WEBVTT - "I Survived the Unsurvivable" 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:34.836 Pushkin. I know how to act in a way. I 0:00:34.956 --> 0:00:37.476 know to grow up, and I know how to make 0:00:37.556 --> 0:00:42.356 myself small so these individuals won't think of me as 0:00:42.556 --> 0:00:45.636 an a knowing little kid, and so that they would 0:00:45.636 --> 0:00:49.076 love me and take care of me, like, oh my god, 0:00:49.236 --> 0:00:52.716 please please love me, and please like me, and please 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:55.836 take care of me, because if you don't, then I 0:00:55.876 --> 0:00:58.716 don't know what I'm going to have to do. That's 0:00:58.796 --> 0:01:02.116 Javier Zamora, who at age nine, left his childhood home 0:01:02.116 --> 0:01:05.396 and I'll Salvador to reunite with his parents in the US. 0:01:06.316 --> 0:01:09.356 Javier is describing his approach to winning over the other 0:01:09.356 --> 0:01:13.036 immigrants who were also on this dangerous three thousand mile 0:01:13.156 --> 0:01:16.676 journey to the US border. It's been more than twenty 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:20.676 years since that experience, and Javier has finally decided to 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:25.516 revisit his childhood in a memoir called Salito. In reflecting 0:01:25.516 --> 0:01:28.316 on his past, Javier realized he needed to update his 0:01:28.396 --> 0:01:33.156 understanding of his nine year old self. In looking at 0:01:33.196 --> 0:01:37.316 this kid, I also realized that I was treating him 0:01:37.396 --> 0:01:43.036 how the politicians and the news outlets treat immigrants. He 0:01:43.076 --> 0:01:47.996 had committed a crime. He is somebody that doesn't belong 0:01:48.116 --> 0:01:54.276 into society. He is an outsider, and slowly I was like, no, 0:01:54.596 --> 0:01:58.876 hold up, this kid is a g He's a gangster. 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:04.916 He really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I 0:02:04.956 --> 0:02:13.716 heard that term survivor be attached to himmigrants. On today's show, 0:02:13.916 --> 0:02:23.796 Javier Zamora looks back on his harrowing immigration journey. I'm 0:02:23.836 --> 0:02:26.516 maya shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:28.956 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:29.196 --> 0:02:39.396 in the face of a big change. In his memoir, 0:02:39.556 --> 0:02:42.556 Javier writes from the perspective of his nine year old self. 0:02:43.276 --> 0:02:46.116 For our conversation today, I was eager to hear how 0:02:46.156 --> 0:02:49.756 thirty two year old Javier reflects back on his experiences 0:02:49.836 --> 0:02:53.236 as a young child. In particular, I was curious about 0:02:53.276 --> 0:02:56.876 his relationship with loneliness and how it ebbed and flowed 0:02:56.956 --> 0:03:00.276 as he made his way to the US. But first 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:02.996 I asked Javier to share a summary of his immigration 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:06.396 story to help us better understand what made his journey 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:11.916 so treacherous and his survival extraordinary. I was born in 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:14.596 a small fishing village, and I sat by load in 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:17.956 nineteen ninety in the middle of a civil war, and 0:03:18.356 --> 0:03:22.276 my dad fled that war in nineteen ninety one when 0:03:22.316 --> 0:03:24.756 I was still one years old, and my mom left 0:03:24.836 --> 0:03:26.956 when I was five in nineteen ninety five, and they 0:03:27.036 --> 0:03:30.036 left me at the care of my grandparents and my aunts. 0:03:31.156 --> 0:03:34.796 And at first my parents promised that they were going 0:03:34.876 --> 0:03:38.316 to come back, but then around the time when I 0:03:38.356 --> 0:03:42.876 turned seven, I started hearing the word trip a lot, 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:45.676 and it became clear that I would be trying to 0:03:45.716 --> 0:03:48.196 get to the US as well in order to be 0:03:48.236 --> 0:03:53.556 reunited with them, And so they decided to use the 0:03:53.636 --> 0:03:56.796 same coyote to help my mom get to the United 0:03:56.836 --> 0:04:00.916 States in nineteen ninety five. And the coyote is like 0:04:01.036 --> 0:04:05.156 a smuggler, and he was with my mom every single 0:04:05.196 --> 0:04:07.996 step of the way, and her trip was relatively safe 0:04:08.116 --> 0:04:11.316 and fast. It took two weeks. So at age nine, 0:04:11.836 --> 0:04:14.516 I leave my hometown with my grandpa to go and 0:04:14.636 --> 0:04:17.636 meet the coyote who has six other people that is 0:04:17.676 --> 0:04:21.676 also bringing along with me, and we make it safely 0:04:21.716 --> 0:04:24.796 from or to a town in Guatemala where we stay 0:04:24.836 --> 0:04:27.596 for two weeks. After the two weeks, my grandpa has 0:04:27.636 --> 0:04:32.436 to leave, and so now truly for the first time 0:04:32.676 --> 0:04:38.116 alone or solito, and from that bordertown. We got to 0:04:38.156 --> 0:04:41.636 another bordertown in Guatemala on the coast, and we get 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:46.316 on a boat and we take a twenty two hour 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:52.236 boat ride to somewhere and the Mexican coastline. Fast forward. 0:04:52.316 --> 0:04:56.196 From there, we take multiple bus ride warehouses that we're 0:04:56.236 --> 0:04:58.836 locked in. There are bribes, and we get pulled out 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:04.036 of buses by Mexican immigration cops. After five weeks, we 0:05:04.076 --> 0:05:06.716 make it to the US Mexican border, so that's an 0:05:06.836 --> 0:05:10.516 Oran desert, and it is there that we make three 0:05:10.556 --> 0:05:13.956 attempts to make it across the border. And during these attempts, 0:05:13.996 --> 0:05:17.476 I get apprehended by border patrol agents twice, we get 0:05:17.556 --> 0:05:21.916 chased by helicopters twice. I'm in a detention cell and 0:05:22.076 --> 0:05:26.876 I literally almost died during each of my attempts, and 0:05:26.916 --> 0:05:31.476 I have guns pointed at me multiple times. And it's 0:05:31.556 --> 0:05:35.356 not until weeks later that I make it across the 0:05:35.436 --> 0:05:41.756 border successfully and I'm finally reunited with my parents. Thank 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:45.316 you for sharing that, so, Javier, I would love to 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:49.076 start off by talking about your experience as a five 0:05:49.156 --> 0:05:53.356 year old in El Salvador. Your mom fled to the US, 0:05:53.556 --> 0:05:56.676 as you mentioned, at this very formative time in your development, 0:05:56.796 --> 0:05:59.956 and she left you under the care of your grandparents 0:05:59.996 --> 0:06:03.236 and your aunts. And I'm curious to know what this 0:06:03.276 --> 0:06:08.876 transition was like for you, what impact it had on you. Well, 0:06:09.516 --> 0:06:13.396 you know, one of my first memories is my third birthday. 0:06:14.156 --> 0:06:20.596 And in my third birthday, I remember being this loud, 0:06:20.716 --> 0:06:25.956 very extroverted child, and I think it was because of 0:06:25.996 --> 0:06:31.596 my mom. My mom made sure that I would be 0:06:31.756 --> 0:06:35.356 the kid the volunteers for everything at school. She would 0:06:35.356 --> 0:06:37.676 take me with her every time. That in the morning 0:06:37.716 --> 0:06:40.316 where she went to them at gallo or the local market, 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:43.516 and in the afternoons, and there was this popular song. 0:06:44.476 --> 0:06:47.836 There was this dance called sasas Apple, and everybody in 0:06:47.876 --> 0:06:50.516 town when I was two and three would ask me. 0:06:50.636 --> 0:06:53.996 All the vendors would ask me to dance and that, 0:06:54.276 --> 0:06:58.716 and that carried over into preschool and kindergarting, and so 0:06:58.956 --> 0:07:02.796 for every Mother's Day and Father's Day celebration, every assembly, 0:07:03.196 --> 0:07:06.916 I would be the kid who performs in front of people. Yea, 0:07:07.436 --> 0:07:10.556 And so I was very ex reverted and everybody knew me. 0:07:10.756 --> 0:07:15.316 I knew everybody. And then she leaves when I'm five, 0:07:15.956 --> 0:07:19.996 in the middle of first grade, and from then on, 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:24.516 I'm no longer on this stage. I never volunteer for 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:30.116 a talent show again, and I'm very quiet, and I 0:07:30.276 --> 0:07:34.476 rarely raised my hand to answer a question, and so 0:07:34.596 --> 0:07:41.556 my personality truly changed. And she also leaves during a 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:44.956 very formative year for me that she was potty training me, 0:07:46.196 --> 0:07:51.636 and she leaves in the middle of it. I never 0:07:51.836 --> 0:07:58.116 graduate onto the adults toilet. It's like something that I 0:07:58.156 --> 0:08:01.636 refused to learn. And I think I refused to learn 0:08:02.036 --> 0:08:05.196 not because I wasn't intelligent, but because I think it 0:08:05.796 --> 0:08:09.996 reminded me of my mom. Do you think that also 0:08:10.076 --> 0:08:14.196 explains the shift from extroversion to introversion, because what I'm 0:08:14.236 --> 0:08:18.556 hearing you say is that being extroverted was inextricably linked 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:21.676 to your mom. She was the one who brought you 0:08:21.716 --> 0:08:23.276 to the markets, she was the one who made sure 0:08:23.276 --> 0:08:26.796 you were volunteering. And so in part, do you feel 0:08:26.836 --> 0:08:30.236 like you retreated from that way of being because it 0:08:30.316 --> 0:08:34.076 was too sad to be reminded of those memories? Absolutely? 0:08:34.436 --> 0:08:37.836 Why just flashed in my mind was my mom. She 0:08:37.836 --> 0:08:41.996 would choreograph these dances as I would like sing along 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:44.756 or pretend to sing along. It was lip singing, but 0:08:44.876 --> 0:08:48.036 she would teach me. We would make a cost him together, 0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:51.316 and then she would teach me a dance and so 0:08:51.356 --> 0:08:54.996 all those things. Yes, you're absolutely correct. It was too 0:08:55.076 --> 0:08:57.436 hurtful to do the things that I would do with 0:08:57.476 --> 0:09:00.756 my mom because it would mean that I would acknowledge 0:09:00.916 --> 0:09:02.996 that she was no longer next to me and that 0:09:03.036 --> 0:09:08.316 she was no longer with me. Wow. Okay. When you 0:09:08.396 --> 0:09:11.396 left for your trip to the US, and of course 0:09:11.436 --> 0:09:13.756 it's uncertain how long this trip will be and what 0:09:13.796 --> 0:09:17.196 it will look like. As you mentioned, your grandfather traveled 0:09:17.196 --> 0:09:19.356 with you as far as he could go before he 0:09:19.436 --> 0:09:22.716 had to return to El Salvador, and then you were 0:09:23.116 --> 0:09:26.156 truly left alone with a group of strangers who would 0:09:26.156 --> 0:09:28.636 be accompanying you on the rest of your journey. And 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:33.316 this group included a woman named Patricia and her daughter Carla, 0:09:33.436 --> 0:09:36.796 and also a man named Chino in your nine Javier, 0:09:36.996 --> 0:09:40.476 So I want to know how did you respond to 0:09:40.636 --> 0:09:45.196 suddenly being in a group of just strangers. I think, 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:50.476 going back to when I was five, I learned to 0:09:51.916 --> 0:09:55.436 grow up, I learned to be an adult. Like my 0:09:55.516 --> 0:09:57.756 dad was gone, I never missed them because he was 0:09:57.796 --> 0:10:00.556 never there to begin with. Who I did miss was 0:10:00.596 --> 0:10:05.316 my mom, and once she left, part of me becoming 0:10:05.396 --> 0:10:12.396 introverted also got coupled with trying to behave and be 0:10:12.556 --> 0:10:16.916 a good kid so the adults around me wouldn't leave 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:21.876 me ever again. And as a little kid, I remember 0:10:22.476 --> 0:10:27.756 always trying to do my best to fold my clothes, 0:10:27.836 --> 0:10:31.356 to wash the dishes, to eat everything on the plate, 0:10:31.916 --> 0:10:35.876 just so I wouldn't disappoint them. And so my training 0:10:36.316 --> 0:10:39.476 for this trip didn't start weeks before. I think it 0:10:39.596 --> 0:10:42.516 started the moment that my mom left, because I'd behaved 0:10:42.556 --> 0:10:46.276 so well that I didn't want to bother my grandma 0:10:46.356 --> 0:10:51.556 and my aunts, who are my dominant caretakers. And acting 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:56.996 like this helped me once my grandpa was gone, but 0:10:57.356 --> 0:11:02.756 he leaves me with these strangers. I know how to 0:11:04.316 --> 0:11:07.116 act in a way, I know to grow up, and 0:11:07.196 --> 0:11:11.716 I know how to make myself all so these individuals 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:15.556 will won't think of me as an a knowing little kid, 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:18.556 and so that they would love me and take care 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:22.076 of me. And so it was like, oh my God, 0:11:22.196 --> 0:11:25.596 please please love me and please like me, and please 0:11:25.636 --> 0:11:28.716 take care of me, because if you don't, then I 0:11:28.756 --> 0:11:31.196 don't know what I'm going to have to do. Yeah, 0:11:31.236 --> 0:11:34.836 And that was the constant every day life for me. 0:11:34.956 --> 0:11:39.196 On this trip. I want to unpack the conclusion you 0:11:39.316 --> 0:11:42.156 drew as a five year old about how you needed 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:44.756 to be in order for people to stay with you 0:11:44.836 --> 0:11:46.916 to not leave you, which was, I have to be 0:11:46.956 --> 0:11:49.596 this good kid. I can't misbehave, I cannot do anything bad. 0:11:50.036 --> 0:11:53.236 I need to be an adult. Did you feel that 0:11:53.276 --> 0:11:56.436 your mom had left you because you were not a 0:11:56.476 --> 0:11:58.796 sufficiently good kid? I mean, how had it ever been 0:11:58.836 --> 0:12:06.916 explained to you why she was leaving. Well, I'm just 0:12:07.036 --> 0:12:11.356 beginning to unpack that now. Wow, okay, but yes, the 0:12:11.436 --> 0:12:17.636 short answer is yes, I internalized her leaving and I 0:12:18.716 --> 0:12:22.356 made it my fault. As a little kid, I thought 0:12:22.396 --> 0:12:26.676 that I had done something wrong for her to leave. 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:30.276 And then I heard about this other individual, my dad, 0:12:30.316 --> 0:12:33.436 who I only talk to on the phone, and as 0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:38.716 a little kid, i like kids do, my whole world 0:12:38.916 --> 0:12:42.276 was just me and the people around me. And so 0:12:42.836 --> 0:12:46.556 all these people must see something in me that I 0:12:46.596 --> 0:12:49.956 don't see, and I am the reason why they keep leaving. 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:55.236 And that just saying that out loud has taken me years. 0:12:55.876 --> 0:13:01.276 And so this is like a self almost hatred that 0:13:02.196 --> 0:13:05.236 was planted in me from that age, caused by my 0:13:05.316 --> 0:13:09.316 mom's departure. Because why why are these people leaving? Why 0:13:09.396 --> 0:13:11.236 is the person that's supposed to take care of me 0:13:11.316 --> 0:13:14.636 and love me, my mother? Why is she gone? As 0:13:14.636 --> 0:13:19.516 a little kid, I have no context for a war, poverty, 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:23.716 all these push factors, the violence that was increasing, so 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:26.716 at no context for that. The only context that I 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:31.756 have is my mother's love. I see. So let's return 0:13:32.036 --> 0:13:35.636 to your trip, Javier. You're alone with this group of strangers, 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:39.356 and you're being extremely careful to be as well behaved 0:13:39.356 --> 0:13:41.836 as possible. But some of the men in the group, 0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:44.396 they decide to play a joke on you, and this 0:13:44.436 --> 0:13:48.436 results in a turning point in your journey emotionally. And 0:13:48.516 --> 0:13:51.316 it begins when the men send you on a fool's 0:13:51.396 --> 0:13:54.956 errand they tell you to fetch pattered gasoline from a 0:13:54.996 --> 0:13:58.316 nearby store, which is not actually an item that exists, 0:13:58.636 --> 0:14:02.076 and a local shopkeeper ends up laughing in your face 0:14:02.276 --> 0:14:06.156 when you make this request, and you're very embarrassed. I'm 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:08.756 wondering if you can tell us what happens next. So 0:14:10.156 --> 0:14:14.036 this was the fourth shop that I enter in this 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:18.556 small coastal village, and nobody everybody just pretended went along 0:14:18.596 --> 0:14:25.436 with it until this shop owner and her laughter just 0:14:26.436 --> 0:14:31.556 felt like an arrow right at my heart and my 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:36.476 head because on top of being this well behaved kid, 0:14:37.436 --> 0:14:40.876 I tried to be liked by being really good at school, 0:14:41.236 --> 0:14:44.316 and I prided myself in being the most intelligent. I 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:47.596 was the valedictorian. I want first place every single year, 0:14:48.196 --> 0:14:53.036 and so here was the valedictorian of this Salvadoran town 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:59.996 in fourth grade being tricked by the adults. So it 0:15:00.196 --> 0:15:04.316 reduced my ego. And this is like three days into 0:15:04.396 --> 0:15:08.636 being truly by myself. And I didn't allow myself to 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:12.076 cry because that's what little annoying kids do. I'm not 0:15:12.116 --> 0:15:15.556 a little annoying kid, an adult, and if I cry, 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:17.716 people are not gonna like me. So it just broke 0:15:17.796 --> 0:15:20.996 me down and I just started crying. And I run 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:25.396 back to my room that I share with Patricia, the 0:15:25.436 --> 0:15:27.796 mom and her daughter, and I tell her what happened. 0:15:28.316 --> 0:15:34.156 And Patricia, being Patricia, a small, self adorned woman who 0:15:34.596 --> 0:15:38.156 is a fighter, she just grabs me by my hand 0:15:38.316 --> 0:15:40.636 and takes me to the men who are still smoking. 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:45.276 They always they were constantly smoking, and she screams at 0:15:45.316 --> 0:15:48.996 them and tells them why did you do this? Like 0:15:49.236 --> 0:15:53.476 why are you picking on this kid? Like you know, 0:15:54.036 --> 0:15:56.676 and they're like, oh, no, no, it's a joke. Calm down, 0:15:56.796 --> 0:16:02.076 calm down. And eventually, after she stopped screaming and they apologize, 0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:05.796 she makes them apologize to me, and then they asked 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:08.036 me to stay behind and she looks at me and 0:16:08.076 --> 0:16:09.756 I'm like, it's okay. And then she goes back to 0:16:09.796 --> 0:16:13.756 the room and it is there with the men that 0:16:13.836 --> 0:16:16.036 they explained to me that it's the writer of passage, 0:16:16.076 --> 0:16:19.436 that somebody has done it to them, and they tell me, oh, 0:16:19.556 --> 0:16:22.756 you're a grown up. Now, you're an adult. And as 0:16:22.796 --> 0:16:27.436 they're saying this, they offer me a cigarette and it 0:16:27.556 --> 0:16:29.556 is the first time that I have a cigarette, and 0:16:29.596 --> 0:16:34.076 I just start coughing. And so all of that being 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:38.516 lied to being broken down, Patricia helping me and standing 0:16:38.596 --> 0:16:42.756 up for me, and then being inducted into the man's club. 0:16:43.356 --> 0:16:48.356 What that situation did for me is it weirdly made 0:16:48.396 --> 0:16:51.356 me more comfortable around the man and it made me 0:16:51.436 --> 0:16:54.876 closer to them, and it made me feel that I 0:16:54.956 --> 0:16:59.796 was actually an adult and that I could undertake anything 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:03.156 that was going to happen on this trip because I 0:17:03.236 --> 0:17:07.036 wasn't a normal nine year old kid. How did Patricia 0:17:07.116 --> 0:17:09.676 coming to your defense change your relationship with her and 0:17:09.716 --> 0:17:13.396 how you saw her and how you saw yourself, because 0:17:14.036 --> 0:17:16.556 you know she is a mom. She's a mom in 0:17:16.556 --> 0:17:22.116 your environment. When she stood up for me, I knew 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:25.396 that she liked me. I wouldn't go as far as 0:17:25.396 --> 0:17:27.556 saying that she loved me, but I knew that she 0:17:27.676 --> 0:17:31.596 liked me more than any of the other strangers. And 0:17:32.116 --> 0:17:34.636 what that did for me is that I began to 0:17:34.676 --> 0:17:38.716 trust her more and more, and I knew that I 0:17:38.716 --> 0:17:41.236 could count on her. I knew that when we were 0:17:41.276 --> 0:17:45.236 walking in town that I could walk next to her. 0:17:45.876 --> 0:17:48.396 I didn't have to walk by myself or behind everybody, 0:17:48.556 --> 0:17:51.596 or walk next to the coyote, but I walk next 0:17:51.636 --> 0:17:57.316 to her, And internally, I think that I began to 0:17:58.396 --> 0:18:01.436 see her as a mom. And it's weird that she 0:18:01.516 --> 0:18:05.036 had the exact same name as my mom, Patricia as 0:18:05.076 --> 0:18:10.916 my real mom, and her temperament was very similar to 0:18:10.956 --> 0:18:15.996 my mom's as well, And I think in hindsight, those 0:18:16.036 --> 0:18:22.836 two things subconsciously made me gravitate towards her. Yeah, and 0:18:23.476 --> 0:18:27.196 I slowly also won her over, and she won me 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:31.756 over as well. You said you noticed that you were 0:18:31.796 --> 0:18:35.476 starting to trust her, which is a very big deal. 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:38.676 In the life of young Javier and your constant fear 0:18:38.676 --> 0:18:42.996 of abandonment, I think speaks to that. Did this episode 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:46.716 with Patricia and that growing trust lead you to come 0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:49.636 out of your shell a bit more and maybe tap 0:18:49.676 --> 0:18:52.076 into some of the extra version you had shown as 0:18:52.076 --> 0:18:55.236 a young child, but had hit away because it was 0:18:55.276 --> 0:19:01.276 just too painful a little bit. I don't think I 0:19:01.356 --> 0:19:06.436 allowed myself to go back to the extra version. It 0:19:06.596 --> 0:19:10.476 was too risky. It was too risky. The closest I 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:15.236 came to that was induced by Patricia tell me about that. 0:19:15.876 --> 0:19:19.876 We're in another room and she starts farting in front 0:19:19.876 --> 0:19:23.076 of me, and then I'm like, oh my god, and 0:19:23.156 --> 0:19:25.316 adult farted in front of me. That takes a lot 0:19:25.356 --> 0:19:27.876 of trust. And that is something that I never did 0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:29.996 with my mom, but something that I had done with 0:19:30.036 --> 0:19:33.116 my aunt, and it took us years to get to 0:19:33.196 --> 0:19:36.836 that trust level. And here is this stranger, Patricia, who 0:19:36.836 --> 0:19:39.236 I'm getting closer in culture with us the days go on. 0:19:39.756 --> 0:19:43.356 She just lets it rip and then I let it 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:47.436 rip and we have this beautiful, stinky moment. And that 0:19:47.476 --> 0:19:51.716 takes trust. Yeah, And so that is the epitome of 0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:56.796 my extraversion. But that's it. I'm still very afraid that 0:19:57.116 --> 0:20:00.636 if I act out, even she will leave, because my 0:20:00.756 --> 0:20:07.876 mom has left, you know, so anybody kills you, we'll 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:10.356 be back in a moment. The slight change of plans. 0:20:21.716 --> 0:20:23.756 From what I read in your memoir, it seems like 0:20:24.596 --> 0:20:26.916 the trust between you and others in your group really 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:29.276 did ebb and flow over the course of your nine 0:20:29.316 --> 0:20:31.716 week journey. You know, you would take a few steps forward, 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:34.596 then many steps back, and then more steps forward and 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:37.236 many steps back. Do you remember any defining moments in 0:20:37.276 --> 0:20:40.636 which you became more trusting of the people in your group, 0:20:41.196 --> 0:20:43.676 Any other stories or scenes you can paint for us. 0:20:44.676 --> 0:20:47.596 So I think the cigarette scene was when I learned 0:20:47.596 --> 0:20:51.956 to trust Patricia, when I learned to trust the person 0:20:51.996 --> 0:20:54.756 that I trusted the second most, or at times the most, 0:20:55.076 --> 0:20:59.276 became this individual named Chino, the man. All they did 0:20:59.716 --> 0:21:04.956 was chain smoke and drink and watch TV. And Cino 0:21:05.516 --> 0:21:08.996 was the youngest of the three. Chino was around nineteen 0:21:09.476 --> 0:21:14.036 or twenty, and I learned that he liked me, and 0:21:14.116 --> 0:21:16.556 I learned that I could trust him. On this boat, 0:21:16.756 --> 0:21:19.876 so we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and 0:21:20.036 --> 0:21:23.676 it's completely dark, and it's already night. We got on 0:21:23.716 --> 0:21:26.836 the boat at dawn around five am, and this must 0:21:26.836 --> 0:21:31.316 have been around like ten pm eleven pm. And it's very, 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:35.196 very cold, and all I have is this little thin 0:21:35.356 --> 0:21:41.036 jacket and I'm shivering, and Patricia has a jacket, and 0:21:41.676 --> 0:21:44.116 her daughter also has a thin jacket, but she puts 0:21:44.156 --> 0:21:47.556 her daughter inside, and then she also try to put 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:50.236 me on top of her daughter. All three of us 0:21:50.316 --> 0:21:53.596 hurdled together and it's not working. The zippers not sipping up, 0:21:53.636 --> 0:21:56.116 so the wind is still coming at me, and it 0:21:56.356 --> 0:21:59.916 feels like I'm in like the Arctic ocean. And Chino 0:22:00.596 --> 0:22:04.796 is sitting across from us and he sees this, and 0:22:04.996 --> 0:22:08.796 everybody is seeing this woman struggle, but nobody offers to help, 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:11.796 not even the older man in the group. But Gino 0:22:12.276 --> 0:22:13.876 is like, hey, how ye do you want to come 0:22:13.916 --> 0:22:16.356 over here? Like I can cover you with his jacket 0:22:16.756 --> 0:22:21.356 with his jacket, and I kind of look up at Patricia, 0:22:21.436 --> 0:22:24.036 who I trust. We have this bond now, and she 0:22:24.196 --> 0:22:28.036 gives me the okay, and I'm like okay, and I 0:22:28.156 --> 0:22:32.476 walk across the boat. Gino opens his jacket and I 0:22:32.596 --> 0:22:36.196 put my arms where his arms go and its leaves 0:22:36.876 --> 0:22:39.236 and he SIPs it up and he's just hugging me 0:22:39.396 --> 0:22:42.436 and trying to warm me up because we're both extremely cold. 0:22:43.196 --> 0:22:47.396 And from then on I learned that he cares. But 0:22:47.756 --> 0:22:50.876 again our relationship that has some flows. I knew that 0:22:50.916 --> 0:22:53.756 he changed when he was only with the adults. He 0:22:53.836 --> 0:22:57.316 was probably trying to be a man or trying to 0:22:57.396 --> 0:23:01.396 impress these older men. So in him trying to impress 0:23:01.476 --> 0:23:05.116 the man, he forgot about me, and he wouldn't really 0:23:05.156 --> 0:23:07.716 talk to me. He would be different. So when he 0:23:07.756 --> 0:23:09.996 tried to embody this more manly role, it came at 0:23:09.996 --> 0:23:14.116 the extense of a trusting relationship with you. Yeah, and 0:23:14.316 --> 0:23:17.396 I don't know, in a very patriarchal my chief the way, 0:23:17.396 --> 0:23:19.196 like a man is not supposed to take care of 0:23:19.276 --> 0:23:23.836 a little kid, and yet this young man was. And 0:23:23.916 --> 0:23:26.116 the older men would tease him too, They were like, oh, 0:23:26.156 --> 0:23:29.196 why are you this kid's mom? And that is, like 0:23:29.316 --> 0:23:32.036 I guess, not a thing that men should do. And 0:23:32.116 --> 0:23:36.796 yet Chino China would and did. There's also this moment 0:23:36.876 --> 0:23:40.116 when you are both in a detention center where Chino 0:23:40.196 --> 0:23:44.756 really steps up as this surrogate father figure and helps 0:23:44.756 --> 0:23:50.156 you use the restroom. You know, using the bathroom on 0:23:50.196 --> 0:23:53.796 this trip was the biggest fear that I had my 0:23:53.876 --> 0:23:56.396 grandpa in what the malan those two weeks. He took 0:23:56.396 --> 0:24:00.476 it upon himself to really teach me to trust that 0:24:00.556 --> 0:24:02.716 I wasn't going to get flushed out into the ocean 0:24:02.916 --> 0:24:04.916 if I flushed the toilet, So you were worried it 0:24:04.956 --> 0:24:07.676 would suck you in. Yeah, that was a complete fear. 0:24:07.756 --> 0:24:09.556 And I didn't know how to swim, so I was like, 0:24:09.596 --> 0:24:11.596 if I'm flushed down the toilet and I'm in the ocean, 0:24:11.636 --> 0:24:15.516 I'm gonna die. And then once my grandpa leaves, I 0:24:15.556 --> 0:24:21.436 could do that privately. But peeing in warehouses and eventually 0:24:22.036 --> 0:24:26.156 peeing in a detention cell in front of all these 0:24:26.196 --> 0:24:32.956 other adult men with adult size penises became this fearful thing. 0:24:33.196 --> 0:24:36.676 And I learned to like keep my pee inside as 0:24:36.716 --> 0:24:40.796 long as possible. And I was in attention for forty 0:24:40.796 --> 0:24:43.716 eight hours, so at one point I had to pee. Yeah, 0:24:44.196 --> 0:24:48.196 And it is Cino who steps up. He pretty much 0:24:48.236 --> 0:24:53.796 becomes the curtain so all the other people won't see 0:24:53.836 --> 0:24:58.276 me pe and he does this repeatedly. I think it's 0:24:59.316 --> 0:25:02.716 it's telling that it's that it's him, the pseudo father 0:25:02.996 --> 0:25:08.196 who's really taken care of me. There's this very stirring 0:25:08.236 --> 0:25:10.836 moment that you just drive in your book, in which, 0:25:11.076 --> 0:25:14.396 after these three attempts, you successfully make it across the 0:25:14.516 --> 0:25:18.876 US Mexico border, and there's this feeling where trust is 0:25:18.916 --> 0:25:22.836 at an all time high. There's such unbridled joy and 0:25:22.956 --> 0:25:27.756 happiness actually finally making it to your destination. But then 0:25:28.156 --> 0:25:31.916 it's accompanied by a massive heartbreak because you realize that 0:25:31.996 --> 0:25:35.396 all these people you've grown close to over the last 0:25:35.436 --> 0:25:37.796 nine weeks are going to be living on the opposite 0:25:37.796 --> 0:25:41.276 side of the US from you. And as you're forced 0:25:41.316 --> 0:25:44.796 to say goodbye to Patricia, Carla, and Chino, you realize 0:25:44.836 --> 0:25:47.996 for the first time just how much your relationship has 0:25:48.036 --> 0:25:52.716 shifted with them over the last nine weeks. The moment 0:25:53.276 --> 0:25:56.156 that I have to say goodbye to them, you know 0:25:56.196 --> 0:25:59.996 we have already made it. We're somewhere in a warehousing Tucson, 0:26:00.436 --> 0:26:03.716 and we are not alone. The four of us are 0:26:03.836 --> 0:26:07.316 part of this group of thirty immigrants who have just 0:26:07.396 --> 0:26:12.036 successfully crossed the border. And not only that, more and 0:26:12.236 --> 0:26:14.996 more vans keep coming. So at one point, this two 0:26:14.996 --> 0:26:18.116 bedroom apartment in Tucson is filled with I want to say, 0:26:18.156 --> 0:26:23.756 over a hundred people, and it smells bad. And in 0:26:23.996 --> 0:26:30.316 this whole commotion of people coming and going, we Padresiacchino 0:26:30.356 --> 0:26:33.876 and Kardilla have to say goodbye, and it didn't click 0:26:34.316 --> 0:26:38.276 to me or in my brain that we Like. I 0:26:38.356 --> 0:26:42.076 knew that the US was big geographically. I thought that 0:26:42.156 --> 0:26:44.716 we were gonna at least be like an hour away 0:26:44.756 --> 0:26:48.436 from each other. But they're in DC and I'm going 0:26:48.836 --> 0:26:52.916