Speaker 1: Most of my dreams are about me against a ticking clock.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make a plane. I'm responsible for
Speaker 1: packing my entire family. We have to get out of here.
Speaker 1: I'm folding clothes that are the size of a mountain.
Speaker 2: Now, Katie, tell them about your dreams. Oh, that is
Speaker 2: your dreams. That sounds a lot like real life.
Speaker 3: You think I'm processing what I feel like all day?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very similar.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm Katie Low's and I'm a dreamer, and.
Speaker 4: I'm Adam Shapiro, and I am living my dream.
Speaker 2: Because I get to host the podcast with you.
Speaker 3: Katie, Ah Adam.
Speaker 4: This is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from
Speaker 4: iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.
Speaker 3: This episode is about sleep and dreams.
Speaker 4: We've been keeping dream journals and we're logging our dreams
Speaker 4: from the night before.
Speaker 1: Today is the day when we're going to talk to
Speaker 1: the experts about dreams. I'm dying to know. How's your
Speaker 1: dream journal? Looking for today's discussion.
Speaker 2: It's a little weird.
Speaker 1: We've been keeping dream journals for about a month now,
Speaker 1: and according to psychology experts, there are a number of
Speaker 1: benefits to keeping a dream journal.
Speaker 3: For starters. It can help you be.
Speaker 1: More creative and think outside the box when you're awake.
Speaker 1: So I'm super curious to hear about your overall experience
Speaker 1: keeping a dream journal. Did it teach you anything surprising
Speaker 1: about yourself?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, I've always just in general
Speaker 4: thought I was somebody that couldn't remember their dreams.
Speaker 1: I found the same thing. And I also found in
Speaker 1: keeping our dream journals that I have like recurring elements
Speaker 1: in my dreams. I can't wait to read your dream journal.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to read your dream journal.
Speaker 1: All listening. Full disclosure, we haven't seen each other's dream journals.
Speaker 2: As far as you know, really well, we have the
Speaker 2: same password. I'm joking. I'm not going to read your
Speaker 2: dream journal. I dodn't know your dream journal.
Speaker 4: This is such a fascinating topic, and Katie and I
Speaker 4: cannot wait to hear what our guests have to say
Speaker 4: about dreams in sleep.
Speaker 1: To help us figure out what dreams are and why
Speaker 1: we have them. We are joined today by doctor Robert Stickgold,
Speaker 1: co author with his colleague Anthony Zadra of the book
Speaker 1: When Brain's Dream. He's done groundbreaking research into the links
Speaker 1: between dreams and memory consolidation and learning. He's a professor
Speaker 1: of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and director of the
Speaker 1: Center for Sleep and Cognition at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical
Speaker 1: Center in Boston.
Speaker 4: And we're looking forward to decoding the often confusing content
Speaker 4: of our dreams with Justina. Lastly, Justina is the author
Speaker 4: of several books, including Wake Up to Your Dreams, Transform
Speaker 4: Your Relationship's, career, and Health While You Sleep. She is
Speaker 4: also the founder of the Institute for Dream Studies. Welcome Justina. Yes,
Speaker 4: before we talk about specific dreams, Bob, what is happening
Speaker 4: in our bodies and especially in our brains when we're dreaming.
Speaker 5: Well, you're going to love this answer. We don't really know.
Speaker 5: We know it's different than your brain, for example, when
Speaker 5: you're in rem sleep or rapid eye movements sleep, when
Speaker 5: you have your most intense dreams. But to be clear, dreaming,
Speaker 5: like consciousness when we're awake, is still a mystery. We
Speaker 5: can't see it in our brains. When I talk to
Speaker 5: my students, I always stun them by saying, there have
Speaker 5: been no scientific experiments that have proven that humans are conscious.
Speaker 5: I can tell you how the brain changes and that
Speaker 5: must have something to do with why dreaming happens. But
Speaker 5: we don't know where consciousness, including dreaming, comes from. So
Speaker 5: what happens in your brain? While some areas turn off,
Speaker 5: most notably an ugly name dorsal lateral prefrontal cortext.
Speaker 1: That Katie say that three times fast, Katie.
Speaker 4: I think I had to say that in the show
Speaker 4: once when I was a brain surgeon.
Speaker 2: I sounded like I knew what I was talking about.
Speaker 5: It's a region of your brain that's used when you're
Speaker 5: making decisions. It's executive control, it's impulse inhibition, and when
Speaker 5: you go into rem sleep that shuts off. So all
Speaker 5: of those processes are unavailable to the dreaming brain, which
Speaker 5: is probably why we act irrationally and don't feel like
Speaker 5: we're in control. We lose connections between but a structure
Speaker 5: called the hippocampus, which is critical for memory formation and
Speaker 5: the rest of our brain, so that when we're dreaming,
Speaker 5: we can't call up a recent memory and actually remember it.
Speaker 3: It's really bananas wow.
Speaker 5: And then on the flip side, the emotional system in
Speaker 5: the brain, the limbic segment of the brain that's ramped
Speaker 5: up all the emotional structures in the brain seem to
Speaker 5: go into overdrive, which is probably why our dreams tend
Speaker 5: to be so emotional. But you'll notice I'm always saying,
Speaker 5: which is probably why, because we just don't know how
Speaker 5: to test these things. We don't know how to see consciousness.
Speaker 5: We cannot see dreaming in the brain if we've got
Speaker 5: two hundred and fifty electrodes on their brain, if we've
Speaker 5: got them in a fMRI scanner, where you can say, oh, oh, oh, now,
Speaker 5: now there's a seventy percent chance that she's dreaming, But
Speaker 5: we can't say, look at that she's dreaming.
Speaker 1: Justina, you are considered a dream expert and founded the
Speaker 1: Institute for Dream Studies. I'm so curious to hear your
Speaker 1: thoughts on why we dream, what purpose to dream serve?
Speaker 6: Oh my goodness, for me, there are many purposes on
Speaker 6: a personal level, and the people that I work with,
Speaker 6: we advance in our consciousness and our ability to problem solve,
Speaker 6: and we can see things more clearly that we can't
Speaker 6: see very well in our waking lives. I say that
Speaker 6: dreams are like for me, it's a twenty four to
Speaker 6: seven in our therapist comes free. You don't have to
Speaker 6: set up an appointment nothing, you know, you just have
Speaker 6: to pay attention, which is really hard for people. But
Speaker 6: for many of the reasons that Bob was talking about,
Speaker 6: you know that we are not wired to remember our dreams,
Speaker 6: so we have to make special effort. The reason I
Speaker 6: pay attention to my dreams is because it makes a
Speaker 6: huge difference in my life and a huge difference in
Speaker 6: my relationship with other people.
Speaker 1: And Bob, what would you say, why scientifically do we dream?
Speaker 5: So you know, the word why is one of those
Speaker 5: words that can be spun seven different ways. And I
Speaker 5: think just you know, what you have said about the
Speaker 5: way you and I think, myself and others can and
Speaker 5: do use our dreams when we remember them is spot on.
Speaker 5: But I would argue as a as a sort of
Speaker 5: total biologist. While we're sleeping, our brain is working full time.
Speaker 5: It is spending eight hours processing all the memories that
Speaker 5: are formed during the day. For every two hours we
Speaker 5: spend a week taking in new information, it takes an
Speaker 5: hour to process two hours of input. We don't remember
Speaker 5: more than maybe, if you're really good at a ten
Speaker 5: or fifteen percent of our dreams, and we get these
Speaker 5: fleeting moments that we remember the are these whole long
Speaker 5: dreams that we remember, but still there are a small
Speaker 5: fraction of that night. And so Tony Zadro and I
Speaker 5: recently came out with a book called When Brains Dream,
Speaker 5: in which we put forward this next up model of dreaming,
Speaker 5: which says that the biological function of dreaming is network
Speaker 5: exploration to understand possibilities. We know that when we're asleep,
Speaker 5: and especially in rem sleep, our brains connections are subtly manipulated,
Speaker 5: so it's much easier for the brain to find sort
Speaker 5: of unusual, distant weak connections between ideas. So you know, yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean I So you know, I'm driving home from
Speaker 5: work and some guy runs the stop sign and almost
Speaker 5: crashes into me. In that night, I dreamed that I'm
Speaker 5: at an amusement park on bumper cars. Sure, which makes
Speaker 5: perfect sense, yes, but really doesn't speak much to the
Speaker 5: issue of what happened yesterday. I'm just in the bumper
Speaker 5: car was my son Adam, who's just having a great time,
Speaker 5: and I'm saying this isn't fun. I don't want to
Speaker 5: be here at all, you know. So there's a whole
Speaker 5: other side of the story. How do we find the
Speaker 5: meaning of all of that. That takes a lot of time,
Speaker 5: and that's what our brain is doing.
Speaker 3: Justina.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know with what you do, tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit of the story about how you found
Speaker 1: your way into your field of dream studies.
Speaker 6: You know I had as a child. I loved my
Speaker 6: dream so it was very creative and I loved them,
Speaker 6: but I had nobody in my family to talk to
Speaker 6: about my dreams. It was more like, let's talk about
Speaker 6: something important now, you know, and that's all make believe
Speaker 6: and everything. So when I realized that these could impact
Speaker 6: my life, I joined a dream group.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely fascinating. So it's a group of people
Speaker 1: who get together and talk about their dreams.
Speaker 3: Right, I want to join one?
Speaker 2: I would I don't know. I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: for me. I mean, if there's wine.
Speaker 6: Yeah. And with the very first dream that I shared,
Speaker 6: my life changed. I had been to counseling, I had
Speaker 6: done all kinds of things, but I had never seen
Speaker 6: it from the perspective of my dream and it was
Speaker 6: it was amazing. And so with each dream I shared,
Speaker 6: it just was more and more of an open winda
Speaker 6: to who Justina was. Authentically. I had been told so
Speaker 6: many different stories throughout my life of who I was.
Speaker 6: None of them felt like me, but I believed it
Speaker 6: because there are adults in your life telling you this,
Speaker 6: this is you, this is what you know, what you're
Speaker 6: good at or what you're bad at, or this is
Speaker 6: what you deserve or not deserve, and this.
Speaker 5: Is who you're going to be when you grow up.
Speaker 3: Yes, how do you help people understand their dreams?
Speaker 6: Well, a mato for dream synergy is dreams plus action
Speaker 6: equals change because the dreams come to us naturally every night,
Speaker 6: like Bob said, but we have to provide the action
Speaker 6: as individuals. Katie, you have all of your life experiences, Adam,
Speaker 6: you do, and they are going to be used. All
Speaker 6: of those life experiences to create and manufacture your dream.
Speaker 6: If I start looking at your dream without you and
Speaker 6: tell you what that means, then guess who's that's about.
Speaker 6: That's about me. And that's why we cannot interpret other
Speaker 6: people's dreams.
Speaker 7: Thank you, because we do not have the ability to
Speaker 7: be the other person. We have to put our paper
Speaker 7: beside our bed to record our dreams because we're not remembering.
Speaker 7: We have to pay attention to that and learn that
Speaker 7: metaphorical language of.
Speaker 1: Dreams, Right, and Bob, do you have you found in
Speaker 1: your research a bunch of differentiation between men and women
Speaker 1: in dreaming and specifically sex dreams.
Speaker 5: I mean, men tend to sleep with in their dreams,
Speaker 5: tend to sleep with women they don't know, women tend
Speaker 5: to sleep with men that they do know. I did
Speaker 5: one study looking at differences between men and women, mostly
Speaker 5: in the emotions that they express in their dreams, and
Speaker 5: there were surprisingly few. I had thought we would find
Speaker 5: that men would be more angry in their dreams and
Speaker 5: women would be more fearful in their dreams, but the
Speaker 5: numbers were identical between men and women for both of those.
Speaker 6: Well, sex dreams really affect so many people, and I've
Speaker 6: seen people's lives. The marriage is shaken apart because recurring
Speaker 6: dream of having sex with another partner, and it really
Speaker 6: upset the spouse. Of course, and once you look at
Speaker 6: that in dreams again we have to think of metaphorical language.
Speaker 6: So as an example, this person came in to me
Speaker 6: and had their spouse had had a lot of these dreams.
Speaker 6: So then we talked to the spouse, I ask, what
Speaker 6: does this ex girlfriend represent to you? Three words and so,
Speaker 6: just to be brief say, the three words were creative, fun,
Speaker 6: and adventuresome. And so then you think about what part
Speaker 6: of you is like that, and this particular person said,
Speaker 6: there isn't a part. It used to be that way
Speaker 6: when I was in college, but I do not have
Speaker 6: a bit of that anymore. What the person was hungering
Speaker 6: for was having an eimate relationship with that part of himself.
Speaker 6: So if we look at characters as aspects of ourselves,
Speaker 6: we have a broader and a better perspective of the
Speaker 6: parts of ourselves that are playing and reacting to ours
Speaker 6: back and forth. So characters are so much fun and
Speaker 6: dreams because we start seeing ourselves in new ways.
Speaker 4: Oh there's so much more I want to find out,
Speaker 4: but let's take a quick break.
Speaker 3: You're not dreaming.
Speaker 1: Chasing Sleep is back and we're talking about sleep and
Speaker 1: dreams with Justina. Lastly, from the Institute for Dream Studies
Speaker 1: and Sleep researcher Robert Stickle. So, Adam and I have
Speaker 1: been asked to keep journal about our dreams since we've
Speaker 1: been preparing for this episode. Bob, Justina, I think Adam
Speaker 1: and I would love to get your help better understanding
Speaker 1: our dreams.
Speaker 2: M hmm.
Speaker 1: So, Adam, do you want to start us off and
Speaker 1: share one of your favorites?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I will say so.
Speaker 4: Many of my dreams seem to have a common theme
Speaker 4: of me being a fish out of water and having
Speaker 4: no idea how to handle the situation I'm in the
Speaker 4: middle of. The dream took place at a health retreat.
Speaker 4: The first night everyone had to eat socks.
Speaker 6: Oh do you remember more?
Speaker 2: Or I do?
Speaker 4: Remember that we were staying at my grandmother's house and
Speaker 4: that it was very cult like, especially about the socks.
Speaker 4: I just don't understand how I'm going to eat these
Speaker 4: and get them down.
Speaker 6: The first question that I always ask the dreamer is
Speaker 6: how are you feeling? I'm all about emotions, and Bob
Speaker 6: mentioned about the emotions in the dream and that part
Speaker 6: of the brain being available to us the mad, sad, glad,
Speaker 6: or afraid. If we can narrow our emotions down to that,
Speaker 6: then we can take some action. But how were you feeling?
Speaker 6: If I ask you mad, sad, glad or afraid.
Speaker 2: During the dream or talking about it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, during the dream afraid?
Speaker 6: Afraid?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Probably?
Speaker 6: And do you know what you are afraid of?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Good question.
Speaker 4: I was afraid that I was going to choke on
Speaker 4: the socks, for sure, but I always I.
Speaker 1: Could never do your job, Justina, or I would be
Speaker 1: laughing at everyone.
Speaker 3: I couldn't well.
Speaker 4: And I think I was also just sort of afraid
Speaker 4: of where this was all going.
Speaker 2: You know, what was the point of this retreat?
Speaker 5: Was there confusion in there too?
Speaker 4: Yes, lots of confusion. I was sort of baffled because.
Speaker 6: I feel like confusion is one of the hurdles that
Speaker 6: we have to get over, because confusion leads us to
Speaker 6: more confusion. And I started realizing this with the more
Speaker 6: people I worked with, that it is not a well
Speaker 6: defined emotion. It's not an emotion at all. We get
Speaker 6: confused because I'm afraid and I don't know what's coming next.
Speaker 6: Whereas if I say I'm afraid, right, what am I
Speaker 6: afraid of?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 6: I'm afraid of choking on the socks? The next thing,
Speaker 6: if it were my dream, is that I would want
Speaker 6: to find out is what is that? What are the
Speaker 6: socks representing to me? So if you gave me three
Speaker 6: three descriptive words of socks, what are they dry?
Speaker 2: I would say they are stretchy and fluffy, fluffy?
Speaker 6: And what purpose would you say they they serve.
Speaker 4: Right, they keep your feet healthy and they keep it
Speaker 4: from they protect your feet from you know, well, Katie's
Speaker 4: feeling this right.
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness, are the socks connected to Adam has
Speaker 1: been dealing with plantar fasci itis for months and he's
Speaker 1: been dealing with so many like different variations of sock
Speaker 1: and feet things to protect his foot.
Speaker 2: But it could also be metaphorical.
Speaker 6: Yes, and you know where you were. What kind of
Speaker 6: retreat was it? That was the first thing I heard?
Speaker 2: Oh right, it was like a health and fitness retreat.
Speaker 6: Health and fitness, yes retreat. And so the next thing
Speaker 6: that I'm really interested in is the grandmother, right, So
Speaker 6: what what are the things that you associate with your
Speaker 6: grandmother's house? Just what first comes.
Speaker 2: To my Yeah, liked quiet.
Speaker 6: Which would represent for me a really boost to my
Speaker 6: health if I'm in a sunny, quiet, relaxing place maybe
Speaker 6: and it would be real opposite from my daily life.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 6: Oh, remember how it was at grandmother's house. Maybe I
Speaker 6: need more of this now.
Speaker 4: Right, And I'm being taken away by this sort of
Speaker 4: cult like health retreat that's forcing me to right, oh,
Speaker 4: interesting to sort of eat the thing that protects my
Speaker 4: feet from her getting.
Speaker 6: So to think of it as not sucks at all,
Speaker 6: but the metaphorical language of a sock to me represents
Speaker 6: protection and it's for me. I've had several dreams where
Speaker 6: the protection was for I realized my soul soo ul
Speaker 6: instead of sol e. Dreams love that where they shift.
Speaker 2: Wow, we are brilliant people.
Speaker 6: I know. That's what. I can't believe it.
Speaker 4: I am so much smarter in my dreams than I
Speaker 4: am in my waking life.
Speaker 6: We all are. That is highest intelligence because we are
Speaker 6: not confused by other things that we've been told and
Speaker 6: that we've learned, and our belief system. So the belief
Speaker 6: gets in the way.
Speaker 4: Bob, I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask you
Speaker 4: the details of the dream. Are the details of a
Speaker 4: dream more significant than the emotions? What does the research
Speaker 4: say about that?
Speaker 5: I don't think the research has anything to say about that.
Speaker 5: About what's important, Christina, that was a beautiful presentation and
Speaker 5: I was really impressed by it. And it's working on metaphor,
Speaker 5: and it's working on weak associations that have been somehow
Speaker 5: pulled together. I mean that, as Justina points out, becomes
Speaker 5: useful but even if you don't remember the dream, you're
Speaker 5: gonna wake up and you're gonna say, I need to
Speaker 5: do something about my.
Speaker 6: Feet, right, don't take anything likely. I have in the
Speaker 6: thousands and thousands of dreams that I've worked with with people,
Speaker 6: I have never found one thing in the dream that
Speaker 6: did not have significance. And when you say, oh, I'm
Speaker 6: so smart to be able to create that, even though
Speaker 6: I'd majored in art all of these things, it was
Speaker 6: my dreams that showed me that I am a creative person,
Speaker 6: and I believe we all have that capability.
Speaker 2: Katie, what about your dream? Well, we got to get
Speaker 2: to yours.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, so yeah, I want to hear. So
Speaker 1: here's my dream. My family and I are in Mexico.
Speaker 1: We're in a boat, like a really lovely fishing boat,
Speaker 1: those ones that have the rods sticking out and on
Speaker 1: the white captain's leather fancy chair. So this is like
Speaker 1: a nice boat. Is the director of my son's nursery school.
Speaker 1: He's driving the fishing boat. There are huge swells and
Speaker 1: a hurricane is in the distance and is touching down
Speaker 1: in the water. Yeah, it's the hurricane.
Speaker 3: Was so clear. I am freaking out.
Speaker 1: And the director is so calm in a T shirt,
Speaker 1: lounging back in his captain leather white chair.
Speaker 4: This is the most Katie dream I've ever I could
Speaker 4: ever like create on my own.
Speaker 2: I couldn't write a more Katie dream than this.
Speaker 6: So Katie tell us about Mexico. Oh, what does that
Speaker 6: represent for you?
Speaker 3: Well, we had just gone on a family vacation there, and.
Speaker 6: What was that like? Like great anxiety producing, relaxed anxiety producing?
Speaker 5: Did you ever feel like you weren't in control and
Speaker 5: people who were in control did not know what they
Speaker 5: were doing?
Speaker 1: I felt very out of control the whole time.
Speaker 6: And this guy give us three adjectives.
Speaker 1: He's in his late seventies and he's one of the
Speaker 1: leading experts on early childhood development.
Speaker 3: He's really really confident.
Speaker 1: You know, you trust him, but he's also very opinionated,
Speaker 1: and it's his way or the highway.
Speaker 6: And I have two ways that I can be. Now,
Speaker 6: do you know that part of yourself that is well
Speaker 6: known in their field? Yes, they are confident.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can be that way in some fields.
Speaker 6: So sure, Because we're always balancing these aspects of ourselves,
Speaker 6: it seems like, would you rather be that person. Yes, okay,
Speaker 6: and now to learn to access that. And I love
Speaker 6: that description of the white chair. I would draw that.
Speaker 6: I would buy one and put it in my house
Speaker 6: and sit in it to remind myself that in this
Speaker 6: chair here is that part of myself.
Speaker 1: And and you know, yeah, grounded, calm, unaffected, like not
Speaker 1: easily thrown around by life's waves and tornadoes. Correct, Yes, Adam,
Speaker 1: are you losing your mind right now?
Speaker 3: And how this has been nailed? Bob? What do you
Speaker 3: think did dreams change as we age?
Speaker 5: As we get older, dreams tend to get more pleasant,
Speaker 5: And we don't know whether that's biology talking to us
Speaker 5: or just life smoothing out as we get older. Kids
Speaker 5: kids have lots of animals in their dreams, much more
Speaker 5: than adults do. But you know, and kids imaginative play,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of animals, and you know, they're dolls
Speaker 5: and this and that, and we quote gives those up
Speaker 5: as we become grown up. And so I suspect they
Speaker 5: disappear from our dreams because they've disappeared from our waking life.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, That's I mean?
Speaker 4: Is that why our five year old is constantly waking
Speaker 4: up with these extremely visceral, scary nightmares, and that's not
Speaker 4: something that's a part of our lives in our thirties
Speaker 4: and forties.
Speaker 5: Kids have them more than adults. We don't know why.
Speaker 5: There's no suggestion that having nightmares is itself either pathological
Speaker 5: or indication of other pathologies. They're just bad luck in.
Speaker 1: A way, Bob about stress? Is stress reflected in our dreams?
Speaker 5: Come on, Katie, you know that's your whole dream life.
Speaker 5: Oh yes, everybody in our culture are running crazy. We're
Speaker 5: running twenty four seven. We're under stress. We don't know
Speaker 5: how to deal with all the demands in our lives
Speaker 5: in addition to having individual things that are so stressful.
Speaker 2: I have a follow up for Bob that I just
Speaker 2: I was wondering.
Speaker 4: You were talking about the amount of information that you're
Speaker 4: getting during the day and then how long.
Speaker 2: It takes to process all of that.
Speaker 4: Have you noticed a giant difference in the studies because
Speaker 4: we're all ingesting so much information before we fall asleep,
Speaker 4: you know, like between watching TV and looking at our
Speaker 4: phones and answering emails and texting people and looking at instat.
Speaker 5: So at sleep onset. It says, if our brain is
Speaker 5: in fact cataloging what it needs to work on in
Speaker 5: our dreams that night. And if we interrupt that normal
Speaker 5: process as we're lying in bed falling asleep by tramming
Speaker 5: something of a nature that we would never evolutionarily have seen,
Speaker 5: which is like car crashes and people fighting and screaming
Speaker 5: and jet planes and everything happening. Right, if we don't
Speaker 5: give our brain the chance to do that review of
Speaker 5: a day, then yes, those things influence your dreams, and
Speaker 5: know that's probably not what your brain was trying to
Speaker 5: get to. I worry a lot about the fact that
Speaker 5: we used to spend hours every day doing nothing and
Speaker 5: now we cannot tolerate that.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's terrifying.
Speaker 1: Even in an elevator when you look around, I'd sometimes
Speaker 1: like test myself.
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know.
Speaker 1: What, this entire elevator ride and waiting at the office,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to look at my phone at all.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna sit here and have thoughts and daydream.
Speaker 1: This is where ideas come out of and where I
Speaker 1: can process worries or things like that, and everyone else
Speaker 1: is on the phone.
Speaker 5: You're exactly right, Katie, I think you actually end up
Speaker 5: with a shallower society that people who store away all
Speaker 5: those memories and don't process them. That's the biological role
Speaker 5: of dreaming.
Speaker 4: This has been an absolutely fascinating podcast, and I want
Speaker 4: to thank both of you guys for all of the
Speaker 4: time and energy that you put into this.
Speaker 5: Wh is so much fun, so much fun.
Speaker 6: We're gonna have to do this again, Bob together.
Speaker 4: Yes, you guys should take it on the road. Mind
Speaker 4: blowing episode of Chasing Sleep, Katie.
Speaker 1: And you know what I really feel strongly about is
Speaker 1: I loved keeping the dream Journal, but I was like,
Speaker 1: I mean, of all the things going on in my life,
Speaker 1: really going to keep up with this? And now that
Speaker 1: is a definite yes, right, I mean I I just
Speaker 1: think there was so much to uncover and unpack about
Speaker 1: what I'm currently going through by taking a closer look
Speaker 1: at my dreams.
Speaker 2: Well, we couldn't have had two better guests for this.
Speaker 4: You know what I find to be so interesting is
Speaker 4: that we don't know, you know, we're dreaming or why
Speaker 4: it happens. And they and they confirmed that right right,
Speaker 4: And at the same time, they still had this wealth
Speaker 4: of knowledge about dreams and how to dissect those dreams,
Speaker 4: what questions to ask and how.
Speaker 1: To decipher them, because what we do know about dreaming
Speaker 1: is that understanding your dreams means understanding yourself.
Speaker 2: And this is the thing that's really blew me away.
Speaker 1: It's all metaphorical, like that's what I felt like, kept
Speaker 1: coming up when Justina is asking were you mad, sad,
Speaker 1: glad or afraid? I started on my own making amazing
Speaker 1: connections between my waking life and my dreaming life.
Speaker 4: And two episodes down, and this Chasing Sleep podcast has
Speaker 4: been a dream come true.
Speaker 3: Butt up bub And for our.
Speaker 4: Next episode next week, a topic we know a little
Speaker 4: about sleep and parenting, do we?
Speaker 2: Though I don't know.
Speaker 1: I thought I knew about parenting before I was a parent,
Speaker 1: Now I am not so sure.
Speaker 4: I definitely want to find out how to keep a
Speaker 4: certain five year old in his own bed.
Speaker 3: Same here.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we really want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Go to your podcast player, then rate and review the show.
Speaker 1: We'll read every single one and I'm very sensitive, so
Speaker 1: thank you in advance.
Speaker 4: You can also find us at Shabby Chaps on Instagram
Speaker 4: and KTQ Lowe's on Instagram, and don't forget to follow
Speaker 4: or subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Speaker 1: Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
Speaker 1: in partnership with Mattress Firm.
Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Molly Sosha.
Speaker 4: This show was written and produced by sound At Brands
Speaker 4: Dave Beeson, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rex.
Speaker 1: Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro.
Speaker 1: Until next time, we hope you're living your best while
Speaker 1: sleeping your best.