1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:34,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I know how to act in a way. I 2 00:00:34,956 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: know to grow up, and I know how to make 3 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:42,356 Speaker 1: myself small so these individuals won't think of me as 4 00:00:42,556 --> 00:00:45,636 Speaker 1: an a knowing little kid, and so that they would 5 00:00:45,636 --> 00:00:49,076 Speaker 1: love me and take care of me, like, oh my god, 6 00:00:49,236 --> 00:00:52,716 Speaker 1: please please love me, and please like me, and please 7 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:55,836 Speaker 1: take care of me, because if you don't, then I 8 00:00:55,876 --> 00:00:58,716 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm going to have to do. That's 9 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:02,116 Speaker 1: Javier Zamora, who at age nine, left his childhood home 10 00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: and I'll Salvador to reunite with his parents in the US. 11 00:01:06,316 --> 00:01:09,356 Speaker 1: Javier is describing his approach to winning over the other 12 00:01:09,356 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 1: immigrants who were also on this dangerous three thousand mile 13 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: journey to the US border. It's been more than twenty 14 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: years since that experience, and Javier has finally decided to 15 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:25,516 Speaker 1: revisit his childhood in a memoir called Salito. In reflecting 16 00:01:25,516 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 1: on his past, Javier realized he needed to update his 17 00:01:28,396 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 1: understanding of his nine year old self. In looking at 18 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:37,316 Speaker 1: this kid, I also realized that I was treating him 19 00:01:37,396 --> 00:01:43,036 Speaker 1: how the politicians and the news outlets treat immigrants. He 20 00:01:43,076 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 1: had committed a crime. He is somebody that doesn't belong 21 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 1: into society. He is an outsider, and slowly I was like, no, 22 00:01:54,596 --> 00:01:58,876 Speaker 1: hold up, this kid is a g He's a gangster. 23 00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:04,916 Speaker 1: He really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I 24 00:02:04,956 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 1: heard that term survivor be attached to himmigrants. On today's show, 25 00:02:13,916 --> 00:02:23,796 Speaker 1: Javier Zamora looks back on his harrowing immigration journey. I'm 26 00:02:23,836 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: maya shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 27 00:02:26,756 --> 00:02:28,956 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 28 00:02:29,196 --> 00:02:39,396 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. In his memoir, 29 00:02:39,556 --> 00:02:42,556 Speaker 1: Javier writes from the perspective of his nine year old self. 30 00:02:43,276 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: For our conversation today, I was eager to hear how 31 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: thirty two year old Javier reflects back on his experiences 32 00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 1: as a young child. In particular, I was curious about 33 00:02:53,276 --> 00:02:56,876 Speaker 1: his relationship with loneliness and how it ebbed and flowed 34 00:02:56,956 --> 00:03:00,276 Speaker 1: as he made his way to the US. But first 35 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:02,996 Speaker 1: I asked Javier to share a summary of his immigration 36 00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:06,396 Speaker 1: story to help us better understand what made his journey 37 00:03:06,476 --> 00:03:11,916 Speaker 1: so treacherous and his survival extraordinary. I was born in 38 00:03:11,956 --> 00:03:14,596 Speaker 1: a small fishing village, and I sat by load in 39 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:17,956 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety in the middle of a civil war, and 40 00:03:18,356 --> 00:03:22,276 Speaker 1: my dad fled that war in nineteen ninety one when 41 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 1: I was still one years old, and my mom left 42 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 1: when I was five in nineteen ninety five, and they 43 00:03:27,036 --> 00:03:30,036 Speaker 1: left me at the care of my grandparents and my aunts. 44 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 1: And at first my parents promised that they were going 45 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: to come back, but then around the time when I 46 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:42,876 Speaker 1: turned seven, I started hearing the word trip a lot, 47 00:03:43,316 --> 00:03:45,676 Speaker 1: and it became clear that I would be trying to 48 00:03:45,716 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 1: get to the US as well in order to be 49 00:03:48,236 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: reunited with them, And so they decided to use the 50 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: same coyote to help my mom get to the United 51 00:03:56,836 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: States in nineteen ninety five. And the coyote is like 52 00:04:01,036 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 1: a smuggler, and he was with my mom every single 53 00:04:05,196 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 1: step of the way, and her trip was relatively safe 54 00:04:08,116 --> 00:04:11,316 Speaker 1: and fast. It took two weeks. So at age nine, 55 00:04:11,836 --> 00:04:14,516 Speaker 1: I leave my hometown with my grandpa to go and 56 00:04:14,636 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 1: meet the coyote who has six other people that is 57 00:04:17,676 --> 00:04:21,676 Speaker 1: also bringing along with me, and we make it safely 58 00:04:21,716 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 1: from or to a town in Guatemala where we stay 59 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:27,596 Speaker 1: for two weeks. After the two weeks, my grandpa has 60 00:04:27,636 --> 00:04:32,436 Speaker 1: to leave, and so now truly for the first time 61 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:38,116 Speaker 1: alone or solito, and from that bordertown. We got to 62 00:04:38,156 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: another bordertown in Guatemala on the coast, and we get 63 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:46,316 Speaker 1: on a boat and we take a twenty two hour 64 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:52,236 Speaker 1: boat ride to somewhere and the Mexican coastline. Fast forward. 65 00:04:52,316 --> 00:04:56,196 Speaker 1: From there, we take multiple bus ride warehouses that we're 66 00:04:56,236 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: locked in. There are bribes, and we get pulled out 67 00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:04,036 Speaker 1: of buses by Mexican immigration cops. After five weeks, we 68 00:05:04,076 --> 00:05:06,716 Speaker 1: make it to the US Mexican border, so that's an 69 00:05:06,836 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 1: Oran desert, and it is there that we make three 70 00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 1: attempts to make it across the border. And during these attempts, 71 00:05:13,996 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 1: I get apprehended by border patrol agents twice, we get 72 00:05:17,556 --> 00:05:21,916 Speaker 1: chased by helicopters twice. I'm in a detention cell and 73 00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 1: I literally almost died during each of my attempts, and 74 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:31,476 Speaker 1: I have guns pointed at me multiple times. And it's 75 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:35,356 Speaker 1: not until weeks later that I make it across the 76 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: border successfully and I'm finally reunited with my parents. Thank 77 00:05:41,796 --> 00:05:45,316 Speaker 1: you for sharing that, so, Javier, I would love to 78 00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 1: start off by talking about your experience as a five 79 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:53,356 Speaker 1: year old in El Salvador. Your mom fled to the US, 80 00:05:53,556 --> 00:05:56,676 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, at this very formative time in your development, 81 00:05:56,796 --> 00:05:59,956 Speaker 1: and she left you under the care of your grandparents 82 00:05:59,996 --> 00:06:03,236 Speaker 1: and your aunts. And I'm curious to know what this 83 00:06:03,276 --> 00:06:08,876 Speaker 1: transition was like for you, what impact it had on you. Well, 84 00:06:09,516 --> 00:06:13,396 Speaker 1: you know, one of my first memories is my third birthday. 85 00:06:14,156 --> 00:06:20,596 Speaker 1: And in my third birthday, I remember being this loud, 86 00:06:20,716 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 1: very extroverted child, and I think it was because of 87 00:06:25,996 --> 00:06:31,596 Speaker 1: my mom. My mom made sure that I would be 88 00:06:31,756 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 1: the kid the volunteers for everything at school. She would 89 00:06:35,356 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 1: take me with her every time. That in the morning 90 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: where she went to them at gallo or the local market, 91 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:43,516 Speaker 1: and in the afternoons, and there was this popular song. 92 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:47,836 Speaker 1: There was this dance called sasas Apple, and everybody in 93 00:06:47,876 --> 00:06:50,516 Speaker 1: town when I was two and three would ask me. 94 00:06:50,636 --> 00:06:53,996 Speaker 1: All the vendors would ask me to dance and that, 95 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: and that carried over into preschool and kindergarting, and so 96 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:02,796 Speaker 1: for every Mother's Day and Father's Day celebration, every assembly, 97 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:06,916 Speaker 1: I would be the kid who performs in front of people. Yea, 98 00:07:07,436 --> 00:07:10,556 Speaker 1: And so I was very ex reverted and everybody knew me. 99 00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:15,316 Speaker 1: I knew everybody. And then she leaves when I'm five, 100 00:07:15,956 --> 00:07:19,996 Speaker 1: in the middle of first grade, and from then on, 101 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 1: I'm no longer on this stage. I never volunteer for 102 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: a talent show again, and I'm very quiet, and I 103 00:07:30,276 --> 00:07:34,476 Speaker 1: rarely raised my hand to answer a question, and so 104 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:41,556 Speaker 1: my personality truly changed. And she also leaves during a 105 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:44,956 Speaker 1: very formative year for me that she was potty training me, 106 00:07:46,196 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 1: and she leaves in the middle of it. I never 107 00:07:51,836 --> 00:07:58,116 Speaker 1: graduate onto the adults toilet. It's like something that I 108 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:01,636 Speaker 1: refused to learn. And I think I refused to learn 109 00:08:02,036 --> 00:08:05,196 Speaker 1: not because I wasn't intelligent, but because I think it 110 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:09,996 Speaker 1: reminded me of my mom. Do you think that also 111 00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: explains the shift from extroversion to introversion, because what I'm 112 00:08:14,236 --> 00:08:18,556 Speaker 1: hearing you say is that being extroverted was inextricably linked 113 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 1: to your mom. She was the one who brought you 114 00:08:21,716 --> 00:08:23,276 Speaker 1: to the markets, she was the one who made sure 115 00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:26,796 Speaker 1: you were volunteering. And so in part, do you feel 116 00:08:26,836 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 1: like you retreated from that way of being because it 117 00:08:30,316 --> 00:08:34,076 Speaker 1: was too sad to be reminded of those memories? Absolutely? 118 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,836 Speaker 1: Why just flashed in my mind was my mom. She 119 00:08:37,836 --> 00:08:41,996 Speaker 1: would choreograph these dances as I would like sing along 120 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:44,756 Speaker 1: or pretend to sing along. It was lip singing, but 121 00:08:44,876 --> 00:08:48,036 Speaker 1: she would teach me. We would make a cost him together, 122 00:08:48,396 --> 00:08:51,316 Speaker 1: and then she would teach me a dance and so 123 00:08:51,356 --> 00:08:54,996 Speaker 1: all those things. Yes, you're absolutely correct. It was too 124 00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:57,436 Speaker 1: hurtful to do the things that I would do with 125 00:08:57,476 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 1: my mom because it would mean that I would acknowledge 126 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 1: that she was no longer next to me and that 127 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 1: she was no longer with me. Wow. Okay. When you 128 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:11,396 Speaker 1: left for your trip to the US, and of course 129 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 1: it's uncertain how long this trip will be and what 130 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:17,196 Speaker 1: it will look like. As you mentioned, your grandfather traveled 131 00:09:17,196 --> 00:09:19,356 Speaker 1: with you as far as he could go before he 132 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:22,716 Speaker 1: had to return to El Salvador, and then you were 133 00:09:23,116 --> 00:09:26,156 Speaker 1: truly left alone with a group of strangers who would 134 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 1: be accompanying you on the rest of your journey. And 135 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:33,316 Speaker 1: this group included a woman named Patricia and her daughter Carla, 136 00:09:33,436 --> 00:09:36,796 Speaker 1: and also a man named Chino in your nine Javier, 137 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 1: So I want to know how did you respond to 138 00:09:40,636 --> 00:09:45,196 Speaker 1: suddenly being in a group of just strangers. I think, 139 00:09:46,076 --> 00:09:50,476 Speaker 1: going back to when I was five, I learned to 140 00:09:51,916 --> 00:09:55,436 Speaker 1: grow up, I learned to be an adult. Like my 141 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 1: dad was gone, I never missed them because he was 142 00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 1: never there to begin with. Who I did miss was 143 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 1: my mom, and once she left, part of me becoming 144 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 1: introverted also got coupled with trying to behave and be 145 00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 1: a good kid so the adults around me wouldn't leave 146 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 1: me ever again. And as a little kid, I remember 147 00:10:22,476 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 1: always trying to do my best to fold my clothes, 148 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 1: to wash the dishes, to eat everything on the plate, 149 00:10:31,916 --> 00:10:35,876 Speaker 1: just so I wouldn't disappoint them. And so my training 150 00:10:36,316 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 1: for this trip didn't start weeks before. I think it 151 00:10:39,596 --> 00:10:42,516 Speaker 1: started the moment that my mom left, because I'd behaved 152 00:10:42,556 --> 00:10:46,276 Speaker 1: so well that I didn't want to bother my grandma 153 00:10:46,356 --> 00:10:51,556 Speaker 1: and my aunts, who are my dominant caretakers. And acting 154 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 1: like this helped me once my grandpa was gone, but 155 00:10:57,356 --> 00:11:02,756 Speaker 1: he leaves me with these strangers. I know how to 156 00:11:04,316 --> 00:11:07,116 Speaker 1: act in a way, I know to grow up, and 157 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:11,716 Speaker 1: I know how to make myself all so these individuals 158 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 1: will won't think of me as an a knowing little kid, 159 00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 1: and so that they would love me and take care 160 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:22,076 Speaker 1: of me. And so it was like, oh my God, 161 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:25,596 Speaker 1: please please love me and please like me, and please 162 00:11:25,636 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 1: take care of me, because if you don't, then I 163 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm going to have to do. Yeah, 164 00:11:31,236 --> 00:11:34,836 Speaker 1: And that was the constant every day life for me. 165 00:11:34,956 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: On this trip. I want to unpack the conclusion you 166 00:11:39,316 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 1: drew as a five year old about how you needed 167 00:11:42,236 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: to be in order for people to stay with you 168 00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:46,916 Speaker 1: to not leave you, which was, I have to be 169 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 1: this good kid. I can't misbehave, I cannot do anything bad. 170 00:11:50,036 --> 00:11:53,236 Speaker 1: I need to be an adult. Did you feel that 171 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:56,436 Speaker 1: your mom had left you because you were not a 172 00:11:56,476 --> 00:11:58,796 Speaker 1: sufficiently good kid? I mean, how had it ever been 173 00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 1: explained to you why she was leaving. Well, I'm just 174 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:11,356 Speaker 1: beginning to unpack that now. Wow, okay, but yes, the 175 00:12:11,436 --> 00:12:17,636 Speaker 1: short answer is yes, I internalized her leaving and I 176 00:12:18,716 --> 00:12:22,356 Speaker 1: made it my fault. As a little kid, I thought 177 00:12:22,396 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 1: that I had done something wrong for her to leave. 178 00:12:27,556 --> 00:12:30,276 Speaker 1: And then I heard about this other individual, my dad, 179 00:12:30,316 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 1: who I only talk to on the phone, and as 180 00:12:33,436 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: a little kid, i like kids do, my whole world 181 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:42,276 Speaker 1: was just me and the people around me. And so 182 00:12:42,836 --> 00:12:46,556 Speaker 1: all these people must see something in me that I 183 00:12:46,596 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: don't see, and I am the reason why they keep leaving. 184 00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 1: And that just saying that out loud has taken me years. 185 00:12:55,876 --> 00:13:01,276 Speaker 1: And so this is like a self almost hatred that 186 00:13:02,196 --> 00:13:05,236 Speaker 1: was planted in me from that age, caused by my 187 00:13:05,316 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 1: mom's departure. Because why why are these people leaving? Why 188 00:13:09,396 --> 00:13:11,236 Speaker 1: is the person that's supposed to take care of me 189 00:13:11,316 --> 00:13:14,636 Speaker 1: and love me, my mother? Why is she gone? As 190 00:13:14,636 --> 00:13:19,516 Speaker 1: a little kid, I have no context for a war, poverty, 191 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:23,716 Speaker 1: all these push factors, the violence that was increasing, so 192 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: at no context for that. The only context that I 193 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: have is my mother's love. I see. So let's return 194 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 1: to your trip, Javier. You're alone with this group of strangers, 195 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:39,356 Speaker 1: and you're being extremely careful to be as well behaved 196 00:13:39,356 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 1: as possible. But some of the men in the group, 197 00:13:41,996 --> 00:13:44,396 Speaker 1: they decide to play a joke on you, and this 198 00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:48,436 Speaker 1: results in a turning point in your journey emotionally. And 199 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 1: it begins when the men send you on a fool's 200 00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 1: errand they tell you to fetch pattered gasoline from a 201 00:13:54,996 --> 00:13:58,316 Speaker 1: nearby store, which is not actually an item that exists, 202 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:02,076 Speaker 1: and a local shopkeeper ends up laughing in your face 203 00:14:02,276 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 1: when you make this request, and you're very embarrassed. I'm 204 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 1: wondering if you can tell us what happens next. So 205 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:14,036 Speaker 1: this was the fourth shop that I enter in this 206 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:18,556 Speaker 1: small coastal village, and nobody everybody just pretended went along 207 00:14:18,596 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: with it until this shop owner and her laughter just 208 00:14:26,436 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 1: felt like an arrow right at my heart and my 209 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 1: head because on top of being this well behaved kid, 210 00:14:37,436 --> 00:14:40,876 Speaker 1: I tried to be liked by being really good at school, 211 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 1: and I prided myself in being the most intelligent. I 212 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:47,596 Speaker 1: was the valedictorian. I want first place every single year, 213 00:14:48,196 --> 00:14:53,036 Speaker 1: and so here was the valedictorian of this Salvadoran town 214 00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:59,996 Speaker 1: in fourth grade being tricked by the adults. So it 215 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:04,316 Speaker 1: reduced my ego. And this is like three days into 216 00:15:04,396 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 1: being truly by myself. And I didn't allow myself to 217 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:12,076 Speaker 1: cry because that's what little annoying kids do. I'm not 218 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 1: a little annoying kid, an adult, and if I cry, 219 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 1: people are not gonna like me. So it just broke 220 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:20,996 Speaker 1: me down and I just started crying. And I run 221 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:25,396 Speaker 1: back to my room that I share with Patricia, the 222 00:15:25,436 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 1: mom and her daughter, and I tell her what happened. 223 00:15:28,316 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 1: And Patricia, being Patricia, a small, self adorned woman who 224 00:15:34,596 --> 00:15:38,156 Speaker 1: is a fighter, she just grabs me by my hand 225 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:40,636 Speaker 1: and takes me to the men who are still smoking. 226 00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:45,276 Speaker 1: They always they were constantly smoking, and she screams at 227 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:48,996 Speaker 1: them and tells them why did you do this? Like 228 00:15:49,236 --> 00:15:53,476 Speaker 1: why are you picking on this kid? Like you know, 229 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, no, no, it's a joke. Calm down, 230 00:15:56,796 --> 00:16:02,076 Speaker 1: calm down. And eventually, after she stopped screaming and they apologize, 231 00:16:02,116 --> 00:16:05,796 Speaker 1: she makes them apologize to me, and then they asked 232 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,036 Speaker 1: me to stay behind and she looks at me and 233 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:09,756 Speaker 1: I'm like, it's okay. And then she goes back to 234 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:13,756 Speaker 1: the room and it is there with the men that 235 00:16:13,836 --> 00:16:16,036 Speaker 1: they explained to me that it's the writer of passage, 236 00:16:16,076 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 1: that somebody has done it to them, and they tell me, oh, 237 00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:22,756 Speaker 1: you're a grown up. Now, you're an adult. And as 238 00:16:22,796 --> 00:16:27,436 Speaker 1: they're saying this, they offer me a cigarette and it 239 00:16:27,556 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 1: is the first time that I have a cigarette, and 240 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 1: I just start coughing. And so all of that being 241 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:38,516 Speaker 1: lied to being broken down, Patricia helping me and standing 242 00:16:38,596 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 1: up for me, and then being inducted into the man's club. 243 00:16:43,356 --> 00:16:48,356 Speaker 1: What that situation did for me is it weirdly made 244 00:16:48,396 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: me more comfortable around the man and it made me 245 00:16:51,436 --> 00:16:54,876 Speaker 1: closer to them, and it made me feel that I 246 00:16:54,956 --> 00:16:59,796 Speaker 1: was actually an adult and that I could undertake anything 247 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:03,156 Speaker 1: that was going to happen on this trip because I 248 00:17:03,236 --> 00:17:07,036 Speaker 1: wasn't a normal nine year old kid. How did Patricia 249 00:17:07,116 --> 00:17:09,676 Speaker 1: coming to your defense change your relationship with her and 250 00:17:09,716 --> 00:17:13,396 Speaker 1: how you saw her and how you saw yourself, because 251 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 1: you know she is a mom. She's a mom in 252 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:22,116 Speaker 1: your environment. When she stood up for me, I knew 253 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:25,396 Speaker 1: that she liked me. I wouldn't go as far as 254 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 1: saying that she loved me, but I knew that she 255 00:17:27,676 --> 00:17:31,596 Speaker 1: liked me more than any of the other strangers. And 256 00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:34,636 Speaker 1: what that did for me is that I began to 257 00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:38,716 Speaker 1: trust her more and more, and I knew that I 258 00:17:38,716 --> 00:17:41,236 Speaker 1: could count on her. I knew that when we were 259 00:17:41,276 --> 00:17:45,236 Speaker 1: walking in town that I could walk next to her. 260 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:48,396 Speaker 1: I didn't have to walk by myself or behind everybody, 261 00:17:48,556 --> 00:17:51,596 Speaker 1: or walk next to the coyote, but I walk next 262 00:17:51,636 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 1: to her, And internally, I think that I began to 263 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:01,436 Speaker 1: see her as a mom. And it's weird that she 264 00:18:01,516 --> 00:18:05,036 Speaker 1: had the exact same name as my mom, Patricia as 265 00:18:05,076 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 1: my real mom, and her temperament was very similar to 266 00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:15,996 Speaker 1: my mom's as well, And I think in hindsight, those 267 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:22,836 Speaker 1: two things subconsciously made me gravitate towards her. Yeah, and 268 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:27,196 Speaker 1: I slowly also won her over, and she won me 269 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:31,756 Speaker 1: over as well. You said you noticed that you were 270 00:18:31,796 --> 00:18:35,476 Speaker 1: starting to trust her, which is a very big deal. 271 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:38,676 Speaker 1: In the life of young Javier and your constant fear 272 00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 1: of abandonment, I think speaks to that. Did this episode 273 00:18:43,116 --> 00:18:46,716 Speaker 1: with Patricia and that growing trust lead you to come 274 00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 1: out of your shell a bit more and maybe tap 275 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:52,076 Speaker 1: into some of the extra version you had shown as 276 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:55,236 Speaker 1: a young child, but had hit away because it was 277 00:18:55,276 --> 00:19:01,276 Speaker 1: just too painful a little bit. I don't think I 278 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: allowed myself to go back to the extra version. It 279 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 1: was too risky. It was too risky. The closest I 280 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: came to that was induced by Patricia tell me about that. 281 00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 1: We're in another room and she starts farting in front 282 00:19:19,876 --> 00:19:23,076 Speaker 1: of me, and then I'm like, oh my god, and 283 00:19:23,156 --> 00:19:25,316 Speaker 1: adult farted in front of me. That takes a lot 284 00:19:25,356 --> 00:19:27,876 Speaker 1: of trust. And that is something that I never did 285 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 1: with my mom, but something that I had done with 286 00:19:30,036 --> 00:19:33,116 Speaker 1: my aunt, and it took us years to get to 287 00:19:33,196 --> 00:19:36,836 Speaker 1: that trust level. And here is this stranger, Patricia, who 288 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:39,236 Speaker 1: I'm getting closer in culture with us the days go on. 289 00:19:39,756 --> 00:19:43,356 Speaker 1: She just lets it rip and then I let it 290 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 1: rip and we have this beautiful, stinky moment. And that 291 00:19:47,476 --> 00:19:51,716 Speaker 1: takes trust. Yeah, And so that is the epitome of 292 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 1: my extraversion. But that's it. I'm still very afraid that 293 00:19:57,116 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 1: if I act out, even she will leave, because my 294 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:07,876 Speaker 1: mom has left, you know, so anybody kills you, we'll 295 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. The slight change of plans. 296 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 1: From what I read in your memoir, it seems like 297 00:20:24,596 --> 00:20:26,916 Speaker 1: the trust between you and others in your group really 298 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:29,276 Speaker 1: did ebb and flow over the course of your nine 299 00:20:29,316 --> 00:20:31,716 Speaker 1: week journey. You know, you would take a few steps forward, 300 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:34,596 Speaker 1: then many steps back, and then more steps forward and 301 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,236 Speaker 1: many steps back. Do you remember any defining moments in 302 00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,636 Speaker 1: which you became more trusting of the people in your group, 303 00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 1: Any other stories or scenes you can paint for us. 304 00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 1: So I think the cigarette scene was when I learned 305 00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 1: to trust Patricia, when I learned to trust the person 306 00:20:51,996 --> 00:20:54,756 Speaker 1: that I trusted the second most, or at times the most, 307 00:20:55,076 --> 00:20:59,276 Speaker 1: became this individual named Chino, the man. All they did 308 00:20:59,716 --> 00:21:04,956 Speaker 1: was chain smoke and drink and watch TV. And Cino 309 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:08,996 Speaker 1: was the youngest of the three. Chino was around nineteen 310 00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 1: or twenty, and I learned that he liked me, and 311 00:21:14,116 --> 00:21:16,556 Speaker 1: I learned that I could trust him. On this boat, 312 00:21:16,756 --> 00:21:19,876 Speaker 1: so we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and 313 00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:23,676 Speaker 1: it's completely dark, and it's already night. We got on 314 00:21:23,716 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 1: the boat at dawn around five am, and this must 315 00:21:26,836 --> 00:21:31,316 Speaker 1: have been around like ten pm eleven pm. And it's very, 316 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: very cold, and all I have is this little thin 317 00:21:35,356 --> 00:21:41,036 Speaker 1: jacket and I'm shivering, and Patricia has a jacket, and 318 00:21:41,676 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 1: her daughter also has a thin jacket, but she puts 319 00:21:44,156 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 1: her daughter inside, and then she also try to put 320 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,236 Speaker 1: me on top of her daughter. All three of us 321 00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: hurdled together and it's not working. The zippers not sipping up, 322 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 1: so the wind is still coming at me, and it 323 00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:59,916 Speaker 1: feels like I'm in like the Arctic ocean. And Chino 324 00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 1: is sitting across from us and he sees this, and 325 00:22:04,996 --> 00:22:08,796 Speaker 1: everybody is seeing this woman struggle, but nobody offers to help, 326 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:11,796 Speaker 1: not even the older man in the group. But Gino 327 00:22:12,276 --> 00:22:13,876 Speaker 1: is like, hey, how ye do you want to come 328 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 1: over here? Like I can cover you with his jacket 329 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 1: with his jacket, and I kind of look up at Patricia, 330 00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 1: who I trust. We have this bond now, and she 331 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 1: gives me the okay, and I'm like okay, and I 332 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:32,476 Speaker 1: walk across the boat. Gino opens his jacket and I 333 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:36,196 Speaker 1: put my arms where his arms go and its leaves 334 00:22:36,876 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 1: and he SIPs it up and he's just hugging me 335 00:22:39,396 --> 00:22:42,436 Speaker 1: and trying to warm me up because we're both extremely cold. 336 00:22:43,196 --> 00:22:47,396 Speaker 1: And from then on I learned that he cares. But 337 00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 1: again our relationship that has some flows. I knew that 338 00:22:50,916 --> 00:22:53,756 Speaker 1: he changed when he was only with the adults. He 339 00:22:53,836 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 1: was probably trying to be a man or trying to 340 00:22:57,396 --> 00:23:01,396 Speaker 1: impress these older men. So in him trying to impress 341 00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:05,116 Speaker 1: the man, he forgot about me, and he wouldn't really 342 00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:07,716 Speaker 1: talk to me. He would be different. So when he 343 00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:09,996 Speaker 1: tried to embody this more manly role, it came at 344 00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:14,116 Speaker 1: the extense of a trusting relationship with you. Yeah, and 345 00:23:14,316 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 1: I don't know, in a very patriarchal my chief the way, 346 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:19,196 Speaker 1: like a man is not supposed to take care of 347 00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:23,836 Speaker 1: a little kid, and yet this young man was. And 348 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,116 Speaker 1: the older men would tease him too, They were like, oh, 349 00:23:26,156 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 1: why are you this kid's mom? And that is, like 350 00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 1: I guess, not a thing that men should do. And 351 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: yet Chino China would and did. There's also this moment 352 00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:40,116 Speaker 1: when you are both in a detention center where Chino 353 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 1: really steps up as this surrogate father figure and helps 354 00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:50,156 Speaker 1: you use the restroom. You know, using the bathroom on 355 00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:53,796 Speaker 1: this trip was the biggest fear that I had my 356 00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,396 Speaker 1: grandpa in what the malan those two weeks. He took 357 00:23:56,396 --> 00:24:00,476 Speaker 1: it upon himself to really teach me to trust that 358 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to get flushed out into the ocean 359 00:24:02,916 --> 00:24:04,916 Speaker 1: if I flushed the toilet, So you were worried it 360 00:24:04,956 --> 00:24:07,676 Speaker 1: would suck you in. Yeah, that was a complete fear. 361 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 1: And I didn't know how to swim, so I was like, 362 00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:11,596 Speaker 1: if I'm flushed down the toilet and I'm in the ocean, 363 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 1: I'm gonna die. And then once my grandpa leaves, I 364 00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:21,436 Speaker 1: could do that privately. But peeing in warehouses and eventually 365 00:24:22,036 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: peeing in a detention cell in front of all these 366 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:32,956 Speaker 1: other adult men with adult size penises became this fearful thing. 367 00:24:33,196 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 1: And I learned to like keep my pee inside as 368 00:24:36,716 --> 00:24:40,796 Speaker 1: long as possible. And I was in attention for forty 369 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 1: eight hours, so at one point I had to pee. Yeah, 370 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:48,196 Speaker 1: And it is Cino who steps up. He pretty much 371 00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:53,796 Speaker 1: becomes the curtain so all the other people won't see 372 00:24:53,836 --> 00:24:58,276 Speaker 1: me pe and he does this repeatedly. I think it's 373 00:24:59,316 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 1: it's telling that it's that it's him, the pseudo father 374 00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:08,196 Speaker 1: who's really taken care of me. There's this very stirring 375 00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:10,836 Speaker 1: moment that you just drive in your book, in which, 376 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 1: after these three attempts, you successfully make it across the 377 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:18,876 Speaker 1: US Mexico border, and there's this feeling where trust is 378 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:22,836 Speaker 1: at an all time high. There's such unbridled joy and 379 00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:27,756 Speaker 1: happiness actually finally making it to your destination. But then 380 00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 1: it's accompanied by a massive heartbreak because you realize that 381 00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:35,396 Speaker 1: all these people you've grown close to over the last 382 00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:37,796 Speaker 1: nine weeks are going to be living on the opposite 383 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:41,276 Speaker 1: side of the US from you. And as you're forced 384 00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: to say goodbye to Patricia, Carla, and Chino, you realize 385 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 1: for the first time just how much your relationship has 386 00:25:48,036 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: shifted with them over the last nine weeks. The moment 387 00:25:53,276 --> 00:25:56,156 Speaker 1: that I have to say goodbye to them, you know 388 00:25:56,196 --> 00:25:59,996 Speaker 1: we have already made it. We're somewhere in a warehousing Tucson, 389 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: and we are not alone. The four of us are 390 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:07,316 Speaker 1: part of this group of thirty immigrants who have just 391 00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:12,036 Speaker 1: successfully crossed the border. And not only that, more and 392 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:14,996 Speaker 1: more vans keep coming. So at one point, this two 393 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 1: bedroom apartment in Tucson is filled with I want to say, 394 00:26:18,156 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 1: over a hundred people, and it smells bad. And in 395 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: this whole commotion of people coming and going, we Padresiacchino 396 00:26:30,356 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 1: and Kardilla have to say goodbye, and it didn't click 397 00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:38,276 Speaker 1: to me or in my brain that we Like. I 398 00:26:38,356 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 1: knew that the US was big geographically. I thought that 399 00:26:42,156 --> 00:26:44,716 Speaker 1: we were gonna at least be like an hour away 400 00:26:44,756 --> 00:26:48,436 Speaker 1: from each other. But they're in DC and I'm going 401 00:26:48,836 --> 00:26:52,916 Speaker 1: to San Francisco, and then describing that they still have 402 00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:55,916 Speaker 1: like a three day car ride left, I'm like, oh 403 00:26:55,956 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 1: my god, you're going really far. This goodbye is the 404 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:06,516 Speaker 1: goodbye that still makes me break down whenever I think 405 00:27:06,556 --> 00:27:11,836 Speaker 1: about it, because I still remember huddling in this dirty 406 00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 1: carpet in the middle of all these strangers and all 407 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 1: of us crying because they were going to say goodbye 408 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 1: to this kid, and I was gonna say goodbye to 409 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:29,316 Speaker 1: these family members. You know, they started as strangers and 410 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:36,716 Speaker 1: they became family. In that goodbye in that warehouse, I realized, 411 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:42,796 Speaker 1: because they were family, that I loved them, and I 412 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 1: knew that they loved me too, and I knew that 413 00:27:49,676 --> 00:27:52,596 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to see them as much, and I 414 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: didn't know that it was going to be forever, and 415 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: so I haven't seen them since then, and I think 416 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:02,276 Speaker 1: every time I didn't allow myself to remember that, and 417 00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:06,196 Speaker 1: whenever I do remember it, I get teary eyed, because 418 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:12,756 Speaker 1: this was it, This was the goodbye. And they are 419 00:28:12,796 --> 00:28:18,476 Speaker 1: the only people that know exactly every little thing that occurred, 420 00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 1: even the unimaginable things that you would think I am 421 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: making up. They are the only ones that know that 422 00:28:27,756 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 1: that truly happened, and they witnessed it with me, and 423 00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:33,996 Speaker 1: they were there every single step of the way, even 424 00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:36,516 Speaker 1: when we almost died in the desert, when we didn't 425 00:28:36,516 --> 00:28:41,356 Speaker 1: have water, and even when this Arizona rancher pointed a 426 00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:44,556 Speaker 1: shotgun at all of us, they were there and they 427 00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:48,836 Speaker 1: know it all. I think that's why it hurt, and 428 00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: that's why it hurts to you and remember that. And 429 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 1: I think what kept me from writing this memoir for 430 00:28:57,996 --> 00:29:02,476 Speaker 1: twenty years was that these individuals that I had learned 431 00:29:02,636 --> 00:29:05,676 Speaker 1: to trust and that I had learned to love, and 432 00:29:05,716 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 1: that loved me in the worst of conditions were gone. 433 00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:15,396 Speaker 1: And I think that five year old came back. And 434 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:19,276 Speaker 1: by that I mean that I probably blamed myself. I 435 00:29:19,436 --> 00:29:22,356 Speaker 1: blamed myself that I was the reason why they didn't 436 00:29:22,356 --> 00:29:24,676 Speaker 1: stay in touch, and that I was the reason why 437 00:29:24,836 --> 00:29:28,756 Speaker 1: they were gone. And of course I don't know what 438 00:29:28,796 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 1: their life was like. I don't know what they were 439 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:33,396 Speaker 1: coming to here, but I do know that after two 440 00:29:33,436 --> 00:29:36,596 Speaker 1: weeks we stayed in touch for not two weeks, like 441 00:29:36,596 --> 00:29:41,396 Speaker 1: like a few weeks, but then they stopped calling, and 442 00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: as a nine year old, I blamed myself again. So 443 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:49,156 Speaker 1: I don't know. And when you tried to call them, 444 00:29:49,716 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: you were not successful. They changed their number and but 445 00:29:56,796 --> 00:30:00,996 Speaker 1: we didn't change ours. Yeah, yeah, so you felt abandoned again. 446 00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:06,436 Speaker 1: I felt abandoned again, even though when it mattered, they 447 00:30:06,476 --> 00:30:13,956 Speaker 1: never abandoned me. Ye. Yeah, from what I understand, trying 448 00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 1: to get back in touch with Patricia Carlncino was a 449 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 1: huge motivation for you to write this memoir in the 450 00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:24,556 Speaker 1: first place, to revisit your traumatic past in so much 451 00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:27,996 Speaker 1: detail after pushing it away for so many years, and 452 00:30:29,236 --> 00:30:31,556 Speaker 1: curious to know if you are given the chance through 453 00:30:31,596 --> 00:30:35,076 Speaker 1: this book to reconnect with them, what would you want 454 00:30:35,116 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 1: to share with them in that conversation That I still 455 00:30:42,876 --> 00:30:48,196 Speaker 1: love them and that here is the nine year old 456 00:30:48,316 --> 00:30:53,156 Speaker 1: stranger kid they didn't know me, that they helped and 457 00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:57,196 Speaker 1: they chose to help, they didn't have to, and that 458 00:30:57,196 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 1: that kid has grown up, and this is the one 459 00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:03,796 Speaker 1: way that I know to thank them. You know, the 460 00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:06,716 Speaker 1: book is dedicated to them for a reason. I am 461 00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:10,996 Speaker 1: indebted to them for life and for my life, and 462 00:31:11,036 --> 00:31:12,876 Speaker 1: I just want them to know that I am very 463 00:31:13,116 --> 00:31:19,996 Speaker 1: very very very very grateful and yeah, that I still 464 00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:34,516 Speaker 1: love them and thank you. Yeah. Yeah. How would you 465 00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:41,316 Speaker 1: explain why it is you kept these memories buried for 466 00:31:41,396 --> 00:31:45,516 Speaker 1: so long? What were you running away from? I was 467 00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:50,756 Speaker 1: running away from myself, meaning that if I looked at 468 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:54,716 Speaker 1: this nine year old kid, it explains a lot of 469 00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:58,316 Speaker 1: how I act now as an adult. And so if 470 00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:00,436 Speaker 1: I look at him, I would be looking at myself, 471 00:32:00,476 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 1: and that is too much. What's striking me in this conversation, Javier, 472 00:32:07,036 --> 00:32:12,116 Speaker 1: is that we were left alone so many times in 473 00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:15,796 Speaker 1: your childhood. But what we know from the science of 474 00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 1: loneliness is that it's actually establishing a strong and loving 475 00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 1: relationship with yourself that is a prerequisite for staving off loneliness. 476 00:32:25,756 --> 00:32:29,796 Speaker 1: It's a prerequisite for being able to feel connection with others. 477 00:32:30,476 --> 00:32:32,996 Speaker 1: And I heard you talk in the beginning of this 478 00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 1: conversation about self hatred, and it seems like that's the 479 00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:49,596 Speaker 1: real demon that you've been fighting, Is that right? Absolutely? Yeah. 480 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:54,116 Speaker 1: I have this deep seated hatred of myself, and what 481 00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:58,156 Speaker 1: I need to know and learn is to love myself. Yeah. 482 00:32:58,436 --> 00:33:01,716 Speaker 1: I love who I am, and my wife reminds me 483 00:33:01,796 --> 00:33:06,316 Speaker 1: of this every single day, God bless her. I still 484 00:33:06,356 --> 00:33:08,756 Speaker 1: don't believe it. Yeah, And I think you're a one 485 00:33:08,796 --> 00:33:13,756 Speaker 1: hundred correct that if I don't love myself, it makes 486 00:33:13,796 --> 00:33:17,196 Speaker 1: the loneliness last longer. And it's like, I'm addicted to 487 00:33:17,236 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 1: that loneliness because I've been alone for so long. But 488 00:33:21,076 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 1: if I learned to love myself, I won't be because 489 00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:29,676 Speaker 1: now I would have a relationship with myself. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, 490 00:33:29,916 --> 00:33:33,516 Speaker 1: I've felt that self hatred too. I think so many 491 00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:36,356 Speaker 1: of us have. And oh, gosh, in your case, what 492 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,236 Speaker 1: I feel is it is such an unfounded dislike of 493 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: this little boy that I see as a hero is 494 00:33:43,076 --> 00:33:48,956 Speaker 1: a brilliant, strategic, loving little hero, and so it just 495 00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:51,876 Speaker 1: feels so irrational, right that you would you would not 496 00:33:51,956 --> 00:33:55,476 Speaker 1: love that little boy. But gosh, this is a big question. 497 00:33:55,516 --> 00:33:57,516 Speaker 1: But that's kind of like what has worked for you 498 00:33:57,596 --> 00:34:00,236 Speaker 1: in terms of learning to love yourself and to unwind 499 00:34:00,356 --> 00:34:09,556 Speaker 1: some of those negative thought patterns you know, in the 500 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:12,516 Speaker 1: process of writing this book, I would have this very 501 00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:15,556 Speaker 1: vivid dreams where I was back on the route. I 502 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:20,476 Speaker 1: was back somewhere sometime during those nine weeks. And in 503 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:24,516 Speaker 1: the writing of this in the facing it almost every day, 504 00:34:25,356 --> 00:34:29,156 Speaker 1: I learned to view the kid as how you just 505 00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:33,316 Speaker 1: describe them as a superhero. For twenty years, from the 506 00:34:33,316 --> 00:34:35,636 Speaker 1: ages of nine till twenty nine, I saw this kid 507 00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:39,396 Speaker 1: as this helpless push over who put people at risk. 508 00:34:40,636 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 1: And so I was blaming him and hating him for 509 00:34:43,716 --> 00:34:49,116 Speaker 1: having done what he did. Sorry, let me tell me 510 00:34:49,196 --> 00:34:52,036 Speaker 1: what you mean by done what he did? What did 511 00:34:52,076 --> 00:34:59,076 Speaker 1: you do by that? I mean that he immigrated by 512 00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:03,676 Speaker 1: himself that and that was on you, and that was 513 00:35:03,796 --> 00:35:09,356 Speaker 1: on me. And I blamed them because you know, why 514 00:35:09,396 --> 00:35:12,556 Speaker 1: would you do this? And I guess that traces back 515 00:35:12,596 --> 00:35:15,836 Speaker 1: to none of this would have happened if I had 516 00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:17,956 Speaker 1: been more lovable and my mom had stuck around and 517 00:35:17,996 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 1: I had given her a greater reason to stay. Yeah, 518 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:25,076 Speaker 1: it goes back to that. And so you blame yourself 519 00:35:25,116 --> 00:35:34,516 Speaker 1: even though you're a nine year old kid. Yeah. And 520 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:42,596 Speaker 1: and in the looking at this kid, I also realized 521 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:47,316 Speaker 1: that I was treating him how politicians and the news 522 00:35:47,316 --> 00:35:51,396 Speaker 1: outlets treat immigrants, so I was believing them, and that 523 00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:54,516 Speaker 1: also affected how I viewed my nine year old self. 524 00:35:55,556 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 1: He had committed a crime, he was taking resources that 525 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:07,116 Speaker 1: are not his. He is a pushover. He is I 526 00:36:08,756 --> 00:36:13,556 Speaker 1: don't know, somebody that doesn't belong into society. He's an outsider. 527 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:19,196 Speaker 1: All these negative terms that I have completely internalized, and 528 00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:24,436 Speaker 1: slowly I was like, no, hold up, this kid is 529 00:36:24,716 --> 00:36:31,156 Speaker 1: a g he's a gangster. He survived the unsurvivable. He 530 00:36:31,316 --> 00:36:37,156 Speaker 1: really knew how to survive. Rarely, rarely have I heard 531 00:36:37,596 --> 00:36:42,556 Speaker 1: that term survivor be attached to immigrants. You know your 532 00:36:42,596 --> 00:36:46,756 Speaker 1: refugee a lot, but it's unpacked that these refugees have 533 00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:53,076 Speaker 1: survived something. And these immigrants have survived the thousands of 534 00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:58,756 Speaker 1: miles as they cross Mexico, and they've survived the desert. 535 00:36:58,956 --> 00:37:03,556 Speaker 1: And using that term and claiming that term has really 536 00:37:04,276 --> 00:37:07,156 Speaker 1: unpacked a lot of things for me to the point 537 00:37:07,196 --> 00:37:10,156 Speaker 1: that I'm like, Wow, this kid is a superhero. He 538 00:37:10,236 --> 00:37:14,676 Speaker 1: has so many skills and he made it and that 539 00:37:15,116 --> 00:37:19,596 Speaker 1: gave me agency, and having that agency is the beginning 540 00:37:19,716 --> 00:37:22,676 Speaker 1: of learning to love myself. Yeah, I'm not there yet. 541 00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:25,756 Speaker 1: And when you said that, one thing that my wife 542 00:37:25,796 --> 00:37:31,716 Speaker 1: just recently made me do She made me tell myself 543 00:37:31,916 --> 00:37:34,476 Speaker 1: in front of a mirror that I love myself. She's like, 544 00:37:34,516 --> 00:37:36,716 Speaker 1: just do it twenty five times. And I couldn't do it. 545 00:37:37,356 --> 00:37:39,276 Speaker 1: And this is after I wrote the book. This was 546 00:37:39,316 --> 00:37:43,316 Speaker 1: like a few weeks ago. I couldn't do it. I 547 00:37:43,396 --> 00:37:49,116 Speaker 1: started crying. And that's even after having finished this. That's 548 00:37:49,156 --> 00:37:53,756 Speaker 1: still where I'm at. Although she doesn't know this, but 549 00:37:53,876 --> 00:37:57,036 Speaker 1: I've been on the road and I've caught myself staring 550 00:37:57,036 --> 00:37:58,916 Speaker 1: at the mirror and telling myself that I love that 551 00:37:58,996 --> 00:38:02,756 Speaker 1: I love myself. So I can't do it. I'm learning 552 00:38:03,076 --> 00:38:06,636 Speaker 1: to do it, and it sounds like a very basic thing, 553 00:38:07,436 --> 00:38:12,956 Speaker 1: but he has it has helped me progress. Yeah, how 554 00:38:12,996 --> 00:38:15,116 Speaker 1: do you think about when you reflect back on your 555 00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: journey and where you are today, how do you think 556 00:38:18,476 --> 00:38:25,956 Speaker 1: about loneliness? I used to think, I don't know that 557 00:38:25,996 --> 00:38:29,676 Speaker 1: cliche thing of people say, oh, happiness is fleeting, but 558 00:38:29,796 --> 00:38:32,956 Speaker 1: we think that happiness is like a place to be 559 00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:36,916 Speaker 1: and that it's going to stay forever. Well, I used 560 00:38:36,916 --> 00:38:41,676 Speaker 1: to think that loneliness was always forever place. And I'm 561 00:38:41,756 --> 00:38:45,076 Speaker 1: understanding it that is fleeting and it doesn't have to 562 00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:54,036 Speaker 1: stay forever and That's what I didn't realize. Part of 563 00:38:54,116 --> 00:38:57,156 Speaker 1: Javier's process for learning to love himself again has been 564 00:38:57,196 --> 00:39:00,436 Speaker 1: to rebuild trust with his mom. For years, he had 565 00:39:00,476 --> 00:39:03,676 Speaker 1: resisted talking to her about his childhood and how her 566 00:39:03,756 --> 00:39:08,556 Speaker 1: leaving affected him. But they finally had that conversation and 567 00:39:08,596 --> 00:39:12,196 Speaker 1: while says it's been a long road, today they are 568 00:39:12,236 --> 00:39:38,396 Speaker 1: closer than they've ever been. Hey, thanks so much for listening. 569 00:39:38,796 --> 00:39:41,556 Speaker 1: That's a wrap on season five of A Slight Change 570 00:39:41,596 --> 00:39:44,676 Speaker 1: of Plans. We'll be back in twenty twenty three with 571 00:39:44,716 --> 00:39:48,076 Speaker 1: new episodes. Until then, you can follow the show and 572 00:39:48,116 --> 00:39:51,996 Speaker 1: connect with me on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker, wishing 573 00:39:51,996 --> 00:40:04,676 Speaker 1: you a happy holiday in New Year. A Slight Change 574 00:40:04,716 --> 00:40:07,716 Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written an executive produced by me 575 00:40:07,916 --> 00:40:12,276 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Greene, 576 00:40:12,636 --> 00:40:17,516 Speaker 1: our story editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, 577 00:40:17,756 --> 00:40:21,956 Speaker 1: and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. Louise Scara wrote our 578 00:40:21,996 --> 00:40:25,196 Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 579 00:40:25,916 --> 00:40:28,916 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 580 00:40:29,036 --> 00:40:32,316 Speaker 1: So big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 581 00:40:32,636 --> 00:40:36,196 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a 582 00:40:36,196 --> 00:40:39,316 Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker