1
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: This is Mesters in Business with Very Results on Bloomberg Radio.

2
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest.

3
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 1: His name is Mark Jenkins. He's the head of Global

4
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,119
Speaker 1: Credit at Carlisle Group, which runs about three one billion

5
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: dollars in assets. Mark manages about seventy three billion dollars

6
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,440
Speaker 1: in credit assets. He has a fascinating career doing all

7
00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,760
Speaker 1: sorts of work across the credit universe, and there aren't

8
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: very many people as knowledgeable as he is, uh in

9
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 1: as many types of fixed income and credit investing as

10
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,599
Speaker 1: he is, whether it's aviation, real estate, liquid a liquid,

11
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:54,360
Speaker 1: private investments, um, distressed assets, really across the board. His

12
00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:02,960
Speaker 1: focus on alternative credit assets is quite comprehensive. Carlyle is

13
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 1: one of the fastest growing credit shops and private equity

14
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,639
Speaker 1: shops out there. They're probably traded and I just found

15
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,960
Speaker 1: this to be a master class in how to put

16
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,759
Speaker 1: capital at risk when you can't get a whole lot

17
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,759
Speaker 1: more than one and a half two percent and fixed

18
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,240
Speaker 1: income but you don't want to see the same sort

19
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,040
Speaker 1: of volatility and risk that you see in equity. What's

20
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,039
Speaker 1: the sweet spot in between the two? Really just an

21
00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating conversation and I learned a lot and I

22
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 1: think you will also with no further ado, my conversation

23
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 1: with Carlisle Groups Mark Jenkins. This is Masters in Business

24
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 1: with Very Redults on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guest

25
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: this week is Mark Jenkins. He is the Managing Director

26
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 1: and Head of Global Credit at Carlyle uh, the private

27
00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 1: credit and investing giant with over three billion dollars in

28
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 1: assets under management. As head of the Global Credit Desk

29
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 1: at Carlisle, Mark overseas seventy three billion dollars in assets

30
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 1: under management. Previously, he led the Canada Pension Plan Investment

31
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 1: Boards Global Private Investment Group, and prior to that, he

32
00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,840
Speaker 1: was at Barclays, where he was Managing director and co

33
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 1: head of Leverage Finance. Mark Jenkins, Welcome to bloom bark Berry.

34
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited about this.

35
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 1: This is an area that I don't think people understand

36
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 1: or or hear enough about. It's usually all day long

37
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,399
Speaker 1: equities and I'm I'm excited to talk a little bit

38
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,800
Speaker 1: about the various types of credit you manage. But before

39
00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 1: we do that, let's get into your background a little bit.

40
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: You attended Queen's University in Canada, where you earned a

41
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 1: commerce degree. How does that translate into an interest in

42
00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,680
Speaker 1: credit and investing? Yeah, sure, Verry, I think you know,

43
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,200
Speaker 1: when I grew up, I grew up in a town

44
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 1: called Ashwood, just outside of Toronto, and um, you know,

45
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 1: growing up, I didn't really have uh, any influences that

46
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,239
Speaker 1: were in the business side, and so as I was

47
00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 1: kind of progressing through my childhood and through high school,

48
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 1: I sort of was very interested in commerce and how

49
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,079
Speaker 1: that works. So, you know, my first job really was

50
00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 1: working at a corner store where I used to stack

51
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,080
Speaker 1: what we would affectionately call in Canada pop bottles, but

52
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,800
Speaker 1: you called soda bottles that if you're in Minnesota, you

53
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 1: might calm pop bottles as well. And I used to

54
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: sweep out the parking lot as well. That was sort

55
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,080
Speaker 1: of my first job at thirteen, and I was very

56
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 1: interested in how that gentleman ran that store. And my

57
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 1: brother in law actually ran a small lumber yard in

58
00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 1: town that I worked at as well, and so I

59
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 1: was very very interested in how business has worked, you know,

60
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,680
Speaker 1: how that operationally worked, not just the actual element of

61
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,360
Speaker 1: working at them. And so I kind of looked at

62
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 1: people who had progressed into business, and most of them

63
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 1: in Canada at least had commerce degrees. So that's how

64
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 1: I went to Queen's Commerce. And you come out of school,

65
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,600
Speaker 1: you end up at Goldman Sachs prety early in your career, right, Yeah,

66
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 1: Actually it took a bit of a short stop first.

67
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: So I um, back in the day when I was

68
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,960
Speaker 1: sort of again trying to explore how to get into business,

69
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 1: I noticed a lot of chief financial officers in Canada

70
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 1: had a c p A or back then as c A,

71
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 1: and so I actually spent two years at Cooper's and

72
00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: librand working on my CEA. In Canada, you have to

73
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,720
Speaker 1: intern at a at an accounting firm, so I worked

74
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 1: there in corporate audit and business investigations, which basically back

75
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,280
Speaker 1: in did a lot of the bankruptcies in real estate.

76
00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,920
Speaker 1: So in fact, one of my early experiences was working

77
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,000
Speaker 1: on the Olympian York bankruptcy with the Reichman brothers. So

78
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 1: so I have to imagine that's a useful set of

79
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 1: skills to have when you're trying to decide, hey, am

80
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 1: I going to see a return of capital as well

81
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,839
Speaker 1: as return on capital? For this particular credit. Yeah, it's

82
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,720
Speaker 1: it's certainly taught me how to understand, like how you're

83
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,160
Speaker 1: gonna get your capital back if you will. I think that,

84
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: you know that. I think my early formative years in

85
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 1: terms of business was one of skepticism because eighty nine

86
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 1: ninety was, at least in Canada was going through large,

87
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, recession, predominantly in real estate. Owen Y had

88
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 1: overextended itself building out in Canary Wharf at the time.

89
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 1: I recall cross collateralization. I was kept from all the banks,

90
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,920
Speaker 1: of course, which was part of what we discovered. And

91
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: I think my formative years was started with a lot

92
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,320
Speaker 1: of skepticism, which probably led me into credit as a result.

93
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,800
Speaker 1: So so from Cooper's and libraries and and accounting, how

94
00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,040
Speaker 1: do you make your way to fixed income and Goldman? Yeah? Sure,

95
00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 1: well I I realized that the accounting profession, probably long term,

96
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 1: wasn't going to be for me, and most people would

97
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,720
Speaker 1: move on to something different. I had some friends who

98
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,400
Speaker 1: worked over Golden Sacks, which frankly I didn't know a

99
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,920
Speaker 1: lot about at the time. I walked across the street

100
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,280
Speaker 1: in Toronto, ended up working there and initially in um

101
00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,240
Speaker 1: in controllers, but eventually worked my way into being a

102
00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 1: credit analyst there. Uh, and you know, very shortly thereafter,

103
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: I moved down to New York and spent actually most

104
00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,360
Speaker 1: of my career in New York working for Goldman uh

105
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,440
Speaker 1: and always on the credit side. So Goldman and then

106
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: you end up at Barclays where you were co head

107
00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,720
Speaker 1: of leverage product that that sounds like that's an aggressive portfolio,

108
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,279
Speaker 1: is it what it sounds like? Yeah, I you know,

109
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 1: I'd spent over eleven years of Goldman. I learned a

110
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of that organization as it you know, transferred

111
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,160
Speaker 1: from transformed from basically being a partnership into a corporate

112
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: uh and all the changes that go with it. But

113
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 1: it was an extraordinarily um fertile time for me in

114
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,920
Speaker 1: terms of growth and development, in terms of just being

115
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: very entrepreneurial and commercial. And I love that aspect of it.

116
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,720
Speaker 1: But Barkley's a couple of my friends had left Goldman

117
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,240
Speaker 1: to start up the leverage finance business there, and it

118
00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,000
Speaker 1: really for me, it was it was an opportunity to

119
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 1: learn how to build a business. I was, you know,

120
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 1: spent all my years doing very highly structured transactions on

121
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: the credit side, being a credit analyst, et cetera. But

122
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,159
Speaker 1: really what I hadn't learned as the business side of it,

123
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 1: and that was a great, you know, formative time for me,

124
00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,640
Speaker 1: which which kind of led me into my next move,

125
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 1: which Canadian Pension Plan, which just sounds very different than

126
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,760
Speaker 1: prior experience. Yeah, very different, but but similar in that

127
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: you know, um, my former boss used to joke when

128
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 1: you hired me that basically I was joining a hundred

129
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 1: billion dollar startup because the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board,

130
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: in fact is manages what you would think of as

131
00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 1: in the U S terms excess contributions to social security

132
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,440
Speaker 1: if there was such a thing, which there isn't, um,

133
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 1: but but that's effectively what you're doing. You're managing those

134
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 1: excess contributions to the Canada Pension Plan. And for me,

135
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,840
Speaker 1: it gave me the ability to take all the knowledge

136
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 1: I learned on the credit side, the business building opportunities,

137
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 1: and transform that into a private credit UM direct private

138
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 1: credit investment platform for c p p I B and

139
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 1: later you know, as I progressed their stayed there. I

140
00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 1: guess if I ended up running private investments which include

141
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 1: a private equity, infrastructure credit, energy credit, and some other assets.

142
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,119
Speaker 1: But jen Away, I'm I'm a practitioner in the credit side.

143
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 1: So when I was doing my research into your background,

144
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 1: you have family members who were investment investors and pensioners

145
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 1: into the Canadian pension Plan. How did that, police, teachers, pensioners,

146
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 1: things like that. Did that impact how you thought about

147
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 1: doing your job? For sure? For sure? I think that

148
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: the greatest takeaway from me, and I take that to

149
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 1: my job today is like, I know who you work

150
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 1: for and for me of a ninety one year old

151
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,840
Speaker 1: mother and she would say to me every week when

152
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,199
Speaker 1: I talked to her, how are we doing? Because it's

153
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 1: her money, right And so my my my mother, my

154
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 1: brothers are about eighteen years older than me, so they

155
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 1: take the Canadian pension Plan right now as well and

156
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,319
Speaker 1: my sister, so they're all beneficiaries of that. And and

157
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,959
Speaker 1: on top of that, my brother and my other brother

158
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,439
Speaker 1: they're both were one with a teacher, one with the policeman,

159
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: so they also benefit from the Ontario Municipal Employee retirement

160
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,959
Speaker 1: Plan and Ontario teachers pension plans. So they're all beneficiaries

161
00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: of these large pension plans in Canada. And I think

162
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:04,680
Speaker 1: what it what it really did. Has made it real,

163
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 1: made it real for me in terms of the money

164
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 1: that I was investing the sacred trust were literally nineteen

165
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 1: million people are giving you money to invest on their

166
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,719
Speaker 1: behalf is a sacred trust. And so I used to

167
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,360
Speaker 1: say to the team at c P P I B

168
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,440
Speaker 1: that that's a special place to be and that has

169
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 1: a higher duty of care in my mind, because think

170
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 1: about if you lose twenty million dollars, that's like the

171
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: entire city of Peterborough contributing to CPP for a year.

172
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 1: So that really puts things in perspective. And and I've

173
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 1: taken that with me now because now I work on

174
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 1: behalf of many beneficiaries and fiduciaries across the globe and

175
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 1: I and I do still think it's a sacred trust

176
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 1: and it's a privilege to manage money. Huh. Quite quite fascinating.

177
00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,480
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about credit and fixed income

178
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,199
Speaker 1: side for your career. What what led you to make

179
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 1: that leap from from a credit analyst and a fixed

180
00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:05,280
Speaker 1: income analy us to actually managing credit portfolios. Yeah, Barry,

181
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, when I think about just being in credit generally,

182
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 1: people ask me that all the time, and I look

183
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,480
Speaker 1: back and my my my not illustrious sporting career, which

184
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,320
Speaker 1: was you know, soccer hockey, and I always played defense,

185
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,559
Speaker 1: so I never really played on the offense. I was

186
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 1: always trying to keep the puck or the ball out

187
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 1: of the net and helping people do that. And I

188
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,959
Speaker 1: think when you you think about credit, what you're looking

189
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 1: to do is there's a contract between me and you,

190
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,120
Speaker 1: and I give you some money, and at the end

191
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,480
Speaker 1: of that term of the contract, you give me the

192
00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 1: money back. That's that's defense I'm not looking for. We're

193
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,000
Speaker 1: not looking for massive upside that you you know, shoot

194
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 1: the lights out on the equity side. And so it

195
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 1: always seemed to be very much a comfort zone for

196
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 1: me that I could operate in an area where I

197
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,800
Speaker 1: could understand what was going to allow me to get

198
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 1: my money back at the end of the day. And

199
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: all that training at Goldman had taught me as a

200
00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,720
Speaker 1: credit analyst, that's what I was always thinking about, is

201
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 1: how will this obligore give us the money back at

202
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 1: the end of the day, so that you know we're

203
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,400
Speaker 1: in a good position and we're minimizing our credit risks.

204
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 1: I think the other thing that Goldman really taught me

205
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 1: was how to mitigate risk and downside and really focus

206
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,439
Speaker 1: on the downside and a lot of situations. And so

207
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,960
Speaker 1: coming at investing from that perspective naturally led me to

208
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 1: a better credit hat than it ever did equity. And

209
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 1: in fact I did run equity private equity at at

210
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,600
Speaker 1: c P P I B. I think I was okay

211
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 1: at it, but I definitely majored in in credit. UM.

212
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,160
Speaker 1: So that's the path I pursued and and it's been

213
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 1: it's been fruitful, and I really find it fascinating. I

214
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 1: know I'm a credit geek. If you will, you know,

215
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm intrigued. I love the soccer hockey metaphor. I have

216
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,040
Speaker 1: a friend who's fond of saying a bad year in

217
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 1: fixed income is a bad afternoon and equity and and

218
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,320
Speaker 1: it's really kind of true. What's the worst year? High

219
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,280
Speaker 1: quality fixed income has not not that bad because of

220
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 1: that return on of capital. Yeah, And I you know,

221
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 1: I think for anybody who manages the portfolio and getting

222
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 1: back to that, you know, managing large portfolios at a

223
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 1: place like CPP I B, as you recognize we're just

224
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 1: like one exposure in somebody's broad portfolio. So you've got

225
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 1: to think about what you're meant to deliver into that portfolio,

226
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 1: and that is a very stable, persistent return three cycles.

227
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 1: And that's to me what credit encapsulates from an investor standpoint. So,

228
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 1: so let's talk about some of those different silos of capital.

229
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:28,240
Speaker 1: You have a couple of different credit segments liquid credit,

230
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,600
Speaker 1: a liquid credit, real estate assets. Am I missing any

231
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 1: or no, that's it. Those covers the big three. So

232
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 1: break those down for us if you would. Yeah, So

233
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 1: what we wanted to do and from my experience on

234
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,640
Speaker 1: the other side and experience that these other organizations was

235
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,679
Speaker 1: explaining credit which isn't really a monolithic asset class like

236
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 1: it has a range of exposures and a range of

237
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 1: expected outcomes you know through time that we really wanted

238
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 1: to be able to deliver two investors that range of

239
00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,360
Speaker 1: risk return outcomes. Right. And so if you think about,

240
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,679
Speaker 1: you know, non investment grade credit, you go from leverage

241
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 1: liquid loans clos which is the liquid credit side of things,

242
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,680
Speaker 1: to direct lending, to opportunistic credit, to distress which is

243
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 1: really private or a liquid credit because it doesn't trade.

244
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,719
Speaker 1: And then there's real asset credit, which involves assets like

245
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:25,040
Speaker 1: real estate infrastructure in our case, aircraft aviation where the

246
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,199
Speaker 1: underlying security and cash floads are determined on herd assets

247
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 1: and all of those from ourn investor's perspective, allow you

248
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 1: to um put together a portfolio that is diverse away

249
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,319
Speaker 1: from just single name credit. And I think that's what

250
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,319
Speaker 1: people like on the institutional side. I know that from experience,

251
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,120
Speaker 1: that's what we look to do in my portfolio, my

252
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,840
Speaker 1: former life, and that what people are doing today. So

253
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,960
Speaker 1: that was point one. We wanted to be relevant to

254
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,720
Speaker 1: our customer, if you want to call them that the investor.

255
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 1: Number two, we've got to be relevant to the user

256
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 1: capital right like it's by having a platform approach which

257
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 1: really kind of covers that span, that broad span. We

258
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: can be relevant to almost any borrower in the world

259
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: for whatever they want to do. Right So they may

260
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,080
Speaker 1: have some real estate, they may have ongoing cash flow loans,

261
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 1: but you can put them together and you can deliver

262
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 1: an opportunity. Why is important because it allows us to

263
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: have the widest funnel from an origination standpoint that we

264
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,880
Speaker 1: can and leverage that car Carlisle network where we're operating

265
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 1: on a global basis. So that's that's really those three

266
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 1: verticals really feed into what we're trying to accomplish from

267
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 1: a platform perspective, So I understand real estate obviously is

268
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,520
Speaker 1: gonna be collateral in that space. When you talk about

269
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,120
Speaker 1: hard assets and aviation, you're referring to the actual aircraft.

270
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 1: To the actual aircraft, I mean, the actual metal in

271
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 1: the sky only has value to the extent you have

272
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,840
Speaker 1: a contract to lease it out. So it's not it's

273
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 1: not just enough to have the airplanes. What's as important

274
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: is to have the relationships with the D and ten

275
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 1: plus airlines that we do on a global basis in

276
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,040
Speaker 1: some a D plus countries around the world, so we

277
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 1: have that diversity and maintaining that long term contracts. So

278
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 1: through this period of time which a lot of people

279
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 1: would say, geez, it must have been a really tough

280
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 1: time in global aircraft, which it has been. You know,

281
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 1: we've been able to take advantage of restructuring and turning

282
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 1: out our long term leases, which is good, gives us

283
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 1: lots of optionality, but also take in more aircraft. So

284
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: we've now actually risen from being I think it's the

285
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,560
Speaker 1: fifteenth largest lesser in the world to the sixth largest

286
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,080
Speaker 1: lesser in the world. As long as we close on Manchester,

287
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 1: which was announced just before Christmas, So so we really

288
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 1: leaned into something where the metal in the sky is relevant,

289
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 1: but as relevant is are the long term contracts that

290
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 1: you have with the with the airlines, and so essentially

291
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 1: you're making a bet that we will eventually return to normal,

292
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 1: travel will recover and and people will move about the

293
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 1: country as they were the world as they as they

294
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,520
Speaker 1: were pre pandemic. Yeah, at a macro level, at solutely,

295
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,520
Speaker 1: I think that's true. I think the the other thing

296
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 1: I would layer into that is there has been a

297
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,240
Speaker 1: shift in terms of the older aircraft that have been retired,

298
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 1: so that the actual inventory has shrunk and the actual

299
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 1: O E M s Airbus and Boeing have actually shrunk

300
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,600
Speaker 1: the number of planes a producing. So there is there's

301
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 1: another technical factor going that you're having old aircraft retired

302
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 1: because they're not economical to fly, and you have the

303
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: O E M slowing down, so actually makes our midlife

304
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 1: aircraft much more valuable. If you're trying to have a

305
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 1: very economical asset in the sky to fly from, it

306
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 1: makes sense you can strain supply with the same demand.

307
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 1: Prices are going to go up, So so let's focus

308
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 1: within the ill liquid credit silo. Tell us a little

309
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: bit about private credit, because I want to hear that phrase.

310
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 1: I tend to think of merchant banking and the sort

311
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 1: of mid level bank services that Wall Street has sort

312
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 1: of grown out of and only focuses on the largest companies.

313
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: But there is a lot of you know, really substantial

314
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 1: amount of UM firms and activity in that space. It

315
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 1: just doesn't seem to scale to public Wall Street activity. Yeah, Well,

316
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 1: a little bit of history, I guess it is probably worthwhile.

317
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 1: If you went back to oh eight oh nine, which

318
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 1: you know, I was fortunate enough to be in the

319
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,120
Speaker 1: credit markets, sent to to to work through that, which

320
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 1: was very, very interesting. What you found is the banks

321
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 1: had already started to retrench from the lending market. I

322
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,400
Speaker 1: mean that in fact, it started well before oh eight

323
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: o nine, and then late nineties more or less uh

324
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: in the institutional market, specifically on the loan side, started

325
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,680
Speaker 1: to increase. And if you went from eight o eight

326
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,679
Speaker 1: oh nine to call it twenty if you saw the

327
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 1: amount of credit inventory that banks were carrying to today,

328
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 1: that's down, you know, And I put it in simple terms,

329
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 1: is there no longer um They no longer hold inventory

330
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 1: they're shippers at the risk right and in that void

331
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 1: if you will. You had a couple of other things happening. One,

332
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 1: you've got a thirty year decline in absolute interest rates,

333
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 1: which we've all observed. And um, you've seen a rotation

334
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,399
Speaker 1: as a result of that of these larger institutional funds

335
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 1: that have to make returns that are in the high

336
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 1: single digits rotate into a liquid assets. The first phase

337
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 1: of that that was in private equity. People looked and said,

338
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 1: I can pick up five hundred extra basis points on

339
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,719
Speaker 1: average if I go into private equity, plus or minus

340
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: a hundred here or there, and I don't want to

341
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,120
Speaker 1: be exact on that, but just approximate, and they made

342
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: that rotation. That happened coming out of O eight oh nine,

343
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 1: and we've seen that progression. The next wave is people

344
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 1: who are in fixed income who are picking up two

345
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 1: three in corporate bonds and rotating to the extent they

346
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 1: can allow themselves to be more eliquid, picking up a

347
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 1: hundred two hundred fifty basis points by going into privates.

348
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,959
Speaker 1: Now it's not obviously without risk because you want liquidity,

349
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 1: but I think oh eight O nine showed us that

350
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 1: you may be over paying for liquidity because I lived

351
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,680
Speaker 1: through that period of time and what you could sell

352
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 1: was the best high quality liquid names and anything that

353
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 1: wasn't high quality within all that liquids. So the risk,

354
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, premium you're paying for that was pretty substantial

355
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 1: for for liquidity. So what we what we have today

356
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 1: is a private credit market that's grown from three billion,

357
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: it's over triple to one point one trillion today. Total

358
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 1: alternative assets today as of the end of last year

359
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 1: eight point nine trillion in a market where the combined

360
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,640
Speaker 1: fixed income and equity markets are two hundred and twenty

361
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 1: nine trillion. So alternatives as a whole are pretty small

362
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: in somebody's portfolio. Private credit is it's a one to

363
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 1: nine ratio in terms of total alternatives on a path

364
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: where we've tripled in size, over tripled in size since

365
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 1: eight oh nine. And what we see because of all

366
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 1: those dynamics, the banks retrenching the rotation into alternatives is

367
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 1: a ten to twelve percent kagger over the next five years.

368
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 1: So it's there's you know, we don't hear about it

369
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,199
Speaker 1: because it's relatively small, but it's it's a part of

370
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,199
Speaker 1: somebody's portfolio, and it's becoming increasingly more important. So you

371
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 1: mentioned the um thirty plus year bull market and fixed

372
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 1: income with rates falling from the early eighties and Paul

373
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 1: Vulcar down to close to zero. What was it the

374
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 1: bottom of the ten year about one something one two

375
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: one one. Uh. It appears that that thirty five year

376
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,959
Speaker 1: market is coming to an end, and we're looking at

377
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:46,160
Speaker 1: a combination of both rising inflation and higher rates. How

378
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,919
Speaker 1: what sort of challenges does that present to you working

379
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,239
Speaker 1: in credit markets where hey, maybe rates are going up,

380
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: maybe inflation is is going to impact our our real

381
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 1: adjusted returns. How do you figure that into your Yeah, well,

382
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: the early early returns are if you look at high yield,

383
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: it's down four year to date. That's relative to the

384
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: SMP five, down eight and a half percent year to date.

385
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: Leverage land exactly. Leverage loans are flat. Now why is that?

386
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: Because they're floating right zero like zero point five duration

387
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: versus a longer duration fixed income on. So right now,

388
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that the moving interest rates is impacting valuations, right,

389
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 1: it's not. There's not been a fundamental shifting credit yet.

390
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: Although default rates you'd imply with spreads right now that

391
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: default rates went from the end of year at one

392
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 1: point one to maybe one point to five, still very

393
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: very low skill. So I think the early returns are

394
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 1: um really indicative of interest rate moves, which, by the way,

395
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 1: we should have expected. I mean, I don't know how

396
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 1: long people thought the punch bowl was going to stay there,

397
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 1: but we couldn't believe we're going to stay at that

398
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: that level forever. So none of this is unexpected. I

399
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: think the shock of the moves is always I find

400
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: in the market unexpected by people, but it should have

401
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: been expected. So as you think about investing, if you

402
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: think about it from a return perspective, you've got that

403
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: hedge if you want to call it, against rising rates.

404
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: What we're not seeing yet, but this is what we

405
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: I think we get paid for is the credit impact

406
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: of a slowing economy with rising rates and inflation, and

407
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: that you know, That's where I think we moved from

408
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty one, which was I would say

409
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 1: arguably a macro focus trade, if you want to call

410
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: it that, even though we're long term investors, to very

411
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: much focusing on the micro, which is security selection and

412
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: portfolio construction. Because the one thing I've learned in thirty

413
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: one years. Is the only thing that's protected us ever

414
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: coming out of like a massive disruption in the marketplace

415
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 1: is a high quality, diversified portfolio. So that's how we're

416
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: focused today. Inflation isn't is not so much where we

417
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: think rates go in terms of how I think about it,

418
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: it's how does it impact the companies that we are

419
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: lending to. So, for instance, we have a company recently

420
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: um they call it like a staple food provider, white

421
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: label it, and the biggest cost to them is the

422
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: inputs of the food obviously gone up dramatically. We're our

423
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 1: concern was was were they able to pass that on

424
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: to the distributor large distributors you could think of of

425
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: of food in in the United States, And the answer

426
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 1: is they were, okay, So that's a good thing. What

427
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: we're trying to do is look at portfolios were that

428
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: ability to pass on costs or absorb costs is greater

429
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: than things that are more sensitive to it, because we

430
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 1: know that's going to hurt margins and EBITA growth, and

431
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: that's that's what we're focused on right now as we

432
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: think about inflation, not so much out it in effects

433
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: interest rates. So that's interesting you're you're using that as

434
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: a single example, because when I was learning about what

435
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,239
Speaker 1: you do with Carlisle, you know, sometimes I look at

436
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: a particular manager and they're all about the selection. Other

437
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: times and I'm gonna throw this to you, it's more

438
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: about creating a platform that they can um opera raid

439
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: off of, as opposed to being so focused on the

440
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: granular single company selection. Tell us a little bit about

441
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: the platform that you helped develop at Carlisle. Yeah, our

442
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: platform approach is really informed by my time at c

443
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: p P I B and what I learned there, where

444
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: they were agnostic to product in silos. They were simply

445
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: seeking at the best adjusted risk adjusted returns. And if

446
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: you looked at the old days of oh eight oh nine,

447
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: things are very silent, high yield leverage, loans, distress maybe

448
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: special sits, but they were very specialized. And what we learned,

449
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: or I learned at least with my team at cpp

450
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: I B, is by having a broad platform that could

451
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: connect to the information flows coming in from the public

452
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: market side, coming in from the private equity side, you know,

453
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: coming in from our infrastructure and real estate, helped inform

454
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: opportunities and allowed us to move three cycles to where

455
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: those opportunities were. So, for example today at Carlisle, what

456
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: we were able to do is as we were going

457
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: into we're obviously working across the platform and direct lending

458
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: an opportunitisy to credit, not really need to stress doing

459
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: really regular way performing deals. And when the market dislocated

460
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: in April, March and April, it felt like eight o

461
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: nine again, and we were able to go immediately to

462
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: the secondary market and deploying the leverage loan market where

463
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: things were trading off dramatically. So Charted Communications trading at

464
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: seventy two, I didn't need to be a genius when

465
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: I looked at the market cap of chart Communications Trading

466
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: at seventy two to recognize I'm probably gonna get my

467
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: money back, right. So if you don't have a platform

468
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: that allows you to pivot, you can't take advantage of that.

469
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: So what we've done deliberately is have this cross platform

470
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: approach both in products set expertise, but geographically so that

471
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: we can swing to where those opportunities are. So, for instance,

472
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: in the past i'd say six months, we've seen a

473
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities coming out of Europe because the US

474
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: capital markets tend to hear themselves a lot quicker and

475
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: stabilize quicker. Europe because of the multiple different jurisdictions, tends

476
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: to take a little bit longer. We're looking into Asia,

477
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: we see opportunities, they're evolving. If you don't have a

478
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: broad platform that's connected globally, it's very hard to take

479
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: advantage of those opportunities to swing your capital to where

480
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: those opportunities are really, really quite interesting. Let's talk a

481
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: little bit about the state of credit today. You mentioned

482
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: global credit um generally has grown. You've grown your platform

483
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: um to seventy three billion dollars as of the end

484
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: of one that's about two x what it was four

485
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: years ago. Uh, and it's one of Carlisle's fastest growing segments.

486
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what you're doing in

487
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: terms of fundraising and how much of this is performance related. Well,

488
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: you can't raise What I've learned is you can't raise

489
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: money without performance. So one figure one that gets the other.

490
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: I would say that what we're what we're wanting to

491
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: do is I think that the thing that's really important

492
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: as we've build up the platform is a lot of

493
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: people say, you know, why do you why does scale matter?

494
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: Will scale matters because it allows you to take advantage

495
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: of the best opportunities on a global basis. So we

496
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: want to be scalable so that we can do any

497
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 1: transaction that we want to do globally period and that

498
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: was the goal of getting to scale seventy billion, eighty billion,

499
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: ninety billion, like you're in the snack bracket where you

500
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: can do any transaction you want and being very selective.

501
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: What that also leads to is that you know, each

502
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: successor fund more people want to participate. So that is

503
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: an ongoing growth trajectory that we just deal with. If

504
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: you have poor performance, well guess what, people don't want

505
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: to participate in your funds. So far, Touch would In

506
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: the six years that I've been involved, our performance has

507
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: been I think very good. But the most important thing,

508
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: and I said this before, is that we're there to

509
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: deliver an expected exposure into somebody's portfolio, consistent and persistent

510
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: through time, and that is something you demonstrate over time

511
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: and so far, I think with the team that's there,

512
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: which is excellent by the way they have been delivering

513
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: those returns over the past six years, even through the pandemic,

514
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: which is really important. I think the next twelve to

515
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: twenty four months. You know we're gonna we're gonna have

516
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: some challenges. Everybody's gonna have challenges, and but I think

517
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: that the portfolios are well positioned for that. But what

518
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: it also means is when we talk to our investors

519
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: is they need to invest capital like that doesn't stop

520
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: just because the markets are volatile um and people are

521
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: rotating more into private credits you and I discussed earlier,

522
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: and so we're seeing that growth. So we're trying to

523
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: balance our growth versus what the opportunity said is. And

524
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: the one thing I had learned from my prior life

525
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: is that you know there is a certain growth trajectory

526
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: that if you get beyond that and I almost had

527
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 1: infinite capital at my prior job, but you don't have

528
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: infinite opportunities, and so you have to continually build the

529
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: team in the platform that allows you to scale into

530
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: the opportunity set to be able to prosecute if you

531
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: can't esecute it, and then you may end up in

532
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: a not a good place for your investors. And so

533
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: we're very thoughtful about that. But the programs that we've

534
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: built out have scaled mostly because we've been able to

535
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: do those larger size transactions and control them on the

536
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: front end. And I think, you know, we'll continue to

537
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: to to leverage into those programs that we're being very successful.

538
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: So you raise a really interesting point, which is there

539
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: is only so far this can potentially scale. You were

540
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: talking seven. I'm assuming that this can scale up some

541
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: multiple of that. How large can private credit grow um

542
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: even though it's such a relatively tiny portion of overall

543
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: investable assets? Uh, where's the ceiling? Well, I don't I

544
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: don't don't know if I can predict the ceiling, but

545
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: I can tell you that our forecasts and belief is

546
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: that it's it's growing at at least ten to twelve

547
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: percent cager pery, or from a one point one trillion

548
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: dollar base today. Right. I know it sounds ridiculous to

549
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: say from that relatively mole base of just a trillion dollars,

550
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: but in the grand scheme and thing, But if you

551
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: think it's a percent of global asset, but if you

552
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: think about it's very small part of a global ass

553
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: that you're absolutely rights. But if you think about the participants,

554
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: even the largest participants aren't greater than a hundred and

555
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: fifty I mean, that sounds like a lot, I know,

556
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: but in the context of that that there's not like

557
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: a clustering at the very top yet. So I think,

558
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, we're going to grow with at least the

559
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: market obviously, you know, stakeholders would like us to grow

560
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: beyond that. I think if we do that in a

561
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: very thoughtful, deliberate way, that's fine. The other thing we pursued,

562
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: which is slightly different than maybe some of our peers,

563
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: is we do have that three pillar approach across multiple strategies.

564
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: So any of those strategies in and themselves can scale

565
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: to ten or twenty billion, but if you you know,

566
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: took that in totality across the platform, that adds up

567
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: to a lot of money to manage, right, And so

568
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: what we've really purposely tried to do is say, where

569
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: are those veins that we think will expand infrastructure, real estate, credit, aviation,

570
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, corporate credit as a whole, obviously liquid credit.

571
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: You know today if you look at the leverage loan market,

572
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: it's one point five trillion. It was less much less

573
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 1: three to four times what it wasn't two thou two

574
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: thousand and nine. So you know, we're trying to see

575
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 1: in those large markets where there's scale and we can

576
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: scale along with it. So I'm going to circle back

577
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: to infrastructure and leverage loans. I want to refer to

578
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: something that you guys said on your fourth quarter conference call,

579
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: which was, as a firm, we expect to see Global

580
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: Credit have a breakout year in um given all the

581
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: turmoil we've seen and potentially rising rate environment in the

582
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: face of inflation. Why should we expect to be a

583
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: breakout year for Global Credit? Well, twofold one is I

584
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: think you know that operating platform I talked about is

585
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: in place, and so once you you put the operating

586
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: structure in place, from an an investment in origination perspective,

587
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it really does allow you to scale and

588
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: be much more efficient. So that's that's point one. We

589
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: have multiple avenues when we raise capital. We've got c Tech,

590
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: which is a which is a retail product that goes

591
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 1: cuts across our entire platform, and that is very attractive

592
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: for investors where they're getting, you know, a very current

593
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: cash dividend and a high single digits and that feeds

594
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: into our business. But then you've got these new verticals

595
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: that you and I've talked about on the real asset side,

596
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: which are growing probably faster than I would have thought

597
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: because people are find that extremely interesting from a portfolio

598
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: construction perspective. But then lastly, on the opportunity side, the

599
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: volatility is a good thing for us because, as you

600
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: and I talked about earlier, our ability to swing across

601
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: the platform and take advantage of opportunities. Volatility is actually

602
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: UM creates vast opportunity that was difficult I would say

603
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: pre pandemic, and pre pandemic we were in a you know,

604
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: pretty well priced market. We thought UM where it was

605
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: it was tough, tough sledding for opportunities and very competitive.

606
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: And now UM companies that would typically have access to

607
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: the capital markets who may have more complicated story you

608
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: get one speed bump in the market and some negative sentiment.

609
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: There's still good companies in the long term. We're allowed,

610
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, we were allowed to kind of go in

611
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: and do the work on a more complex situation and

612
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: do that work that the capital markets won't do because

613
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: they don't have access that information. And it creates opportunity

614
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: for us. And and so we're always say excited, but

615
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: we've been looking for some volatility in the marketplace UM

616
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: for quite some time, and we're starting to see it.

617
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: So I was kind of impressed with how selective you

618
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: are in terms of originations, really close on relatively few,

619
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: something like five percent of the companies you put through

620
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: their paces. Tell us a little bit about that process,

621
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: and is it just a target rich environment and you're

622
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: taking the cream off the top or why so few

623
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: UM actual closes given given you know, how many opportunities

624
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: you see worldwide. Well, it's it's like anything right you

625
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: want to have from the top level. The platform just

626
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: really opens up a very broad funnel for opportunities. And

627
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: and as a result of that, when you're in the market,

628
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: you're scaled, you're known in the market, you get a

629
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities and they're coming in. You know, I say, left, right,

630
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,959
Speaker 1: and center, but it feels like that. Sometimes what we're

631
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: looking to do is to pull together the most high quality,

632
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: diverse portfolios that we can that we believe will weather

633
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: through you know, three cycles. And so as a result

634
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: of that, you know, we do have to be very

635
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: selective as to what we're gonna put in there, and

636
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: we also have to be thoughtful about the exposures right

637
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: when you think about portfolio construction, there's kind of three things,

638
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: right their security selection, you know you're picking that asset

639
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna put in there. That's the micro. There's portfolio construction,

640
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: making sure you have a well balanced portfolio that's not

641
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: highly correlated because that's not the exposure our investors are

642
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: looking for. And then you you tilt those exposures depending

643
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: on some conviction you may have. I think in this environment,

644
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: the first two are really the most important. Tilts can

645
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: can wipe out the first two very easily. So we

646
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: tend not to have tilts. We tend to have well

647
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: balanced portfolios that we believe the weather through um volatility

648
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: in the market, which we think we're going to see

649
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: more of in the next twelve to twenty four months,

650
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: really really really interesting. So so let's talk about Carlisle.

651
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: UM in general, you guys have been on a torrid

652
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: asset raising pace. You've been breaking categories, as has private

653
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: credit also, so you're in the right place at the

654
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: right time. Um, why is this so hot right now?

655
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: Is it just as simple as there is no alternative?

656
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: Yields are so low on the fixed income so I

657
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: it and you guys can deliver consistent returns without a

658
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: whole lot of risk and volatility. Aka, you step back

659
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: and think about it from the average institutional investor and

660
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: what they're trying to achieve, and you know it'll it'll vary,

661
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: but let's use this as a starting point. Let's let's

662
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: assume that on average, most institutional investor over the long

663
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: terms trying to achieve seven percent for the beneficiaries in

664
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: a call it, you know, a negative real rate environment

665
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: with you know, equity returns have been I think fifteen

666
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: percent over the since O nine roughly. If you get

667
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: thirteen plus last year plus something like that, Well, where

668
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: where is your long term forecast for equity? I mean

669
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people would probably tell you public equity

670
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: long term forecast is probably in the six to seven

671
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: percent range, maybe lower, I don't know. You do the

672
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: math on that over a ten year horizon, it's very

673
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: hard to get seven percent. So you take six percent,

674
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: five percent from public equity, and you add in two

675
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: percent from fixed income, and you blended itself. And you've blended.

676
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: That's the secret. You can't average and you got it.

677
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: Got to add them and that's how you get to

678
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 1: see that they didn't teach that math in Canada. Maybe

679
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: that's maybe how our education system was different. That that's

680
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: the that's the problem with expected returns is we've been

681
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: hearing forecasted lower expecteds. Hey, markets are high, valuations are high.

682
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: We've had to we long term returns or eight percent.

683
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: We've been thirteen. That was before last year's nearly pent

684
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: on the equity side. So you should ratch it down

685
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: your expectations after you hear that, so long, people sort

686
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: of stop paying attention to it. This is probably the

687
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: year where they should be paying attention. And I and

688
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: I think here's here's a good thing I think about

689
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: the institutional investor at large is that they generally are

690
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: pretty thoughtful and long term thinkers. I mean, I think

691
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: that you know, sometimes us on the manager side think

692
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: we have all the answers. But I would say they're

693
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: pretty smart people that are managing broad, diversified port folios.

694
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: And I and I believe what they recognize is as

695
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: a producier. You can't you hope isn't a strategy. You know,

696
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: I hope I keep getting the same returns in public equities.

697
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: That's a great that's a great thought. But I don't

698
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: know if that delivers. And so what people have been

699
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: doing is there is a trend, demonstrable trend of putting

700
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: some of your cash if you can be liquid, into alternatives,

701
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: private equity, real estate, credit, infrastructure, and that trend is

702
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: just going to continue as we continue to be in

703
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: this lower rate environment. I know rates are going up,

704
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,479
Speaker 1: but like historically, they're still very low, and I could

705
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: they could go up, you know, four or five increases

706
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: and you're still historically low. Yes, I mean, do you

707
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: remember when library was like six percent? Yeah? I do.

708
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: I remember when my parents had a mortgage that was

709
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: eighteen percent. So I remember when my father in law's

710
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: New York City General obligation bonds from the seventies that

711
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: we're yielding eight came up and he said, what can

712
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: you get me? Like, I could get you six percent

713
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: in you and four percent in unis or six percent

714
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: you know, longer term bonds. He's like six percent? Who

715
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: the hell wants six percent? And that was I don't know,

716
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. So and you would you'd kill for

717
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: that right now? Six percent? Oh my goodness, how do

718
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: I get six percent? Yeah? I remember, as off topic,

719
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: but I remember I was I was talking to a

720
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: guy who asked me, said, you know, I'm looking at

721
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: these Ontario zero coupons at like, what do you think

722
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: I said, Oh, I think they're going to go higher.

723
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: I would buy them. He didn't work out. Well, he

724
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: didn't buy him, and he's mad at me to this day.

725
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: So anyway, but but you know, you go back to

726
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: this and you and you say to yourself, why is

727
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: it these really smart institutional investors? Right? They're not? You know,

728
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: they are smart people who are are investing money on

729
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: behalf of a lot of people rotating into alternatives. And

730
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: and the singular reason is is because they're looking for

731
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: a pickup in a liquidity that they're getting from being

732
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: in that asset class. And my prior employers, C P, P,

733
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: I B they recognize because of the long live of

734
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: the asset base for them, which is they looked seventy

735
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: five years forward. You could be a hundred percent equities

736
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: if you wanted to be. Now, the volatility of that

737
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: I don't think stakeholders could handle, but today they're there.

738
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: Allocation is equities. So if you can layer on top

739
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: of that, alternatives would give you a premium and you

740
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: can bear the whether the volatility, then actually you're probably

741
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: gonna return more for your beneficiaries than if you just

742
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: stayed in public assets. But I think a lot of

743
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: investors forget the illiquidity premium is there for a reason,

744
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: and if you don't have a need for that liquidity,

745
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: you're effectively getting a discount in public fixed income markets.

746
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: So if you don't need that liquidly, why not take

747
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: the additional hundreds of two hundred bases points and returns correct.

748
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 1: And I think that that's that is what you're seeing,

749
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: and that's what you're driving it right now. I mean,

750
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: the conversations we have with institutional investors with consultants today

751
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: is very much in that vein, which is, you can

752
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: afford to have this much of alloquidity in your portfolio,

753
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: you should tuck that away, and you should pick up

754
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: that illiquidity premium. And and there's other you know, all

755
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: the academic studies say there's illiquidity, there's complexity, and there's

756
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: a lot of other things in there. But you know,

757
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: when you can pick up a hundred to five basis points,

758
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: which is kind of the range, that's pretty attractive, especially

759
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: relative to under two points on on a tenure. So

760
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: So back to the question on scale, where does this

761
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: top top out? Are we still very early days in

762
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: the growth of all these different types of private credit transactions.

763
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: The way I maybe think about it in terms of

764
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: growth is there's there's over one point three trillion of

765
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: dry powder and private equity today, and it's probably much

766
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: higher than that, and there's a lot of people out

767
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: there raising money. If you think about how much financing

768
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: that will drive, that drives at least another multiple of it,

769
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: right two to three times. You know, two point six

770
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: billion trillion plus of just financing there alone. And that's

771
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: just in the biout market. That doesn't include any corporate activity.

772
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: That doesn't include um, you know, other special situations that

773
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: you know, we just don't even account for in that number.

774
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: So I think the growth is really driven by the

775
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: fact that the third thing that we didn't talk about

776
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: is the number of public companies today is about half

777
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: of what it was over ten years ago. There's more

778
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: companies stay in private for longer. I don't know if

779
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: the whole spack thing is going to change that a bit,

780
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: although the run on that's not been great, but I

781
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: would say people are staying in private for longer and

782
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: as a result of that, the need for our capital

783
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: is greater than it probably was ten or fifteen years ago.

784
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: So I I think the tail winds are there for

785
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, the next five plus years for sure. So

786
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: so let's drill down to different types of of UM credit. Uh.

787
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: And you mentioned infrastructure investments as a sizeable piece of

788
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: the portfolio. Uh, let's talk a little bit about infrastructure.

789
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: What areas are you investing in? Walk us through the

790
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: typical credit investment in in infratray. Yeah. Well, infrastructure as

791
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: a as a strategy kind of came to me really

792
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: from my experience at c P P I B where

793
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: when I was running the infrastructure equity business, I looked

794
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: at where the credit financing was coming from, even though

795
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: we're putting equity in and a lot of the deals

796
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: where we would put twenty to equity and required massive

797
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 1: amounts of credit. Now banks generally would provide a lot

798
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: of that. US banks don't provide anything to infrastructure, very little.

799
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: They it's just not something because of the long term

800
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: nature of it. Canadian banks to a decent amount, but

801
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: guess what, there's not that many Canadian banks, and then

802
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: the Europeans. But then with some of the financial regulations

803
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: that limited how long that duration could be. So my

804
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: thought was always going to be that the capital markets

805
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: would become a more relevant part of infrastructure finance, and

806
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: that was kind of the thesis. So when I came

807
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: to Carlisle, what I started with on day one is

808
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: I want to find a team that could help build

809
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: out that business. And we found a very very experienced

810
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: individual and who had worked at a number of places

811
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: on the infrastructure side, most recently black Rock and UM

812
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: He had been very successful and built up a very

813
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: very large portfolio. So we hired him and we've been

814
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: building out this business and I can see this being

815
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: a very substantial part of our overall portfolio going forward,

816
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: tent of our overall portfolio, and there's such a great

817
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: need for it. So when you think about what does

818
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: that mean specifically, I mean they're really I would say,

819
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: assets that have an underlying rate or regulatory charge that

820
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: allows you to have more confidence in the stability of

821
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: the return on that asset than you would in a

822
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: normal corporate asset. And as a result of that, they

823
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: can also be longer duration, and a lot of insurance companies,

824
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: for instance, who are trying to match duration. Look at

825
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: these assets and see them as being very valuable and

826
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: a diversify in your overall corporate portfolio. And when we

827
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: talk about infrastructure assets, so we're talked me about ports

828
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: and rails and partways or rails, um, transit energy, transportation, pipelines, pipelines. Yeah, um,

829
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: it could be transmission lines, it could be toll roads.

830
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: I mean it has various natures. But anything where there

831
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: is an overriding charge to use that asset that is

832
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: disassociated with the price or volume that's going through, it

833
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: makes sense. We talked about aviation as a hard asset,

834
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: but we really didn't get into real assets. Let's let's

835
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about real estate and what you're

836
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: seeing in that space. Yeah, I think in real estate

837
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: right now, what is really really interesting to us is

838
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: uh and it was you know, as a result of

839
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: some of the dislocation we're seeing is really in the

840
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: opportunistic real estate space. So we're we're providing you know,

841
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: mezzanine and sort of um completion capital if you will.

842
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: You know, the banks are very efficient further up the

843
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: capital stack and can provide that, but it's really that

844
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: completion capital and we're seeing that in very unique and

845
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: interesting assets. I think the ice Star asset that we

846
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: just announced several weeks ago is interesting to us because

847
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: of the triple net least component really is underlying credit

848
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: and it's a very diversified portfolio between commercial, office and entertainment.

849
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: And I read those about three billion dollars three billion,

850
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: and it's it's a business we want to grow. So

851
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: there's a team there that's well known to us, an

852
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: asset base that's well known to us. UM. Roger Cozy,

853
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 1: who we hired, actually used to work at I Star

854
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: and helped develop that original portfolio. So we're we're quite

855
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: excited about that in our ability to grow that over time. Uh.

856
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 1: And as as as as everything we try to grow into,

857
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: we wanted to be a ten billion dollar plus type

858
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: business because that gives us a scale advantage. Huh. And

859
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: we haven't really talked about distressed assets, which I would imagine,

860
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: having worked your way through on O eight oh nine

861
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: must have been a another target rich in environment. Yeah.

862
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 1: I think the stress has has gone through an evolution. UM.

863
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: I believe if you think about distress twenty years ago, UM,

864
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: there's fewer people doing it. I think that the the

865
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: efficiency was it was a less efficient market. Fewer participants

866
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: made it less efficient. So there are you know, bigger

867
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: outsized excess returns to make. I think today, given there's

868
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: a larger number of participants with a lot of cash,

869
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: it makes it less efficient. Uh, and it makes it

870
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: less scalable quite frankly, Um, there's a lot of crowding

871
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: around the larger opportunities, so and everybody piles into them.

872
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: And then if you look at um, the smaller opportunities

873
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: are just really hard. I liken it to uh private

874
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: equity light. I mean, really, if you do true distress

875
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: for control or you're gonna take over a company, you

876
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: really have to have a post acquisition value creation plan,

877
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: which is really private equity. You've got to you know,

878
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: run the board, you've gotta you know, oversee the management team,

879
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: and you've got a great value. Uh. And that look,

880
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: I think our private equity guys do that really really well.

881
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: I think credit people are okay at it um, but

882
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: I think we're probably more interested in what we've been

883
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: doing lately, which I would call structured equity minority equity opportunities,

884
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: which give you kind of that higher return something that

885
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call opportunistic where we're in that mid mid

886
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: team type range, but higher higher return perhaps with some

887
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, higher risk of course, but where we're working

888
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: with really good companies and really good management teams, where

889
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: we have really good governance structures, but we don't have control.

890
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: So so what does structured equity actually mean. Is this

891
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: a sort of hybrid of equity And it could be

892
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: a minority interest position. We've got one where we have

893
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: a we have a minority interest position where we have

894
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: some downside protection in terms of excess collateral and the shares.

895
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: So that to me is, you know, we've limited a

896
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: bit of our upside, but we've also taken a big

897
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: cushion on the downside. It could be prefect equity that's

898
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: deeper into the capital structure than we normally would do

899
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: um because of some views that we have on the company.

900
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: When you say deeper, you mean lower in who gets

901
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: paid in banquet? Correct? Correct? You know, like through through

902
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: the capital structure, where we've created at a much lower

903
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: area in the capital structure. The other thing I would

904
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: I would say, what makes us gives us an advantage

905
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: there to a great degree is being integrated with Carlisle

906
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: as a global platform, and I think that's the one

907
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: thing that really turns the wheel for our platform today

908
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 1: is that connectivity with Carlisle, who has been in business

909
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: for over thirty years, owning companies, realizing on them on

910
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: a global basis, boots on the ground not only in

911
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: the US, Europe, but Asia in particular, which is a

912
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: great growth area I think for us UH and having

913
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: that experience and experience with management teams, countries and companies,

914
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,479
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's unbelievable how much origination it helps

915
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: us with. But also when we're making an investment, the

916
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: different points of intersection that we can get from our

917
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: colleagues in the private equity side, it's kenn and put

918
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 1: a price on that. The the complementary nature of marrying

919
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: global credit to private equity seems to be, Hey, how

920
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: come we didn't do this before? It really seems to

921
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: have worked out nicely for you guys. Yeah. There, we're like,

922
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: think of us as solution providers, right, Like I mean,

923
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: if you're a management team, you're and you're looking to expand,

924
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: you either sell control equity or you look for some

925
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: sort of structured solution. You come to Carlisle. You can

926
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: go to our biogroup it does control equity, or you

927
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: can come to our group and we will do some

928
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: sort of structured solution that will help you achieve your

929
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: growth objectives. As a combination. That's a powerful outcome because

930
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: you get all the benefits of both those groups in

931
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: one package to help those teams grow. Right. Really, if

932
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: no matter what your needs are, and I don't want

933
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: to sound like I'm doing a commercial for you, you you know,

934
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: not at all, but but you can. But it seems

935
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: like there it's kind of amazing to think back ten

936
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: twenty years ago when in a lot of private equity

937
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: shops nobody was thinking in terms of credit. And really

938
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: it makes in hindsight, it makes perfect sense to marry

939
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: you know, It's like marrying a fixed income and equity together.

940
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And I think

941
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: look culturally as an organization. I mean, we didn't talk

942
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: about this, but culture matters a lot. And culture matters

943
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 1: a lot to me. I mean, I left a great

944
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: organization with a great culture and I'm not you know,

945
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: I'm not at the beginning of my career. So I

946
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: need to go to a place where I thought the

947
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: culture is gonna fit for me, and Carlisle is a

948
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: very collaborative, very supportive environment. Is known as a good

949
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: partner in the marketplace, and that's that's worth a lot.

950
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: So when you're talking to a management team, you bring

951
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: that with you and they know if they're dealing with

952
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: Carlisle Global Credit or Carlisle Private Equity, they're getting that

953
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: same partnership approach, and that's extremely valuable, especially when you're

954
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: in competition for assets. So so let's talk a little

955
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: bit about that for a second. And I'm not asking

956
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: the name names, but who are your your clients? What

957
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: sort of entities are Carlyle's clients? Who who do we

958
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: think of? Um? Are they? Are they pension funds? Are they? Yeah?

959
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: I mean at amends? What what sorts? What sort of

960
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: entities are carlisles Claus Sure I would say that, Um,

961
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, we have all the traditional institutional investors in

962
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: anybody else is going to have. You're gonna have your

963
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: traditional state pension plans. You're gonna have your you know,

964
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: non Canadian or sorry, non US pension plans, whether that

965
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: be in Canada or Europe or Australia. You're gonna have

966
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: sovereign wealth funds, which are a big component of that.

967
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: And you're gonna have insurance companies. I mean, those would

968
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 1: be the major institutional side. Then we've got high net worth.

969
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: Really yeah. High net worth is for us in credit

970
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: in particular, that's a growing How do you define high

971
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 1: net worth because every entity has a different line fift yeah,

972
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: I mean I don't so much define it as to

973
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: how much they have, but as how big of a ticket.

974
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: And for for now we go all the way down

975
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: to where I think we can take tickets in that

976
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: are as low as ten thousand dollars really yeah, yeah,

977
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: uh so, I know I only have you for a

978
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: limited amount of time. Let's jump to our favorite questions.

979
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: Ask all of our guests all starting with let's talk

980
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: about what what you were doing to keep yourself entertained

981
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: during lockdown? What were you watching? Streaming, listening, streaming? Okay, well,

982
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: the two things that I one i've finished and one

983
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm still watching. One is called it's called the Bureau

984
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: or the Bureau, which is it's subtitles, but it's French

985
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:38,439
Speaker 1: and it's really about the French intelligence agency and their

986
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: operations in the Middle East and um Northern Africa, and

987
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: it's fascinating because of you know, really, what you do

988
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: is you have these relatively normal people leading these clandestine

989
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: lives to affect change and all the complications that go

990
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: with it, and it's you know, it's complicated, but it's subtle.

991
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: It's it's really worth watching. It's probably the best thing

992
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: I have watched in a long time. Really, these five

993
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: seasons fantastic, the one, the other and the other one.

994
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: And listen. I'm even though I'm Canadian and I did

995
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: take French for twelve years, I'm really not proficient at it.

996
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: So I do read. I watch these with subtitles Call

997
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: my Agent fantastic hilarious. So so every time I discussed

998
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: call my Agent with friends, I always have to tell

999
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: them in France it's called ten, not called called my Agent.

1000
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: And all of the actors playing actors are actually the

1001
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: very famous French actors that if you're an American you

1002
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: may or may not recognize them. Um, but that was

1003
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: such a great show. I really enjoyed. I've not done

1004
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: it yet, but I quite enjoy It's my fun place

1005
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: to go. So so I'm gonna check out the bureau

1006
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 1: and you're already onto ont call my agent. UM, let's

1007
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: talk about mentors who helped to shape your career. Yeah,

1008
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: I I would call them mentor facilitators if you which

1009
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: were people who not so much mentored me, but but

1010
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: put pushed me in certain directions. And I'd say the

1011
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: one there's probably three of them, and the one who

1012
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: initially think of as a guy, Tim Hodson and him

1013
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: and I worked at Tim and I worked at Golden Sacks.

1014
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 1: He was the CEO of Golden Sacks Canada for a while.

1015
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: He's he's now the chair of Ontario Hydro one I

1016
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: believe called the utility up in Canada. Now. He's also

1017
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: on the board of PSP, which is the UM the

1018
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: sister pension plan to c p P I B. So

1019
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: he you know, he's a great guy and he really

1020
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: um pushed me to do different things. He actually is

1021
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,399
Speaker 1: the person who encouraged me to go to c PP

1022
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: I B. But I think the biggest thing he did

1023
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,959
Speaker 1: for me is give me perspective. And I think that's

1024
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: especially when you're younger. I think you need that in

1025
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: perspective and some empathy. I put yourself in somebody else's

1026
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: shoes and replay back what you said to that person

1027
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: or how you act in that situation, and that that

1028
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: had profound impact on how I operate today. And and

1029
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: I give him a lot of credit for things that

1030
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: I've been able to do in my career. The other one,

1031
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: the other two people are really UM David Dennis and

1032
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: who's a former CEO c p P I B, and

1033
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: Mark Wiseman, who who became the the CEO c p

1034
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,359
Speaker 1: P I B. And they they stood behind me at

1035
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: a time when I started a private credit business during

1036
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: the financial crisis of oh eight oh nine. They bought

1037
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: into that long term strategy that I had UM not

1038
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: dissimilar to the platform approach we have here today at

1039
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: Carlisle and UH at a time where we're going through

1040
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 1: the deepest, what we thought was the deepest, darkest crisis

1041
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: we've ever seen. UH, they got behind me and and

1042
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: rallied board support to get that program going and really

1043
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: gave me the lane way to do what was what

1044
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: turned out to be a very successful program for c

1045
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: p P I B. And then finally I would say, UM,

1046
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: you know my current boss, Quson Lee. UH, he kind

1047
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,479
Speaker 1: of found me at a time where I was really

1048
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: considering UM starting my own fund and uh and somehow

1049
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: found me just before I had left to start my

1050
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: own fund and convinced me to come to Carlisle, uh

1051
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 1: and really gave me again the lane way, the opportunity

1052
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: to build what we've done so far, and we've got

1053
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: a lot more to do. But I but I I

1054
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, I think they're facilitators in many respects. They've

1055
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: they've listened to what I've had to say and given

1056
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: me some guidance, but but more or less have cleared

1057
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: the lanes to to allow me to do what I

1058
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: think is the right thing to get to business going

1059
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: really really quite interesting. Let's talk about books. What are

1060
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: some of your favorites? What are you what are you reading? Right?

1061
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: You know what books are like music? To me? I

1062
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: listened everything right, So I listened to rap, I listened

1063
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: to nineties rock, I listened to pop, I listened to jazz,

1064
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: I listened to classical and country, and like, you can't

1065
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: really pin me down. And books are kind of the same.

1066
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: I go through periods where I want to understand something,

1067
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: so um, some of the greats I was just thinking

1068
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: about it before I came in here were you know,

1069
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: as we moved to the U S. I didn't do

1070
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: a lot of US history, so I read a lot

1071
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: about you know, U S history. So some of the

1072
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: ones that stand out, Team of Rivals, doors, good and fantastic.

1073
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: Um ron Cher now has got some great books. I

1074
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: read Alexander Hamilton's before it became like a play, and

1075
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: I thought, how do you make a play out of that?

1076
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: But like, fantastic book on somebody who was so prolific

1077
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:13,439
Speaker 1: in a very short period of time and had such

1078
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: a large, profound impact on America. I think that's fascinating. Grant.

1079
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you know chur Now another one there where

1080
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: you know there's a flawed man who who had his

1081
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: moment in history. Uh, you know, fantastic. And then you know,

1082
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: just recently I read, uh, Ladies and gentlemen, the Bronx

1083
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: is Burning, which is uh, you know, politics, sports and

1084
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: sort of merging New York in nineteen seventy seven, where

1085
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: you had the Yankees, Reggie Jackson, you had the mayor race,

1086
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: and you had you know, the Blackouts of nineteen seventy seven,

1087
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: a cross all five boroughs. I mean, it's fascinating, So

1088
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: I really I really enjoy those things. And then I

1089
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: love reading about people who who are flawed but have achieved,

1090
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, in history great things. So Churchill, for instance, Um,

1091
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, I read the Robert Carol book recently, The

1092
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: Power Broker, which is like massive but like you know,

1093
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: power crops, absolute, power crops, absolutely, And and now I'm

1094
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm in the process of reading Partying the Waters, which

1095
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: is at Taylor Branch book on on Martin Luther King

1096
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: sort of in the early civil rights movement. So I

1097
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: like a lot of different things. Which Churchill book will you?

1098
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: I think the best ones if you want to read,

1099
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: if you just say I want to read one, the

1100
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: definitive ones are by Roy Jenkins, no relation to me.

1101
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: And then Andrew Roberts wrote one recently, and I think

1102
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: that one's a pretty good one. It has some new

1103
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,919
Speaker 1: material and really shows a flawed individual for sure, as

1104
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: we all are, not all of us accomplished. What what

1105
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: folks like Churchill did? Um, let's talk about advice. What

1106
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: would you tell a recent college grad who was interested

1107
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: in a career in either credit or investment management? Yeah,

1108
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: I you know, I get this question a lot from

1109
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: junior people. They asked, what what should I do? And

1110
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: I think it applies to a lot of things, not

1111
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: just investment management. I think the biggest thing you can

1112
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: do is is to be obsessively curious, because if you're impassionate,

1113
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: if you're not curious about things like I don't know

1114
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: how you'll learn frankly, and so be early on. You

1115
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: have the ability to be curious in an uninhibited way

1116
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: because nobody expects you to know anything. I mean, you

1117
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 1: might be brilliant, you might have come out of great school,

1118
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: but nobody really expects you to know much. And so

1119
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: that's a great time to be curious about what you're

1120
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: interested in. Right. So, if it's finance, be curious about that.

1121
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 1: If it's investing, be curious about that and ask a

1122
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: lot of questions because that ultimately is what's going to

1123
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: drive you through. And a final question, what do you

1124
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: know about the world of credit and investing uh today

1125
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: that you wish you knew years ago or so when

1126
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: you were first starting out? Yeah, you know, I'd say

1127
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that I've I've come to realize is

1128
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: that um change is constant. Change is constant, and I

1129
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: think in investing we sometimes fall back on history, we

1130
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: fall back on what we know, but change is constant.

1131
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: Some people say it's circular, but I think it's it

1132
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: evolves as opposed to circular. And I think that change

1133
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: has increased dramatically in the thirty years that I've been

1134
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: involved in finance and investing, and if I had a

1135
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 1: thought about that, I think from an investing standpoint, it

1136
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: which some In some ways, it's influenced how I think

1137
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: about investing today compared to thirty years ago. For sure

1138
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: quite fascinating. Thanks Mark for being so generous with your time.

1139
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: We have been speaking with Mark Jenkins, managing director and

1140
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: head of Global Credit at Carlisle Group. If you enjoy

1141
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: this conversation, well be sure and check out any of

1142
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 1: the previous I don't know three nine we've had over

1143
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: the past eight years. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify,

1144
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 1: wherever you purchase your favorite podcasts. We love your comments,

1145
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast

1146
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. Sign up from my daily reads

1147
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: at Richaltz dot com. Follow me on Twitter at ritalts.

1148
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I did not thank the

1149
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: crack staff that helps put these conversations together each week.

1150
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: Sean Russo is my researcher. Paris Wald is my producer.

1151
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: Attika val Bronn is our project manager. Mark Siniscalci is

1152
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: my audio engineer. I'm Barry Ritalts. You've been listening to

1153
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.