WEBVTT - Sleep and Dreams 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.320 Most of my dreams are about me against a ticking clock. 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.400 I'm not going to make a plane. I'm responsible for 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.760 packing my entire family. We have to get out of here. 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.720 I'm folding clothes that are the size of a mountain. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.239 Now, Katie, tell them about your dreams. Oh, that is 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.840 your dreams. That sounds a lot like real life. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:23.960 You think I'm processing what I feel like all day? 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:25.800 Yeah, that's very similar. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:26.720 Hi. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.440 I'm Katie Low's and I'm a dreamer, and. 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.560 I'm Adam Shapiro, and I am living my dream. 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:34.559 Because I get to host the podcast with you. 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:36.880 Katie, Ah Adam. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:41.160 This is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.800 iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.520 This episode is about sleep and dreams. 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.680 We've been keeping dream journals and we're logging our dreams 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:52.519 from the night before. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.040 Today is the day when we're going to talk to 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.240 the experts about dreams. I'm dying to know. How's your 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.000 dream journal? Looking for today's discussion. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.160 It's a little weird. 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:04.520 We've been keeping dream journals for about a month now, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.480 and according to psychology experts, there are a number of 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.319 benefits to keeping a dream journal. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.440 For starters. It can help you be. 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.040 More creative and think outside the box when you're awake. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.560 So I'm super curious to hear about your overall experience 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.920 keeping a dream journal. Did it teach you anything surprising 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:21.720 about yourself? 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:22.360 Yes? 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.120 I mean, first of all, I've always just in general 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.680 thought I was somebody that couldn't remember their dreams. 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.520 I found the same thing. And I also found in 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.039 keeping our dream journals that I have like recurring elements 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.919 in my dreams. I can't wait to read your dream journal. 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:38.880 I can't wait to read your dream journal. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:43.080 All listening. Full disclosure, we haven't seen each other's dream journals. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.160 As far as you know, really well, we have the 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.160 same password. I'm joking. I'm not going to read your 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:49.919 dream journal. I dodn't know your dream journal. 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.360 This is such a fascinating topic, and Katie and I 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.280 cannot wait to hear what our guests have to say 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.080 about dreams in sleep. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.640 To help us figure out what dreams are and why 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.240 we have them. We are joined today by doctor Robert Stickgold, 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.680 co author with his colleague Anthony Zadra of the book 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.639 When Brain's Dream. He's done groundbreaking research into the links 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.800 between dreams and memory consolidation and learning. He's a professor 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.320 of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and director of the 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.320 Center for Sleep and Cognition at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:25.480 Center in Boston. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.800 And we're looking forward to decoding the often confusing content 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:34.080 of our dreams with Justina. Lastly, Justina is the author 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.880 of several books, including Wake Up to Your Dreams, Transform 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.679 Your Relationship's, career, and Health While You Sleep. She is 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.200 also the founder of the Institute for Dream Studies. Welcome Justina. Yes, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:51.679 before we talk about specific dreams, Bob, what is happening 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.320 in our bodies and especially in our brains when we're dreaming. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.760 Well, you're going to love this answer. We don't really know. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.240 We know it's different than your brain, for example, when 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.919 you're in rem sleep or rapid eye movements sleep, when 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.119 you have your most intense dreams. But to be clear, dreaming, 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:14.160 like consciousness when we're awake, is still a mystery. We 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.480 can't see it in our brains. When I talk to 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.360 my students, I always stun them by saying, there have 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.480 been no scientific experiments that have proven that humans are conscious. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:25.920 I can tell you how the brain changes and that 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.960 must have something to do with why dreaming happens. But 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.320 we don't know where consciousness, including dreaming, comes from. So 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.440 what happens in your brain? While some areas turn off, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:42.560 most notably an ugly name dorsal lateral prefrontal cortext. 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.360 That Katie say that three times fast, Katie. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.440 I think I had to say that in the show 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.000 once when I was a brain surgeon. 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:50.000 I sounded like I knew what I was talking about. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.200 It's a region of your brain that's used when you're 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:57.120 making decisions. It's executive control, it's impulse inhibition, and when 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.320 you go into rem sleep that shuts off. So all 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.400 of those processes are unavailable to the dreaming brain, which 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.640 is probably why we act irrationally and don't feel like 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:13.320 we're in control. We lose connections between but a structure 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.360 called the hippocampus, which is critical for memory formation and 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.040 the rest of our brain, so that when we're dreaming, 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.920 we can't call up a recent memory and actually remember it. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:26.480 It's really bananas wow. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.640 And then on the flip side, the emotional system in 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:34.320 the brain, the limbic segment of the brain that's ramped 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.359 up all the emotional structures in the brain seem to 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.320 go into overdrive, which is probably why our dreams tend 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.240 to be so emotional. But you'll notice I'm always saying, 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:49.600 which is probably why, because we just don't know how 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.920 to test these things. We don't know how to see consciousness. 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.479 We cannot see dreaming in the brain if we've got 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.400 two hundred and fifty electrodes on their brain, if we've 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.760 got them in a fMRI scanner, where you can say, oh, oh, oh, now, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.480 now there's a seventy percent chance that she's dreaming, But 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.680 we can't say, look at that she's dreaming. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.960 Justina, you are considered a dream expert and founded the 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.840 Institute for Dream Studies. I'm so curious to hear your 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.599 thoughts on why we dream, what purpose to dream serve? 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.680 Oh my goodness, for me, there are many purposes on 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.680 a personal level, and the people that I work with, 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:38.280 we advance in our consciousness and our ability to problem solve, 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.719 and we can see things more clearly that we can't 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.080 see very well in our waking lives. I say that 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.360 dreams are like for me, it's a twenty four to 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.320 seven in our therapist comes free. You don't have to 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.839 set up an appointment nothing, you know, you just have 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.200 to pay attention, which is really hard for people. But 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.719 for many of the reasons that Bob was talking about, 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:09.160 you know that we are not wired to remember our dreams, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.440 so we have to make special effort. The reason I 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:16.520 pay attention to my dreams is because it makes a 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.080 huge difference in my life and a huge difference in 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.120 my relationship with other people. 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.479 And Bob, what would you say, why scientifically do we dream? 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:29.920 So you know, the word why is one of those 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.960 words that can be spun seven different ways. And I 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.960 think just you know, what you have said about the 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.120 way you and I think, myself and others can and 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.159 do use our dreams when we remember them is spot on. 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.640 But I would argue as a as a sort of 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:54.120 total biologist. While we're sleeping, our brain is working full time. 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:59.000 It is spending eight hours processing all the memories that 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:03.280 are formed during the day. For every two hours we 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.400 spend a week taking in new information, it takes an 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.720 hour to process two hours of input. We don't remember 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.320 more than maybe, if you're really good at a ten 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.320 or fifteen percent of our dreams, and we get these 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.200 fleeting moments that we remember the are these whole long 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.320 dreams that we remember, but still there are a small 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.760 fraction of that night. And so Tony Zadro and I 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.160 recently came out with a book called When Brains Dream, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.360 in which we put forward this next up model of dreaming, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:40.520 which says that the biological function of dreaming is network 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.680 exploration to understand possibilities. We know that when we're asleep, 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:51.840 and especially in rem sleep, our brains connections are subtly manipulated, 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.400 so it's much easier for the brain to find sort 0:07:55.400 --> 0:08:01.200 of unusual, distant weak connections between ideas. So you know, yeah, 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.080 I mean I So you know, I'm driving home from 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.160 work and some guy runs the stop sign and almost 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.240 crashes into me. In that night, I dreamed that I'm 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.679 at an amusement park on bumper cars. Sure, which makes 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.920 perfect sense, yes, but really doesn't speak much to the 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.920 issue of what happened yesterday. I'm just in the bumper 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:26.360 car was my son Adam, who's just having a great time, 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.000 and I'm saying this isn't fun. I don't want to 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.800 be here at all, you know. So there's a whole 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.360 other side of the story. How do we find the 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.440 meaning of all of that. That takes a lot of time, 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:37.880 and that's what our brain is doing. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:39.520 Justina. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.679 I wanted to know with what you do, tell us 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.480 a little bit of the story about how you found 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.760 your way into your field of dream studies. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.000 You know I had as a child. I loved my 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.000 dream so it was very creative and I loved them, 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.520 but I had nobody in my family to talk to 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.319 about my dreams. It was more like, let's talk about 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.240 something important now, you know, and that's all make believe 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.480 and everything. So when I realized that these could impact 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.480 my life, I joined a dream group. 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:15.080 That is absolutely fascinating. So it's a group of people 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.000 who get together and talk about their dreams. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:18.480 Right, I want to join one? 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.199 I would I don't know. I don't know if it's 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:22.640 for me. I mean, if there's wine. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.480 Yeah. And with the very first dream that I shared, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.920 my life changed. I had been to counseling, I had 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.240 done all kinds of things, but I had never seen 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.520 it from the perspective of my dream and it was 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.240 it was amazing. And so with each dream I shared, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.560 it just was more and more of an open winda 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:50.320 to who Justina was. Authentically. I had been told so 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.760 many different stories throughout my life of who I was. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:58.280 None of them felt like me, but I believed it 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.320 because there are adults in your life telling you this, 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.200 this is you, this is what you know, what you're 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.360 good at or what you're bad at, or this is 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.800 what you deserve or not deserve, and this. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.800 Is who you're going to be when you grow up. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.680 Yes, how do you help people understand their dreams? 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.360 Well, a mato for dream synergy is dreams plus action 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:23.960 equals change because the dreams come to us naturally every night, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.320 like Bob said, but we have to provide the action 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:32.400 as individuals. Katie, you have all of your life experiences, Adam, 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.080 you do, and they are going to be used. All 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.960 of those life experiences to create and manufacture your dream. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.760 If I start looking at your dream without you and 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.720 tell you what that means, then guess who's that's about. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:55.040 That's about me. And that's why we cannot interpret other 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:56.720 people's dreams. 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:01.960 Thank you, because we do not have the ability to 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:06.240 be the other person. We have to put our paper 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.040 beside our bed to record our dreams because we're not remembering. 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.400 We have to pay attention to that and learn that 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:15.480 metaphorical language of. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.160 Dreams, Right, and Bob, do you have you found in 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.839 your research a bunch of differentiation between men and women 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.720 in dreaming and specifically sex dreams. 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.199 I mean, men tend to sleep with in their dreams, 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.400 tend to sleep with women they don't know, women tend 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.480 to sleep with men that they do know. I did 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.040 one study looking at differences between men and women, mostly 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.679 in the emotions that they express in their dreams, and 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.319 there were surprisingly few. I had thought we would find 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.000 that men would be more angry in their dreams and 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.760 women would be more fearful in their dreams, but the 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.640 numbers were identical between men and women for both of those. 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:59.520 Well, sex dreams really affect so many people, and I've 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:05.160 seen people's lives. The marriage is shaken apart because recurring 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:10.240 dream of having sex with another partner, and it really 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:16.920 upset the spouse. Of course, and once you look at 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.679 that in dreams again we have to think of metaphorical language. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.600 So as an example, this person came in to me 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:30.040 and had their spouse had had a lot of these dreams. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.840 So then we talked to the spouse, I ask, what 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:40.840 does this ex girlfriend represent to you? Three words and so, 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:48.680 just to be brief say, the three words were creative, fun, 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:55.760 and adventuresome. And so then you think about what part 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.960 of you is like that, and this particular person said, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.480 there isn't a part. It used to be that way 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.600 when I was in college, but I do not have 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.000 a bit of that anymore. What the person was hungering 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:15.000 for was having an eimate relationship with that part of himself. 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.400 So if we look at characters as aspects of ourselves, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:24.000 we have a broader and a better perspective of the 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.040 parts of ourselves that are playing and reacting to ours 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.480 back and forth. So characters are so much fun and 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.000 dreams because we start seeing ourselves in new ways. 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.160 Oh there's so much more I want to find out, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.160 but let's take a quick break. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:44.400 You're not dreaming. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.680 Chasing Sleep is back and we're talking about sleep and 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.319 dreams with Justina. Lastly, from the Institute for Dream Studies 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:58.040 and Sleep researcher Robert Stickle. So, Adam and I have 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.839 been asked to keep journal about our dreams since we've 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.400 been preparing for this episode. Bob, Justina, I think Adam 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.440 and I would love to get your help better understanding 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:10.040 our dreams. 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:10.520 M hmm. 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.560 So, Adam, do you want to start us off and 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.000 share one of your favorites? 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:16.520 Oh? Yeah, I will say so. 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:18.959 Many of my dreams seem to have a common theme 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.680 of me being a fish out of water and having 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.440 no idea how to handle the situation I'm in the 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.400 middle of. The dream took place at a health retreat. 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.480 The first night everyone had to eat socks. 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.200 Oh do you remember more? 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:35.160 Or I do? 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.320 Remember that we were staying at my grandmother's house and 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:43.280 that it was very cult like, especially about the socks. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.920 I just don't understand how I'm going to eat these 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:49.680 and get them down. 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.000 The first question that I always ask the dreamer is 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.320 how are you feeling? I'm all about emotions, and Bob 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.040 mentioned about the emotions in the dream and that part 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.880 of the brain being available to us the mad, sad, glad, 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.720 or afraid. If we can narrow our emotions down to that, 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.920 then we can take some action. But how were you feeling? 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.800 If I ask you mad, sad, glad or afraid. 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.840 During the dream or talking about it? 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.040 Yeah, during the dream afraid? 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:22.960 Afraid? 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:24.360 Yeah? Probably? 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.000 And do you know what you are afraid of? 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:26.560 Oh? 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:27.400 Good question. 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:29.480 I was afraid that I was going to choke on 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.720 the socks, for sure, but I always I. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.920 Could never do your job, Justina, or I would be 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.040 laughing at everyone. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:39.440 I couldn't well. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.920 And I think I was also just sort of afraid 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.080 of where this was all going. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.800 You know, what was the point of this retreat? 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:47.520 Was there confusion in there too? 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.280 Yes, lots of confusion. I was sort of baffled because. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.360 I feel like confusion is one of the hurdles that 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.720 we have to get over, because confusion leads us to 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.000 more confusion. And I started realizing this with the more 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.160 people I worked with, that it is not a well 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.520 defined emotion. It's not an emotion at all. We get 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.440 confused because I'm afraid and I don't know what's coming next. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.560 Whereas if I say I'm afraid, right, what am I 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:20.920 afraid of? 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:21.800 Now? 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.640 I'm afraid of choking on the socks? The next thing, 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.920 if it were my dream, is that I would want 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.280 to find out is what is that? What are the 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.600 socks representing to me? So if you gave me three 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.480 three descriptive words of socks, what are they dry? 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:50.960 I would say they are stretchy and fluffy, fluffy? 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.800 And what purpose would you say they they serve. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.360 Right, they keep your feet healthy and they keep it 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:04.400 from they protect your feet from you know, well, Katie's 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:05.160 feeling this right. 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.480 Oh, my goodness, are the socks connected to Adam has 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.160 been dealing with plantar fasci itis for months and he's 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.440 been dealing with so many like different variations of sock 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.280 and feet things to protect his foot. 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.199 But it could also be metaphorical. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.320 Yes, and you know where you were. What kind of 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.800 retreat was it? That was the first thing I heard? 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.480 Oh right, it was like a health and fitness retreat. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.640 Health and fitness, yes retreat. And so the next thing 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.959 that I'm really interested in is the grandmother, right, So 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.520 what what are the things that you associate with your 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.639 grandmother's house? Just what first comes. 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:50.680 To my Yeah, liked quiet. 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:55.199 Which would represent for me a really boost to my 0:17:55.359 --> 0:18:00.440 health if I'm in a sunny, quiet, relaxing place maybe 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.560 and it would be real opposite from my daily life. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:03.880 Right. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:09.119 Oh, remember how it was at grandmother's house. Maybe I 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.560 need more of this now. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.000 Right, And I'm being taken away by this sort of 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:20.200 cult like health retreat that's forcing me to right, oh, 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.320 interesting to sort of eat the thing that protects my 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.360 feet from her getting. 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.520 So to think of it as not sucks at all, 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:34.400 but the metaphorical language of a sock to me represents 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.800 protection and it's for me. I've had several dreams where 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:44.800 the protection was for I realized my soul soo ul 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:49.480 instead of sol e. Dreams love that where they shift. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.640 Wow, we are brilliant people. 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.000 I know. That's what. I can't believe it. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.159 I am so much smarter in my dreams than I 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:58.479 am in my waking life. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:04.160 We all are. That is highest intelligence because we are 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:11.280 not confused by other things that we've been told and 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.720 that we've learned, and our belief system. So the belief 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:17.000 gets in the way. 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.520 Bob, I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask you 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.399 the details of the dream. Are the details of a 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.840 dream more significant than the emotions? What does the research 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:27.920 say about that? 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:32.160 I don't think the research has anything to say about that. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:38.720 About what's important, Christina, that was a beautiful presentation and 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.880 I was really impressed by it. And it's working on metaphor, 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.640 and it's working on weak associations that have been somehow 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.640 pulled together. I mean that, as Justina points out, becomes 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.360 useful but even if you don't remember the dream, you're 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.000 gonna wake up and you're gonna say, I need to 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:00.360 do something about my. 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:04.920 Feet, right, don't take anything likely. I have in the 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.679 thousands and thousands of dreams that I've worked with with people, 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.720 I have never found one thing in the dream that 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.560 did not have significance. And when you say, oh, I'm 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.320 so smart to be able to create that, even though 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.879 I'd majored in art all of these things, it was 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:26.200 my dreams that showed me that I am a creative person, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.160 and I believe we all have that capability. 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.239 Katie, what about your dream? Well, we got to get 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:31.760 to yours. 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.000 Oh yeah, yeah, so yeah, I want to hear. So 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.879 here's my dream. My family and I are in Mexico. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.440 We're in a boat, like a really lovely fishing boat, 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.719 those ones that have the rods sticking out and on 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.159 the white captain's leather fancy chair. So this is like 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:54.040 a nice boat. Is the director of my son's nursery school. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.840 He's driving the fishing boat. There are huge swells and 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:03.040 a hurricane is in the distance and is touching down 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.919 in the water. Yeah, it's the hurricane. 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.880 Was so clear. I am freaking out. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.760 And the director is so calm in a T shirt, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.840 lounging back in his captain leather white chair. 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.680 This is the most Katie dream I've ever I could 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.160 ever like create on my own. 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.120 I couldn't write a more Katie dream than this. 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.520 So Katie tell us about Mexico. Oh, what does that 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:31.720 represent for you? 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:36.359 Well, we had just gone on a family vacation there, and. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:44.360 What was that like? Like great anxiety producing, relaxed anxiety producing? 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.119 Did you ever feel like you weren't in control and 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.359 people who were in control did not know what they 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:49.840 were doing? 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.280 I felt very out of control the whole time. 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.120 And this guy give us three adjectives. 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.639 He's in his late seventies and he's one of the 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.680 leading experts on early childhood development. 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.520 He's really really confident. 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.080 You know, you trust him, but he's also very opinionated, 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:12.359 and it's his way or the highway. 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.360 And I have two ways that I can be. Now, 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.359 do you know that part of yourself that is well 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:24.800 known in their field? Yes, they are confident. 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.760 Yeah, I can be that way in some fields. 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:33.040 So sure, Because we're always balancing these aspects of ourselves, 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:38.240 it seems like, would you rather be that person. Yes, okay, 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:42.320 and now to learn to access that. And I love 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.280 that description of the white chair. I would draw that. 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:47.560 I would buy one and put it in my house 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.040 and sit in it to remind myself that in this 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.680 chair here is that part of myself. 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:59.840 And and you know, yeah, grounded, calm, unaffected, like not 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:05.240 easily thrown around by life's waves and tornadoes. Correct, Yes, Adam, 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:06.800 are you losing your mind right now? 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.800