1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,800
Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: the BNAF podcast. So, as mister McGuire said to Ben

3
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: in the graduate, just one word plastics, there's a great

4
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: future in plastics. Think about it all right. I'm pretty

5
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,840
Speaker 1: sure that it was delivered slightly better in the movie

6
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,280
Speaker 1: and possibly on this show, because I don't think it's

7
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,759
Speaker 1: the first time we've actually used that quote, but I

8
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 1: think about it every time when we talk about plastic recycling.

9
00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 1: So here we are at Biennia doing some thinking about

10
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 1: plastics again. Plastic production is set to double between twenty

11
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 1: twenty two and twenty fifty, so action is needed to

12
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 1: address the inefficiencies in the existing recycling process. At the moment,

13
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,520
Speaker 1: only seven to ten percent of it is actually recycled.

14
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: So four years ago on this show, we discussed chemical recycling,

15
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:47,960
Speaker 1: and at the time it was an up and coming

16
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: technology that could potentially help address issues with lower grade

17
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 1: feedstocks that the existing system can't recycle. So on today's show,

18
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,880
Speaker 1: four years on, we're going to revisit chemical recycling and

19
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,160
Speaker 1: look at what's chained in the intervening period. I'm joined

20
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,080
Speaker 1: today by Kirti Vasta, who's a senior associate from our

21
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,399
Speaker 1: Sustainable Materials team. Kirti recently wrote a two part note

22
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,080
Speaker 1: which reviews the science behind chemical recycling. She also gets

23
00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,080
Speaker 1: into the expanding capacity in the near term and the

24
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: forecast for the longer term, and she also thinks about

25
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,000
Speaker 1: the investors who are in this market. To access parts

26
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,680
Speaker 1: one and two of Karti's recent research on chemical recycling

27
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,120
Speaker 1: of plastics, B and e F subscribers are going to

28
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,800
Speaker 1: be able to find it at BNF dot com or

29
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg terminal. Now, if you like this podcast,

30
00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,840
Speaker 1: make sure to subscribe to receive updates on future shows,

31
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,759
Speaker 1: and if you want to share us with others, give

32
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 1: us a review. But right now, let's jump into our

33
00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: conversation with Kirti Vasta to find out what is the

34
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 1: latest in chemical recycling. Kerti, thank you for coming on

35
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 1: the show today.

36
00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:58,160
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

37
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 1: We are here for an update on the chemical recycling space. Now,

38
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 1: for those who aren't familiar, we're going to talk about

39
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: this and actually get into some more detail. But really

40
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,919
Speaker 1: what's happening from a policy standpoint, economics, market dynamics, and

41
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,919
Speaker 1: we're going to update because actually on switched on we

42
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,680
Speaker 1: add a whole show dedicated to the fundamentals of chemical

43
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,720
Speaker 1: recycling back in twenty twenty. But let's just assume that

44
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 1: nobody's listening to every single one of our episodes and

45
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,960
Speaker 1: they remember exactly what we said four years ago. So, Katy,

46
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 1: can you just talk a little bit about chemical recycling

47
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 1: from a definition standpoint and how it differs from mechanical recycling.

48
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,840
Speaker 2: So maybe before I dive into exactly what chemical recycling is,

49
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 2: it might be helpful to just take a step back

50
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 2: and explain the majority of recycling processes today and how

51
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,640
Speaker 2: they work and how it relates to chemical recycling. So,

52
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,919
Speaker 2: the majority of recycling infrastructure in place today is mechanical recycling. Now,

53
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 2: this is a fairly simple process. What it essentially involves

54
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,120
Speaker 2: is plastic waste being sold by grade and type and

55
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,959
Speaker 2: then being washed and shredded and melted back into pellets

56
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,239
Speaker 2: which can then be used to produce plastics.

57
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 1: Again.

58
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 2: Now, this is, as I mentioned, a fairly simple process

59
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 2: and often leads to waste that is of quite a

60
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,280
Speaker 2: low grade, doesn't always go back into high quality packaging materials,

61
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 2: and can often have a few challenges associated to it

62
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 2: around the efficiency of that yield, and of course the

63
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 2: sorting process can be quite a challenge. It it has to

64
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,200
Speaker 2: be very meticulously sorted, and of course that can be

65
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 2: costly considering the different types of colors and grades and

66
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 2: types of plastics that are in our packaging and our

67
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 2: materials today.

68
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 1: So this is an industry ripe per disruption. It's too complicated.

69
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 1: Inter Chemical recycling, yes.

70
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 2: So chemical recycling is a broad term that refers to

71
00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 2: new forms of recycling using chemical processors. And an analogy

72
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 2: I like to use here is something quite similar to

73
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 2: unbaking the cake. Right, so assume your plastics is the cake.

74
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,280
Speaker 2: You're basically stripping down plastics back to its original ingredients.

75
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 2: So this is in some cases your flour, your sugar,

76
00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,720
Speaker 2: your eggs, but in the case of plastics, it would

77
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 2: be the hydrocarbons. So this is the oil that has

78
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 2: originally gone into producing plastic. And the best part of

79
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 2: chemical recycling is that you can actually make virgin quality

80
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,239
Speaker 2: plastics again given that you strip down your waist into

81
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,880
Speaker 2: the original ingredients that it was made of, and that

82
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 2: can go back into producing high quality plastics. Again that

83
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,680
Speaker 2: can go into packaging and your sensitive contact materials.

84
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,599
Speaker 1: So getting it to that virgin grade must be really

85
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 1: important because when I think of the plastics that are used,

86
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 1: for example, that are possible to be used for food

87
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,359
Speaker 1: preparation or to hold food, is actually what I'm thinking of,

88
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,360
Speaker 1: is that where needing virgin quality plastics is really really

89
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: important or is it across all applications that virgin materials

90
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,520
Speaker 1: are actually preferred.

91
00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 2: That the area of packaging is currently where the biggest

92
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 2: demand is for chemically recycled or high quality recycled plastics. So,

93
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,640
Speaker 2: as we know, there's the plastics crisis ongoing, Mismanaged waste

94
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 2: is ending up in our oceans and our environment, and

95
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 2: a lot of brand owners of companies like Pepsi, Coca Cola,

96
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 2: do None are setting targets now to really manage that

97
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 2: waste and improve their packaging to incorporate more recycled material now.

98
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,280
Speaker 2: In order for them to do that, they need a

99
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 2: high quality material that can be food contacts approved, it

100
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 2: can be going into packaging materials and the like. So

101
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,840
Speaker 2: this is where chemical recycling really poses as an opportunity.

102
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,479
Speaker 2: Considering the mechanically recycled material that's currently on the market,

103
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, is often of quite a low grade.

104
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 1: So consumer brands that are actually using plastic packaging are

105
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 1: now coming up with different targets to try and get

106
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 1: more of the plastic recycled, which then makes the question

107
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,279
Speaker 1: how much of existing plastic waste actually is being recycled

108
00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: right now.

109
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 2: So right now it's extremely low. Globally, plastics recycling is

110
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,080
Speaker 2: around seven to ten percent, and that's extremely low. That's

111
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,160
Speaker 2: way too low, absolutely, and that can vary right between

112
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,760
Speaker 2: different markets. So in Europe it's a little bit better

113
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 2: because the infrastructure for recycling is already in place, but

114
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 2: if you look at developing countries, it's extremely low. Often

115
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 2: plastic waste just ends up getting incinerated and land filled,

116
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,599
Speaker 2: and so there is a real challenge here. And what's

117
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,800
Speaker 2: exciting about chemical recycling actually is that a lot of

118
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 2: this waste that's often mismanaged it cannot be recycled, can

119
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,680
Speaker 2: actually be recycled through chemical recycling processes. So chemical recycling

120
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 2: can accept mixed bales of plastic waste, so this is

121
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,039
Speaker 2: all of your different types and colors and grades of

122
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 2: plastics with a certain level of contamination. It can then

123
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,400
Speaker 2: take that waste and process it and produce the hydrocarbons

124
00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,119
Speaker 2: that can then go into making plastics again.

125
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,320
Speaker 1: So such a small amount of plastics are actually being recycled,

126
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:57,960
Speaker 1: and I am thinking back to the show that we

127
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,440
Speaker 1: did over four years ago on this time, and I

128
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,320
Speaker 1: think the number was roughly the same back then. There

129
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: just isn't a lot that's actually being recycled. So the

130
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,680
Speaker 1: exciting thing about chemical recycling is that we could get

131
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 1: more of our plastic waste recycled. Are there projects that

132
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,600
Speaker 1: are happening right now or reasons that we might see

133
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 1: in the industry to believe that this might be the

134
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: right time to see chemical recycling scale and actually fulfill

135
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: its potential to increase the amount of our waste stream

136
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,320
Speaker 1: that's actually being turned over.

137
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely yes. So Actually, in the last two or three

138
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,120
Speaker 2: years at BINF we've been tracking capacity of chemical recycling projects,

139
00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 2: and since twenty twenty, we've tracked around forty new chemical

140
00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 2: recycling plants being announced. That accounts for about two point

141
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 2: three million tons of expected capacity that's likely to be

142
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 2: commissioned by twenty thirty. So this is really exciting because

143
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 2: it can really fill that gap that's currently in the

144
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 2: market in terms of managing and dealing with this this

145
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 2: waste that's very difficult and hard to recycle. Of course,

146
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,200
Speaker 2: this is still only announced capacity, but it is quite

147
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 2: exciting to see that companies are really jumping on board

148
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 2: now and planning to build this capacity in different parts

149
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 2: of the world.

150
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 1: So these new projects and these new plants that are

151
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 1: going in, what type of chemical recycling are they actually

152
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,600
Speaker 1: going to be? Because there are kind of two subsets

153
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,440
Speaker 1: of this, which is feedstock recycling and monomer recycling, And

154
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: I want to know which of the two is getting

155
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,120
Speaker 1: better adoption and might be the bigger one of the two.

156
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,280
Speaker 2: So let me start with monomer recycling. So this is

157
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,440
Speaker 2: essentially a process whereby plastics like polyethylene territhylate also known

158
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 2: as PET, so this is what your clear plastic water

159
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 2: bottles are made of and polystyrene are basically broken down

160
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 2: into that monomer level, so they go from a polymer

161
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 2: to a monomer. And this is often a fairly energy

162
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 2: intensive process. But what it then means is that plastics

163
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 2: which previously would not be easily recycled, can then go

164
00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,760
Speaker 2: through this process and we get a higher grade, a

165
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,320
Speaker 2: high equality of scrap, but also more feedstock can actually

166
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 2: go through this process and produce the monomers to then

167
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 2: go back into plastics. Now, what's really exciting about monomery

168
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 2: recycling is that it's not only plastic packaging materials that

169
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 2: actually can go through this process. So actually just last

170
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,160
Speaker 2: month we had an announcement from BASF who is basically

171
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 2: using the same process to actually produce recycled nylon which

172
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 2: is going into jackets that are being sold in Zara.

173
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 2: So this is actually a really interesting application for all

174
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 2: types of polymers which can go through this process of

175
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:35,600
Speaker 2: monomer recycling.

176
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,680
Speaker 1: So when I see this item is made from recycled

177
00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,360
Speaker 1: plastic bottles, that is essentially the process it's going through,

178
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 1: and we can think about chemical recycling as really the

179
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 1: technology that was used to make that possible.

180
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,200
Speaker 2: Yes, now there is still a gap in terms of

181
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,840
Speaker 2: how much material is being chemically recycled. So for example,

182
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,679
Speaker 2: pet bottles, that is actually one of the most easily

183
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,680
Speaker 2: recycled plastic today, and a lot of it can actually

184
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 2: be mechanically recycl called quite well. But where chemical recycling

185
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 2: is really going to make a dent in the market

186
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 2: is for the flexible wrappers and films that are very

187
00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,400
Speaker 2: hard to recycle today, and that's something that isn't quite

188
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,840
Speaker 2: on the market yet as a chemically recycled product. And

189
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 2: then the other type of recycling process that we look

190
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 2: at is feedstock recycling, and this is often a process

191
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 2: called pyrolysis, which is basically heating up plastic waste in

192
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 2: the absence of oxygen to produce a type of naptha

193
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 2: or a pyrolysis oil, which can then be used to

194
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,679
Speaker 2: produce your plastics again. Now, this is actually the most

195
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,920
Speaker 2: popular form of chemical recycling capacity that we're seeing being announced.

196
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 2: About seventy percent of all the capacity we've tracked actually

197
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,000
Speaker 2: is for feedstock recycling, and a lot of this is

198
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 2: actually being led by plastics producers, including companies like Exomobile,

199
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 2: Lined or Bizell Borealis to Some of these companies are

200
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 2: the traditional oil and gas companies who are thinking about

201
00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 2: ways in which they can introduce more sustainable feedstock into

202
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,440
Speaker 2: their value chain and also are basically responding to what

203
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 2: their customers are now demanding, which is more recycled, more

204
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 2: greener products for their products and packaging.

205
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 1: So there are two benefits here when we think about recycling,

206
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,280
Speaker 1: and this really a broader conversation around circular economy. One

207
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,560
Speaker 1: is the reduction of waste and the things that you'd

208
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: pointed out with plastic ending up in the ocean and

209
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, in some cases ultimately our food. But then

210
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,959
Speaker 1: there are the emissions associated with recycling plastics and reducing

211
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 1: the overall emissions through not using virgin materials and the

212
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 1: emissions associated with extraction. Are these waste streams through these

213
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,520
Speaker 1: new plants ultimately being made more local and also reducing

214
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 1: the shipping and supply chain related emissions, or are their

215
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,319
Speaker 1: centers of the world where most of this chemical recycling

216
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 1: is likely to be placed and we're going to be

217
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,120
Speaker 1: strapped with those shipping related emissions for some time to come.

218
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,680
Speaker 2: That's a great question. And right now, because the market

219
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 2: is still quite new, a lot of this capacity that

220
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 2: has been announ hasn't yet come online officially. Right we're

221
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 2: just starting to see the first large scale plants actually

222
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 2: come online. It's going to be really interesting to see

223
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 2: how this kind of dynamic evolves and where exactly chemical

224
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 2: recycling plants are located. There's currently this debate if chemical

225
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,720
Speaker 2: recycling plants are located close to existing waste management facilities.

226
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 2: What's really great is what could happen is all of

227
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,040
Speaker 2: the waste that can be mechanically recycled using the existing infrastructure.

228
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 2: Would be mechanically recycled first, so that would be like

229
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,720
Speaker 2: your rigid plastics, your pet bottles, your shampoo bottles, and

230
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 2: detergent bottles, which are made of HDPE high density polyethylene.

231
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 2: That's often an easily recycled material. And then all of

232
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,240
Speaker 2: the rest of the plastics which can't be easily recycled,

233
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 2: will go through a chemical recycling plant. And what that

234
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,800
Speaker 2: means is for a chemical recycler is they're located very

235
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,160
Speaker 2: close to the existing feedstock stream that might be the

236
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 2: remainder of waste from a material recovery facility site. And

237
00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,960
Speaker 2: so that's kind of one way that they could be positioned.

238
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 2: It would reduce their car in terms of shipping the

239
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,440
Speaker 2: feedstock that they need from maybe other areas of the country. Now,

240
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,439
Speaker 2: another way which we see potential chemical recycling plants being

241
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 2: positioned is at a petrochemical facility. So this would be

242
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 2: integrated within a large petrochemical complex, for example, and the

243
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 2: benefit there would be that they would have the existing infrastructure,

244
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 2: so this is like the pipes and the tanks to

245
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 2: store the different types of feedstocks that are being produced

246
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,920
Speaker 2: and This would also result in a cost saving if

247
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 2: the chemical recycling plants were to be located here, and

248
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,319
Speaker 2: then the feedstock produced would go straight into a steam

249
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 2: cracker at the petrochemical facility and also result in a

250
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:38,080
Speaker 2: cost saving.

251
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: Can you talk about some of the companies that are

252
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 1: actually in this space. Are there big brands that are

253
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: doing this and is it being spun out from existing

254
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 1: companies like, for example, the chemical recycling companies or the

255
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 1: petrochemical companies or are they new companies that are looking

256
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 1: to join partnerships with these existing players in this space.

257
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,640
Speaker 2: Yes, So what's really interesting in this market is that

258
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,000
Speaker 2: there is a really diverse group of players. So you've

259
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,079
Speaker 2: got the pure play chemical recycling companies. These are fairly new,

260
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 2: early stage startups. So companies include mirror technology, plastics, energy,

261
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 2: and what they're doing is they are in many cases

262
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 2: partnering with plastics producers. So this is companies like Dow

263
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 2: Lined or Bezel to actually sell the feedstock that they're

264
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,840
Speaker 2: producing from their chemical recycling plants to these companies that

265
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 2: want to produce more recycled plastics. The other really interesting

266
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 2: area that we've seen companies get involved in is the

267
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 2: brand owners companies like the non Nesle, Coca Cola that

268
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 2: have targets to really increase the amount of recycled material

269
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,960
Speaker 2: in their products are forming partnerships directly with chemical recyclers

270
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,120
Speaker 2: like Loop Industries, for example. And this is mostly around

271
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 2: pet given that that's really one of the areas where

272
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 2: a lot of demand for the recycling material is today.

273
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 1: So you've mentioned some of the consumer brands that have

274
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,800
Speaker 1: created these targets. How are they incentivizing people to actually

275
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 1: recycle these things properly if you will? Are they just

276
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,080
Speaker 1: going into the usual municipal waste streams and it's about

277
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 1: how well things are then collected from that point, I mean,

278
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 1: I guess my question is really how are they going

279
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: about achieving their targets.

280
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question. So for some companies

281
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,920
Speaker 2: like Denan Nesle, they have targets to increase their post

282
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,720
Speaker 2: consumer recycled content in their products and packaging by fifty

283
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 2: percent by twenty twenty five. Now twenty twenty five is

284
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,880
Speaker 2: round the corner, and we know that that material isn't

285
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 2: quite on the market and isn't available for these brand

286
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 2: owners to really make use of and incorporate today. So

287
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 2: it's a really interesting question to see kind of what

288
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,840
Speaker 2: exactly will happen and how these companies will reach their

289
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 2: targets by next year. One thing they should absolutely be

290
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,360
Speaker 2: doing more of is thinking about the end of life

291
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 2: management options for their plastic packaging. What we have seen

292
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 2: is some companies redesigning their packaging to make it more recyclable.

293
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 2: I know Coca Cola has recently introduced right bottles without

294
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,800
Speaker 2: the label around the side of it, which is basically

295
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 2: reducing the amount of packaging needed but also improving that

296
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 2: recyclability of that material. So these are sorts of design

297
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 2: changes which we're likely to see more of as this

298
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 2: material becomes kind of more in demand and required on

299
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 2: the market.

300
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: Is there a policy pressure in policy incentives to increase recycling.

301
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 2: Yes, So policy is the one thing that I would

302
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,840
Speaker 2: say has really changed since the last time that we

303
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 2: looked at this area of chemical recycling and the impact

304
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 2: it can have. So in the last few years, we've

305
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,440
Speaker 2: seen governments introduce post consumer recycle content mandates. For example,

306
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 2: in the UK, there's currently a thirty percent recycled content

307
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 2: mandate for all plastic packaging on the market today, and

308
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 2: if that isn't met there's a plastics tax which is

309
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,200
Speaker 2: imposed on companies, so this is really driving demand now

310
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 2: for more recycled material on the market. Now, we did

311
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 2: some number crunching to really understand what the demand and

312
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,480
Speaker 2: supply looks like currently in the UK, and we believe

313
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 2: there's quite a significant supplied deficit of around thirty thousand

314
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,479
Speaker 2: metric tons of recycled plastic, which is high grade and

315
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,679
Speaker 2: can go back into some of these packaging applications. In

316
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,080
Speaker 2: other markets as well, Europe is considering a similar post

317
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 2: consumer recycled content mandate. France Spain that have also introduced

318
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 2: similar mandates, So this is really pushing corporates that maybe

319
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,119
Speaker 2: don't have their targets in place already to have to

320
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 2: abide by these rules as well.

321
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 1: So policy makers want to see more recycled, the brands

322
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 1: themselves want to see more recycled, and I think most

323
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 1: everyday citizens I'm just going to speak from my own

324
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: heart here, would like to see less plastic in the

325
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,199
Speaker 1: waste stream and more things being turned around in the

326
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 1: circular economy. But then that brings us to the economics

327
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,639
Speaker 1: of it all and whether or not that really holds up.

328
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,000
Speaker 1: So let's just talk a little bit about the green

329
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 1: premium that's currently associated with certain types of pet and

330
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,919
Speaker 1: really how big that is.

331
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 2: So at BINGF, what we did was some economic analysis

332
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 2: to really understand how profitable chemical recycling plants could be. Now,

333
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 2: the advantages, of course, chemical recyclers have a low feeds

334
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 2: doot cost because they're using a low quality scrap which

335
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,399
Speaker 2: would otherwise be incinerated or landfilled, and they're producing a

336
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 2: very high quality, potentially virgin quality material, which means that

337
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 2: you can sell it on the market at the same price.

338
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 2: But in the last few years, what's also been really

339
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: interesting to see is the green premium that's been stacked

340
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 2: on top of that virgin price for some of these

341
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 2: recycled plastics. And so we think currently for materials like

342
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 2: pet and polyethylenes which are chemically recycled, given the green

343
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,359
Speaker 2: credentials of those materials, there's roughly a fifty percent green

344
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 2: premium above the virgin price in markets like the US

345
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 2: and Europe. So fifty percent is of course a huge

346
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,640
Speaker 2: markup right, And as a result, what we also looked

347
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 2: at is the internal rate of return of projects. So

348
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 2: we looked at a typical chemical recycling plant in the

349
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,160
Speaker 2: US and what we found is that the IRRs can

350
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 2: be in the range of fourteen percent to twenty two percent,

351
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 2: which is really quite high.

352
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,399
Speaker 1: As we think about the future, do you expect to

353
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 1: see these IRRs staying at this relatively high place or

354
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 1: do you think things are going to actually get cheaper

355
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 1: in the future making this an easier market to enter.

356
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a great question. What we did in

357
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,159
Speaker 2: our report was we broke down the different cost components

358
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 2: associated with a chemical recycling plant. So we looked at

359
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 2: the capex costs, the opex costs, and of course the

360
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 2: feeds dot costs as well. And what we found actually

361
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,479
Speaker 2: is compared to the previous year when we looked at

362
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 2: the economics of these recycling plants, that capex costs have

363
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 2: actually risen quite a lot and it's had a pretty

364
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: significant impact if we look at the overall costs associated

365
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 2: to building these plants. And that's of course, because construction

366
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 2: costs have increased over time, energy costs have as well,

367
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 2: material costs have, and so a lot of the plants

368
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 2: that were planned to come online back in twenty twenty

369
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 2: one and twenty twenty two actually got pushed back and

370
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,959
Speaker 2: delayed because of these rising costs and in some cases

371
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 2: because of permitting delays as well. So if capex continues

372
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 2: to rise over time, this could pose a problem to

373
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 2: the returns that these plants could make, but we are

374
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: hoping to see them stabilize somewhat and that to get

375
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 2: easier over time. The other area that is really interesting

376
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 2: here is the feedstock costs. So currently there isn't really

377
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 2: a commoditized, transparent market for plastic scrap, and it's a

378
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 2: challenge for chemical recyclists to really get hold of the

379
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 2: scrap that they need in the correct format at a

380
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 2: price which is affordable for them to process. Scrap Prices

381
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: for pet for example, in the US, have been particularly

382
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,159
Speaker 2: volatile over the last three or four years, as have

383
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 2: hdpe prices. So these are really interesting market dynamics which

384
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 2: can have a really big impact in terms of how

385
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 2: it can change the economics of these plants.

386
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about how people may be

387
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 1: perceiving the recycled plastics and actually why with an end

388
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 1: consumer item, I might see, you know, ninety percent recycled

389
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: plastics instead of one hundred percent recycled, and where there

390
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: are needs to actually blend the recycled with the virgin feedstocks.

391
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 2: So today the industry is still very far from producing

392
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 2: one hundred percent chemically recycled plastics, but as the technology

393
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 2: scales and more capacity comes online, we do expect to

394
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 2: get closer to that one hundred percent mark. But currently

395
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 2: what actually happens is, particularly from feedstock recycling, we get

396
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: the pyrolysis oil, and often that pyrolysis oil doesn't meet

397
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 2: the specifications that are required to produce plastics because they

398
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 2: still have some forms of additives that are used in

399
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: the original plastic manufacturing process. So that pyrolysis oil it

400
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: has two options that either can go through an upgrading process,

401
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 2: which is purifying that oil to make it meet the specifications,

402
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: or it can be blended with virgin feedstock, so that

403
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 2: could be your napther, and that would then produce a

404
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,719
Speaker 2: higher grade plastic, again with a certain share of that recycled. Now,

405
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: a lot of the plastics that use chemically recycled feedstocks

406
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 2: today use the blending approach because often it's cheaper to do.

407
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 2: What we've found in our research is the upgrading the

408
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 2: purification stage can be fairly costly and really is only

409
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 2: an advantage to chemical recyclers that have access to some

410
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,640
Speaker 2: of these hydrotreaters and upgrading plants.

411
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: So we're talking a lot about how we essentially make

412
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: plastics from plastics and really some of the challenges, whether

413
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: they're economic or actually chemical in this process. But there

414
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 1: is another place where these recycled plastics can actually go.

415
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about the materials in you know,

416
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: my zip up jacket from whatever store I bought it from,

417
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: but actually that's fuels. Can you talk a little bit

418
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: about the adoption on that end and some of the

419
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 1: issues that might be posed from a market dynamic standpoint.

420
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 2: So coming back to feedstock recycling, since the output from

421
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: pyrolysis process is something like a hydrocarbon mix like a

422
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: naptha or a diesel. What we've seen in very early

423
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 2: stages of chemical recycling back in twenty twenty and twenty

424
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: twenty one with some of that feedstock actually not going

425
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 2: into producing plastics but actually being diverted to fuel in

426
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: ships and trucks. Now, in our view, this is not

427
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 2: a circular economy solution. We want to see feedstock remaining

428
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: in circulation for as long as possible, and if it's

429
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: being burnt through being in the fuel markets. That is

430
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: not the place where we see this the market for

431
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 2: this product. Instead, it should really be directed back into

432
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: the plastics market, and that's really in the last few

433
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: years where we've seen the highest amount of demand and

434
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 2: where we do believe that the recycled feedstock is going,

435
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 2: especially because there is this green premium that I mentioned

436
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: which can actually really incentivize recyclers to divert their feedstock

437
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: to the plastic market.

438
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: So this would not be then considered a sustainable fuel

439
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: because I think about sometimes like sustainable aviation fuel that's

440
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: made from feedstocks that actually come from different plans. A

441
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: recycled feedstock going into fuel would not then be considered

442
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: a sustainable fuel in these circumstances.

443
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: It would not know And the reason why is because

444
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: that carbon, the embodied carbon in that material is released

445
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: back out into the atmosphere.

446
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: So, Kurty, you tell me a little bit about where

447
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: you see this as going and if this is a

448
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: space that is really growing quite quickly, or if we

449
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: did this episode in another four years we would be

450
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: standing still.

451
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. Well, so I'm quite an optimist when

452
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: I think about chemical recycling, particularly because of the whole

453
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: attention that plastics and plastics recycling is getting At the moment.

454
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: We also have the UN Global Plastics Treaty which is

455
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: currently in negotiation, and that's moving towards a binding legal

456
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: agreement across these UN member states to actually come up

457
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 2: with a way to end plastic pollution. And chemical recycling

458
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 2: could really play a crucial role in achieving this by

459
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: having the ability to process the hard to recycle waste. So,

460
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: in my view, I think we are likely to see

461
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: a lot of this capacity come online just because we're

462
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: seeing the policy incentives, We've got the green premiums on

463
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 2: the market, and companies are really getting on board in

464
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 2: terms of really pushing to build this capacity. It's really

465
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: just going to be a question of how quickly and when.

466
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: Great. Thank you so much for sharing an update and

467
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: your views on where this really exciting market is going.

468
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me.

469
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: Tana Switched On is produced by cam Gray with production

470
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: assistance from Kamala Shelling and Lushi Karunarete. Bloomberg NEIF is

471
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates.

472
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed

473
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: as investment and vice investment recommendations, or a recommendation as

474
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: to an investment or other strategy Bloomberg ENNIF should not

475
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: be considered as information sufficient upon which to base an

476
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its

477
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: affiliates makes any representation or warranty as to the accuracy

478
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: or completeness of the information contained in this recording, and

479
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: any liability as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.