1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and you're listening to stuff mom 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: never told you. So today I am jazz to talk 3 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: through some new research that just came out Brigit that 4 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: confirms some of my biggest suspicions around women's ambition and 5 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: our love lives that I've been writing about since the 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: very beginning of my journey with bossed Up. In fact, 7 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: one of the first thing that I thought worth mentioning 8 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: in this episode was an article I wrote called I'm 9 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: Tired of Young Women Downplaying their accomplishments for Role reboot 10 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: dot Org. Shout up to them, shout out to that 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: amazing blog that I used to write for a lot, 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: all about living life off script, in other words, like 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: ditching gender roles. And here's the main gist of it, 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: has to do with our ambition and our achievements and 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: our dating lives. So I found myself in a predicament 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: that I wonder if you've ever experienced, or if anyone 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: listening has, which is I was really into this new 18 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: guy that I was dating, and for the first couple 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: of months, I didn't even really realize that I hadn't 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: mentioned a lot of my biggest achievements at work I 21 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: hadn't really mentioned what I've been doing. At the time, 22 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: I was a political digital strategist working on some of 23 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: the biggest, hottest Senate campaigns across the country. This was 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: back and I was working for a super pack, so 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: I had my hand in every major Senate race in 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: the country, which is super fun um. At the time, 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: I had just gotten off of a day in which 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: I had a huge victory for my client, and when 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: I met up with him to play some volleyball shout 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: out to Brad the boo, who has been in the 31 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: picture now for quite some time, I found myself accidentally 32 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: slipping and reveling in one of my successes from the day. 33 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh no, I gasped, and like I 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: looked at him as though he should have been intimidated 35 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: by me, which is really egomaniacal like me. But I 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: was like, does that not intimidate you? Like I shouldn't 37 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: even you know, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to like 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: gloat or anything, you know, I like apologized for talking 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: about my big success at work that day. He turns 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: to me and says, no, that's hot, and I'm like, 41 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: whoa what, like like Recorcord. Yeah, and I'm like, what 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: do you mean. He's like, I think it's awesome that 43 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: you're killing it at work. And what surprised me in 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: that moment was not just his response but my response 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: to his response. Okay, I was surprised that I was worried, 46 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: and then he was not at all intimidated, Like, why 47 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: had I been dating this guy for two months at 48 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: the time and hadn't really mentioned how much I loved 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: what I was doing and how thoud I was what 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: I was doing at work? Yeah, I mean, do ambitious 51 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: women feel like they have to downplay there in their 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: career ambitions, their career successes in order to get, you know, 53 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: get into men. Yeah, and I have to I have 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: to put out a little disclaimer here by saying this 55 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: is a seriously heteronormative situation in that something that research 56 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: has found really amongst heterosexual couples that single women, and 57 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: now there is finally new research that just came out 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: this month that women who are single and heterosexual do 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: in fact self censor around men when they think that 60 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: whatever their career ambitions are might be seen or viewed 61 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: by their other classmates, including men. So I mean, I 62 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: want to dive into that new research which is being 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: called the ambition marriage trade off. Harvard Business Review put 64 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: out an article called the Ambition marriage trade Off too 65 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: many single women face, and I feel like there's so 66 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: much to sink. Um I think, I mean, I think 67 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: it's worth saying that, Like, I'm I can brag on you. 68 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: I know that you're a very ambitious, like successful woman. 69 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: I admire. This about you is that you're very like 70 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: you own your accomplishments, which is something that like, I mean, 71 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: I think that's great, right So like, so I I 72 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: have a very like kind of complicated feelings about this. 73 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: But something I can't stand is like in celebrities is 74 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: like false modesty and they're like oh like like yeah, 75 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: like I like this is why I hate Kyler Swift 76 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: because she always comes out on stage like wow, I 77 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: can't believe there's people in the audience right, like and 78 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: it's like, well, you're a huge pop star of course, um, 79 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: and so I really are. I find it refreshing that 80 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: people would like own their accomplishments. And I tend to like, um, 81 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: you know, celebrities who are a little bit like braggy, 82 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: like I loved Prince. I love people who talk about 83 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: how they're they're great, um, and that there's something in that. 84 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: I think that like, we're told that you're not supposed 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: to do that, We're told that you're not supposed to be, 86 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, um to braggy, especially as women. And there's 87 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: this whole likability leadership trade off that women also faced, 88 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: right that the more assertive women are, whether it's in 89 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: a boardroom or about their own achievements, the less likable 90 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: men and women are to see them or to consider them. 91 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: So so let's let's talk about this study because it 92 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: really is troubling to me, and I'd love to hear 93 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: from our listeners if you find yourself self censoring by 94 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: accident or otherwise, or if this is something like me 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: you used to do a lot and started to mind 96 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: fully change. Yeah, because when you describe the way I 97 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: am about my achievements now, I think I would agree 98 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: I'm pretty unapologetically ambitious. And what it's been challenging, I mean, 99 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: I think it's been a little bit of a transition, 100 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: um from being someone who I described in that in 101 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: that piece, I said, listen, I'm I was a hot 102 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: mess like I was and not that there's anything wrong 103 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: with that either, But I was not. I was so 104 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: busy trying to be demure and coy, but I was 105 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: reeling in partners or prospective partners who were into that 106 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: coy demure me. And so was it like a bait 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: and switch where it's like, hey, guess look, guys, I 108 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: know you thought I have a super coy, but I'm 109 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: actually super not like sto surprised with it. And there's 110 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: some there's some problems of that. Yeah, I mean I 111 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: have often been told I, um, I like completely compartmentalized 112 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: my like work and professional accomplishments. And my great example 113 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 1: is that when I was graduating from college, my parents 114 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: didn't know that I had been like selected to give 115 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: a like just because I didn't tell them until the 116 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: why were you selected to give a speech? Because I 117 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: was a very good student and I was a very 118 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: well liked student in my class and not an understatement. 119 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: I think that might be an understatement. Can you can 120 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: you own that achievement? I own that achievement. I was. 121 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: I was chosen as our quote outstanding graduated senior, And yeah, 122 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: I mean I think the idea. For some reason, I 123 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: felt like that was not something I could like tell 124 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: my parents. My parents like I just like let them 125 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: find out the day of. And I think, like I've 126 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: often been accused of sort of umpt mentalizing and not 127 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: the word for hiding your um but I think they're like, 128 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, I something that. So I like it when 129 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: people own their achievements and that their ambition. But there's 130 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: nothing I can stand less, And particularly in a town 131 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: like DC, And I think this is it's obviously very gendered, 132 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: but I think it like spans gender people who are 133 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: like really really self promoting. Like I like that's something 134 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: that like I encounter often in d C. And it 135 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: like makes it like makes my skin cross when someone 136 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: is like legitimately ambitious and very proud of what they've done. 137 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: I love that, and I feel like I like gravitate 138 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: towards that, even though that's not necessarily how I am. 139 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: But then I feel like because if you've probably met 140 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: the guy in d C who was like talk so 141 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: much about all these big things he's doing and like 142 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: who he's worked with, and I find that like that 143 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: is so the opposite of like my vibe like what 144 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: it's genuine and someone is like coming from a place 145 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: of like I love what I do, I'm proud of 146 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: what I do, and like they're owning it in every 147 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: genuine way. I love that. There will always be people 148 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: who don't know if you're owning it in a genuine way, though, 149 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: And that's a good point. That's the thing. I think 150 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: you and I actually differ dramatically approach to this. I'm 151 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: not saying in our in our opinion per se, but 152 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: like you and I are very different in how we 153 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: own our achievements. I think I think that's probably and 154 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: I think that will make this conversation even more interesting 155 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: because I wasn't always like that, because it was so 156 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: much easier to be coy into mirror because you wouldn't 157 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: risk being seen as a jerk. Now, I'm like, you 158 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: know what far outweighs the amount of people who will 159 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: inevitably think I'm a jerk for talking about my achievements 160 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: are the people who will then show up in my 161 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: life because they want to know more about these achievements, 162 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: or you want to partner on something, or you know, 163 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: we'll want to invite me to have a podcast to 164 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: talk about stuff like Because there are always going to 165 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: be people out there that think I'm a jerk, and 166 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: I think like what you're saying is so true. Is 167 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: that like I feel like it's like you should have 168 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: the space to show up as yourself, right, and so 169 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: like if Emily is very proud of our accomplishments, like 170 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: you should be able to show up in that space, 171 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: show up in life as in that way and not 172 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: get judged for it. That you're gonna that you're being 173 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: a jury, but we know we all will, Like that's 174 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: the reality, is that we all will be judged. And 175 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: like my take on it is and we're getting way 176 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves here, but I hope you're I hope 177 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: you're still down stay with is like I would much 178 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: rather run the risk of some people thinking I'm full 179 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: of myself than never to go out there and be 180 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: my full self and like be talking about what we're 181 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: what we're doing, and because it's cool because you're doing 182 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: cool stuff, Like like why should you, like, if you're 183 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: someone who loves what you do when you're doing cool stuff, 184 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: why should you not be able to like like revel 185 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: and pride like like, well you know why, because single 186 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 1: women fear not ever getting because of the page. Yeah right, 187 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: And it's the research shows that men today, even today, 188 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: men still prefer quote female partners who are less professionally 189 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: ambitious than they are. And because of this, single women 190 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: face a choice right to potentially take actions that might 191 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: lead to professional success, like having a heavy social media 192 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: presence about your achievements and all of the stuff you're 193 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: doing professionally, which might then be viewed less favorably in 194 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: the heterosexual marriage market. You know that this is written 195 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: by economists when they talk about dating as being in 196 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: the hetero marriage market. Can I dive into this one 197 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: study in Okay? So they took a bunch of MBA 198 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: program students, which is already a pretty biased sample. It's 199 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: acknowledged the sort of privilege that goes into being in 200 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: an NBA program and the fact that this is like 201 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: maybe the most ambitious professional subset of the population you 202 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: might find their like shelling out cash to go to 203 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: grad school. Um. So, knowing that sort of asterix here 204 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: and the asterix that this is amongst heterosexual people only, 205 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: they asked students. You know, they said, here's a career 206 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: services survey and they're asking students, men and women, single 207 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: and not so single people about their potential desired compensation, 208 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: how much travel they would be willing to take on, 209 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: how many hours per week they would be willing to 210 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: work for an internship that summer. So the guys was, 211 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: here's a career services survey that will determine how we 212 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: match you with potential internships this summer. The more ambitious 213 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: you are, the more likely you will be to be 214 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: matched with a high tier you know, whatever consulting firm 215 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: that requires a huge amount of dedication and whatever. Like 216 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: no work life balance is the underlying assumption here. Um. 217 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: The answers for single women changed dramatically when students were 218 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: told that they would be just guessing their survey results 219 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: as a class. So what happened was when when the 220 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: secret was kept, when it was just a survey that 221 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: they would turn in privately to the Career Services center, women, 222 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: women answered single and not single women answered comparably like 223 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: compared to their class dates. But when it came to 224 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: like a public response that their classmates would see, including 225 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: potential single dudes that were in the dating market, they 226 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: quote lowered their desired yearly compensation from a hundred and 227 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: thirty one thousand to a hundred and thirteen thousand on average, 228 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: and so they're saying, I don't want that much money. 229 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: I just want usands get your money, I know, and 230 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: then listen to this. They reduced their willingness to travel 231 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: from fourteen days per month to seven days per month. 232 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: They also reported wanting to work for fewer hours per 233 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: week and significantly lower levels of overall all professional ambition, 234 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: and said that they had less of a tendency to lead. 235 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: Women who were not single didn't change their answers when 236 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: they were going to be shown to the whole class 237 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: versus private. That is wild. That insane that, I mean, 238 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: like I could almost sort of see like the travel thing, 239 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: but the money thing. I mean, who doesn't make money? 240 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: She doesn't want to threaten the dude. I think that 241 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 1: to me is like it is beyond I mean. And 242 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: the researcher said, I'm like reading this, by the way, 243 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: in Starburst, star Starbursts. That's where my mind went to Candy. 244 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: I'm reading this in Starbucks and I'm literally saying out loud, wow, wow, wow, 245 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: after every paragraph. That's a wild study. They indicate that 246 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: single women but quote not women in a relationship avoid 247 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: actions that could help their careers when those actions have 248 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: negative marriage market consequences. Well, so I think I have 249 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: to sort of like flesh that out and that I 250 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: do think that, like I think that we live in 251 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: a society where I think a lot of dudes like 252 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: the idea of finding ambitious women attractive thing I have 253 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: encountered a lot personally. Um, but but actually liking ambitious 254 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: women is a different thing, right. It means like maybe 255 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: you'd have to cook dinner like on the Red and 256 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: like do like and and you know, maybe your your 257 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: partner's career would like be you know, the most important 258 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: thing for her for a while, or like maybe like 259 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: she would be calling for a while, right, Like Yeah, 260 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: I mean I like, I guess I mean I'm an 261 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: ambitious person. I I spent almost a month in Australia 262 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: just for service of my career, and you know, I 263 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: was super excited to have that opportunity, Like I definitely have. 264 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: I I would probably say my career is probably the 265 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: most important thing to me in my life. Um, and 266 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: so I'm certainly ambitious. But I do wonder if I 267 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: if I have sort of like I'm like working in 268 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: this working out my like entire theory around talking about 269 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: your ambitions on this show, so pardon me, Um, but yeah, 270 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: part of me wonders if I if I do sort 271 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: of like shy away from talking about my ambitions because 272 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: I worry you know, around the guy. Yeah, around the guys. Yeah. 273 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean I certainly did, and I caught myself doing so. 274 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: And the question for me that also comes up, I 275 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: have so many questions for this is at what point 276 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: in a relationship does this switch flip right where you 277 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: reveal yourself the heck Like they say single women hide 278 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: their ambition, which research backs up, but married women don't. 279 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: It's not marriage to me, Like, it can't be marriage 280 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: because we know that marriage is like means really different 281 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: things to really get people. Some people don't even ever 282 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,479 Speaker 1: want to get Some people like me have extremely ambivalent 283 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: feelings about marriage. All the time that I've been working 284 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: through that, we need to do a whole other podcasts. 285 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: But um, like, at what point in a partnership do 286 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: you stop having that result show up? Like four months 287 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: into dating, six months into dating, two years into dating. 288 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: I asked Brad the Boo what he thought about this 289 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: research because I stumbled upon it, um while I was 290 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: it was it just came out when I was with 291 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: him in the same room, and I read this study 292 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: and I'm just freaking out, and I said, well, you know, 293 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: what do you have to say about people who are 294 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: men who are intimidated by women's ambition? And we talked 295 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: about the whole article that I had written four years 296 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: ago now, and he said, that's only true for men 297 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: or people. He said, that's only true for people who 298 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: don't see their partnership as a team effort. I think 299 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: that's so wise and so true, right, Like, if you 300 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: if you don't see your partnership as like an equitable team, 301 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: like you're like, just like a teammate, you want your 302 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: teammate to get more money, right, like you want their 303 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: victory is your victory, right. I completely agree, and I 304 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: think not to get too personal, but you know, I 305 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: had a situation where someone like a romantic partner in 306 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: my life was, you know, we had to sort of 307 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: come to grips with the fact that he was, like, 308 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: I find myself attracted to someone else because that person 309 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: is not as like career focused and is not as successful. 310 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: And that's frankly, that's not something that it was an 311 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: isolated thing like that's I've been said, been told that 312 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: multiple times from romantic partners where and again I think 313 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: it's like they think they like, they like the idea 314 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: of the version of themselves that wants to be with 315 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: like a badass career woman, but actually that that version 316 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: of themselves is like them believing the best, you know, 317 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: like in their perfect mind, if they're this like great person, 318 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's exactly what I'm looking for. It's aspirational, right, 319 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: But in reality, perhaps that's not what they actually want. 320 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: And I think like whatever you like, you know, whatever 321 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: you want is fine, like and you shouldn't you shouldn't 322 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: be if it's if you don't actually want what comes 323 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: with dating someone who is very ambitious and career focused, 324 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: which means yeah, making a meal every now and then 325 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: cleaning up, you know, being the person who does a 326 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: lot of the domestic tasks, like being alone while that 327 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: person is traveling for work or like you know, making 328 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: yourself like like being off on your own with that 329 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: person is like doing work. Yeah, like being okay with 330 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: that and actually not just being okay with that, but 331 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: like understanding that like that is part of you know, 332 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: of your team, like but like not being salty about 333 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: and of course, like everyone gets salty when it's like, 334 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, I think you can get grumpy about it sometimes, 335 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: but like not like being willing to take pride in 336 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: that because it reflects well on your relationship and like 337 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: you're better when you're you know, teammate is doing well. Yeah, 338 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: it's it is personal. I mean, I think that this 339 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: is a struggle that so many of us are dealing with, 340 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: and I want to talk this through and so many 341 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: other levels, but we have to take a breg stick around. 342 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: There is way more nuanced to this research. We will 343 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: unpack and walk through together in just a few moments, 344 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: But first a word from our sponsors and we're back. 345 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: And this is kind of an emotional episode for both 346 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: of us. It's very personal. So it's so directly related 347 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: to the trade offs that I think all of us 348 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: are navigating right now. Um, but hello, I would love 349 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: to hear from lesbian women if this is so not 350 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: an issue like in the LGBT community. I would love 351 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: to see what we can learn from folks who don't 352 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: have all this baggage around gender roles, because you know, 353 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: being in the marriage market, being you know, being dating, 354 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: being a person who's dating can feel like a very 355 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: vulnerable experience. And we're told from all the research on 356 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: shame and vulnerability by the way, shout out to burn 357 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: a Brown, that like, the best way to actually find 358 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: someone who loves you for being you is you have 359 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: to dare to let yourself be seen who you actually 360 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: how you actually want to show up in the world, 361 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: and not adapt and like hide your ambition while you're 362 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: in that dating pool. But then what this is saying 363 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: is that sorry, ladies, like because men still need to 364 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: feel like men, and being a man in our society 365 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: still means being a breadwinner, even though that's not necessarily 366 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: the kind of strict gender roles that any of us 367 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: want to adhere to, that it definitely those messages are internalized, 368 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: and the result is we hide, we hid our ambition. 369 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: Here in the HBr study, they did another a couple 370 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: of series is of of experiments that showed that when 371 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: placed in an all female group, those same NBA students 372 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: were way more likely to report that they would prefer 373 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: a high paying, high demand job. Sixty percent of single 374 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: women reported that, whereas when placed with male peers that 375 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: number dropped to forty two. So all like sixty percent 376 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: of these single ambitious women a certain number of like 377 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: what twenty something percent of them said actually no things 378 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: when they were surrounded by men. And so I mean 379 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: in all female groups, single women, the same sort of research, 380 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: I should say, showed up. The same kind of results 381 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: showed up when it comes to a job with a 382 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: quicker promotion and to partner partner track um, substantial travel, 383 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: all of those trade offs were like reminded of our 384 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: risk of being seen as a not so dedicated girlfriend, 385 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: not so dedicated parents, spouse, whatever. When we're just around men, 386 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: we dim our ambition, messed up. That's that's so awful. 387 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: And like, I you know, I'm I'm I'm thinking back 388 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: to when I was in high school. I went to 389 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: all girl high school, and like, you know, I I 390 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: we should do an entire episode around around now like that. Yeah, 391 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: but I mean I definitely felt like in high school 392 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: because it was just women, you never never even occurred 393 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: to me to like like it just was a different world. Like, so, 394 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, they do study performing, they do studies where 395 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, when women are around, when young women 396 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: are educated around young men, they demure more. They don't 397 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: want to answer questions because they you know, they participate less. 398 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: They don't want to be seen as bossy. And you 399 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: know it's funny is that that was the third experiment 400 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: that they did in this stuff, even among MBA students, 401 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: so we're not talking in high school, a breed school. 402 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: They conducted a student survey and analysis on participation grades 403 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: because in the NBA program class participation, yeah, it's a 404 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: big part of it. And so what they did was, um, 405 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: they found that and this is self reported. To take 406 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: all this stuff with a grand of saw because we 407 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: know self reported data is not always the best. But 408 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: they asked their NBA students, the same ones that they've 409 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: been um putting in this Career Center experiment, to see 410 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: if that they had avoided certain actions that they thought 411 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: would help their careers because they were concerned it would 412 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: make them look quote too ambitious, assertive, or pushy. Sixty 413 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: percent of single females said that they had avoided asking 414 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: for a raise or promotion for that reason. So there's 415 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: a lot of self awareness on the censorship Compared to 416 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: thirty nine percent of women who were married or in 417 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: a serious relationship and only twenty seven percent of men, 418 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: So sixty four percent of single women compared to thirty 419 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: nine percent of women in committed relationship, So over half 420 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: of the single women reported avoiding speaking up in meetings, 421 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: compared to about thirty of women who weren't single or men. Wow, 422 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: so really, I mean just like I mean, like I 423 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: I always connect with this, but like the patriarchy man 424 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: like it's like we smash it, smash it. Yeah, well 425 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: that's the thing. Doesn't this make you want to pull 426 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: your hair out? It makes me? It's this is this 427 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: is infuriating, and like like I said earlier, I mean 428 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: it's such a personal as women, as working women who 429 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: are you know, ambitious and pretty career focused. Like it's infuriating, 430 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: and I like, even just in this conversation, I'm like, 431 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: I think taking note of all of the ways that 432 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: has shown up in my personal life. It's it makes 433 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: me want to scream, Like and part of me wonders, 434 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: like is this going to as a you know, unmarried woman, 435 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: is this is what's going to be something that I 436 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: am dealing with my for my whole life, Like it's 437 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: just just gonna be my you know life is trying 438 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: to navigate success in a field that I care about 439 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: so much and love so much, but also having to 440 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: be mindful of like, well, do you want to get 441 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: married someday? Do you want a man to like think 442 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: you're attractive? Do you want a man to like think 443 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: that you're marriage material or like datable or whatever. And 444 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, the more I mean, this is 445 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: the whole other podcast episode. But the more I think 446 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: about this, there's a really great article about making the 447 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: choice to be single forever by this great writer Laurie Penny. 448 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: Shout out to her. But I always go back to 449 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: that where sometimes I think, and this sounds so like 450 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: gloom and doom. And I swear I'm a cheery person, 451 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: but like sometimes I think that the best option is 452 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: like just to be like I'm never getting married, I'm 453 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: never going to date. I'm just going to like perp 454 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: like intentionally live a single life the way that like 455 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: plenty of like writers and artists have done since forever, 456 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: and like making that choice because part of me is 457 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: like it is not worth the headache to have to 458 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: deal with navigating this mind field of like you can't 459 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: if you want to like have a partner, you can't 460 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: be your full self and like you can't be And 461 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: I also think they're like people don't understand what it's 462 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: like to be ach, ambitious or creative woman. People think 463 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: that like you're you know, if you have ambitions or 464 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: you're creative or whatever, that you're gonna get married and 465 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: have a kid and those are gonna fall by the wayside, 466 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: And like we totally allow men to show up in 467 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: that way that like, you know, your career or your 468 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: passion or whatever is a big part of your life, 469 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: and we don't afford that to women at all, or 470 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: at least we have an historically correct because it's where 471 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: I'm optimistic. This is where I'm optimistic. First of all, 472 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: I have been long obsessed with the happiness research around 473 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: being signal or being with someone. And I'm not saying 474 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: this is the reason anyone should ever get married. But connection, connection, 475 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: I think is why we're all here. Like at the 476 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: end of the day, I think human connection is a 477 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: humongous part of living a happy, healthy and successful life. 478 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: I put that in your cred But we shouldn't have 479 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: to sacrifice our art. Our careers are focused your passionate 480 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: our passions to do that right. I think it's about 481 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: finding the right kind of person and maybe at different 482 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: times in our lives, having the ability to communicate and 483 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: compromise mindfully or not or choose like this has been 484 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: a good ride, but like I'm not about monogamy, you 485 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like this has been a good ride, 486 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: but it's time to move on to the next, you know, 487 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: Like this is the question. I think one of the 488 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: answers that I've come across is, and this is a 489 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: core principle at bossed Up, is that we have to 490 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: treat our personal lives as important as our professional lives. 491 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: We have to see them together. We can't we I 492 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: think the compartmentalization can sometimes hurt our cause. And one 493 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: of the pieces of advice that they put together is 494 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: saying that there might be a place for grad schools, 495 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: like there might be a place for MBA programs or 496 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: college to help students think holistically about their ambitions personally 497 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: and professionally. That's basically the kind of safe space we've 498 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: created at Boston and say, hey, here's a radical concept. 499 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: Come bring your personal goals into the same piece of paper, 500 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: into the same weekend, in the same consideration as your 501 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: professional goals, and talk about them that way with the 502 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: people in your life. Yeah, I mean, and then like 503 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: I keep going back to myself because this is something 504 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: I deal with. It's it's a completely personal thing. But 505 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: like I am someone who like I can very clearly 506 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: see it in my life and how it's played out. 507 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: I can partmentalize the hell out of my my professional life, 508 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: like I I mean, for the longest time, if there 509 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: was any kind of overlap between personal and professional, like 510 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: I was so schemed out by that, like was not 511 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: something that I I I am, like I like, and 512 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: I think that part of it is because the work 513 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: that I've done, it's so it's social and like you're 514 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: talking about like don't date in the political world that yeah, 515 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: well that and other things. I mean, my work basically 516 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: for the longest time it's been around, you know, it's 517 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: been very outreach focused and like making friends with lots 518 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: of people, going out with lots of people, and making 519 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: people feel good about our like it's a relationship building 520 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: and like that can it can be super confusing, Like 521 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: having that be a big basis of your promotional work 522 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: can be very confused, using alongside like friendships and like 523 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: romantic relationships. And so for me, I just have to 524 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: have them completely distinct where it's like these are my 525 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: like coworkers and I love them dearly and they're so great. 526 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: But then but those are very different than my like 527 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: you know, professional and personal and family and so like, yeah, 528 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: well I think there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, but 529 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: I think that it can it can go. I think 530 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: that it does has not afforded me the ability to 531 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: like show up as my full my full self in 532 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: all the spaces you know, it's like I can't you know, 533 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: I like would be very if I went to a 534 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: professional development space and someone was like, so tell me 535 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: about your family ambitions, I would be like wawa, which 536 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm not advocat ever either though to be clear, like 537 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: they can't legally do that if all that stuff. But 538 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: like I'm trying to think of what I'm trying to 539 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: say here. What I found helpful is bringing my work 540 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: to my dating life and making sure that my personal 541 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: priorities are integrated into my work choices to make sense 542 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: personal and again it's it's holistic. It sounds like yeah, 543 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: where it's like and I think, I mean, I've had 544 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: work situations where like they your your boss doesn't almost 545 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: does not expect you to be a person like you're 546 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: a robot and so like if you like or whatever, 547 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: it's like you're not able to show up as the 548 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, individuals that we are with family responsibilities, friend responsibilities, 549 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: romantic responsibilities, and don't pretend to yourself like you can 550 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: check all of that back exactly exactly, and I think work, 551 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean like bringing it back to your favorite thing, 552 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: which is like professional development work scenarios where they afford 553 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: for like you know that we're all people that you 554 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: know maybe one day, Yeah, we're I think it's great. 555 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: I think so too. All right, let's take a quick 556 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: break and collect our thoughts and take take the temperature 557 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: in here for a second, and we will be right 558 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: back with more sort of conclusions that these researchers came to, 559 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: and frankly, a whole lot more questions for you, because 560 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: we don't have this all figured out and I'd love 561 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: to hear what you have to say. So we'll be 562 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: right back after this quick break, and we're back, and 563 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: this is a big burly topic, So thanks for hanging 564 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: in there with us, listeners, slash. We're not sorry, because 565 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: I hope that the sort of the pain and challenge 566 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: of weeding through this stuff is like resonating because I 567 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: think we're all trying to figure this out if we 568 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: have any semblance of wanting to have ambition peacefully coexist 569 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: with love. That is what I've been writing about, by 570 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: the way, since high school and college. Like my my college, 571 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: what you might call a thesis, which was just a 572 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: really long paper, wasn't technically a thesis, was on gender 573 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: equality and romantic love amongst heterosexual couples. So that's like 574 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: bringing it back home for you of your writing and research, 575 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: like we could have a whole like podcast about the 576 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: philosophies behind romantic love and behind gender equality. And sadly, 577 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: that paper ended with there are no solutions. That's also 578 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: that paper ended with like they are fundamentally incongruent. But 579 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: here's here's the thing, right, let's look at the research 580 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: that we're we've been unpacking. All of these studies show 581 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: that women do, in fact censor their ambition, downplay their 582 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: ambition when they are single, and believe that it might 583 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: hurt their dating prospects. So two things they're One is 584 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: that we need to be able to make that choice 585 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: mindfully and not unconsciously. So if that's you know, if 586 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: you want to I think the burnet brown stuff also 587 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: comes back to the fact that if you if you 588 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: bring that shame into your dating life, you're going to 589 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: attract people who are attracted to a false version of you. Yes, 590 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: and that's I mean, that's never good for anything. I 591 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: used to sort of be the kind of girl who 592 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: would like pretend to be really into like sports and 593 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: like whatever other dumb stuff guys like, and then when 594 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: they like, you would know that you're not. Now it's like, 595 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I have, I have, I'm kind of like 596 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: learning as I go, and that like, I don't want 597 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: to pretend to be the kind of person who enjoy 598 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: stuff that I don't enjoy. And then you know, and 599 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: then later like be like, oh, actually I hate this, 600 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: and it's not fair to anybody. It's not fair to 601 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: me or to the person that I'm doing. Okay, And 602 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: the third thing here is that to keep in mind 603 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: that there are we're all bringing the context of antiquated 604 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: but sticking gender roles with us to these conversations. So 605 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: there are many ways in which we unconsciously, unconsciously have 606 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: internalized what it means to be a good woman and 607 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: being a non threatening, sweet, non ambitious person was wrapped 608 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: up in all that baggage that both men and women 609 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: are still dealing with in terms of the proclaimed man 610 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: who wants an ambitious woman but struggles with the fact 611 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: that that comes with a lot of stuff that he 612 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: might not have bargained for. I think we're still figuring 613 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: that stuff out, and like there's just I think it's 614 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: a lifetime of of what the research really comes to say, 615 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: which is open and honest conversation. I think it always 616 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: comes back to that, and I think, like you know, 617 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: it's I often say this on the show, but like 618 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 1: gender is like a mine field sometimes and it's it's 619 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: often difficult to see the ways that it shows up 620 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: in our personal lives, but it does. And it's like 621 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: our part of the whole trip of the patriarchy is 622 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: that we're all kind of unlearning it and unpacking it 623 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: together as we and like we don't we don't know 624 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: how it's going to show up, and even the most 625 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: like woke with it progressive couple, it's I mean, these 626 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: things are in grained, like it's they've been in grain 627 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: for so long that of course we can't escape them 628 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: even if we would like to write. And so having 629 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: conversations that are not just about your likes and dislikes 630 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: like do you like long walks on the beach with 631 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: painted gladas? Yeah, but also your career ambitions and expectations 632 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: about mutual support, What does that actually look like? How 633 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: does that change over time? And continue to have those conversations. 634 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: And that actually came out from another study that I 635 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: think is worth mentioning here, albeit briefly. Um, that shows 636 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: what happens a little further on down the life cycle 637 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: of this problem. So the initial problem we talked about 638 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: is women downplaying our ambition during the dating season of 639 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: life here um or at least dating season one, right 640 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: for whatever that should be a Netflix show, dating season one. Uh. 641 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: So here's what happens next. And I I really hate 642 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: to be the bearer of bad news on this, but 643 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: there's a research that found that women with high status 644 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: careers in particular more demanding career paths than their husbands. 645 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: So again, this is super heteronormative um lead to women, 646 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: those women being indeed more likely to experience feelings of 647 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: resentfulness or embarrassment, feeling that their status was somehow decreased 648 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: by their husband's lower status position, which has obviously a 649 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: negative impact on marital happiness US and an increased likelihood 650 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: of divorce. So whoa nelly. Okay, So here's what we've 651 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: done here. We've downplayed our ambition. We've reeled in a match. Okay, 652 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: we get married, then your career maybe takes off or 653 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: you have a lot of ambition, you get that highest 654 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: status career that you've been driving for your whole life, 655 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: and now you resent your husband as a result of that. 656 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: And I mean, it's like a recipe for an unhappy marriage. 657 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: And this is all because of gender roles, right, Like 658 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: it's a it's a recipe for not for like resentment 659 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: and bitterness. And then like I don't think this is 660 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: this is in the research, but like if you have 661 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: a kid in the mix, like it's just like the 662 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: idea of like, oh mom resents dad because because the 663 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: patriarchy forced gender roles, forced her to like be a 664 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: version of herself that she wasn't to attract him. Like 665 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: that's and there is there's one silver lining in this research. 666 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: There is a solution, a cure. The cure to not 667 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: having a resentful, high octane woman driving the career of 668 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: the family is when husbands provide or at least their 669 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:12,280 Speaker 1: wives felt that their husbands provide high levels of instrumental support, 670 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: such as helping with domestic responsibilities or child and elder care. 671 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: Then in that case, like having a higher status career 672 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: than your husband doesn't negatively impact your marital happiness, right, 673 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: And I think that's I mean that that makes so 674 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: much sense to me because women just want I mean, 675 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: like we don't want to feel supported, right, and we 676 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: want to feel like meaningfully supported and like tangibly. Yeah yeah, 677 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: where it's like you like, and this is I think 678 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: goes back to the analogy that you talked about with Brad, 679 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: where it's like, if you're a team, if one member 680 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: of the team is like killing it and like you know, 681 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: doing all of doing all the things, the other member 682 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: of the team is finding a way to also manfully 683 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: contribute to the team. And it's like even if even 684 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: if you know you're not to go with the shouldn't 685 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: be making sports analogies, but I'll try to. If you're 686 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: the like pitch hitter, like the number the stars escapes 687 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: my getting all out there, but like if you're the 688 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: star player on the team whatever, that like even if 689 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: you're like kind of on the bench as the power manager, 690 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,399 Speaker 1: you're still finding a way to support, right, Like, you're 691 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: still part of the same team. I shouldn't beautiful. But 692 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: also I think it's I mean, I have some weird 693 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: feelings about this because I like to think that I'm 694 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: motivated to contribute to my partnership, right think, there's definitely 695 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: this desire to make someone as happy as they've made 696 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: you or whatever that whatever you might want to call that. 697 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: Um that like, desire to contribute to the team as 698 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: a win, like whatever that win looks like. But would 699 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: we ever say this to women, Like, look at this research. 700 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: This research says, like, let's just sub about men for 701 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: women here for a second. The research basically says, if 702 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: we were to reverse the words men and women here, 703 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: it would say men in higher status careers resent their 704 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: wives unless their wives pitching tangibly at home. And so 705 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: I just find I mean, that would not be politically correct. 706 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: So this study kind of rubs me the wrong way. 707 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: Is like contribute, duh. Everybody wants to feel supported emotionally 708 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: and very practically when it comes to the care duties 709 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: of the work of unpaid labor. That goes into homemaking 710 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: and child rearing and elder care and all that stuff 711 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: that's unaccounted for in our economy, um and contributing to 712 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: the bottom line of the family budget. Right yeah, I 713 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: mean there you don't have to, like, there are other 714 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: ways to contribute to a domestic partnership than breadwinning, right, Like, 715 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: and I do think this is a whole other episode, 716 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: but like, like the domestic labor has been because it's 717 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: associated with women. I think that's why we valuate so 718 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: like childcare, elder care, domestic things that business. Actually, Amory 719 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: Slaughter wrote a book called Unfinished Business about that exact problem. 720 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: Justin Caroline did an episode shout out to them, because 721 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's so true, Like, and I think 722 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: that we we downplay that, but it's so important. And 723 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: it's like if you how are you able to go 724 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: out and do wage earning work if someone is not 725 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,959 Speaker 1: either you're paying for like a maide or a clip 726 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: to come do things where someone in your household is 727 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: doing that exactly. Sigh. It is a troubling one. It's 728 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: it calls into question, like, well, what the hell are 729 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: we supposed to do about it? Right, Like, as single 730 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: women who are potentially in the dating pool. Like we've 731 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: already talked through some of our coping mechanisms, but can 732 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: we also talk about what men can do? Yes, one 733 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 1: clean up around the house, but yeah, please do pitch 734 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: in equally. We're getting closer, but women, According to the 735 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: Washington Post last year, women are still doing twice the 736 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: amount of housework and child care duties in households and 737 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: which men and women both work full time. So let 738 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: that sink in for a second. And I also think, 739 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: like I hate the societal thing of like, oh, like 740 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: do you ever see those memes on social media that 741 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: are like, um, if a woman does cook, like she's not. 742 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: It's like like learn how to Like we should be 743 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: teaching both boys and girls at an early age how 744 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: to take care of yourself, how to cook, how to 745 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: clean injury, all of that, Like this idea that like 746 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: it's a woman's job to come in and like do that. 747 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: Like that's not cute, that's not good. So I think 748 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: to hammer it to sort of bring this baby home here. 749 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: I think we want to make conscious choices about being 750 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: clear with ourselves and our loved ones about our ambition 751 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: professionally knowing that you don't have to be super crazy ambitious. 752 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: You don't have to want to travel all the time 753 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: for work, You don't have to want to seek out 754 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,479 Speaker 1: a high paying job. But if you do, maybe don't 755 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: suppress that desire, especially while you're in the dating markets 756 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: and accounting for the unconscious habit that has now been 757 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: proven that women tend to shy away from being clear 758 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: about their ambition professionally around single men, Like is that 759 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: a thing that you're experiencing if you're not in the 760 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: dating pool, if you're not looking to get married, if 761 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: you're not attracting a male partner, like I don't know, tbd, 762 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: Like I would love more research on this. I think 763 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: the researchers actually ended that study by saying, we need 764 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: to test inhibiting factors. We need to test um how 765 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: women can deal with this, and we also need men 766 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: to check that unconscious bias against ambitious women, Like we 767 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: need you to be down with ambitious women and be 768 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: down with what actually comes with ambitious women, or at 769 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: the very least, don't have that cognitive dissonance between say 770 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: you want what you actually want totally just like I mean, 771 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: I keep saying this, but like show up as your 772 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: authentic self, right, like if you if you just scary, 773 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: it is scary, and it's and it's a chat. We 774 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: have to sort of like what you were saying at 775 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: the beginning of the show of unlearning, like challenging yourself 776 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: to unlearn being demeure about your accomplishments. I think we 777 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: all have to agree challenge ourselves to show up and 778 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: the way that we need to to make to make 779 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: this make this thing work. Yeah, because the people that 780 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: become unattracked did to you when you're being your unapologetically 781 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: ambitious self are people that you would rather weed out. Yeah, 782 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: you don't want that, you don't need anyway, ding ding ding. 783 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: I think that is a secret happiness. I also think, 784 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, we could do a whole episode on this 785 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: around Burnet Brown's research and a lot of the social 786 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,240 Speaker 1: work that's been done from the sociological perspective on shame 787 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: and why we why it is scary to show up 788 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: as your authentic self. Um, but we were. We want 789 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: to hear from you, I mean girls, we need to 790 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: hear from you. We need from you folks who are 791 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: not folks. This is again a very heateronormative episode. We 792 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: want to hear how other kinds of couples are doing it. 793 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that gay couples have figured this out, 794 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: I really do, Like I think I have a feeling 795 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: that when you've already bucked all of the gender normative, 796 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: heteronormative gender roles that come with relationships, I have a 797 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: feeling that the gays will lead the way on this. 798 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: So please tell us. Tell us what this experience has 799 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: been like for you, because clearly we're still struggling with it. Um, 800 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: and tell us about if you're a man listening to this, 801 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: tell us what it's been like to unlearn some of 802 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: the unconscious habits at or feelings that you might have 803 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: or attitudes that you might have been taught to feel 804 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: about having a high octane woman on your arm? Like, 805 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: what does it look like to have a girlfriend whose 806 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: career is crushing it? Um? Do you feel threatened? Women? 807 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: Do you feel threatening? Like I sometimes do or did 808 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: and now I don't care that I do, but you know, like, 809 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: how do you how do you get over that? Yeah? 810 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: Please please write if we want to hear it all, 811 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: please write. It's clearly something that we're like struggling with 812 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: in real time. So we can work through this together. Yeah. 813 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: Please don't hesitate to drop us a line on Instagram 814 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: at stuff mom Never Told You, on Twitter at mom 815 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast, and get in our inbox at mom Stuff 816 00:43:50,520 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. One four