WEBVTT - Do audiobooks count as reading? (Remastered) 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:01.280 Hey, what's up? 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:03.920 Thing is this week we are running a remastered version 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.840 of our very first episode ever. It's about audiobooks, and 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:08.560 I think it's a pretty fun one. And then make 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:10.520 sure you stick around after the episode to hear us 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:12.440 reflect on how we feel about all of this. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.720 Now, all right on with the show. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:27.960 I'm mammy, I'm Noah. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.560 This is Devin and this is no such thing, the 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.199 show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.440 actually doing the research. Today's argument began with a tweet 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.120 the question do audiobooks count as reading? 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:41.760 I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.400 Do you actually comprehend content the same way when you're 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:45.840 hearing it versus reading it? 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.720 I feel like I forget what I read very quickly. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.560 And lastly, I have a confession to make to a friend. 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.200 I'm gonna tell you something now, Rich, okay, and this 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:56.760 full transparency here. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:02.080 What would you say if I told you. 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:06.960 There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such thank. 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.960 Such thank, no touch thank. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.959 I'll hop in here because I came across a tweet 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.480 that I dropped into the d M S and the 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:25.319 tweet was do audiobooks count as reading, and I just commented, no, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:26.840 so many. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.520 What do you think if someone tells me they read 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:31.920 something but they actually listened to it. I don't feel 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.720 like they're defrauding me or anything like that. I haven't 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.000 listened to many audiobooks, but if I did, I think 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.240 I would be okay telling someone that. If it's the 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.480 end of the year and you're making a list of 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.039 all the books you've read, you would put Prince Harry's 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.000 book on. I would put Prince had you listen to it, 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:48.920 exactly if I had listened to it. 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:54.360 Okay, So you obviously believe that listening to an audiobook 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:55.279 counts as reading. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.160 Yeah, if you know I've listened to the Prince Harry 0:01:58.200 --> 0:01:59.200 You're a Catcher in the Rye. 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.520 That's a book I've read. I know the book. 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.600 Okay. So my goal this year was to read twenty 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:05.720 four books. I didn't read twenty four. I got to 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.200 like twenty twenty one. You're telling me if I listened 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.160 to twenty four audiobooks this year would be the equivalent 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:12.440 of me reading twenty four books. 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.640 Yeah, I would totally accept that. If you were like, 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.920 if you posted that is insane, you posted your listen. 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.720 We're like, here's the twenty four books I read, and 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.520 then we're talking about a semantic issue. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:28.160 No, no, no. The question was do audiobooks count as reading? Yeah? Reading? 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.280 Well, I guess it means what does reading mean to you? 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.880 Reading means to me? What reading? Yeah? 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:34.560 With your eyes? 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:35.200 Yeah, exactly. 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:36.959 It's like, what is the definition of read? 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.280 I think it's a very small view of what reading 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:40.840 really is. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.639 I think it's a very you know, reading is one thing, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:44.880 which is reading. 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:46.480 All right, but these are books. 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.160 Are audio books. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.000 Yeah, but it's the same, it's the same content. Well, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.600 do you think people are obscuring the fact that they 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:55.560 listened to me? 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.760 Yes? This is my whole The real reason I have 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.079 a real issue with this is because I think people 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.200 just need to be honest about how they're consuming media. 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.040 And I think the people who listen to audiobooks and 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.800 want to pretend that they read the books is because 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.240 they are slightly embarrassed that they listen to the book 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.480 and they didn't read it, because otherwise, why won't you 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.880 just say, yeah, I listened to that audiobook. This person 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.600 was clearly asking because she was putting together some sort 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.320 of lists. End of the year she didn't read as 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.560 many books as maybe she felt like she should have 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.920 that year, but she listened to some audio books and 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:30.320 she wanted to add them to the list. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:32.960 So you want people to make two lists, then yeah, well, 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.080 like if I put the guy be honest, it's like, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:36.960 I'm not that interested in seeing any lists. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:38.920 So now it's like you're gonna ask me to look at. 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.480 Two I'm not saying that, right, Like you can make 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.520 one list and say here's the things I read and 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:47.480 listen to this year. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:50.960 So I think a question for Devin here is what 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.120 is it about the act of reading that you feel 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:58.400 is more valuable than listening to an audiobook? 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.080 What is the difference between reading and like listening to 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:03.480 an audiobook? Is that like I can't read and walk 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.160 my dog at the same time, right, I can't read. 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.400 Day, But would you if you could? I mean, yeah, 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:13.200 if I could, I would I mean or like very agile. 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.120 But it's like we talked about this the other day. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.880 People don't read books. Reading is not an easy thing 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.440 to do, like making time for reading, especially now having 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.159 the intention span to read. And I think you know, 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.080 rightfully or wrong, for like people look at people who 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.120 read a lot of books in a different light than 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.479 someone who may read one book a year. Right, Like 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.080 saying I read one hundred books this year is very 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.839 different than I listened to one hundred audiobooks every morning. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.599 I listened to let's say two hours of like between 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.160 like NPR and w NYC and like the daily Right. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:46.680 So if I said, okay, I'm not going to do 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.200 that every day, I'm just gonna make those audio books, 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.599 I can get through a lot of audio books any year. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.800 So basically this is like a work ethic thing. 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:56.880 I mean, yeah, you're looking at it as a time inagine. 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.360 I mean I I do listen to the occasional audiobook, Okay, 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.920 I mostly read books, Yeah, you know, in your definition 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:07.440 physical paperback books. 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:08.400 I'm looking with my eyes. 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.840 It now feels like such a brave thing to say, Like, 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.520 I do listen occasionally. 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:13.120 I keep a. 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.200 List just so I can look at what I've read 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.160 this here, okay, on that list, And I can look 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.000 at that list and I don't mark off the difference. 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.200 You know which ones you read, yeah, and you know 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.080 which ones you listen to. 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.520 So Devin is making a point about like transparency and honesty. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.160 But another question around this is like, whether you're reading 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.000 or listening, do you feel like the information is being 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:37.680 retained in the same way. For example, if Noah listened 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.120 to Killers of the Flower Moon and Devin read it, 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.680 do you feel like you're coming away with such a 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:44.719 different experience. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.520 So I don't think like because I read a book 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.240 and Noah listened to a book, that means that I 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.920 necessarily have like retain the information better. I just think 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.359 it's like probably processed in a way that's different. But 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.880 I also like, there's there's books that I read that 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.840 I don't remember very well. Like I sent y'all that 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.159 TikTok the other day about that woman talking about like 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.320 reading the book and then like instantly forgetting. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.000 Am I the only person who read a book loved 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.800 the book? In about seventy two hours, You'd have forgot 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.200 everything that happened in the damn book. And that's why 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.360 my friends be thinking that I'd just be skimming through 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.880 the pages because they fuck want to ask me about 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:21.279 a book. 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.200 I cann't tell you what the fuck happened in that book. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.159 And if like there's some stuff that I read just 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.359 like for fun that I'm not paying that close attention 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.000 to like that happens, and I instantly forget what happens. 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.479 And there's like some audio stuff that like I'll be 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.200 listening to that, like maybe I'm paying a bit more 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.600 attention to like of this American Life episode where I'll 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.320 be able to retain more information. So I don't know. 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.080 I think that's a long way of saying I think 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.279 it depends. I don't think like necessarily reading or listening 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.480 to something means you're going to retain the information better. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:50.680 It can go both ways. 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.760 Like I've read books and then reread them and then 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:54.680 just you know, whether it's just the mood you're in 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:56.640 when you're doing that or whatever, you might just be 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.120 able to absorb the information better, whether it's just like 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.880 you're in a different heads. And then there's also books 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.120 that like I've done both at the same time, where 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.120 like I'll have the physical copy, but then I'll have 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.000 the audiobook on my phone. Yeah, Like I remember doing 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.120 that with the Oppenheimer biography. 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.120 Oh wow, we had a conversation where Rich about it. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.360 For context, Rich is a friend of ours we used 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:20.840 to work with. 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.160 I just want to reveal on the podcast here that 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.720 you didn't say I listened also listened to the audiobook. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:26.760 Yeah, that's me. 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.920 Well, I'm speaking my truth. That's because that's how I feel. 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:30.920 It's it's the same thing. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.440 The conversation was literally about how he couldn't get through 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:34.800 reading the book. 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.320 I don't know what his habits are like, maybe he 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.640 reads two books a year. I read a lot of books. 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:41.280 I read. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.800 That exact conversation is my issue with people who want 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.840 to claim that they read audiobooks. It's like one man 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.960 is saying, Wow, it's really hard for me to get 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.000 through reading this book, and you're like, yeah, it was 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:54.640 kind of easy for me. I didn't like to read. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.760 Well, I didn't brag about it. He asked me how 0:07:58.760 --> 0:07:59.200 long it took. 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.160 I gave him an answer or a time about some 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.960 very important information, which is you listen to half of it? 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.160 Yeah, well I know every fact in there, so. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.160 I'm not saying, you know, once again, it's not about comprehension. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:12.800 To me, it is about comprehension. 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.280 We keep going back to this where it's like you're 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.480 talking about people being worried about how they're going to 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:18.040 be perceived. 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.360 Yes, right, that's kind of what this is actually about it. 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.160 And this is about people's so it just depends on 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.440 how you want to present publicly. I guess I don't 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.720 think in that moment with Rich for example, I wasn't 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:29.480 being self conscious. 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.760 I just wasn't thinking about it. I was beyond being 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:33.520 self conscious. 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.120 I was on a different plane. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.360 It was not even a thought in my head to 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.200 mention it because it's irrelevant to me. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.120 Just to distill the argument a little bit here, basically, Devin, 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.600 you feel like people are self conscious about this because 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.800 they feel like listening to an audiobook is not as 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.640 prestigious as reading a book. 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.120 You got to see what's important to you. It's like 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.160 a challenge for me to like find time to read. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.439 To me, there's something I don't know, still sacred about 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.000 getting outside of the sort of digital world we live 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.959 in to read words on a page. Well, like you 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.679 didn't ask Noah how he feels about it about do 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.360 you think reading is more sacred than listening to an audiobook? 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.280 I can't say necessarily, I think that. Like I think 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.440 if you if you're actually focusing on the words and 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.160 focusing on listening to it, you could still have the 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.720 same experience, are a very similar experience, if not the 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.280 same one, but as far as comprehending and connecting with it. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.080 I think generally you could even even something that is 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.960 like maybe on a more sentence by sentence level kind 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.079 of that more literary sort of thing. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.920 And to play Noah's Advocate a little bit, you know, 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.280 at least like like the passing of information via word 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.720 of mouth, like that's long before books and writing, Like 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:55.040 that's an ancient tradition. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.160 That's right, I ever heard of the odysseed of him? 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.840 What do you personally think, though you said, I'm at 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.280 the end of the year, if you read ten books 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:08.840 versus listening to ten audiobooks, what you think is more 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:09.720 valuable reading? 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:11.360 Okay, reading with us? 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:15.200 We can look, we can look. I think there's I 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.280 think the thing here, right is that we all want 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:18.920 to pretend like audio books are. 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.400 I mean again, it's like what we say is valuable. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.000 That's what I would That's what I would prefer, and 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.440 that's how I would get the most out of these 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:26.280 books for me. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.960 But I think this is that classic sort of like 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.880 everyone wants, you know, like we all want to pretend 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.240 to be like inclusive and blah blah blah. 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:36.960 That's what I'm doing. 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.559 But it comes down to it. It's like, well, me, personally, 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.920 I prefer to read. But like if you want to say, 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:46.000 like audiobooks is reading good for you. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.120 You're saying I'm being too woke. 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:49.640 Yeah, I think I think that basically. 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:51.960 Think it's like people observe these things differently. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.400 Agree. Yeah, just own the way you're absorbing it, Like 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.880 if you're listening to an audiobook, just be upfront about it. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:06.280 So Devon's main concern is more about the presentation of 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.760 it all. He thinks people are embarrassed to admit that 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.160 they listen to books because it's quote unquote easier than reading. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:13.920 So we're going to do a couple things now. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:15.880 We're going to do a test to see how reading 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.880 stacks up versus listening as far as retaining information, and 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:20.400 I'm going to try to talk to an expert about 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:21.080 all of this stuff. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.760 All right, we're back. I'm Noah Manny Devin. Last time we. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.880 Spoke, we were arguing about whether or not audiobooks count 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:34.440 as reading. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.920 So we just really quickly say where we stand. 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:39.960 Devin, why don't you say where you stand? 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.560 Audiobooks do not count as reading, they count as listening 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.439 to audiobooks. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.559 And to me, they're the same, you get all the 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:49.320 same stuff out of them, so it's reading to me. 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:50.920 Then, I remember, what do you use stand on this? 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:51.040 Man? 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.400 I remember being kind of agnostic. 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:53.840 I think. 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.120 So what we've done since then is I wanted to 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.240 get some real answers on this. I reached out to 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.320 an expert on the issue. I wanted to find out 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.440 how reading comprehension is actually studied and what differences there 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:04.800 are between reading and listening. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.760 My name is Virginia Clinton LaSelle. I'm an associate professor 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.599 of Educational Foundations and Research at the University of North Dakota, 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:20.719 and I specialize in digital reading and flexible reading modalities. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.600 She published a meta analysis a few years ago looking 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.640 at forty six different reading versus listening studies, oh with 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:28.840 over forty six hundred participants, so she's kind of the 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.000 perfect person to ask about this. She had an interesting 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.559 motivation for why she started the study to begin with. 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.480 I will say my motivation for this study was I 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:40.800 was in a book club on campus and somebody very 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:46.120 sheepishly sad, I've been listening to the audiobook. Oh I'm sorry, like, 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.840 and I've been doing so much driving. 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:50.319 It just worked better. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.599 And I remember just thinking, why are you so embarrassed 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:58.080 about that? We're all busy academics. We're doing something extra, 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.040 you know, you're meeting a talking about it and contribute in. 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.240 I've learned something. After that, after that SoundBite, I'm on, 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.520 if you're in a book reaction, Like I'm like, Okay, 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:16.960 I don't care what you call it, I honestly don't. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.080 You're in a book club the whole point of a book. 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.559 But if she's able to come and actually say things, 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:24.560 I mean, it's like what differences I get, like the 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:30.040 information relaying, but that feels like a book club feels 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.280 like kind of a sacred act. Yeah, but I guess 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.240 the point is like if she hadn't said that, would 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.960 the other people in the group even know? Like what 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.800 are you in the book club for? Because you all 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.840 read these pages or because you're reading this book together 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.960 and learning about the story or whatever. It's like, if 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:47.640 you're able to talk about it, then it doesn't. 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.600 View twofold right, Like the book club holds you like 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.240 accountable for Okay, I'm going to have to finish this 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:57.880 thing because I'm gonna have to go and talk to 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.320 people about it. So it forces you to make time 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.920 to read the book to your point, I think in 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:07.080 terms of the discussions, sure, I don't care if you've 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.000 you know, like I can talk to I could talk 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.000 to someone about a book if I've read it and 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:12.760 they've listened to it. I'm not they'll be like, I'm sorry, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.720 I only speak to people who have read the book. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.439 Yeah, you're not, like the book club goes. It doesn't 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.600 go any differently if you listen or read it, but 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.040 it just feels like a weird for whatever reason, that 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.360 struck me as like wow, in a book club. 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:25.720 Yeah. 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.280 I asked her what these experiments typically look like, and 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.280 it's pretty simple. The participants will read or listen to 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.640 a selected text. Sometimes there will be different parameters, like 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.000 you have thirty minutes to do it, or it'll kind 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:38.480 of shift you through one phrase at a time to 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.920 keep you at a certain pace, and then you'll answer 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.680 multiple choice questions or do something like write down everything 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.640 you remember. So there's a variance there as far as 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.560 how difficult the testing is, whether it's looking for simple 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.200 stuff or kind of taking the next step in inferring 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.320 and applying more knowledge to it. It'd typically be something 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.560 where one group reads something one week and then they 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.400 come back the next week and listen to something, so 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.520 you can compare the same people's scores and each Anyway, 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.160 we did our own small version of that. Now, obviously 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.280 it's a real study. Wouldn't just be me listening versus 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.280 Devin reading. It would be us doing both of them 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.040 and then testing. But this is more to prove a 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.360 point and to be petty. So we just did a 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.280 simple one like this. We both read a short story 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.360 called The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, and then we took 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.240 a short I think it's definitely like for a high 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:28.080 school class. Okay, multiple choice, multiple choice questionnaire on it. 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.800 So I think we should start with Devin's score. 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.560 Okay, Yeah, So Devin read read the story using a 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.200 visual modality. 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.200 So I got one wrong. 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:41.400 Wow, that's pretty good. 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.120 Okay, So what my score was? Eight? He got one wrong, 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.360 one wrong, So I got a ninety five. That's great. 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.920 Wow, starts that's strong, a strong start. No, how did 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:52.760 you do on your test? 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:57.840 Well, I got I read the book using a you know, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:03.200 auditory modality, and I got an eighty nine percent two 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:03.880 questions wrong. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:06.320 Yeah, only two. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.520 So it's kind of the arbiter here. I think it 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.440 does mean something that Devin got one more question right 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:17.400 than Noah. However, I'm I'm thinking like one question to me. 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.520 I don't know if I can attribute that to like 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:25.600 reading being that much better of a method of information, which. 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.520 He might just be smarter, Trevn might just be built different. 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.920 We have not thought about that this specific time. 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.360 I don't know if this the results, like stats wise, 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.280 Devin wins, but I just don't know if I can 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:41.720 really say which which mode is retaining the information better 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:42.360 than the other one. 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.600 So I asked doctor Clinton Lassell to explain what's going 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:46.880 on in your brain when you're reading. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.360 There's two processes that are going on in our brain 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.320 in what's called the simple view of reading. They're stea coding, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.360 where you look at the text and you're able to 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.480 determine what those words are, so you can see the word, 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.760 the thch the letters, and then you know that means 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:12.160 the And then there's the comprehension aspect, where you're taking 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.840 the meaning from the text and creating an idea of 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.040 what the whole text is about. That's called a mental 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:24.200 representation of the text, and that requires things like vocabulary 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.159 and background knowledge and making connections from one idea to 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:28.760 the next. 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.440 So that kind of lays out the two step process 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.240 that goes on when you're taking in a text. I asked, 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.800 you know the big question, which is what's the difference 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.360 comprehension wise between reading versus listening. 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:44.800 They're honestly not that different. Obviously, the decoding process isn't there. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.359 You're not having to look at words and figure out 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:54.080 what those letters mean, but instead you're listening and you 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.920 have to figure out those sounds make words. Now, because 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.480 we learned how to listen from infant see, but we 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.160 learned how to read a little bit later in our lives, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:09.040 we forget that that listening process actually takes brain power 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.000 and actually takes efforts. So I think that's why a 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.919 lot of times there's this misconception that listening to an 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.800 audiobook is cheating or it's not really reading a book 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:26.920 or learning about content area, and that just doesn't seem 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.520 to be the case. Definitely, when it comes to memory 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.960 for what you read, there's really no difference between an 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:38.480 audiobook and a visual book. 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:40.480 So you heard it there. 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.560 Reading and listening are actually very similar, but listening is 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.480 so much more natural to us since we've been doing 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.399