1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A so called jealous a 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: boyfriend walks into a police station, apparently bragging he murdered 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: his gorgeous young girlfriend because she stayed out overnight. I'm 4 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 5 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: with us. I'm talking about she looks like a young, 6 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: beautiful Kim Kardashian. That's what she looks like. She's absolutely 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: stunning and is just twenty one years old. She looks 8 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: like Kim Kardashian before there was ever a lot of 9 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: plastic surgery. Youthful, innocent looking, long black hair, beautiful, big 10 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: brown eyes, with the world in front of her. Again, 11 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: a young man walks in to a police station, apparently 12 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: bragging that she got what she deserved because she stayed 13 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: out overnight. Straight out to Ellen McLaurin, Crime online dot 14 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, Ellen, First of all, I want you 15 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: to listen to our friends at wpix TV. Twenty one 16 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: year old Indira loved fashion and was always seen dressed up, 17 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: but that could have cost her her life. This friend 18 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: and neighbor does not want to be identified, but tells 19 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: pixe eleven Rivera was beautiful and that her twenty three 20 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: year old boyfriend was jealous. She says he was no 21 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: good and Wednesday evening, Rodriguez walked into the forty six 22 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: precinct and allegedly confessed to murder. He even gave detectives 23 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: the keys to the couple's apartment here on Nelson Avenue 24 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: in the Morse Sight section of the Bronx, and details 25 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: on where to find his girlfriend's body. When police arrived, 26 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: Rivera was found strangled to death on the bathroom floor. 27 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: You were hearing our friend Nicole Johnson reporting on what 28 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: we know so far, Ellen Colauren. It's bad enough that 29 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: there is a murder number one, but number two to 30 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: seemingly brag about it to police, that's right, Nancy. He 31 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: walks into a police precinct on Wednesday, he says, I 32 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: had a physical fight with my girlfriend. I choked her. 33 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: She's dead. Then he hands over the keys to their apartment. 34 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. It wasn't right away. It was 35 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: two days later that he kept that poor young woman's 36 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: body in their apartments. Okay, I'm gonna need a shrink 37 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: on that, But take a listen to what our friends 38 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: at NBC for say. Angel Felice Rodriguez may have left 39 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: here in handcuffs after turning himself into authorities, but he 40 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: didn't have much to say otherwise. Angel Felice Rodriguez is 41 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: facing charges including murder and man's laughter in connection to 42 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: the death of his own girlfriend, whom he shared a 43 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: home with on Nelson Avenue. That girlfriend identified by police 44 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: as twenty one year old and Darra Ramirez Rivetta Now. 45 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: The NYPD says she was found unconscious and unresponsive in 46 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: her basement apartment around six thirty last night, with trauma 47 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: to her neck that was so severe she was pronounced 48 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: dead at the scene. And we spoke to people around 49 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: her neighborhood who knew her well, very globable, never roll nothing. 50 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: She was just a good girl, you know, going to work, 51 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: coming home, she worked all day, came straight home to this. 52 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: You know, I don't get it to Ashley Wilcot, Jeeve 53 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: and I'll judge lawyer. You can find her at Ashley 54 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: Wilcot dot com. Ashley, it's bad enough that there's yet 55 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: another domestic homicide, but he seemingly is bragging that he 56 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: did it because she stayed out late. Yeah, you know 57 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: the fact that he murdered her is one thing, but 58 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: it also shows you insight into his mental state that 59 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: he bragged about it. He thinks it's okay. He still 60 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: thinks she deserved it. He doesn't get you don't get 61 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: to kill people. He thinks in his mind a sound 62 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: like I'm no psychologist, but hey, it's okay. She deserved 63 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: it because she stayed out night all night, so I 64 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong, you know, then really making no 65 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: bones about it, get just handing over the keys to 66 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: the cops like they're go ahead. What does he think? 67 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: It's an all boys club and they're not going to 68 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: prosecute him because she stayed out all night and she's 69 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: gotten punished. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics, 70 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: jacksonvill State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet 71 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: on Amazon, tell me what we know about her body, 72 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: and remember we're learning this after she has been lying 73 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: there for two days, you know, Nancy. One report that 74 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: I'm reading is stating that one EMT is reported to 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: have said it looked like the devil was in there. 76 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: And I keep hearing this term extremely violent that's associated 77 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: with this. We don't know all of the details from 78 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: the medical examiner yet. But what we do know is 79 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: that this young girl literally had her throat crushed, and 80 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: they're saying that it was by manual strangulation. Laying on 81 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: the floor in the bathroom, and you know, in a 82 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: very specific area in the house. I don't know if 83 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: there's a lot of turned over furniture signs of struggle, 84 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: but he subdued her into the bathroom where he squeezed 85 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: and literally squeezed the life out of her young body. 86 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of actually, I just handed in 87 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: my rough manuscript. It's over a hundred thousand words, and 88 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: it's titled will be titled Don't Be a Victim, Finding 89 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: Back against America's crime Wave, And I noticed Joe Scott 90 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: Morgan I was looking up advice, which seems very trite 91 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a school shooting, but that's what 92 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: that section was about. And one of the things a 93 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: lot of experts say is don't go into the bathroom. 94 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: Don't go into the bathroom because typically there's no way 95 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: out there. You're sealed off. Like don't go into a 96 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: conference room, or don't get in a spot like a 97 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: closet where there's no way out. Less you really have to, 98 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: and you're gonna think this is crazy, Joe Scott. But 99 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: especially when I was prosecuting felony crimes, I would have 100 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: dreams of running into a bathroom and being trapped and 101 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: then a whatever particular defendant would come in and in 102 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: the end of the dream, I'd be fighting from my 103 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: death or I'd look around, I'd see there was no 104 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: way out, and then turn around and there was the perp, 105 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: and you know, I'd start fighting and that would be 106 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: the end of the dream. I had that repeat dream 107 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: over and over, and now I'm remembering. I hadn't thought 108 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: about it in years, but now I'm thinking about Indira 109 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: in that bathroom and the fact that that was the 110 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: location she may have run to or he cornered her there. 111 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: But it's like one of the worst spots you can 112 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: go to, Joe Scott. Yes, it is, because there is 113 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:12,239 Speaker 1: no point of exit from these locations. It's a single entry, 114 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people I don't know 115 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: if it's if it's the media that does this. You know, 116 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: in relative to entertainment and this sort of thing, it's 117 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: always portrayed as people going into the bathroom to get 118 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: away from a potential attacker. But what always happens in 119 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: those cases people locked the door in the movies, and 120 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: even in the movies, the perpetrator comes through the door. 121 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: They banged the door and terrorize the individual. Where in 122 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: the world are you going to go? Plus, it's a 123 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: very very small place to try to combat someone that's 124 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: on the attack. Where you're learning right now about the 125 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: death of Endira is that her neck showed signs of 126 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: a violent, violent struggle. Her neck was quote traumatized. What 127 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: does that mean, Joe Scott Morgan. Well, this, you know, 128 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: in order to have what is described as a manual strangulation, Nancy, 129 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: this is very up close and personal. People can either 130 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: be sea clamped with a single hand that's wrapped around 131 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: the literally the windpipe, or they can be throttled, which 132 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: is utilizing both hands. If it's a manual strangulation until 133 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: literally the life is squeezed out of them, you're preventing 134 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: the flow of blood. First off, from the heart to 135 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: the brain. The individual becomes a noxic or they lose 136 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: oxygen to the brain. And also you've got this crushing 137 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: mechanism that happens with the tiny little muscles that run 138 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: along the sides of the neck and also the windpipe itself. 139 00:08:52,360 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A family in mourning after 140 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: police say a man confessed to killing his girlfriend last 141 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: night inside their basement apartment. That man was charged earlier 142 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: this morning at the forty sixth ver Sinc. These twelve. 143 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: The Bronx reporter Lena salve Bank is our Nelson Avenue 144 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: with the latest. Police sources say they believed twenty one 145 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: year old India Ramirez Rivera may have been strangled. Investigators 146 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: say they found the twenty one year old body inside 147 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: the basement of sixteen twenty eight Nelson Avenue around six 148 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: thirty Wednesday night after her boyfriend, twenty three year olds 149 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: angel Estevan Felice Rodriguez and Nid to the police that 150 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: he had killed Rivera. Police say he is facing charges 151 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: of murder and manslaughter, but neighbors and friends are still 152 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: left wondering why, what was the motive behind this active violence. 153 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: This is something police say they are still looking for 154 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: the answers too. They say the investigation is still ongoing. 155 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: It's amazing, stunning, sickening that this man walk s into 156 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: the police station like with fullest swagger, you know, what 157 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: I mean, ladies, fullest swagger, throws down his keys to 158 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: his department and go, yeah, yeah, I killed her. She 159 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: stayed out late, and I don't like the way she dresses. 160 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: Stays out late and didn't like the way she dresses. 161 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: I have been pouring over photos of this young girl, Indira, 162 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: and she's gorgeous, and she's always dressed like at the 163 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: height of fashion. I don't understand that you were just 164 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: hearing our friends Christie Reader telling us what we know 165 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: about the death of Endeira. Another thing we were learning 166 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: right now is Joscott Morgan, there may have been blunt 167 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: forced trauma to her head as well. Now we know 168 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: that there was strangulation, we're not sure if it was 169 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: manuel or ligature. Let me go back to that first, 170 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to bring in a renowned psychologist 171 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: joining us from Manhattan, Karen Start, and you can find 172 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: her at Karen dot com. Joe Scott. How can you 173 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: tell if it was manual or ligature strangulation and what 174 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: would the difference be as far as the killer's frame 175 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: of mind at the time. Okay, Nancy, with a literature strangulation, 176 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: what we would be looking for or what it called 177 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: literature furrows, which are these tiny little lines that are 178 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: creator on the next say that someone is using a 179 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: belt or a rope in order to strangulate someone, as 180 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: opposed to clanking their hands around the throat. If an 181 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: individual is utilizing a ligature, that means that they have 182 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: something prepped, an item in order to facilitate this. In 183 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: the mindset of a manual strangulation, this is a reactive event. 184 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: Many times just rage where they are just seemingly just 185 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: reaching out a moment breast. J Scott, are you sitting down? 186 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: I am Karen Stark. Are you sitting down? Yes? I 187 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: am Ashley's Wilcot. Are you sitting down? Yes? Ma'am Eka 188 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: are you sitting down? Yes? Okay, and Jackie Howard here 189 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: in the studio, you better lay down, Okay, I better 190 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: restrain you. Guys. I'm just getting in more information than 191 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: not only is there evidence of blunt force trauma strangulation, 192 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: but vaginal cuts. Okay, let that scene in just a moment. 193 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: Vaginal cuts cuts to her private parts. This guy, I 194 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: am telling you, this guy is the devil. I worked 195 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: for nine years at night volunteering at the Battered Women's Center. 196 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: Nine years and I would always go home and say, well, 197 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: you know, I thought i'd heard it all till tonight. 198 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: I thought i'd seen it all until tonight. Well, right 199 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: now I'm feeling well, I'm about to break down in tears, 200 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: Ashley willcot because I really feel like I've seen it all. 201 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this young girl who by the way, 202 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: and this is what I'm going to go to here 203 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: and stark On was planning to leave the boys. She 204 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: never got to. She wanted to go back and pack 205 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: her things and leave because of his jealous tirades, and 206 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: she has endured not only blunt force trauma strangulation, but 207 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: cuts to her private parts, most likely with a knife. 208 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: Ashley helped me. So here's the worst part. In the laptops, 209 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: He's gonna show this. We don't know at what point 210 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: he inflicted all those brutal, angry, angry actions to this body. 211 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: We don't know if it was before she died, after 212 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: she died. But the point is this, this is not 213 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: quote unquote just in our field a murder. This is 214 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: a brutal, brutal violation of a beautiful young lady. Karen 215 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: Stark I've been saving you, actually, Karen I hardly even 216 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: know where to start with this, but I'm going to 217 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: try to plow ahead like I would with a jury. 218 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: When they're all sitting there in the box, all twelve 219 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: of them, they're looking at you to put it all 220 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: together and make sense of everything. But right now I'm 221 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: looking at photos of her, and she's just beautiful on 222 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: the outside and apparently beautiful on the inside. Quote a 223 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: good girl according to all the neighbors and all the relatives. 224 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: Vaginal cuts, Karen. Let's just start with that rage, Nancy Wage. 225 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: I mean, if he can't have her, no one could 226 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: have her, and he's going to destroy that's part of 227 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: her that makes her a woman, so that nobody can 228 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: enter her. I mean, I know that's very graphic, but 229 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: that's the kind of rage that this man felt towards her, 230 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: so jealous that such a personal death. We've talked about 231 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: that before, where he wanted to see her die. He's 232 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: looking at her as the life is seeping out of her. 233 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: This is a man who just was waiting for her 234 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: to come back so he could do this, and unfortunately 235 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: she was quite in the kind of situation that happens 236 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: with women who are abused, where the more that someone 237 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: is attacking in and starting up with them, the less 238 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: they feel good about themselves, and the more they wind 239 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: up staying in this situation than they have troubleliving. You 240 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: hear it over and over again. To one news source, 241 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,479 Speaker 1: he says, quite, I had a physical fight with my girlfriend. 242 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: I choked her. She's dead, and you know, we talk 243 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: about it a lot, as she Willcott judge lawyer anchor. 244 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: You can find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com. We 245 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: talk about domestic homicide a lot, but unless you're in it, 246 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: you don't really get it. The other day, I was 247 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: researching something online and a woman, a young woman, had 248 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: pulled an April Fool's hoax on her boyfriend, said, and 249 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: she'd set up a I guess her cell phone or 250 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: iPad to video, and she told him that she wanted 251 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: to break up just to see what he's gonna do. 252 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: He lit into her and started beating her. She was 253 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: sitting on a sofa or a day bed or something, 254 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: and he was pounding on her, and it was very 255 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: graphic and very upsetting. And I think it's easy for 256 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: us to talk about domestic homicide and talk about battering 257 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: in the home, but when you see it, I mean 258 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: ashe I've told you the story. I remember the first 259 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: time I had a felony calendar, one hundred and fifty 260 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: brand new felonies, and I saw a woman. It was 261 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: an rayment calendar, and I saw a woman walk into 262 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: the courtroom. I flicked around and saw her and I 263 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: turned back. Then I looked back at her again. She's 264 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: on crutch as she was in a cast on one 265 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: leg from the hip down all the way down on 266 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: and behind her was her boyfriend. Well, you know what 267 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: she wanted coming to a rayment. She wasn't called as 268 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: a witness. That's just when the person who's you know, 269 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: formally read what they're charged with and they entered guilty 270 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: or not guilty. If they can't afford a lawyer, we 271 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: give them a lawyer. She came to try to get 272 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: me to drop charges, goaded by her boyfriend, who was 273 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: by the way, the defendant, and I didn't. I didn't 274 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: know what to do because I didn't have any training 275 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: in it yet. But I did not drop the charges. 276 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: And I said, look, it's not her fault. She wants 277 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: me to drop them. She's begging me to drop them, 278 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: but I'm not dropping them because you'll go back and 279 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: you'll do the same thing again. She had a broken leg, Ashley, 280 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: and I would It's over and over and over again. 281 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: It's horrible. It's horrible violence in the home. It is 282 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: and Nancy, I see it on the bench all the time. 283 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: You have parents come in front of me and one 284 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: of them is the victim of domestic violence. And people 285 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: don't understand how violent it is. Number one. Number two, 286 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: that it mentally is not something you just walk away 287 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: from it. It is a horrible abuse of a person 288 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: of another. The other piece of this is the most 289 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: dangerous time is when they finally choose to live, get 290 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: the support to actually leave the domestic violence. That's when 291 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: these crimes happen. That's what this report is. She was 292 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: going to leave them, and look what happened to her. 293 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: Polica trying to figure out what led to a woman's 294 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: death in the Bronx just a few minutes ago. Her 295 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: twenty three year old boyfriend was walked out of the 296 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: forty six Precinct station house in handcuffs. Today in New 297 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: York's Tracy Strands and Fordham Heights with the latest Tracy 298 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: Angel Felice run Riguez may have left here and handcuffs 299 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: after turning himself into authorities, but he didn't have much 300 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: to say otherwise. Angel Police Rodriguez is facing charges including 301 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: murder and manslaughter in connection to the death of his 302 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: own girlfriend, whom he shared a home with on Nelson Avenue. 303 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: That girlfriend, identified by police as twenty one year old 304 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: and Dara Ramirez Rivetta on the NYPD says she was 305 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: found unconscious and unresponsive in her basement apartment around six 306 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: thirty last night, with trauma to her neck that was 307 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: so severe. She was pronounced dead at the scene, and 308 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: we spoke to people around her neighborhood who knew her well. 309 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: Y never roll nothing. She was just a good girl, 310 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, going to work, coming home, going to work, 311 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: coming home. She was found dead around six thirty last night, 312 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: but early this morning, we watched crime scene investigators come 313 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: out of her apartment with bags of evidence. This hours 314 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: after law enforcement sources familiar with the case said Ramirez's 315 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: boyfriend turned himself in again. That twenty three year old 316 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: will now face a judge sometime today on charges of 317 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: both murder and manslaughter. The medical examiner will determine exactly 318 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: what caused that victim's death. You were hearing from our 319 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: friends at w NBC. That was Darlene Rodriguez talking about 320 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: a horrific death of a gorgeous young girl, Indira Ramirez, 321 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: the vaginal cuts. Ellen Colorin. Were getting a lot of 322 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: conflicting stories. We're getting that she was murdering in the bathroom. 323 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: We're getting that she was murdered on her bed. We're 324 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: getting that she was found in the basement. A mishmash 325 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: of that could be true. But also we were learning 326 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: that there was blunt force trauma to the head, that 327 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: there was strangulation. I'm going to circle back to you, 328 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: Joe Scott on Manuel versus literature strangulation and that she 329 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: had been cut repeatedly in her private parts. Ashley Wilcot, 330 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: judge and lawyer. What more do we know? Is it 331 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: true that she was going back to act to leave, 332 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: which typically is one of the most violent times, the 333 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: most volatile times in a relationship, except when you're pregnant. 334 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: You know, that's the number one leading cause of death 335 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: and makes pregnant women in America as homicide. But that's 336 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: another can of worms. Back to this. What more do 337 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: we know? All right? So part of the facts that 338 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: I want to bring out in this case Nancy is 339 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: that allegedly she had gone abroad to have plastic surgery 340 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: and for her look, she's beautiful. You know, I struggle 341 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: with I don't think she needs plastic surgery, but that 342 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: was her choice. She did that, and then she came back. 343 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: And so some of the facts are that he was 344 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: even more jealous because of her appearance, and that was 345 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: part of the reason he committed this crime. Very curious 346 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: to you, Karen Stark, about the mindset of her being, 347 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, really so smart and so beautiful. They're not married, 348 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: she doesn't have to stay in it. It's not like 349 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: she's daying in it for the sake of the children, 350 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: which was true in so many domestic homicide cases that 351 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: I tried, that I investigated, that I tried to help 352 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: people at the Battered Women's Center. They feel like, well, okay, 353 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: if I can just get the children through high school 354 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: or just get them through college, and then I'll leave, 355 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: And a lot of times it was too late. But 356 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: here she was not encumbered with that. But the fact 357 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: that she is and she looks so fresh faced, you know, 358 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: she looks I'm telling you like Kim Kardashian prior to surgery. 359 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm seeing the before shots. But Karen, I mean, 360 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: this woman has it all. She's young, beautiful, smart, well loved. 361 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: Why would she go back into this relationship. She's young, 362 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: she's beautiful, she's smart, and she's quite in a vicious cycle, Nancy. 363 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: And the cycle is, here's somebody who wooed her, who 364 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: loved her, supposedly, who won her over, and then he 365 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: starts to be abusive, and every time she sides, Okay, 366 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to get out of this, he becomes apologetic. 367 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, this is usually how it goes, and 368 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: he pleads with her to stay, and she gives him 369 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: another chance, and each time, her ego is getting diminished, 370 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: and she's feeling less good about herself, less worthy because 371 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: she has stayed. She can't help herself and he's made 372 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: her feel that way, and soon it becomes almost impossible 373 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: to leave. And then we have a scenario like this 374 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: where if he gets winded the fact that she actually 375 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: is strong enough and brave enough to get out of there, 376 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: he goes after her. And that's what makes it so 377 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: vicious and so telling, is that you see it all 378 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: the time, she just keeps staying and staying because she 379 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: loses the ability truly to leave you. Now, I find 380 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: it interesting and concerning. Just got more again. Forensics expert 381 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Jo Scott. 382 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: Why is there's so much conflicting reporting in the autopsy. Well, 383 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's the autopsy. It maybe police reports 384 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: it's her body that badly attack that they can't really 385 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: tell the cod cause of death. I think that probably 386 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: what we need to wait on is to have an 387 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: affirmation from the medical examiner. You've gotten multiple sources, remember 388 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: I said earlier yet an EMT making a comment publicly 389 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: where he said that it looked like the devil had 390 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: been in there. Maybe there's a few of these police 391 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: officers that have come out and made a comment as well. 392 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: So this is problematic. You get a lot of cross 393 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: talk in cases like this. Nancy. We already know that 394 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: this is an absolutely ghastly scene, So we don't know 395 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: the true facts until the medical examiner comes out and 396 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: officially tells us details about what happened to this beautiful 397 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: young woman, a woman found dead in her home. Right now, 398 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,479 Speaker 1: we understand that it was a revenge killing because she 399 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: quote stayed out that night. I want to go to 400 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, and I want to talk about the vaginal 401 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: cuts to her, to her body, strangled, blunt force trauma 402 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: to her head, vaginal cuts to her body, and almost 403 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: as if justification, he tells the cops he didn't like 404 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: the way she dressed as she stayed out all night, 405 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: like they were going to side with him. Yeah, blame 406 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: the victim. I hear this a lot, believe it or not. 407 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: In court, parties will come before me and blame the victim. 408 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: It's their fault, it's not my fault. That's exactly what 409 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: he's doing. And the vaginal cuts are direct evidence that 410 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,239 Speaker 1: he believes he was right and she was wrong and 411 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: it was her fault and she stayed out all night. 412 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: And so listen, here's what I did because of her behavior, 413 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 1: because of the way she looks. That's how messed up 414 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: that he is in his head when he committed this horrible, 415 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: horrible murder. I'm still not understanding, and I never have 416 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: understood Ashley. Why with everything going for her? And I 417 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: said this in a million speeches. Domestic homicide, domestic battery, 418 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: domestic assault, crosses all boundaries. It doesn't matter if you're 419 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: rich or if you're wealthy, if you're poor, if your 420 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: middle class. It doesn't matter if you graduated from sixth 421 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: grade or have your PhD. You know, we didn't. We 422 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: just see a female prosecutor murdered on the other side 423 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: of the country. Buy an X and there she was 424 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: with her law degree, gorgeous, young, a great degree, the work. 425 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: None of that matters, Ashley, None of it matters when 426 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: it comes down to domestic abuse. Now, anybody can be 427 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: a victim of domestic abuse, and the message to get 428 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: out there is as hard as it is, as tough 429 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: as it is. At the very first sign that someone 430 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: is abusive, reach out. That's where I'm going to encourage everybody. 431 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: Reach out, talk to someone, get out of that relationship 432 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: at the very first sign. It's not worth the risk 433 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: that you are going to be the victim. Crime stories 434 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: with Anty Grace right now, we're trying to figure out 435 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: why why And Dara went back to rutal domestic situation. 436 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: Why is she dead? Why was she killed? Three times? 437 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: Over blunt force trauma to the head, strangulation, vaginal cuts 438 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: apparently with a knife. Joining me just got Morgan forensics expert, 439 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet, renowned psychologist Karen Start 440 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: at Karen Start dot com joining us from Manhattan. Ashley 441 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: Wilcot judge lawyer anchor at Ashley Wilcott dot com. But 442 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: right now to Ellen klaurin Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Ellen, 443 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: what more can you tell me about the facts. Well, 444 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: we know that the suspect was a very, very jealous person, 445 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: and we also have heard Endara's friends say that she 446 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: was getting ready to leave him. She was thinking about 447 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: going back to that apartment, packing up her things and 448 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: getting out of there. So we don't know if maybe 449 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: that Monday that she was there that she was killed, 450 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: was the time that she was going back to get 451 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: her things. She may have been trying to get out. Yeah, 452 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: that's my understanding as well. What I don't understand, Karen Starr, 453 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: is if he's so jealous and so angry at her, 454 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: why did he want to keep Why did he want 455 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: to stay together? Why not just let her leave? Well, 456 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: because Nancy, he's so jealous and so angry because he 457 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: wants to possess her, He's not going to let her 458 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: leave because she is his. He's going to damage her 459 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: so nobody else could go near her. He's going to 460 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: keep that body. I'm not sure if he kept as 461 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: using her, but I wouldn't be surprised. I could just 462 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: picture him, because we're not talking about a normal person. 463 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: This is somebody who's so narcissistic, who says she's mine, 464 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: she can't be somebody else's, and still screaming and battering 465 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: her after she's did That's what I imagine too. Joseph Scott, 466 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: Morgan and forensics expert jo Scott. I haven't really thought 467 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: that much about necrophilia, but I had to think about 468 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: it a lot recently because of Ted Bundy. A little 469 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: known fact about Bundy. We see him. Many people think 470 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: he's charismatic and attractive. I don't, but many people do. 471 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: When I was speaking to doctor Oz about this the 472 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: other day and I said, Oz, wait a minute, Wait 473 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: a minute, let's just get it out there. Ted Bundy 474 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: would go back to the sin of the crime and 475 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: have relations with the dead body after it was decomposing it, 476 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: and would only stop doing that until animals had taken 477 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: parts of the body away. That's how long he would 478 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: go back and have relations with the body. He would 479 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: take some of the victims and bathe them, redress them, 480 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: put makeup and fix their hair. He would sever a 481 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: lot of their heads and just keep them okay. So 482 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: that's what I'm talking about by necrophilia. Joe Scott Morgan, 483 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: he kept India's body in the home for two days. 484 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: What do you think was going on and that forty 485 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: eight hour period? That's really hard to say. I don't 486 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: know if he had for me to say he was 487 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,239 Speaker 1: amusing a corpse that's what he was doing. Well, if 488 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: the possibility certainly exists, I think that when we begin 489 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: to explore the nature of these injuries, you know, we're 490 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: talking about this vaginal trauma, I'm going to be really 491 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: interested to see if there is any, if there are 492 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: any what we refer to as focal areas of him 493 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: rich in these cuts that they're talking about it, if 494 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: that's thought like a regular person, in other words, width 495 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: of accuts. Did she bleed from those cuts? Because if 496 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: she didn't bleed, indicate they were posting Mortimer after her death. Yeah, 497 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: and then we have to throw in the term torture 498 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: at that point in Tom Nancy and I hate to 499 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: bring that up as horrible as necrophilia is. You begin 500 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: to talk about torture, He was he torturing this young 501 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: girl prior to her death? And again this goes to tomline, 502 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: how long had she in fact been dead. I'm hoping 503 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: that the investigators at the scene took a real close 504 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: look at this to see if they're what the level 505 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: of changes were at the scene. And then couple days now, 506 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: now you're dumming too far down for me when you 507 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: say look for changes, I'm interpreting what you mean, Joseph 508 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan to mean how long had she been decomposing? 509 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: How long has she been lying there? And I just 510 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: want to throw another wrench in the works for us 511 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: to all mull because it was she was found face up. 512 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: In other words, if she were found on the bed, 513 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: she was face up so that she would have been 514 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: looking at the boyfriend. Now, another thing I'm curious about 515 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: jo Scott is if she was clothed or unclothed, because 516 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: if she were clothed, that means that the vaginal cutting 517 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: had taken place and then he dressed her, which is 518 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: another creepy fact to put in front of a jury 519 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: because it's true, but goes to his frame of mind. 520 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: Not well, where were you Joe Scott Morgan? Oh, I 521 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: was accusing you of dummying down too far down changes? 522 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: What changes? Well, we would be talking about changes like 523 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: the stiffness in the body rider mortis, and you mentioned 524 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: if she was faced up or not it was postmortum 525 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: lavidity or the settling of the blood. Where was it? 526 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: And this goes to another thing. You talked about these 527 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: individuals in the past that had done these things to 528 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: the deceased. Was he posing the body in anyway? Was 529 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: he manipulating her body moving around? And some of those 530 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: changes that we talked about post mortem can be misinterpreted 531 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: if an individual is in fact posing the body postmortem. 532 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: There's a lot of information that's going to come out 533 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: through the medical examiner. At this point in Tom, I 534 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: think that it's best if we wait and see what 535 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: they have to see. Well, when you say posing the body, 536 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a moment. Actually will caught. 537 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: I want to come back to you now that we 538 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: are talking about the necrophilia aspect of what happened to India. 539 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: Another thing for her family to endure to think that 540 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: she was abused postmortem after death well, I think I'm 541 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: good my opinion, as she was. And here's why I remember, Nancy, 542 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: he waited two days, two days before he reported that 543 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: he did this two days. Why do you keep a 544 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: body that you have killed in your own house and 545 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: reports are conflicting, but allegedly on the bed, face up 546 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: for two days. There's no good that's going to come 547 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: out of that. So I'm very fearful as to what 548 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: he did before killing her, but also to her body 549 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: after killing her. I mean, when you think it through, 550 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: Karen Start, I've got to come to you. You're the 551 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: shrink with me. Karen Start, renowned psychologist at Karen Start 552 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: dot com, joining us from Manhattan. Karen, what is what 553 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: does it mean to be a necrophiliac? Why the attraction 554 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: to a dead body, particularly one the body of someone 555 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: you loved or you claimed you loved Psychologically, Nancy, that 556 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: is somebody who really does get up on making love 557 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: to someone who's dead, having sex with a dead body 558 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: that turns him on. It's not as exciting to have 559 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: someone who's alive. It's the same as being turned on 560 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: by watching the life go out of someone. He enjoys this. 561 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: That's part of why he has no conscience. He goes 562 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: back to Ted Bundy story is such a good example 563 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: of that, where he's still getting excited every time he 564 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: visits the scene. He takes little tokens and when he 565 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: looked at those tokens, that gets him off. All of 566 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: these things have to do with his sexuality, which is perverted. 567 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: It's very telling. I think whether she was dressed or undressed, 568 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: because she had vaginal cuts, clearly she had to be 569 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: undressed for that. But then if she were redressed by 570 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: the time the cops found her body, and that means 571 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: that he was abusing the corpse and manipulating it in 572 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: some way, at the very very least staging. This is 573 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: what I know. I know that that jurisdiction naing it, 574 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: and that jurisdiction now she willcott. You can kill as 575 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: many people as you want to, and you're not going 576 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 1: to get the death penalty. Max. He's going to get life. 577 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, that is the way. There is no 578 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,879 Speaker 1: death penalty, So you're right, Max, he's going to get life. 579 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. To me, he needs to be 580 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: charged with each and every crime he committed murders. Not enough, 581 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: not enough, and so the autopsy will show so they 582 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: know what charges are appropriate. Whether he did these things, 583 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: the brutal, brutal cuts to the vaginal area before she died, 584 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: after she died, what he did to a deceased body, 585 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: all of these things are really important so they can 586 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: charge him with every single crime that he committed. We 587 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds for Indira Ramaz rivera Nancy Grace 588 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: crime story, signing off goodbye friend,