Speaker 1: go find recipes for anything. Should you go buy us?

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Speaker 1: If you buy a Suvie device, it's gonna come with

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Speaker 1: a book. You realize every damn thing you've ever eaten

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Speaker 1: now one thing? Uh Um. Steve Kendrot, he's been doing salmon,

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Speaker 1: Like I gave him some salmon from the fish shack.

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Speaker 1: He's doing salmon and his Suvie and loving it. That

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Speaker 1: dude is a Suvie fool. Now he knows about it,

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Speaker 1: you know, he damned sure know about it. He likes it.

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Speaker 1: I sent him some vacuum bags and he was he

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Speaker 1: was more fired up about Suvian with him than he

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Speaker 1: was about freezing him. Huh. Speaking of Steve, I was

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Speaker 1: also telling you that made his Fennel sauceag dress um,

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Speaker 1: which it's just it's it's so good. It might be

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Speaker 1: so good because it is so simple. But literally all

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Speaker 1: it is is fat, salt, pepper, and fennel. Well meat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you got your yeah, you got your buck meat.

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Speaker 1: Then he caught the fat in. Yeah, a lot of fat.

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Speaker 1: It's his recipe was fifty fifty's much and I had

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Speaker 1: the sauceage is phenomenal. But I think it's like, but

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Speaker 1: I wanted the first time I wanted to do it.

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Speaker 1: I want to follow the recipe because I feel like

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Speaker 1: you should. And then you can tweak it because you

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Speaker 1: just never know otherwise. So next time I probably will

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Speaker 1: cut it back to forty, maybe even thirty. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And my thinking of it goes to be honest, like

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Speaker 1: what tastes good fifty fifty. At some point it ceases

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Speaker 1: to be a wild game dish, that's true. At some

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Speaker 1: point it becomes it's like a hybrid. It's all a hybrid.

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Speaker 1: Like my brother used to be like a real purist

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Speaker 1: and he wouldn't put any domestic fat in his gaming.

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Speaker 1: He would just if he was making burgers, he'd crack

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Speaker 1: an egg in there, Danny, he'd crack an egg in

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Speaker 1: there so he could make it hold together into patty.

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Speaker 1: That's extreme I think is extreme. I find my personal

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Speaker 1: comfort zone in the ten to fat. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: feel like, to me, sausage, it can't be sausage. And

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Speaker 1: if there's if it's not like greasy enough, there's gotta

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Speaker 1: be some grease left in the pan, because otherwise I

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Speaker 1: feel like you're just eating this like thing that kind

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Speaker 1: of tastes like sausage because the flavors there. But something

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Speaker 1: is just not sausage like because you've taken too much

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Speaker 1: fat out. Okay, then let's come up with a different

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Speaker 1: word for it. Meat. Uh sticks, No, that's not right.

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Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Sausage flavor dry meat, ground dry,

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Speaker 1: ground meat, sauceage flavor dry me. I'm cool with that,

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Speaker 1: but his sausage is really good. Anyways, Yeah, back to it,

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Speaker 1: and the recipe came out wonderful. I mean it's just

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00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,919
Speaker 1: so simple fennel. I mean it's all you're like tasting

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00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: and salt, pepper, and it's wonder Does he toast his

336
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Speaker 1: fennel first? I don't know if the recipe didn't call

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00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: for that's a good trick man, when you're making sausage

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Speaker 1: like whatever, like sweet Italian any kind of sausage. You're

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00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,959
Speaker 1: putting fennel in there. Take all your seeds and toast them, right,

340
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 1: what does that do? Smells your whole house up, like

341
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: fennel smells good man. I don't know if it then

342
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 1: goes away, but just like really like pleasing. If you

343
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 1: toast them and you get them all warm, like coriander, fennel, whatever,

344
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: you put them in a pan over burn is a

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00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 1: dry pan over burner, kind of shake it and they'll

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00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 1: kind of let off like a like an oil, and

347
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: they'll get very fragrant. Then throw those. But if they're

348
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 1: still warm, you throw those in your coffee grinder. If

349
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 1: you're doing like if you're like pulverizing a little bit,

350
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: then you really got something that smells nice. I think

351
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: it's got to add to the flavor because there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of dishes, like when you're cooking Indian food, A

353
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Speaker 1: lot of times like you've sauteed your onions and and

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Speaker 1: maybe a couple of the other things that you're sautang

355
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: like that in the oil that might take five or

356
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: ten minutes. And before you add like let's just say

357
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: ifest curry, before you add the coconut milk and your carrots,

358
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: and peas and chicken or whatever it might be. UM,

359
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 1: when you throw the spices in, you let them kind

360
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: of cooking toast in that pan for a couple of

361
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: minutes to you know, release extra flavor, and then you

362
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 1: add in the rest of the ingredients. So I'm sure

363
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: it works the same for that funnel. The next thing

364
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sue v and this is the last we'll

365
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: talk about it. I still have two big gass yellow

366
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: eye flats that I've been eyeballing in my freezer, and

367
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to get to them pretty quick. They last

368
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: a lot longer in salmon and the freezer because they're

369
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: not that fatty. But I'm gonna do those. I'm gonna

370
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: do those guys with my SUV machine. I used to

371
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 1: have a giant Stuvie machine that came with like what

372
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: looked like you can wash a child in the tub.

373
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Speaker 1: But I gave it to my buddy Pooter because now

374
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: I got that smaller one. Um. Pat Dark and Doug

375
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 1: during the Cousins, the Drek and during Cousins Pat. Okay,

376
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter what you say, because it's not

377
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:39,360
Speaker 1: gonna change in my mind. What who who has tell

378
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: me about your opinions on your findings on wound wound loss.

379
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: I was gonna say before you even said what you said,

380
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I know, Mary, what do I

381
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: say right now? I probably won't change your mind. You

382
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: were going to preface, Yeah, I was gonna be my preface. Um,

383
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 1: I'll start by saying one article I've always liked. The

384
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: way I handled it was I broke it down one

385
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: time in a Wisconsin gun season to show that our

386
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: peak deer season was the year two thousand when we

387
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: killed like over four hundred thousand deer in Wisconsin and

388
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: we basically if I broke it down to show that

389
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: we were killing about one point four deer per second

390
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: during that nine day guns season, and you break it

391
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 1: over the course of the nine day season, and then

392
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: I started calculating. I started looking into it to kill

393
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: one point four deer second. Comment, So, all right, did

394
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: you ever figure it out like an opening day? No? See,

395
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: actually I actually did that, but I don't have that.

396
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't have that at the tip of my tongue. No.

397
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: I actually did break it down by by UM opening

398
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: weekend and then UM opening Day and then the rest

399
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: of the season. I had this whole article on this

400
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: whole topic, so real, real quick. On opening day of

401
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: the four hundred thousand they got killed in the season,

402
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: can you guess how many got killed in open open

403
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: the weekend typically opening weekend. I think they figure close

404
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: to sixty percent gets killed opening weekend night. Then it

405
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: just kind of goes down picks back up around Thanksgiving

406
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: because we always have our season around starts the weekend

407
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: before Thanksgiving, the ends the Sunday after Thanksgiving. How big

408
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: was the deer herd this year? The year you're talking about, um,

409
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: that was like an all time record numbers. So I

410
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: think they calculated one five million deer or so one

411
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: point six million they they estimated in that population, and

412
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: they were able to they were able to pull a

413
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: harvest of four hundred It wasn't even more a four

414
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. And that was at the time regarded as

415
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: like wildly too many deers. Oh yeah, I mean well,

416
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: I think realistic people I thought that was too many deer.

417
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: We had too many deer and deer on the ground

418
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: not getting killed. But then you go into, um, what

419
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: hunters want though, and there was a lot of hunters

420
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: that your thousand that was a pretty mediocre to average season,

421
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, so you always get those arguments A happy

422
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: never happy. As I said the last time we talked,

423
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: deer make people stupid, just the way it is. Um.

424
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: But to continue my discussion though, is I UM, I

425
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: got curious about that after for shooting that made dear

426
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: you know, deer per second, and I think last season

427
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: was point zero point six two deer per second in

428
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: the last cutting season two thousand seventeen, two seventeen was

429
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: zero point six to deer, so point six deer per second,

430
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: and in two thousand it was more than more than

431
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: double that over the average out of the course during

432
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: hunting hours. I just was doing some math there exactly. Yeah, yeah,

433
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: I broke it. I broke it down by hours of

434
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: shooting light, the kind of thing. And then, um, what

435
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: was fun then was I took those kind of numbers

436
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: and started digging into the research I could find on

437
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: on how how many shots get fired for each year killed.

438
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: And there actually is you know, some research around Wisconsin

439
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: from the seventies, and there's research from Carolina, South Carolina

440
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: in two thousand, not that time period. UM Ontario did

441
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: this one time, but basically Wisconsin back in the seventies

442
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies UM, and some of the research that did

443
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: was it was averaging between three point five and seven

444
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: shots per year taken was about what was coming at Yeah, this,

445
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: this is, this is in one area. This is never

446
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: only as qualifiers. We're all never convinced you because it's

447
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: most studies are taking place in controlled settings because he

448
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: can't just squa out in the landscape with all the

449
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: variables and get anything interesting. And so anyway, you had

450
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: this variability because they had different kind of seasons. They

451
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: sept one season was endless only, so the guys had

452
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: to be more careful when you shot that you weren't

453
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: shooting a buck, So that that kind of cuts down

454
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: how many how many shots are being fired if you

455
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: have a wide open season where anything is legal. They

456
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: were shooting a lot. They shot like almost twice of

457
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: many shots and those kind of seasons. But then I

458
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: looked at m I phone this this research from South

459
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: Carolina looked into that, and they were shooting only one

460
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: point two times for each deer they killed. And those

461
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: guys that were sitting up and basically shooting house rateful

462
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: of rest nice setups were there, touching out the shots

463
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: like a real precision type shooting. And then you had

464
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: um other scenarios. So none of these things are all equal.

465
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: You know, I'm getting that here. So so I fine,

466
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: I did was I had? So so the South Carolinians

467
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: are when they looked at this, they were shooting not much,

468
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: not much one point two shots per deer. But who

469
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: was up? Who was super high again Wisconsin man, you guys?

470
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: Yeah it was but of course to well right not

471
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: not now what Doug brings point, it's a fair point

472
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: because plus the plus they're hunting an area where guys

473
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: couldn't go in set up tripod stands, I couldn't hang

474
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: all these different things. It's probably being shot off the ground,

475
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: you know, offhand, and so the conditions weren't liked. Yeah,

476
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: it's probably more like shitty scopes the way that the

477
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: way yes old guys used to hunt. You know, I

478
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: took a lot more shots when I was younger. Yeah,

479
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: but then but then so like what I did though,

480
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: is I looked at these different variables and thought read

481
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: us range from one point to deer per shot two

482
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: over seven? So anyway at seven shots, yeah, and and

483
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: and and I just I can't understand it. I'm not

484
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: I'm not calling you a liar. I just don't understand it.

485
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: Where a lot of that comes from is that you're

486
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: shooting lover her actions, pump shots, shotguns, that kind of stuff,

487
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: some atomatics, and and they're shooting showing too that once

488
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: a guy um missed a shot, well he had follow

489
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: up shots, and like half the guy shooting at that

490
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: first shot, we're missing the shot, right, and then the

491
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: dude takes off and bang bang bang. All of a sudden,

492
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: there's lead in the air. So you can say he

493
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: does that three times, and he does that two times,

494
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: and then it gets a deer fun yeah, and you think, well,

495
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: I but I'm pulled the hunting grounds up the river

496
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: here and um Wendona, Minnesota back in the early nineties,

497
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking every time it sounds like no

498
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: shotguns one off because it shocking the only area if

499
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: it's not like they're shooting all five shots. So that's

500
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: some atomatic, you know, shotgun or pump shotgun. It was.

501
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: It was constant, and so I would I guess I'm

502
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: not that shocked by hearing that seven was average in

503
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: this one particular. There's there's one hunt that this one

504
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: on like that. Yeah, if you go read Yanni's buddy

505
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: Jack O'Connor, I'll call Jannie O'Connor Jack O'Connor. All those

506
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: guys did was shoot. Yeah, they'd crawl up on a

507
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: her to something and it would be the you know,

508
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: twenty rounds and then they'd go up and like analyze

509
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: the performance. The first shot caught it, you know, low

510
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: across the chin, second shot, the second, third, and fourth, fifth,

511
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: and sixth with them. My seventh shot really brought anchored

512
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: it down. Well, so sure, yeah, so what I did

513
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: those at average done? I thought, well, seven is obviously

514
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: throw that one out once. Yeah, that's the other extreme.

515
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: But average is out and you came up. My average

516
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: came up the three point four or five shots per second,

517
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean per per per deer. And so then I

518
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: started calculating that. I thought, well, last gun season Wisconsin,

519
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: if you use three point five point five three point

520
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: four or five shots per deer last year in Wisconsin,

521
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: we was shot close to eight hundred thousand rounds to

522
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: get to get that number of deer. We we brought

523
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: front in last last fall. And during that season that

524
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: I talked about our record season it was up in

525
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I think a million and a half shots.

526
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: And well then I went and I thought, I looked

527
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: at the top ten deer states in our country, and

528
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: that year two thousand and I came up to it's

529
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: like twelve and a half million rounds. If you're using

530
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: that as your average, we're being fired. So then so

531
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: I'm working my way back to your discussion here. You know,

532
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: I have it. It's just too staggering for me though.

533
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: It's huge. And so when when we get these discussions

534
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: about wounding, I've always maintained that in my own experience,

535
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: it's it's tougher when I look at every year i've killed.

536
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: I've killed over a hundred of them. I think when

537
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: I've shot the one is the rifle I didn't I

538
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: didn't always know if I got him or not. By that,

539
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: by the way, the dear responded, where I thought most

540
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: of your shout the bowl, I've always known if I

541
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: hit him or not. I mean, I don't think I've

542
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: ever been shocked. You know that I missed one or right,

543
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: or I hit one that that that I thought I missed,

544
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. That's a good point. Yeah, gun

545
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: hunting bull hunting. You you don't, Yeah, you don't usually

546
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: like can't tell if you you typically might you might want,

547
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: you might shoot and then not be clear on the

548
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: quality of it. Oh, that's that's common. I mean you

549
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: talked that's almost not not quite the dorm, but it's

550
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: pretty typically not a little like man, oh, it looked

551
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: like it might be a little far back, Yeah, a

552
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: little high. When you talk to guys at track deer

553
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: with with with dogs and they asked the guy, where'd

554
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: you hit this deer? And the typical bull on say

555
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: right here in the pocket and the shoulder, and they

556
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: find the deer and that's got you know, you know,

557
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: in the hand, in the hams. You know, who knows

558
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: where you know? So so so I've always thought that

559
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,479
Speaker 1: if you really get some research on this, what research

560
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: we have, and find out what the percentages are for

561
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: bull hunting versus gun hunting, I'm I'm pretty well convinced

562
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: that it's about equal. I really, Uh it's it's because

563
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: but again, what what that that that you know it's

564
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: pulled holes or my argument because all of those studies

565
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: have been basically done under pretty controlled situations. You know,

566
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: bull hunting the ones they've been able to study are

567
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: typically control situations. It's like the one that's famous for

568
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: the initial one that we often refer to. It up

569
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: here at Camp Propley, a couple hundred miles from here

570
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, and there they had um their their initial

571
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: wounding UM number percentage of deer wounded was I think

572
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: around writ in that range. But then they figured that

573
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: they realized, well, just because the deer is wounded doesn't

574
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: mean it's it's dead. It doesn't mean it's I'm not

575
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: gonna be recovered. And sure enough they found that in

576
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: that situation is a lot of hunters in that in

577
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: that camp. And these are weekend hunts. I should should

578
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: have that too, just strictly a two day hunt that

579
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: it's done. It's a real control situation. But they found

580
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: was that, um, they're average over over four thing. It's

581
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: like four different hunts they they studied, only of those

582
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: deer were never recovered. Of those deer that were shot

583
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: and hit in some location, only on average weren't recovered

584
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: taking home, taking home, you know, a guy dragged that

585
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: deer out of the alf the cants property. Now, um,

586
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: then there's also indible condition. Yeah, yeah, because you know

587
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: at Sunday at at this is on Saturday, Sunday hunt

588
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: that they did Camp Ripley Sunday afternoon. The Army basically

589
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: throws you out. You can't go back and look for

590
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: your deer if you don't have it. Tough luck, you know.

591
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: So that's what that was, the unrecovered deer was and

592
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: this was which weapon arrow that was back in the

593
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: early nineties. And so that's one study. Then the other

594
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: days they've done. One was out in Connecticut and that

595
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: suburban area. One was over Iowa in a suburban area.

596
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: And then there's like a naval weapons station out in

597
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: Maryland did one well not too long ago. They wrapped

598
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: it up about ten years ago, and there's was one

599
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: of Maryland. I think there wounding rate was um, I

600
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: think eighteen percent where these are deer that were hit

601
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: and not recovered. Now, the one in Connecticut was about

602
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: I think fourteen thirteen pcent and the one in Iowa

603
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: suburbs was about so and then then the one with

604
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: now now switching to rifle. How many of these rely

605
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 1: on self reporting? Well, they all rely on self reporting.

606
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: That's what okay. And when I earlier when I said

607
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: that no matter what you said, won't because because I

608
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: know that relies on self reporting. Yeah. But but what

609
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: they find too is self reporting typically is that if

610
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: you get the people right on the spot when they

611
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: come in. Most of these guys, like in these in

612
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: these suburban hunts, these are guys that, um, I'm pretty

613
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: sure the one and well I know the one Connecticut

614
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: was a shooting test. He had to pass the shooting

615
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: testable when they're to even be allowed to hunt. And

616
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: I think the one in Iowa had that kind of speculation. Well, yeah,

617
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: that's and then again that's in near a factor that

618
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: these are people who are dead serious bull hunters who

619
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: know that taking long shots is used to increase the risk.

620
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: But what I found interesting looking at that South Carolina

621
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: study and with a rifle, these are dead serious riflemen,

622
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: and these guys they're sitting there with basically a little

623
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: tripods and they're shooting set up there. They're typically shooting

624
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: on a fifty yards and aren't five yards, and they

625
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: found a real split once you started going beyond yards.

626
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: Even these guys were really good, they started hitting more

627
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: deer and not knowing if they hit him, losing them.

628
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: That kind of thing, but every shot taken, every deer

629
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: fired at in that study, they had dogs, they'd go

630
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: out there and look around, and and that study that

631
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: they end up finding out that they figured the wounding

632
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: it was about fit, was about wounding loss. Even with

633
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: that these really good shots shooting control settings, not taking

634
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: these long flyers, they were still you know, had a

635
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: fifteen wounding loss And a lot of those do they'd

636
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: never have found if not for the dogs going out

637
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: there and finding evidence of a hit that they thought

638
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 1: they missed, you know, because you know, you know, everyone

639
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: here has been a situations where you fired a shot

640
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: on to fit the yards across the field or whatever.

641
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: You walk over and you look around, look around, look around,

642
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: you can't find the sign, and a lot of people

643
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: would give up not not looking any further. There's no

644
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: snow cover in many cases. And that's the factor that

645
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: all these moving parts is what makes a wounding loss

646
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: so hard to ever really pinned down for sure, is

647
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: that you have so many different conditions, so many different

648
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: um ways that things can go wrong, that it's hard

649
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: to really quantify this stuff. But what we have the

650
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: qualify really show is pretty strikingly similar results. So why

651
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: I say I would, I would have a hard time

652
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: being convinced that bull is wound any more on a

653
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: percentage basis than rifles. Handful of thoughts. In keeping with

654
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: today's political atmosphere, I'm just gonna ignore the data, okay,

655
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: and just go with what I know is. I'm just

656
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 1: gonna go what I know is right. Um. But I had, yeah,

657
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One is, this isn't this is

658
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: not to me, this is not a moral argument, Okay,

659
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: Like to me, the UM, I think each person strives

660
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: to well damn sure better strive to be is effective

661
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: and human and as efficient as possible. UM. And I

662
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: think that when you go into the woods, no matter

663
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: like how high your skill set and how good your intentions,

664
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: there's always the chance that something can go wrong, and

665
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: it will if you stick at it long enough, and

666
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: you'll hit something that you don't find it just it

667
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: just happens. So by saying that one is more or

668
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: less effect one method of hunting, you know, we could

669
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: even break out crossbows and break out trad archery and

670
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,479
Speaker 1: break out um, you know, conventional archery, tackle and break

671
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: out firearms. UM. No matter how much you break it

672
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: down and start comparing them to me. It's not like

673
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: you're not like trying to find a value judgment. You're

674
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: You're not looking for like who's right, who's correct, and

675
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: who's incorrect, who's right and who's wrong. I'm not chasing

676
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: after that. So it makes it that the discussion, Um yeah,

677
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: it's an acade. It's more it's almost an academic subject,

678
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: I think. But it can and inform things I am generally.

679
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: That's one thought. Another thought is I'm generally leery of

680
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: and like just anecdotal stuff. Okay, but in a case

681
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: like this, I have so much anecdotal evidence gathered over

682
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: such a long period of time where I'm able to

683
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: rule out the inherent errors of self reporting. We're just

684
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 1: from experiences and the experiences of people who I'm very

685
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: close with and I understand their skill sets. Um, I,

686
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: you haven't changed my opinion. I feel that if you

687
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: take something like like you take something like ELK, Okay,

688
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: take something like ELK. I think that there is a

689
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: much higher rate of wound loss. And this is informed

690
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: by personal opinion as well as opinion of many other people.

691
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: There's a much higher rate of wound loss on ELK

692
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: with archery equipment than there is the firearm equip equipment.

693
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: It's like I've just I know, I just know as

694
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: bad as that sounds, well, and I'm not telling you

695
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: what to do with that. I'll not tell anybody what

696
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: to do with that piece of information. But it's the thing.

697
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 1: It's like a debate that comes up all the time.

698
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. My part number three this and

699
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: then then it's yours again. Part number three is we

700
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 1: don't know the mortality question. Okay. At one time found

701
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: I was out on a backpacking trip, well Lama backpacking,

702
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, backpacking with Lama trip in the summertime and

703
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: the Idaho Panhandle, and I lost my spoon and found

704
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: an elk carcass or elk skeleton, and was trying to

705
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: figure out what bone would be most suitable to craft

706
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: a new spoon out of that I could reach into

707
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: a freeze dry bag with. And I started looking at

708
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: the thoracic process on the vertebra, and I thought, damn,

709
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: it looks like a great spoon. So I picked up

710
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: one of the vertebra to be like the one they

711
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: had the longest rascic process, So the one that's kind

712
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: of like above the animals hump and lo and behold

713
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: embedded within the bone. The bone entirely healed around it

714
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: is a muzzy broadhead. Their slogan is bad to the bone.

715
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: I put pictures of this up on We'll put a

716
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: picture up in the show notes. But so here's the

717
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: thing growing around it. Now, the guy that shot that

718
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: arrow maybe would would probably be surprised to learn that

719
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: that thing took the hit somehow. The arrow shaft unthreaded

720
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: because it was just a naked broadhead, no piece of

721
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: shaft on it unthreaded. The elk heeled around the broadhead.

722
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: And I know that died in the winter because they

723
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: had dropped it was it died with dropped andlers. So

724
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: however long it takes to calcify, like to completely encase

725
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: a broadhead and calcified bone on your vertebra, that guy

726
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: might think, oh, he might be all depressed still about

727
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: that bully killed and couldn't find when it wasn't dead.

728
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: So that's the other thing is when we talk about

729
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: wound loss, we're just saying, like, you didn't find it.

730
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: But what we don't know is what's lethal and what's

731
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: not lethal. So that matters to me. But what you

732
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,439
Speaker 1: just the story just told, isn't that a Pro Bowl?

733
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 1: Pro Bowl? If you take a pro on kan No,

734
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: don't look at it is either. I'm just saying. What

735
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: I'm saying is in sussing out the answer which I'm

736
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: interested what I was trying to build up there one

737
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: is one. Nothing says can't change in my mind. That

738
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: was playing one too. It doesn't really matter except for

739
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: just it's good. I just like to know stuff I'm not.

740
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna like go and make like like well,

741
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: if I was like a ruler of the world and

742
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: I had all the answers in front of me, I

743
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't like go and make a decision around except for

744
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: except for in cases like, for instance, when you're there's

745
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: some bare units in Alaska where when you wound a bear,

746
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: you not your tag. That kind of thing I'm generally

747
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: in favor of. I'm open to that and in favor

748
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: of that in places you wound the animal, you're not

749
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: your tag. But that leads again into point three, because

750
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: that's under the assumption that you've removed an animal. And

751
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: what we don't know in this is it's hard to tell.

752
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell it's hard to study the survival rates.

753
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: So you fire an narrow what you get a hit.

754
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: You trail the blood, there's no blood. You start cutting circles.

755
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: You come back the next day, cut a million circles.

756
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: Can't find blood. Your body can't find blood. He brings

757
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: out his fail safe dog. The dog can't find anything. Um,

758
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: it's a dead or not. So that was That was

759
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: the part Three is like, you still don't know even

760
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: when you know. And the thing I gonna say is

761
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: that I fully agree with you on the idea that

762
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: this is not a moral discussion. I've always The other

763
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: thing I should have said too, I could have prefaced

764
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: it with, is that we're the only predator with the conscience. Yeah. Yeah,

765
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 1: We're the only predator that tries to make a science

766
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: out of how we go about the stuff. We really

767
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: try to figure out what's the best freaking way to

768
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: kill that deer every damn time, you know, down dead.

769
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: And because I think, well, when a hawk hits a rabbit,

770
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: I've been on hawk hunts and it's pretty pretty fascinating.

771
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: They're pretty good. But they have wounding loss. Brothers have

772
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: wounding loss. So I will I will never get into

773
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: this right or wrong discussion is I think that that

774
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: means bullshit is part of the part of the equation.

775
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: It's just I think hunting is we're the only ones

776
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: that worry about it as humans. So but one of

777
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: the things I'll say more thinking real quick, and then

778
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: Doug say something because dogs dogs waiting to go here. Um.

779
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: The thing I would say that about about the story

780
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: with the errow wound. One thing that I think we

781
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: can say from some of the research too, is that

782
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: a deer that's wounded with a bow and arrow is

783
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 1: much more likely to survive the wound, and and and

784
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: go on. And it might not be it's not nice,

785
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: it's not pleasant. I'm sure to carry a broad head

786
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: around in your spinal column or and your shoulder blade

787
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: or leg bones, yeah, I mean, but humans have done too.

788
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 1: And so I'm saying Jim Bridger carried carried arrowhead around

789
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: his back. I think about your dad. Your dad walked

790
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: around how many years with pellets and his Yes, so

791
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: it happens, and it's not I'm not excusing it, but

792
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, this stuff happens. And another story, remember

793
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: um from Hunted on Duck's Place first time, you and

794
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: I met was um Tyson having a bad shot on

795
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: a deer. And it was a shot that if you

796
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: made that shot with a bow and arrow, that deer

797
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: would have been healed up and pry a couple of

798
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: days and gone on never never look back. Whereas it was.

799
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: It was a high hit in the back and the

800
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: meat of the back. And I remember those hair everywhere

801
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: on the impact area and Steve, yeah, never a good sign.

802
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: And Steve went down, went after it and caught up

803
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: with it and finished it off. And so I think

804
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: if you look at that way. One of the things

805
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 1: that came out of that that UM Naval Naval Station,

806
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: Naval Weapons Station and study with the born arrow is

807
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: that they figured that the deer that were they knew

808
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 1: weren't recovered, then their wounded but not recovered was bought.

809
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: They figured about six percent of those went on to

810
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: have normal lives and just continued on with her six

811
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: six percent of the deer that that that they could

812
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: not recover the newer hit but not recovered. And then

813
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: they compared that with um the deer are hit by

814
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: motor vehicles on that base, and that was more like

815
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: an eleven percent. UM died whereas my six percent of

816
00:47:54,239 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: the born arrow ones died or that go ahead, six,

817
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: I think I have gotten that reversed. I think reverse

818
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: put on basically more you're more deer, more like to

819
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: die when they're hit by a car than they were

820
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: by a bow and arrow when they were all you know,

821
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: in the row and moving around that it was only

822
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: like six percent of the ones that were hit by

823
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: bow and arrow died and love and percent hit by

824
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: cars died. Yeah, So I think I got right now, Um,

825
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: all the ones that were hit but not recovered, other

826
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: ones that are still ones that were probably definitely ones

827
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: that were hit not recovered and died from the wound.

828
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: But that happens to you raise your hand about man,

829
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: There's so many things, and it was the first one

830
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: is well, we know guns kill more. Is a more

831
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 1: effective way of killing deer than bows are maybe not

832
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: well yeah, on an individual basis, because we kill way

833
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: more deer in a much shorter time way, more people

834
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 1: doing it, yeah, more more people doing it in greater range,

835
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: and more shots. Uh. Well, um, I know you're right

836
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: about dear um going on with arrows, and because over

837
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: the years I've killed at least a half a dozen

838
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: of the rifle that are carrying a that I've got

839
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: a wound from a bow or have an arrow in

840
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: them or whatever. Um, And those were I guess those

841
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: were that. There was another point, but I don't remember

842
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: what it was now because you went off on another

843
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: thing that that it was trailing. No. Yeah, well of

844
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: course it was your fault. Uh oh, I know what

845
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: it was. It's interesting to me, uh the comparison. One

846
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 1: of the things about bows and you're talking about vertical bows.

847
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: I think because one of the arguments now that I'm

848
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: hearing against crossbows from some vertical bow people is these

849
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: guys are taking shots that they shouldn't take and their

850
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: wounded deer and it's sort of like the opposite argument

851
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: of gone you know some gone hunters um and and

852
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: vertical bows, you know, wounding and um and that sort

853
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: of thing. So it's just it's it's just interesting how

854
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: all these things, to me, you know, melt together and

855
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: then you make your own choices on it. And I'm

856
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: that that cross bowl lingo now to say vertical bows, Yeah,

857
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: it's the cross vertical sure, because in Wisconsin to keep

858
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: fighting about it, so they kind of find a way

859
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: to distinguish the two. So they would say bows and

860
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: cross bows vertical bows come on, Doug crossbow, vertical bow,

861
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: and and it's a it's a thing. I just feel

862
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: that that word came from the crossbow community. It didn't

863
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 1: come from the bow community. No, it's from a clarific

864
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: well yeah, I don't know whither, but it just it is.

865
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: It's important to clarify because otherwise, yeah, bow bow, right,

866
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: but a bow versus across I mean a crossbows a bowl.

867
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: Well that's that's not that yeah, podcast yeah, yeah, And

868
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: the thing I think i'd say there too though in

869
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: the in the some Naval Weapons Station research they looked

870
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: at crossbows too, and it wasn't I think. I think

871
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: they actually they came out a little bit better on that.

872
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: And one of the more fast thing parts of that

873
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: study was that the UM expandable broad has actually performed

874
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: better than the standard UM injection or you know where

875
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: you put your blades and like fixed blade, Well then

876
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: I've totally your fixed plade because fixed blade my mind

877
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: is still the ones you're sharpen yourself. Replaceabule blades, yeah,

878
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: have replace full blades. I still like replaceable blades because

879
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 1: I don't like the the questioning and the worrying about,

880
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: well that thing open the way it's supposed to. But

881
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: in the study that did in Maryland that those actually

882
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: came out came up better for um, more more effective overall,

883
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: expandable expandables did. And I think that's one of the

884
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: things that I know. That's one of the things they

885
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 1: say about shooting the crossbow is to use an expandable blade. Yeah,

886
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: and then then you get into a make sure they

887
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: don't fly open when they get shot down in the

888
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: bowl because it's such an explosion coming all those things

889
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: compared to irregular bowl. But um, just the air resistance

890
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: well if plus it's such a hard impact coming out,

891
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: like those are hundred sixty five pound of you know

892
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: draw weights are she those those arrows out so um

893
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: but see like and seeing like getting back to the

894
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: elk point of view, that's where you and I still

895
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: want a greekause I think, well, I've seen guys out

896
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: in the west is real flyers on elk you know,

897
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: long Helvish long ways, and I think you started to

898
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 1: change my mind. Damn with those guys. They're hitting these

899
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: big these these are big animals and they can God,

900
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: they can take a polling and nunny and show you know.

901
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: And but you know, I like the fact that, at

902
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: least in our modern era of hunting, that we're talking

903
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: about these things and trying to figure out what's what's ethical,

904
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: what's an ethical shot? And one of the things I

905
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: had fun though that Deering Deering magazine back the nineties,

906
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: we actually did a poll on this, trying to figure

907
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: out from our readers, you know, what's what's um an

908
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: effective range for the bow and arrow in your mind?

909
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: What what's what do you feel comfortable shooting at? And

910
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: the thing that was always interesting was that everyone's just

911
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: perfectly conscientious ethical hunter. When that deer is at less

912
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: than forty yards of the bow and arrow and less

913
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: than let's say yards of the rifle, she just started

914
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: putting the big antlers on him, the leads in the

915
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 1: air problem. And so I always think, well, you know,

916
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: I brought a couple of quotes here that where we

917
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: like to think for making progress in our our approach

918
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: on i'll be you know, on shot selection. And you know,

919
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: Steve Steele Prian know this one who who wrote this.

920
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: It is a good rule always to try to get

921
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: as near the game as possible. At the same time,

922
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: I am a great believer in Poulter burning, and if

923
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: I cannot get near, I will generally try a shot anyhow,

924
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 1: if there's any chance the rifle curing it to it.

925
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 1: Janny O'Connor anyone. I guess Leopold, but not Leopold. I

926
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: got I got. I got that one too. That's my

927
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: next quote. Who would be left? I don't know, elmur Keith,

928
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt big believer in powder burns hot.

929
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: But he was from that. He was from that well

930
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: was of just getting the let out and the idea

931
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: that well, if you don't shoot, you certainly won't get it.

932
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: Horn Today too when you read about horn Today's expeditions,

933
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: because when he's doing museum collecting still he's like he's

934
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: museum collecting, but they would just kind of get where

935
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: they're in the ballpark and everybody just starts a cracking. Yeah,

936
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: there's something to be said, I think right now in

937
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: this conversation about the sake of being of getting close

938
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: to just being a percent on your shot, not because

939
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: of the ethics, but because you want to be efficient

940
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: and just be a good hunter, and even though there's

941
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: like say giant antlers, right, but if you're a poor hunter,

942
00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: that's I think when you're like, I'm gonna let him

943
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: fly because this is my one opportunity. I think if

944
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: you've achieved a certain level of hunting prowess, you will

945
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 1: say it is too far. Either I will get closer

946
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: now so that I know a percent when I shoot,

947
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill that thing, or I will let it

948
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: back walk and I will return tomorrow and you know,

949
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: change my position, my tactics or whatever to get closer.

950
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I think, And there's a

951
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: certain point where hunters, you know, don't just let lead

952
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: fly because you know whatever ethics out the window. Like

953
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: you said, we're the only ones to think about that.

954
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: If you're just trying to be like the best hunter

955
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: out there, at some point you're just gonna say no

956
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: to be successful, I can't shoot right now. Yeah, I

957
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: think there's there's an element of ethics, there's an element

958
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: of aesthetics, there's an element of pragmatism being then uh,

959
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: I would like, yeah, if I like to think that

960
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: it bothers most people that you would cripple some umping

961
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: up and not find it, so you want to be

962
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: eliminating that. Um, any self respecting person right wants to

963
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 1: be good at what they do, and they put their

964
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: mind to something and become good at it. A strong

965
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: mark or of you not being good at it is

966
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: that you wound stuff and it runs off when you're

967
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: supposed to be killing it. And then pragmatism is like,

968
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: you want to get the thing. So if you're looking

969
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: at man, I could take a poke at five yards

970
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: of my rifle. I don't know if I'll get it

971
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: or not. Um, I'm gonna get to where I know

972
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get this thing, and I know damn sure

973
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill it it too. But it takes a

974
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: level of experience to be able to in that moment

975
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: make that decision, make all those decisions. I think when

976
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: people let the flyers go, when people to start blouching

977
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: for no reason, is when uh, they probably can't see

978
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: their way through to getting closer. Maybe perhaps well another

979
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: quote I wanted to share with you guys. Um, this

980
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: is from but the same era a little bit later.

981
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: But one large white tail looked at me at seventy yards.

982
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: He jumped at the flesh of my bowl, my arrow

983
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: stuck in the ground on a second jump. If he

984
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: had stood still, I would have hit him in the neck.

985
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: This is this is written Leopold. Yeah, seventy yards seven yards.

986
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: He took a poke at a hundred yards yeah, and

987
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: so like that archery well see, and so that's that's

988
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: the thing I I'm not. I'm not taking cheap shots

989
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: at these two guys because I think we had these

990
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: discussions on all the host and I've talked about in

991
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: Doug's backyard. Um, I know they're a guy. I know

992
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: my my kickabilities. I know at sixty yards of bow

993
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: and arrow, I start falling apart. Some days I'll be

994
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: out there. I can drop him in pretty nice at

995
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: sixty yards. Next day I can't. So I know that's

996
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: not for me a realistic range. But I do know

997
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: guys who can time in and time out nail a

998
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: hundred yards shots the bow and arrow. But I still

999
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: will always say you're still coming on that dear to

1000
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: be stand there and assuming if a wide open shot,

1001
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: well that aero arcs and like I don't know what

1002
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: it is on a compound bow today is shooting a

1003
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: seventy five pounding cross compound bowl. But I do know

1004
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: on the cross bowl I saw it there to day,

1005
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: were at a hundred yards. A typical cross bowl has

1006
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: to arc at above the site plane to drop it

1007
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: into the hundred yards. Not think this guy is making

1008
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,959
Speaker 1: a his Aultland just claims about how accurate those cross

1009
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: bowls are. I think, I don't know. I just have

1010
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: a hard time believing most guys using the cross bowl

1011
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: can get those kind of shots to drop in there,

1012
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: and and and learned really quickly that's not realistic, because

1013
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: I think we Steve and I had a little conversation,

1014
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: just a quick question. I think Steve got back to

1015
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: me out. But I get I get fascinated with lk

1016
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: hunting because I think I when I've been elkinning, I

1017
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: can see where you'd have more winning loss than what

1018
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: I have gotten used to hunting deer from a tree

1019
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,479
Speaker 1: stand because hunting deer from a tree standard typically getting

1020
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 1: them in their tight quarters. And I think nothing, very

1021
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: very few things I've ever killed go down faster than

1022
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: I h a broad head through the lungs at twenty yards.

1023
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just deadly effective. But I think when

1024
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: I started elk hunting back in two thousand five. With

1025
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: the ball and arrow, nothing is nothing is fixed. You know,

1026
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: you get used that tree stand situation where you can

1027
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 1: control your shots, and control with that rena shoot all

1028
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: those kind of things. You can start controlling a little bit.

1029
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: These through discipline. Doesn't happen with all hunting. It's happening fast.

1030
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: You're you're on your ground, you're at eye level, wind changes,

1031
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: there's everything is. This is making changes fast. And I

1032
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,479
Speaker 1: realized this is tough ship. This is a lot harder

1033
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: than anything I've ever done in the white tail woods.

1034
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: That's where I start thinking. I last year I killed

1035
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: my first from a tree stand and I and I

1036
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: almost felt like cheating because it was so much easier

1037
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: to control that shot than that was when I was

1038
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: on the ground at eye level trying to pick a

1039
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 1: spot to the brush on an animal that you're waiting

1040
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: for the coming to a spot where you can stop

1041
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 1: it quick, get the shot off. I think, what were

1042
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: you set up on? I was on a wallow early seasons,

1043
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: like the fourth day of the season is Labor Day

1044
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: weekend National Forest. Yeah, And and that got me thinking though,

1045
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: that what time that bull show up? I think I

1046
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: shot him around six o'clock and evening, six o'clock evening

1047
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: came in the wall. Ye, he just stood there perfectly, um,

1048
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: not quite broadside, but he has turned a little bit,

1049
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 1: give me a perfect right down the pipe, you know.

1050
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: And then and then he he jumped up, went up

1051
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: the hill about forty yards and down was that wallow.

1052
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: When he found that wallow wasn't muddied up, um a

1053
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: little bit, but was interesting. This is one of the

1054
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: fastest things I loved about that experience was that he

1055
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: never actually made to the wallow itself. He stopped me

1056
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 1: in fifteen years of pill and this little just muddy,

1057
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: little bitty seepage type stuff coming up, and he sat

1058
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: through those nose right down the mud and you can

1059
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: just hear them sucking the water out there, a little

1060
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: little bitty rivulets coming down that mountain side, and it

1061
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: was just fastening as hell. And then he just stand

1062
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: and look around and his face me the whole time.

1063
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: And finally he has turned a little bit game the open,

1064
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, side shot and I but compared to hunting

1065
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: off the ground, I said, almost felt like God. And

1066
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: then I actually had guys, Well, yeah, here's the problem. Yeah,

1067
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: go ahead, there is no problem because it might have

1068
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: felt easy, but look at the mana. I mean, you

1069
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 1: did a good bit of woodsmanship to get in the situation.

1070
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: Definitely went out identified an active wallow. Make no mistake,

1071
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: I do not feel guilty. I mean, I mean I

1072
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: say that, I say it felt like, oh jeez, that

1073
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: was so easy. But but I know, damn well it wasn't,

1074
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: because that was like twelve years in the making, you know,

1075
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, to get that where I actually foster, but

1076
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: you could actually feel confident putting a tree stand up

1077
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: and going to trouble putting a tree stand up on

1078
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: this area we hunt. It's kind of I didn't didn't

1079
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: think about in most cases, just such a waste of time.

1080
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: You know, elk are so unpredictable to moving here and

1081
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: there and pure he found one. Oh you'll see nothing.

1082
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: It's like this. You know, it's possible there's no elk

1083
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: within two miles, yeah, three miles. And and so I

1084
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: just find all those kind of discussions of a shot selection,

1085
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: how you do set up so that kind of stuff interesting,

1086
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: and then I get then you get into the thing

1087
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: you're talking about with like that that bowl walking around

1088
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: with the arrow wound you think, well, was he really

1089
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: suffering the whole time or not? I mean that thing

1090
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:46,919
Speaker 1: wound heal over and how much? I mean, I can't

1091
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: feel good. But then you read some of the researchman's

1092
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: done on humans and how humans react, you know, like

1093
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: soldiers in battle, and there's just some really fastening research

1094
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: from Anzio or your dad served where they this doctor

1095
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: was keeping notes on these guys that were wounded, you know,

1096
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: how much how much pain are you in? And they

1097
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: found a lot cases that, um, excuse me, these guys

1098
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: had just awful wounds and they barely felt it because

1099
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: it wasn't a shock because he could talk to these guys,

1100
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: ask them, what are you feeling doing this kind of stuff?

1101
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: But it was not the kind of bad pain that

1102
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: you'd expect. And then um, they learned too that snize

1103
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: guys who were mad at who just just wild with

1104
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: um apparent pain they could come down with with a

1105
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: with a drug to make them sleepy basically, and and

1106
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 1: what that's what they started to I started to think

1107
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: and figure out what it wasn't so much the pain

1108
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 1: that was was hard on these guys. It was the anguish,

1109
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: the thread that what they're like, you know, the Clint

1110
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: Eastwood movie. Um, young forgiven. You know, a hell of

1111
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: a thing killing man, You're taking way all of your

1112
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 1: head and all even will have. And humans understand that,

1113
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 1: you know, they're eighteen years old, knowing that this is

1114
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: probably gona kill them, and they're just it has to

1115
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: be just devastating to them. So that's where I always

1116
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: trying to balance all the stuff as I'm hunting, thinking,

1117
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: let's not let's not tire ourselves some knots over this.

1118
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, we want to be good, ealthical hunters, but

1119
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: let's realize that the wilds is a tough place to

1120
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: live and these animals suffer loss stuff that, you know,

1121
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: but humans due too, humans awful tough too. So I

1122
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: don't know, I find a lot of stuff that fascinating.

1123
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: Pick up the tree stand thing because you later had

1124
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: an interaction with someone about your tree STANDLK. Yeah, so

1125
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: I so I. One of the reasons I emailed Steve was, um,

1126
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: this guy um writes back to me, and he actually

1127
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: says to me he tried to make feel a little

1128
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: bit guilty about using a tree stand to kill an elk.

1129
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: And he says to me, well, what do you think

1130
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 1: Steve Rinella would think, and I don't know well, but

1131
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: but my first reaction was, well, I don't claim to

1132
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: know Steve as well as I know um other friends

1133
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: in my life. But I think Renal strikes me as

1134
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: a practical guy that if you put your time in

1135
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: and you find a find a good spot and you

1136
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: I'll hunt it that way, go for it. Yeah, dude,

1137
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm my brother has he's got an idea of the

1138
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: Hunt Purity Score. Okay, So it allows like, uh, it

1139
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: allows you to to have many to to to factor

1140
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: in many different variables just to then arrive at a

1141
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 1: fixed score. And you can have twenty inputs and do

1142
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 1: a Hunt Purity score. So when I run your situation

1143
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: through my hunt, my personal Hunt Purity Score calculator unguided. Okay,

1144
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: So you're just out there, dude, out there on his own,

1145
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: not relying on a guide because you have a guy

1146
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: to like, Oh, yeah, I killed it. We bagle to

1147
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: bowl in and shot him. But the guy did everything

1148
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: and he probably have shot the thing better than you

1149
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: did too. You were, if anything, you were a hindrance

1150
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 1: on the whole process. Right, there was a trigger man.

1151
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,479
Speaker 1: So that's not the ace Okay, not that you can't.

1152
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 1: Still you could have a guy and still score a

1153
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 1: great hunt purity scored as you put in all the

1154
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: factors that go into a hunt purity score. A right,

1155
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: it's not it's like just one of what what's your problem?

1156
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: Do you give me the Latvian smirk? No, I'm just

1157
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: enjoying this score, if there was such a thing, So

1158
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: and each each and each to his own right. So

1159
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: when I'm running Pat Durkins, when I'm when I'm giving

1160
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: a hunt purity score to Pat Durkins, tree stand out come.

1161
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: This is what I'm thinking about self guided public land,

1162
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: public land. Not that you can't have a great hunt

1163
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: purity scoring in private land. Done a lot of it myself,

1164
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 1: But in the Hunt Purity score calculator that scores high

1165
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: because here you are dealing with a lot of competition,

1166
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: things outside of your control. So it's it's like an

1167
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: added difficulty, right, Um, a little bit of woodsmanship. There's

1168
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: a lot of wabbles, I'll there. There are more wallows

1169
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 1: out there that are not going to be visited by

1170
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 1: a bull tonight than there are wallows. What the hell

1171
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: you've smirked about, Doug Man? I feel like you need

1172
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: to keep my face down and us there are more wallows.

1173
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: There are more walls in the woods that what was

1174
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: the date he killed bull, September? September four, Okay, there

1175
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: are more September four. Go to the state Pat was

1176
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: in and go have a monitor, get a volunteer to

1177
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:31,959
Speaker 1: sit on every single wallow in that state, and more

1178
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: than than than there's gonna be more people whose wallow

1179
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: doesn't get hit by an elk that night than does. Definitely,

1180
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: So he had to pick the pick the right wallow.

1181
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: Here he is self guided in a place you hunted

1182
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: a little bit, finds a wallow, determined that this is

1183
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: the this is where I'm gonna stake my claim. Presumably

1184
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: you had to tote that tree stand through a lot

1185
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,959
Speaker 1: of uncomfortable to areas on a hot day. So there's

1186
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: your hunt purity score climbs up. Now you had to

1187
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: pick where you're gonna hang this stand factor and in wind,

1188
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: not just wind, but how the wind is going to

1189
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: change as the thermal shift, as the air starts to cool,

1190
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 1: as the sun begins to set. So Pats running all

1191
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: this ship in his head as his hunt purity score climbs,

1192
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,680
Speaker 1: like I just like nowhere in it. There's nowhere in

1193
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 1: it where I'm looking. I'm like, man, that's a real shrinker,

1194
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: a real hunt purity score shrinker. The bow and arrow

1195
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,879
Speaker 1: gives it a higher hunt purity score, and my personal

1196
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 1: estimation that gives it a higher hunt purity score than

1197
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 1: if it were versus a higher hunt when he made

1198
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 1: your own arrows and napt your own heads, higher hunt

1199
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 1: purity score, many things. Going to a hut you could have.

1200
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 1: You could make your own bow, make your own string,

1201
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,080
Speaker 1: make your own arrow shafts, nap your own head. You

1202
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 1: are you make your own hunting clothes, find a road

1203
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:05,040
Speaker 1: kill turkey, make your own fletching, and still have a

1204
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:09,560
Speaker 1: real low hunt purity score depending on the other inputs.

1205
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: So that in and of itself, right, But like the

1206
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 1: hunt you're describing to me is has is very pure. Yeah,

1207
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 1: I like the sounds of it. Thank you, so we ourselves.

1208
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 1: It was a great story to read too. I really

1209
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: enjoyed those those columns about it. Yeah, it was great.

1210
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:31,560
Speaker 1: And and you kept your nerves because you know what,

1211
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 1: Oftentimes when something's coming in you don't get calmer, No,

1212
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: not especially not. Sometimes it's almost beneficial to have something

1213
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: happened fast. And this one actually played over about five minutes.

1214
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: Where he came in, I thought I was gon nail

1215
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 1: him right away, and then he came in, came right

1216
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: too many straight on shooting turns and walks right street

1217
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: at me, and then I had let down twice. And

1218
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 1: it's just a fun experience. You know, everything I factor in.

1219
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 1: A lot of people probably don't, but I do. Whether

1220
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,680
Speaker 1: it was aware of you or not, Yeah, he had

1221
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: no ideas there. That counts a lot in my personal

1222
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:13,679
Speaker 1: hunt periody calculator set up. I'm interested about the tree

1223
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 1: stands set up relative to the wall of downhill because

1224
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 1: you're playing a downhill thermal. No, you know, I I

1225
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 1: looked into everything around that figure out where where I

1226
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: could put up a stand and have a decent chance,

1227
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: and I end up having to go up a pill

1228
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: from that wall, and knowing that as the thermal start dropping,

1229
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: if anything's coming down from blow, I'm not gonna have

1230
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: a chance. It'll just be going down. And that was

1231
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: my fear, is that yes, they come from down hill

1232
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: where I think they come from most likely, or all

1233
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: I could hope is be up on the sidehill more

1234
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 1: or across the way more and filter through that area.

1235
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 1: But the thing is too, I sometimes I when I'm

1236
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: hunting white tails too, snow situations, you can't always predict

1237
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 1: for there to come from. You think you can, but

1238
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 1: then and then case the bull came exactly from where

1239
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 1: I did not expect him. He was uphill from me,

1240
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 1: and I heard a twig snap and then he look

1241
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: up and here's this bull ship. There's a bull. And

1242
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 1: I haven't had book fever like that in a long time,

1243
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 1: where even though I've been el cunning a lot and

1244
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 1: had a lot of vin corners, that one that's really

1245
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 1: had me jacked up. And then by the time I

1246
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: got right, I could shoot. Though I was, I wasn't calm.

1247
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean that hurts till hammering, but it was. I

1248
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,559
Speaker 1: will always make a point like a trade show, as

1249
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: if I see like um I've seen like Tiffany Lakowski

1250
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 1: makes some hell of hell of good shots on Dear

1251
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 1: Cariboo and elk and I walked up to me one

1252
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: time and I said, you know, I know you take

1253
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 1: a lot of ship from people because you know, she's

1254
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 1: a pretty young, pretty girl, blonde girl. I think sometimes

1255
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 1: she um comes across dits it to some people. But

1256
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 1: you watch some of the shots that girls made on TV,

1257
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: and I think that girl's got some blood, some real

1258
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: ice veins where because I've seen guys blow those kind

1259
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 1: of shots. Yeah, And I so I respect that because

1260
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 1: I think that the pull off a show like that,

1261
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 1: especially the camera over your back and along with on

1262
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: on you know, basically what's what's at stake here and

1263
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: you're on make a big investment on hunt likes that

1264
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 1: and the time involved then you pulled off. I mean

1265
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 1: that's commendable. I respect that because I know I've I've

1266
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: blown those kind of shots. I mean who hasn't. And

1267
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: so anyway, so like I made that shot that night

1268
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: and that boll piled up, like you know, forty yards away.

1269
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 1: I watched the whole thing. Damn. I felt good. Yeah,

1270
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: and those kind of moments just you know, I think

1271
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 1: that's why we're out here and I'll never That's why

1272
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 1: I said that. I made the comment that I um

1273
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: felt a little guiltycause it seems so easy. But I

1274
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,639
Speaker 1: think it's not really guilty, just that you know, it's

1275
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: not really easy. You know, you know better, you know

1276
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: how hard to get those shots and no get those

1277
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: situations that work out and how many situations don't work out?

1278
01:12:56,479 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, when you're out there just getting ground down

1279
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: by this stuations that don't work out. When something does

1280
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 1: work really good, it's almost like you feel like you've

1281
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: stepped into like you walked into a hallucination, that you're

1282
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: hallucinating that it worked. It's that surprising you, Like I

1283
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 1: actually just got close to that elk and ran an

1284
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,760
Speaker 1: arrow through its lungs and it fell over dead. It's

1285
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: more plausible that I'm hallucinating right now than that just happened. Um,

1286
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: we've been talking about thermals. I want to explain it

1287
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: because I feel like some people might not get we're

1288
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: talking about so when you're thribles happen when you're in it.

1289
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 1: I mean you can, you can have thermals without topography,

1290
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 1: but I think you kind of bank on and in

1291
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: mountainous country is that you know, warm air rises. So

1292
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you this, pound just telling Joe blow out. There.

1293
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 1: Warm air rises. So in the morning, when the sun

1294
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: starts to come up and the day starts to heat up,

1295
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:58,800
Speaker 1: you're generally gonna wind up having uphill winds. And then

1296
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: in the evening, the sunsets and the air cools you're

1297
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 1: gonna have, you know, it's gonna switch. Sometimes we will

1298
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: get set up where we're gonna do a stock on

1299
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 1: an animal, and you'll just sit around and wait, depending

1300
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: on where it is and the best approach, you'll sit

1301
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 1: around and wait for when the thermal shift, because you'll

1302
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: know that at some point today. I know that like

1303
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,640
Speaker 1: at whatever time, you know, whatever time it happened the

1304
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:29,600
Speaker 1: night before or whenever the evening sets on, that the

1305
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 1: wind's gonna shift, possibly to the point that it overrides

1306
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: the normal predominant wind direction. But sometimes you just have

1307
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: like so much wind, if there's a weather pattern moving

1308
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 1: through or whatever, you can have so much wind that

1309
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 1: that sort of natural wind, not natural less with the

1310
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 1: right word for it, but just that that general wind

1311
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 1: direction conspires with the thermals to just make swirling air,

1312
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 1: which is very frustrating when it's not up or down.

1313
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,839
Speaker 1: It's just everywhere we live and die had by the thermals.

1314
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,719
Speaker 1: When I got it in Colorado and a particular spot

1315
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 1: which was kind of a good example of the morning

1316
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 1: hunt because in the morning to usually have a downhill thermal,

1317
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 1: you know, just because it's like, you know, it's like

1318
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 1: the coldest rite at sunrise or whatever, thirty minutes before sunrise,

1319
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 1: it's you know, the coldest part maybe, So you got

1320
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:20,600
Speaker 1: that downhill thermal. But we had this knob that you

1321
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 1: could kind of sit on, and it was I don't know,

1322
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: at least a thousand feet down to this hay field,

1323
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: and these elk would be out in this hay field,

1324
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, and we actually couldn't hunt out there, so

1325
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons we hadn't just you know,

1326
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:33,800
Speaker 1: gone and ambushed him down there. But they would be

1327
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 1: coming towards us, you know, as it got light and

1328
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 1: coming up onto that hill. But thermals like right at

1329
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 1: your back, so you have to sit there and wait

1330
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 1: and wait and wait and wait and wait, and they'd

1331
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 1: be screaming and ripping, and you're just like sitting there

1332
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 1: with your puffer just watching it, watching it and just

1333
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,719
Speaker 1: hoping for the day to warm up before they quit muglin.

1334
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,639
Speaker 1: And so many times, I mean you'd wait sometimes still

1335
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:56,519
Speaker 1: eight thirty nine, I mean, even sitting up there for

1336
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 1: two plus hours, and then finally you just like you

1337
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 1: start feeling that constant you know, uphill thermal, and we

1338
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 1: would just bail off that hill, you know, trying not

1339
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 1: to break a leg as we ran down in there,

1340
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:11,719
Speaker 1: you know, and then we'll start calling. But you mentioned

1341
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 1: that some place that have so much wind that when

1342
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 1: I went to the guy in North Park for a year,

1343
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 1: it's just a windy part of Colorado, like up there

1344
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:23,599
Speaker 1: by Walden. And I remember like halfway through the elk

1345
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 1: season being like, I seriously haven't used my wind chapter

1346
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: or thought about a thermal for a month because it

1347
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:31,840
Speaker 1: was just constant, like every day You're just like, oh,

1348
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 1: the winds out of the east. It's gonna be out

1349
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 1: of the east all day. You know. We never thought

1350
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:40,600
Speaker 1: about thermal's there. I'll tell another good thermal's trick is

1351
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 1: a creek. Well, you know, a creek one of the

1352
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,680
Speaker 1: daytime cool the air above it, and you could have

1353
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:50,719
Speaker 1: a wind direction going some direction or another. You dropped

1354
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 1: down into a creek bed and you'll find that it's

1355
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 1: a down wind that there's a strong down wind current

1356
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 1: created by that water. And you can creep up creek

1357
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 1: beds or streams that are flowing and be the whole

1358
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 1: time in nose hitting you like wind hitting you in

1359
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 1: the face as you go upstream, even though the wind

1360
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,679
Speaker 1: is different, hunted yards up the hill. I was once

1361
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 1: creeping up a creek on the north side of it

1362
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 1: in the timber, probably a foot to eighteen inches of snow,

1363
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 1: powdery snow salent as convening. I'm probably fifty yards above

1364
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 1: the bottom of the creek and we're trying to catch

1365
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: up these elk there feeding in the quakies on the

1366
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 1: south facing slope, pretty narrow canyon, and we're working our

1367
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 1: way up and we get to the elk. We get

1368
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: all the way so we're exactly um, you know, parallel

1369
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 1: to them, and I'm feeling the wind and got just

1370
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:43,640
Speaker 1: a nice downhill thermal and we're just like there's no

1371
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 1: clear shots, but just like twenty cows uf there and

1372
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 1: we're just waiting for a good shot. And all of

1373
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 1: a sudden, I see a couple of noses pop up,

1374
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 1: you know. I'm like, what, there's no way, you know.

1375
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, it is like we're freezing here. I can

1376
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 1: just feel it going down towards the creek, and eventually

1377
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 1: they bust. Three years later, but I think we killed

1378
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 1: a cow. But I think what actually happen is that

1379
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 1: the third will came down, pushed our scent to the

1380
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 1: creek bottom, and then instead of just keeping flowing down

1381
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 1: the creek, it must have just gotten onto that warm

1382
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 1: hillside and the sun was hitting the south face, and

1383
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:19,800
Speaker 1: and it carried it up right to him. I mean, yeah,

1384
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 1: you will sometimes have stuff with you or you just

1385
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 1: can't understand how it with you, and it's yeah, stuff

1386
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:33,479
Speaker 1: like that probably and even argues, well, I'll be like

1387
01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 1: who moved? Who moved? Someone moved the spot I still

1388
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 1: have done were like Bob full Cross, you student demonstrations

1389
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 1: with with air currents where you use a smoke bomb

1390
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 1: and you know to shoal when you think it's going

1391
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 1: this way, like, well it goes that way for a while,

1392
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 1: and then it just churched, moving moving off again. Hard

1393
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 1: hard to play that stuff. Pet, tell me why the

1394
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 1: old time traditional deer camps are disappearing. That's been one

1395
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:08,639
Speaker 1: that I've you know, being the settlement of sap I am.

1396
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,640
Speaker 1: I always think that's how how deer hunting should be.

1397
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 1: Were you pulling into a camp for basically the whole

1398
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 1: nine day season like they used to do. You know

1399
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin used to take trains up north and what's

1400
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 1: happened is that, um, we made travel. I think a

1401
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:26,560
Speaker 1: big factors. There's many factors, of course, but one of

1402
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 1: the big factors is that travel is so convenient. You

1403
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,599
Speaker 1: can now hop in your car anywhere in Wisconsin, basically

1404
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:35,320
Speaker 1: up north in five hours, and then you can be

1405
01:19:35,439 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 1: back home Sunday evening really easily. It's not not a

1406
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 1: big trip anymore. Even when I was a kid in

1407
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 1: the seventies going deer hunting, Wohane highways going north and

1408
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 1: Wisconsin we're all two lane highways, and so the trip

1409
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 1: up north was it was kind of endurance thing. You

1410
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: just kind of staying right along and those two lane highways,

1411
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 1: waiting to pass people all time, and just so when

1412
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 1: you got up there, you're in no hurry to come back.

1413
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:01,360
Speaker 1: You want to stay up there. And you think, well,

1414
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,000
Speaker 1: if that's how it was in the seventies, can you

1415
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 1: imagine what it was like back in the fourties and

1416
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 1: fifties where guys would have to drive up there and

1417
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:08,560
Speaker 1: not always be able to even get down in the

1418
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:10,599
Speaker 1: road to their camp. You know, they had to get

1419
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: neighbor to get a tractor and take them down and

1420
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 1: haul them in. And so I think that's a big

1421
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: factor that you know, in our our society we have

1422
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 1: now with a great transportation, really reliable vehicles, people just

1423
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: don't have to go and spend that kind of time

1424
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 1: in the camp. And then you have the other factors

1425
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 1: going on in recent decades, is that, well, the old

1426
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 1: guys um it was worth going up north in northern Wisconsin,

1427
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: othern Michigan and in the Minnesota because uh, there's a

1428
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 1: good deer hunting. It was gotten tougher. You know, the

1429
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 1: forest matured, and we have always factors like that. We're

1430
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 1: you know that things made dear. And then we'll look

1431
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 1: at the case of our very own dog, Dere exactly, Doug,

1432
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:52,720
Speaker 1: when when when correct me? If I'm wrong, Doug, you

1433
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 1: certainly will. Dog was a boy, his old man went

1434
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: to northern deer camp. That's right around the farm. If

1435
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: you saw a deer, you talked about it. That's right,

1436
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 1: You're like, holy ship, we saw a deer, and everyone

1437
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,280
Speaker 1: for deer season drove up. Now you got how many

1438
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:15,959
Speaker 1: deer for square whatever more than for square mile of habitat,

1439
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 1: and how and what's the what's the what's the stocking

1440
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 1: or the ratio of deer per unit of land in

1441
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 1: the north was much lower. Yeah, I mean, so the

1442
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: deer came to you. You don't need to go to

1443
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:32,680
Speaker 1: the deer. I'm a deer magnet. Lost to me. You

1444
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:34,800
Speaker 1: guys were done at Dougs in two thousand and fifteen.

1445
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,200
Speaker 1: I think it was right gun season. Um. I killed

1446
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 1: a nice buck that year, done about ten miles from

1447
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 1: Doug's place and my uncle's farm. And the only reason

1448
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:45,640
Speaker 1: I'm telling that is because when I drove over to

1449
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,479
Speaker 1: the text or to get get um that the lymphing

1450
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:52,679
Speaker 1: was taken out for the CWD testing, I missed the turn,

1451
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 1: couldn't find the place, and I stopped a hunter on

1452
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:57,599
Speaker 1: the road who was just getting ready to walk down

1453
01:21:57,640 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 1: into this field. I got talking to him. Well, he's

1454
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:04,200
Speaker 1: from Hayward, Wisconsin, which is way up north. And the

1455
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 1: reason he's done in Doug's backyard basically because the deer

1456
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 1: hunting up in Hayward sucks all the way. Yeah, that

1457
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:15,680
Speaker 1: the hunt of public piece of property over in the

1458
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 1: Bear Valley. Uh. And and then that's what's happened, you know,

1459
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 1: between that switching the habitat where the habitat don install

1460
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin favors a deer more than up north, and

1461
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: you have it's it's you know, the guys you still

1462
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:32,640
Speaker 1: hunt up there, they typically aren't going in for um

1463
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 1: five days. Thanksgiving used to be a real thing where

1464
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 1: you'd go up there and you arrive our Friday before

1465
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 1: a gun season, set up camp and you won't come

1466
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:43,280
Speaker 1: back till the following weekend or Sunday night. And people

1467
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 1: are logging the north with much much more logging, much

1468
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:49,519
Speaker 1: more logging back then. Now the logging isn't isn't keeping

1469
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: up with the forest maturations. So the forests keep getting

1470
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 1: older and older and older, and leus deer habitat and

1471
01:22:55,760 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 1: and so I've never surprised all those things. Actor And

1472
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 1: if there was good dear, if deer thriving grows easy thriving,

1473
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 1: you know, and those areas are just tough for now.

1474
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 1: So I think those those two factors that can probably

1475
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 1: the biggest reasons. And plus I think there's just a

1476
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:15,360
Speaker 1: lot of people just don't like having um a far

1477
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:17,960
Speaker 1: away camp to take care of you. There's a lot

1478
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:19,960
Speaker 1: of maintenance on on any kind of building once you

1479
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 1: once you put up building on a land three miles away. Yeah,

1480
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:26,560
Speaker 1: I've pat there a lot taking care of it, and

1481
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 1: people I think, people like my generation, at least me,

1482
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:31,599
Speaker 1: I don't care to take be taking care of stuff

1483
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 1: all time. I just you know, show up someplace and

1484
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 1: I sleep all that I know to sleep on the

1485
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: back of my truck, then maintain a shack year round,

1486
01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:43,840
Speaker 1: you know. For deer hunting. That's this way I am well.

1487
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 1: And hunting has changed too, I mean, you know the

1488
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:50,599
Speaker 1: increase in bow hunting and um, you know up north,

1489
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 1: down by us whatever, and there's a I mean there's

1490
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 1: always that talk about the loss of um more of

1491
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 1: loss of deer hunters, fewer deer licenses being sold, but yeah,

1492
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 1: there's an increase in bowl licenses. So it's just changing

1493
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 1: and the style of hunting is changing, and yeah, there's

1494
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 1: no you don't do the community deer drives like we

1495
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 1: used to do, and that used to be a big

1496
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 1: thing up north. Used to drive along those those rural

1497
01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 1: roads in Building Wisconsin seed lines of people lined up

1498
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 1: waiting to go in and do a big push. And

1499
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 1: just you know, we just don't hunt that way much anymore.

1500
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:23,720
Speaker 1: But you lament it, oh, I do, just because I

1501
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 1: I think there was a cool time and I um,

1502
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 1: I still do a series um going out in was

1503
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 1: ten years now, where I travel around the different parts

1504
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 1: of the country and visit deer camps because I think

1505
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: I'd like to document while it's still around. You know,

1506
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,840
Speaker 1: it's the Wisconsin to the Minnesota, go down Salt, visit

1507
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: some third deer camps, because even down there is not

1508
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:47,639
Speaker 1: not that easy to maintain those traditions for a long

1509
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:49,800
Speaker 1: for a long time, you know, you know, to go

1510
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 1: generation after generation and maintain the hunting interest. I excuse

1511
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: my my own family as an example. I think, well,

1512
01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 1: my dad hunted a little bit just to get me going,

1513
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:02,120
Speaker 1: but he dropped off. You know, by the time I

1514
01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 1: was coming along where he was, he wasn't active hunting anymore.

1515
01:25:05,120 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 1: But out of my four brothers, but me and my

1516
01:25:07,479 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: three brothers, I'm the only one that hunts. And I

1517
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 1: think a lot of people in our generation just don't

1518
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 1: don't have the interest and that I look at our

1519
01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 1: hunter demographics and that's not looking all that great for

1520
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: the future. So you think that's a part of Americana

1521
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: that's kind of slipping away on us in some areas.

1522
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:26,720
Speaker 1: And some areas, yeah, and I think like in the

1523
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, in the Midwest, the old idea that you

1524
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 1: had these sort of unsettled wild lands in the north,

1525
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:36,560
Speaker 1: like we grew up. It's just like a thing you

1526
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 1: heard all the time up north, up north, like everyone

1527
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 1: went Like in Michigan, you didn't do any cross movement.

1528
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:49,640
Speaker 1: You didn't know like east west movement. All movement was

1529
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:54,400
Speaker 1: was north south. He's like, drove that direction. If you

1530
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:56,639
Speaker 1: wanted to get into something, you drove north. You wanted

1531
01:25:56,680 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 1: to get into something good, you drove south. To get

1532
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 1: back home, eyes were always to the north. And the

1533
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 1: first time when I left home, I went north whatever

1534
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 1: hundred miles, hundreds of miles and set up shop up there. Uh.

1535
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 1: One last question for you, you uh we're putting to me,

1536
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:22,559
Speaker 1: is it is it socially acceptable, morally acceptable to schedule

1537
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 1: wedding on opening weekend of deer season. Yeah. And and

1538
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:33,519
Speaker 1: my take being a being the Wisconsin chauvinist I am,

1539
01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:39,599
Speaker 1: and knowing that Wisconsin deer hunting the deer season, everyone knows.

1540
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: Everyone knows when deer season in Wisconsin. And if you

1541
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 1: don't know, you're really really I have to wonder about

1542
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: how can you not be learned? Yeah, this is a

1543
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 1: this is a big thing in Wisconsin, you cannot miss

1544
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 1: all the blaze orange going usually north, even though you

1545
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:57,519
Speaker 1: know people going to eastern West too, but there's you

1546
01:26:57,560 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 1: cannot you cannot miss all the blaze orange and the

1547
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 1: role before our gun season opens. And then think just

1548
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: at work, how many people get around and work we're

1549
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:09,919
Speaker 1: talking about deer hunting. Husband's going deer hunting, girl girlfriends

1550
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 1: going with their boyfriends, that kind of stuff. And so

1551
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: I think, when you know this is this, this is

1552
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: a once of your event. Pretty much most people have

1553
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. Wade my my my friend Tom Herberline always

1554
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:26,080
Speaker 1: had the comment and his research on um hunters in

1555
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:30,439
Speaker 1: Wisconsin that in Wisconsin you're either either are a deer

1556
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:33,640
Speaker 1: hunter or sleeping with a deer hunter because in he

1557
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 1: mean just in one bad be throughout the household, there's

1558
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 1: there's always someone in the house who hunts. So I think,

1559
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:41,400
Speaker 1: having all that of wearing a stuff deer hunting, especially

1560
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:44,680
Speaker 1: a gun season, how can you possibly justify having a

1561
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 1: wedding opening week in a gun season. You know, you

1562
01:27:48,080 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 1: can affect the lives a lot of people who are

1563
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:54,280
Speaker 1: either going to skip your wedding or or really really

1564
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 1: resentful that you dragged them out of the woods for

1565
01:27:57,200 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: your wedding. That you could have scheduled that fifty one

1566
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:02,960
Speaker 1: other weekend? Why why why would you do that? And

1567
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 1: there's there's a reason I got married in mid July. Yeah,

1568
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 1: well I think that's I think personally, that's respectful other

1569
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:14,800
Speaker 1: people's time. And I haven't screwed up. I haven't yet

1570
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 1: screwed up majorly. On children's birthdates. I got one May

1571
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 1: nine in there. That is difficult. It's difficult, but none

1572
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 1: of them were uh by by planning that one. We

1573
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:33,599
Speaker 1: were pretty much planning out And I'm like, at least

1574
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:35,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't the fault. I got a May nine in

1575
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 1: in there, and his mother likes him to be around

1576
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:41,320
Speaker 1: home on his birthday. His mother doesn't want to be

1577
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 1: off doing whatever. Um, I want to be there. It's

1578
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: just it's that that wasn't great. It wasn't great, but

1579
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't horrible. There might come a time though, where

1580
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 1: he gets to make that decision to say, you know what,

1581
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 1: I'd really like to be out at Uncle Doug's turkey

1582
01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:01,559
Speaker 1: hunt on my birthday. Let's we got the conversation this year,

1583
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna go turkey hunt. But it's like in my

1584
01:29:05,439 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 1: family didn't come for me and my family and the

1585
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:11,560
Speaker 1: powers that be within that family. There seems to be

1586
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 1: this thing where everyone's all together on birthdays. Yeah, so

1587
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 1: it's like the calendar starts to get really crowded. Hold

1588
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:22,639
Speaker 1: your thought, Dug. The calendar starts to get really crowded

1589
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 1: when you have like I do. I have three kids,

1590
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:26,960
Speaker 1: So there's three days. You only got three sixty five

1591
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 1: days out of year. There's three of them. You get

1592
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 1: a uh spouse birthday and the anniversary, handful of religious holidays.

1593
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 1: It's like, if I could do it all over again,

1594
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 1: I just gotten married on Christmas and then married a

1595
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:45,320
Speaker 1: girl who was born on Find a girl. Yeah, find

1596
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:48,879
Speaker 1: a girl's like birthdays around Christmas, get married on Christmas,

1597
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 1: and then try to impregnate her routinely in nine months

1598
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 1: for Christmas, Doug, you have a family story about this.

1599
01:29:59,520 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: I have three things that come to mind about one.

1600
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:05,360
Speaker 1: My uncle, Ralph Zelinski, who was one of my dad's

1601
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:07,920
Speaker 1: hunting buddies up north when he used to go up north.

1602
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:12,160
Speaker 1: And the guy who I first heard the word mooching from,

1603
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:17,960
Speaker 1: got married on Opening weekend. My dad never forgave him.

1604
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 1: Ralph is now ninety three years old. My dad's dad.

1605
01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:26,040
Speaker 1: My dad went with grave still piste off about that. Uh,

1606
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 1: why why did you get married an opening weekend? I

1607
01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:32,680
Speaker 1: think it was a power thing with I shouldn't say

1608
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:35,080
Speaker 1: because they're both still alive and they might listen to this.

1609
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know why. What the hell?

1610
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 1: That's all my dad's What the hell's the matter with him?

1611
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 1: That's all my dad said. Uh. Last year, my nephew, Sam,

1612
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 1: who you all know has and I'm happy to say

1613
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 1: his name, uh, had a new girlfriend. They've been going

1614
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:55,559
Speaker 1: out for about three or four months, and he calls

1615
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: me up about three weeks before opening weekend. He goes, hey, uncle,

1616
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:04,200
Speaker 1: so I'm not gonna be there opening weekend, and I

1617
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: said why not? He goes, well, Carra's family has a

1618
01:31:08,160 --> 01:31:11,439
Speaker 1: wedding Countain, New Jersey, and I said I'd go along.

1619
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize it was opening weekend. But now

1620
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 1: I committed to that's so I gotta go. I said, kid,

1621
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 1: there's two things wrong with that. The first one is

1622
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:23,760
Speaker 1: chances are a year from now she's not gonna be

1623
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:26,599
Speaker 1: your girlfriend. So you just gave up an opening weekend

1624
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:30,800
Speaker 1: for somebody you're not you're no longer with or you

1625
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:35,960
Speaker 1: are still together. You get married, and you said all. Uh,

1626
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:40,960
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of guys really screw themselves in

1627
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 1: the in the courtship phase by giving up liberties that

1628
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:50,720
Speaker 1: they think they're gonna somehow get back later. You need to.

1629
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:54,080
Speaker 1: I tell people, I don't care if you need to

1630
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:57,880
Speaker 1: drive down the road and sleep in a car act

1631
01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:02,719
Speaker 1: like you have shipped to do when he started dating someone,

1632
01:32:04,120 --> 01:32:07,160
Speaker 1: just to set the scene. Yeah, but you haven't told

1633
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 1: the story I wanted to tell, which one was at about,

1634
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:15,840
Speaker 1: didn't your old man? Oh? Oh, my brother, So my

1635
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:20,800
Speaker 1: mom's my mom is pregnant and the do date. And

1636
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:22,600
Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot of planning from what I

1637
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 1: could tell when when we were conceived. Uh, And my

1638
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:31,280
Speaker 1: my dad was just a you know, I loved going

1639
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:33,600
Speaker 1: up north and deer hunting. And as it happened, my

1640
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 1: brother is do like right at the end of you know,

1641
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 1: that third week in November, and my father started telling

1642
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:46,560
Speaker 1: my mom there had that kid November two. He was

1643
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 1: born November second, two weeks later, Dad's going north. One

1644
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,400
Speaker 1: of my old newspaper buddies back in there. This is

1645
01:32:58,400 --> 01:33:02,320
Speaker 1: the early eighties, paying and I started our family. Our firstborn,

1646
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:06,600
Speaker 1: Leah was born in January of and so she she

1647
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 1: we we planned it, you know, we made sure that

1648
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 1: we didn't stir at all this stuff until we could,

1649
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 1: you know, and penning up pregnant right away. So it

1650
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:18,040
Speaker 1: was January for Leah. Ellie came along in July. The

1651
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:20,679
Speaker 1: only one became close to missing on was Carson, our

1652
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:24,560
Speaker 1: our youngest, and she was born right before she was

1653
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,240
Speaker 1: born September twelve. And this and this is before I

1654
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: was like this, before I was elk hunting, and so

1655
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:33,400
Speaker 1: this is still you're still Eastern White was still Eastern

1656
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 1: whitetail hunting a great I thought we stood in the

1657
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: home on that one. You know, it just really it

1658
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 1: was close. But um, I was telling some guys that

1659
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:47,120
Speaker 1: worked out, you know, they something about um. I can't

1660
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:48,519
Speaker 1: rememb how we got talking about because none of these

1661
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:50,760
Speaker 1: guys were hunters. But when I mentioned the fact that

1662
01:33:50,840 --> 01:33:53,400
Speaker 1: Penny and I planned, and she wasn't like it wasn't

1663
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:55,160
Speaker 1: like I was holding a gun to her head. We

1664
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:57,560
Speaker 1: just talked about in practical terms, when you want his

1665
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 1: kids to arrive and when we kind of for my

1666
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 1: schedule it worked out birthday. If I'm if you want

1667
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:05,240
Speaker 1: me home to help with the kids, it's better if

1668
01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:08,360
Speaker 1: it's outside of hunt when the calendar and some lovemaking.

1669
01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:12,840
Speaker 1: So if that's one guy saying, people like you make

1670
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:16,840
Speaker 1: me ashamed of the male species amount god, I couldn't

1671
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:20,120
Speaker 1: be prouder of you. And I thought, well, hey, if

1672
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,720
Speaker 1: if my wife understands it all matters to me, don't

1673
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:26,080
Speaker 1: give a ship with this. But I thought, no, I

1674
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:28,000
Speaker 1: I know I missed the mark a little bit on

1675
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:31,080
Speaker 1: a May niner because of spring bear and Turkey. But

1676
01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:34,439
Speaker 1: when you factor in, I also got a mid December,

1677
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:40,759
Speaker 1: and I got a late January. So and the late January,

1678
01:34:40,840 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 1: which is the best one I got, was accidental. So

1679
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:48,160
Speaker 1: it's like, even when I'm making mistakes, even when I'm

1680
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: making mistakes, I'm hitting the right. What do you got?

1681
01:34:52,280 --> 01:34:57,040
Speaker 1: Y uh? I'm not really throwing him under the bus.

1682
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: But I missed are now good friend Brodie's wedding because

1683
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:03,840
Speaker 1: it was a September wedding. I can't remember exactly when,

1684
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 1: but my wife had to go with a friend of mine.

1685
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:13,480
Speaker 1: You sent your wife to your buddy. It was September,

1686
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 1: and Broody understood I suppose Yeah, yeah, what the hell

1687
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: was Brody getting married then? For? I don't you know,

1688
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:22,080
Speaker 1: I wish I didn't like, Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

1689
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm I'm assuming Brodie's listening. No, but what are your

1690
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 1: for for? For throwing offspring? What'd you hit? Oh? Um?

1691
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:36,960
Speaker 1: August uh seventh, December five? So yeah, but perfect good

1692
01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:46,639
Speaker 1: shooting de Yeah, just one right in the perfect spot. Yeah.

1693
01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 1: I can't say that that was planned. That was dumb luck.

1694
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:55,760
Speaker 1: But you started to realize that the odds are it's

1695
01:35:55,760 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 1: gonna be okay because there's more months when it's okay

1696
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:01,680
Speaker 1: to have a kid then there are when it's not

1697
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:06,160
Speaker 1: okay to have a kid. Yes, it's playing a room

1698
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:10,360
Speaker 1: that it figure things out without really causing hard feelings. Yeah,

1699
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not you're asking the impossible. Yeah, it's

1700
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 1: just me. It's just being reasonable and realistic. And because

1701
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:19,120
Speaker 1: like when I got married, when we got married was

1702
01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:22,040
Speaker 1: December six, you know, I just saw the navy and

1703
01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 1: Penny's mom made it clear that she's not moving to

1704
01:36:24,120 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: Wisconsin with me unless she's married. And so I looked

1705
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:29,720
Speaker 1: at my schedule, thought, well, dear seasons, you know this,

1706
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:32,760
Speaker 1: how about two weeks after after deer season. So that's

1707
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:39,000
Speaker 1: what we did. Yeah, all right, Doggy Concluders. I was

1708
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:43,120
Speaker 1: fascinated by the wallow conversation. And you've given Pat so

1709
01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:47,120
Speaker 1: much credit about Uh. I was pumping them up, pumping

1710
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 1: that wallow, finding that wallow, all the woodsmanship that goes

1711
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:52,600
Speaker 1: along with you know, all these various places where it

1712
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:55,360
Speaker 1: might be already pouring in, And it just reminded me

1713
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: so much of being able to figure out where turkeys roosting,

1714
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 1: hijacking him on the way good Woods takes good Woods

1715
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:08,600
Speaker 1: and ship to find out where turkey's roost is, to

1716
01:37:08,680 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 1: find out a turkey's roost and then and then bush wack,

1717
01:37:11,040 --> 01:37:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm on his way in there. Pat Concluders, Yeah, my

1718
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,639
Speaker 1: concluder is that um. I know you guys like history,

1719
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:21,439
Speaker 1: And when I realized we're gonna be meeting in Lacrosse

1720
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:26,040
Speaker 1: made me think of an old lieutenant um named He

1721
01:37:26,120 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 1: never lived an old age. I think he died at

1722
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,519
Speaker 1: age thirty four in the War of eighteen twelve. His

1723
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:33,960
Speaker 1: name is You probably know of Zebulon Pike, Pike's Peak,

1724
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:36,920
Speaker 1: Pike's Peak, Well, did you know this Western? Did you

1725
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 1: know those two Pikes Peak. Nope, there's one just down

1726
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 1: the road here, just down the river here at um

1727
01:37:43,280 --> 01:37:47,000
Speaker 1: in Iowa. That way, Yeah, you go on to Iowa.

1728
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:51,639
Speaker 1: Five feet above right across from Prairie Toucheen and Prairie

1729
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:53,879
Speaker 1: to Sheen is where the Wisconsin River meets the Wisconsin

1730
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,600
Speaker 1: meets the Mississippi River. Right across from there is a

1731
01:37:56,720 --> 01:38:01,080
Speaker 1: five foot bluff and he named that on Pike's Peak two.

1732
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:04,280
Speaker 1: That was the first one he named. Yeah, and then

1733
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 1: had kind he was, um, yeah, Well, and just about

1734
01:38:10,920 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago they had like, I think it's a

1735
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:17,559
Speaker 1: centennial over Minnesota, and this guy referred to zebulon Pike

1736
01:38:17,720 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 1: as um. He said something like, it's two hundred years

1737
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:25,160
Speaker 1: since this exploration he made up the Mississippi, and he's

1738
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:29,000
Speaker 1: still not Lewis and Clark. He's still basically no respect

1739
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:30,920
Speaker 1: for the guy. And one of the reasons that they

1740
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:33,439
Speaker 1: don't respect him to this day is because he was

1741
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:37,120
Speaker 1: One of his missions from from President Jefferson was to

1742
01:38:37,240 --> 01:38:40,439
Speaker 1: find the headwaters of the Mississippi. So he went up

1743
01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:43,439
Speaker 1: in the central Minnesota, north central Minnesota, and it decided

1744
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: that um Leech Lake was the headwaters of the Mississippi. Well,

1745
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:50,240
Speaker 1: of course time went on and they realized, no, it's

1746
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:53,200
Speaker 1: actually to the west lower ways and it's actually like

1747
01:38:53,320 --> 01:38:56,360
Speaker 1: a Taska. So he blew that. But while he's up there,

1748
01:38:56,920 --> 01:39:00,280
Speaker 1: he set his his his um soldiers to work on

1749
01:39:00,479 --> 01:39:03,040
Speaker 1: doug out canoes because they had had to keep exploring.

1750
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:05,599
Speaker 1: So he's had to make these dugout canoes. And they're

1751
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:07,720
Speaker 1: all wondering, why the hell would you make your men

1752
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 1: make dug out canoes when you have were among the

1753
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 1: Chiple people. They have jibwey and they make they're famous

1754
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:17,439
Speaker 1: for these birch bark canoes. But this guy insisted on

1755
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:21,519
Speaker 1: his dugouts. Well, they sank very quickly, they sank with

1756
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: all his powder and zebyone pipe. Decide, well, let's try

1757
01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:26,960
Speaker 1: the powder out. So he had the guy spread the

1758
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:30,200
Speaker 1: gunpowder over all these all this I think prid camers

1759
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:32,840
Speaker 1: or whatever the cloth they had in those days. And

1760
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 1: then they said that high enough above a fire they

1761
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:38,840
Speaker 1: thought was safe for burned, burned his tents up, So

1762
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:42,559
Speaker 1: that's tense burn up. He's ruined everything, and this kind

1763
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:45,200
Speaker 1: of reputation, these kind of things he did, the things

1764
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 1: he was famous for, is real screw ups. At the

1765
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 1: same time, he had some respect because he was like,

1766
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: he was a tough he was a tough survivory type guy.

1767
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:56,160
Speaker 1: He'd be sick and he worked through sicknesses and then

1768
01:39:56,520 --> 01:40:00,280
Speaker 1: but um his place in history. The people who studied

1769
01:40:00,320 --> 01:40:02,639
Speaker 1: him kind of referred to him as the b team

1770
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:05,519
Speaker 1: of Lewis and Clark, that he was he was not,

1771
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:07,920
Speaker 1: he was not in their league. Said, I didn't know

1772
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:09,680
Speaker 1: this about I didn't know that Pike was kind of

1773
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 1: like not slick. Yeah, and he he went Jefferson. Then

1774
01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:17,120
Speaker 1: after this UM exploration in this part of the world,

1775
01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:21,160
Speaker 1: Jefferson send to explore the UM the southern regions of

1776
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 1: the Louisiana Purchase because Lewis and Clark up doing on

1777
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:27,679
Speaker 1: the northwest. And he went down in the Colorado area.

1778
01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:30,719
Speaker 1: He got the Pike's Peak with the Moulteney named Pike's

1779
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:33,720
Speaker 1: Peak out there, and he decided he was trying to

1780
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:36,200
Speaker 1: try to scale Pike's Peak while it got to be

1781
01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:38,040
Speaker 1: pretty cold, and they gave up that idea, and he

1782
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:41,479
Speaker 1: decided that this this place, this mountain can't be climbed,

1783
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:43,880
Speaker 1: So they gave up, gave up in the idea. Then

1784
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:47,479
Speaker 1: he they started pushing southward, and I think done is

1785
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:51,799
Speaker 1: his messengers Michigan was to find the Red River someplace

1786
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:55,479
Speaker 1: down there. Well, he got his troops all lost. They

1787
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:59,439
Speaker 1: eventually got captured by the Spanish um army. And then

1788
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:03,760
Speaker 1: and then apparently his his people, his his men were

1789
01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:06,479
Speaker 1: thankful that they had been captured because they finally had

1790
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:09,840
Speaker 1: somebody in charge. I knew what was going on, but

1791
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:13,200
Speaker 1: I'm lost anymore. Yeah, So then eventually they let let

1792
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:15,439
Speaker 1: him loose them go back, you know, And but he

1793
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:17,840
Speaker 1: ended up dying not that long after that. He fought

1794
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:19,320
Speaker 1: in the War of eighteen twelve. Of them when they're

1795
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 1: invading Toronto. He had killed in Toronto at age thirty four,

1796
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:27,679
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was Pike died at thirty four four. Yeah, jeez,

1797
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 1: I think Custer was thirty six when he died. Yea

1798
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: our rice away life is like, well, I hit thirty

1799
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:38,639
Speaker 1: six and I was like, well Coster died, Now, that's

1800
01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:42,360
Speaker 1: the way to you take stock here if people die. Yeah.

1801
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 1: Mozart died at three seven. Yeah, she's like Zebulon. Pike

1802
01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:50,639
Speaker 1: died at thirty three or four. He was a general

1803
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:52,280
Speaker 1: by that time, but he was you know, yeah, he

1804
01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:54,479
Speaker 1: was dead at thirty four. That makes me feel like

1805
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:57,479
Speaker 1: a do nothing. He sucked at everything. It sounds like,

1806
01:41:58,360 --> 01:42:03,280
Speaker 1: well a good public apparently. Yeah name big mountains, hey man.

1807
01:42:03,680 --> 01:42:09,599
Speaker 1: You know the story about um Laramie. Okay, so Laramie's

1808
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:12,519
Speaker 1: a guy like he's a mountain man, not even shows

1809
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 1: up out west hoping to be a mountain man, quickly

1810
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 1: gets killed under depending who he asked how he got killed,

1811
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:20,840
Speaker 1: he might have got killed by some Indians and stuff

1812
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:22,960
Speaker 1: down a hole in the ice and the beaver pond.

1813
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:27,599
Speaker 1: There's a different versions of events, but total Greenhorn shows

1814
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:32,080
Speaker 1: up on the scene very quickly, is dead, murdered, killed

1815
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:36,519
Speaker 1: in the action mountain man action winds up with a town,

1816
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 1: a mountain range, a peak, a river and no no, no,

1817
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 1: no no, and yeah you have how he got that

1818
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:49,639
Speaker 1: kind of why they picked his name out. I'm guessing

1819
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:52,320
Speaker 1: it was like because whatever beaver pond, he got stuff

1820
01:42:52,360 --> 01:42:56,160
Speaker 1: down through the ice and became Laramie River and then

1821
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:02,639
Speaker 1: people and is a pretty name. Yeah, now Bridger, there's

1822
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:05,400
Speaker 1: a guy that deserves it and got everything named after him.

1823
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:10,120
Speaker 1: That that's my story from that's part of the world,

1824
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, from zebulon pikes Um search up here Yeah.

1825
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:15,599
Speaker 1: The moral of the story is look for the highest

1826
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:17,559
Speaker 1: thing you can see around and name it after yourself.

1827
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:22,160
Speaker 1: So there are two pikes Peaks. Now you I don't

1828
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:24,640
Speaker 1: know about the Wisconsin one. Well, it's Hashi Iowa. Oh,

1829
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah, it's it's right across the river from

1830
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:34,080
Speaker 1: Prairie to Sheen. Larry Pete, No, I'm sorry, Pikes Peak Iowa. Ye,

1831
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna climb that onet. You can drive right to

1832
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:40,599
Speaker 1: the top of it. And we drove as five feet

1833
01:43:40,640 --> 01:43:45,759
Speaker 1: So it's like, what's that one guy? What's fourteen divide

1834
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,680
Speaker 1: by four at five? You know I can't do that

1835
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 1: kind of man. I was screwed up. SUTs. It's somewhere

1836
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:59,519
Speaker 1: south five hundred. It's that's the height of Pike's Peak.

1837
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:03,040
Speaker 1: But but yeah, I started our Pike story and he

1838
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:05,679
Speaker 1: was like, he's like, dude, next time I name a mountain, Yeah,

1839
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:09,639
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it like this. He also he also

1840
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:13,439
Speaker 1: apparently picked that spot Pike's Peak for an army fort.

1841
01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:16,120
Speaker 1: He suggested the army they built a fort there, when

1842
01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 1: then the Army engineers came through years later, looked at

1843
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 1: looked things over and said, no, pretty Sheen will do

1844
01:44:21,760 --> 01:44:23,679
Speaker 1: just fine, they're building it up on the on the mountain,

1845
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:26,160
Speaker 1: they're up on the bluff. They're building it down in

1846
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:29,640
Speaker 1: that the confluence of the Wisconsin River the Mississippi River,

1847
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:32,120
Speaker 1: so they could command the river and not to carry

1848
01:44:32,160 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: their stife so far. Yeah, so he wasn't good at

1849
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:39,320
Speaker 1: sighting forts either. His long list of things that wasn't there,

1850
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:45,480
Speaker 1: all right, Doug Durren, No, I know, yeah, yeah, I'm

1851
01:44:45,479 --> 01:44:47,519
Speaker 1: just saying your name. I like to end things by

1852
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:51,680
Speaker 1: saying names like that. Thanks for having Yeah. If it

1853
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:54,080
Speaker 1: was the beginning, I'd be like Dug during but then

1854
01:44:54,160 --> 01:45:00,559
Speaker 1: I'm like d Dug durn and Patrick Durkin. What's your

1855
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:05,000
Speaker 1: middle named? Pat? Edward P, D P E D P Okay,

1856
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:08,160
Speaker 1: did you have any closing thoughts? No, no, I don't

1857
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:13,599
Speaker 1: have any nothing. Yeah, I'm spent all right, Thank you, Pat,

1858
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:15,080
Speaker 1: Thank you Doug. Well, thanks for having us.