Speaker 1: The other day, I got a message out of the
Speaker 1: blue from an old friend, Mickey Drexler, who wanted to
Speaker 1: catch up again, so I invited him to come on
Speaker 1: my podcast. Many of you know Mickey's work well, if
Speaker 1: you shopped at Gap, Old Navy, Jay Crewe, or Madewell,
Speaker 1: you've likely purchased fashion that he's influenced. Under his leadership,
Speaker 1: he grew Gap from a four hundred million dollar company
Speaker 1: to a multi billion dollar venture and made Jay Crewe
Speaker 1: a leading retailer. And today he has a new venture.
Speaker 1: And we are sitting in our beautiful little studio right
Speaker 1: at Rockefeller Center, right across from the store called alex
Speaker 1: Mill Kismuth. And this features his signature all American style,
Speaker 1: and I'm wearing an alex Mill cardigan, which I love.
Speaker 1: Is a hard cotton.
Speaker 2: I love this and by the way, it's one of
Speaker 2: the best sellers. It is and cashmere in the winter.
Speaker 1: And the retailer speaks, Welcome to my podcast, Mickey.
Speaker 2: It's exciting to be here.
Speaker 1: Really great to see you again up close and personal.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: This is fun. And Mickey is a great raconteur. He's
Speaker 1: known for his ability to talk talk talk, talk, talk,
Speaker 1: and tell stories, and every single one of the things
Speaker 1: he says is interesting. That's what we love about Mickey
Speaker 1: Drexler so and he's also one of the most creative
Speaker 1: men persons, one of the most creative persons I have
Speaker 1: ever met, really and truly. From the minute I met you.
Speaker 2: Can I just say how we first met? Yes, you
Speaker 2: do not remember when I was kind of just married.
Speaker 2: My wife Peggy and I had a cut up, small,
Speaker 2: cut up apartment on Park Avenue. The city was going bankrupt.
Speaker 2: Guests who catered a dinner her now her apartment. It
Speaker 2: was the before she was Martha Stewart. She was there
Speaker 2: cooking and serving. It must have been nineteen seventy eight
Speaker 2: or very early on, right, and I didn't who knew?
Speaker 2: I have your contract from that dinner. I am going
Speaker 2: to look it up.
Speaker 1: Oh when I go home, I'm looking up that contract
Speaker 1: and seeing how much you paid for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I want to say you had your finger
Speaker 2: on the scale.
Speaker 1: I think it was probably about twelve dollars a person.
Speaker 1: At that time. It was a bargain.
Speaker 2: But who knows who knew?
Speaker 1: That is so funny, Mickey. Well, I was just in
Speaker 1: the store right across from our studio, as I said,
Speaker 1: Alex mill and it's named after your son, Alex.
Speaker 2: Alex started it.
Speaker 1: This is Millard Drexler, by the way, whose name, nickname
Speaker 1: is Mickey, and nobody calls him anything but Mickey. Well,
Speaker 1: what was it like to watch your son build a
Speaker 1: brand in an industry where you've devoted your entire higher
Speaker 1: career after going I mean I read about your education.
Speaker 1: I mean you went to Bronx Science and how did
Speaker 1: you get to be a garmento out of Bronx Science.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's funny being a garmento or doing
Speaker 2: what I do. First of all, I was.
Speaker 1: Just not a derogatory term, by the way, right the
Speaker 1: Calvin Klein was a garmento Ralph l from the Bronx No, no,
Speaker 1: these are the billionaires of billionaires.
Speaker 2: Let me it was there was no master plan. Every
Speaker 2: young person I meet them all they want to have
Speaker 2: a master plan at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen twenty five. And
Speaker 2: you know, I say, I connect the dots backwards. Who
Speaker 2: plans what you're going to do as you? I mean,
Speaker 2: who knew you? Never thought about it? You had the
Speaker 2: little shop in Westport. So I was very fortunate to
Speaker 2: get into science. And the reason I was fortunate is
Speaker 2: it was a whole new milieu of everyone went to
Speaker 2: college in my family on my mother's side, the Jewish family,
Speaker 2: the kibbutz in the Bronx. I was the only one.
Speaker 2: And it's still stunning. And there was no educational ethic.
Speaker 2: I get into science. I didn't want to go. I
Speaker 2: went there, hated it for four years. Where did you
Speaker 2: want to go? You know, it's a good question. I
Speaker 2: would have gone. No, I didn't know. I was just,
Speaker 2: you know, going to wherever I was.
Speaker 1: Science is one of the foremost schools, public schools in
Speaker 1: New York, and you can hard to get in there.
Speaker 1: I mean, very few kids. Well that's true, but I
Speaker 1: was like going to LaGuardia, you know, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2: So I, all of a sudden, was incredible, all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, intimidated by the students, and I was. I
Speaker 2: hated school. I had a school phobia since kindergarten. And
Speaker 2: then I'd sit next to them. There's a guy named
Speaker 2: Philip Hella right here in the next seat. Every freaking
Speaker 2: he get an a plus and a minus. And I
Speaker 2: stopped asking him, Philip, how did you do? I just
Speaker 2: wanted to get through it, which I did. I then
Speaker 2: went to City College because in my family there was
Speaker 2: no one spoke he should go here. And then I
Speaker 2: had to leave town. That's a personal story. So I
Speaker 2: went to Buffalo for my last two years.
Speaker 1: Oh he did university Buffalo. But what a nice place
Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, Buffalo was good.
Speaker 2: Well, it was good because I had to escape.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how did you find fashion from Buffalo?
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I don't know. My father worked.
Speaker 2: He didn't fit my job description of a good father.
Speaker 2: But he used to work in a shipping room in
Speaker 2: the garments center for Junior Small Young Person's coat company,
Speaker 2: and I always fantasized he was a big shot. He
Speaker 2: never was, because he acted like one. But I used
Speaker 2: to work there. He always forced me to work, not graciously,
Speaker 2: but I thank him maybe for that. And I always worked,
Speaker 2: so I was near the coats. I delivered the coats
Speaker 2: to the stores, the samples, the piece goods. And then
Speaker 2: I had got a job during the summer at Abraham
Speaker 2: and Strauss in Brooklyn, A and S which is no longer,
Speaker 2: and I worked for Ken Hirsch's, a millionaire. I remember
Speaker 2: him as a good boss. You always remember good bosses
Speaker 2: in the young men's jeens department. Not that I it
Speaker 2: was no fashion thing, but I loved the energy. I
Speaker 2: loved that I was working. I loved the fact that
Speaker 2: I made a minimum plause salary for the summer. And
Speaker 2: then I interviewed at retailers and I wrote letters to
Speaker 2: a lot of people I hate. Today, if I don't
Speaker 2: get an answer back, I'll never forget the companies I hated.
Speaker 2: I write a note, I send the resume. At least
Speaker 2: be polite enough and adswer to acknowledge. And that's how
Speaker 2: I feel. But well, the world now just say hello,
Speaker 2: even if you're a big shot. You don't need me there.
Speaker 2: Then I interviewed Bloomingdale's. Bloomingdale's then in nineteen sixty nine
Speaker 2: ers I loved it was a very hot company. Upper
Speaker 2: east Side cool, and I interviewed there. Upperside is really
Speaker 2: like sixtieth Street and then but now everything's cool. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it was then the you know, quote unquote the place.
Speaker 1: Oh, and they had such innovative merchandising, innovative.
Speaker 2: Well, it was the culture and it's always the culture.
Speaker 2: And I can have an you know, private story about
Speaker 2: that part Anyway, I loved it. My first assignment, I
Speaker 2: was very lucky. Second day I was. First day I
Speaker 2: was in the house swister, but I don't know what
Speaker 2: the hell I was doing. And I worked for a
Speaker 2: guy named Tim Morgan. Very cool guy, let's forget handsome,
Speaker 2: cool whatever. And the next day my then boss, Stanley
Speaker 2: Stern said, you're going to run the Lexington level department.
Speaker 2: The buyer barber Saint Andrew's on maternity leave. So they
Speaker 2: throw me in there and I'm for six months. I'm
Speaker 2: loving it. I'm the best selling. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of it was, well, everything's intuitive, Yeah, how did you
Speaker 2: do what you do? It's in your imagination. I was
Speaker 2: really good at it, but I didn't know it was,
Speaker 2: you know. And then that's how I got in and
Speaker 2: I there six years. I quit, made a mistake, went
Speaker 2: to Macy's for a year and a half. I quit.
Speaker 2: I quit, and I'm saying, what the hell am I
Speaker 2: going to? Then I ended up at Anne Taylor at
Speaker 2: thirty five years old as a CEO. Anyway, I worked there,
Speaker 2: but I'll tell you what I learned there. I hated
Speaker 2: the fact that when I was at Bloomingdale's Alexander's only
Speaker 2: you remember Discounter, They'd have my goods there on sale,
Speaker 2: and then I had to mark down the goods. Now
Speaker 2: people don't get it on me price, most of them,
Speaker 2: and I hated that I had no control. I didn't
Speaker 2: say this ap loud, it's internal. And when I got
Speaker 2: to Ann Taylor, Brooks Brothers then was pretty prestigious while
Speaker 2: it was in those days and Alloyed Stores owned Brooks Brothers,
Speaker 2: and I used to sit in meetings there and the
Speaker 2: light went on because Brooks Brothers owned their label and
Speaker 2: it wasn't you know, Harry Schmoey or whatever label that
Speaker 2: sells fifty stores, which happens today. And I went to
Speaker 2: our three biggest vendors who had names. Then I forgot
Speaker 2: it was whatever the names were, and I asked them
Speaker 2: with our team to do a collection of Ann Taylor's studio,
Speaker 2: because for me, if you don't control your inventory, it's
Speaker 2: not safe. You can wake up like I'd wake up.
Speaker 2: I was a swimsuit buy among other things. Alexander's had
Speaker 2: a mid June swimsuit sale every year, and I had
Speaker 2: to mark down my inventory. Is but now no one
Speaker 2: pays attention to other pricing. That's a whole other issue. Pricing.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, a whole other issue. I know all of
Speaker 1: that from from well, you know, from Macy's. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Macy's was my biggest, my biggest fashion fashion I remember
Speaker 1: that I first. Yeah, and before that, Kmart was my biggest.
Speaker 1: And that was that was the best. That was the best.
Speaker 1: That was the best business deal I ever had. Zeddy
Speaker 1: Lampert was there then, no prior. This was the old
Speaker 1: k Mart where we were selling almost two billion dollars
Speaker 1: worth of merchandise every year, Oh my god. And I
Speaker 1: was getting I was clearing sixty million dollars in royalties.
Speaker 2: Clear you deserved it. I did, created value.
Speaker 1: Did and that was the best because they had they knew,
Speaker 1: they knew how to make product. They didn't know any
Speaker 1: thing about inventory, they didn't know anything about a lot
Speaker 1: of other things in retailing. But as a major, they
Speaker 1: were the largest retailer in America at the time, and
Speaker 1: they were bigger than Walmart.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And they they made. I still have everything I made
Speaker 1: for Kmart, designed for Kmart, I still have and still
Speaker 1: use because it was so good.
Speaker 2: Keep it simple, smart, right, and don't change it. No,
Speaker 2: the way.
Speaker 1: No, everyone was perfect, and then they didn't. They had
Speaker 1: no inventory controls, they didn't know about computers, they didn't
Speaker 1: know anything about modern retailing. And Walmart came and just
Speaker 1: killed them. Well wart Walmart and then Target. Target was
Speaker 1: tiny at the time they came in, and Kmart just
Speaker 1: faded away.
Speaker 2: Do you know what's happening related to that? And if
Speaker 2: I'm talking too much, no, we love talking Related to
Speaker 2: that is today the world most retailers, no matter who,
Speaker 2: are discounters and you got to be there on the
Speaker 2: right day, on the right time. I know companies very well.
Speaker 2: They have online sales. It's full price in the shops.
Speaker 2: It's not federal customer and the best retail She doesn't
Speaker 2: like when I say this, Well I say it all
Speaker 2: the time. They say Who's who do you respect the most?
Speaker 2: TJ Max.
Speaker 1: They're my biggest They're my biggest, biggest retailer. Now, so
Speaker 1: you know Carol Myers, of course I love her best.
Speaker 1: She is the smartest and steadfast and retailer and humble, steadfast.
Speaker 1: They have an idea, they have stuck by their idea
Speaker 1: and they're not veered off. And you know, you go
Speaker 1: in and the stock has gone just inches up every
Speaker 1: year to a new high and new high and new
Speaker 1: high because they invented integrity in this county. Yes, but
Speaker 1: when you go into a TJ Max every you trust
Speaker 1: the pricing because it's not.
Speaker 2: Today, only tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Get it.
Speaker 2: Even on TV. I'm watching the news this morning. They
Speaker 2: everyone has to have a deal and a sale. The
Speaker 2: integrity of the business. Where is it?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: I said, this is a great ad this window Anderson
Speaker 2: Window tell me about why their windows are the best.
Speaker 2: And I'm saying, wow, I'm impressed. And then this week
Speaker 2: by March thirtieth, I said, they destroy the culture anyway,
Speaker 2: TJ Max. After that, the world's going their home goods store.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's amazing, so much stuff in that store
Speaker 1: because they buy a certain quantity and it's gone, and
Speaker 1: then the next quantity comes in and it's gone. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: the people wait wait for it.
Speaker 2: Well, they trust, well it's you know you, And they
Speaker 2: trust the names. They trust their brand and the price.
Speaker 1: They have many many brands in that store.
Speaker 2: It's about the history and the integrity and the style
Speaker 2: and products the most important thing in the world. But
Speaker 2: I don't know if everyone believes that.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about a little bit more about fashion
Speaker 1: and uh. And the first of all, in your newest
Speaker 1: venture with your with your son Alex Mills, who is
Speaker 1: your competition for these lovely clothes?
Speaker 2: Well, I learned about forty years ago there was a
Speaker 2: company called it was a children's little company. Lou Russe
Speaker 2: owned health text And I said to Lou, who is
Speaker 2: your competition? I'll never forget this. Anyone with a sewing machine?
Speaker 2: What an answer? Yeah, And you know everyone's a competitor,
Speaker 2: and you just have to have a point of view
Speaker 2: my case now, okay, nice product, point of view, integrity
Speaker 2: on pricing and not on sale every week. You know
Speaker 2: Macy's assistant buyers sale, then they had whatever sale and
Speaker 2: they all these.
Speaker 1: Macy's has gone from thousands of stores to a few stores. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well and there are and they're on this and they're
Speaker 1: on the chopping block every single day. Well, it's the
Speaker 1: demise of a great American brand.
Speaker 2: Yep. Well it's you know the multi brand. All the
Speaker 2: department stores and allowed it comes the multi brand. They
Speaker 2: sell all the brands. And I always say with them
Speaker 2: on let's semb see my advice before you give the
Speaker 2: credit card, go online for that product. Go online and
Speaker 2: see who's selling in our case, some people I don't
Speaker 2: know where they get it, but you know they might
Speaker 2: have a few pieces. But you know, we don't sell
Speaker 2: anyone who's going to market the brand. Okay, but everything
Speaker 2: is about the brand and this relationship to a consumer.
Speaker 1: Well, the point of view is nice. It's a kind
Speaker 1: of a casual, well made. We notice the cardigans, those
Speaker 1: pretty colored cardigans with tiny little button, many little buttons.
Speaker 1: That's a different thing.
Speaker 2: That's our best style.
Speaker 1: You just oh it is see you see, But I
Speaker 1: noticed all those buttons because no other cardigan sweater has
Speaker 1: all those buttons. They might have eight buttons at the most.
Speaker 1: This one has like twenty something button. This okay, I
Speaker 1: notice picked it so.
Speaker 2: And I picked up this beautiful Mitchell car Mitchell, Mitchell Mitchell.
Speaker 2: See we're going to change all the names. Mitchell is
Speaker 2: no one our latest pan make it, Martha, make this.
Speaker 2: I'm going to give a Martha Steward. You know I'm
Speaker 2: putting your name on the window. You said, yes, no, Martha,
Speaker 2: Martha loves Alex.
Speaker 1: I'm a tractor supply. Now I heard that business is
Speaker 1: raging good. I read about it tractor supply because the
Speaker 1: CEO left home depot and started this little farm store
Speaker 1: where he was going to offer just things that the
Speaker 1: farmer needed. And we have a lot of farmers now,
Speaker 1: even a back I'm a backyard farmer. I mean I
Speaker 1: have forever, yeah, forever. But now I have one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty acres in Bedford, and I need tractor supply
Speaker 1: because I go there for my chicken feed, I go
Speaker 1: there for tools, I go there for fencing, I go
Speaker 1: there for stuff. And so now I have a nice
Speaker 1: line of garden clothes.
Speaker 2: You know you just gave me. I do quotes all
Speaker 2: the time, going the famous for famous for well known for.
Speaker 2: Every business needs to choose and know and have customers
Speaker 2: know what they're known. So that's what Alex Mills. You
Speaker 2: need that you need that that slogan on the window.
Speaker 2: I'm going, can you be We don't have a board,
Speaker 2: but you'll.
Speaker 1: Be, okay. I'll be on your board when it when
Speaker 1: and if you need a board.
Speaker 2: We need okay. We always can learn. And that's it.
Speaker 2: And most people aren't curious enough. I get I snip
Speaker 2: out little pictures.
Speaker 1: Mickey Drexler is one of the most curious men on earth,
Speaker 1: not only evidenced by the companies that he has built
Speaker 1: and the fashions he has has promoted. But but in
Speaker 1: his homes, Oh, I still remember every one of your
Speaker 1: homes that I've seen, so beautiful. How's your garden in
Speaker 1: Bridge Hampton?
Speaker 2: Well, Bridge Hampton, Well, you'll come over. Did you sell
Speaker 2: youry Stampton?
Speaker 1: I did?
Speaker 2: I heard that, But no, I I go to Maine.
Speaker 1: I have my beautiful place in Maine, and my daughter
Speaker 1: and the grandkids love Maine. They have things to do,
Speaker 1: like mountains to climb.
Speaker 2: Well, and you're on the hill top, yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, very special. So but you had one of the
Speaker 1: most beautiful gardens in the Hampton's and it is that
Speaker 1: your wife's project or your project? Well?
Speaker 2: Guard you know we had a Terry Despine may West
Speaker 2: in Peace.
Speaker 1: Oh, I know you knew Terry. Oh he was my
Speaker 1: boyfriend Fred. Remember Terry Despine Cherry T H I E.
Speaker 2: R R. Y.
Speaker 1: He was a Frenchman from Brittany and he was one
Speaker 1: of the greatest interior designers as ever lived, and a
Speaker 1: very fine artist also. And he and I had like
Speaker 1: a fling for a year or so, and that's when
Speaker 1: he was working for you. You were his biggest client at
Speaker 1: the time, and what were your challenges when you were
Speaker 1: brought on to the Gap? Ohne eighty night.
Speaker 2: I started there. I ran Antaylor for four years and
Speaker 2: they had that awful company bias, and then I moved
Speaker 2: to say, I don't know if you ever know Rose Wells.
Speaker 2: She ran down of the retail garment. Rose was friendly
Speaker 2: with Don, the founder of Gap, and she and I
Speaker 2: were good friendship. Always was a fan, and she told
Speaker 2: in the Gap in nineteen eighty three, was either going
Speaker 2: to go this way or this way.
Speaker 1: You can't see that. It's either up or down. Oh okay,
Speaker 1: Oh this is radio. Okay, we're not on TV. We're
Speaker 1: on radio anyway.
Speaker 2: But they were famous for fall into the Gap, very tacky,
Speaker 2: horrible clothes. Yeah, everything was on sale. He started as
Speaker 2: Levi's only store. So I get there. I'm just going
Speaker 2: to give you a few tells. I get there a
Speaker 2: mess and working, you know, when you have a chairman
Speaker 2: who's but it was always avivalent. Yeah, just he was concerned.
Speaker 2: I was taking too. You have to get rid of
Speaker 2: your bad inventory. So I liquid dated most of the goods,
Speaker 2: and of course the stock and the you know, and
Speaker 2: the earnings when you liquid date your goods, it's like
Speaker 2: getting rid of stale fish. If you keep it, it
Speaker 2: ties up the cash. So I got there. I'm going
Speaker 2: to tell you so. I used to visit stores. They
Speaker 2: know more than anyone in the business. Someone on the
Speaker 2: selling floor, which in the big departments there's God forbid,
Speaker 2: and I can't speak to other smaller companies. So go
Speaker 2: to Houston Gallery in Texas. I remember this as one
Speaker 2: of those moments, and I said, what did I get
Speaker 2: myself into it? I park in the parking lot. I
Speaker 2: see flyers on all the cars today, only gap thirty
Speaker 2: percent off everything. Oh my god. No one wouldn't believe me.
Speaker 2: So I walked and Hector was the store manager. I
Speaker 2: just meant him. I said, Hector, what is this? He goes,
Speaker 2: if we having a slow day, we do a sale.
Speaker 2: That was That's the tell. Everything was cheap. Everything was
Speaker 2: on sale. And they had twenty different brand names. And
Speaker 2: you know, it's like you being Martha Stewart, Susie Schwartz,
Speaker 2: this everyone Fox Tales. They did surveys. I don't do
Speaker 2: any surveys. You know, were focus groups. My board forced
Speaker 2: me into one or two to rear view mirror. What
Speaker 2: are they doing. They're getting paid. It's probably like Nielsen,
Speaker 2: who knows. So anyway, a mess, a disaster public company.
Speaker 2: I was scared for the first year or so. Don
Speaker 2: was great at really we rid did We had four
Speaker 2: hundred stores and we redid all of them and I
Speaker 2: re merchant. Well, I threw out all the crap. Stock
Speaker 2: went fifty percent down and like, oh my god. Then
Speaker 2: we had a meeting. I'll never forget launching the New Gap,
Speaker 2: never called New Gap.
Speaker 1: But it was so fabulous. So it was it was fabulous,
Speaker 1: thank you. So.
Speaker 2: But I had a vision I had on a piece
Speaker 2: of paper when I was at Anne Taylor, if I
Speaker 2: were going to start. I really wanted to start it coming.
Speaker 2: But then people didn't get oh he has ten million,
Speaker 2: just started in fail. So I had on a piece
Speaker 2: of paper in my desk drawer what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2: So the company was told August, my birthday's August seventeen,
Speaker 2: all the goods, this is a year.
Speaker 1: Elo Leo Leo August thirty.
Speaker 2: Okay, well yeah, we'll share next. We've got to do
Speaker 2: it anyway, So middle of August, I'll never forget. We're
Speaker 2: in a meeting in Carmel, which you've been there. It's
Speaker 2: a snooze. But whatever. Anyway, in New York, when you
Speaker 2: grow up in New York, it's very different than all those.
Speaker 1: But maybe it was good that you went to California
Speaker 1: because you created in the Gap the iconic American style
Speaker 1: for everybody. That's what you did. That's what the Gap did,
Speaker 1: and you were at the Helm. Yeah, so that's a
Speaker 1: pretty amazing accomplishment.
Speaker 2: Well, I never really enjoyed that position. Even today, I run,
Speaker 2: I'm anxious.
Speaker 1: It wasn't yours.
Speaker 2: Maybe, well even now where you know Alex and I
Speaker 2: own the company with all the everyone has a piece
Speaker 2: of Ye, that's the way to do it. But I
Speaker 2: acted at Bloomingdale's like I owned it. Every day I
Speaker 2: look at my sales and my But you have to
Speaker 2: feel like that. You have to feel owners.
Speaker 1: You have to. But but you, you were, you were
Speaker 1: the creative genius behind so many of these businesses, and
Speaker 1: you you're real telling I think was finding other people
Speaker 1: who really came in do it alone, came in there
Speaker 1: and designed for you and not do it alone, advised
Speaker 1: you on the trends that were necessary. Because look, I mean,
Speaker 1: you walk down the street at those in those days,
Speaker 1: you walk down the street at least sixty percent of
Speaker 1: the people wearing gap at least And then when you started,
Speaker 1: Jay Krue, can we get to it? When? When was?
Speaker 1: When did that start?
Speaker 2: Well, you know I was fired at the Gap with
Speaker 2: one day. Notice, yeah, don't ask. Steve Jobs was on
Speaker 2: but we were on each other.
Speaker 1: He was on the board.
Speaker 2: Yes, well he made a deal with me. I didn't
Speaker 2: want to go on his board, which was not smart.
Speaker 1: For a year, stupid.
Speaker 2: Steve is the most seductive guy in the world when
Speaker 2: he won something. So a year he's doing this that,
Speaker 2: And of.
Speaker 1: All the Titans, he was my favorite. Oh, the all
Speaker 1: smartest guy in the room. Visionary and you have to
Speaker 1: see around corners with what you do and I do.
Speaker 1: We're not a trendy. We never want to be. So
Speaker 1: Steve was on the board and I had him on
Speaker 1: the board because he was like West Coast and so
Speaker 1: he did it as a face hatesport.
Speaker 2: Okay, No, he did it to get me, he said, right,
Speaker 2: he said, I said, we got a dal Steve because
Speaker 2: I knew he would be Steve Jobs with an inside board.
Speaker 2: I didn't have any someone. It was all in which
Speaker 2: most boards, you know independent directors. To me, it's all bs,
Speaker 2: get your best friends. They're all independent. So he would
Speaker 2: be Steve Jobs reverend. They could be rude, he could.
Speaker 2: I loved it. But after a year or so, he
Speaker 2: calls me at nine o'clock at night. I knew, you
Speaker 2: always know when you're gonna get fired or something. You
Speaker 2: feel that no one looks at you. And we had
Speaker 2: a bad year, so what you always have bad years
Speaker 2: or two? So Steve calls me, what shareholders care? Yeah,
Speaker 2: they care about that day, of course that day. So anyway,
Speaker 2: he calls me at nine o'clock. The board dinner's over,
Speaker 2: and he says, they just told me because they were
Speaker 2: afraid I was going to tell you that you're being
Speaker 2: fired tomorrow. They couldn't tell him, but they had to
Speaker 2: tell him at the last, of.
Speaker 1: Course, because he's a boy.
Speaker 2: So I called don come and see me at eight
Speaker 2: in the morning and I get a one page note
Speaker 2: after four hundred million to fifteen billion, no earnings to
Speaker 2: this and not a billion?
Speaker 1: And were you difficult? I think what it was? No difficult?
Speaker 1: Every time?
Speaker 2: I said once at a meeting, I said, every time
Speaker 2: I get mad, you make another billion dollars because I'm impatient.
Speaker 2: You know how it is?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean so you were considered an impatient difficult,
Speaker 1: you know, defin a guy.
Speaker 2: But difficult when people aren't doing what's right and aren't
Speaker 2: moving forward. Because I look at every style and I
Speaker 2: can have a there's a million examples I find, you know,
Speaker 2: by color. Every color is a P and L. And
Speaker 2: people will say, well it's not selling. Well, you say, well,
Speaker 2: let me see the colors. Two of them sold out,
Speaker 2: four bad colors. Change the colors DNA clues.
Speaker 1: So the Old Navy, well that became a huge success
Speaker 1: and still is.
Speaker 2: Well, that was my favorite story of all time. Oh
Speaker 2: of what I've done is it was a notion and curiosity.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you more than J Crew. Oh J Crew
Speaker 2: that was started with a base business of then it
Speaker 2: was maybe three or four hundred million, and gap. It's
Speaker 2: much easier to start and fix than to build a
Speaker 2: car or something, you know. And so Old Navy, why
Speaker 2: I was I read the New York Times a small article.
Speaker 2: Target is twenty five years ago. And I'm competitive as
Speaker 2: you are, and you have to be. You're in a
Speaker 2: race to stay number one. So they have a quote
Speaker 2: someone quote saying this is going to be a cheaper
Speaker 2: version of GAP because the GAP was the standard. Then
Speaker 2: I got on an airplane the wee could open. I
Speaker 2: flew to Mall of America and I looked, and I
Speaker 2: was there four minutes. I said, sh this ain't cheaper version.
Speaker 2: On the way home to San Francisco, I stopped in
Speaker 2: Chicago purposely to visit a couple of stores that were
Speaker 2: not in the GAP demographic. I walk in, I speak
Speaker 2: to the store managers who knows more and the team.
Speaker 2: I said, why do you have all these sale items here?
Speaker 2: I said, We're too expensive for most of our customers. Bingo.
Speaker 2: So I both stores then and I flew back to
Speaker 2: San Francisco. I don't know. I forgot how I got
Speaker 2: this statistic. We were a big Genes company, but all
Speaker 2: my jeans started thirty four point fifty and thirty dollars
Speaker 2: in below eighty percent of the market. I'm just checking
Speaker 2: the boxes I get back. I took ten people who
Speaker 2: had a demographically matched old Navy's vision and they you know, income,
Speaker 2: and I gave each of them then two hundred dollars,
Speaker 2: ten of them, ten people I knew everyone whatever I
Speaker 2: gave them each two hundred, and I say, I signed
Speaker 2: them discount stores. Walmart came on, then Mervin's calls and
Speaker 2: and I signed them categories come back. Two weeks later.
Speaker 2: We go around the room, and they care about the
Speaker 2: same thing I was always wondering about Walmart's eight ninety seven.
Speaker 2: They said they want a nice, clean store, they want
Speaker 2: nice people, they want nice merchandise. They like fashion the
Speaker 2: eight dollars. So anyway, after that meeting, I said, we're
Speaker 2: doing it now. When you say you're doing it, Don
Speaker 2: was an entrepreneur, so he really just do it whatever,
Speaker 2: and then was ready to go. Did I tell you
Speaker 2: how we got the name?
Speaker 1: Oh? Maybe you did, but I don't.
Speaker 2: Okay, here's very quickly. So when you deal with allied
Speaker 2: stores or boards and directors, they don't understand this business.
Speaker 1: Not creating money. He's talking about money. I'm talking about creativity,
Speaker 1: creativity or whatever we're doing. We're doing hand motions instead
Speaker 1: of story.
Speaker 2: So anyway, we needed a name. I recruited from a
Speaker 2: gap people who were terrific. See that's the How would
Speaker 2: you get the name old Navy? I'll tell you how.
Speaker 1: I Okay, sold Navy color No I'll tell you how
Speaker 1: we got okay, and it was icing on the cake.
Speaker 2: We needed a cool name. Madewell's name was cool. I
Speaker 2: bought the name when it was defunct for years. I
Speaker 2: loved the name and I liked since night. So anyway,
Speaker 2: we're driving to the airport, me Maggie from Paris, because
Speaker 2: you know, you go there, you good ideas. It's always
Speaker 2: a creative thing. And one Rusmaine. I'm in the back
Speaker 2: left seat cheese here, I'm just daydreaming on rousermain. I
Speaker 2: see a marquee with neon lights like a kind of
Speaker 2: you noticed it and it said Old Navy. I said, Maggie,
Speaker 2: that's the name. So I registered in America. Who was
Speaker 2: you know, trademarket.
Speaker 1: It was out of the blue. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But the board like the name four or five million
Speaker 2: dollars later in today's money name land Or. I'm going
Speaker 2: to the consultants and they give me you can't believe.
Speaker 2: So anyway, first store that opened was gap warehouse Old Navy. Hello,
Speaker 2: you know it's like anyway exactly whatever. So it took
Speaker 2: off like a rocket end. So he went from cap
Speaker 2: Old Navy to J Crew. Yeah, you know, I got fired,
Speaker 2: but I was happy to get back to how were
Speaker 2: you able to drive growth there at J Crew? Well,
Speaker 2: it's always it was.
Speaker 1: It was. That was a rocket ship too.
Speaker 2: It was. And I always admired that company as a
Speaker 2: competitor in its earlier days. I loved their catalog, by
Speaker 2: the way, the catalog at Anti Or. I took an
Speaker 2: accessory buyer, I said, start a catalog. You know, you
Speaker 2: take shots on people, because they a lot of people.
Speaker 2: It was good and so anyway, and.
Speaker 1: That was in the day of really good catalog.
Speaker 2: J Crew was basically a discounter. The online business or
Speaker 2: the catalog business in everything was a sale. Everything was
Speaker 2: on sale, and it was schlocky, and it used to
Speaker 2: be very cool. It was a great brand, and then
Speaker 2: it wasn't, you know, So I just approached it. I
Speaker 2: hired Jeff from Old Navy. I brought in Tracy Gardner
Speaker 2: from Gap. I mean, you know, the people who've been there,
Speaker 2: done it, and they've climbed the mountain. And I brought
Speaker 2: in a number of Gap people and uh, and then
Speaker 2: vision the look and my playbook is our playbook is
Speaker 2: you can't put it in a report, but you have
Speaker 2: it inside of you. You know, all this and a
Speaker 2: lot of people don't understand it so well.
Speaker 1: I wore J Crew. I mean, we fell in love
Speaker 1: with J Crew immediately when you when you took over,
Speaker 1: and I wore your denim work shirts. That was my
Speaker 1: uniform on television, and I had my daily great never
Speaker 1: go out of style. I never. I still have one
Speaker 1: whole row of denim shirts in my clothes. And I
Speaker 1: wore the casual clothes of J Crew. And they really
Speaker 1: influenced American style.
Speaker 2: Really they the most. Just this week, one of my assistants,
Speaker 2: she's looking up all the old magazine covers and the
Speaker 2: one I thought it was most proud of is the
Speaker 2: man who dressed America. That was but I never went
Speaker 2: to my head because but it's brilliant, because that's what
Speaker 2: you did.
Speaker 1: You dressed us. Yeah, you dressed us, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: anything I but you knew what we should have in
Speaker 1: our I just felt it.
Speaker 2: I felt it, and when I grew up, my friends,
Speaker 2: I still hang out with a couple of grade school
Speaker 2: friends Joey gag Gagliano retired policeman to pay carries a
Speaker 2: little gun love Joey. Anyway, three or four friends said
Speaker 2: I was I don't know why best dressed kid at
Speaker 2: PS seventy six. You know I wore the same thing my.
Speaker 1: Unif forday, right, you know she knows buckles back and
Speaker 1: so you know what the sables were then. But what
Speaker 1: essential clothing to get to the present? What are the
Speaker 1: essentials today? Well, if I if I need twelve things
Speaker 1: in my closet mickey today, Okay, what would you suggest?
Speaker 2: That's a good question. And you know we're starting today
Speaker 2: a new thing. People need to be told how to
Speaker 2: dress in America, the designer business. No comment, but simple
Speaker 2: uniform wearing everything vintage right now. You buy something in
Speaker 2: style never goes out of fashion. So you do a
Speaker 2: I'm not even gonna mention our stuff. You do a
Speaker 2: work jacket. We're famous for work jacket.
Speaker 1: It's a pin striped navy jacket. All no, this is
Speaker 1: this is but no, no, no, this is not Taylor.
Speaker 1: That's fancy tailored. It's fine. I know what it is, okay,
Speaker 1: but but this is a this is a man's it's
Speaker 1: like a it's like a business suit, pin striped navy
Speaker 1: blue business suit, very fancy. But it looks really great
Speaker 1: with jeans.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: I mean that's the casual way to dress. And a
Speaker 1: white shirt, a white button down men's shirt and button down.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you have the year from Brooks brother. What
Speaker 1: is it?
Speaker 2: It's Ascott changh Okay, I wear I have lots of
Speaker 2: Ascot Chang.
Speaker 1: I've had a maid in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2: Me too. And if you advertise expensive clothes, it's cheap. Sure,
Speaker 2: this is a eleven years old. This is fancy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a beautiful, beautiful end and it's I
Speaker 1: have I have an act. You should come and look
Speaker 1: at my attic some day I will. Oh boy, I
Speaker 1: have so many fabulous clothes, you.
Speaker 2: Know, vintage.
Speaker 1: And I go back in there. I go back in there.
Speaker 1: It takes shop your closet every well. And then he
Speaker 1: has the navy blue T shirt on under that. Yeah
Speaker 1: it's silk. A beautiful silk scarf, a Paisley silk scar
Speaker 1: from Michael Drake thirty years old. Okay, that's nice. And
Speaker 1: then six things I need. You need a great casual
Speaker 1: pant like we have the neo pantka. You need, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just a jeans. You need dress pants you don't
Speaker 1: need in today's world. Well, you're wearing jeans, right. These
Speaker 1: are sort of a gene. It's sort of yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's a knit kind of geene. It's beautiful fabric.
Speaker 2: You need white. Well, see, I will only wear button
Speaker 2: down shirts. I always have the arguments at work. They
Speaker 2: do spread colors. I said, do a white do a
Speaker 2: pocket tea? We just did. These are all fundamental. What
Speaker 2: else do you need you need from us work? Jacket
Speaker 2: and woman's want to love your jackets at alex Mill.
Speaker 2: Then they're so beautiful, well, and you have to own them.
Speaker 2: And I'm always explaining color color is the art, and
Speaker 2: you know, it's everything that's visual. You walk into a store,
Speaker 2: what's the first thing you see?
Speaker 1: Color? Color?
Speaker 2: Not in the fancy schmancies, but I call them fancy schmancies.
Speaker 2: But whatever, and what else do you need? You need
Speaker 2: the sweater? Were you wearing the Jordan's sweater or someone.
Speaker 1: You know it looked like that.
Speaker 2: It looks like you're wearing the Jordan's sweat Men's and exactly.
Speaker 2: And then you need well, if you want gloves, we
Speaker 2: have a leather lined gloves here like here, If you
Speaker 2: want a cashmere hat, very famous for and we're expanding
Speaker 2: all these and what else woven shirts? You need a
Speaker 2: white shirt. You need stripes, blue and white stripes. You
Speaker 2: have beautiful striped shirts. Blue and white stripes. We do
Speaker 2: too many. Half this business is in the obvious blue
Speaker 2: and white stripes. And I brought in my stripes one
Speaker 2: day from ascot Chang. Over fifteen years everything was a
Speaker 2: version of a blue and white. It's the go to.
Speaker 1: So what do you think about stores like Zara?
Speaker 2: That Zara, they rip phenomenal.
Speaker 1: They rip off every high fashion in the nicest possible way.
Speaker 2: Phenomenal. They do great stuff. Yeah, and I don't like
Speaker 2: to say nice things about Competitives.
Speaker 1: That's a Spanish company by the way, and it's centered
Speaker 1: in in Madrid, and they are incredible. They're so fashion.
Speaker 1: There's fashion forward, but they're also immediate. They pick up
Speaker 1: on styles immediately, up in there fast and really good,
Speaker 1: really good. And what other brands inspire you or catch
Speaker 1: your eye these days?
Speaker 2: Well, anything that's old to me catches my eye because
Speaker 2: it's lasted, it's perennial, it's whatever the prices you're going
Speaker 2: to have it in fifteen years. That's why all these clothes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean they look absolutely brand new and modern.
Speaker 1: And you and you're dressed in vintage.
Speaker 2: Almost, but vintage today is so hot because it's original,
Speaker 2: it's it's made better than a lot of clothes today.
Speaker 2: I agree, cheaper I have, I have.
Speaker 1: I never throw my clothes away, so I have several
Speaker 1: rooms full of clothes, and I keep saying I have
Speaker 1: to get rid of this stuff, you know. But you know,
Speaker 1: I have a granddaughter coming up. She's my size and old,
Speaker 1: fourteen and she's taller than I am. She can wear
Speaker 1: some and I love it when she comes and takes something.
Speaker 2: It's a treasure trove.
Speaker 1: It is.
Speaker 2: My daughter shops from me now because you know, oversized.
Speaker 2: Well she's bigger than me, but she shops my closet,
Speaker 2: but mostly her own. Yeah, and she dresses style, never
Speaker 2: goes out of fashion. Yeah, Peggy, the same thing, And
Speaker 2: it wasn't trained.
Speaker 1: I have stuff I bought like Aermez from twenty twenty
Speaker 1: five years ago and I still wear it. It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: Oh look it's an air Mez jacket you have on.
Speaker 1: Wasn't that your favorite for tailoring?
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, eventually I used to get others and I
Speaker 2: this is fifteen when I used to wear suits and jackets.
Speaker 2: But this is an odd jacket. But you know again,
Speaker 2: I'm not from the man of Born, but I do
Speaker 2: divide by twenty years.
Speaker 1: So what do you think your legacy is at present
Speaker 1: and what do you hope it will be in the future.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what is the best compliment I get,
Speaker 2: And it has to do with the way I grew up.
Speaker 2: Big shots even today are big shots. It's not everyone
Speaker 2: my legacy. I always used two words words and sometimes
Speaker 2: a third a mensh, hamisha and every person is important
Speaker 2: to me. And you know they everyone thinks because oh,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to bothery said this is what I do.
Speaker 2: You're not bothering because my calendar is never filled up
Speaker 2: with meetings upon meetings, that's it. He also happened to
Speaker 2: create whatever. But the person is a lot more important. Well,
Speaker 2: if you're successful, then hamisher and a mensch. And there's
Speaker 2: no one who I look down at. In fact, today
Speaker 2: everyone has that plan of their life. I interviewed to
Speaker 2: not interviewed at favor twenty six year old. You want advice,
Speaker 2: she worked for consultings, she worked and fine and she
Speaker 2: loves fashion whatever that means. And I said, you can't
Speaker 2: learn about our business in any class. I like parsons
Speaker 2: because people do discern how to learn how to design.
Speaker 2: But that's what I like. I like people who say
Speaker 2: you know they I want them to know. I'm from
Speaker 2: the Bronx born and that's where my values are from. No,
Speaker 2: you learn, and you have to make mistakes because you
Speaker 2: have this history of learning from every mistake.
Speaker 1: Well, to talk to a legend of American fashion has
Speaker 1: been just amazing. I'm sure our audience is laughing and
Speaker 1: smiling and listening to every single word. Mickey Drexler, Well,
Speaker 1: I thank you and thank you for you just said
Speaker 1: you have time, but I'm so glad you gave me
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: I have as much my calendar as a FMKA because
Speaker 2: what's more important not big meetings of the conversation, right, Yeah, conversation.
Speaker 1: And that's what I like about the podcast world is
Speaker 1: conversation and getting getting into getting into subjects that you
Speaker 1: don't normally hear.
Speaker 2: Wait, please tell your friends about Alex Smith. I will. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
Speaker 1: To thellion million, Now, how many stories do you have?
Speaker 2: We only have three?
Speaker 1: One one in Rockefeller Center in the one right across
Speaker 1: from the ice skating rink.
Speaker 2: And across from Martha's studio, one in Soho in one
Speaker 2: on Madison in eighty seventh. Okay, they're small and I
Speaker 2: don't have investors, but that's a whole other time.
Speaker 1: Madison in eighty seventh, and we're the other.
Speaker 2: One so on seventy seven Mercers Store.
Speaker 1: Okay, seventy seven Mercer Street. You are such a such
Speaker 1: a good talker, and such a good entrepreneur, and such
Speaker 1: an amazing fashion fashion icon, your.
Speaker 2: Stee But I never I never think I can't you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: see this is a little pressure. I'll forget it, but
Speaker 2: you are.
Speaker 1: Look.
Speaker 2: I admire you. As I said, Hard documentary is as
Speaker 2: a masterclass in what it takes to be success.
Speaker 1: Thank you,